← Criminally Obsessed
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone. I'm Ann Emerson, and this is criminally obsessed. For the first time in more than two and a half years, we saw Alec Murdoch in a courtroom as he gets ready for his new murder trial. But I couldn't stop staring at one thing.
- [00:15]
B
And I have to remind you that this is an individual who already had his tablet. And we'll just take it away.
- [00:20]
A
Did you notice what he kept doing with his mouth for our audio listeners? He kept on pressing his tongue to the inside of his cheek over and over again. I knew something looked different, but I just couldn't quite figure out what it was. So I called someone that spots things that most of us miss. Body language and deception expert Susan Constantine. Wait until you hear what she said about that one little movement.
- [00:45]
C
It's a dagger. It's like, oh, I vehemently hate you.
- [00:50]
A
We get into the tongue, the rocking, his eyes, his runny nose. Yes, even if someone can actually make their nose run on cue.
- [01:01]
C
Well, we don't know what he did beforehand either.
- [01:03]
A
And here's what makes that so fascinating. Body language is already part of the Murdoch story. Remember, Bucky Hill was accused of telling jurors to watch Alec Murdoch's body language. It's a huge no, no. And partly why his first trial was tossed. So now I'm wondering, when a brand new jury sees him next April, what are they going to notice?
- [01:25]
C
I think he's going to spin a new tale. We just don't know what that is. But you know what? You and I are going to be sitting there, right there on sidelines, watching, talking about it.
- [01:33]
A
Susan has spent years studying deception. And her new book, how to spot a liar in seven seconds or less, comes out in February 2027. She actually had an entire chapter on Alec Murdoch, but she had to pull it because legally, he's presumed innocent until his new trial is decided. I've been dying to have this conversation. Because if our bodies really do give away the truth, what did we miss the first time? Be sure to like and subscribe. I don't want you to miss any of the Murdoch coverage. And I'm so glad you're here. Now, let's get into it. You actually needed to. To pull out. Like, after Alex Murdoch's conviction was overturned, you actually had to pull out a chapter out of the book.
- [02:23]
C
Yeah, you know, I wasn't expecting that. Because now this is on retrial. We have a continuation. He's a skilled performer, so you have to remember now, he's a pro. I mean, he's an Attorney. So he knows how to turn it on in the courtroom to create the drama and the emotion and everything else. Because he's a personal injury attorney. Right. So he's very. He's what I call a skilled liar. I liken the body like a teapot. Okay, whatever that is going on inside of here, physiologically, where's it your thoughts, right? Your thoughts and your emotions. And when they are, what cognitive load builds meaning like this so overwhelming the body has to what like a teapot spread out like steam has to go out. And that's when you start to see all the physiological responses of that stress. So that's what I look at. So how is the brain and the body working together? And then how does it work within the timing of when something is as stated, like a probe or stimulus question or evidence or a picture or an accusation in which we're going to look at some things, but we're going to show some physiological responses in the courtroom.
- [03:34]
D
She's not dangerous. She's always seems to be big about stealing money. Chained around the waist, chained with the hands, chained on the feet. I mean this guy is not a serial killer. He's not, you know, Ted Bundy.
- [03:47]
C
When you watch Alex Murdoch, most of his emotion he conceals within his mouth. You'll see him doing a lot of mouth movement, right? Lots of. Just lots of movement. That's a stress. That's how he's can try to. That's a containment, right. I'm trying to contain it. So your mouth is moving, the muscles are moving. But there's one point which I thought was really interesting. Of course he was looking over at the prosecutor and he was talking about that iPad that. Who doesn't want him to have the iPad in there? And he looked at him with his narrow eyes, glared, looking over and you see this. I don't know if you saw that. That is a sword. And it was directed right at that prosecutor. Oh, wow. So when you see that's a dagger, it's like, oh, I vehemently hate you that he. That physiological. He's trying to contain it. Just think about. He's trying to contain it. So now he's. Since he doesn't want to see it, outwardly, it's happening inside the orifice of his mouth. And that's when you see it rolling around. But when it pokes out like that, that is never a good response ever.
