Prof Responds: The Repentance, Regrets, and Reality of Severus Snape

Summary

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Critical Magic Theory: An Analytical Harry Potter Podcast

Episode Summary: Prof Responds – The Repentance, Regrets, and Reality of Severus Snape

Host: Professor Julian Womble
Date: September 24, 2025
Episode Length: ~71 minutes

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Overview

In this special “Prof Responds” episode, Professor Julian Womble dives deeply into the community’s extensive commentary on Severus Snape, following an exceptionally engaged post-episode chat. Rather than remaining neutral, Prof. Womble openly shares his own nuanced, critical, and occasionally harsh perspectives on Snape, exploring themes of repentance, student abuse, problematic love, trauma, and the contrast between book and movie portrayals. The discussion is wide-ranging, tackling both the myth and reality of Snape’s legacy in the Harry Potter universe and examining the gendered standards by which we judge "redemption" and forgiveness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fandom Passion & Discourse Ground Rules

[02:02–11:08]

• Prof. Womble sets the stage by noting the heated, polarized debates in the post-Snape episode chat (close to 400 comments) and urges listeners to engage with "a touch more grace."
  • “Loving something doesn't mean you can't be critical of it.” (Womble, 02:24)
• Community guidance: If you cannot separate personal investment in Snape from the discussion, it’s okay to opt out, and no one should feel pressured to change another's mind.
  • “If your mind can’t be changed, I don’t know that it’s prudent...to try to change someone else’s mind.” (Womble, 07:36)
• Prof. Womble stresses accountability for both defenders and detractors, emphasizing constructive, community-building discourse.

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2. Repentance, Penance, and Snape’s Motivation

[13:39–24:30]

• Repentance Debate: Is Snape truly repentant—or merely regretful?
  • Listener Quotes:
    • “He never apologizes to Harry, not even in his dying breath. Says a lot.” (Liana, 14:44)
    • “Repentance isn’t just switching sides, it’s changing your heart. Snape never convinces me his heart changed—only that his loyalties did.” (Stephanie, 14:52)
• Womble's Analysis:
  • Snape’s actions (spying for Dumbledore, risking his life) are significant, but are they penance or lingering obsession?
  • His motivation circles back to Lily: “His goal was to preserve some living aspect of Lily on the mortal plane…” (Womble, 17:01)
  • There’s little evidence of ideological transformation or true opposition to pureblood supremacy; Snape’s fight was always and only for Lily.

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3. Abuse of Students

[25:14–32:20]

• Universal Agreement: Even Snape’s defenders struggle to justify his cruelty as a teacher.
  • “Neville got bullied…instead of dealing with it like the whole adult he allegedly is, he punched down on middle school kids repeatedly.” (Eleanor, 26:06)
  • “There is nothing about Snape's arc that justifies how he treats and teaches children. Nothing.” (Nikki, 26:29)
  • “What Severus Snape does in his classroom to students is deplorable. It is unforgivable…” (Womble, 30:20)
• Covers incidents with Neville (Trevor the toad), Hermione (slut-shaming, body-shaming), and Harry.
• Trauma and past bullying explain but “do not excuse” Snape’s actions: “They are explanations, but they are not excuses…” (Womble, 27:23)
• Womble asserts Snape should never have been a teacher: “He is completely ruining the mental health and the self-esteem of...children.” (Womble, 30:20)

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4. Lily, Love, and Obsession

[32:49–43:42]

• Re-Examining “Love”: Is Snape’s devotion to Lily love, or is it selfishness/obsession?
  • “If Voldemort had gone after Neville instead, Snape wouldn’t have cared. That tells me his whole redemption arc is self-serving.” (Amber J, 34:21)
• Womble is “loath to use the word love here”—emphasizes possessiveness, jealousy, and control in Snape’s connection to Lily.
  • Notable moment: When Dumbledore confronts Snape about caring only for Lily, not James or Harry, and Snape offers no rebuttal.
    • Dumbledore: “You disgust me.” (Prince’s Tale, recounted by Womble, 37:50)
• “That to me is not love. That is something else completely.” (Womble, 41:59)

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5. Trauma, Radicalization, and Accountability

[43:54–55:07]

• Snape’s tragic childhood and Slytherin/Death Eater pipeline discussed.
  • “Trauma explains behavior, but it doesn’t excuse it.” (Carmen, 44:27; echoed by Womble and others)
  • “At a certain point, we have to…hold them accountable. And so I’m actually pleased to find out when. And I guess it’s when we’re in our 30s…” (Womble, 45:17)
• Radicalization as a process rooted in loneliness, community, and exploitation of vulnerability.
• Womble notes that Snape repeatedly chose not to change paths, even after losing Lily—"there were opportunities...but he doubled down.”

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6. The “Baby Girlification” and Alan Rickman Effect

[55:33–62:00]

• The “baby girlification” of Snape: fandom’s softening of his image, credited substantially to Alan Rickman’s sympathetic portrayal.
  • “Do we forgive Snape, or do we forgive Rickman’s Snape?” (Womble, 56:13)
  • “They definitely watered down his nastiness in those films.” (Jazz, 56:32)
• The films omit or clean up many of Snape's worst moments, contributing to the perception of him as a misunderstood antihero.
• Womble advocates future comparison of character book-vs-movie dynamics: “There are very few characters...where the movie character is a drastically different character than the book Snape.” (Womble, 59:55)

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7. Reflection: Gender, Redemption, and Uneven Grace

[62:00–70:05]

• Prof. Womble’s major critique: Our forgiveness and “complication” of Snape is a gendered phenomenon.
  • “If Snape were a woman…Dolores Umbridge is hated…seven years emotionally tormenting children…Yet somehow we forgive him more…” (Womble, 64:36)
  • Comparison to Merope Gaunt and Petunia Dursley—both traumatized, both “kept Harry alive,” both judged far more harshly than Snape.
  • “Gendered patriarchy trains us to forgive men. It tells us to trace their bad behaviors back to pain, heartbreak, tragedy…but with women, we demand perfection…We don’t imagine their inner lives.” (Womble, 68:15)
• Snape’s legacy is "the asymmetry of our own grace."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Repentance isn’t just switching sides, it’s changing your heart. Snape never convinces me his heart changed, only that his loyalties did.” (Stephanie, 14:52)
• “We don’t know that his politics ever changed. We don’t know that he abandoned an ideology that led him to Voldemort in the first place…What we do know is that he acted because Lily was gone and because living with the consequences of his actions was unbearable.” (Womble, 63:39–64:00)
• “If Snape were a woman…we never granted her the complication we’re so eager to grant Snape. We simply said, she is wrong, she did a bad thing.” (Womble, 66:15)
• “Severus Snape doesn’t just show us the complexity of one character. He shows us the asymmetry of our own grace.” (Womble, 69:28)

