Rex Heuermann's Plea, Fire Island Jane Doe and a DNA Breakthrough

Summary

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Criminally Obsessed

Rex Heuermann's Plea, Fire Island Jane Doe, and a DNA Breakthrough

Host: Ann Emerson
Guests: Kristen Thorne (WABC Investigative Reporter), Dr. David Mittleman (Othram, CEO)
Date: April 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode unpacks the seismic developments in the Gilgo Beach serial killer case—Rex Heuermann’s courtroom confession, the identification of Fire Island Jane Doe as Karen Vergata, and the groundbreaking DNA technology that was central to solving the case. Host Ann Emerson, joined by longtime case reporter Kristen Thorne and forensic genealogist Dr. David Mittleman, dives into how Heuermann’s guilty plea unfolded, the emotional impact on victims’ families, and the science behind the DNA breakthrough.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rex Heuermann’s Courtroom Confession and Plea Deal

[00:22–02:35]

• 8 Murders Admitted: In a packed Suffolk County courtroom, Rex Heuermann pled guilty to seven formal charges and voluntarily confessed to an eighth murder, that of Karen Vergata (Fire Island Jane Doe), whose identity was unknown for over 25 years.
• Matter-of-Fact Demeanor: Heuermann answered each charge directly and unemotionally, giving only sparse details.
  • Quote (Kristen Thorne, 04:09):

    “The judge, the Ray Tierney, the DA just went name by name saying, did you kill her? And every single time he said, yes, I did. And he looked right at the DA. Straight in the eye. But it wasn’t like he was cavalier about it or overly confident… It was like that matter of fact, I was watching him trying to figure out, where have I seen this demeanor before? And that was kind of the only thing I could equate it to.”

• Specifics of the Crimes: Heuermann admitted to using strangulation and, for at least three victims, luring them via burner phones and wrapping bodies in burlap.
• Unanswered Questions: Many gruesome details remain undisclosed, including aspects of victim dismemberment.

2. Courtroom Atmosphere & Public Presence

[03:04–05:47]

• Public & Press Attendance: Large crowds, including media and true crime enthusiasts, queued for hours. Overflow rooms were used, often offering a better view of the defendant’s reactions.
• Victims’ Families’ Presence: The families and Heuermann’s own ex-wife and daughter were present, but he made no eye contact—“He didn’t even look for them.”
• Quote (Ann Emerson, 05:47):

  “It’s unbelievable, you know…”

3. The Plea Deal & Its Ramifications

[06:29–09:36]

• Immunity on the 8 Murders: Under the plea, Heuermann cannot be charged with any new crimes related to these eight victims, even if new information arises.
• FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit Involvement: Heuermann is required to cooperate with the FBI’s Behavioral Analysis Unit (Quantico) for profiling and investigative insights into his psychology and possible involvement in other crimes.
• Speculation on More Victims/Other Cases: Other investigations can still proceed, as the plea does not prevent law enforcement from connecting Heuermann to additional cases.

4. Motive, Background, and Psychological Scrutiny

[12:04–15:13]

• Absence of Clear Motive: No confirmed motive; Heuermann’s background is “pretty normal” aside from bullying in youth.
  • Quote (Kristen Thorne, 12:29):

    “Nothing yet… For many years had been researching violent porn, had been looking at how to murder people. He’s… clearly a very disturbed individual.”

• Reflection on Law Enforcement Past Failures: Law enforcement’s initial mishandling of the case allowed Heuermann to prey on marginalized victims—mainly sex workers—who he believed would not be missed or searched for.
• Hope for FBI Profiling: Analysts hope future FBI work will yield insights into Heuermann’s psychology and criminal tactics.

5. Victims’ Families & Impact of the Plea

[17:01–19:00, 31:35–34:06]

• Mixed Emotions: Some family members expressed relief; their attorneys publicly stated support for the plea to clarify consensus and avoid ambiguity.
  • Quote (Asa Ellerup, 17:01):

    “And I am glad that this is over. As far as him pleading guilty, it took a big chunk of stress off of me and my family.”

• Anticipated Statements at Sentencing: Victim impact statements and possibly a statement by Heuermann are expected during the June 17th sentencing.

6. The Identification of Karen Vergata (Fire Island Jane Doe)

[17:26–19:33; 38:01–50:21]

• Background: Karen Vergata went missing in 1996; her remains were found in two locations years apart. She was not reported missing.
• Breakthrough via DNA Technology: Othram, led by Dr. David Mittleman, used advanced techniques to extract and sequence DNA from degraded skeletal remains, constructing a genetic genealogy profile.
  • Quote (David Mittleman, 38:01):

    “There was just no way to identify her by the time we got involved... All they had was skeletal remains. These remains were found on the beach. They had been sitting for decades.”

DNA Process Challenges

[44:10–46:24]

• Condition of Remains: Severely degraded; years exposed to elements and contaminated by bacterial and non-human DNA.
• Unique DNA Extraction: Othram’s proprietary methods succeeded where other labs failed, using minute or damaged DNA.
• Genetic Genealogy: Karen’s identity was confirmed by cross-referencing constructed family trees and direct one-to-one testing with living relatives.
  • Quote (David Mittleman, 46:24):

    “It was genetic genealogy and... a couple phone calls to family members and, and next thing you know... They put two and two together. And... at the end you confirm... by doing a direct one to one test between the person that you think is a relative and, and, and the DNA from the crime scene or from the remains.”

7. Ongoing Investigations & Unsolved Victims

[19:33–21:04; 47:32–48:47]

• Unresolved Cases: Bodies remain unidentified on Gilgo Beach (“Asian Doe” in particular), an effort is ongoing with advanced DNA methods.
  • Quote (Kristen Thorne, 19:33):

    “...DA said there are still bodies on that beach that need to be identified. And, yes, he said it several times.”

• Othram’s Work: Multiple cases in the region are under investigation for victim identification—not all necessarily related to Heuermann.

