← Critical Magic Theory: An Analytical Harry Potter Podcast
Critical Magic Theory: An Analytical Harry Potter Podcast
Lavender Brown: Messy? Maligned? or Misunderstood?
01:19:45
Loading summary
Transcript43 lines
- [00:00]
Professor Julian Womble
Welcome to Critical Magic Theory, where we deconstruct the Wizarding world of Harry Potter. Because loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julian Womble, and today, y'all, today we are going to be diving in to Queen Lab Lab herself, protector of bunnies everywhere, the girlfriend of Wan Juan, the one, the only, Lavender Brown. Now, I have to say that many of us came with a lot of angst, a lot of derision, disdain for our girl Lavender. And I can't wait to dive in, because you know that I love chaos. And I wanted our last pureblood survey to be one that brought chaos. And you said, is that what you want, Julian? Then that's what we're gonna give you. Some of you wrote me on Patreon and wrote me in my DMs on Instagram that you thought you didn't have anything to say about lavender, but then you found it, and didn't you find. The responses we got for this episode were incredible, and I can't wait to share some of them with you, because I feel like there was a lot more chaos than even I expected. And I expected chaos because when you're dealing with someone as chaotic as Lavender, it's like you can't not have chaos. And yet somehow you all upped it again, as you often, always do. Often, always do. Okay, you get it. Often, always. You get it. Okay. Someone is judging me right now, and I don't like that, but I respect that. Y'all, this is going to be such a fun episode, because there are so many things about Lavender that I think are open to interpretation and open to investigation. And I think that there are ways that we need to think about how we approach this particular character and the way that we understand our own Conditioning by J.K. rowling to understand who she is. Have you ever wondered whether Lavender always had feelings for Ron or how relatable she is to us as readers, even if we don't want her to be, or why the fandom is so hard on her? Y'all, we are getting into every single one of those things in this episode. Lavender is gonna be our last Pure Blood. Because so many of you have come into my DMs and told me that y'all are over it, that you want to move on to the Half Bloods because that's where the meat and potatoes are. And I said, you know what? You got it. There are going to be a few extra kind of maybe mini bonus episodes that I'm going to do on a couple of other purebloods that we didn't get to, that you all have requested. But as for the surveys, this is it for us, all right? We are done with purebloods. We made it through. And I feel like this is the perfect person to do this with because it does not get any more chaotic than lavender. She brings such a. She brings such an energy to the series, particularly Half Blood Prince, when we really get to spend a considerable amount of time with her. She also, though, invites us to have to confront some of our biases. She invites us to have to confront the way that we've been socialized in these books by J.K. rowling, to view her character a very specific way. And she also invites us to think about why. Why is it that we see her the way that we do? Many of us acknowledge the fact that she's just a teenage girl, but then we would say that and then drag her for filthy. And I'm wondering, you know, it's such an interesting thing for us because I wonder to the extent to which many of us either forgot what it was to be 16 or we remember, and we're doing a little revisionist history as to our own experiences as 16 year olds. However you want to slice it or dice it, y'all. There's a little bit of lavender in all of us, and I hate to be the one to say it, but there is. And there are also some really beautiful things about lavender that we have conceptualized negatively, namely, because many of us view her through the lens of an author who hates femininity, and we view her through the lens of characters who also, because they are the byproducts of this author's ideology, don't like her. But don't worry, we're getting into every bit of it. And we are so fortunate because I got to sit down and have a chat with one of the chronic overthinkers from Patreon, Cassie, who brought it so hard, y'all. I was shaken to my core. I got a completely new outlook on this character, and there. There's a take that she took that took us all the way there. Okay? And I can't wait for you all to hear it, because I think that some of it really holds a mirror up to us, and I don't know that some of us are gonna like it. And that's okay, because part of critical thinking is sometimes being uncomfortable with the truths that the thinking brings about. But before we get. We get comfy or uncomfy, you know what we have to do you know what has to happen, we have to bop along to the theme song, y'all. This is. Well, I don't know if this will be our last pure blood bop, but, you know, the fun never stops. Hashtag bars. But this is. This is an important one for us. And I think that this is a moment where we just need to really stretch and get ourselves together. Because the reflections that we're about to have to do might be taxing for us. And so we've gotta get those endorphins up. Okay? And so let's get to bopping in three. In two, in one. Let's go. We need to talk about Harry Potter, y'all. I hope you danced and I hope you really, like, got down. Okay. Unless you are driving, in which case your eyes need to be up and on the road. Focus. 10 and 2, 5 and 7. You know the rules. You know that I will not be to blame. I also want to say that I don't want you dropping it low if you can't get back up. Someone said that that was their story and I said, okay. And I need you all to have a level of discernment about whether or not that's your story. If you can. If you've got Megan thee stallion knees and you can, like, get yourself back up. Good on you. If it so happens that you did drop a low and you can't get back up, you always need to make sure that you have your phone nearby. Okay. And that you are at least home. I recommend dropping it low on your bed so that if you can't get back. That did not sound right, but you get what I'm saying. So that you can just lay down. Okay. I don't want to hear don't anyone get on the Patreon talking about this particular moment. Okay? It was a recommendation that was meant to be helpful. Oh, get your minds out of the gutter. Okay. Immediately. Good goodness you all, please. Oh, my gosh. I want to take this time to welcome any new listeners who have joined us. Either you've just caught up, you've been away for a while, or you just miss being with us over the last couple of weeks in between episodes. Welcome. I also want to take this time to thank those of you who joined us in the post episode conversation about Merope Gaunt. Y'all. If you haven't checked it out, I highly recommend doing it. It's one of the things that I love the most and that we have really kind of risen to the occasion on which is finding so Many beautiful nuances in characters that we don't spend a lot of time with. And many of us had a lot to say about what we discussed in the episode on Merope and you all brought it to the conversation and it was so good and so nuanced and so interesting. And it's just been so much fun to kind of watch that particular aspect of our community grow. And I love it even more when it's characters that we just think, oh, we don't have a lot to say and yet you find things to say and you share it with one another and it allows us all to kind of grow in our understanding of so many things. And I think that that is so incredible. So if you are interested in joining us in the post episode chat, I've also started doing this kind of question of the week thing, which is basically just me asking chaotic, crazy questions that you all can spend your time answering. I normally drop them on Sundays at 10am and they're just a lot of fun. It allows us to kind of just operate and nerd out outside the context of any individual episode and just be the big Harry Potter nerds that we are. And I really enjoy that and creating that space. And if you are interested in joining as a paid subscriber, because all of the things that I've discussed thus far can be accessed via Patreon for free. But if you want to join as a deep diver or a chronic overthinker, please feel free to do so. We have a lot of perks there for you and y'all. We had a meeting as chronic overthinkers a couple of weeks ago and it was one, so much fun, and two, we had a really great conversation about what our expectations are for the TV show, y'all. We have experts in our midst, okay, who are aware, who know what's going on in the Hollywood UK spaces and were able to give us incredible insights. Just not necessarily about the show specifically, but about, you know, the process and who's involved, who gets to call the shots. I was taking notes, okay, because I was educated and it was so cool to just have that conversation and chat with people who are just as invested in, you know, thinking about these things as I am, which was a lot of fun. We spent a considerable amount of time the last hour discussing what we think the goal of Hogwarts education actually is. We're meeting this month and we're gonna be talking about the Statute of Secrecy. We're gonna be talking about, you know, the mentality of magical people and the way that that informs how they view themselves, y'all. It's just gonna be such a good time. So if that's something you're interested in, the more the merrier. We've had some new people join us last time, and it was so much fun to have new faces and join us with the OGs and really hope that if that's something that