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Timestamps by Segment

| Time | Topic/Discussion | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:02 | Prof. Womble introduces the episode and defines goals | | 03:39 | Addressing polarization in fandom and respectful engagement | | 13:39 | Assessing repentance and penance: is Snape’s change genuine? | | 25:14 | Snape’s abuse of students and classroom behavior | | 32:49 | Snape’s relationship to Lily: love or obsession? | | 43:54 | Trauma, radicalization, and the limits of explanation | | 55:33 | The “baby girlification” of Snape and Rickman’s role | | 62:00 | Womble’s final reflection: gender, grace, and literary legacy | | 70:41 | Wrap-up, thanks, and outro |

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Episode in a Nutshell

This episode is an unsparing, thoughtful, and at times biting analysis of Severus Snape anchored in both textual evidence and community perspectives. Prof. Womble acknowledges Snape’s crucial narrative role and sacrifice, but refuses to gloss over the abuses and selfishness that define his character. Ultimately, the podcast challenges listeners to reflect on their own biases and on the cultural forces that shape who we forgive, why, and at what cost.

Critical Magic Theory isn’t interested in easy absolution, but in hard truths—and in the magic of seeing beloved characters, and the world, with clear, critical eyes.

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Transcript

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[Professor Julian Womble]

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[Professor Julian Womble]

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[Professor Julian Womble]

Welcome to Critical Magic Theory, where we deconstruct the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Because loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julian Womble and today is the first of three prop response episodes for the one and only Severus Snape. Yes, you heard that right. The votes are in. And you all decided that you wanted an individual Prof. Response episode for every Snape episode that we have. And honestly, I get it because looking at the post episode chat for this episode, we have somewhere in the ballpark of 300. It's not 394, which is what people wanted in honor of page 394. But we did, we got there, we did get screenshots, but we then had other people who came in and shared their thoughts and opinions. And we love that. And so we have even more than that. So close to 400 comments in the post episode chat. And so it seems important that we take the time to really live in these comments and to really allow ourselves the space to breathe. And so this is the first one. And I'm gonna start off by saying I worked very, very hard in the main episode for the first couple of questions on Snape, to really kind of keep my opinions about him to myself, to be very ecumenical in. I'm not doing that this time. I have thoughts and I have opinions and I have feelings.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I feel like those are valid.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And I feel like I should share them with you. And so some of them are not.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Gonna be ones that you like, especially.

[Professor Julian Womble]

If you are a Snape defender.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And that I think is okay. And if you are a person who.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is not interested in hearing the opinions of other people who are not thinking about Snape in the same way that you are, that's also okay.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

You don't have to listen to this episode.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That's all right. I promise I won't be offended. I have a lot of very strong feelings about Snape.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I have learned a lot from everyone.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Both his defenders and his detractors. And I have taken a lot of that in and really, really, really, truly allowed myself to kind of think through a lot of what has been presented. I also went back before I recorded this episode, the Prince's Tale, so that I could really be informed. Because again, there are so many aspects that kind of get muddied and blurred with the movies. And I really wanted to approach this. Even if I'm being more critical than some might like, I'm still going to present the facts. And so to that end, I was like, I got to read this thing. And so I did.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And y'.

[Professor Julian Womble]

All, well, anyways, we're going to get into that. But before we get into that, and not to belabor the point, it's time for us to bop. And so if you thought that somehow the bop wasn't going to be Here, think again. We are still doing the bop bop. So we'll be doing that for the next couple weeks. So you need to be loosening up your neck.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And the thing I love about the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Bop Bop is that even if you're driving, you can still kind of do it because it just requires you to move your head from side to side that you can do while driving. But just stay focused. Okay? I'm not going to be in charge or made responsible for any bad neck decisions. If you have a bad neck, don't do it.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Hmm.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Do not do it, however, simultaneously, concurrently.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And if you have a good neck and you stretched, then the bop bop is coming to you in three, in two, in one. Let's bop.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We use hot butterfly SA.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

As always. I hope you danced.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I want to begin before we dive into the post episode chat.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I want to begin by inviting us.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To be a touch more graceful in our responses. In some of the conversations that we're having on the post episode chat, we've not quite had this particular level of engagement. On the post episode chat, we've also had some controversial figures, but we've not quite had a character like Severus who is very polarized and very polarizing. And so I want us to remember that part of the dynamic and part of the way that we are engaging with one another is through the lens of critical thinking and discourse. Now, some of us are not interested in discourse as it pertains to Severus Snape. We believe what we believe and that's that. And that is true for both his defenders and his detractors, and that's fine.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But if your mind can't be changed.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I don't know that it's prudent then for you to try to change someone else's mind insofar that if at the end of the day you said what you said 10 tones down, period, that's okay. But make that clear because I think.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That some people want to engage in.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Kind of a debate in hopes that one's perspective can be viewed more clearly. Some people are uninterested in that particular dynamic and that is cool.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But I think that what can end.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Up happening is that people can get flippant, people can get rude, people can get disrespectful, and we saw some of that in this last post episode chat. And I don't want to make a habit of that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And so I just want to remind.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Us that we are all in this for the sake of being in community.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

With one another and critically analyzing and.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Thinking about a text that we all love. Because as I always say, right, loving something doesn't mean you can't be critical of it. And I think that that also applies to Snape. And I think that there is a way that many of us have found a space to defend Snape and that place. Place is rock solid and immovable and.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

No judgment, no condemnation. If that's your story, lead with that. If you want to engage in conversation so that people know the depths to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Which they should go in engaging you in conversation, because otherwise it can take a turn simultaneously, concurrently.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And if the relationship that you have.

