Prof Responds: If Not Him, Then Who? Dumbledore & the Pitfalls of Wartime Necessity

Summary

Critical Magic Theory: An Analytical Harry Potter Podcast

Episode: Prof Responds: If Not Him, Then Who? Dumbledore & the Pitfalls of Wartime Necessity
Host: Prof. Julian Womble
Date: December 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Critical Magic Theory, hosted by Professor Julian Womble, continues the in-depth exploration of Albus Dumbledore—his decisions, legacy, and failures. Rather than treating criticism as evidence of dislike, Prof. Womble models how loving a story, character, or world means thinking critically about it. Responding directly to listener comments and challenging Dumbledore’s saintly reputation, he interrogates themes of wartime necessity, myth-making, leadership, and the limits of "good intentions."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Taking on Dumbledore with Humor and Rigor

Timestamps: 02:01–09:30

• Prof. Womble playfully embraces his role as provocateur on Dumbledore criticism (“My truth is that I'm never going to take my foot off of the neck of Albus Dumbledore because I feel like enough of us aren't doing it.” [03:38])
• Acknowledges varied listener responses—from those defending Dumbledore, to those wanting more balanced analysis.
• Announces the availability of a listener essay defending Dumbledore on Patreon, inviting all perspectives and fostering community debate.

2. Dumbledore's Early Failure With Tom Riddle

Timestamps: 12:12–26:30

• Central listener question: Did Dumbledore contribute to Voldemort’s creation by not intervening with young Tom Riddle?
  • Nadia: “What role did Dumbledore play in the creation of Voldiva? He recognized early signs of evil... but failed to intervene decisively.” [12:44]
• Prof. Womble argues the “Muggle-lover” label tells us more about the accusers’ prejudices than about Dumbledore’s morality.
  • "The bar for being labeled a Muggle lover in the wizarding world is legitimately in Beelzebub's lair." [14:08]
• Cites the memory scene with Riddle: Dumbledore observed classic warning signs of cruelty and manipulation at age 11—yet still gave Tom a wand, unsupervised, and let him loose at Hogwarts.
• Critiques Dumbledore’s inaction:
  • “How could Dumbledore witness all of that and still send Tom Riddle, alone, unmonitored, unsupervised, into a magical marketplace full of tools he could use to amplify the cruelty he had already displayed?” [18:18]
  • “The point is, no boundary was even attempted. No consistent supervision, no mentorship designed around his actual needs, no protection for other students…” [20:25]
• Dumbledore’s rare admission of failure is fleeting—the deeper issue is his unwillingness to confront the impact of his own choices.

Notable Quote

“The question was not, did Dumbledore create Voldemort? ... The question is, what would the magical world have looked like if the first adult, Tom Riddle ever encountered... had taken the signs seriously?”
— Prof. Julian Womble [24:41]

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3. The Dumbledore Mythos & Harry’s Attachment

Timestamps: 28:39–39:15

• Is Harry’s loyalty to Dumbledore a product of true admiration, or trauma-bonded necessity?
  • Discusses how Harry clings to Dumbledore, even after neglect and deception, due to his desperate need for belonging and meaning in the wizarding world.
  • “Harry doesn’t just admire Dumbledore, he needs him to be who the world says he is.” [34:10]
• The cult of Dumbledore is perpetuated both by Hogwarts institutionality and by Harry’s own emotional wounds.
• “If Dumbledore isn’t the person who the wizarding world says he is, then the whole architecture of how we understand the wizarding world... begins to crumble.” [34:32]
• Draws a parallel to many adult fans: attachment to Dumbledore is about needing a trustworthy guide during a tumultuous time in life.

Notable Moment

• Beautiful summation of trauma and myth:

  “That is love rooted in necessity. That is trauma bonding disguised as loyalty.” [35:40]

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4. The Order of the Phoenix: Leadership and Organizational Failure

Timestamps: 41:38–49:33

• Listeners debate if the Order is a cult, secret society, or simply disorganized.
  • “The Order becomes what he (Dumbledore) needs it to be... because he never defines what it's supposed to be in the first place.” [44:30]
• Contrasts the Order’s chaos with the Death Eaters’ unity. Uses modern U.S. political parties as metaphors:
  • “The Order feels a lot like the Democratic Party... frustrating, earnest, overextended, trying to do everything the ‘right’ way... The Death Eaters, they’re the Republican Party... unified around grievance... centralized around a figurehead willing to use whatever tools of intimidation...” [47:15-47:40]
• Points out that Dumbledore’s scattered focus and lack of clear mission doomed the Order to inefficacy. The group collapses upon his death—its mission always tied only to him, never to systemic change.

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5. Dumbledore’s Relationship to Power and Change

Timestamps: 49:33–57:34

• Questions Dumbledore’s actual impact, given his decades of influence over Hogwarts students:
  • “If every witch or wizard... passed under his tutelage, then why is [the wizarding world] the same, so easily manipulated?” [51:02]
• Concludes that Dumbledore’s opposition to evil is personalistic; he fights individuals (Grindelwald, Voldemort), not the systems that breed them.
• Dumbledore rarely challenges institutional injustices (e.g., no change to house-elf enslavement or incompetent teaching).
• Offers a stinging distinction:

  “Dumbledore’s legacy is not that he changed the wizarding world. His legacy is that he preserved it... He wasn’t trying to liberate anyone. He’s trying to maintain equilibrium.” [56:28-57:10]

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6. Good Intentions, Wartime Morality & Accountability

Timestamps: 60:11–77:22

• Opens with a personal and theatrical touch: singing “No Good Deed” from Wicked to frame Dumbledore’s motivation (“That is from Wicked. The vocal is from me though.” [60:38])
• Explores how “wartime necessity” is used to excuse Dumbledore’s pattern of secrecy, manipulation, and the instrumentalization of children.
  • “If we say he had to do it, it was war... what we’re really saying is Dumbledore never needs to be held accountable because he never leaves wartime conditions. That’s not just justification, it’s carte blanche.” [65:25]
• Draws parallels to real-world leaders (President Snow/Coin from The Hunger Games; U.S. post-9/11 excesses) to show how crisis is used to suspend moral scrutiny.
• Points out that Dumbledore is at “perpetual war”—his choices, justified by necessity, become unaccountable.
• Starkly describes the toll on Harry and others who never chose to be soldiers, nor received the truth:
  • “Harry’s trauma is the clearest evidence that necessity does not erase consequence. He is neglected and unprepared, emotionally manipulated... constricted to a prophecy that he didn’t choose, and ultimately trained to die.” [69:01]
• Returns repeatedly to this truth: Dumbledore addresses crisis by removing the bad individual, but leaves the corrupt system in place.

