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Professor Julian Womble (12:47)

Y'. All. I'm gonna begin this by being very honest with you. I do not like Snape. I don't like him. And there are a lot of reasons as to why I do not like him. That being said, when I had to think about my favorite moment involving him, I was like, hello. I don't know. And what's more is now that we're doing three episodes, I gotta come up with three favorite moments. Okay, challenge accepted. And so the first moment came to me as I was thinking about Prisoner of Azkaban, and I thought about the moment where. So it's kind of like one kind of overarching moment, right? So it's the moment where he walks into the Shrieking Shack and sees Sirius Black there with Remus Lupin. And just the sheer triumph that he has. I think there are very few moments where we're able to see Snape actually be victorious in a thing. And he was right. Like, Sirius was sneaking into the castle. And. And at least in that moment, it didn't look like Remus hadn't been helping him, right? And so that moment, for me, is one where I'm always like, you know what? Even a broke clock is right twice a day. That's a joke, everyone. It's a joke. I know that Snape has been right a number of times. I get it. I understand. And I appreciate that moment for him because I also know as a Slytherin, how much being right matters to us. And for someone who has been doubted and gaslit in a lot of ways by Dumbledore, by other people, it is a moment where I'm like, you know what, Severus? You deserve this. You deserve the triumphant moment of being right. And then that moment is followed up with, you know, Cornelius Fudge basically being like, we're going to give you a order of Merlin Second Class first if I can manage it right, he says. And Snape is like, wow. And I think that this moment really matters for Snape, which is why then, once it's all taken away, once they go back in time and they do the whole thing, is because Snape has spent such a considerable amount of his time doing everything in secret. He's been protecting Harry in secret. He's been a double agent in secret. He's been doing all of this surreptitious skullduggery. And this would have actually been a moment not only where he would have been able to best his bully, but to also get notoriety in a way that would not undermine or challenge any of the other things that he had going on in terms of the work he was doing for Dumbledore and all of the other stuff. And so it's a moment that he actually wanted to be in the front of it. Like, it was his Tell Cersei it was me moment. Like, he was going to be getting medals and he was going to be getting accolades and adulations, which I don't think he was used to for a number of reasons. And so I like this moment because I think it's a moment that also shows us that Snape is ambitious. And we know that because when he doesn't get it, he turns into this. He turns to a really petty space and basically outs Lupin as a werewolf, which is outlandishly problematic for a number of reasons and completely undermines so many things that he had done in that book, right? Like making the Wolfsbane Potion and basically coming off as someone who, you know, not necessarily cared for Lupin, but at least was willing to be helpful. And then to out him to the families and the parents is just such an awful thing to do. And I think it's one of the things that we love about Severus Snape, right, is that he actively contains multitudes. Like, he can be the same person who was making the Wolfsbane Potion to make sure that Lupin stayed in his right mind during his time at Hogwarts. He can be the same person who then shows up and is like, I am so excited that I'm the one who gets to turn you into the Dementors. And he can also be the same person who is like, I'm absolutely apoplectic that all the adulation I could have gotten I'm not getting anymore for reasons that I cannot explain. And so I'm gonna go and I'm gonna do the petty, petulant thing and I'm going to expose you for who you are. Which is problematic in that it makes things very dangerous for Lupin, Right? Like someone could have hurt him. You know what I mean? It makes Lupin's life more difficult. And I understand. And we're going to get into the bullying and all of that. I understand that. But I think I like that moment because moments, I should say, because they contain so much of the way that Snape operates and what he is capable of, both the good and the bad. And I think that a lot of our conversation in this episode is going to be us grappling with that kind of dichotomy and that really, truly gray space that he operates within.