you're interested in, that you will take an opportunity to do that. Patreon.com criticalmagictheory Again, if you're interested in joining, as a financial subscriber, I recommend doing that on your website browser because doing it in the app will bring on extra charges. So I don't recommend doing that. But I do want to take this moment to thank those of you who have joined us as Chronic Overthinkers. So a special thanks to Abby, to Stephanie, to Meg, to Bailey, to Sabrina, to Jay, to Jackie, to Angelica, Emma, Sarah, Lauren, Annie, Rachel, and Dana. Thank you all so much. I hope that you all can join us for our February Virtual Hang. It is such a good time. And, like, I'm. I'm organized now. I'm not. Or I'm not organized now that I'm not, but I'm organized now. And so there's like, an agenda. Not really, but there's a topic that we will be talking about, so it's gonna be a good time. There is a doodle poll that is on the Patreon for Chronic Overthinkers. Please feel free to check that out, fill it out so we can get a date that will be optimized for everyone. What else was I gonna say? Oh, also this episode, I noticed that some of us were writing your responses in whatever language is most comfortable for you. Please feel free to keep doing that. I have Google Translate, y'all. I'm not afraid of seeing a language that I don't necessarily understand. And honestly, this was great practice for me because the people who did it wrote in Spanish, and I used to be, like, really good at Spanish. And then I stopped because I didn't have to take it anymore. And so I was actually very proud of myself because I didn't use Google Translate. I just translated it myself. And I was very proud of myself. So if you would like to contribute to me getting better at Spanish or introducing me to another language, please feel free to do that. I know that some of you may not feel comfortable doing that. That's also okay. But I don't want you to feel like you have to write in English. I can figure out a way to translate it. Google Translate is real. And if it so happens that the translation is not as good, you know, we'll figure that out when we have to. But I don't want you to feel confined to have to say things in English if that is not comfortable for all. Right? If the Patreon and all these other things are too much for you, then please feel free to, like, rate, subscribe, share with people who you think would be interested in this podcast. A little goes a long way. Some of you have been so kind as to write things in Apple Podcasts about the podcast, which we love. Many of you are rating on both Apple Podcasts and Spotify, which is where many of you are listening. Um, you can. If you're listening on Spotify, this is important, and I want you to remember this. You can, like, write your thoughts in Spotify. Like, you can write what you thought about the episode in Spotify. And I read them and sometimes I respond, and I'm gonna be responding more. So feel free to do that as well. Also, feel free to get some merch, y'all. I have really been out here with my tote bag, with my hoodie, with my hat. Really showing off for us, all right? And so all of those things are available in the merch store. If you go to criticalmagictheory.com, you'll see merch up in the upper right hand corner. Click that boom. All right, it's there. It's also in my link tree. If you follow me on social media, please feel free to check it out. The stuff is good. Like, everyone who has gotten it is, like, the quality of this is so much better than I thought. And I said, right, so y'all, don't be afraid. There is something for everyone. There's stickers, there's mugs. My dad told me to tell you all that the mug is really good, and he likes using it because it keeps his coffee hot for long and it's a good size. And if that's not a ringing endorsement, I don't know what is. So listen, if you want something that has critical magic theory on it, it's there for you. If you want something more subtle that doesn't have critical magic theory on it, it's there for you. There are mugs, there's all the things. Check it out. Just let me know. And lastly, like I said before, this is our last Pureblood episode. The next episode is gonna be an overview. It's gonna be kind of like we did for the weasleys like, the superlatives, like, best and worst of, but for all the people that we've talked about, for all the purebloods. And I think that's gonna be so much fun because, y'all, it's just gonna be a revisiting of the chaos that you all have brought over the past year and, like, some change. So I'm excited for that. And then we're diving in to Half Bloods, like, just going straight into it. And I'm not gonna tell you who it is. The Chronic Overthinkers already know, because we. I gave them the full list, basically the year's worth of episodes I gave them in our last meetup. So they already know they're in on it. And they gave me the stamp of approval. So I feel really good about everything that I have planned. I think it fits into what many of you gave me on the Patreon about how you thought things should be structured. I did my best to kind of keep it grouped together, but also, there's a flow, and the person that we're starting with is a really solid, chaotic person, and it flows really well with what we've been up to. So I'm excited, but I'm keeping it a secret until the next episode. If you're a Chronic overthinker, I highly invite you to go check out that last meeting we had. Huh? And just scroll right to the end. It's there for you. When I thought about one of my favorite moments with Lavender Brown, there are a number of them, but the one that I love the most is actually one of the ones where she kind of really rises to our consciousness of her, which is in Prisoner of Azkaban when she finds out that her rabbit, Binky has passed away because he was eaten. And I love this moment because I think one of the things that I really enjoy about Lavender Brown is that she seemingly is very unapologetically herself. Right. Like, I think a lot of us in our comments said things like, she's just a teenage. And so she's, you know, over the top and super girly and all these things. But I think that while J.K. rowling clearly wrote this character to be someone who we as readers would not like, because relative to Hermione, she's just too much. And relative to a lot of the other characters, particularly women and girl characters that we enjoy, she's too much. She, outside the context of this particular kind of conditioning, is very much herself, and she doesn't care. She's a girl who likes gossip She's a girl who feels feelings, who is willing to kind of have a breakdown and cry. She's a girl who loves Divination and is willing to attribute, you know, a lot of things that most of us aren't willing to attribute to Professor Trelawney. And I think that the moment where she is told what happened to Binky and Hermione is basically really pushing her on this. And it's kind of like, girl, divination is fake. This is. You're doing all this stuff and, like, whatever, I feel bad for you. But also, why are you, like, attributing it to this kind of flimsy form of magic? And lavender's just kind of like, I'm feeling this girl. And she doesn't get angry at Hermione. She's just like, I'm sad. And you may not be able to understand that or appreciate that, but, like, that's where I'm at. And I really, really, really, really love that because I think that it kind of sets the stage for who we understand her to become when we meet her again in much more force in Half Blood Prince. And I think that there's something really amazing to be said about how she operates as a person who is just like, this is what I feel. This is who I am, and this is what you're gonna get. And even though, you know, everyone at Hogwarts and all the readers kind of are like, girl, it's too much. Calm down. I love that there's that representation in these books. I love that there's a person who just feels the. Feels and just feels what they are kind of experiencing and is willing to share it. And I think that what happens so often in these books is that it really takes, you know, something crazily traumatic, like somebody, you know, dying, for us to really experience high levels of emotion. We see Harry, Ron and Hermione spend a considerable amount of time kind of repressing how they feel. And the only time that we normally get it when it comes out is in the form of anger. And so I think there's something really healthy and important about having a character who is just like, no, I'm sad because my Bunny died, and I'm trying to make sense of this moment. And the way that I can make sense of it is leaning into what you may call irrational. What you may think is silly, but to me, it's real and it's important, and it's helping me figure things out. And, you know, I think when we experience her in that moment, we're all like, well, Professor Trelawny's a fraud. Hermione is our queen. And McGonagall said, Divination is trash. So, girl, get your life together. But there's something so beautiful, I think, about divination going against the grain and feeling what you feel, no matter what other people are prescribing for you. Because I don't think that Hermione's like, you shouldn't be sad. But she's like, you shouldn't be sad because you think this was like preordained. And Lavender's like, that's how I'm making sense of the world. And I think that there are lots of lessons to learn from that and that, you know, it's easy for us to be super judgmental of a 13 year old girl trying to figure out, you know, what's happened to her. Bunny. Because we know as readers that the source of some of these things is not someone who is particularly, particularly reputable. But I love that she said, I don't care. I'm gonna do what