Key Reflection

“Necessity is not absolution. Heroism is not immunity. And the greater good is not an excuse.”
— Prof. Julian Womble [76:56]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Let me be so clear. Dumbledore met an 11 year old exhibiting textbook signs of violent behavioral pathology... and he essentially said, well, let's just get him a wand and see where it goes.” [18:07]
• “If Dumbledore isn’t the person who the wizarding world says he is, then the whole architecture of how we understand the wizarding world... begins to crumble.” [34:32]
• On institutional preservation: “Dumbledore’s legacy is not that he changed the wizarding world. His legacy is that he preserved it.” [56:28]
• On wartime justification: “Dumbledore is never not fighting a war... if we say he had to do it, it was war... what we’re really saying is Dumbledore never needs to be held accountable because he never leaves wartime conditions.” [65:25]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:01 – Prof. Womble introduces criticism as care, sets up the episode’s Dumbledore focus
• 12:12 – Listener questions on Dumbledore’s responsibility toward Tom Riddle
• 18:07 – Dumbledore’s inaction with young Tom Riddle discussed
• 28:39 – Harry’s mythic attachment and the cult of Dumbledore
• 41:38 – The Order of the Phoenix compared to contemporary institutions
• 49:33 – Dumbledore’s influence on the status quo and magical society
• 60:11 – “No Good Deed” and the pivot toward wartime morality and the limits of good intentions
• 65:25 – Discussion on how “perpetual war” creates unaccountable leadership
• 76:56 – Summation: Necessity, heroism, and the call for ongoing accountability

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Tone and Style

• Prof. Womble maintains a conversational, energetic, and irreverent tone—balancing humor (“Am I Voldiva? Am I Dumby Diva? Ooh, Dumby Diva. I love that, actually.” [04:54]) with deep, earnest analysis.
• He openly plays with Dumbledore’s image and the emotional investment many listeners bring to the character.
• Consistently credits listener contributions, creating a lively, dynamic conversation.

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Conclusion

This provocative, compassionate episode threads the needle between love and critical analysis—ultimately arguing that Dumbledore’s “great man” myth is both a comfort and a trap. Prof. Womble illustrates how focusing on individual battles against obvious evil leaves the deeper wounds of systemic injustice unhealed. Echoing real-world issues of leadership and moral responsibility, he invites listeners to distinguish “saving the world” from changing it, to hold heroism accountable, and to remember: true magic lies in embracing both critique and care.

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For more discussion and to join the post-episode chat, see Critical Magic Theory on Patreon.

Transcript

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[Professor Julian Womble]

Welcome to Critical Magic Theory where we deconstruct the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Because loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julian Womble and today is our second Prof. Response episode in our series on the.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

One and only Albus Dumbledee D. Dumbledo.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It is not late. I'm recording this at a reasonable a what? A reasonable hour, however, simultaneously, concurrently.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And many of you have given voice.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To the fact that you like my late night antics and so I'm gonna try to give those to you.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Some of you have requested vocals.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You might get some. All right, I can't make any promises, but what I can promise is that this episode is going to be good because your responses in the post episode chat were so freaking good. And I'm so excited because it just. It just makes me feel great that I caused enough chaos to get you all to run to the post episode chat to have to share your piece.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Many of you were upset. Many of you were not pleased with me.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Some of you accused me of being more generous to Snape. Some of you are saying I'm just not being fair enough to Dumbledore.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Some of you are saying that I'm.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Not acknowledging the context in which all of these things are happening. We're talking about all of it in this episode.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And maybe you're right and maybe you're wrong.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But that's the beauty of discussion and debate, is that you get to decide what is your truth. My truth is that I'm never going to take my foot off of the neck of Albus Dumbledore because I feel like enough of us aren't doing it. And so I'm going to keep going.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Now, I will acknowledge the things that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Are worthy of acknowledgment, but I will not kowtow to the powers that be. That's you all. Because you all want to have Granddaddy Dumby D be lauded in the annals of Harry Potter history. I won't do it.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He needs to pay for his crimes and I'm going to see to it that he does. And you can hate it if you want to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I respect that. What I will not do is change that.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

So here we are, we're back.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And some of you are ready to fight. And that's good, because you're going to need that energy. Because some of the takes in this episode, well, you might want to give them back.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And that's okay, because I'm going to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Acknowledge your pain while I increase it. No, I'm totally joking. But before anything, before we get into any of that, before such a problem, I. Wow. Acknowledge your pain while I increase it. That was dark. Am I Voldiva? Am I Dumby Diva? Ooh, Dumby Diva. I love that, actually. Anyways, we've gotta get into this episode. Stop distracting me, everyone. Before we get into the episode, though, we have to bop. We have to beard bop. I was trying to, you know, really fill so that you all could stretch your necks out. Okay. So that you guys could get yourselves together. Because the beard bop is coming in three. In two, in one.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Let's bop.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I hope you danced. I hope you bopped. I hope you bipped. And bopped with your beard. And if you don't have a beard, that's okay. Beards are social constructs. You can just pretend that you did. You see, that's how it works. That's science. We've got to keep stem alive in America and in other parts of the world, y', all, I'm telling you, it's not late here. It is not even 8:30.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But I'm feeling goofy and I'm doing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

This for you, so you're welcome in advance. What a time we're going to have.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

I have to say that I've heard.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And read the comments from Dumbledore sympathizers, Dumbledore lovers, and. And I'm sorry. I know that at the beginning of the episode I talked a lot of trash and I don't take any of it back. But I do say that I want to acknowledge that you all are feeling like your king is not getting his due. And to remedy that, for those of you who are chronic overthinkers or deep divers, I have been given permission by Eric, who is Dumbledore's largest offender, to share his essay. And it is an essay on Dumbledore and it's in defense of him. So if you are looking for someone who appreciates how attacked you might be feeling on behalf of your king, just know that there is on the Patreon a document that exists that offers you.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The ability to find commonality, find community.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And I did that. I'm joking. Eric did that. I just posted it. I also posted the survey responses so that you can read through some of the comments if that is your vibe. And maybe there you can find solace and support. And so don't ever say I never gave you anything. Um, it might not come from me, but it is coming from those in.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The community with you. And that feels more important to me. And so if you are a chronic.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Overthinker or deep diver on Patreon, that is there for you as well as the survey responses. You're welcome. And I hope that you find what.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

You'Re looking for there.

[Professor Julian Womble]

If you have not joined us on Patreon, please feel free to do so. You can join for free and join in our post episode chat. You can also join as an outstanding OWL where you get ad free episodes. You can join as a Deep Diver where you get ad free episodes as well as bonus episodes as well as.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Access to things like the survey and.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Essays from some of our listeners. And if you're a chronic overthinker, you get all of that plus monthly meetups. If you have not filled out the survey for the monthly meetup, do so because I am going to be posting when we're meeting soon and I don't.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Want to hear any of the antics.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Because you forgot to fill out the survey.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Okay, bars.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Enough of that. It's time for us to get into this episode. It's time for us to discuss Albus Dumbledore. This Prof. Is about to respond. So buckle up friends, because it's gonna be a bumpy ride. That is a quote from a Harry Potter movie. I feel very proud of myself for that. You are welcome. You are welcome. Anyways, let's get into it.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

One of the things that came up a lot in the post episode chat was was a conversation about the preventative measures that Dumbledore could have but did not take in terms of Voldemort's Tommy Ridd's Voldiva's progression. And Nadia asked the question, what role did Dumbledore play in the creation of Voldiva? He recognized early signs of evil in young Tom, but failed to intervene decisively. Would his destruction have been necessary if.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Tommy Jay received the same level of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Care and attention as Dumbledore showed?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Harry Fenty said, I'm no Dumbbell's apologist, but I don't think it's fair to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Place all the blame for Voldiva on him.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

I can't see Lil Tommy J.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That sounds like a rapper. Lil Tommy J. Don't say it out too loud, y'. All. Someone will take it and run with it and then we'll just have a noseless rapper running around here. We just can't risk it. So we'll keep this within our our community anyways. Fenty writes, I can't see Lil Tommy J paying any attention to any restraint Brian or others might have wanted to put in place. And Miroslava wrote, people call Dumbledore a Muggle lover. There has to be a reason.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Can we say he's done nothing besides.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Maintaining the status quo? He's done more than most. He's only one person.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

It's my turn.