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Professor Julian Womble (20:18)

When asked what word best describes Severus Snape, the top three words were complicated, selfish, and bitter. Okay, and so we're off to the races. I think complicated. 1000%. I think selfish. The thing that I like about Snape as a character is that I think what he forces us to learn is that we cannot, or maybe we should not try and understand him through a single lens. Because I think that there are ways that he is outlandishly selfish. But then there are other ways that I think he is outlandishly self selfless. And I think that when we think about the dynamic with Lily, for example, I'm seeing selfishness. I'm seeing absolute disaster as it pertains to that. And we're. I don't know that we're going to get into that, this episode. So that's a teaser. I know that there are some people who are ready, primed, prepared, and just ready to go to bat for that. Write it down, save it. We're gonna get there, I promise. I don't think this is the episode for it, though. But on the flip side of that selfishness, when I think about what he had to do to Dumbledore, that is a selfless act. That is an act of compassion. That is an act that he gains nothing from. If anything, he loses so much in that moment to make that particular choice. Now, we could talk about, you know, the fact that it solidifies his space as Voldemort's right hand person and all. We could talk about all of that. But to me, as I've read through your surveys and your essays and the comments on Patreon underneath the survey, which never happens, but there was a very lively conversation. If you haven't gone to read it, I highly recommend. When I think about all of that and when I think about Snape and I think about kind of who he is and I take him in his totality as much as I can, what I realize is in that moment, he is killing the only father he really ever knew. And that is not an easy thing. And he did it at the behest of Dumbledore, which makes it even more difficult. And I think that there is a way that we could spin it in a lot of different ways. But at the root of it, I am always. I'm not always. I am now very struck by the sacrifice that he had to make internally in order to fulfill Dumbledore's wish. And so, in that way, yeah, I can see the conversation surrounding his selfishness. And I think it is true, but it is not always true. And I think that that's going to be, again, the thing that we have to grapple with with Snape. Because the way that he is written, the way that he is presented is someone who contains a lot of yes, but or, well, actually moments. And I think that that's part of the tension that many of us feel as it pertains to him. Because there are the things that we glom onto, and none of it is unjustified and there. And we. So we hold on to those things. And so then those things become the lens through which we view everything else. And in some ways, I think that that's fair. And in other ways, I think that it's doing us a disservice for not necessarily seeing the good side or the bad side, depending on which side you're on. And so selfish is a word that I think is complicated. You see what I did there? And the third word was bitter. Yes, yes. I think we can all arrive at that word easily because it feels very true for Snape. I think his bitterness is his calling card. I think it's the thing that gets him up in the morning. I think it's the thing that drives him to make the decisions. It's certainly the thing that motivates him to treat adults, students, people a certain way. There is an understanding of how he exists in the world. And I think bitterness is the crux of that existence, which is such a sad thing. But I think that he exists that way, and I think that that's right. So, yes, he is complicated. Yes, he can be sometimes selfish. And I think he is a very, very bitter, traumatized man. And so these words feel very apropos to me, and I'm excited to kind of think about them as we move into our arithmancy lesson. Y', all. I'm out of practice. I realized as I was preparing for this episode, I almost forgot what our structure was. Silly me. I had to go back and listen to an old episode so that I could Remember how to do this. But I'm back. Okay, we're back and we have to get ready for the arithmancy lesson. For today's arithmancy Lesson we had 550 responses. And as always, the first question is is Severus Snape a good person? About 67% of us said no. I know that some of you thought I was going to say yes, but no. 67% said no. About 17% said yes and about 17% said don't. No. Someone wrote, severus was not a nice man but he was in an ultimate sense a good person in that he loved deeply and was prepared to sacrifice his life. You have to have true conviction and purpose to do what he did in infiltrating the Death Eaters as a double agent. Another person wrote, it's Snape's love for Lily that not only reframes his entire life but the whole series for me, without Snape's protection, Harry dies much sooner. Without his sacrifices, Voldemort wins. Someone else wrote, I think he's a wonderful character, but a terrible person. A 13 year old's worst fear should not be their teacher. He can be a good spy all you want, but he's not a good person. And another person wrote, his obsession with Lily is incel behavior. Before the word existed, he never grew, never healed, never loved Harry for himself. That's not goodness, that's selfish obsession. What these comments, both that have come from the Patreon conversation as well as the survey bring up for me is something that we grapple with all the time when we think about some of these characters, which is the notion of doing a good thing doesn't mean that you are a good person. And I think Snape pushes this because we tend to have this conversation, particularly when we're talking about characters like Narcissa, right, where she defies Voldemort and tells him that Harry is dead when he is not so that she can get back to the scene of the battle. And we all acknowledge, right, that that doesn't undo what she's done. The difference between her and Snape is that Snape has done a lot of things that have been