Criminology Podcast: Introducing Mind Games

Hosts: Emash Digital, Mike Ferguson, Mike Morford
Date: February 11, 2026

Overview

This special episode of Criminology offers a preview of the upcoming investigative podcast Mind Games, which uncovers the controversial origins and legacy of Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP). Listeners are introduced to the murky world of NLP—a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology—through firsthand accounts from early participants and commentary on key figures, such as Richard Bandler and John Grinder. The episode sets the stage for a deep dive into the science, scandals, and true crime aspects of NLP’s rise from a 1970s New Age commune to corporate boardrooms—amid shocking ethical breaches and a notorious murder trial.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Birth and Promises of NLP

• NLP began as a radical blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology, promising individuals control over their emotional states and the potential to “hypnotize” oneself or others for self-improvement or influence.
• The method’s founders, Richard Bandler and John Grinder, are described as enigmatic and controversial—Bandler in particular presented as the “fake doctor” whose charisma attracted many followers.
  • “Mind Games is an investigation into the world of neuro linguistic programming...whose gruesome murder trial came, did little to stop its rise.” [00:00]

Early Experimentation and Group Dynamics

• NLP’s roots traced back to experimental therapy groups among university students in the 1970s, where participants tried innovative—sometimes invasive—psychological techniques on each other.
• Devra Cantor Morton and Jody Bruce, early “guinea pigs,” describe powerful, sometimes troubling, therapeutic experiences and group pressure to adopt NLP as a “way of life.”
  • Devra reflects, “I thought of suing them. I thought about putting sugar in their gas tanks.” [01:19]
  • Jody observes, “We worked on ourselves with each other, which was pretty brave… just these other people...we were suddenly baring our hearts to each other.” [02:42]

Techniques and Radical Approaches

• Utilization of “family reconstruction”—a technique borrowed from Virginia Satir—helped participants confront deep-seated trauma by roleplaying family dynamics.
• Emphasis on relentless, probing questions like “What stops you from doing that?” pushed participants to dissect their feelings but was criticized as invasive and cult-like by some.
  • Jody Bruce: “Maybe that’s where the word culty comes in… for this to work, it needed to be a way of life.” [03:36]
  • The host comments, “It honestly sounds so invasive. They would grill you about why you feel the way you feel…But the point was to help you realize you actually have more options.” [04:19]

Psychiatric Experiments and Ethical Gray Zones

• Bandler and Grinder brought their experimental methods to the Napa State Hospital, working with “extremely vulnerable people” and testing their techniques with minimal oversight.
  • “They were given free reign to test their ideas out on extremely vulnerable people.” [08:04]
  • One interviewee justifies: “Hey, at least we were trying something new instead of just giving up on these people.” [08:45]

Power, Manipulation, and Criticisms

• Accusations emerge of Bandler and Grinder using NLP techniques for manipulation and control—delighting in their ability to influence people, sometimes without their consent.
  • “It was a game for them to see how they could manipulate and control people… it was fun to have that kind of power.” [08:50]
• Multiple accounts refer to blurred boundaries between therapy and personal relationships; ethical breaches and romantic entanglements were not uncommon.
  • “Making out with a client as a therapist is a huge ethical breach.” [09:32]

The Christmas Party Incident (Key Segment—10:05 to 14:37)

• The most shocking moment recounted is the infamous 1974 Christmas party, where Devra, under the influence of mushrooms, is blindfolded, restrained on a cross, and presented with a simulated sacrificial scene as part of an “exercise.”
  • “I was standing up there with my legs and arms strapped onto a cross. I said, this is Christmas, not Easter. And I think Richard said, for whom?” [11:55]
  • The session ends with Devra having to free herself with a knife—framing the ordeal as a perverse therapeutic “gift.”
• Devra confronts Bandler and Grinder afterward, accusing them of violating her trust and ethics, prompting her to leave NLP forever.
  • “I was angry, just incredibly angry that I…been put in that position by people that I had trusted, that maybe I shouldn’t have trusted.” [13:23]

Aftermath and Legacy

• Debra becomes a marriage and family therapist but refuses to use any NLP techniques, citing issues with the founders’ ethics and personal safety risks.
• “I decided… not to have anything further to do with either of them.” [14:37]
• The preview closes noting these are firsthand accounts, with others corroborating some details. Both Bandler and Grinder declined to comment.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Devra Cantor Morton:

  • “I plotted revenge. I thought of suing them. I thought about putting sugar in their gas tanks.” [01:19]
  • “I went, no, I don’t [believe he loves me]... Maybe my father was telling me that he loved me in lots of different ways, that I wasn’t perceiving.” [05:36]

• Jody Bruce:

  • “We worked on ourselves with each other, which was pretty brave… we were suddenly baring our hearts to each other.” [02:42]
  • On cultish atmosphere: “Maybe that’s where the word culty comes in… for this to work, it needed to be a way of life.” [03:36]

• On the Christmas Party Ordeal:

  • Devra: “I was standing up there with my legs and my arms strapped onto a cross. I said, this is Christmas, not Easter. And I think Richard said, for whom?” [11:55]
  • “I was angry… that maybe I shouldn’t have trusted. Ethically, it didn’t seem right. They took my permission as my therapist to go too far.” [13:23]

• Host Commentary:

  • “It honestly sounds so invasive… but the point was to help you realize you actually have more options.” [04:19]
  • “Making out with a client as a therapist is a huge ethical breach.” [09:32]

Important Timestamps

• 00:00: Introduction to "Mind Games" and NLP
• 01:03: Early personal breakthroughs and group origins
• 02:42: Self-experimentation—students as both patients and therapists
• 03:36: Cult-like group pressure and loss of boundaries
• 05:20: “Family reconstruction” therapy and major personal insights
• 07:00–08:00: Move to experimentation in psychiatric institutions
• 08:50: Manipulation and ethical red flags
• 10:05–14:37: The Christmas party/cross incident—turning point
• 14:37: Devra’s exit from NLP and closing remarks

Summary

This preview episode for Mind Games paints a riveting, sometimes disturbing picture of NLP’s origins. Through vivid personal stories and critical analysis, it explores how radical self-experimentation gave way to troubling power dynamics, risky interventions, and enduring ethical questions. The immersive narrative is both a cautionary tale and an invitation to dig deeper into the shadowy intersections of psychology, power, and belief.

Find Mind Games on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get podcasts. New episodes Tuesdays.