[Professor Julian Womble]

My voice is. Anyways, the old it's fine. I want to start by addressing what Miroslava wrote, because I think it really stuck out to me. And also I think it's something that is true and we see as a defense for Dumbledore quite a bit. People call him a Muggle lover and there has to be a reason. Listen, y', all. I hear it. I hear that.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But I also think that we need.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To name something very, very, very clearly. The bar for being labeled a Muggle lover in the wizarding world is legitimately in Beelzebub's lair. It's in the 12th circle in hell. Are there even 12? If there are, that's where it is.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Because you don't even have to be.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Marching in the streets for Muggle rights to earn that title. The label isn't bestowed by the virtuous, it's hurled by bigots.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

It's a designation created by Muggle haters used against anyone who doesn't share their extremism. So it doesn't necessarily tell us anything about Dumbledore's moral compass or his relationship.

[Professor Julian Womble]

With non magical people. If anything, it tells us more about.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The people calling him that than it.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Tells us anything about him. And so yes, there's no denying that Dumbledore is not a Death Eater in terms of his perspective on non magical people. However, simultaneously, concurrently, and I still maintain that there is some issues with the way that he treats non magical people in particular.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And again, if we think about the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

People who are calling him a Muggle lover and we think about their relationship with non magical people, it stands to reason that all it takes is you not wanting to see non magical people dead to be considered one. So is that a compliment? I don't know that I would go that far. It does seem important though to highlight this particular reality. So I'm grateful for Miroslava's comment because I do think that people what's gonna come up for us a bit in this episode is our understanding of Dumbledore's.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Politic and what conclusions we as readers.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Are meant to draw based on his role in the war and his relationship with non magical people that we really don't get to see very much except for when he comes to see the Dursleys.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And so I do think that this.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is a really important entree, Entree. Entree into our conversation because I do.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Think that it shines an important light.

[Professor Julian Womble]

On a misconception about Dumbledore for some of us as it pertains to what he fundamentally does believe.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But before we get into that and.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Really get into the weeds of it, we also need to discuss a really important part of the dynamic that we see between Dumbledore and Tom Riddle.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And one of the things that really.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Struck me about a lot of the conversations going on in the post episode chat was this conversation surrounding the dynamic between these two characters. And as I've said before, I always get them mixed up and there's a lot of reasons why that's the case.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But there's a moment that I do.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Want us to talk about that I think is really important.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And it's the moment after we've watched.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The memory where Dumbledore has gone back and he sees and meets Tom Riddle for the first time and they come out of the pensie and Harry says.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Did you know then? Did I know that I had just.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Met the most dangerous dark wizard of all time?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Said Dumbledore. No, I had no idea. However, I was certainly intrigued by Him. I returned to Hogwarts intending to keep.

[Professor Julian Womble]

An eye on him, something I should.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Have done, given that he was alone and friendless. And then he goes on to say, and this is the part that gets me every single time. The stories of using magic against people to frighten, to punish, to control the strangled rabbit, the young boy and girl he lured into the cave, they were the most suggestive. Suggestive, sir, he was telling you he could hurt living beings whenever he felt like it.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Let me be so clear. Dumbledore met an 11 year old exhibiting textbook signs of violent behavioral pathology what.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

We would describe today as early markers.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Of antisocial personality disorder.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And he essentially said, well, let's just get him a wand and see where it goes. And I'm not saying that to be flippant. I'm saying it because this is the foundational question of this particular theme. How could he not know? How could Dumbledore witness all of that and still send Tom Riddle, alone, unmonitored, unsupervised, into a magical marketplace full of tools he could use to amplify the cruelty he had already displayed and had no shame in giving voice to? And when Harry presses him on this, when Harry gives him an opportunity to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Sit in that reflection, Dumbledore basically punts. Well, we don't have time to get into all of that. Well, guess who does have time? Dumby D me.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And this is where I want to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Bring in what Nadia wrote because I.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Think it's articulated the emotional core of the tension. Dumbledore claims to have recognized early signs of evil in young Tom Riddle, but failed to intervene decisively. Nadia's point is not that Dumbledore made Voldemort to me. The point is that he saw something no one else in the magical world saw and then decided not to act on it. So much so that by the time Tom Riddle gets to Hogwarts, he's learned.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The skill that will become the hallmark of his evil. The veneer, the charm, the charisma, the cultivated pleasantness.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But only Dumbledore knew what existed underneath all of that. And this is why Fenty's comment resonates here too. The comment. I can't see Tom Riddle paying attention to any constraint Brian or others may have wanted to put into place. And here's the thing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I absolutely agree with that.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Maybe Tommy Riddz would not have obeyed.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Any boundary put in front of him. But to me, that's also not the point.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The point is, is that no boundary was even attempted. No consistent supervision, no mentorship designed around his actual needs, no protection for other students who would be exposed to him. Even after, at 11 years old, he told you he liked hurting people.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I think it's one thing to say this child might ignore intervention.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

It's another thing entirely to say we.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Will not intervene at all.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Because in some ways this is what Dumbledore's non intervention enabled. Tom's brilliant. His talent, his capacity for performance goes completely unchecked. And the brilliance becomes the very thing that a later allows him to recruit followers, manipulate peers, manipulate teachers, and eventually build an ideology around power, cruelty and supremacy. Brilliance unmonitored, becomes a weapon. And what's wild to me is that Dumbledore, all people knows this. It's the fact and the reality that he's been running from since Grindelwald disappearated after Ariana's death.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And to be clear, and I want to be so clear about this, because I know that some of you are already typing up these essays. Voldemort is responsible for Voldemort. Tom Riddle has so much agency, so much autonomy, some might say too much autonomy.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And it matters. But the reality also is that agency does not negate environment children, which is what Tom Riddle was when Voldemen Dumbledore met him. They don't become monsters in a vacuum. And Dumbledore had unique access to the earliest signs, the most honest, unfiltered, unfettered.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Version of Tom Riddle that we ever see.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And he left the veneer form anyway.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It actually matters that Dumbledore saw Tom express pleasure in violence and did nothing.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

It matters that he recognized Tom's isolation and did nothing. It matters that he knew that Tommy Riddes was dangerous and did nothing. And it matters because no one else, not a single soul in the magical world, had that information. He is the only one who went to visit him. He's the only one who was there to meet with this child and hear this child speak about what he thought was appropriate, what he thought his displays of power meant, what he thought he could use. His power. 4.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Dumbledore is the only person who could see that, who knew that, who experienced that.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

No one else did so. No one else had the power, knowledge or foresight to intervene. This is one of these moments when.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We talk about information that's pertinent, that Dumbledore doesn't share. This is one of those, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm going to own that for me. You may disagree. I welcome it. I can't wait to hear about it. Meet me in the post episode chat.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But in this moment he knows things that are very important because Voldiva, Tommy.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Riddz, cause he's not even Voldiva at this moment.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Tommy Riddz was happy to hurt children. You are bringing him into your school. Someone who has admittedly disgust hurting other children. And Dumbledore admits, I should have kept an eye on him for others sake.