8. Focus on the Heuermann Family & Civil Lawsuit

[21:04–29:16]

• Asa Ellerup’s Statement: Heuermann’s ex-wife maintained disbelief in his guilt until his confession. She requests privacy and spotlights the real victims.
• Civil Lawsuit: Victoria Heuermann (daughter) and Asa are being sued by a victim’s grown son, alleging they should have known about Rex’s crimes. Their attorney strongly rejects these claims.
  • Quote (Attorney Bob Macedonio, 24:27):

    “Let me be absolutely clear... Rex human, and Rex human alone is responsible for these horrific crimes. Any suggestion that Asa Elareup or Victoria Heumann were involved is irresponsible.”

• Public Skepticism: The difficulty for some in believing that family members remained oblivious—exacerbated by the small, cluttered home.
• No Charges Against Family: Extensive evidence reviews found no involvement by Heuermann’s family.

9. Reflections on Public & True Crime Fandom

[34:17–36:39]

• Shift in Courtroom Culture: True crime enthusiasts and independent media are increasingly present at sensational trials, shaping the media landscape.
• Open Courts Encouraged: Emerson and Thorne emphasize the public’s right to attend proceedings and witness justice firsthand.

10. Final Thoughts & Looking Ahead

[36:39–51:04]

• Sentencing Preview: All eyes on June 17th for victim impact statements and possible Heuermann address.
• Complex Legacy: Decades-long investigations highlight both failures and extraordinary advances (DNA, genealogy). The families now have answers, though justice can never undo their losses.
  • Quote (Emerson, 51:04):

    “There is no one I would rather talk to as we sit here with this guilty plea. Kristen brought us into the courtroom and, and David took us behind the curtain to understand how this eighth victim, Karen Vergata, got her name back.”

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Heuermann's Confession:
  “...every single time he said, yes, I did... he looked right at the DA. Straight in the eye... matter of fact, like you order something at a restaurant and the server comes by the table and says, is that what you meant to order? And you say, yes, that is what I meant to order.”
  — Kristen Thorne [04:09]

• On the Family's Relief:
  “And I am glad that this is over. As far as him pleading guilty, it took a big chunk of stress off of me and my family.”
  — Asa Ellerup [17:01]

• On Breakthrough DNA Work:
  “Karen Vergata was never reported missing. How were you able to link her DNA to her family tree?... This was genetic genealogy.”
  — Ann Emerson & David Mittleman [46:12–46:24]

• On Unidentified Victims:
  “DA said there are still bodies on that beach that need to be identified. And, yes, he said it several times.”
  — Kristen Thorne [19:33]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:22] Heuermann pleads guilty, confesses to an eighth murder.
• [03:04] Courthouse atmosphere and overflow rooms.
• [06:47] Defendant demeanor and family in the courtroom.
• [08:51] FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit involvement.
• [15:13] Sentencing and expectations for family statements.
• [17:26] Karen Vergata/Fire Island Jane Doe’s identification.
• [19:33] Ongoing investigations and unidentified victims.
• [21:04] Asa Ellerup's statement, disbelief until confession.
• [23:31] Civil lawsuit against Heuermann's family explained.
• [38:01] Dr. David Mittleman (Othram) explains DNA breakthrough.
• [44:10] Technical details of degraded DNA analysis.
• [46:12] Genetic genealogy process described.
• [47:32] Ongoing DNA investigations in the Gilgo Beach area.
• [50:21] Reflections on the case’s decades-long legacy.

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Conclusion

This episode of Criminally Obsessed offers rich courtroom narrative, emotional landscapes of the victims’ families, and technical yet accessible insight into DNA breakthroughs that gave a name to an unidentified victim after 25 years. The hosts and guests grapple with the complexities of justice, the enduring wounds left by Heuermann’s crimes, and the ongoing pursuit of answers for the remaining anonymous victims. The sentencing on June 17th promises further closure and emotional reckoning for all involved.

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Transcript

[Ann Emerson]

Hi, everybody. I'm Ann Emerson, and this is Criminally Obsessed.

[David Mittleman]

This defendant walked among us play acting as a normal suburban dad, when in reality, all along, he was obsessively targeting innocent women for death. Today, he was exposed for exactly what he is.

[Kristen Thorne]

A sadistic, soulless, murderous monster.

[Ann Emerson]

Not only did Rex Heuermann admit he was the Gilgo beach serial killer in court, are you pleading guilty voluntarily and

[Kristen Thorne]

if you're on free will, yes.

[Ann Emerson]

He confessed to killing. Killing an eighth woman that he wasn't even connected to or charged with. Her name was Karen Vergata, also known as Fire Island Jane Doe. Her identity went unknown for more than 25 years until new DNA testing revealed exactly who she was. We're going to talk about how a lab in Texas was able to do that. But first, we wanted to know what it was like to see, hear, watch Rex Heuermann in court and how the families reacted to him finally taking responsibility for what he's done. Investigative reporter Kristen Thorne has been following the Gilgo beach murders for more than a decade. She was on the scene when remains were found, when Rex Heuerman was arrested, and now his guilty plea. Thanks, Kristen, for joining me. Right after this hearing. I mean, even though we knew, Kristen, that there was going to be a hearing, that. When did you find out that he was expected to plead guilty to. To these crimes?

[Kristen Thorne]

Yeah, this was about a week ago. But even like yesterday, we heard about the possibility that he was going to plead to an eighth murder. So that was a surprise today. So we went in knowing that, yes, it could be seven, by the way. I am sitting right outside the courthouse, which is where I am in my car. It's. It's finally quiet here. So we knew he was gonna plead guilty to the seven. And then when we heard yesterday that there could be an eighth, you know, we're all going through our notes and trying to figure out who it was, and we knew it was gonna be Karen Vergada because she really is exactly the type of victim that he sought out. Right. A young woman, a sex worker. And so he pled guilty to killing her, but he was not formally charged. That was part of the plea deal. So he's only technically been charged seven murders, but he acknowledged today that he did kill Karen Vergata.

[Ann Emerson]

It's unbelievable, you know, and so, Kristen, like, as you just said, that you're. You're right outside the courthouse in. In Suffolk county, right. In Long Island, New York. You know, this has been the epicenter for this case for. For years now, as They've tried to, you know, investigators have been coming in and out, trying to get anything to go on. What was the mood like when you got to the courthouse today? What did it feel like?

