Shedding Old Skins: Rethinking Slytherin House

Summary

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Critical Magic Theory: Shedding Old Skins – Rethinking Slytherin House

Host: Professor Julian Womble
Date: August 20, 2025
Podcast: Critical Magic Theory: An Analytical Harry Potter Podcast
Episode Theme:
Professor Julian Womble “sheds old skins” by inviting listeners to critically re-evaluate common assumptions about Slytherin House in the Harry Potter universe. With wit, vulnerability, and sharp analysis, the episode interrogates Slytherin’s misunderstood reputation by exploring its core attributes, the impact of ambition, and the reasons behind both in-universe and real-world perceptions—pushing listeners to ask: what might Slytherin be if ambition wasn’t treated as corruption?

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Challenge the villainization of Slytherin and critically analyze the traits commonly associated with the House.
• Reflect on how and why cultural perceptions of Slytherin have changed (or not) over decades.
• Explore whether ambition, cunning, and resourcefulness are inherently negative, and how these traits manifest in other Houses.
• Investigate the mechanisms in Hogwarts (and in us as readers) that perpetuate Slytherin’s reputation—and who benefits from that.
• Engage with community responses and survey data for multifaceted insight.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Slytherin’s Reputation: Villains and Revisionism

• Womble frames Slytherin as “the purported villains of the text” (01:18), noting the House’s history of slander, but also the recent trend of readers revisiting and reclaiming Slytherin identity.
  • “Some of us came with lies, deceptions, fallacies, and foolishness.” (01:50, Host 1)
  • Considers if being a Slytherin is inherently negative, or if bias predetermines interpretation.

2. Embodying the Slytherin Identity

• Womble shares personal experience being sorted into Slytherin and identifies with the House’s complexities and contradictions (04:05–04:24).
• Posits that, contrary to stereotypes, Slytherins are fundamentally communal—not “lone wolves,” but “pack people”:
  • “One of the biggest misconceptions about Slytherins is that these are lone wolves … They are very much about community. Now, maybe not in a way that we would like … but we can’t deny the community that exists.” (12:05–13:16)

3. Core Traits: Ambition, Cunning, Resourcefulness

• From listener survey: The three most cited words for Slytherin are “ambition,” “cunning,” and “resourceful.” (15:26)
• Womble interrogates why ambition (especially Slytherin ambition) is problematized, while the same traits in other Houses are recast as positive:
  • “I think we are conditioned in these books to view ambition in a very specific way. And I don’t necessarily think that it’s doing us … any service.” (15:56)
  • Cunning defined as “achieving one’s ends by deceit or evasion,” thus automatically linking Slytherins with negative connotations. (16:26–17:04)
  • “If we were to remove what it is that [Draco] was doing it for, we would be patting him on the back…” (18:13–18:39)

4. The Ambiguity of Ambition

• Survey results (22:37): 69% see ambition/cunning/resourcefulness as strengths, but disparities emerge by House:
  • 86% of Slytherins see these as strengths; only 5% as flaws.
  • Hufflepuffs most likely to see them as flaws (18%), likely rooted in perceptions of self-service versus communal good. (26:11–26:48)
• Slytherin ambition can be for group advancement, not just self.
• Parallel drawn: Fred and George Weasley, Dumbledore, Hermione, and Harry all display “raw, relentless ambition” (65:14–65:22)—the main difference is narrative framing.

5. Slytherin as a (Purposefully?) Misunderstood House

• 80% of listeners think Slytherin is misunderstood (31:42), with Slytherins most likely (93%) to feel this way.
• The bias is structurally baked in:
  • “They are cast from the moment that we find out about the houses as being bad.” (32:46)
  • Ron’s quote is often misread: “There is not a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn’t in Slytherin.” (33:02)
    Womble clarifies the conflation of “all Slytherins are bad” versus “all bad wizards are Slytherins”—a logical fallacy.