[Professor Julian Womble]

With this character is one that is born out of your own personal narrative, to the extent then that you are like it is difficult for you to separate the truth of your own experience and that of the character, then we also need to think about how we engage with others because then it feels personal.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And then if it feels personal, then.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Your response may also go to a personal place.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I don't want to invite that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Kind of dynamic because I think it undermines what we are ultimately about here in this community.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And so this isn't to say that you shouldn't engage, but it's just to say that I want us to be.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Mindful of the relationships that we have with some of these characters and how.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That might inform how we engage with others so that the discourse can always.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Be constructive and community uplifting and community building and not leaving people feeling on either side of whatever discussion you're having, feeling dejected, feeling disrespected, feeling wronged in any way. And so I just want to leave that, leave that with us because I think that there is a way. And it's not gonna just be for Severus, it's gonna be for Dumbledore, it's definitely gonna be for Hermione. I don't know if any of you have seen what's been happening on my social media post about my most recent social media post about Hermione, but a lot of that dynamic is happening there as well. So it's not just a post episode chat, it's happening all over the place. It's not just Snape, it's for multiple characters. But I want us, as we move into the post episode chat, for this episode, to just be mindful of that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Dynamic and to be hon honest with.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Ourselves about how vulnerable we're willing to.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Be and how much of that you want people to actually engage with. Because if you're willing to be vulnerable, that's beautiful, but also protect yourself, like don't put yourself in a position where.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You feel like you have to be on the defensive. If that's not a place that you want to be, that's okay.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That's totally, totally, totally fine.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Just use some discretion for yourself, for others. And again, that is both for defenders and detractors alike. Gosh, I feel like such an adult just saying that, you know, But I've.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Said it, and now we can dive into this episode. So let's get into it.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

The first theme that came up for us in the post episode chat was one that engages with this question of repentance and penance. The question of whether Snape truly repentant looms large in the post episode chat conversation because some people see his loyalty to Dumbledore as lifelong penance, while others argue he never demonstrated remorse, only regret that Lily was gone. Repentance requires more than allegiance. It requires transformation. And many aren't convinced Snape made that leap.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Mia wrote, he only hears part of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The prophecy, not the whole and duly repents of it. And the ultimate trajectory of his life is in constantly, consistently and faithfully fighting Voldemort and Supremacy to the end of his days. Eric wrote, wrongdoing also requires penance, which we never see him make. Pain as consequences, sure, but I never see true penance. Liana wrote, the fact that he never apologizes to Harry, not even in his dying breath, says a lot.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He wants Harry to know the truth.

[Professor Julian Womble]

About him, not to express regret for all he put him through.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And Stephanie wrote, repentance isn't just switching.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Sides, it's changing your heart. Snape never convinces me that his heart changed, only that his loyalties did.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

So when I think about the idea.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Of whether or not Snape actually changed.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I think of a couple things that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

People brought to bear. The first is the idea that he changed sides and became a spy for Dumbledore against Voldemort.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And while I think that this is.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A very important thing that he does that we cannot overlook because it is a massive sacrifice when we think about what it means to be a double agent to a Voldemort who is insane and murderous and doesn't trust anyone that much, is constantly probing the minds of people in order to see where their loyalties lie. What that means for Snape is that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He constantly has to be vigilant about.

[Professor Julian Womble]

How he approaches almost everything that he.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Does and that means something. Then when you consider what he does.

[Professor Julian Womble]

When he goes and changes sides or at least shifts his loyalties over to Dumbledore.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I think the other question that I have for us is repentance. For what? What is it that we're looking for here?

[Professor Julian Womble]

And I hope that we can have this conversation in the post episode chat.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

You know, when we talk about what.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He is fighting for, that is not clear to me. I don't know that he's fighting against Voldemort or Pure Blood supremacy, I think.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And it's also not clear what he's.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Fighting for or who he's fighting for. Again, I think that the point of, you know, we understand who he's loyal to and the shifts therein that Stephanie brings to bear, I think that's really important and I think that is something that we do know.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

It is never clear to me what.

[Professor Julian Womble]

His actual goal is in doing so.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Initially it was under the auspices that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Lily would be safe.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And then it seems to me after.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Having just reread this chapter, that ultimately his goal was to preserve some aspect, some living aspect of Lilly on the mortal plane as a means by which.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

To, I guess, keep her memory alive in some way, shape and or form. Because he's upset with Dumbledore when he.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Finds out that Harry has to die.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And he is like, I thought all of this was to keep her son alive.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Right.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And so there, it seems to me that his motivation here is really to kind of maintain some level of connection.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To Lily by way of keeping Harry here on the mortal plane, and that his death is undermining that particular goal.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

So that everything that he ultimately does is in order to facilitate that. But I don't think that there's any ideological thing going on here for him.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I don't think that there's anything about.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Him feeling bad about the things that he did other than giving information to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Voldemort that ultimately led to Lily's death. And so there is remorse for that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Does that shift his belief structures about anything?

[Professor Julian Womble]

I would say no. I still think that he has a problematic ideology.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I also. I know that some people say that, you know, when Phineas Nigellus calls Hermione.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A Mudblood and Snape says, don't call her that, that this is indicative of some sort of change of heart. I don't think so.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I think that there is a way.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In which that word is the catalyst for him losing his friend, losing a person he cared for immensely, someone that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He had, had what I would consider me an unhealthy kind of obsession with from a very, very young age. And we can call it whatever we.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Want to call it. That's inconsequential to me. But at the end of the day.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He lost her because he let slip.

[Professor Julian Womble]

His true nature when he called her a mud blood.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And that word is now a trigger for him because it's a constant reminder.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That his ideology cost him that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I say his ideology because in.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That passage in that discussion, Lilly highlights.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

The fact that he calls everyone of her birth Mudblood.

[Professor Julian Womble]

So he believed this fundamentally.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I don't think that him correcting.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Phinehas Nigellus is him changing that ideology. It's just him recognizing that that word cost him and that he has to deal with the consequences of his usage of that word. And so it's a constant reminder of his shame.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But that doesn't lead to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I don't think that that leads him to believe anything. There's no reason for us to believe. There's nothing in the text other than that one moment where we get a sense of any sort of condemnation of.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Pure blood supremacist ideology. Because him trying to bring down Voldemort again is the byproduct of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Some could argue the fact that he felt betrayed by Voldemort because Voldemort didn't spare Lily the way that he asked him to.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Some, I don't think that his desire to bring down Voldemort has anything to do with his rejection of supremacy. I think it has everything to do.