[Kristen Thorne]

Well, people got here, the doors, we know, open at 9am and so people were here as early as 2am to do their morning live shots. I got here around seven and was prepared to wait in line for two hours. And the line was already about halfway. It was long already. And so you had everybody here, you had a mixture of the media as well as. What we didn't have years ago in 23, when he was arrested, is the True Crime fans. So there was a whole community of people here who wanted to be there to witness this. And they did have enough space, thankfully, for most people to get in. And I've been saying, Ann, I was actually really bummed when I got inside because I wasn't in the main room with him because it was just too many people. So I, at first I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm not going to be there. And I wanted to witness this. And I've been in before. I've seen him before. But I got put in the overflow room, which thankfully, when I started to think about, I was like, this could actually be a good thing because when you're in overflows, you get a good camera shot of the defendant, which when you usually you're in court, you cannot see their reactions because you're. They're. You're the. You see the back of their head. So now I had this great, perfect on shot of him. And so I was able to watch him this entire time. And the judge, the Ray Tierney, the DA just went name by name saying, did you kill her? And every single time he said, yes, I did. And he looked right at the DA Straight in the eye. But it wasn't like he was cavalier about it or overly confident. I've been equating it to. It's almost like you order something at a restaurant and the server comes by the table and says, is that what you meant to order? And you say, yes, that is what I meant to order. It was like that matter of fact, I was watching him trying to figure out, where have I seen this demeanor before? And that was kind of the only thing I could equate it to. And the only bit of details we got was the DA would say to him, and how did you kill her? And he said, strangulation. And that went on for eight women, one after one. And he admitted in three of the Gilgo, four cases that he used a burner phone to lure the women with promises of money because they were working as sex workers, and that he killed them and wrapped them in burlap over their head, their torso and their legs. And that was about the most specifics we got into that we heard from him.

[Ann Emerson]

So in. And these were the strangulation part of this. Have you heard that before, Kristen?

[Kristen Thorne]

Yeah, we had heard. You know, look, they didn't get into some of the more gruesome parts of these murders. I mean, several of these victims were dismembered and decapitated. So. But, you know, they may have had some discussions before this, for this allocation and this plea deal, that this is what he was going to say that he did. You know, I think a lot of people still have questions about what else happened to these women in the course of this, but ultimately, that's what he pled guilty to, was to strangling. Strangling them.

[Ann Emerson]

And, you know, you said that he had to speak. What did his voice sound like? Besides, I mean, you gave a wonderful, you know, interpretation of what. What it sounded like, but sort of his body language. Did he. Did he shuffle? Did he move at all? Or was he just straigh. Straight up and down.

[Kristen Thorne]

Straight up and down when he walked into the courtroom? And again, because I had a good look at him, he walked in. He didn't acknowledge anybody in the crowd, and it was packed, so his wife was there, his. His ex wife, excuse me, his older daughter. And he didn't like, attempt to look for them. Sometimes you'll see defendants kind of look. It was also lined in the back with detectives, which is very typical in a case like this. You'll have detectives work the case. But he just walked in, looked straight ahead, looked at the judge, looked at Tierney, the DA and, you know, we've all seen that video that he did with the French. Yeah. Architect. Right. So it. It's exactly that voice. It's that voice that you hear from the YouTube video. And it does sound. It's a unique voice, right? Like, it's got a. It's got an interesting sound to it. And so it. It was sort of. Again, it was all very surreal. I don't think I've fully wrapped my head around what. What's happened here today that this is actually over. I mean, the case is over. That's what's. It's. It's just done. And under this plea agreement, Rex Herman can no longer be charged in any of these eight murders. Now, this is where it gets interesting. As part of the plea deal, he has to cooperate with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit, meaning. And we don't know much more than that. That's all his attorney would say because we're trying to figure out are they trying to talk to him about potentially some other cases that they're trying to close that they think he may be involved in. And Mike Brown just said that. That is all I'm going to say about may be because they want to talk to him about his mind and what drove him to do kill eight women. And over the course of. Of how. However many years, 1993 to 2010. So there. And the murders changed over the course of that time. So there's probably a lot for them to dig into. And under this plea, he is forced to communicate with them.

[Ann Emerson]

Yes. So this is the behavioral unit that's coming out of the FBI out of Quantico. Right. So these are the guys. These are. These are the guys and gals, the serial killer profilers that go in there. They're the ones that invented the term serial killer. Right. Like, these are the people that like, actually wrote the book on it. And to have Rex Heuerman working with them. Yes. Like, not only could we find out about more victims and, you know, since we both have been looking into it, you've been looking into it much, much, much longer than I have, obviously. But there are obviously more investigations out there that they have who they've got to ask Heuerman some questions on. Maybe I'll just say it like that.

[Kristen Thorne]

Exactly. And I think a lot of people thought, oh, well, he. A part of this plea. To be very clear, this plea deal means he can no longer be charged in it with anything related to these eight murders. But it doesn't mean preclude any other criminal, a law enforcement agency from investigating him. And you know, his attorney said something really interesting that Mike Brown said today is. Is. Was a relief for Rex Herman. I mean, you take this for what it is. I'm just relaying the information that he has been living with this for many, many years, even while he was committing these horrific acts. And then today preparing for this for the last few weeks.

[Ann Emerson]

Was it a sense of relief, you

[Asa Ellerup]

think, for him to admit this today?

[Asa Ellerup's Attorney]

I did. I think that was a huge sense of relief for him. I. I can't. I'm not in his position, obviously, and I never will be. But when you have that type of. In your head and on your body and just. Yeah, I think by admitting it, I think it's cathartic to some extent. Sure.

[Kristen Thorne]

All of us wanted to know, like, when did. When did he decide that it was time, that he was just gonna throw in the towel? Because, remember, for the last three years, it's been, I didn't do it. And, yeah, he's not guilty.

[Ann Emerson]

Not guilty.

[Kristen Thorne]

The attorney wouldn't. Mike Brown wouldn't say specifically because attorney client privilege, but he said he did allude to the fact that it's been at least a few weeks. And I just think the walls of justice were closing in here. I mean, the DNA. Mike Brown had tried to get thrown out. The judge said no. Mike Brown had tried to get each individual. Seven cases at that point, separate. Judge said no, they all have to be together. And so it finally, with the trial was set for just after Labor Day. So it's coming up here in a few months. Essentially, he decided that this is what he wanted to do, and he also said he wanted to do it. You take this for what it is, that he didn't want to put the victim's families through a trial, and he didn't want to put his own family through a trial. Now, I'm thinking that that's probably more of a truth in that, because this would have been an extremely brutal trial for anybody to sit through. Nevertheless, his children. Right. His grown children.