6. Sorting, Self-Selection, and Socialization

• On accepting a Slytherin sorting, Womble is skeptical about the “revisionist history” in survey results (44:11):
  • “I can’t tell if this is the revisionist history of … being now adults and understand[ing] the world differently…” (41:39–41:57)
  • Questions if Slytherin is now “the cool house” (45:04–45:26) due to online fandom phenomena (i.e., Dramione).
  • Self-selection bias: “Harry tells the hat no to Slytherin … So there is a self-selection bias that exists in the housing system…” (69:13)

7. Which Characters Best Embody Slytherin?

• Listeners’ top picks: Snape, Slughorn, Dumbledore (48:08–48:53)
  • Notably, both Dumbledore and Hermione—Gryffindors—are named by Slytherins for embodying Slytherin attributes.
    • “This feels right to me that Albus Dumbledore is in the house because resourcefulness, cunning, ambition … he’s here.” (49:22–49:26)
  • Discussion: Ambition, cunning, and resourcefulness permeate the entire cast—not “siloed” to Slytherin.

8. What Makes a Good Slytherin?

• Compiled survey wisdom:
  • “[A] Slytherin … distinguishes themself … while still maintaining loyalty to their own.” (56:42)
  • “Someone who takes stock of the world … and uses it to their advantage, without losing sight of their values.” (56:57)
  • “Someone who uses ambition for the good of others as well as themselves, showing that self-interest and collective well-being can align.” (57:22)
• Notably, most of these perspectives came from non-Slytherins.

9. Reflection: Rethinking Slytherin’s Defining Trait

• Womble contrasts earlier House reflections (which examined the “dark side” of ‘good’ traits) with a “good side” look at Slytherin’s “bad” trait—ambition (61:35+).
• Argues that Rowling’s own narrative ambition gave rise to Harry Potter; the world only exists due to ambition, yet inside the books, it’s villainized.
• “Ambition is everywhere in this story. It just gets reframed depending on who embodies it … The trait itself doesn’t change, but the narrative around it does.” (67:37)
• Critiques Hogwarts for failing to mentor ambition into generative outcomes, instead letting Slytherin become a prejudice-filled echo chamber.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Slytherin’s Characterization:

  • “We are conditioned by J.K. Rowling and by the characters in these books who are not Slytherins—but I also think we are conditioned by Slytherins to buy into the propaganda that all Slytherins are evil. And I think that’s by design.” (41:02–41:14, Prof. Womble)

• On Community:

  • “We very rarely see Slytherins doing anything by themselves … the idea of being in community is something that I think is really pivotal and integral to the way that Slytherins understand themselves.” (12:23–13:16, Prof. Womble)

• On ‘Good’ Slytherins:

  • “You have to distinguish yourself in an area such as defense, potions, or politics and use your ambition to excel while still maintaining loyalty to your own.” (56:42, survey response read by Prof. Womble)

• On Ambition and Perception:

  • “Ambition is everywhere in this story. It just gets reframed depending on who embodies it. For Slytherin, ambition is a curse. For Gryffindors, it’s bravery. For Ravenclaws, it’s genius. And for Hufflepuffs, it’s dedication…” (67:37, Prof. Womble)

• On Hogwarts’ Failure:

  • “Hogwarts had seven years with these kids…when they were young enough to unlearn bias, and it chose not to intervene. … That’s just not a failure of Slytherins. That’s a Hogwarts failure.” (68:56–69:10, Prof. Womble)

• On Revisionism and Popularity:

  • “…the Dramione moment that we find ourselves in has made Slytherin House the cool house. … Now all of a sudden, you want to be in Slytherin house? You can’t come. I’m so sorry, you’re not allowed…” (45:14–45:45, Prof. Womble)

• On Attention:

  • “‘Better to be seen than to be viewed.’ … There’s a lot of Slytherin dynamic in that idea… I just don’t want to be here; I want to be here in a capacity of liveliness… I honestly don’t necessarily care about how I’m being thought of. It’s the fact that I’m being thought of that I like.” (39:24–40:12, Prof. Womble)

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Important Timestamps and Segments

• Slytherin’s Introduction and Reputation: 01:09–02:32
• Traits and Their Connotations: 15:24–17:13
• Survey Data Breakdown and Analysis: 22:21–26:48
• Misunderstandings and House Perceptions: 31:42–37:42
• Sorting and Self-Selection Issues: 41:14–46:27
• Character Embodiments Discussion: 48:08–53:38
• ‘Good Slytherin’ Definitions: 56:42–58:23
• House Reflection and Final Analysis: 61:28–72:20