[Professor Julian Womble]

As much as his.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

It's one of the rare moments in.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The series where Dumbledore acknowledges his failure.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And even then we get it. It's a very fleeting thing. He retreats, he pulls away. He does not want to look at the monster because to me I think.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It'S also something of a reflection of him. So as I read through the comments of the conversation that was had in the post episode chat, to me the.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Question was not, did Dumbledore create Voldemort? To me the question is, what would the magical world have looked like if the first adult, Tam Riddle ever encountered.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The first magical adult he ever encountered, the first person with actual power over him, had taken the signs seriously?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And the reality is we'll never know. But the fact that we can ask.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The question at all tells us that Dumbledore's failure was not a strategy.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

It was moral. And it shaped everything that came next.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I am not saying that Dumbledore created Voldemort. I think Voldemort would have been Voldemort. But I think it would have been a lot harder for him to be Voldemort if people had taken seriously what he was telling them to their face. If Dumbledore had actually allowed himself to believe it was possible that this child could be dangerous.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And he didn't.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And lives were lost at school because Tom Riddle believed he could get away with anything.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And why wouldn't he think that when.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He got away with looking a man.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Dead in the eyes who was the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Headmaster of the school and telling him the truth about who he was and what he was willing and able to do.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And the man said, cool.

[Professor Julian Womble]

See you at school in a couple weeks. One of the lines that I often think about as it pertains to Dumbledore is when he says something to the effect of, you know, being cleverer than most. My mistakes are bigger. And I don't think there's a bigger mistake than this one right here.

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[Matt Rogers]

This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey Bowen, it's gift season.

[Bowen Yang]

Ugh, stressing me out. Why are the people I love so hard to shop for?

[Matt Rogers]

Probably because they only make boring gift guides that are totally uninspired. Except for the guide we made in.

[Bowen Yang]

Partnership with Marshalls, where premium gifts meet incredible value.

[Matt Rogers]

It's giving gifts with categories like Best Gifts for the mom whose idea of a sensible walking shoe is a stiletto.

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Or Best Gifts for me that were so thoughtful I really shouldn't have.

[Matt Rogers]

Check out the guide on marshalls.com and.

[Bowen Yang]

Gift the good stuff at Marshalls.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The next theme that we're going to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Be discussing is one that focuses on the mythos of Albus Dumbledore. Why did I say like that Albus Dumbledore anyways? Loser Lorian wrote, if Harry's first introduction to the wizarding world wasn't Hagrid, do.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

We think he'd still be inclined to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Fawn at the altar of Dumby?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Cassie wrote, Hagrid helped ingrain the idea.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That Grandpa Brian sent him there to quote unquote save Harry and that Dumbledore was basically God incarnate.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Charlie wrote, everyone knows the Dursleys are horrible before meeting them.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Does that make it about their stance toward Muggles or towards the Dursleys? Impossible to know a feeling of J.K. rowling. One of the things that stands out most to me when I think about Harry's relationship with Dumbledore is the sheer durability of it. The durability of his love for Dumbledore, the durability of his trust in Dumbledore. It survives things that, honestly, I don't think it should have survived. It survives the entirety of Order of the Phoenix, an entire school year of Dumbledore just avoiding him, ignoring him and refusing to make eye contact with him.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And refusing to explain anything to him. Even as Harry is being isolated, gaslit by the Ministry, traumatized by visions and ultimately possessed by Voldemort.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It survives Sirius death.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And yet at the end of it all, when Dumbledore finally sits him down.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And gives him the explanation he should have given him months and months and months earlier, Harry just accepts it.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He's hurt and angry and confused, but.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Ultimately he just accepts it.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And more importantly, he doesn't ask anything.

[Professor Julian Womble]

More of Dumbledore than those words.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And to me, that kind of forgiveness just doesn't seem logical.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And maybe this is a thing that I'm. That's my fault. It's my flaw. I'm working on it in therapy. Everyone, everyone chill out. Relax. It's all good. We're gonna get through this together.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But to me, so much of this.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is based on the idea that Harry.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Believes that Dumbledore and everything that he does is inherently good. All of the mythos surrounding Dumbledore suggests.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That this is the case.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And I think in the world that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Harry exists in, where, especially at that moment where Voldiva is living in them. Thoughts. He's looking through the eyes of snakes who are attacking his father's best friend and his own surrogate dad.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He needs that. He needs to have faith in something that feels solid and sure and together. And we also can't discount the power dynamic here. Dumbledore doesn't interact with Harry consistently. He oscillates between roles depending on what he needs from Harry in the moment. Sometimes Harry's a kid, sometimes he's an.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Adult, sometimes he's a student, sometimes he's a soldier, sometimes he's all of those.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Things plus he's the chosen one.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And Harry, because of his trauma, just goes with it.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He doesn't have the emotional grounding or the self protective instincts to say, actually no, you don't get to treat me like this.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Harry is not good at accountability. He is good at anger and frustration and reasonably so.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But he doesn't hold people to the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Fire when they wrong him, he doesn't do it to Ron, sometimes he does it to Hermione, which is a whole other conversation to be had. And he doesn't do it with Dumbledore, not even close.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He gets hurt, but he doesn't withhold love, which is like a beautiful, beautiful.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Thing, but also some post abuse attachment work.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He has learned his whole life that if he pushes back too hard, he might lose the people that matter to him. And so he doesn't push at all. And Dumbledore more than anyone, is the person that Harry cannot afford to lose. Because Dumbledore represents safety and meaning and belonging and identity in the wizarding world, Dumbledore is the narrative anchor that gives Harry's life coherence. He's the adult who actually saw Harry for who he was, even if the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Ways he saw him were deeply flawed. And so Harry lets him get away.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

With things that would shatter any other relationship.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He lets him leave without explanation, he.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Lets him withhold world changing information, he lets him introduce danger into his life without fully preparing him for it. And what's fascinating is that we see.

[Professor Julian Womble]

This same dynamic resurface in the Half Blood Prince. After everything that happened at the Ministry, after the betrayal, abandonment, silence.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

When Dumbledore sends that letter saying that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He'S going to show up at Privet.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Drive in the dead of night, Harry is excited. He's relieved. The attachment is immediate and intact with.

[Professor Julian Womble]

So little if any lingering resentment. There's no negotiation. It's just like thank goodness.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And when we want to understand that the post episode chats brought a discussion.