I want to do. And if you don't like it, that's really not really not my business. And I think that there is an important lesson to be Learned there from 13 year old lavender. And I think we do see that translate into 16 year old lavender. And I think that, you know, her feelings for Ron are just an outcrop of this particular mentality of what I feel I'm gonna feel and you're gonna know it. And in a society that really does invite us, particularly women, to have to repress emotions for the sake of, I don't know, you know, being ambitious and upward mobility and being taken seriously and all these things. When men get to just kind of be as crazily emotive as they wanna be, they get to yell and scream and pout and do all these things. And we validate that on so many levels. I love that there is a character in these books, even if we as readers don't necessarily appreciate them. I love that there's a character in these books who really does embody the emotional freedom that I think is really important. And honestly, if the trio had had some of Lavender's emotional freedom and the willingness to do the things that they enjoy and like, I think a lot of the issues that we, the three of them would probably be a lot more minimal. When asked what words best describe lavender, the top three words were clingy, girly and annoying. Now, y'all, y'all, do y'all hear how problematic that is clingy, girly and annoying are the top three words. Now, many of us, and we'll get into this particular dynamic when we talk about whether Lavender is a good girlfriend or Ron. But many of us highlighted the reality that she is a 16 year old girl when we really get to know her, and that all of this kind of fits into that particular dynamic. But I also want us to think about, like, this is her first boyfriend, y'all, she's excited. And I think, again, this is one of those moments. And it reminds me of our first episode when we talked about Molly and how we are looking at her behavior through the lens of our, you know, I'm assuming I. Well, I know for a fact, because I look at the analytics, I know that many of us are millennials and so that we, many of us are pretty far away from 16. And I think that many of us don't want to acknowledge that, like, clinginess and annoyingness was also part of our canon at that age. And I also do think that, you know, and I'm not gonna attribute a negative connotation to the notion of girly, even though the books really do invite us to do that. And I also think that, you know, and again, we'll talk a little bit more in depth about this dynamic when we think about, you know, what it means. But I think that when we think about who Lavender is, she is someone who kind of loves hard. And, you know, that rabbit, Binky, you know, for all intents and purposes, she had that rabbit. And then that rabbit, she left. And he was a bunny. He was a little. He was little when he died. And. But we know that she was still so sad, even though ostensibly she did not spend a lot of time with that rabbit. Like, there was no way that she could have. She was in school. And so the idea that she would be so heartbroken for that rabbit, even though she didn't spend a lot of time with it tells us a story about who she is emotionally. And she's someone who forms meaningful attachments and holds onto them. And as an adult, I think that, you know, it's easy for us to say, like, girl, that is bad behavior. And that will not serve you well in life. And there are parts of it that are true, but there are some really beautiful aspects to the notion of wanting to hold on and maintain relationship with things that are meaningful where, like, her relationship with Pavarti is really, really, really beautiful. And they are always together, joined at the hip. Right? And some could argue that that is an that is a kind of subsidiary, if you will, or a derivation of clinginess. Right. But they are there to support one another. They are there to be there for one another when the other needs it. And I think that, you know, in the, in the desire to cut her some slack, I think it's really important. And I also do think that part of the perception of her clinginess is the fact that Ron is so devoid of emotional attachment to most people in his life that when we. And so is Harry. Right. Like Harry's trauma jumps out when it comes to human connection. And I think that when he looks at what Lavender is doing and the way that she's reacting to Ron, he's off put by that because he's like, I don't know what to do with that. Right. Like he wants emotion and he wants, you know, all those things on his terms. It's why he likes Ginny. Right. Like we talked about that in Ginny's episode, right. That the perception of, you know, emotion and emotional availability, emotional vulnerability feels icky to Harry and it feels icky to Ron because both of them are emotionally repressed. And then we get from Hermione this perception of the negativity of these things because she herself is also relatively emotionally repressed when it comes to her relationship with these boys or with other boys. Right. Like, if it's not about some social justice issue, we don't really get a lot out of Hermione. And so I think that a lot of what we experience from Lavender, particularly as it pertains to the clinginess and the annoyingness, right. Is the byproduct of three characters through whom we view her who are emotionally repressed, who are having to navigate emotions in ways that are not necessarily healthy. And we'll get to all of that. Right. Like we didn't really talk about that that much when we talked about Ron, but like we know full well that he is not all the way there. And I think that we are much more willing to accept that kind of behavior from 16 year old boys than we are from 16 year old girls. And I think that we wanted. I think the way that we understand J.K. rowling and how she understands femininity and how she understands the way that girls behave and how she understands the kind of like, I'm not other girls mentality is to not be emotional. Right. Like Harry literally says that about Ginny. And I think that there is something to be said about a character who is willing to give you, you know, indications about how they feel. And I love that Lavender does that. And I think that our perceptions of her as clingy and girly and annoying are all tempered by the way that she's presented to us through the lens of Ron and Hermione and also through the lens of J.K. rowling's misogyny. And I feel like that is important for us to think about as we, as we go through this episode because I think that these words really do kind of encapsulate a lot of the way that we understand who she is. And the thing that I want us to think about as we go through this episode is the ease with which we fall into the trap of conceptualizing her this way for today's arithmancy lesson. We had 620 responses. The first question was, is Lavender Brown a good person? About 68% of us said yes, about 7% of us said no, and 26% of us said don't know. Someone wrote, she has no personality beyond being a mess. Someone else wrote, although I wanted to say she isn't a good person because I don't think she's a good friend or girlfriend, I actually do think she's a good person and a hero for fighting and ultimately dying in the battle of Hogwarts. Another person wrote, when I look at Lavender apart from her relationship with Ron, because it would be unfair to view her exclusively through that lens, I see a very sensitive, dedicated, sometimes naive and brave person who seems to experience all aspects of life in great intensity, not just her feelings for Ron. And I don't think that's a bad thing. And one more person wrote, I don't think Lavender is a good person and I think if we got to know her better we could see past her superficial nature in the books. That being said, she does come up come across a bit one dimensionally and shallow. Again, I think we are confronted with the necessity to kind of navigate Lavender as a character who is despised by the author and thus despised by us. But to that end, there's nothing in these books that makes us think that she's a bad person. Is she misguided sometimes in the directionality of her disdain? Yes. Is she silly sometimes in making decisions and choices that might not be something that we would agree with right now at our current time in our lives also? Yes, but she's not a bad person. She makes good decisions and, you know, as good of a decision as one can make when you are 16 years old in part of a privileged population and just living your life as best you can. While also trying to navigate the return of the darkest wizard of the age while you're in school with the person that he is trying to kill who is also in your house. Right. Like, we never really talk about the fact that, you know, all of this stuff is happening and all these people are just around Harry while it's going on and what that must mean for them. And I think that, you know, particularly in this moment that we, particularly those of us in the United States are living in, where finding joy is really hard to do. And so leaning into the kind of silly and absurd feels like the only solace that we can find because everything else feels like it is literally falling apart around us. I can understand, particularly at the age that they are at, when we really get to know Lavender, why she behaves the way that she does. It makes complete and utter sense to me, even outside of her just being 16 years old. It's like, I've got to find joy somewhere. And I, as particularly as a person like Lavender who does wear her heart on her sleeve and who is, like, just an emotional person, it makes a lot of sense to me as to why she would be so intent on trying to be with someone just because, like, it