[Asa Ellerup's Attorney]

He certainly wanted to save the families of the victims. The ordeal of going to trial and coupled with saving his family, that ordeal.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, do you think that there was any motive behind Rex Heuermann? I mean, I know we're talking about a serial killer, and I mean, let's just like, psychopath. I mean, like, whatever, however you want to, like, term what happened and why he did. Certainly is insanity defined. But, like, what. Is there any motive? Anything that we could, like, point to in this?

[Kristen Thorne]

Nothing yet. And we asked about that today, and. And Mike Brown wouldn't comment on whether they had discussed anything related to a motive. Rex Herman, for many years had been researching violent porn, had been looking at how to murder people. He's. He's clearly a very disturbed individual. You know, what's interesting is we. We don't know a ton about his childhood. His childhood, for all we know, was actually pretty normal. Now, he did have a rough, like, because he was so big and awkward that we know he had a rough, like, teenage hood. Right? Like middle school teenage, that he was very, you know, he was picked on and. And all those sorts of things. Maybe that had had something to do with, you know, I remember interviewing a. A girl who went to high school with him. And she recalled something about him, him liking her and she, you know, didn't, didn't like him back, but, you know, just politely told him that she wasn't interested. And you know, he took it really hard. And she had said that he'd been bullied a lot. You know, maybe that, that, I mean, we could talk about this all day long. Maybe that had something to do with why he targeted this.

[Ann Emerson]

Wonder if that's what the FBI, you know, their, their unit is going to be able to start delving into.

[Nikki]

Right.

[Ann Emerson]

Like what, what is the motive behind some, some kind of these decades long killing spree?

[Kristen Thorne]

Yeah, I hope so. I mean, that would be some good that, that could come of this. Right. Trying to figure out what caused him to be like this. How did he do this and get away with this? Well, that's a whole other story. But you know, police, Suffolk police did not handle this investigation the way they should have from the beginning. And so he was able to get away with this stuff for many, many years. And he chose his perf, the perfect victim. Right. Sex workers figuring no one's gonna care or look for them. And obviously, unfortunately not for their family members. But unfortunately was correct about law enforcement. You know, we're, it's a different time now. This was, you know, 1993, 96, 2000, you know, and, and so these women were, these families were pleading for assistance and police weren't listening. So either way, FBI. Yeah. And I do hope that I was already trying to think, I wonder how soon, you know, is, is it going to be five years from now, ten years from now where we're going to learn about what the FBI learned from him. I mean, eventually it's going to come out. I'm, I'm really curious to see what they learn.

[Ann Emerson]

Oh my gosh. And I mean, and also, you know, this isn't necessarily the time we would hear remorse or, or apologies from, from him. You know, I expect if we get anything from him, that's going to be during the sentencing, I would expect. And also more victim impact statements, you know, and that's June 17th for our viewers at the. That'll be, you know, that'll be coming up. And I'm sure, I'm sure they're going to have something to say about this. But when he walked in, did he look at any of the victims? And did you hear. And, and when I say victims, I mean victims families, obviously. But did you hear the families in the courtroom at all or, and did he look at them in any way?

[Kristen Thorne]

No, it was very quiet. It was very quiet. And no, he didn't look at anybody. I mean, he didn't look even from his own ex wife and daughter. You would expect at least that. And he didn't even look for them. Now, we know on June 17, his attorney says he does expect that Rex Sherman will make a statement. I do expect that we will hear from some of the family members. Some have been more out. Some are more willing to talk than others. But if you saw in the press conference today, I thought it was interesting that each of the family members that came up to the podium, Gloria Allred, their attorney, had them acknowledge that they accept the plea. Kind of making that public statement that we support this, because, you know, so often things can get twisted and do they really support this? And maybe this isn't what they wanted. And that's why it's so important for the record that these families state that they agree with this plea.

[Asa Ellerup]

And I am glad that this is over. As far as him pleading guilty, it took a big chunk of stress off of me and my family.

[Kristen Thorne]

Finally, a sense of relief.

[Ann Emerson]

The guilty plea brings solace.

[Kristen Thorne]

And I like to thank everyone who had a part in that fight for justice.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, and I want to also talk about Karen Vergata, because, of course, this all comes out. I mean, we got a little bit of a heads up that this could be Karen Vergata. Can you tell me who Karen is, Was. And how this fits into his M.O.

[Kristen Thorne]

sure. So Karen Vergada. And by the way, the D.A. tierney says that they have met with her family prior to this.

[Ann Emerson]

Okay, great.

[Kristen Thorne]

Karen Vergada was 34 years old. She disappeared in 1996 from Manhattan. She was an escort. She was 34 years old. And her body parts were first found in 1996 on Fire island, which is near Gilgo Beach. And she was known as the Fire Island Jane Doe for many, many years. And then about 15 years after that, more of her body parts were found in another area near Gilgo. And then we just learned about Karen Vergada. Let me think this may be. It was after he was arrested, shortly after he was arrested, you know, that they had put together who these remains belong to. Right. Using genius public genealogy. And so right away, you know, we're all. Now, they wouldn't say then we think that he's connected, but it, you know, it was right up the same alley, which is the young female sex worker. And. And so, yeah, here we are. But the D A. Tierney made it very clear in his press Conference that he has met with, I think it appears to be almost all of the. The families of these victims.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah. And she, you know, with. With her becoming the number eight victim for him. You know, one thing that. That stood out to me when I was listening to the press conference was that the DA Said there are still bodies on that beach that need to be identified. And, yes, he said it several times. And that really stuck to me was that, you know, yes, this. This case, this indictment of these. Of these women who were murdered. This case is closed, but there's an ongoing investigation.