[Professor Julian Womble]

About myth making starts to fall into place.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Because Harry doesn't just admire Dumbledore, he needs him to be who the world says he is.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Because, and I think that this is also true for many of us who.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Read Dumbledore as children and who have.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Such a strong attachment to him now as adults.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

If Dumbledore isn't the person who the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Wizarding world says he is, then the.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Whole architecture of how we understand the wizarding world and Harry's life, why he.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Survived, why he suffered, why he matters.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

At all, it all begins to crumble. There's a moment in Deathly Hallows when he confronts Aberforth with the truth. And Aberforth is like, let me tell.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You something about who this man was.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And essentially says, you've been worshiping an idea, a figment of the imagination of the populace. He was not who you think he was. Harry has this same thought when he finally reads the lies and life, the life and lies of Albus Dumbledore. And he still says, well, I knew someone else. And that's the one that I'm choosing to believe in. That's the one who I'm allowing to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Guide me to my sudden death, my certain death. That is a myth, that is not a biography.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

That is love rooted in necessity.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That is trauma bonding disguised as loyalty.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Harry believes Dumbledore because believing Dumbledore is safer than asking questions of him. Because Harry can't emotionally survive the idea that the man he trusted with his life might have failed, failed him. Because Harry's entire sense of place in the wizarding world depends on the idea.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That someone powerful like Dumbledore wanted him.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

To be there, not just as a.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Weapon, but as a person. And so I think the conversation in the post episode chat is right.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The wizarding world builds Dumbledore's myth, but Harry is the one who lives inside it. And he stays inside it long past the point where it is sustainable. Because the alternative of stepping outside the myth and seeing this flawed, incredibly, incredibly gifted but messy man would mean confronting a truth about himself that Harry wasn't ready to face.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And that, to me, is the heartbreak of it all.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Harry doesn't love Dumbledore blindly. He loves him desperately. And desperation turns myth into memory and memory into truth long after truth has crumbled, if it was there at all. And I think that that is also.

[Professor Julian Womble]

True of us, that so many of.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Us glommed onto Dumbledore because he was so steadfast in his purported omniscience. He always had the answer. And when you are a preteen teenager, you think you have the answers, but when you get it wrong, all you want to do is go to someone who won't blame you for the mistakes that you've made, but will say, here.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Here's the path ahead.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Here's how you get there. Here's where you made mistakes. And so much of Dumbledore's pedagogy, if.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That'S what we want to call it, that might be too generous, is doing that.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Is a helpful but not blaming.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Hand to guide Harry in a direction. It's the direction that Dumbledore wants him to go. But Harry doesn't know that.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

We didn't know that. And so many of us love these.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Books because there were moments in our lives where we felt very, very, very lost. And love it or hate it, Dumbledore was a solid foundation to stand on in the midst of the swirling sea that is the hormonal reality of what it means to be anywhere in the age range of these books, 11 to 17. A Charybdis of chaos and disaster.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And like Dumbledore did during the attack of the Inferior in that cave where.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He'S standing there, he's falling apart internally, but he is strong enough to use.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And wield that fire to protect Harry.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I think that that's the guy that so many of us are protecting.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And I get it. And I don't blame you.

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[Matt Rogers]

This is Matt Rogers from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey Bowen, it's gift season.

[Bowen Yang]

Ugh, stressing me out. Why are the people I love so hard to shop for?

[Matt Rogers]

Probably because they only make boring gift guides that are totally uninspired. Except for the guide we made in.

[Bowen Yang]

Partnership with Marshalls, where premium gifts meet incredible value.

[Matt Rogers]

It's giving gifts with categories like Best Gifts for the mom whose idea of a sensible walking shoe is a stiletto.

[Bowen Yang]

Or Best gifts for me that were so thoughtful I really shouldn't have.

[Matt Rogers]

Check out the guide on marshalls.com and.

[Bowen Yang]

Gift the good stuff at Marshalls.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The next theme that can came up was one that discussed the Order of the Phoenix and tackled the question that I posed. Or maybe it wasn't even a question, but it was more of a statement I think.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

No, I think it was a question actually.

[Professor Julian Womble]

If I think about it hard enough, maybe it's a revisionist history, but go with me. It's my podcast. What I say goes. Dictatorship has come to the pod.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Wow.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Never takes too long. Does.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Was a comment question concern who's.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To say about whether or not the Order of the Phoenix was a cult? And many of you had some thoughts on this. And Eric, our chief Dumbledore defender, had this to say. I don't think they're a military or a cult. I think the Order is aspiring. They operate in silos. They need a central leader to move information. They need leverage. Matt wrote the Order gets beaten by Death Eaters pretty consistently. These kids with inconsistent Defense against the Dark Arts education are more talented and powerful than the Order. And Jazz wrote Dumbledore couldn't fully give.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Himself to one role or the other. Maybe he should have let many take.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Charge of the castle during the war years.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Reading the comments about the Order of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The Phoenix and all of the different thoughts that you all had, one thing kept coming up for me personally and I kept think like what is the point of the Order of the Phoenix and why does it function the way that it does?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

One of the biggest challenges in assessing Dumbledore as a leader of the Order of the Phoenix is that we still have very little idea about what the Order actually is. And the post episode chat conversation this week made that clearer to me than ever. We can't figure out whether he's a good leader because the organization he's leading is at its core, undefined.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Eric's suggestion that the Order is aspiring makes a certain kind of sense.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But then you start to list what.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The Order actually does. Snape is the only true spy. Kingsley and Arthur are embedded in the Ministry. Haggard and Lupin are out doing diplomatic community building with giants and werewolves respectively.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Bill is bringing in technical expertise from.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Gringotts, Mundungus is stealing, Molly is running Grimald Place and the others are doing.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Guard ships, transport duty, communication networks, household management.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Eric is right. It's not a military, it's not a paramilitary, it's not a resistance cell or an intelligence agency. It's not even a clear political organization. And I'm not sure whether or not it's aspiring.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

It seems to be everything and nothing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

At the same time. Which means because it's ultimately organized around.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

One single gravitational center, Albed the Order becomes what he needs it to be at any given moment because he never defines what it's supposed to be in the first place. And that's exactly why Matt's point hits so hard. The Order simply isn't good at what it's doing. They're not trained or coordinated. And they are constantly outmatched by the Death Eaters, a group that on paper.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Should be far less organized.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And Jazz points out one of the major reasons why Dumbledore is stretched impossibly thin.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He's teaching, headmastering, politicking, strategizing, mentoring, hiding.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And trying to prevent the world ending.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Prophecy from detonating all at once.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Which then leads to the fundamental question of what is the Order's actual goal? Is it stopping Voldemort?

[Professor Julian Womble]

They can't do it without Harry protecting the public.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

They don't have the size or the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Infrastructure or the ideology, honestly. Is it slowing down Voldemort?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Maybe.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But that seems like less of a mission and more of a stall tactic.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And when you contrast the Order with.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The Death Eaters, the difference is laughable.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The Death Eaters know exactly who they are. They have a clear ideological center, hate and violence.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But they are unified.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

They have a clear, articulated hierarchy. They have a shared sense of purpose. They have a leader who only cares.

[Professor Julian Womble]

About one thing and is entirely consumed by it. Voldemort has one obsession. Dumbledore also has one obsession, but like 30 different ways to try to address it.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And that matters because an organization always reflects its leader.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And this is where I actually think, you know, as a political scientist, that political metaphors become unavoidable because we know.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

What unfocused leadership looks like. And we know what it looks like.