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Summary: Takeaways for New Listeners

• The episode moves far beyond Slytherin-bashing or Slytherin-apologia, offering a nuanced, witty, and sometimes sharply critical perspective on how both the books and their readers paint Slytherin House.
• Ambition, cunning, and resourcefulness are not inherently negative—what they mean and how they’re judged is shaped by narrative needs, Hogwarts’ institutional failures, and our own cultural baggage.
• Misunderstandings of Slytherin are structural, rooted in both how the school functions and how fandoms evolve.
• Nearly every main character displays Slytherin-ish ambition; what makes a character “good” or “bad” for that ambition is not the trait itself, but how others narrate and judge it.
• Womble closes by asking the audience: “What could Slytherin be if ambition wasn’t treated as corruption?”—urging listeners toward critically magical thinking and an openness to revision.

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Stay critical, stay magical.

Transcript

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[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Welcome to Critical Magic Theory where we deconstruct the Wizarding world of Harry Potter.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because loving something doesn't mean we can't.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Be critical of it.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I'm Professor Julian Womble and today we are talking about my house. Huh? Slytherin house.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We have talked about Hufflepuffs, we've talked about Ravenclaws. Now we're getting into the villains, the purported villains of the text.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I of course am very excited.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Because I love being a Slytherin and I find it to be a very kind of interesting existence, particularly in the Harry Potter universe. Because what we will find in the.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Responses that some of us have brought to bear in the survey is that we've had a lot of revisionist history.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Over the past 30 some odd years as it pertains to being Slytherin and what our thoughts are about Slytherin. Some of us came with lies, deceptions, fallacies and foolishness. I hate to say it, but I.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Know that y' all have been out.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Here cursing the name of Slytherins for.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Many a decade and now all of.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

A sudden we're coming with something new and we're going to talk about why. We're going to talk about why it is that somehow we've revised the way that we understand what it means to.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Be Slytherin and we're going to consider what that means. Have you ever wondered if every Slytherin is evil when they get to Hogwarts? Or does being in the house make them evil?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

If they're evil at all.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Or is having ambition really a problem? Or how do we square the pre existing bias against Slytherin house with people who end up getting sorted into it? Y', all, we are getting into every bit of it today. But first, you already know and the bop might have a little serpentine twist.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

To it this time around, right?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

So you need to be stretching, but.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

You also need to be loosening up your spine because we're kind of moving in a snake like formation for this bop.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And if you weren't ready, you need to get ready because the bop is coming in three, in two, in one. Let's bop.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We need to talk about Harry Potter.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Sam. I hope you danced, y'.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

All.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Oh, I'm like, I'm always excited, but we're talking about my house and I just, I'm excited to both rip and.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Run, but also really think deeply about what it means to be a Slytherin. And I'm excited to bring my own experiences in because being a Slytherin is.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Something that I actually think about quite a bit, which might be surprising to.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Some of you because you know that I'm not someone who overthinks anything ever, like, at all. Welcome back everyone. Thank you so much for your insights on the Ravenclaw episodes.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I really felt myself locking in on my Ravenclaw moon. And I also feel like I started.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Looking at people in my life who I know are Ravenclaws and seeing them through a different lens. And that was an amazing, amazing thing. And I feel like I've learned a.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Lot more about Ravenclaws, particularly the idea.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of the journey versus the outcome dynamic.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

That we discussed in the two episodes on Ravenclaws. And I think there's something about that.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

That really resonates with me in terms of my own experiences as a Slitherclaw.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And how it is that I balance.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The journey and the outcome and also thinking about the notion of ambition in the midst of all of those, in the midst of that journey and what that then means for the way that I think about the outcome.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so thank you all so much.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

For bringing all of your thoughts and all of your own experiences to the surveys and to the conversation in the post episode chat that we had on Patreon.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Speaking of Patreon, please feel free to join us if you haven't already.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