[Kristen Thorne]

Yes. And so we do know that the woman known as Peaches and her toddler have been identified, and they do have somebody in custody for that. But what he's referring to is the Asian Doe. And so there was a. An Asian male who was a sex worker who has still. Is still unidentified, who they believe. You know, there's a lot of people are. We're trying to figure this out whether Rex could be linked to that Asian Doe. And that is still a possibility. Remember, his plea just means that these eight women. He can't face any other charges related to that. So let's say that they find going in a year from now that he did something additional to this victim in the course of this crime. They can't now add that on. It doesn't really matter. He's facing seven life sentences. But legally speaking, that's what the plea is. So I don't know if they'll ever establish if he killed Asian Doe. And I think what Tierney is alluding to, just so your viewers know, for our community here on Long island, obviously these are not the only unsolved murders and unidentified people. Right. And so Ray Tierney has really made it a mission. And I think he's probably seen the success of what happened with the Gilgo beach task force to make sure that all these other families. Right. We have a lot of unsolved murders and unidentified people who have been killed. He wants to make sure that all those families get the same outcome as. As these families did.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, and also we heard from Asa Ellerup today, too, which I thought was fascinating. The ex wife to Rex Heuerman, who said that she would up until now, never accept that he was the man responsible for this until she heard it out of his mouth, which she did today.

[Asa Ellerup]

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. Their loss is immeasurable, and the focus should be on them at this time and moment. I ask that you give some privacy to my family as they navigate through this Very difficult time.

[Asa Ellerup's Attorney]

How did you not see what he was. How did you not see what he had done?

[Bob Macedonio]

Sir, the district attorney's office has thoroughly, thoroughly investigated the. These crimes. Okay? It has been proven you were living

[Asa Ellerup's Attorney]

in the same house with him.

[Bob Macedonio]

She was away. She was away each and every occasion. We've answered this a thousand times. Okay?

[Kristen Thorne]

Yes. And so this morning, before she went in, we all, you know, kind of ambushed her, as we do as the press, and, you know, asked her what she was thinking, and she only spoke through her attorney at that point, and he said yes. Until she hears it out of his mouth, she will not believe it. And she has always said that. She has a hard time, I'm sure, even now, believing that he did this, because it's just not the man she. I mean, you take this for what it is. This is what she says. This is not the man she knew. It wasn't the man she married. But clearly, in court today, she heard her ex husband go victim by victim, acknowledging that he killed them. And then she made a statement outside court, which was pretty monumental because she's made very few of them publicly, that she wanted today to be about the victims, that that's. That's who mattered. And it wasn't about her, and it wasn't about him. It was about remembering them.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah, I know. And she really kept it to that. She wouldn't take any other questions, from what I could tell. But she. And she was trying to keep the focus on the victims that he now pleaded guilty to killing. But the. There is a lawsuit as well against them. Can you. Can you tell me what this lawsuit is against Issa and her grown children, Right?

[Kristen Thorne]

Yes. Against Asa and Victoria, and I'm not sure if the son. I don't know if he was named. But yesterday, before all of this happened, the grown son of Valerie Mack filed a civil lawsuit against Asa Ellarup and Victoria Heuermann for civil damages, essentially saying that they knew who Rex German was, that they knew, according to their lawsuit, that he was involved in doing this, that he was killing people. And because they knew that, they denied this son the right to his mother. Right. And so that's the damage. What is the damage? That's what the damage is, that he has lost his mother in the course of this. Now, this has been. Has made Asa and the family very upset. And her attorney was on fire this morning talking about this lawsuit.

[Bob Macedonio]

Let me be absolutely clear. We just heard in the courtroom Rex human, and Rex human alone is responsible for these horrific crimes. Any suggestion that Asa Elareup or Victoria Heumann were involved is irresponsible. They have no knowledge, no involvement, or any connection to these heinous acts. Mrs. Ellerup and Victoria accept today's outcome without question. She and her family have cooperated fully since day one with law enforcement and will continue to respect this legal process as it comes to a conclusion.

[Kristen Thorne]

And he brings one of the point. I mean, you can. You know, I understand. I don't agree with it, but I understand why people are suspicious of Asa Ellerup. She was an adult. She was living in the house, although she was out of town when many, many of these murders happened. And she has been cleared by investigators. Straight cleared where Bob macedonio, their attorney, has an amazing point, is that Victoria Heuerman was three years old when Valerie Mack was killed. And so there is no case at all with involving Victoria Heuerman, and she did not speak today. Victoria, she is. You know, gosh, actually, she stood literally right behind me in line getting into the courthouse. Oh, God.

[Ann Emerson]

Really?

[Kristen Thorne]

Yeah, yeah. And Asa was right here, and I just did very pleasant talk. I don't talk anything about the crime, and obviously I'm talking about the weather. But Victoria is, you know, just looked really, really distraught. Asa kept her sunglasses on the whole time. So I didn't. I didn't make eye contact. But Bob Macedonio has said that these lawsuits and these claims that people have made against the family have been really, really painful. And I believe that. I do believe that, and I do feel for Victoria because, you know, she's now being sued for something that happened when she was three years old. So I. They'll be able. He'll be able to counteract that. So that is the new. And now he. But that is a lawsuit that is now happening. And I asked Bob Macedonia what's the next step in that, and it's. It's going to now go through the legal process.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this. This case, because it just got. It has these ripple effects, right. Like people can't believe. And I've heard this from. From the folks we've talked to on this case as well, that there's a possible torture chamber down in a basement of a house, yet, you know, the family had no clue that anything was going on in that house, even though they were out of town during the time. I guess it's just hard for people to believe. The house was quite small. It was, like, less than 1400 square feet, I think. You know, I mean, Kristen, it's just, you know, we. We love with our partners and children.

[Kristen Thorne]

And.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah, like, I can see why the public is like, you've got to be kidding me.

[Kristen Thorne]

Sure.

[Ann Emerson]

You don't know what's going on in your. In your house. Come on.

[Kristen Thorne]

Yeah, yeah, look, I understand where it's coming from. I think Bob Macedonia made a very good point today when he was talking about this, which is if Ray Tierney and the prosecution had even an inkling that Asa Elarup was involved, and they have a ton of evidence and 120 terabytes and 7015 pages.

[David Mittleman]

Come on.