[Professor Julian Womble]

With the fact that this is his way of honoring Lily.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I don't want to take anything.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Away from that particular reality. But I also don't want to make it more than what it is, because.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Ultimately, we don't know what he would be repenting for. We don't know what he would be asking for forgiveness. Is it what happened to Lily?

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is it the fact that he, you know, at some point was a Death Eater and engaged in supremacist behavior? Is it the fact that he called her a mudblood? Is it the fact that he called other people Mudbloods?

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Like, what is he apologizing for? And what's more is what is he fighting for? What is this all about? And I think that there is a way that we can. We tried to fill in the gaps with what we've been given, but at the end of the day, he has a very strong loyalty to Dumbledore, who is fighting against Voldemort.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But I don't know that the transitive property is applicable here where, because he's loyal to Dumbledore and because Dumbledore is fighting against Voldemort, that Snape is fighting against Voldemort. Snape's actions help bring down Voldemort. Yes. But as you all consistently and constantly remind me, intention matters here.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I don't think that he is fighting to bring down Voldemort because he.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Believes that Voldemort represents something bad, that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

There is some sort of moral imperative that he's developed over time. I think at the end of the day, his goal is to keep Lily's.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Son alive because that means that there's.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

A piece of her still alive. And some of you may say, well, who cares why he did it? And sure, but I think that there's a way that we need to acknowledge the truth of why he's doing what.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He'S doing and not attach some sort.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Of, like, overarching moral transformation that he's undergone, because I don't think he's undergone one And I don't think he's interested in doing that. I think that he did this because he believed that in keeping Harry safe, he would be able to keep Lily's presence alive. And Dumbledore leverages that desire because he tells Snape at the very beginning, he has her eyes. And he does this whole thing of, like, you remember the shape and the color and.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Which is messy, but this is not a Dumbledore episode.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I think that there is a way that that is ultimately what Snape is about.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In the Prince's Tale chapter, he says.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Everything was supposed to be to keep.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Lily Potter's son safe.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And that tells us a story like that was his goal.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That is what he wanted.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He wanted to keep Harry safe for her, for Lily, and not for any other reason.

[Professor Julian Womble]

This has nothing to do with any of the other things that are going on in the war. It's all about Lily. At the end of the day, all roads lead to Lily.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And that is part of the reason why he is so upset with Dumbledore when Dumbledore tells him Harry has to die because he's like, but the only reason I did all of this was to keep this kid safe for her. And that tells us the tale, as.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Far as I'm concerned about what he's fighting for, what this means for his own ideological belief structures, what this means for his relationship with all of the other players in this war. He's not thinking about any of that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

His goal here is to honor the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Memory and the life of a woman that he had feelings for foreign.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

One thing that I think many of us agreed on but still had some differing opinions about the kind of nuances of was Snape's abuse of students. Because even Snape's defenders had a time trying to justify his behavior in the classroom. Some listeners highlighted how he targeted Neville and humiliated Harry and created an environment of fear rather than learn. At the end of the day, A man in his 30s was using children as his outlet for pain.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I think we have to be.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Careful about how we try to excuse that behavior. Eleanor wrote, neville got bullied instead of dealing with it. This is Snape instead of him dealing with it, like the whole adult he allegedly is. He punched down on middle school kids repeatedly.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Earl earliest T wrote, snape would likely.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Drag Neville back by magic and force.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

At least with medicine.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For me, it's my own pet for it's for my own pet's good. But Snape would have just done it to terrorize Neville. They're discussing the using the potion on Trevor.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Nikki wrote, there is nothing about Snape's.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Arc that justifies how he treats and teaches children. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Sam Marie wrote, one of the most egregious examples is when he threatened Neville with forcing him to kill Trevor. That's abuse, like, in a really dark way. I'm not going to belabor this point too long because I spent a good chunk of time talking about this in the main episode when we discussed the survey responses. The thing about this is I don't know how we walk away from any of his interactions with students and make an excuse for his behavior. I think we could talk a lot about any number of things and the way that he.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Him being bullied as a child, him.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Growing up in an unsafe and unhappy house, him.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

There are a lot of things in.

[Professor Julian Womble]

His past and they are explanations, but they are not excuses for the way.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That he treats students. I could even grant some of the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Justifications and explanations provided for why he treats Harry a certain way. Not Neville, though.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I'm. And.

[Professor Julian Womble]

If people want to come with.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Well, he's upset because Neville was the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

One who it could have been and it wasn't. That makes it even worse.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That makes it even worse because at the end of the day, what is true is that Severus Snape is the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

One who delivered that prophecy.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And it is because of that delivery that he would have had to decide between Neville and Harry in the first place. And so maybe some of the guilt that he is experiencing is the reality that in giving Voldemort that prophecy, he also then delivered Lily to Voldemort. And so him blaming Neville for this.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is even more depraved as far as.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I'm concerned, because Neville actively had no.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Part to play in this. Severus Snape, on the other hand, had a big one.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I don't know how we then justify the way that he treats Hermione. Like there are ways he literally looked.

[Professor Julian Womble]

At her and said, I see no difference, as her teeth were becoming so long.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

It was also brought to my attention.

[Professor Julian Womble]

During the Chronic Overthinkers virtual meetup that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

We had a couple days ago that he also slut shamed her in front of the class by reading Rita Skeeter's article in front of everyone. And because he is a professor and she is a student, she was powerless. And you could say, well, that was really more about Harry than it was about Hermione.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It doesn't matter because she was collateral damage in a situation that should have never happened in anybody's classroom.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And like, I just, he is terrible to his students. And I think many of us walked away with the reality that he just should not be teaching and that he.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is at Hogwarts at the behest of Dumbledore. And this is not a Dumbledore episode.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

So if you have thoughts about that, write them down.