[Professor Julian Womble]

When one political party in our world tries to hold complexity, idealism, institutional ethics, while the other party operates on raw, distilled conviction, even if that conviction is rooted in fear, resentment and authoritarianism.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

We know what it looks like when one side is trying to govern and the other side is trying to dominate. When one side is juggling 20 priorities.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And the other side is laser focused.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

On a single hideous, ugly one. When one side wants to save everyone and the other side wants to punish anyone who disagrees. And if I'm being honest, the Order.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Feels a lot like the Democratic Party in the United States at its most.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Frustrating, earnest, overextended, trying to do everything the quote, unquote, right way, playing respectability.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Politics in the middle of a fire.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Convinced that the moral clarity alone can hold a fractured coalition together.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And the Death Eaters, they're the Republican Party in the United States.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

At its most dangerous, unified around grievance that is fictional, centralized around a figurehead willing to use whatever tools of intimidation, fear, dominance are available and terrifyingly effective because of that cohesion.

[Professor Julian Womble]

This isn't about false equivalency. It's about structural comparison.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

It's about understanding why one group moves.

[Professor Julian Womble]

As a blunt force instrument and the.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Other one moves like a disorganized committee meeting. And once you see the parallel, the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Order makes perfect sense.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The lack of cohesion isn't incidental, it's baked in.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Its chaos isn't accidental, it's a reflection.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Its confusion isn't a flaw of the group, it's a flaw of its leadership model. Because Dumbledore is not focused on one thing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He's trying to hold a school together. A war, a prophecy, a child, an.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

International diplomatic position, a moral compass. And his own fear of becoming the man he once loved and then had to destroy. Ugh.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Just reading that was too much for me. Let alone trying to embody it and live it at the same time.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He is leading from guilt, from caution, from idealism, and from a deep, deep emotional fragment. And the Order reflects that fragmentation back to us. So maybe the real question isn't whether.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Dumbledore was a bad leader of the Order or a good one.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Maybe the question is whether the Order.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Itself was ever built to succeed or.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Whether it was built to orbit one man whose internal conflicts and being pulled in many different directions because of the brilliance and the mythos that he's allowed to flourish made coherence impossible.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Because the moment he dies, the Order collapses. Not because the mission was over, but.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Because the mission was never clearly defined.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In the first place. The next theme that we are going to be talking about about is one that comes from my commentary on Dumbledore's relationship with power and how we are made to understand it. Rachel P wrote, what is the legacy?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Most people in the wizarding world see.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Him as a hero, but as readers, we start to question whether he actually is. K. Metzval wrote, if Dumbledore truly had all this power as Hogwarts teacher, Headmaster over generations, why don't we see that in the Ministry? Why don't we see more fairness? It's time for us to have that conversation. I really want to focus my energies on what Kay Metzful wrote because I think that it also ties into Rachel P's comment about the understanding of who Dumbledore actually is and how we then reconcile that with the legacy that has been kind of placed upon him.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The question of why does the Wizarding world look the way that it does.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Even after decades of Dumbledore seemingly shaping its brightest minds.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And the question kind of cuts through.

[Professor Julian Womble]

All of the mystique and mythos of Dumbledore and really begs a larger question about the influence that he has over generations. Right?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

If every witch or wizard or magical person passed under his tutelage, then why is this, the wizarding world, the same, so easily manipulated? And when you sit with that question.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Long enough, the answer becomes painfully and frustratingly clear.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Because being anti Voldemort doesn't mean that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You'Re anti Pure Blood supremacy.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

This is a refrain that I've had.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Many, many times throughout our time together on the podcast.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And I think it bears repeating here.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Even for Grandpa Brian, right?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Being against one dark wizard does not mean being against the systems that produce dark wizards, especially when you are the leader of one of those systems, one of those institutions. And being tolerant of Muggles in private doesn't make you an anti supremacist in public. I think the reality that we have to accept, or at least that I'm.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Going to accept, I won't tell you what to do. I know that I was giving a bit of, you know, dictator before, but I'm back now. I'm not going to tell you what to do.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But for me, I think the reality and the answer to this question is, is that Dumbledore is not a system changer. And I don't think he ever tries to be.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Yes, he calls out prejudice when it's overt, when it's loud, when it's embodied.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

In a single individual.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But he does not interrogate the institution that makes the prejudice possible.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He hasn't challenged the structure. He doesn't challenge the economic systems, the cultural myths, the political arrangements, the foundational hierarchies of wizarding life. He sees the problem as the people, not the systems. Hestia Jones says it plainly. The Order of the Phoenix and everything.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That is being worked on that Dumbledore.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Is at the helm of is the anti Voldemort movement.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And that's exactly right. That is all Dumbledore's after.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He wants Voldemort gone. I almost did it again.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Jeez.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He wants Voldemort gone. He does not want the world that produced Voldemort to change. We see it everywhere. This is the same Dumbledore who is perfectly comfortable with the enslavement of house elves.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Yes, he pays Dobby because Dobby requests to be paid. But the reality of the situation is, is that his contentment with Having house elves speaks volumes. I also.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

We also realize that he's content with.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Harry having one as well.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

This is the same Dumbledore who allows a ghost to teach history despite the educational cost to every child who passes through the classroom. Benz has been teaching the same material for over a hundred years and we've.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Had absolutely no change whatsoever and no interrogation of that.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

This is the same Dumbledore who fills Divination with someone he personally does not respect.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Not because he believes in expanding the.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Curriculum, because he was getting ready to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Get rid of Divination, but because he.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Needs to protect the person who gave.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The prophecy that explains what's going to happen.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

This is the same Dumbledore who watched funds descend into paranoia, fear mongering and propaganda after Voldemort's first fall and did.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Nothing to reform the structure that allowed it to happen. In other words, Dumbledore accepts the system.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

As it is as long as the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Person perched at the top isn't someone.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Like Grindelwald or Voldemort. And that's the key. That's the uncomfortable truth behind the myth. Dumbledore is a one bad apple thinker in a world where the orchard is the problem. He believes the system can work if.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The right person is inside it. He believes that the Ministry can function.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

If the Minister has integrity. He believes that Hogwarts is fine if.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Someone like him is in charge.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He believes that the International Confederation of Wizards can provide order as long as there is someone he believes is doing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A good job, is doing the job.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And this is where intent becomes irrelevant. Because even if we take the most generous posture, even if we imagine. Dumbledore declined the Ministry because he was afraid of his own flaws, afraid of what power might do to him. The outcome is the same stagnation. Nothing changes fundamentally, structurally, permanently. The people he teaches grow into adults who still carry the same prejudices, the same superiority complexes and ignorance about non magical life. They fear what he fears, they also fight what he fights. But they do not see. What he does not see and what he does not see or refuses to see are the institutional and structural problems that permeate the wizarding world. Dumbledore solves for Voldemort, he does not solve for Voldemortism. He defeated Grindelwald, and within a generation the wizarding world produces another Dark Lord born from the same soil of blood, supremacy, fear, resentment and institutional negligence. If anything, the fact that Grindelwald's defeat led not to reform, but to Voldemort tells us everything.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Dumbledore's legacy is not that he changed the wizarding world.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

His legacy is that he preserved it. He kept it intact. And there's a way in which we could see how that particular thing could be warped into something good. If you are blind to the realities of what it actually means. Dumbledore made sure that the structure could continue to function as it always had without destabilization of another charismatic tyrant at the center. And for Dumbledore, that seems to be enough. That seems to be the line. The world he lived in didn't need restructuring, it just needed to be protected.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He wasn't trying to liberate anyone.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

He's trying to maintain equilibrium. And that's why the wizarding world doesn't fundamentally transform, even after decades of his influence. Because Dumbledore doesn't believe it needs to. He's anti Voldemort. He's anti Grindelwald. He is not anti Pure Blood supremacy.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And so he leaves the system exactly how he found it. Flawed, prejudiced, fragile, and entirely unprepared for whatever comes next.