- [05:00]
A
As I saw him like smirking a little bit like there was a. Did you notice that? Like a little bit of smirking going
- [05:06]
C
on yeah, so that's a really good. Thank you so much for bringing that up, too. So when you see smirking, there's a couple things that can happen. One, it's condescending. It's. It's diminishing what somebody's saying. You feel like the other person's a stupid person. You're a joker. You know, I. I don't really agree that this is a form narcissistic personality disorder. This is a combination of contempt and duping delight. Contempt is when you see the smirk and it's only on one side of the face like this. But then if he was, then if he smiles. So there's a combo that's called contempt off on one side, followed by duping delight. Like. Like he feels like he's pulling one over on. It's like a form of a thrill. Like, I've really duped you. He's getting arousal from it. But the contempt is a moral superiority. I'm better than you. It. It puts yourself at a high level, like superior superiority complex, which is form of narcissistic personality disorder.
- [06:10]
E
I did go get a gun and bring it down here.
- [06:11]
B
It's in your.
- [06:13]
A
Do you have any guns on you at all?
- [06:14]
E
Leaning up against the side of my car. You're fine, man. You're fine.
- [06:18]
A
When you were analyzing Murdoch's body language in the body cam video right after he called 91 1, what did you see in that video? What did it tell you?
- [06:30]
C
Well, there was a lot of performance that was going on, and you're. And others will ask me, well, how do you know that? Well, because in my method that I teach, I'm looking at these duration of emotions. And when you're looking at duration of emotion, especially when it comes to trauma, everyone responds differently, Right. So we can't compare one against the other. However, the animation and the lack of grief and pain that you would normally see in a face which is unconscious wasn't present. And if you remember, Ann, where he was kind of pointing with his flashlight, right? Pointing were here. He wouldn't come near his wife and son. And so there was a lot of stuff, even in proxemics. Why wouldn't he have drawn closer? Which was a horrible situation. He didn't want to do it. But that's just one piece of it.
- [07:23]
E
I ran out. I knew it was really bad. My boy over there, I could see it was.
- [07:39]
C
We look at these emotional responses, and sometimes they would jag like they'll go on, like, really, like, he's showing a lot of Snot in his nose. And he's like trying to faction to factor in tears, but they're more crocodile tear. So he's trying to hyperventilate himself, like hypervigilant and to try to create these emotions, but they're off. So that's what I teach. Like how do you know what is a real emotion and one is performed. So once you know the difference, you can say, yeah, that was a bad performance.
- [08:12]
A
What was, what was going on with that? Like one minute you've got, you've got tears and then all of a sudden he, he can barely very clearly answer like yes or no, sir, and ask a question. What does that say to you when
- [08:26]
C
you're talking about the emotions going on and off? The emotions, what we call a duration. Okay. There is a natural onset of an emotion and then there's a natural offset of an emotion. So you know, when it kind of goes up, it peaks and then it goes off and it graduates. Right. But goes. It jags. Right. So when it jags, you haven't finished that emotion before you went into a still emotion. And that's where he got caught because it was like extreme. Like think about Amber Heard Hammer is another one. Right? So you got these extreme, you know, trying to hyperventilate. Kind of like you're having a panic attack and you're crying profusely. But oftentimes they're just, they're really not tears. They can fake it and foe it, like try to, you know, raise their chin and look like they're pouting. But they also put themselves into the state of mind of how it's actually affecting them. And they are the victim, they are the one. So then they can have self pity and self pity can make them cry too. So it's an actor. An actor learns how to play the part. And I'm going to tell you that he tries so hard. And that's why I think this case when we're going to the retrial is really going to be interesting.
- [09:40]
A
How do you produce that much mucus and you know, dripping nose and everything when you're, when you're not really crying?
- [09:48]
C
Well, we don't know what he did beforehand either. So what did he. I mean, I could tell you sometimes people will even say, smell peppermint. Pepper? Yeah, yeah, peppermint. Or something that will cause that saliva kind of like production. And just so you know that we. I look at physiological responses. That's a physiological response.
- [10:08]
E
This is a long story. My son was in a boat wreck months back he's been getting threats. Most of it's been benign stuff we didn't take serious.
- [10:18]
D
Okay.
- [10:19]
E
You know, he. He's been getting, like, punched. I noticed somebody I know. That's what it is.