outlandishly helpful to the cause of bringing down Voldemort. The least of which is keeping Harry alive at the request of Dumbledore, right? In addition to all these other things that he has done, right. Many of which pertain to protecting Harry from himself, from other teachers, from circumstances, from failure. And so it's more than just one good thing. That Snape does, but when you juxtapose that particular reality. And yes, I do recognize that there are things that Snape does that are actually good, helpful. However, there are also things that he does that are bad, evil, vindictive, problematic, and they have nothing to do with Harry. They are being inflicted on other people. Right. And I think that, you know, this is where the bitterness comes in because I think that Snape is a person who is. Who allows his bitterness to dictate his behavior, not only towards Harry, but towards Hermione. And I know that some of us might say, well, Hermione reminds him of Lily. We don't know that. And what do we. And some of us might say, oh, well, you know, he's mad because Neville could have been the one who the prophecy was about and he could have then been the one who would have been the Chosen One and not Harry, which means that Lily wouldn't have died. That that may be, but we don't know. And I think that what is true for Snape, for a lot of us, is that like we do for many of the characters in these books, particularly the men, but that's because we're invited to do so by the author of this text. And I don't think that's an accidental thing. We are invited to fill in the blanks, to try and justify some of his behavior. And I, as you know, am a person who is very much of the mind. And many of you got on my case about this during this Lytherin episode and I had to course correct, I am very much of the mind, that there are instances where people just do messy, vindictive, petty things to be messy, vindictive and petty. And there is no reason for us to believe that some of what Snape got up to isn't that he is a very traumatized, bitter man who has very little outlets for the spaces and places in that he can place his emotional baggage. And he punishes the people who are put in his charge as his students. That is undeniable. What he does to Neville, trying to get him to potentially kill his toad. Problematic. When he looks at Hermione when she gets her teeth enlarged by the rogue spell and says, I don't see a difference. Bad. There's no way to spin it. There's no way to slice that. That is just bad. And so when we think about what this means, about whether or not he's a good person, it's like he does good things. But then the other thing that I have that I grapple With a little bit here is something that you all invite me to think about all the time, which is intentional. When we think about the past four houses that we've talked about and all of the things that make a person a good Gryffindor, a good Ravenclaw, a good Hufflepuff, even a good Slytherin. It was all about intention. It was all about whether or not you were doing the things that you were doing for good. And you know, I think Snape complicates that idea because was he doing it for good or was he doing it because he was asked by someone who was a father figure, who he trusted and who he legitimately cared for in the form of Dumbledore? And we're going to get into that in the reflection. But I think the thing that Snape offers us and really invites us to think about is how do we square the reality of what he means and represents to so many of these students with what he ultimately does. And it goes beyond just being a bad teacher. As one of the comments referenced, he is Neville's worst fear. You don't just get that by being a bad teacher. You know what I mean? Like that that's something. And upon learning that he doesn't course correct, he leans in, he punishes Neville. He punishes Neville and he punishes Neville because he. Because Neville did the assignment of what it meant to do a boggart and have to put Snape in his grandmother's clothes to laugh at him. And some of us might say, well, Lupin was wrong for that. Maybe, maybe. Then take it out on Lupin. Figure out a way to get back at Lupin. Oh, you did. Because then you basically set this essay so that people could figure out that he was a werewolf. Because that's what you wanted. You wanted to out him and you wanted the students to find out. And so, like, what we can see here, right, is that there are these. Yes. There is no denying that Snape sacrificed himself. That his plight as being a double agent was rife with issues and danger and fear and a level of disassociation that you have to have in order to be able to occlude the way that he does, in order to be able to bounce back and forth between the different worlds the way that he does. There are so many things that have to happen, right. He is complicated, but I don't think that he is good. And I. I think that he is a person who assisted in a good result in a meaningful and big way. But if we take what you all say to me all the time about intention to heart. I think that he was just a really great soldier and not necessarily a good person. He was great at taking orders, but I don't think if left to his own devices, he would have made some of the choices he ultimately made. And I think that the things that we do see him do that are problematic, particularly as it pertains to the emotional and mental destruction of certain students. That's real. And that has nothing to do with his double agent identity, has nothing to do with with any of the things and everything to do with the fact that he is externalizing his trauma onto students in the same way that he was experiencing those types of things when he was a child. And I know that we often will say hurt people, hurt people. That can be true. But we don't have to accept that as readers, as people, we don't have to accept that truth. We can acknowledge the trauma, but we don't have to accept the behavior. And I think that a lot of what Snape exhibits in many ways is unacceptable. And I think that we can also hold that in conversation with a lot of the good that he ultimately does because he was told to.