can be very lonely. And also hormones. Maybe those are. Maybe many of us forgot about them hormones, but they're a beast. And when you are dealing with trauma after trauma after trauma and you're dealing with puberty, heaven help you, because only heaven can. Okay. And so I think that, like, one of the comments pointed to the fact that, you know, when we think about her outside of her relationship with Ron, we see someone who's very sensitive, but maybe with a touch of naivete. And I think that, you know, that sensitivity is something that is not rewarded in these books. And I think that part of that is because the Golden Trio doesn't have the opportunity or privilege of being that sensitive because they got stuff to do. They gotta bring Voldemort down. And there are expectations placed on them by the adults around them that are not on lavender. And so that when we look at characters in the periphery, we're like, if you aren't acting like the Golden Trio, you're doing it wrong. When in reality, maybe the Golden Trio is just doing it unhealthily. And lavender and what we see from her makes a lot more sense outside the context of Voldemort's return. And so, like, when we think about what this means for her as a person, I don't think she's a bad. I don't think there's any indication that she's a bad person. I don't think there's any indication that she's anything but a good person. Like someone else pointed out, I mean, she literally does join the da. So, like, when the time comes for her to make a decision, right, She's a pure blood person who could have just been like, I'm not getting involved in this. Not while I'm at school. Not if it means that, you know, other people in my family or could be targeted. She doesn't care about that. She joins the da, she stays behind and she fights. We're going to get into that a little bit more later on. But, like, those are clear indications that she is a good person. The idea that we would say that she is bad because she was jealous of Hermione and acted on that jealousy, y'all. The inverse is also true, is it not? And so would we then characterize Hermione as a bad person? I'm gonna leave us with that question because chaos and also reflection. Someone wrote, and I'm translating this from Spanish, so bear with me. She's a good friend of Parvardi in the books. We also see in other situations where she is amicable to other people. There are times where she is a bit testy with Hermione, but that reaction and attitude is kind of a match for what Hermione also offers us, y'all. I'm proud of that. All right. Someone else wrote, I feel like Lavender is a great friend to Parvarti, but I wouldn't consider her a friend to Hermione. She must have sensed the lingering feeling between Ron and Hermione and that's why she was so clingy, marking her territory too heavily in that in the end when she smothered Wanwan. I can also sympathize to being an insecure 16 year old, but I just find her so unlikable. Okay. Someone else wrote I said yes, that Lavender was a good friend because she is loyal to her friends, particularly Parvardi. We don't know much about why she and Hermione don't get along other than that they are polar opposites. And all this stuff with Ron. We do know that Hermione didn't think much of Lavender because of how girly Lavender was. Just because she clashed with one of the main protagonists of the story doesn't mean that she wasn't a good friend to those who in turn were good friends to her. And one more person wrote, is Lavender a good friend? Yes. She and Parvati are attached at the hip and she strikes me as a kind and loyal person. She even sticks by Trelawney post firing. I just find it so fascinating. And I think, again, this is the byproduct of the way that we are kind of made to think about this character through the lens of Hermione and Ron and Harry. But I think, you know, we wouldn't say that Hermione is a bad friend because she wasn't nice to Lavender. So the idea that we would hold Lavender to be to the, to the, to the standard that she should have been a good friend to Hermione, but it's also like, Hermione wasn't a good friend to her. So if we're matching energy, then, like, we will remember that it is in fact Hermione who comes up to her when they are 13 years old and is like, I know you're rabid, Die, but you're being irrational. I wouldn't want to be friends with that girl either. I'm so sorry to say it, and I'm a logical person, but, like, when I'm in the midst of a moment and I'm having a situation going on, I don't want to hear logic. I'm going through something. And I think that there's something to be said about the fact that you don't need to be friends with everybody who sleeps in your room with you. Like, you know, Cassie brought this up, but there are two other Gryffindor girls, ostensibly who we know nothing about. And we also know that Hermione doesn't necessarily have the best relationship with girls in general. She and Ginny go at it. Even she's not nice to Fleur Delacour. Like, there are lots of ways that we understand that to view Lavender as a friend through the lens of Hermione, we have to acknowledge the fact that Hermione is not friends with girls. And that is important when we think about what this then means for our perceptions of whether or not Lavender is a good friend. I think that when we look at her relationship with Prvardi, if she was a trash friend, I don't think Parvarti would be friends with her because Pravardi has a sister in another house. If she really wanted to spend time with someone else, she could easily do that. Even though Padma is in Ravenclaw, it's not an impossibility. They're twins. That was like her first friend. And when we look at Fred and George, we can recognize the likelihood that that would be a much easier and inherent thing that one would want to do. And yet she doesn't do that. She's always with Lavender, which tells us a story about, you know, what this much, what this must mean, because she has other options and that feels like an important reality for us to kind of highlight here. And I also do like the idea of, you know, invoking Trelawny and the loyalty that she shows to her, because I do think that that is a very val. I mean, the extent to which I think you can be friends with your teachers and whether or not you should be is a completely different conversation. But I do think it's important to note that she is someone who, even when everyone else around them is like, nah, like, this lady is a fraud. She's a fake. Lavender and Pavarti are there and there to, like, be with her and to stand by her when Umbridge fires her. And they're there with her. I mean, they are supportive of her and. And maybe it's because, you know, they do well in her class. But even still, if you are pariah, why would I stick by you? Especially if I wasn't a good person or if I wasn't a good friend or if I didn't feel like our relationship was important to me? And so I think that, like, there are indications that Lavender is a good friend. And what I really, really love about this discourse is that more than I think any other character thus far, Lavender is such a strong indication of how easily, you know, the well can be poisoned against characters when the main three people that we experience are, you know, dealing with some other things and the author herself is writing this character really to just be someone who we don't like from the get go. And, you know, a lot of you spend a considerable amount of time in other episodes highlighting the fact that so much of these characters is through the lens of Harry. And I think that there's something really fascinating about, you know, the fact that that is true, and particularly in Half Blood Prince, what that looks like when it's his best friend who is kind of being taken away from him and what that looks like. But on the whole, there's nothing, I think, that would suggest to me that Lavender isn't a good friend. I think there's a lot of things that would suggest that she is one. And I think the fact that she's there to fight for Hogwarts in the Battle of Hogwarts is another indication of this reality. Is Lavender Brown a good Gryffindor? 64% of us said yes, 12% of us said no. 24% of us said don't. No. Someone wrote, she goes on to join the DA and in the final book she stays at Hogwarts for the battle. More than proving herself to be a good Gryffindor, another person writes, she still does the brave thing and fights. So that's why I say that she's a good Gryffindor. And one more person wrote, yes, she joins the DA and fights in the final battle and is seriously wounded, if not outright killed by greyback. Here be lions. I think that, you know, these are indications and we talk a lot about what it means to be a good Gryffindor and a lot of the self sacrifice and the impulsiveness and all of these things. And I think we do see that kind of embodied in her willingness to stand up for the things that she believes in by joining the DA by fighting against the system, by risking it. Right. Like, I mean that was a really big risk and she still does it. And then she stays and people. There's a lot of conjecture about whether or not she actually dies. In the books we know that she's attacked by greyback, but it's not clear whether or not she dies or not. But either way an attack like that is intense and that was a risk that she was willing to take for her school and she was there fighting alongside all the other Gryffindors. I want to share some of what Cassie shared with me in our conversation about why she believed that lavender was a good Gryffindor. And it has nothing to do with the D.A. she mentions it, but there are other acts of bravery that lavender gets into. Let's take a listen. Do you think that Lavender brown is a good Gryffindor?