- [10:25]
C
This is what he does. He tries to give you a story because he's very linear. Okay? So what I mean by that is he has it already planned out in his head how he's going to deliver what he does. So those are. He's giving what they call probability qualifiers, the possibility of that this could have happened because, you know, his son was being. He was being sued because of his son, because of this, you know, boating accident. That. That probably is why this is. He's already giving probability qualifiers. He's setting the scene, right? He's trying to do it. So he's. What he's doing is he's deflecting from himself and then putting it over here. But then he would be looking off to the side or kind of slight to the back. Those are confirmation glands. What that means is. Is my story. Are they buying it? He's looking for a cue from them to seeing if that is making sense to them, like, oh, like watching them bob their head, like, huh. But they didn't. The police officer stayed still. They didn't say anything, right? Or they. They were talking to him, but they weren't agreeing with him. They were letting him talk. So when you see this closed posture like this, you know, that's not unusual for somebody that's gone through trauma. And I just want you to keep in mind, even though he committed, it doesn't mean he wasn't experiencing some sort of trauma from actually doing it. So I think that we need to consider that even murderers will feel sometimes, even though they don't have the real kind of empathy, there's a lot of shame. There's a lot of guilt that they carry. They just don't feel it. They don't feel it, but they might have shame because of what has occurred. So don't mistake that. This part may not be real, because it very well can be. But there's a point where that only lasts for so long, and then he goes back into the performance part of it.
- [12:19]
E
Me, my boy's laying face down. He's done the way he's done. Head was the way his head was. I could see his brain laying on the sidewalk. I didn't know what to do. I mean, I just tried to turn him over, grant him by the belt loop and try to turn him over.
- [12:45]
C
So I'm looking at A cluster. What was the probe? What was the question that created. Which is what we call stimulus. When you see that, what is the response? You have to tie it within seven seconds.
- [12:56]
A
And you're talking about in the. When they were actually had him on the stand, when he decided to testify.
- [13:01]
C
Okay, so here is that he's asked a question or maybe he's trying to relive something. Watch and see how long it takes to manifest itself and then how fast it actually jags off. So what he was doing, remember he's kind of leaning forward and he's had that snot dripping from his nose. So, you know, he had that and he doesn't even wipe it right. So that was a part of performance. I want you to see my nose dripping. So you can do that. And a lot of that will happen right here when you're following it. But when it doesn't show it in the eyes is what we call, you know, you separate the regions of the face and then if this is disconnected from this, then that is performance. So because real sadness, you're going to see the corners of the corners of the eyes, our eyebrows lift up, you're going to see worry lines here. You're going to see deflated eyes. There's more to it than just saying, okay, they're snot there. We saw that with Casey Anthony. Sat there right in that child the whole time. And she's just kind of like dabbing a little bit. When she was watching her, as it was unfolding about her, the skull being found, right. And about the human decomposition. They smelt in the car like I'm watching her and she's barely dabbing little. Those are crocodile too. It's like you're trying to muster it up, right? It's not real.
- [14:16]
A
When people cry out of emotion and when they're really upset, you get, you get a lot more, right? You get, you get all of those other physiological symptoms as well of what's going on. You, you, you've got all of that going on. You don't see that with Alec, do you?
- [14:31]
C
Well, there's not with the shaking because he, he tries to create it, right? He's tries to, he tries to emulate it. That's why I say a performer, he's trying to emulate what that actually looks like, right? And real. You know, if somebody's really traumatized, there is a. The shock and awe.
- [14:48]
A
So, Susan, you're basically saying that like he's, he's able to pull emotion from the fact that he has lost people. I Mean, there are two people that he's been close to forever dead in front of him.
- [15:01]
C
Yeah. I mean, I think that there is kind of that shock and all. It's not every day that you see somebody's brains blown out and then they are actually your family member. So there is a part of that that's like the. The visualization of what it will look like that you actually created can cause some guilt and shame. The problem is they can't emulate it perfectly. The timing is always off. It's jagged. It's. They. They can't force a micro expression of sadness unless it's actually felt. If it's not felt, they can't manufacture it. So they can only manufacture in a certain region of the mouth. That's why when you and I, we watch a movie and you go, that person's not a very good actor. Do you ever have. Yeah, you're just not a good actor. Well, because they're not able to get into that actual emotion to show the micro expressions or the tonality or the facial. Well, the facial thread, the body language of that emotion. There's always a timing off. There's always something that's like a little off and that's. That's what's.
- [16:05]
B
What.
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C
I look at that part that's a little off.
- [16:07]
A
I think everybody had their own opinion about what happened. When he was talking about having to admit that he lied about being at the dog kennels.
- [16:17]
B
Did you lie to Sled Agent Owen and Deputy Laura Rutland on the night of June 7th and told them that you stayed at the house after dinner?