[Professor Julian Womble]

There is someone who shall remain nameless who is currently working on a Dumbledore essay that is growing in number as the days go on. And so if you would like to join this person, you are more than welcome to build that essay. I invite it. I'm excited for it. We've given you weeks and weeks and weeks to prepare.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But at the end of the day, what Severus Snape does in his classroom to students is deplorable. It is unforgivable because again, there is a way in which he is completely ruining the mental health and the self esteem of literal, literal with a D, literal with a T, children. And there is no way that I could excuse any of what he does. There's no way that I could just chalk it up to him being sarcastic or what. I just like, that doesn't work for me. And what he does with Trevor is really like an outward manifestation of what's happening in the minds of most of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

These students more often than not. And that tells the story as far as I'm concerned. And the man should not be in anybody's classroom. I don't know, give him another position someplace else, something else, anything else.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Because I'm like. And then I think often about when he was Defense against the Dark Arts teacher and yeah, he's teaching them important skills. But it's really important when you are.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Doing the work of trying to defend yourself against the Dark Arts that you be confident in what you're doing.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Right? Like we see that so much of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

What Harry does in the DA is.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Just making students feel comfortable and confident in their ability to do tricky magic. And that matters because when you are in the midst of people or dark.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Magic.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

You need to believe in yourself. Snape is not someone who engenders that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Particular kind of self belief because he doesn't have it himself. I think he believes in his magical ability.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But you can't teach people how to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Have a higher level of self esteem when you yourself don't have it. He shouldn't be in a classroom. And that's all I have to say about that. Now this next theme is one that many of us have been waiting for, that many of us have been biding our time for.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

This is probably going to take up.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A good chunk of our post episode chat for this episode. And so this is discussing Snape's feelings for Lily and the selfishness that some of us associate with those feelings. I am remiss and loathe to use the word love here and that's my own personal thing. If you understand it as love, ok. But for me I'm, it's, it's, it doesn't feel that way to me personally. Snape defenders often frame his life missions as an act of love for Lily.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But many of you all question whether.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It is love or obsession. His protection of Harry is less about Harry's well being and more about honoring Lily's memory. And the line between selfish devotion and genuine morality remains blurry. So we talked a little bit about this before, but someone wrote what drives Severus throughout the series is a supposed love for Lily. Severus's thing after the first Wizarding War is that he would do anything for Lily now that he lost her.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Jas wrote being the sort of man Lily would have wanted him to be, the sort of man who bullies children.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Who only switches sides for selfish reasons. I'm struggling with this concept.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Amber J Wrote, if Voldemort had gone.

[Professor Julian Womble]

After Neville instead of Snape wouldn't have cared. That tells me his whole redemption arc is self serving. And Rachel P. Wrote, yes, he protects Harry, but not because he values Harry, because he values Lily.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

It's about her memory, not about doing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Right by the boy himself.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

So here's the thing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

When I think about Snape's relationship with Lily and it's fresh. That's why I read the Prince's Tale chapter, because I really wanted to remember all of the details.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

It is very clear from a very.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Very early age that he was starved for friendship and connection and he wanted someone that he could, you know, spend.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Time with who was his age. And so what we learn Very early.

[Professor Julian Womble]

On in that chapter is that he spends a considerable amount of time watching Lily.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And there are some things about that that kind of rub me the wrong way.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But he's a child when we meet him. And so there's a fervor that he has that I'm not going to attribute to anything untoward because he's a child.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

As time goes on, it's very clear, and it's written in a way that is made for us to believe that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

This is not a platonic situation, that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He actively has very meaningful amounts of love and romantic affection for Lily. And for a very long time, that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is, she kind of ignores it, honestly. Like, she kind of recognizes it, but doesn't pay any attention to it.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And it's very clear, very early on that he is very possessive of her. He says at one point, I won't let you. And he has to course correct very.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Quickly because it's very clear to him that Lily's like, I do what I want. I'm a fully fledged human being.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And then he's like, you know, James Potter fancies you. And she's like, I don't. He sucks and he starts to feel better. And so from that moment, what we are able to see is that Severus is seeing the kind of feelings that James has for Lily, assumes that this.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is reciprocal and is jealous.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And then upon finding out that it's.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Not reciprocal, is like, cool, we're great.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

So there's also. But then also this, like, I won't let you.

[Professor Julian Womble]

There is a sense of possessiveness that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Exists here, and I'm sure that people.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Will have qualms about that, and that's fine. But here's the thing that I cannot forgive at all. And the reason. And there's been language used, and I won't even say the word that's been used to describe Snape, because, honestly, it doesn't serve me. And I think we get distracted by its invocation because we're thinking about it in the contemporary moment when these books are written in a time where that word didn't exist as we know it.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And so I'm just going to focus.

[Professor Julian Womble]

On what we do get in the text.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

So in the Prince's Tale, when Snape is.

[Professor Julian Womble]

When he confronts Dumbledore, and Dumbledore says.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

If she means so much to you, surely Lord Voldemort will spare her. Could you not ask for mercy for.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The mother in exchange for the son?

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And Snape says, I have.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I have asked him. You disgust me, said Dumbledore.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And Harry had never heard such contempt in his voice. Snape seemed to shrink a little. You do not care then about the deaths of her husband and her child? They can die as long as you.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Have what you want. Snape said nothing, but merely looked at Dumbledore. Hide them all then he croaked. Keep her them safe, please.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

It's that for me, that singular moment for me. A moment where it is very clear that Snape does not care about Harry or James. Which means that he doesn't care about Lily because Lily has chosen James. After she did not want to be.

[Professor Julian Womble]

With him, she ended up with him. Which means that there's something happened we don't know.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

They had a child together.

[Professor Julian Womble]

She married this man.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

She was happy. We know she was happy because we saw in the letter while they were in hiding that she was still had some sort of joy happiness in her life. And it had to have come from these two men in the house that she was being two men, her husband.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And her child, right?