- [42:47]
Cassie
So I had to think about this one quite a bit because originally my answer was like, I'm not really sure. Like when you compare to some of the other Gryffindors who are very like loud and boastful about their huge deeds and you know, when you're comparing them to like the Golden Trio and even Neville who has a huge like character arc within his bravery, like lavender is very subtle in regards to all of that. But I think I kind of ended up landing on yes because I think lavender, even though kind of stina's very out there and like over the top and everything, I think that's what almost makes her brave. She's not afraid to kind of live her truth. She's not afraid or if she is afraid, she's willing to still do it. Anyway, to wear her heart on her sleeve and love what she loves without apologizing and love who she loves without apologizing. And I think that takes a lot of courage to have that type of vulnerability. People who wear their heart on their sleeves kind of get made fun of a lot, but that's showing the side of yourself that most people keep buried away. And just having that courage to do that, I think is what kind of put her in Gryffindor. And even still, when we get to the moments where you kind of have to choose to stand up or not, when it really comes down to it, she was part of the Dumbledore's Army. She was one of the first people who showed up for that meeting. She fought at the Battle of Hogwarts. She didn't stray away from the fight. She might not have always been the first one and she might have been the one to freak out at the jump scares that we see throughout the book. But I don't think that that took away from her courage and her bravery for the things that really matter.
- [44:30]
Professor Julian Womble
Yeah, and I think you raised a really good point in that. I think that, like her, she is a teenage girl, an adolescent girl at a school where they basically are all together all the time. And so I feel like to be someone who is so true to herself and so like open to being as emotional as she is about her rabbit, about all the things and just kind of letting people see that and either they take it or they leave it, I think is really, really, really, it is brave when we think about what it means to be a Gryffindor. I feel like when I might get in some trouble for this.
- [45:10]
Cassie
But fellow Slytherin, I will probably agree.
- [45:14]
Professor Julian Womble
Like, I think that there is something to be said about the way we understand Gryffindor girls versus Gryffindor boys. And I think that a lot of the, the aspects that we associate with Gryffindor are inherently like. Are inherently masculinized. Like, not like they only belong to.
- [45:33]
Cassie
Boys, but like they're definitely male coded.
- [45:36]
Professor Julian Womble
Right? Exactly. That's it. That's the language. And I think that because of that, when we see girls in Gryffindor, we look for a very specific kind of thing. And it's the McGonagalls, it's the Hermiones, it's not the lavenders. Is lavender brown a good pure blood? About 68% of us said don't know. 20% of us said yes, and 12.4% of us said don't know. Someone wrote she's probably a good pure blood and benefited from being so, but still did her part in stopping wizard supremacy taking over. Because Voldemort is a wizard supremacist, not a pure blood one. Another person wrote, I do think she's a good pure blood. I personally think that the only biggest reason she pursued Ron was for his pureblood status. Now that is a hot take. We'll come back to it. Someone else wrote, I said that Lavender is not a good pureblood because she is willing to fight for her friends in the magical war. However, I think that she doesn't care to examine her privilege or the sacrifices of Muggle, Borns and Muggles. When I read good pureblood, I equate this to good person or privilege or a good rich person. We might characterize a good rich person as someone who shares their wealth, donates to others, doesn't take from others, etc. To that end, Lavender manages neither to be invested in the needs of the less privileged, nor to be entirely selfish. Come on here, Nuance. I think this is really fascinating, but I really want to go back to this idea that she pursued Ron for his pure blood status because, gasp. That's not anything that we have, like, very strong canonical evidence of. And I don't know about that because I think, I mean. And I can already hear some of you saying, I can already hear some of you saying, but he's a blood traitor. Like, if she was a pure blood supremacist, this would be the last person that she would want to go with. Because, like, his family is filled with people who are seen by other pure blood supremacists as being traitors to the cause. So why would that be something that would, like, lead her to kind of want to pursue him? And I can see, like, I can see that side of the argument. And there's nothing to tell us that that's exactly why she would go after him. I think would be interesting to think about, kind of to. To conceptualize the idea of what it would look like if that was in fact what her goal was. Or maybe she's like, I wanna date someone who is pure blood, but I want a good one. You know what I mean? We could also see that we know Ginny doesn't care. Cause she's going around with Dean Thomas. And I think that that's, you know, I think it's just a matter of understanding people's principles and we just don't have enough to really know about Lavenders. But I do also think that her willingness to Be involved in things that are kind of inherently anti pureblood, like the da, like the Battle of Hogwarts, speaks volumes. I also think that her willingness to recognize that she was wrong about, you know, Harry when he. When all of the news comes out about the fact that Voldemort has returned. I think that there are ways that we can understand this kind of neutral position that she finds herself in where she's willing to make some sacrifices but maybe not go full tilt. But I think that that's probably true for a lot of the Pure Bloods that we see. Right. Like, we don't necessarily. I mean, I guess the Weasleys don't have a lot to necessarily give in terms of finances and they are making sacrifices in terms of their lives. But to that end, so does lavender. So if we're using that as a metric. Right. I'm really trying to think of a meaningful distinction between what lavender does and what we see from the Weasleys. Especially because, like, the Weasleys have a much stronger connection to Harry and to Dumbledore than Lavender Brown does. And so it seems to me that there's a much more kind of moral imperative for Lavender, even more so than maybe the Weasleys because they have a personal imperative that goes along with the morality aspect of it, and she doesn't. And the fact that she does stay and the fact that she is willing to kind of go against the grain and go against the things that might be better for her is a very telling reality. And so I think that there are ways that we can see her earlier on kind of upholding the system by virtue of asking nothing of it and not pushing it in any particular direction. But then we do see some shift in that. Right? And we do see her making meaningful changes in that she is doing subversive things that are meant to subvert. Subversive things that are meant to subvert. Oh, my goodness. The structure at hand. Right. And I think that there's something to that. And to be fair, honestly, even if we were to go on a limb and say, oh, well, you know, she only dated Ron because he's pure blood, so did Molly Weasley. Right? Like she got with Arthur. So again, like, are we holding Lavender to a standard that doesn't quite match the way that we assess other people? You know, is the way that we're conditioned to view her coloring the way that we then understand her versus other characters who exhibit the same exact behavior? I don't know. I'm just here asking questions Y'all, it is time for some chaos. I knew when I added this question that was going to do the thing that I wanted to do because I knew that our normal chaotic question about pure Bloods wasn't going to necessarily hit because we just don't have enough. Oh, but we have enough to try to figure out if Lavender