- [16:28]
E
I did lie to them.
- [16:29]
B
Alec, why did you lie to Agent Owen, Agent Croft and Deputy Rutland about the last time you saw Maggie and Paul?
- [16:38]
E
As my addiction evolved over time, I would get in these situations of circumstances where I would get paranoid.
- [16:48]
A
What did you see during that admission of. Yes, I. I'm a. I'm a liar. I lied about it. What did you see during that.
- [16:57]
C
Again, those are qualifiers. Right. I. And I use qualifying himself. So he. The problem was, is that he had no way out. I mean, once the evidence was there, there's no way escaping that. So he has to explain it away. But that's what he's good at doing in the court anyway. Right. If you just admit to some of the things that you've. You've done, as you say you didn't do, just to show that you're on. He's trying to now do reputation repair. So he's trying to create some humanity about himself. Right. So since I've admitted this part of it, people then will think, okay, well, he's not as bad because he did admit it. But, you know, when he's admitting it, you could see that when he was speaking, he was doing a lot of convincing rather than conveying, you know, the head nods like he would make these comments like, you know, when he was lying, he was trying to drill in those points. So that's it. And then he would. What did he do? He blamed it on the drug use. Right? Well, drug use is not a defense. It is not a defense in the court of law. So he had to create this second person. This is the drug addict, this is the attorney, this is the liar. And over here is this other person. Right.
- [18:19]
A
I'd love to get one. One more question about sort of what we saw at the end when Judge Newman was telling him, you know, talking to him. And, and it was after he had gotten the guilty verdict. What did you think of your thoughts on the, on his body language when Judge Newman was speaking with him?
- [18:41]
C
Yeah, it was really interesting. You saw him very still, right. His body language was collapsed. He was holding his body language very close to him. So when he was standing and then he, the, the verdict was delivered, right, with the guilty, guilty, guilty. You saw like no affect. So no affect is an affect. So we see no emotion. Doesn't mean that there. That doesn't mean that that isn't significant. I think he had already conditioned himself that that is what that verdict was going to be beforehand. So it wasn't like, you know, he threw his head back sometimes. We'll see people going, oh, my God, I can't believe it. You didn't see that with him. Murdoch is so narcissistic that he doesn't accept the. No, he still is fighting. He's not going to agree at the verdict was exactly was right. Because he still said he didn't do
- [19:34]
A
it well, and he said it was. That it was at the sentencing. I hope Maggie and Paul visit you at night. And he said they do.
- [19:43]
C
I'm sure that they do. And he's thinking about it.
- [19:45]
A
Well, I hope everybody buys your book. What's. What is your top tip right now? That you could clue us in on how to spot a liar for going amongst. Amongst ourselves in the world here. What's your top tip?
- [20:01]
C
Yeah, the top tip is don't look at one cue and determine deception. Not even two cues. You need to have at least three indicators among like the face, the body, the voice, the psychophysiology within Seven seconds of a stimulus. And the other thing is it has to be of high stake. So if somebody is really threatened, like I really have to pull this off and be really good at it. That the cognitive load, because that's what we're looking for, cognitive load.
- [20:30]
A
It's so fascinating, Susan. You know, and it's, it, you know, begs the question, do you think he will take the stand again?
- [20:39]
C
I. You do? I do.
- [20:41]
A
Because you just can't resist, right?
- [20:43]
C
I, you know, when he's looking at the prosecutor and he's disagreeing, there's a lot of disagreement in his facial expressions. And you could just see go, he's just kind of bouncing in his chair, right? And he's like just wanting to get up, going. Objection, your honor. You know, you can just sit and he's trying to contain it. And that's why he's self soothing, right? He's self soothing. He's rocking. And I think it's gonna be very hard because I think he's going to spin a new tale. We just don't know what that is, is. But, you know, you and I are gonna be sitting there right there on sidelights, watching and talking about it.
- [21:15]
A
I think so. I think so. I, I think that too. That's why I wanted to hear what you thought. I, I think he won't be able to resist getting up there and, and trying to convince the jury knowing that he can. This time it'll be different. Drop a comment below. What did you notice about the way Alec Murdoch moved and his body language? Were there any other telling signs that we didn't talk about? I'd love for you to drop it in the comments so we can look at it. And be sure to like and subscribe and turn on your notifications because I am going to be updating the Murdoch story as it unfolds.
- [21:51]
C
Sam.