[Kristen Thorne]

Okay. That is a ton of evidence. And if she showed up, if she showed up in any of that, they would be prosecuting her. And I think that is a strong argument. Right. And so. But you have to have faith in the, in the prosecution and in our law enforcement. And if you do, then you do have to accept that Asa Ellerup did not know. Had nothing to do with any of this that was going on. I do understand. It is a small house. It was a cluttered house. It is by far the weird house on the block. I've told people, if you walk down that block and you said, where would a serial killer live? That is exactly where he would live. I couldn't believe it when I first saw it. I said, this can't be real. I mean, it's. It should look like every other house. Right. Like, don't you want to fit in? He made no attempt to fit in. The whole family didn't. So, look, I. I get. I get where the suspicion is. I think, you know, we will never. We will never really know whether what she knew. Right. That's different than what she may have done.

[Nikki]

Yeah.

[Kristen Thorne]

Maybe she saw things in the house. Maybe she saw things in the house and now she looks back on it

[Ann Emerson]

and she goes, that's what I was seeing.

[Kristen Thorne]

Oh, my gosh. That's what that was. Right?

[Ann Emerson]

His. His passionate, his mementos. He was keeping those articles that he was holding on to. I mean, even this woman who says that she went on a date with him. Nikki said that. She told us that, you know, he. He was asking her all about Gilgo beach, what she knew about it, had she heard about it, all this kind of stuff. And makes you wonder what the dinner table conversations were like at Rex Heuerman's house.

[Nikki]

He said, do you know about the Gilgo beach killer? And like, I'm. It's Long island, of course. So I was like, yeah, of course I do. And he was like, God, really excited. But, like, when that was at the point where, like, his whole body language shifted. Like, it wasn't. It was weird. Like, he came really close in and was, like, super excited to talk about it.

[Ann Emerson]

Just because you're eccentric doesn't mean that you have any clue what's actually going on underneath your nose.

[Kristen Thorne]

Yes. You know, I heard someone describe Asa to me. It was a while ago. It's when we were kind of digging into the family and who they were, and I forget who it was, but. And again, I don't know her personally. I'm just saying what somebody told me, but she's sort of a little, you know, she doesn't really pay attention to a lot that's going on around her. And, you know, she's. I don't know. Flighty's the word. I don't know what it is, but I remember someone telling me that it would be possible based upon what they know of Asa. And this was someone. It was either her attorney or somebody who knew her pretty intimately, that this could have been happening right under her nose. And she. It's just her personality, like, she just wouldn't have noticed.

[Ann Emerson]

No peripheral. Like, she's just living with those blinders on of what's going on. Well, I mean, that's just fascinating. And I know we've got, you know, we've got more coming up on. On. On June 17th. You expect to hear from some of our victims families?

[Kristen Thorne]

I do. I hope that they will talk. I was happy to see that during the press conference today. We did hear from a few of them. I've said before, the families have been very private this entire time, all these years, even when this all first happened in 2010, when the story really broke. And so I was really heartened to see that they were there at the press conference. Not everybody wanted to talk, but some did and they came up. And I do hope that they make a statement. I would love to hear from them about what this has done to them, about their loved ones and how much they're missed, especially from the children. I mean, some of these kids were. They're grown now, but they were 2, 3 when their moms just disappeared.

[Nikki]

Yeah.

[Kristen Thorne]

It's heartbreaking to see those kids. Yeah. That's where I'm really. You know what? I may actually aim to get into the overflow room for the sentencing because. Right. Because I want to be able to see his face and their face because that camera has a great view. And I really am interested. That is where, I mean, quite frankly, I don't think we're going to see any emotion out of him then either. I just think that there's no recognition.

[Ann Emerson]

No, he didn't see them as people. He just saw them as objects. This was just something that he did to them. And you know, and also just from what we've seen before, right, Kristen, I mean, we just lived through the Bryan Kohberger victim impact statements. That really has set the bar for me as far as hearing from victims, families of what. Of how unbelievably painful that was. I can, you know, it really put it into perspective for these cases. So. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing Rex. Human can say right now. There's nothing. There's no. I'm sorry. That would ever even get close for these families, I don't think.

[Kristen Thorne]

No, not at all.

[Ann Emerson]

And he's not sorry. He's not sorry.

[Kristen Thorne]

No, no. I think they would still. Sometimes families just want to hear something come out of people's mouths. Like some. It's just some sort of acknowledgment that. That they had something to do with this. And so I was. I was glad to hear from Mike Brown that Rex Sherman is expected. He is. He is going to make a statement. I. Who knows what it will be, but it will be. It will certainly be another big day.

[Ann Emerson]

It certainly will. And hopefully we'll see you there. You know, your reporting on this case has been just extraordinary. Well, it was just like being in the courtroom with you. So I appreciate.

[Kristen Thorne]

Yeah, yeah, no, it was really. It was very interesting. And to see in like the. The amount of people who have now who have podcasts who are. Who are kind of like these independent journalists who are now covering. Yeah, it was pretty wild. It's. To see how even just in the last three years, there's been. There's all these new people on the scene who have never been with us and, you know, we've been covering this for so long, I think it's. I'm not saying it's good or bad. It's very interesting.

[Ann Emerson]

It's just a different landscape, isn't it? You're. You're vying for seats. It's a very different. I saw it a lot at Murdoch with the true crime fans. When with Alec Murdoch's trial, it was filled. The galley was filled every day with that, with. With true crime fans that came in. But at Lori Valo daybell, that's when I started seeing, like the real podcasters coming in and the whole vibe was changing because it was like any, you know, you could be media if you said that you were media and you were, you know, it just. It was a really different scene.

[Kristen Thorne]

It is. But here's what I want people to know this. In this country, you are, as a citizen, allowed to go to any of these hearings. And so you are. And there were people there today who weren't with the media, weren't podcasters, weren't anything. They just wanted to be there, including a guy who I interviewed in 2023, who I lives in the same neighborhood or thereabout, who I just happened to run into in line, who was here. And so I do want people to know. I think a lot of people think that we operate in a closed court system. This is an open court system in this country. And so any sentencing, any hearing, any trial, anything, you are entitled to witness that as a citizen. And I would love for people to do that and see how the judicial system works. It's fascinating.

[Ann Emerson]

You're 100% right. And I love it, too. Like, I've. I had amazing conversations with people throughout that six weeks with Alec Murdoch, just talking about what happened that day. They just wanted to be a part of it. They wanted to see how justice worked. It wasn't just the. It wasn't just this, the. The Murdoch scene. It was the fact that they were sitting in a courtroom, hearing, hearing how all this, all this went down. So, yeah, I totally agree with you. Everybody should go and sit in a courtroom every once in a while and see what's going on.