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Professor Julian Womble (37:51)

Is Snape a good teacher? About 79% of us said no. About 14% of us said said yes. And about 7% of us said don't no. Someone wrote. He's clearly a master of potions. And in a different environment, he could have been brilliant at teaching. If teaching were just about knowledge, he'd be excellent. Someone else wrote. I don't see it as an abuse in a strict sense. Harry wasn't starved or beaten. Snape gave him guilt, attitude and fear, yes, but he also prepared him for the real world in ways Codling could never. Someone else wrote. He is abusive. He humiliates students, bullies Neville, mocks Hermione and plays favorites. That's not teaching. Someone else wrote. He delights in tormenting children. That is not pedagogy. You don't get to call that teaching. You get to call that abuse. You know, this question is always one that very rarely brings us to a place place of chaos, but count on Severus Snape to be the one to really bring us there. I think that when it comes to. I think I want to kind of approach this from two different perspectives. Right. What he actually teaches the students and how he teaches the students. Because I think pedagogically they learn, you know, they have the skill set to be able to do things. Harry gets a good score on his owls in Potions. I want to say he gets. He doesn't get an O, he gets an E. I think he gets Exceeds Expectations. Right? Yeah. Because then he shows up and he can take potions with. With Slughorn. And so he clearly learned something in Snape's class. And we've all been in classrooms with teachers where we've learned the material and hated every single second of it. And so in some ways it invites us to think about what does it mean to be a good teacher. Is it all about the deliverables or is it about the experience? Because many of us also highlight the fact that, you know, Barty Crouch Jr. In the form of Mad Eye Moody, was an effective teacher. They learned about those unforgivable curses. Harry learned how to fight off the imperious curse. Would I say that he's a good teacher? No. He abused those kids. They were hobbling out. They were looking crazy. And so I think that there is a way to, again, kind of have to reconcile the space of someone who is effective at delivering the information to students in that way. I'd say that Snape is a good teacher. I think he's an effective teacher. I think he does his job. I think students walk out with a very solid knowledge of the things that they need to know. In the wizarding world, I would say that relative to other teachers in the castle, he's probably among the more effective in terms of what the students walk away with simultaneously, concurrently. And when you are a teacher and as a person who teaches young people, not primary school or secondary school, elementary school or middle school or high school, I teach college students. So these are adult people. But all. But still, you. Your job is to also create a space that isn't toxic, dangerous, mentally debilitating, emotionally stunting. Like, there is more. Because what you end up doing and what we see as true for, let's say, Neville is that what Snape puts Neville through makes Neville unable to effectively learn how to brew potions correctly. And what we know about Neville is that given the right circumstances, he is capable. But when you, as you as a teacher, spend most of your time deriding him and berating him and making him feel stupid and unable to, how is he supposed to learn? How is he supposed to grow? And that's Neville. And I'm purposefully using Neville as the example because I know that there are people who would say, well, you know, Harry triggers him. And the thing that stood out to me, and I was talking to my best friend who just read the Harry Potter books for the first time as an adult, as a mother, as a professor, and I was talking to her about this episode because I was like, girl, it's gonna be a time. Because I'm really gonna have to try to find a space that allows me to be truthful to how I feel about this character, but also acknowledge that there are other people who have differing opinions than me. And she said something to me that really stood out to me. And she said, I would never want my kid in a class with Snape. And I thought, well, damn, that's it, right? Like, I think that there is a way that, like, I would. And I don't have children. I wouldn't want my friends, kids, my nieces, my nephews. I wouldn't want any of them in the class with that man. I don't care what they learned. I would not want them in that space because he is a bully to them. He is a person who has not dealt with his trauma. I've shared lots of stories about the ways that I've experienced teachers who use their own experiences as a means by which to inform their pedagogy. And they can stunt your growth as a student. They can make you feel incapable. And especially when you're dealing with people that are that young and they have to be with you at least multiple times a week for seven years and know that all you're gonna do is make them feel less than. And the recognition of that and what that does to the psyche cannot be overstated. And again, I'm purposefully thinking of Neville in this case, because I do recognize that Harry brings out something different in Snape. And that's not an excuse, because Snape is, what, a grown man more than anything else. And I think that there is a way in which we are invited. Once we learn the truth of the circumstance, which we learn about the bullying. We are all very much of the mind that, like, not that it's Harry's fault per se, but that somehow Snape is incapable of. Of navigating the space in which he finds himself. And, you know, I'm less inclined to give him that level of grace. I think, again, he is a