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[Matt Rogers]

This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey Bowen, it's gift season.

[Bowen Yang]

Ugh, stressing me out. Why are the people I love so hard to shop for?

[Matt Rogers]

Probably because they only make boring gift guides that are totally uninspired. Except for the guide we made in.

[Bowen Yang]

Partnership with Marshalls, where premium gifts meet incredible value.

[Matt Rogers]

It's giving gifts with categories like Best Gifts for the mom whose idea of a sensible walking shoe is a stiletto.

[Bowen Yang]

Or Best Gifts for me that were so thoughtful I really shouldn't have Check.

[Matt Rogers]

Out the guide on marshalls.com and gift.

[Bowen Yang]

The good stuff at Marshalls.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

One question haunts and hurts too much, too much to mention. Was I really seeking good or just seeking attention? Is that all good deeds are when looked at with an ice cold eye?

[Professor Julian Womble]

That's my eye. My eye is ice cold.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

If that's all good deeds are, maybe that's the reason why no good deed goes unpunished.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That is from Wicked. The vocal is from me though. I told people that I would do it, but I was afraid to show up. Cynthia Erivo and now I've decided that I don't care about that because it's impossible. But I think that this also sets us up really nicely. It wasn't just a moment of vocal vanity. It also serves a purpose in that I think it sets us up for a really good conversation. And my reflection on Dumbledore and why.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Dumbledore's good intentions may not have been enough.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You see?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

No good deed, good intentions.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And before I go any further, I just want to say I want to start with some empathy. I realize that for some people, as I mentioned before, Dumbledore is a really, really, really meaningful and important character for a number of reasons. And I get that.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Because when I was growing up, Dumbledore was my guy. He was the wise, wizened grandfather figure, the gentle mentor, the one adult who seemed to understand me, Harry, when nobody else did. He felt so safe and magical and like an adult so many of us wished we had. And I think that for so many listeners, he still holds that place. But loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And I don't critique Dumbledore because I never loved him. I think I'd critique him because I did.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Because it took me a really, really, really long time to kind of take.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The scales off of my eyes and really, really lock in on who this person is.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And I understand why people feel protective.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Of him and why they bristle at my criticism and why they are calling me out for not being as generous to him as they would want me to be.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And they are calling me in to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Recognize that he's a single person who can't do everything.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

I get all of that. I really, really do. And to me, it's kind of the same reason why many people react so strongly to Molly Weasley.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I know some of you may not have been here for our first episode, but I'm sure many of you have listened to it.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And one of the things that always.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Surprises me about that episode is how hard people are on Molly. My God, they are so hard on her. And very difficult and very critical of her mothering, of her parenting, of just who she is as a person.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And I think when we're young, Molly feels like the mother that we wanted.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In a lot of ways, for many of us, not all of us. Right.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And I think in that same way, Dumbledore feels or felt like the guardian that we needed. And it's only when you grow up, when you've lived and when you've survived things and you can look back and see things for what they were, but you couldn't quite comprehend. And so if you're feeling defensive or.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Unsettled or protective, I totally get it. I've been there.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But again, loving a character doesn't mean.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We can't tell the truth about them.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And Dumbledore is one of the most complicated characters in the series. Not in spite of the seemingly, like, flat arc he has, but because of it. He seems simple when you're young because of the way we experience him. And it's refracted through Harry's deep, aching need for someone like him.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And that brings me to the core of this reflection.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

War and accountability and the danger of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Treating necessity as absolution.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

One of the themes that kept coming.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Up over and over again in the post episode chat, both for the last episode but the episode's past, is this.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Idea that wartime morality is different.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That some of the choices Dumbledore makes.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The manipulation, the secrecy, the lack of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Transparency, withholding of information, are justified because it's war. And look, I get the logic.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Voldemort is uniquely dangerous. His power is unprecedented. To be clear, this son of a son cheated death, came back, got his.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Body done, and wreaked havoc like he never left.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

His capacity for violence is extraordinary. And in the face of that, war absolutely distorts the landscape of morality. But here, for me, is the problem.

[Professor Julian Womble]

With using war as a justification.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Dumbledore is never not fighting a war. He fights Grindelwald as a teenager. He fights his own capacity for tyranny for decades. He fights Tom Riddle from the moment they meet. He fights the Ministry's incompetence and fear. He fights Voldemort as a return threat. He fights the prophecy. He fights for the trauma of his past. He fights to keep Harry alive long enough to die at the right moment. He is always fighting. So if we say he had to do it, it was war. It seems to me that what we're really saying is Dumbledore never needs to be held accountable because he never leaves wartime conditions. That's not just justification, it's carte blanche. And historically, we know what that leads to. Cassie, I believe, is the one who.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Brought up the Hunger Games. Parallels between President Snow and President Coyne. If you're not familiar with these characters, these are two leaders who are framed as opposites. But at a certain point it becomes very clear to the protagonist that they are horrifyingly similar. Both use war as a justification for appalling moral choices, though they are seemingly coming from different sides of the ideological spectrum.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Both use fear to consolidate power and both rely on the belief that harshness is necessary. And in our world, in the United States after 9 11, wartime gave us the Patriot Act. Wartime fear gave us the erosion of civil liberties. Wartime fear gave us torture programs and narratives about weapons of mass destruction and an increase in Islamophobia. And the belief of leaders all over the world having justified harm by leaning into necessity. And it's only in hindsight that people say, oh wow, that was wrong.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Or oof, that was really, really harmful.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

We shouldn't have let that happen. War justifies things in the moment that we regret for decades. So when we say, well, Dumbledore had to do it, we are participating in a well documented historical pattern of giving leaders moral immunity under the banner of crisis. And Dumbledore operates within that immunity fully, whether intentionally or not. And here's where things get even more complicated. Whose war is this and who knows that they're fighting it? Dumbledore sees danger earlier than everyone else. He recognizes Voldemort's return while others are still in denial.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He sees institutional collapse before anyone else does.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But the people he recruits, especially, especially the children, don't know they're soldiers. Harry doesn't know he's a soldier until years into this. Hogwarts students don't know until the school becomes a battlefield and most members of the Order don't have the full picture. We talk a lot about what information people need.