Brown is a good girlfriend. About 53% of us said no, 34% of us said yes, and 14% of us said don't. No. Someone wrote, she's so stereotypically an obsessed teenage girl. She just wants a boyfriend and Ron is it. She isn't invested in him and doesn't know or understand him. She doesn't want to. I think this is another one of JKR's cheap shots at women. She could have written Lavender to at least be interesting, but she's really just a distraction, nothing more. Another person wrote, the annoying things she did to Ron were more a reflection of how bad of a boyfriend Ron is. While Lavender was clearly insecure and clingy. One, that doesn't make her a bad girlfriend. She's just a teenage girl. And two, Ron never gave her a reason to be secure in their relationship. He was constantly ditching her, judging her and making faces at her, giving her back 10% of what she was trying to get him in. Communication and reciprocity. Someone else wrote. After having answered no very quickly to this question, I paused to really think about it. I love that. I then realized that I couldn't think of a specific moment where Lavender had acted in a way that was seriously hurtful or harm harmful towards Ron or had done anything that would clearly make her a quote unquote bad girlfriend. Yes, in the end, she was possessive, obsessive and overprotective of Ron at times, which is not great. But in her defense, how much of her bad behavior in that relationship was a reaction to Ron's behavior? Didn't she have valid reasons to feel insecure in that relationship if Ron was simultaneously developing feelings for Hermione, was being avoidant, dishonest, and may have only wanted to go out with Lavender to make Hermione jealous in the first place? Now let's get into it, because I really do think that a lot of the perspective that we have because Harry is a narrator suggests to us that Lavender's a problem. But Lavender is doing what Lavender does. Lavender is wearing that heart on her sleeve. She is being present, she is being there for Ron. And where is he? What is he doing? She is a means to an end because he is envious of all the people around him who are snogging and cuddled up somewhere and he is not. And so he himself is not interested. And so Lavender is overcompensating. All the clinginess, all this is the byproduct of someone who likes someone and is trying to get them to like them back in the same way. She is not doing this just cause she's doing it because she's dealing with someone who is actively not reciprocating anything. And it is easy for us to say and I feel like some of you are probably saying out loud, then dump him. It's a lot easier said than done. And you all, I'm inviting all of us right now to remember our first crushes, our first significant others and think about the lengths to which many of us went to try to get their attention and to keep it. All of the cleanness and the annoyingness is only those things because we are. It all feels very one sided because it is. And she is fighting for her life to try to get him to see what a catch she is to try to get him to get a morsel of what she's giving him from him. And so I think like, yeah, it is annoying and it is clingy, but a lot of this is just because Lavender is someone who loves loudly and is just trying to get a little bit of what she's giving back. And that to me, if I had to think about 16 year old Julian, that feels very relatable, particularly as someone who loves to go over the top. I don't know if you've known this about me, but let's listen to what Cassie says about this because y'all, when I told you about the take that was took, this is the take. Let's listen in.
- [55:23]
Cassie
Kind of as I get older and kind of rereading this like, Lavender is almost the perfect person for Ron on paper in my opinion. Okay, Ron with his insecurities, I'm not saying we need to support that and further the toxicity that might come from that. But Ron needs somebody who is secure in their love for him. He has been pushed aside. He has never felt like number one. And Lavender comes in and says, you're my person, I'm here for you, I'm going to claim you. And he still throws her away. And you're like, what? This is perfect for you. This is everything you've wanted somebody to dote on you, to say that, put you first to have an interest and support your goals, your hobbies. Like she's out here before he even becomes keeper, being like, go, Ron. You got this. I believe in you. And it's still not enough for him somehow. But, you know, that's another thing. But, like, she's perfect for him on paper, and he just doesn't seem to want to give it a chance.
- [56:26]
Professor Julian Womble
What an amazing, amazing point. Like, yeah, Ron needs nothing if not constant validation. But I also think that, again, there is this, like, social expectation that, like, I was watching one of these, like, chicken Shop, like, date things.
- [56:45]
Cassie
Oh, yeah.
- [56:46]
Professor Julian Womble
And I think it was a bit. But, like, he. She said, what do you like in a girl? And whoever the guy was, I have no idea who he was. And he was like, I like it when they don't like me. And the moment that they, like, show any interest in me is the moment that I'm out. And I think that, like, there are a lot of people out there who like that. And I also think that this is part and parcel to the fact that Ron isn't used to that kind of validation, so he doesn't know how to receive it. And I know. And I know that there are people who are gonna be listening to this and who are gonna be like, wow, you know, he's a teenage boy. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. But also, like, he's a traumatized child. Right? Like, I mean, he's a person who has come. And we talked about this in his episodes. But, like, he doesn't know. He doesn't get a lot of validation just for being who he is. Right. Like. Like you said, like, Lavender was there before he even made. Became Keeper. Now, granted, he had been. He had done well in Order of the Phoenix. And so. But she was still there before he even remade the team and was there cheering him on. And I. I don't think he knows. You know, one thing I think that's true for Ron is that, like, he doesn't. If he doesn't believe he deserves it, then he doesn't believe it when other people says he does.
- [58:12]
Cassie
Yeah.
- [58:13]
Professor Julian Womble
And I think that a lot of. And I think so a lot of his motivation for dating Lavender was not, like, because he liked her. It was really because he, like, wanted Hermione jealous, to make Hermione jealous. And he wanted to feel like he was in league or on par with everyone else. With Ginny, with Hermione, with all these other people. And so he uses her as a pawn in this way. And what's so crazy about that is I don't think that Lavender would have cared. I think she just liked him. And that's a sad thing on her part. Like, I mean, I would want her to want more for herself than that, but again, she's a teenage girl and she's out here ready to go, like, love bomb.
- [58:59]
Cassie
Yeah. When she stayed for so long, I was going back through and I was like, oh, this is the end. And I was like, oh, no, they're still together. This is the end. No, no, they're still together. Like, she was like, I will make this work. Until she, like, legitimately was like, oh, wait, he's, like, cheating on me with Hermione or whatever.
- [59:19]
Professor Julian Womble
Yeah. And it's so. It's so fascinating because, like, you're so right. Like, she offers him all the things that he, in theory, should want, right? Like the constant validation. Someone who's gonna be there to support you. Even when you don't believe your of support, she's there. Like, she offers such a good way of, like, just being like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I'm here for you. And Ron really does not have that many people in his life who are like that. And I just don't know. I don't think he's equipped. And not even just because he's a teenage boy, but just because of who he is. I don't think he's equipped to really deal with that particular reason.
- [60:02]
Cassie
Like you said, he's never had that, like, even from his best friends. Like, he doesn't get that from Harry and Hermione either.