good, effective teacher. What he teaches to students is good. However, how he teaches them, the way that he makes them feel as he's teaching them, is just as important as what they walk out with. And this isn't one of those, like, tough love things where it's like, I fundamentally believe in you and believe in your ability to do it, and so I'm just gonna push you. I've had teachers like that. Like, I had a teacher who literally graded me terribly on a paper that I wrote. And when I went to him and asked, like, why? He said, because I know that you can do better, you just phoned it in, and that's unacceptable. So I graded you harshly. Now, now that I'm on the other side of the desk, I think that that's ridiculous, personally, because I'm like, that's such a subjective thing. But I understand why he did it, and I understand the, like, his own personal belief about my potential is why he was so hard on me. That's not what Snape is doing here. That's not what he's doing when Hermione is attacked and he says, I don't see the difference, y'. All. That's bullying. Bullying from a student who was his most capable, who was nailing it. And he didn't care about that. And that's another thing that's true, right, is that he did not care about Hermione and how good she was. He thought she was annoying. He thought she was problematic. And again, I know that there are some people who are like, well, that's just because she reminded him of Lily. We have no evidence of that. I'm gonna keep saying that because I'm trying to preempt some of the rebuttal from my criticism of him because. And I'm trying to stick to what we know and not the gaps that we filled in with our own beliefs, with the things that we want to be true. It's so funny. I'm writing a paper right now with my friend who just read the books, and one of the things that we find in this paper is that when there are gaps in knowledge, there is a way in which hope or desire can inform and motivate us to believe things that are simply not true. And I think that particularly for Snape, there are ways that some of us are very motivated to create narratives that really soften a lot of the facts that we are presented with. And I just find it interesting because we don't do that for other characters. But that's a different conversation for a different episode. It will come up, though. This was about whether or not he's a good teacher. And I think my stance on this is holistically, no, not at all. Because there's no reason why your student should be walking out traumatized. And not because the lesson was scary or. Or bad, or it was a difficult day or they all were afraid of taking the test. No, they were traumatized because you, as the instructor, as the person into whom's charge they were placed, treated them terribly. And so, like, if the bar is starving or beating, then the bar is in hell. And that is like, we would never, under normal circumstances. And I keep bringing up the real world, and I know that some people. This is fiction. This is fiction. True. It is, absolutely. But many of the people who are defending Snape are drawing from personal narratives in real life. And so I'm gonna do the same. I'm taking your lead on this. I think that there is a way that, like, we have to think about, would we want to take a class with him? It's not as if he just does this for some people. Like, this is not something that he just reserves for Harry and Neville and Hermione. He treats all of them, particularly the Gryffindors, this way. And again, so maybe if you were in Ravenclaw, you might be able to just have a normal class. But I don't know if that's the case either, because. And it returns back to the word that was brought up for Snape in the first place. He's bitter and he's angry, and there is a way in which I think he operates, and he just externalizes that, and he folds it into his Persona as a professor, as a bringer of knowledge. And I think it's unavoidable. And so I think when we think about this idea, would we want to have our kids, our nephews, our friends, children, our people, young people that we cared about? Would we want them in a class with this man? And if you say yes, what advice would you give that child to avoid his rancor? And don't you think that the fact that it's very possible that you would have to tell them how to navigate that as to not bring on his ire is telling in and of itself? And maybe I just feel very personal about this because I teach people, and I can't imagine a world where I would allow a colleague to treat students that way. Any capacity. I couldn't care less about your own trauma. Then don't teach. That's what my friend said. She said he shouldn't be a teacher. Like, people are traumatized. That is true. There's no denying it. There's no need for you to be in the classroom. There are other people who can teach this class. Look at Sluckhorn. He taught it and students learned. So it doesn't need to be you. If you are unable to manage your emotions in a way that is, like, good for you and good for the others around you, then maybe the classroom isn't the setting for you. There have to be other places that you can go and use your incredibly undeniable talent. This is not the one. And that's okay. Like, that's an okay thing to recognize and be true. What's not okay is that you take children, and even if it's just one child, and honestly, like, to me, the why of it is inconsequential to the reality of it. Like, these are children. And this is something that we say all the time, particularly a critique leveraged against me all the time, is that these are children. That is true. These are children. And we have to ask ourselves how comfortable we would be if any child, whether you knew them or not, was in a classroom with someone who behaved and engaged them the way that we see Snape engage with these students.