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That she was locked in a house with in hiding. That happiness meant nothing to this man. And even when confronted with the reality that what he was saying, what he was petitioning, what he had requested from Voldemort was selfish and deplorable, he had nothing to say, nothing to say. He didn't even try to walk it back. He said okay then just keep them all safe then for her. When I think about what love is, I think that there's a way that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I want someone to want me to be happy. I want someone to want who cares.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Enough about me that even if the decision that I make is a decision that they don't agree with or that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

They don't understand or that is something.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That they wish wasn't the case that they would still find some way to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Say especially, especially when that decision is something that is not harming me and that is making me happy.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That there's a way that they could find something in themselves to say if you like it, I love it. Or I may not like it, but I accept it and sever. Snape does neither one of those things. And I'm hard pressed to understand how we can justify this particular moment as anything other than a deep seated, selfish, obsessive behavior. Because we've already seen moments in the past where he seemingly was trying to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Control her behavior and what she was going to do.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

We then see him in this moment say I don't care if she's happy, I'm unhappy with what makes her happy. So if the opportunity presents itself for that thing to be removed. And by that thing, I mean her husband and her child. I'm okay with that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Y'.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

All. That to me is not love. That is something else completely.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And that is in the text, like.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I'm not filling in any gaps, I'm.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Not cleaning it up.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Dumbledore says, you disgust me. And frankly, it disgusts me too. And so when I think about the relationship that he has with Lily, I believe it started off from a very genuine, juvenile place of simply wanting to feel a connection with someone. But it quickly morphed into something else. And perhaps that's learned behavior from his.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Relationship, the relationship he saw with his mother and his father.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Perhaps it's something else. Maybe he learned it from some of the other Death Eater people who have.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Very bad and antiquated understandings of what.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

It means to be in relationship with others. I don't care where it came from. At a very critical juncture, he made the decision to request to Voldemort that Lily's life be spared, but that James and Harry die. As if to say, she'll get over them and I'll be there to comfort her. Because why else would you want that? What else would your expectation be?

[Professor Julian Womble]

Yeah, I'm not going to give love to this one.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I. I can't.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The next theme that came up in the post episode chat that many people discussed was one surrounding Snape's trauma and radicalization. Snape's tragic childhood is undeniable and many saw it as the foundation for his bitterness and eventual radicalization.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But as several listeners pointed out, trauma explains behavior, but it doesn't absolve it. Snape's adult choices still reveal who he decided to be regardless of where he started. Carmen wrote, children from troubled homes like.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Severus, or children with difficult relationships with their parents like Barty Crouch Jr.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Probably were more easily radicalized. There is clearly a Slytherin House to Death Eater pipeline.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Kate wrote, snape has every right to be traumatized over what happened to him as a child.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He does not have any right to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Take that trauma and bitterness out on.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

The people around him. Melissa wrote, maybe up to a certain.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Age you could excuse those behaviors, but.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Not a man who is in his.

[Professor Julian Womble]

30S and still bullying teenagers. Trauma explains, but it doesn't excuse.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And Jordan wrote, I think his background shows why he'd be susceptible to Voldemort's ideology, but the choices he makes once.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He'S grown tell us who he really is.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I think that this is a.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Really important aspect of this is that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

At a certain point we have to. And, you know, this is a question.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That I ask all the time about many of our characters. At what point do we hold them accountable? And so I'm actually pleased to find out when. And I guess it's when we're in our 30s.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And that's, to me, a touch too late.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But sure, you know, I guess better late than never.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Although better never late.

[Professor Julian Womble]

My teacher in English class used to say that all the time and used to drive me absolutely insane. But I digress.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I think that when we think about his radicalization and even when we think about it in terms of his relationship with Lilly, as many pointed out, and I think, as is made very clear in the Prince's Tale chapter, he is.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely boy. When we meet him, when he kind of ducks out from the tree to reveal to Lily that she's a witch.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He is so greedy and thirsty for.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Connection with people in the magical world.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Who need him, right? Lily needs him. She needs information that he can provide.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Because he understands the magical world better than her.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He's looking for a way that he can be in relationship with people. And when I say in relationship, I.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Mean like as a friend, as someone who is connected to another person.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I think that that is a very meaningful thing for Severus. And so then we can also see then how when he gets into Slytherin House, that need continues and he then simultaneously loses in some ways, loses Lily as the kind of immediate friend and they maintain their friendship, right? They're best friends, but there's something about, you know, not being able to necessarily be around her and hang out with.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Her all the time.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

We know how the Hogwarts Houses are. And that gap, that feeling of loneliness when coupled with anger, which we know he has, and resentment, which we know he has, and coupled with his bullying, which we know he experiences and in many, and in some cases a fairly extreme kind of bullying, and that he's getting this both at Hogwarts and at school.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I mean, at Hogwarts and at school.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

At Hogwarts and at home, right? So there's really no safe place for him. And we know, right, in. In the world that we live in now that when we learn about young men in particular, right, when they are radicalized, right, many of them are victims of bullying. Many of them are in spaces and.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Places where they feel very isolated and alone.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And again, and it doesn't, you know, radicalization is one of those interesting things. It's not about inherently the like ideology at the beginning, it's about community. It's about saying, hey, like you, you need friends. Come hang out with us. Oh, you're feeling, you know, you feeling some kind of way. Let's talk about that. And then it slowly but surely begins to seep in.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I will never forget there was a time, this would have been years ago, where the Ku Klux Klan, which is a white supremacist organization for those of us who are not in the United States, they were sending out pamphlets and dropping them in people's mailboxes. And good family friends of mine received one of these pamphlets and I was curious because I'm like, how does the KKK recruit?

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And it literally was just like, are you afraid of the changes that are happening right now?

[Professor Julian Womble]

Very vague, very ambiguous.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Come meet with us so we can talk about it. And you can see how people who are afraid, who are angry, who are resentful, who are in need of community and connection, how they might fall prey to that kind of appeal.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It's the same thing for anyone who, like myself, loves a good cult documentary.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And you hear people who have been in cult or cult adjacent situations, like, there is a need for something when we learn about people who enter into.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Certain religious spaces that are I would kind of put under the cult adjacent space for some.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Right. Like there is a longing and a desire for something that these spaces offer. So when we think about Snape's radicalization, I totally get it. Yeah. Of course, those two things go hand in hand. And his trauma allows for him to be exploited.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But there comes a moment, there comes.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

A moment when you have to say, okay, like you've made this choice that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Does not absolve you of the crimes that you've committed.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I think when he calls Lilia Mudblood out of anger.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And it's a knee jerk reaction, a reflexive word that he just throws out towards her and.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He pays the price for it. He loses his friend, he loses his.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Connection to her, the one thing that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

He wanted the most. And in that moment, he could have.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Said, I don't want this anymore. I gotta get out of this. And this is what I'm saying, right? Like when we talk about the notion of redemption and absolution, he could have.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Said in that moment when he did that, obviously, this is bad for me if the one person that I care about the most has now left me because of the ideology that I'm espousing, I need to go, I can't be with these people anymore. That could have been an Inflection point.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For him, but it wasn't one.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Instead he doubled down, 10 toes down. And it also came up in the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Post episode chat, you know, the things.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That he must have done for Voldemort.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In order to get to the position that he was in.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I say all of that to say that when we think about his radicalization, his trauma clearly plays a very, very, very large role in how he.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Was radicalized in the first place.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But there were moments, there were opportunities.