- [60:10]
Professor Julian Womble
But I do think that she's such an ideal girlfriend for him. But what is true, right, is that society, like, that there are external sources that tell you what you should get. And so that when you get certain things, you can't appreciate it. And I do think that, like, obviously he has feelings for Hermione and that also matters here for him as well because he's like, I want this other girl who's with this other guy. And so part of it is, like, he can never really see the beauty of what Lavender is offering because he's only dating her to get back at Hermione. And so Hermione is always there in the background of his mind or maybe even the foreground, to the point where he's unable to really get what he wants. And I also do think that, like, you know, the way that Lavender's presented to us in the books is very overbearing. And, like, she is truly. This wasn't a thing in the 90s, but, like, she is love Bombing him. But she's excited. And I think. Yeah. And also, I'm like. To be fair, like, Jenny and Dean are running around here making out in every corner they can find. Like. Yeah, I don't.
- [61:15]
Cassie
I think the difference.
- [61:17]
Professor Julian Womble
Go ahead.
- [61:18]
Cassie
As I say, because I thought about that, too. I was like, Jenny and Dean are also doing the same thing. I think the difference, though, and why we vilify lavender for that, is that Ron and Lavender are more public about it. Jenny and Dean are off hiding behind closed doors and closets and keep getting found. But Ron and Lavender are sitting in the common room making out in a corner. And also going back through. In the middle of book six, the password for the Gryffindor common room changes to abstinence. Like, what kind of nail on the head is. Like, lavender is bad when you're sitting over here making out. And then we're gonna be like, oh, abstinence. Like the oxen, you know?
- [61:58]
Professor Julian Womble
But was that. It might have also been because of that. But that was also because the fat lady had gone out drinking the night before, right?
- [62:06]
Cassie
I think so.
- [62:07]
Professor Julian Womble
Yeah.
- [62:07]
Cassie
Too. Or it was around that time.
- [62:09]
Professor Julian Womble
Yeah. So she was out partying. But it's still hilarious because it's like, yeah. Like, lock it up, y'all.
- [62:15]
Cassie
Yeah, lock it up. You can be handsy, but go do that behind closed doors like all the other classy grinders do.
- [62:23]
Professor Julian Womble
Which is so interesting, because lavender and it also shows. Right? Like, lavender's like. Like, I want y'all to know.
- [62:30]
Cassie
Yeah. And I. I'm not gonna hide my affection.
- [62:34]
Professor Julian Womble
Yeah.
- [62:34]
Cassie
I'm not gonna make him a secret.
- [62:36]
Professor Julian Womble
No. And I'm not gonna hide that. This is my man, everybody. And so, like, you're gonna know, and you just. You guys need to deal with it. And I think it is very interesting because everyone. I mean, like, I don't know, I feel like that's just, like, a thing when you're that age. Like, he's undoubtedly her first boyfriend as well. So, like, this, She's. She's excited for this episode's reflection. We are going to be looking at the question that I posed to you all, which was, why is the fandom so hard on Lavender? Someone wrote, I'm a lavender brown defender. I believe that she falls victim to JKR's toxic ways of writing women. And so we see her play this role that is so surface level. I think that at Lavender's core, she is truly just a girl. We all remember our first little crush relationships, and of course, they were toxic and messy and Weird, someone else wrote, because she's a girl, two, because she's intense and three, because she's not Hermione. Another person wrote. JKR's demonization of femininity, another person wrote, cause she's annoying, AF and unchill. One more person wrote. Sexism, another person wrote, I think they're so hard on her because she's Hermione's direct competition and her polar opposite. Lavender's favorite subject is divination. Hermione thinks it's a joke and a sham. Lavender gets a lot of male attention. Hermione is the friend or is always the friend or sister. Lavender cares about her looks and no spells for hair and makeup. Hermione is more plain and cares more about her brain than her appearance. Ron doesn't get with Hermione earlier because his attention was caught by Lavender. Hermione is such a well loved character and Lavender is her big competitor, is her biggest competitor. It's like Lavender is Regina George to Hermione's Cady Heron. Mean Girls reference. How dare you write mean Girls reference in a parentheses? As if I, a peak millennial, wouldn't understand exactly what that meant. I'm offended at the accusation, but I really appreciate the commentary. And another person wrote, because we are all Hermione Stans, don't you all think it's kind of weird that we, because we like one girl character, we inherently can't like another one? Like, doesn't that feel like icky to us a little bit? And I will say that many of us are very cavalier in answering this question and saying like, oh, it's because she's not Hermione and doesn't that maybe it's just me, but that kind of gives me the ick. And this is, I'm a person who absolutely, like, without much thinking or provocation, was like, lavender's the worst. But when I started teaching my class and I had a student who was like, I just don't like her. And I thought, why? Like, what does she do? And it's really, really coming down to the fact that she's just not Hermione. And she is seen as a roadblock to the romance that we all wanted to happen. We wanted the friends to lovers, we wanted the kind of weird frenemies vibe to lovers. And that's what we were looking for. And lavender was a roadblock. And so we demonized her. And I think it is just so fascinating that that's the way that we go. And, and I'm gonna share some of my conversation with Cassie because I do think, again, that it's really, really interesting and she brings some really fascinating points up. But I also wanted to point out, because this came up a couple of times about the way that we kind of internalize who Lavender is. And one of the big things that people kind of note, too, is the fact that when the movies came out, originally, Lavender was cast as a black girl. And then when it came to Half Blood Prince, she was recast as a white girl. And I spent a considerable amount of time thinking about this particular recasting because I kept thinking, why? Like, we know that it seems weird, right, that it would be, oh, it's because she's black. Because we see that Fred ultimately goes to the Yule Ball with Angelina. Now, maybe it's different going to the ball with someone versus, like, being their girlfriend, but it seems strange to me that that was the choice that they made when we have seen an interracial relationship operate within the Weasley family, both canonically and in the movies. And then I thought, well, maybe it's because the creators and producers and all the other people were like, well, we want young girls to see themselves. And since, like, whiteness tends to be the default, like, we have to switch it over so that the girls who do watch this, who I guess they presumed were white, would want to be Lavender. And they got it wrong, as much of this episode has shown us, right? Like, the mentality about this is wrong, right? People don't want to not be Lavender because she was portrayed in the movie as being black. They don't want to be her because. Or they don't want to admit that there are parts of themselves that are represented by her because she is cast canonically and in the movie as a, like, crazy, simping girl over this guy. And so it's fascinating that this was the choice that they ultimately made because I guarantee you it was one. Because based on the notion of representation, right? And the belief of doing something that would be more palatable, which is, in and of itself racist and problematic, while also standing in the face of what we've already seen in these movies and books with a Weasley person being with a black girl. So it doesn't really make sense. But even still, the reality that you all have brought forth is the fact that, like, it wouldn't matter what her race was. The fact that she is this girl makes it like it is the thing that people don't like. And I also do think, though, that her being cast as a white girl also adds A certain layer of, like, naivete and annoyingness that we don't tend to associate with women of color. And Cassie gets into this a little bit when she talks about the idea of what it means to be a teenage girl and how teenage girl things are kind of seen as stupid. And I would add onto that that part of that is not. It's inherently racialized. Right. Insofar that this is a very particular kind of teenage girl that is being put out. So that when we're casting someone as kind of silly girl who just kind of does silly things, I think the picture in a lot of people's minds tends to be like, a white girl. And that's one because whiteness is the default, but also because when we think about the portrayals and historical portrayals of, like, white women, it's very specific. And so I think that when we think about the kind of switching over of a race of lavender brown, it was done as a way to try to get people to kind of feel like they were being represented without a full understanding of how people actually felt about the character. And the fact that you made her a woman only re emphasizes all the problematic things that are put forth in the books to begin with and also takes away any sort of potential depth because we don't really allow her to grow in any way. And the only nuance that she might have had would have been her racial background, and they removed that. But anyways, I could talk about this for a thousand years. Let's hear what Cassie has to say. What's the vibe here? What's your explanation for why the fandom hold like has so much disdain for her?