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Professor Julian Womble (53:07)

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Professor Julian Womble (54:12)

The last question that we are going to be engaging with for this episode is, is Severus Snape a good Death Eater? About 64% of us said no. About 24% of us said yes and about 12% of us said don't know. Someone wrote he was skilled, ruthless and Voldemort trusted him completely. That makes him a good Death Eater. Someone else wrote Snape rejected Mud Blood later in life, which shows growth. He wasn't a true believer in Voldemort's cause anymore. He had the cunning ploy to play both sides. Someone else wrote he was never committed to Voldemort's ideology. He used the Death Eaters as much as they used him. Another person wrote, snape is anti Voldemort, but not anti supremacy. His allegiance was always personal, never ideological. That's not redemption, it's survival. So, okay, this is interesting to me because my immediate answer to this question is, is he a good Death eater? I mean, I feel like you all when I ask these questions because in part I'm like, yeah, like, Voldemort trusted this man. He undermined Voldemort. But like, to the extent that Voldemort believed him to be a good Death Eater, he was. And so like, but he. This is hard. This is a hard question. Who came up with this question? Because this is a Hard one, because I think that everyone is. Every one of the points that have been made and the other ones who have been made in other comments speaks to this kind of weird space. Like, he is trusted, he is the right hand man of Voldemort and yet he also completely undermines him left and right from the beginning, right? But it is interesting because Voldemort's like, no, that's my guy. Which would suggest, like, he thinks he's a good Death Eater. Like he trusts this man implicitly as much as Voldemort, as our dear beloved Voldiva, as much as he can trust anyone. He trusts Snape. And we know that that's true because that's why Bellatrix is so jealous of Severus because he gets all of Daddy's attention and Voldadi, ooh, he gets all of Voldadi's attention and she wants it bad and she looks for any reason to defame him. And yet he is still in on all of the secrets. He is still the one that Voldemort goes to and asks questions because he isn't effective double agent. And I think that there is a way that like that to me is indicative of the fact that, yeah, we actually don't know where his politics lie. I think to me it feels like a bit of a stretch to say that his rejection of the term mudblood is a sign that he doesn't hold the ideology anymore or even that he never held it in the first place. And I don't know about that. I mean, it is possible that he was loyal to Voldemort in the same way that he is loyal to Dumbledore and that it really has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with Daddy issues, right? And like that might explain for us why he behaves the way that he behaves and why he sees things the way that he does and why he acts the way that he does. Like, I mean, maybe it's just daddy issues made manifest. Maybe he did hold these views, right? Like, maybe he was radicalized in Slytherin House. And you know, I think that what is true about supremacists is that they can always have exceptions to their rule, right? Like they can always change things. And is it the, is his rejection of the word mud blood because he changed ideologically or because he, it's a reminder of the consequences that he had to pay for using it for Lily. And I would never, I would never assume that not saying a word is a sign of anything other than some sort of like, personal choice that you've made, right? Like, it's very possible that he stops saying it. He, he, he doesn't like the word because he just, it triggers him in, in his remembrance of, like, this is where I messed up in losing someone that I cared about. Right. I think that there is a. Like, when I think of the real world equivalent of that word, I'm like, there are a lot of white supremacists that don't use the N word, but they're still white supremacists. Or we've never heard them use it, but they may even get mad at other people who use it not because they don't agree with the word, but because it makes them look bad. I think there's a way, I don't know about that as a justification. Simultaneously, we don't actually have any evidence that he is someone who is a Pure Blood supremacist. And so again, I'm kind of like caught in the space of like, well, maybe his attachment to death. The Death Eaters at the onset was really born out of being radicalized, being lonely and needing a father figure like Barty Crouch Junior. And this has nothing to do with Pure Blood supremacy. And then we get the point. You know, he wasn't a true believer in Voldemort's cause. And that may be true, but I do think that at the time he was a true believer in Voldemort. Because if you weren't a true believer in his cause, if you didn't, if you were just there for to be there, why would you, why would you have asked him then to spare her? You believed that you were close enough to this person that he would take pity on you enough to spare this person that you cared about. And what's fascinating is Voldemort tries. And this I think speaks more to again, how much Voldemort legitimately, I won't say cared, but how he regarded Snape because he legitimately tried. He tells Lily, get out of the way. Get out of the way multiple times. When we get the flashback in Deathly Hallows, he actively is trying to move her out of the way. He wants her out of the way for Snape. And so to me, you don't do that for someone who's not a good Death Eater. And I think Voldemort also in the graveyard upon once he gets it. Somebody said, when Voldemort got his body done, and I love that turn of phrase, when he got his body done and he's in the graveyard, he is kind of sad at the prospect of having lost Snape forever, he says. And I think that, like, I think Snape is as close to a friend as Voldemort is capable of having truly. And I think that there are a lot of reasons why I think that there is. And so maybe the connection isn't one that's ideological, but at the end of the day, I think that Voldemort sees Snape and thinks he's a good Death Eater. And like, I don't know, who am I to disagree with Voldadi, y'? All, that is a really crazy thing to call him. But, well, for all of the Death Eaters who have daddy issues, he really was Voldadi. And I think that Snape falls into that number. And I know that this is going to cause a little bit of a wrinkle in some people's perspectives and the post episode chat's probably going to be too lit to quit because of this particular section, but I don't know. I think my gut reaction to the question is, yeah, he's a good Death Eater. He's a good Death Eater. Even if he completely undermines so much of what Voldemort is trying to do. He simultaneously, for his cunning, for his, you know, all these things, he gains Voldemort's trust more than any of the other people. It's Snape. And for someone like Voldemort, you don't just get that trust because you have a cute face and a nice smile. You know what I mean? Like, you've got to do some things to prove it. And I think that Snape did at some point. And Doug, here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu.