[Professor Julian Womble]

There was space for him to get.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Out, for him to see the error of his ways. And we know that he at least recognized the ills of it. Because when Phineas Nigelus says the word, he's like, don't say that word anymore. Right. Which to me is not a rejection of the ideology, it's hardly a rejection of the word and what it stands for. But what it does show us is that he recognizes that that word was.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A moment that cost him something.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And instead of allowing that, that moment to guide his choices, he said, no, I'm going to keep going. And it wasn't until an even larger moment where now Lily is put into immense danger, she's in the crosshairs of a murderous maniac, that he's like, oh, interesting.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Okay, now this is the moment.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And I think that when we think about his choices that he makes, I think for me, obviously as a child who was probably preyed upon by many.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Of the individuals who would ultimately become Death Eaters, absolutely, he had daddy issues like Barty Crouch Jr. Like, you know, Bellatrix, you know, like many of these, like Voldiva himself, like Voldadi himself, you know.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Sure, yes. And so I can understand how he entered into the place. But what's interesting about Snape is that there were opportunities because all the while he is allowing Lily to be the exception to his rule. Which means that he understands the humanity of Muggle Borans. It means he understands, you know, the talent that they possess. He understands all of that. And he still does. Deciding to do this, and that's to say nothing about what he does after her death and the way that he treats people after she's gone. If we just focus on the radicalization moment when he is at Hogwarts, she calls him out and says, you want to become Death Eaters? And he doesn't even deny it. And he says this to a person who would be a victim of their crimes if not for him having feelings for her.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That's a choice.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And so we can. There's a lot to be said about.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Other moments of, you know, radicalization and the role that his trauma plays.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But I think at the end of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The day, I think Melissa's words ring true.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Trauma explains, but it doesn't excuse. And I think particularly for Snape, there.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Are so many moments where we actually.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Do get to see the opportunity for him to turn away from this, and he doesn't.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The last theme that we're going to discuss before my reflection is the baby girlification of Severus Snape and the Alan Rickman effect. Some of Snape's cultural redemption comes not from the books, but from the films.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And in particular, Alan Rickman's unforgettable performance. Some of us, I think it was.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Sarah coined the term, or at least gave us the term baby girlification to.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Describe the way the fandom softened towards.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Snape and softened him into a romantic, tragic antihero.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And it raises the question, and this is something that people bring to bear.

[Professor Julian Womble]

All the time, do we forgive Snape.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Or do we forgive Rickman's Snape?

[Professor Julian Womble]

Carmen wrote, was it someone named Sarah that gave us the term baby girlification? Because it applies to Snape?

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And Jazz wrote, I think a lot of his baby girlification can be attributed.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To Alan Rickman moviesnape. They definitely watered down his nastiness in those films.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

MacKenzie wrote, oh my gosh.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Good point. I love Alan Rickman and it probably really helped softened me towards Snape. I never considered that. And Sarah H. That was me.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Hello.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Okay. We love attribution and gratitude giving to the people who provide us with things like baby girlification and they go on to write. Lol. Alan did his thing for Snape. I think Alan the goat and I was talking about this during the Chronic Overthinkers.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And one of the things that I'm.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Thinking for the next iteration of the podcast is for us to go through and look at these characters, I think.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Grouped differently, but look at them as.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We see them in the books and how we see them in the movies.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Because I think that there is a way, that there is an intentionality on the part of the creators and the writers and the producers of the movies.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That they take some of these characters.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And they clean them up. And when we think about certain moments.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Particularly, and I talked about this during the virtual meetup with the Chronic Overthinkers, the moment I think about a lot is when Snape goes into Godric Hollow after Voldemort has come, after he's been vanquished and he's cradling the body of Lily and crying and he is devastated, heartbroken, just distraught.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And that's not in the books. And there are so many more moments that I think are so endearing. Like the moments that are really funny.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Where he, like where Ron and Harry are supposed to be studying and he's like pulling up his sleeves and like pushing their heads down in books or when he like slaps Ron in the back of the head with a thing. Like these really funny moments. But they don't have in the movies, the instances about Trevor. They don't have the instances where he looks at Hermione and says, I don't see the difference.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

They don't have the moment where he.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Reads that article and completely shames her.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

In front of the entire class. They don't have the moments where he just treats Neville so horrifically. None of that is in the movies.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And Alan Rickman is, you know, a.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Romantic lead at heart. And while an incredible actor, he has a way of really finding humanity. And there is a way that, coupled with that kind of performance giving, which was brilliant and amazing and iconic coupled with the erasure and the removal of the more insidious aspects of Snape's character that we can understand how people arrive at Snape being this just forlorn, unrequited love recipient who is just trying to do the best he can with what he's got.

[Professor Julian Womble]

They don't give us any sense of.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

His home life, so there's no reason.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For us to understand that.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But they also don't give us the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Depths of his depravity.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And so I think when we consider.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The baby girlification of Severus Snape and.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

The role that the movies have played in this, I think that it is safe to say, and there are very.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Few characters for whom I think this is true to the degree that it's true for Snape that like the movie.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Character is a drastically different character than the book Snape. And that's due in part to Alan Rickman's performance, but it is also due in very large part to what he was given for that performance. They removed everything, everything and left us with this sense of love, the always of it. All, right? And I think in that way there are elements that exist, but we don't.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Get the bitterness of Alan Rickman Snape.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

We get the jealousy, we get the anger. The other moment that is in the movies, that is not in the books, is in Prisoner of Azkaban when he is going to protect the kids from Lupin. In the books, Snape is knocked out. We do see him come to after the dementors.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Have come and attacked Harry and Sirius.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But that's really for the purposes of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Getting them back up to the castle so that he can make sure that Sirius gets arrested. And given the. In the. Given the Dementor's kiss.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And so there are so many things.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That we just miss for his character and I think it's intentional and I.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Don'T want to talk about it too.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Deeply because I do think that this will be the next iteration of the podcast when we are done with all of our character analyses as we know it in this domain. If you thought you were getting rid of me. Silly gooses. Never. Silly geese. Gooses is better. Never. We will go on forever or for at least as long as you will have me. Anyways, anyways, that was not a petition for you to tell me how much you love me. But if you want to, I mean, I'm not gonna stop you. But that's not what's happening right now.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