[Kristen Thorne]

Absolutely.

[Ann Emerson]

It's all right. So thank you. I appreciate it. Kristen was our eyes and ears in that courtroom with Rex. How she described him admitting to those murders. Cavalier, overly confident, matter of fact, like he was ordering food off of a menu in a restaurant. It just gave me the chills. But the big shock was learning about this eighth victim, Karen Vergata. He admitted in court to intentionally causing her death. You know, I had to talk to the genetic genealogy experts over at Othram about Karen's case. Now let's hear what founder and CEO of Othram, Dr. David Mittleman has to say. David Mittleman from Othram, thank you so much for joining us. You know, we just watched a press conference with DA out of Suffolk County, New York, talking about Rex Heuermann. Now, Rex Heuermann, the Gilgo beach serial killer, has pleaded guilty to killing seven women in Long island, but now has acknowledged that he also murdered a woman who was known as the Fire Island Jane Doe. And we now know her name is Karen Vergata. We know this kind of information because of the work that you're doing. Right. Can you talk to me about the Fire Island Jane Doe? What, what DNA was given to you in order for you to be able to identify this woman as Karen?

[David Mittleman]

Yeah. And I, you know, I have to say it's. It's a relief to find out that he was able to, you know, confess to these crimes. It. It'll certainly get answers to the families a little quicker than putting everyone through a trial. And you know, this, this case involving Fire Island Jane Doe is an interesting case because it's, it's a lot older than, than. Than perhaps some of the other cases in, in the, in the Gilgo beach murders. In fact, it's so old it's from 1996. But it's an important case because it basically demonstrates that his reign of terror actually began decades earlier than perhaps people realized. And hopefully there aren't a whole bunch of more victims. But she was found in 1996 and there was just no way to identify her by the time we got involved. And just to give you the history on the case, she was entered into namus, which is the federal repository for human remains cases in 2011. And again, no identity and the technology to do the kind of work that we do wasn't around in 1996 and it wasn't around in 2011, but it was around. We started our company in 2018 and in 2022, the Suffolk's County Police Department teamed up with OTHRAM and the Bureau and we actually looked at a number of cases. There's some other identifications that we made of victims that were found in the Gilgua beach area and there's more that are in the works. And so we teamed up and all they had was skeletal remains. But, you know, these remains were found on the beach. They had been sitting for decades. And I believe there was some previous testing that was done prior to Othram getting involved and they weren't able to build a DNA profile. This is a really important thing. This idea of being able to identify the source of DNA even without a suspect or a match is premised on three steps. One is that you have to be able to essentially digitize the physical evidence in this case, the skeletal remains. You gotta be able to take those skeletal remains and get the DNA data off of it. And that's a challenge in itself that we could talk about if you wanted to. It's not generally well reported, though. There's no inference or genetic genealogy or records tracing. If you can't actually get good DNA markers from the original evidence. And then the second step is, of course, building that DNA profile. And the third is using whatever tools you can use to infer identity. In this case, it was a genetic genealogy search and the building out of family trees. And so that's. That's how Karen got identified. We got involved in 2022. It took a little time to work this case, but by the, by the. I think it was. Maybe it was In August of 2023, late summer, early fall in 2023, we were able to publicly make that announcement. There was already some speculation that she might be a victim, you know, and part of this Long island serial killer case. But. But there wasn't a clear enough of a. Obviously of a line of connection to formally charge him. And so it's just amazing. Now it's been another couple of years, and finally full circle, he's taken account ability and responsibility for this. This poor girl's death. And, and anyways, we're just thrilled that we were able to help. It's very hard, you know, how do you work a homicide if you don't know the victim is. How would they even begin to connect it to anything if they don't know who it is? So just getting her name back, I think was. Was. Was already a great relief.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, a great relief and a massive leap into the investigation. Right. Like, she does fit the profile of what she was doing for a living, where she. She looked like, where she was found. And then to be able to take some of that. Those profile of the victim and, and match it to what Rex Heuerman was up to in the Gilgo beach area, then they could start making some. Some investigatory sort of leaps, as it were, into, into telling him, no, no, no, you. There's an eighth victim here.

[David Mittleman]

That's why it's so important to understand the identity of the victim, because once you know that, you can trace, you know, the last days or weeks of that person's life, you know, who they were talking to, where they were moving around. And, and like you said, it allows you then to intersect that with the secondary investigation of the suspect that was alleged to have murdered so many women. And so you really need the identity of the victim to kind of tie those cases together. And, and that's why it's so important. Obviously, it's important for the family, too. Families probably wondered for years, you know, what had happened to their daughter, to their sibling, to their friend. And so, so we had to get the answer for that reason as well.

[Ann Emerson]

I mean, David, it's just, it's, it's extraordinary because you, you literally are, you know, speaking the language of forensic criminologists, the people that are working as boots on the ground investigators at crime scenes. They're going to tell, you know, who your victim is, know what's going on with your victim, and you're going to find who did this, you know. So I think that you work hand in hand with the, the kind of boots on the ground investigators that are out there doing this kind of work.

[David Mittleman]

Yeah, I know it. I mean, look, anything, anything we know about, anything related to investigations comes from our work with investigators. So, you know, we're not law enforcement. I don't have an investigative background. I just, I, I do what I can to assist the folks that are actually boots on the ground doing the work that they do. But it was really exciting to do the research study because they've always told us, like you said, that you need to know your victim before you can work the crime. But we now have real data.

[Ann Emerson]

And David, I mean, as far as, like, when you get, in this case, 1996, you're getting evidence from 1996. Right. Which is the remains of this young woman, and you're looking at it. I mean, what kind of shape. Can you tell me anything about the sort of, the nitty gritty of what you were dealing with when you were able to get the DNA from, from, from the Jane Doe at the time?