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Professor Julian Womble (65:26)

We've now reached the moment in the episode where I'm going to reflect on Snape. This reflection is going to be a little bit different because so many of you gave voice to the fact that you wanted to hear from each other. And so I wanted to make sure that I included as many passages from the Patreon, from the surveys as possible. So we're going to start this reflection with that and then from there I will move into my reflection. Someone wrote Severus was not a nice man. He was consumed by bitterness and unkind to almost everyone. He was, in an ultimate sense, a good person in that he loved deeply and was prepared to sacrifice his life for that on a daily basis and with his last breath. You could argue he does more for the Order of the Phoenix than anyone in terms of the danger he puts himself in and the amount of effort and skill and the information he brings. You have to have true conviction and purpose to do what he did in infiltrating the Death Eaters as a double agent. Yes, of course joining a supremacist group in the first place was wrong and he should be held accountable for that. But for Severus, that wasn't the end of the story and I stand by that. One of the most powerful moments in the entire series was when Harry learns the truth about Snape in the Pensieve and Deathly Hallows. Someone else wrote, I think he's a wonderful character but a terrible person. I can appreciate the risk of his life to spy for the Order and his attempts to protect Harry when he could, but I cannot and will not condone his bullying. He is constantly undermining and emotionally abusing the Gryffindors and in particular Harry and Neville. You know, there is something very, very wrong when a 13 year old's greatest fear is his teacher. You can be a good spy and all you. You can be a good spy all you want, but he's not a good person and he is frankly a terrible teacher. And someone else wrote he is both villain and hero. It's villainous to be a bully and verbally and to verbally abuse your students. What he says to Hermione, a teenage girl in book four, is disgusting. However, I think him killing Dumbledore was a heroic act. He protected Draco and saved Dumbledore from a slow and painful death. Also, he risks himself to protect Harry with no recognition. Doing good with no expectation of being recognized or rewarded is heroic to me. These passages capture the contradictions that define sacrifice and cruelty, courage and pettiness, loyalty and obsession. Which brings us back to the central does his ultimate sacrifice absolve him of the harm he inflicted as a teacher and and as a man? Because here's the truth, y'. All. How you die doesn't redeem how you lived. Snape's sacrifice deserves acknowledgment. What he did was brave, but bravery and death does not erase cruelty in life. For years, Snape was not a double agent. He was simply a bitter man lashing out at children. He allowed his trauma to dictate his actions and in doing so, traumatized other Trauma explains him, but it doesn't excuse him. And he was not a child. He was an adult put in charge of children. And he leveraged his power over them in ways that scarred their lives. That cannot be undone by the revelation in the Prince's tale. At least not for me. We've talked in other episodes about Arrested Development, particularly with Sirius. We often describe how the band froze him in time, how his immaturity makes him volatile. Snape is frozen, too. His trauma, his bullying, his abusive home kept him locked in bitterness. But the distinction is how we often hold our good characters to higher standards. Sirius is often, often judged much more harshly because he's presented as a hero. Snape, on the other hand, was always presented as a villain. So the bar was low. And when the bar is low, almost anything can look monumental. And I don't say that to take away from what he did, because he did a lot of really, really important, necessary and, dare I say, good things. So let's not miss the positives. Without Snape, Voldemort would not be defeated. Harry definitely would have died sooner, maybe in his first year. The silver Doe that led him to the Horcrux wouldn't have come. The intelligence Snape delivered saved lives. He took an unbreakable vow to protect Draco and he obeyed Dumbledore's impossible orders, including killing him. And these extraordinary feats matter a lot. And that is the incredible thing about the character that is Severus Snape is that simultaneously he can be such a horrific person to the people who, in theory, need him most will also, behind the scenes, be protecting some of them. I mean, I haven't even brought up the idea that he, you know, wasn't really giving veritasarum to students. Right. Like there is a moral something going on there he's not devoid of is just when he decides to do it. That, I think always gives me pause. And I think the other thing that is really important, and I alluded to it earlier, is that so many of the things that we tend to laud him