- [70:01]
Cassie
There's this not, like, other girls trope happening in the young adult world, and lavender is that other girl that you're not supposed to be like. And I think also, too, what you see through, like, music and especially, I think around this time, like, when teenage girl like something, that thing becomes like, a. No, like, it's cringe, it's terrible. It's how dare you like it? And I think we kind of see this really manifest with, like, Twilight, where it's like, how dare you like this book? Like, but teenage girls love it, and so it must be awful. And I think that that's kind of what the lavender represents of, like, this teenage girl who really is obsessed with something, who really likes something. And you have to be like, oh, you just don't know what you're talking about. You don't actually know that this is bad because you're a teenage girl. And you don't know better. And I think that's kind of what she's representing in this society. And we're kind of trained to kind of push that aside, to be like, oh, wait, we can't like that. You know, this is dumb. It's just kind of the rhetoric of that age. And it still continues on, like, even as you go through life, like boy bands and, like, Taylor Swift and, like, you know, we're still kind of like, oh, these teenage girls, like, they're just going crazy over something dumb. And I think that that's kind of what the Lavender character is representing. And so we're kind of, like, also socially ingrained to push that away to some extent.
- [71:36]
Professor Julian Womble
And what else is interesting? And then I swear we'll be done. But what else is interesting is, like, I can go on forever in romance novels. If she was a guy, women would go crazy for her, all over it. And I was gonna say that, too.
- [71:54]
Cassie
I was like, but we devour books about this level of obsessive love. Like, this is what we crave in a lot of romance books.
- [72:05]
Professor Julian Womble
And I'm including myself in that number. We love that stuff. We love the you're mine. We love the I'm gonna show you off. We love the, like, like, hyper jealous, like, yes. Dynamic.
- [72:21]
Cassie
How dare you even talk to another person.
- [72:24]
Professor Julian Womble
Don't you, like, you look at someone else? And I hate that. And then. And then, like, the character. Character gets like, oh, no. Like, I hate that. How possessive he is. But then also, like, secretly love it because I'm his. Like.
- [72:36]
Cassie
But don't stop.
- [72:38]
Professor Julian Womble
Like, we. If Lavender was lavendro and a little bit older, but only by, like, maybe a couple years and a billionaire. That always matters.
- [72:49]
Cassie
Yeah, we do love a billionaire.
- [72:50]
Professor Julian Womble
Love a billionaire. But, like, that dynamic is one that we see in these book in, like, in other romance books, and we eat it up. And so it's so fascinating to see it, like, in a gendered reverse, a much younger version of it. And the fact that the fandom is like, absolutely not. This is disgusting. It's stupid. It's bad cringe.
- [73:13]
Cassie
Like.
- [73:15]
Professor Julian Womble
Poor Lavender. She deserves better. And honestly, Lavender does deserve better, y'all. I think it is so fascinating because I find it disconcerting how easily J.K. rowling was able to kind of implant these beliefs into our brains about this character without much provocation. And granted, again, like, we were young. Like, really, some of us were Lavender's age when we were reading these books, and the ease with which we kind of fell into that trap speaks volumes about how easy it is for people to kind of fall prey to prejudicial kind of belief structures. And I think that part of the reason why the fandom doesn't like her is because we are really conditioned to believe that Hermione is like, the ideal girl. Which to me, really moves us away from really being critical of Hermione and of. I mean, we're critical of Ron, but not in this domain. Some of us were critical of him in our responses, but some of us were not. And I think that the, like, the invocation and the reality that a lot of the behavior that. That Lavender presents to Ron, if gender swapped, aged up and moneyed, is the stuff that we eat, like, fricking breakfast. We love it. And so it's not the behavior then, is it? Right? Like, it's the package. It's the girl. It's her. It's the teenage. And that to me is worrisome. And that to me, like, listen, I was called in. Like, I really had to think about it. Cause I'm like, no. Like, I love a possessive, crazy, jealous, clingy, like, protagonist. How many of us have read Manacled the High Reeve? Anyone? Like, we like those. For those of us who enjoy Dramione, fix, like, that behavior that many of us love and that iteration of Draco, that's Lavender. So the question that we have to grapple with is, okay, so then if it's not the behavior, if it's not the action, if it's not the clinginess, if the annoyingness now becomes something that we're desiring, then what is it? And the answer is, it's her. And if she was a he, this wouldn't be the same thing. And there's something there for us to have to kind of grapple with. And the seeds of that kind of internalized misogyny that J.K. rowling has put in throughout much of these books is very present in this particular dynamic. And it just strikes me that, like, we as a society are fertile soil for those seeds to take root. And Lavender Brown is a casualty of that as a character. And that a lot of who she is is who she always was. This very sensitive, giving, generous person who. Who basically paid the price for being a teenage girl with emotions. And we don't like that because, like Cassie said, we tend to say that that is stupid and dumb. And we didn't like that because our girl Hermione might not have gotten the guy if Lavender was successful. And we didn't like that. Because Harry didn't like that. And we didn't think anything of the way that Ron was treating her or what he wasn't giving her or how her own insecurities might have played a part in that. Like, we just were like, girl, you're not it. And we don't like you. And I think that there's a lot for us to unpack as a fandom about the way that we inadvertently absorbed a lot of some of that kind of bias that we know J.K. rowling has. And this is one of the spaces and places where we see it most clearly, because the text really doesn't give us that much to find against lavender. And yet there was a lot of variation in those survey responses. And that's something that I think we gotta, like, think about a little bit. And I love this episode because of that. And I'm so grateful that you all took part in it because I think, like, this is the work. And it's so cool that, like, Harry Potter offers us the ability to be able to be like, huh, why do I dislike her for this? But, like, love Draco and Germany. Fanfic. Okay, I'm just asking the questions today. I want to give a special thank you to Cassie for sharing her amazing, amazing insights with me on this episode. I want to thank all of you for filling out the survey and being very open and honest with how you felt. I think it really made this episode super, super interesting and strong. I'm so glad that we ended our Pure Blood survey moment with lavender because I think it brought the right amount of chaos that we were looking for and we will be doing the best and worst of Pure Bloods for our next episode. So there won't be a survey, but there will be chaos. Because I already know it's going to be crazy and I'm hoping that my King Percy does not end up being the worst for everything like he was for the Weasley episode. Anyways, this has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory. I'm Professor Julian Womble and if you enjoyed today's episode, first of all, thank you. Please feel free to, like, rate, subscribe, follow, do all the things that one does where pods are cast. Remember that next episode is going to be the best and worst of the Pure Bloods. And so there won't be a survey, but we are going to have a good time. If you would like to join us for the post episode chat on Patreon, please feel free to do so@patreon.com criticalmagictheory where you can join for free. Shoot me an email@criticalmagictheorymail.com or go on our website, criticalmagictheory.com and you can do all the things there. All right. Can't wait to talk to you all soon. Until then, be critical and stay magical, my friends. Bye.