[David Mittleman]

Yeah, I mean, you know, some of these remains there, there's like small fragments that are left. Sometimes, sometimes the bone is, is really not solid anymore. It's become kind of mush. And, and there's just like, there's just like very little, little, very little parts of it that are still, you know, productive for, for DNA testing. And the other problem is that they've been sitting around for a while and, and they weren't, they weren't sitting in a lab originally. They were sitting out, you know, buried in a beach area. And so there's bacteria and there's mold and other things that have grown on it. And so, you know, and all that has DNA too. Bacteria has DNA. There's, there's DNA and all sorts of things that are, that are sitting on there. And so not only are you degrading the DNA, the condition of the remains are getting worse because they've been sitting for, you know, some 30 some odd years, but, but also there's now other DNA that's not human that's come in there and all of this, you know, there's chemical Damage. All of this basically compounds and makes it harder and harder to, to number one, get DNA that's human, but number two, also do something with that DNA. So you know, we, we started from just really terrible material, like I said, that had failed other labs, 2022, we hadn't done a lot of work in New York yet. And so, you know, we told the, the agency, we said, look, I, I know you've had trouble elsewhere, but give us a chance. We've got a very different way that we process forensic material. It's truly one of a kind. And we've been able to get really great DNA profiles, not just DNA, but usable DNA profiles that can find relatives from almost anything. And so, and we've gone on to since really push the limits. I would say in 2026, of course there's always going to be something that we can't process, but there are fewer and fewer forensic items that are not really amenable to the kind of work that we do. So it's another very exciting thing as we're constantly doing research and development to figure out how can we work with less DNA, how can we work with DNA that's more damaged DNA from just really fringe items, touch DNA, you know, hair, all these kind of things that have previously been barriers for moving the investigation forward.

[Ann Emerson]

You know, Karen Vergata was never reported missing. How were you able to link her DNA to her family tree? Was it through, through what you're talking about, going through genetic genealogy?

[David Mittleman]

Yeah, yeah. So this, this was genetic genealogy and you know, credit for building out these trees belongs to the Bureau. Karen died in 1996. So I imagine she had a very small Internet footprint. The Internet was just getting, you know, the World Wide Web was just getting off the ground. So you could imagine there's, there's not a lot of information about her online. She kind of vanished around that time period. And then a couple phone calls to family members and, and next thing you know it, family confirms that they've not seen her or heard from her. They put two and two together. And then also to remember that whenever you do these investigations, at the end you confirm, you confirm that you have the right person by doing a direct one to one test between the person that you think is a relative and, and, and the DNA from the crime scene or from the remains. And so all of that tied together led to the answer. So you're right. In general, it's easier if the person's reported missing, but even if they're not reported missing, you'll eventually Track them down. Because you essentially seek to identify who amongst these people reported missing or not are essentially not accounted for in 2026.

[Ann Emerson]

Are you working on any other cases with. With. In the Gilgo beach serial killer?

[David Mittleman]

Yeah, there's. There's. There's a number. There's a.

[Ann Emerson]

There's a.

[David Mittleman]

There's a handful of remains that have been recovered, and they're still. They're still being worked. You know, there's. There's. There's one particularly interesting case involving, you know, someone that has an Asian biogeographical ancestry, and that's a very complicated ancestry to work using traditional genetic genealogy. People from Asia are not well represented in the genetic genealogy databases. So that's certainly an example of a case. And so, yeah, there's probably going to be an ongoing effort. There's, unfortunately, a lot of remains that have been found in that area, and they're not necessarily all tied to the same person, but nonetheless, they need to be identified, and then there needs to be an investigation. And, you know, there's. There's another set of remains that we helped identify, and they have a different suspect in mind for her, for her death. And so, yeah, we basically work to identify as many as we can, and then we count on the investigators to kind of connect the dots and see who might be responsible.

[Ann Emerson]

With this case, with the Gilgo case, I was just curious, just to be clear, you weren't looking at Rex Heuermann's DNA. You were just looking to identify victims.

[David Mittleman]

Is that correct?

[Ann Emerson]

You're not connecting. You're not connecting him to those victims?

[David Mittleman]

No, the. The connection between Karen and. The possible connection between Karen and Rex was. Was based on non DNA evidence. Right. Is based on, like you said, her background, whether she fits the profile. So had there been suspect DNA that was found then, then we could have helped there. And that's happened before. We identified a, you know, an unidentified murder victim off a highway in Atlanta. And. And then there was DNA that was found on her body from the person that sexually assaulted and murdered her. And so then we were able to identify the victim and the perpetrator. But. But in this particular case, all we had were these, you know, terribly degraded, you know, partial skeletal remains. You know, it's, it's. It's her skeletal remains, you know, so there was no longer any evidence that would definitively, through DNA, tie, tie a particular suspect to that case. And I think that's why it was so hard and it took that extra investigative effort to make the connection.

[Ann Emerson]

David, it was just fascinating. Thank you so much for talking to me about this today. And it, and it really puts it into perspective. You know, I said it earlier when we were watching the press conference with the da the generations of investigators that have worked on these cases. I think there was one of his victims that was identified in 1993 and then you have Karen now in 1996 and then you have these huge gaps up to 2009 and, and, and so on. And it's just, it's incredible how many people have been involved in, in being able to solve these crimes. It's, it's really, it's extraordinary.

[David Mittleman]

Yeah, it's, it's also just terrible because, because like I said, it looks like his, his, his killing spree is, is, is gone for decades. It's, it's just absolutely terrible. So I hope that the families, at least they got some answers. There's no really way to reverse what happened, but at least they have answers. I just hope that they can continue to kind of understand and maybe this is part of the plea deal, I don't know. But maybe as part of this plea they can seek to understand what else he's done and what other damage he's caused because there could be any number of other open ended cases that also are tied to families that are waiting for answers. So I just hope that they're able to, to make those connections.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, as part of his plea deal, David, he has to go, he has to talk to the behavioral unit at FBI and I'm sure they're going to, they are going to be looking at anything else that could possibly have happened. I mean this is too many years like, like you said. Thank you so much, I appreciate it. There you have it. There is no one I would rather talk to as we sit here with this guilty plea. Kristen brought us into the courtroom and, and David took us behind the curtain to understand how this eighth victim, Karen Vergata, got her name back. It'll be so interesting to see what happens next in this case. And you know, we'll be covering the sentencing June 17th right here at Criminally Obsessed. Be sure to like and subscribe to Criminally Obsessed so you don't miss any of the fascinating updates to this case and so many others. And be sure to leave us a five star review if you can. It goes a lot long way to help others find our podcast.