for, that he tends to get our praise for, are done at Dumbledore's behest. Which raises a deeper question. Would Snape have done these things voluntarily? Was his intention ever truly to bring down Voldemort? Or. Or was his intention simply loyalty to Dumbledore? We've spent so much time asking, what does it mean to be a good Slytherin, a good Hufflepuff, a good Ravenclaw, a good Gryffindor? And as I said earlier, intention has always been so central to that. Were you acting out of loyalty? Out of courage, out of justice? So what do we think Snape's intentions were? If his choices were born of loyalty to Dumbledore or guilt over Lily, or even selfishness, then does he deserve the same moral credit as someone who acted for the good of the world? Was the outcome good? Yes. But was the intention good? Y'? All? I honestly do not know. And I'm simply using the rubric that you all give me every single time. Every single time. Like, if you want evidence that this is the expectation that you all have, please go back to the Houses episode and listen to the descriptions of what it meant to be an admirable member of any of the Houses. It was all about intention. And when I think about intention, it's where Snape becomes deeply unsettling. He is a grown man, a teacher, someone with power and authority over children, and he weaponizes it. He humiliated Hermione. He terrorized Neville. He punished Harry for the sins of his father in ways that none of them could fight back. Yeah, like Harry got in a couple jabs here and there. I should have said. One of my favorite moments is when he's like, no need to call me Professor Sir Sassy Harry. But that's not the same. Harry doesn't have that kind of power. And we are constantly reminded of it because whenever he calls Snape, Snape in front of Dumbledore, Dumbledore always says, Professor Snape. Right? Always reminding him that this person has more power than you do. Snape found power in reliving the past through children who could not escape him. And that is insidious. So where does it leave us for this episode? With both truths. Snape was extraordinary in his sacrifice and horrifying in his cruelty. He was courageous in war and abusive in peace. He helped end Voldemort and scarred the children in his care. And we don't have to reconcile those truths. We don't have to pick sides. We don't have to be either a Snape hater or a Snape sympathizer. We can hold those truths together. We can say, yes, he risked everything and yes, yes, he ruined lives, yes, he saved Harry, and yes, no matter what the epilogue says, he also destroyed parts of him. And I think that the way that we are presented with Snape is done in such a way that we are so willing to forgive him. Because, again, he's presented to us as a villain at the onset. And some of us are like, when you are presented with someone who is bad, the impulse is, why are you this way? And we learn why Snape is that way. And the question remains, and it is one worth asking at the end of the reflection, and it's the same question that we asked at the beginning. Does Snape's ultimate sacrifice absolve him of the harm he inflicted while he lived? For me, I'm not as magnanimous as Harry at all. I'm not as forgiving as some of you. And I love that you all are forgiving. I love that you all have found beautiful ways to make this character worthy of that forgiveness, worthy of revisionist history, worthy of stories that fit and explain why he does the things that he does. You all are more evolved than me. And I'm so grateful to be in community with you all so that I can learn, maybe someday, somehow, perhaps, how to be that person. But for me, the answer is no. His actions matter and his sacrifices matter too. But so does his cruelty. So does this bitterness. So does this misplaced aggression. And to me, none of those things erases any of the other things. They all exist together. And I think that we have to find a way to accept that. What an episode. And this is only the first of three. Good Lord, y' all pray to whatever divine being, if there's one you pray to. Pray for me. This has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory. I'm Professor Julian Womble, and if you liked today's episode, first of all, thank you. Please feel free to, like, rate, subscribe and do all the things that one does where pods are cast, y'. All. This is the first of three, so I cannot wait to see what you all bring to bear in the post episode chat. For this episode. I also can't wait to see what we get into for the next two episodes. Please remember, if you haven't joined us on Patreon, please feel free to do so patreon.com criticalmagictheory if you haven't followed me on social media and you are there, please feel free to follow me on Instagram Prof. JW on TikTok ProfW. The lectures are back y'. All. We're in it. And thank you so much again for your vulnerability and your willingness to share your thoughts with me about this very contentious character. Can't wait to see what else we get into. Until then, be critical and stay magical, my friends. Bye.