[Professor Julian Womble]

One thing that people might have wanted to know, by my estimation, is we are at War.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Dumbledore fights a war long before anyone else realizes that they're in one. And that means he's making wartime decisions about people who think they're living in peacetime. And that, to me, is where accountability.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Becomes not optional, but necessary.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

War explains things, but it does not erase the harm done to unwitting participants. This is a very similar conversation to what we had about Snape. About the fact that he was a person who was doing all of these things for reasons that were his own but that were ultimately leading to good outcomes. But that doesn't undo the harm he caused. Same same thing here. And nowhere is this particularly more obvious than with Harry. Harry's trauma is the clearest evidence that necessity does not erase consequence. He is neglected and unprepared, emotionally manipulated, set apart, burdened with knowledge that isolates him, but also burdened with ignorance that completely leaves him unprepared, constricted to a prophecy that he didn't choose, and ultimately trained to die. None of that harm goes away because Voldemort is dangerous. And it doesn't get erased because the stakes were high. Necessity doesn't heal wounds and it doesn't remove trauma. And it does not justify the use of children as weapons. Especially when you are not asking for their consent to do so. Like I could hear, I can hear people saying, but Harry didn't have a choice. Okay, what about literally everyone else who ends up fighting in the Battle of Hogwarts?

[Professor Julian Womble]

Yes, they could have left, but Hogwarts was their home.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

They've also all been conditioned to understand that this is just what you do.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Because they've watched Harry do this every year since he arrived at Hogwarts.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And he was rewarded for it.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Remember that time I talked about how bravery was rewarded and recklessness was rewarded?

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Yes. Sometimes those chickens come home to roost, friends. And so I think we have to hold both truths at once. Dumbledore fought evil and Harry paid the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Price for his strategy.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And again.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It'S important to re emphasize this idea.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Dumbledore fights individuals, not institutions. He opposes dark wizards, not the world that creates them. He doesn't fight against magical exceptionalism.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He's magically exceptional. He fights people. Not for people, but he fights people.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Who take that ideology too far. He never addresses the symptoms of the system. And it's not because he's heartless.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It's because he's human.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And it's also because he is one of the biggest beneficiaries of the system.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We are talking about a man who.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Does not want people to know his sordid past.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We are talking about a man whose.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Talent is so legendary that he is literally listed as a living person with people who are long dead on cards, on all sorts of other memorabilia. And that benefits him because it means, like Voldemort, that he has a veneer that he can put up that keeps his sordid past behind it. That matters. Because why would you dismantle that system? How could you even recognize the problems with it if you are the beneficiary of it? That's the thing about privilege. The system, when it benefits you, makes.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Sure that you don't actually see the issues with it.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Dumbledore's formative wound, the moment that shapes the rest of his life, is Grindelwald. Not just the duel or the guilt, but the ideology of the greater good.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In that moment, he believed in structural revolution, passionately and dangerously, and that led to Ariana's death.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And if you believe in structures that way, then that also means that you have to internalize your role in the structure. No, thanks. So he seemingly spends the rest of his life avoiding structural confrontation. One, because I think it brings too.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Much to bear on himself, which is something that I've maintained throughout these episodes we've been doing on him.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

But also because, and I think this is a reality that many people who.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Are grappling with the realities of structural inequality have to grapple with.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Structural change is big. It feels insurmountable. It feels dangerous. And for Dumbledore, it feels too close to the things he once wanted for the wrong reasons. He needs evil to be embodied in one person. He needs Grindelwald to be anomalous. He needs Voldemort to be anomalous. Because if evil is systematic, then his failure with Grindelwald wasn't an isolated mistake. It was evidence that he helped shape a world that is built on injustice. And I think that that's too painful for him to deal with. So he fights the man and not the machine, the villain, and not the ideology that shaped it. The immediate threat, not the root cause. And this is why Dumbledore didn't change the world. He couldn't afford to believe that the world needed changing. He benefited from its stagnancy. And so here is the real problem with the if not him, then who?

[Professor Julian Womble]

Question.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

It sounds like admiration, but it functions like absolution. It shuts down critique. It frames harm as inevitable. It excuses trauma as necessary. And it equates leadership with immunity. And it blurs the line between Dumbledore's autonomy and Voldemort's autonomy. Both men operate with complete freedom. Both answer to no one. Both believe their vision requires extraordinary measures.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Both have followers who rarely question them.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

The difference here is meant to be their moral compass.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But the structure of their power is the same.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

And that's why accountability matters. Because it's the only thing that distinguishes ethical power from violent power. I want to be so clear. Dumbledore's flaw is not that he fought evil. His flaw is that he believed that evil lived in a single person. He believed that removing Voldemort would restore balance. That stopping Grindelwald would be enough to prevent another Dark Lord. He believed that defeating the villain ended the story. But the wizarding world was broken long before Voldemort, before Grindelwald. And it remained broken long after Dumbledore dies. And if we want to understand Dumbledore honestly, ethically, and with the full range of his brilliance and his harm, then we must sit with this. He fought evil, but he never changed the world that allowed it to flourish. And if war was his permanent state, then accountability must be our permanent responsibility. Because we cannot keep granting moral immunity to leaders simply because they were the only ones willing to act. Necessity is not absolution. Heroism is not immunity. And the greater good is not an excuse.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Yes, Dumbledore helped save the world from.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Voldemort, but he did not build a world that could survive without him in it. And that distinction, that gap between victory and justice, is where accountability lives.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And my invitation for us is to try to hold these things in conversation.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

With one another, in full recognition that none of the good that does happen. The fall of Voldemort is possible without Dumbledore. But Voldemort being vanquished is not the only thing that Dumbledore is responsible for. And some of that he needs to be held accountable for.

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[Matt Rogers]

This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Bowen Yang]

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culturist with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey Bowen, it's gift season stressing me out.

[Bowen Yang]

Why are the people I love so hard to shop for?

[Matt Rogers]

Probably because they only make money boring gift guides that are totally uninspired except for the guide we made in partnership.

[Bowen Yang]

With Marshalls where premium gifts meet incredible value.

[Matt Rogers]

It's giving gifts with categories like Best Gifts for the mom whose idea of a sensible walking shoe is a stiletto.

[Bowen Yang]

Or Best Gifts for me that were so thoughtful I really shouldn't have.

[Matt Rogers]

Check out the guide on marshalls.com and.

[Bowen Yang]

Gift the good stuff at Marshall's Foreign.

[Professor Julian Womble]

This has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

I'm Professor Julian Womble and if you like today's episode.

[Professor Julian Womble]

First of all, thank you. Please feel free to like, rate, subscribe and do all the things that one does where pods are cast y'. All.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Thank you so much for pushing me.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In this episode with your comments in the post episode chat. I really had to dig deep here and I am. I'm always so grateful to be in conversation with you.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

I cannot wait to be in more.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Conversation with you in the post episode chat, y'. All. We only have two more episodes on Dumbledore.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

What a time to be alive.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I cannot wait to continue this conversation with you. I know some of these takes might have been a little bit spicy and so I know that many of you will have things to say.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

I cannot wait to hear what you have to say.

[Professor Julian Womble]

If you haven't joined us on Patreon, please feel free to do [e-mail] Christopher Political magic theory.

[Co-host / Podcast Partner]

Until then, be critical and stay magical my friends. Bye.

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