What's happening right now is that we're.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Discussing the baby girlification of Severus Snape. And I think that there was an intentional thing that happened for the movies to make him palatable to people. And in doing so, I think it invites people to be much more forgiving than is warranted from the books. It is now time for my reflection. Based on our conversation in the post episode chat, there's something that I want to sit with for a little while because I think it really gets at the heart, for me at least, of why Severus Snape is so polarizing. It's undeniable that so much would not have been accomplished without Snape. His sacrifices matter, his choices, his double life, the risk he took, all of.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

It was so crucial. The reality is, is that without him, Voldemort doesn't fall. Without him, Harry doesn't make it to the end.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And that's like so real.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That's an integral part of the story.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That we cannot and I absolutely will not take away from him. But here's the other reality. Severus Snape is outrageously selfish.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

His heroism didn't come from a place of goodness or growth.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We don't know that his politics ever changed. We don't know that he abandoned an.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Ideology that led him to Voldemort in the first place. We don't know that he cared about justice, or about stopping the Death Eater's violence, or about the world outside of his own pain. What we do know is that he acted because Lilly was gone and because living with the consequences of his actions was unbearable.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And that's not the same as a change of heart. That's not the same as repentance. That's not the same as becoming a better person.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

That's just a man forced to live.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Inside the wreckage he created. J.K. rowling invites us to forgive him. She hands us the Doe Patronus.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

She ties everything back to Lilly.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Her death, her memory, his obsession.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And because of that, many of us soften.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Many of us revise.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

We explain, we excuse. We imagine him as a more complicated.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Person than he is just a cruel one.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But I want to pause and ask, what if Snape were a woman? Because we have seen in this world women who are cruel to children. Dolores Umbridge is hated. She's in the story for one year and the disgust for her is universal. She is the most hated character in the entire series. And I get it.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I understand why we talked about it.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

In her episode, she inflicts physical torture on students. In addition to the mental harassment, the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Poisoning of some of the students, giving them veritum to kind of try to get things out of them.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

But if we zoom out, Snape spends seven years emotionally tormenting children. He humiliates Neville, he belittles Harry, he terrorizes Hermione. His abuse isn't exactly physical, but it's prolonged, institutional, informative. And he leverages his power. Power as a professor and as a caregiver and as someone into whom's charge these children have been placed as a means by which and a vehicle to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Treat these children this way.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

And somehow we forgive him more than we forgive her. And then I think about Merope Gaunt.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Another character with an abusive childhood.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Another character whose trauma shaped her into someone who made desperate predatory choices. Someone who was so tormented by her family that she lost her ability to do magic. Then she got it back. She used a love potion. And we rightfully condemned her instantly. We didn't fill in the blanks for her pain. We never granted her the complication we're so eager to grant Snape. We simply said, she is wrong, she did a bad thing. And we evaluated her accordingly. And one of the biggest defenses of Snape, outside of without Snape, Voldemort doesn't fall, is Snape kept Harry alive. And he didn't necessarily care for him. Well, he treated him terribly, but he kept him alive. And you know who else kept Harry alive? You know who else didn't care for him the way that we would have wanted them to? But they did it anyway. Petunia and Vernon. Dursley. And yet somehow we hold so much vitriol for them. Remember, Petunia is the one who told Vernon Harry wasn't leaving when Dumbledore reminded her of his message. Petunia is the one who found Harry on her doorstep and said, yes, sure, she did it resentfully, angrily, not in a way that any of us would want it, but she did exactly what Dumbledore asked. And still we rightfully critique her and we say what she did is wrong. And I know we haven't gotten to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Her episode yet, but I already know.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I know what's gonna happen when we get there, because we've been at this for a while now and these characters come up. And so I ask, what's the difference? Why do we grant Snape layers but not Merope? Why do we imagine interiority for Snape but not Petunia? Why do we forgive the abusive man who kept Harry alive but not the women who did the same? And the answer to me is Gendered patriarchy trains us to forgive men. It tells us to trace their bad behaviors back to pain, back to heartbreak, back to tragedy. It tells us to. To fill in their stories with complication. But with women, we demand perfection. If they fail, if they falter, if they harm, we offer so little to no grace. We don't imagine their inner lives.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We don't fill in their gaps.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

We let the absence of detail stand as an indictment. And that's exactly what's happening here. In our own post episode chat, people literally filled in gaps for Snape. Inventing excuses, blaming others, twisting details so that his cruelty could be contextualized. But nobody does that work for Umbridge or Petunia or Merope. So when I look at Snape, I don't just see one man caught in this gray space.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I see what he represents.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

I see how willing we are to excuse men if they give us a single act, a shred of an outcome that feels even remotely redemptive. I see how easily we take that one sacrifice and let it outweigh a lifetime of cruelty. And I see how unevenly we distribute absolution. Severus Snape doesn't just show us the complexity of one character. He shows us the asymmetry of our own grace. He proves that in this story and in our own world, men are forgiven.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For things that women never are. This has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory. I'm Professor Julian Womble and if you liked today's episode, first of all, thank you. Please feel free to, like, rate, subscribe and do all the things that one.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Does where pods are cast y' all. Thank you so much for your participation.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In the post episode chat. I can't wait to see what we get up to in this one.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Don't forget if you want to join.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Us on Patreon for that post episode chat, please feel free to do [e-mail] criticalmagictheory there you can join for free and be a part of the post episode chat. You can also join as an outstanding.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Owl, a deep diver or a chronic overthinker. Those are our paid subscriptions that come.

[Professor Julian Womble]

With less lots of perks.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

If you are a chronic overthinker and or a deep diver you can join our Discord.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It is a lively place with many many places and conversations happening. Please feel free to join us there.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Also please feel free to join me.

[Professor Julian Womble]

On social media, Prof. JW on TikTok and ProfW on Instagram. Check out our website criticalmagictheory.com y'.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

All.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I can't wait to see what we get up to in the post episode chat.

[Co-host/Guest Analyst]

Until then, be critical and stay magical my friends. Byee.