You can join for free for the post episode chats. You can also join as paid subscribers for bonus content ad free episodes. If you join as a chronic overthinker, you can join for a week weekly, a monthly virtual meetup, which we will be having on Saturday. I'm very excited. I don't know what we're going to talk about. The Chronic Overthinkers always bring something and so it will be wonderful. Also, the Chronic Overthinkers and Deep Divers will be getting a bonus episode next.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Week where I'm going to be discussing.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And continuing our conversation about the classes and courses taught at Hogwarts. And this class that I'll be talking about is History of Magick. Speaking of Chronic overthinkers, I would like to thank our newest recruit, Alicia, or Alicia. Whichever one it is, I hope it's one of those two. Thank you so much for joining and providing both your financial, but also your.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Time and your energy, all of those.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Things to this community. It does not go unnoticed and it does not go unappreciated, y', all, as always, there is merch. There's T shirts. People are getting those Voldemort T shirts.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Life was hectic.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

I was on vacation.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I know.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

I told you I had merch ideas. They are coming, I promise. The semester's about to begin. I haven't even looked at what my syllabus is. I've got to get my life together. In the meantime, between time, there is still merch and there for you. You can go find it at criticalmagictheory.com, click the merch button and it will take you right to the shop.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And as you know, we only have.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

One more house left.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

So next week you will be getting. Well, maybe even this week.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Why next week? This week you will be getting the survey for Gryffindors.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Now admittedly, I don't think we have.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

That many Gryffindors who listen to the podcast. I know we have some. I know we have some. And they will make themselves known because Gryffindors are want to do that. But I have a lot of thoughts on Gryffindors and I know that there's going to be a battle royale and.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

So I cannot wait. And so everyone buckle up.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

But before we get to the lions, let's get to the snakes. Okay? Let's get to the nitty gritty. Let's get into the fun of Slytherin house.

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[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

When I had to think.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

About a favorite moment of mine that involved Slytherin house, I didn't really know.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because most of what we see from.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Slytherins are slurs, madness, absurdity, foolishness, the like. And so I was like, I don't really know if I have a favorite Slytherin moment. But then I thought about the Chamber.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Of Secrets and I thought to myself, okay, so this isn't necessarily a moment.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

In the books, but it is a.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Location in the books. And I thought about the origin story.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

That we get in the post canonical.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Lore and I love it. Because one thing that I think is.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

True about Slytherins in general, we love.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

A show, we love the drama, we love making sure that everyone knows that.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We are doing the most.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Like there is a way in which.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Slytherins live for opulence and not just.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

In terms of physical possessions, but in.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Terms of so many things, right?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And the Chamber of Secrets to me.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Is a manifestation of that kind of gaudiness.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because why do you need a chamber.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

That is like beneath the school when you have a common room that is literally in the dungeon?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Why do you need a thing that.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Requires you, Salazar Slytherin, to speak in parsel tongue that no one else can do, not even people in your house, right?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Like you wanted to flex on the girls. You wanted them to know, like, you may be a part of my house, but I'm better than you and don't.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

You ever, ever, ever forget it.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And there's nothing to me that kind of encapsulates the.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Messiness of Slytherins than that particular dynamic.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I just love the idea of Salazar being like, hmm, what should I do? I know we already have a secret.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Space because no one knows where our common room is. All of the houses are trying to keep secrets from one another.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But, you know, it would be even more fun if we had another spot, if we had a secondary location that I could take. Maybe not everybody but my faves. And the only way that we're going.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

To get there is if I speak in a language that no one else can speak in.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And you know what else? We need a mascot. We need a pet. And you know what? That pet's going to be?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

A basilisk.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

What? Like that was your decision.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

I just love the madness of the entire thing.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I also think there's something about the communal nature of that particular dynamic, because I think that one of the.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Biggest misconceptions about Slytherins is that these are lone wolves. Lone wolves. Lone wolves.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I think that what is true about a lot of the Slytherins that we meet is that they are very much pack people. They are very much about community. Now, maybe not in a way that.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We would like or not a community.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

We would want to be a part of, but that there is something about the fact that we very rarely see Slytherins doing anything by themselves. Draco is always flanked by Crab and Goyle. Voldemort has an entire posse of Death Eaters. And other people who are followers, who are not people who got the tat Right. Like, the idea of being in community is something that I think is really pivotal and integral to the way that Slytherins understand themselves. And so I love the idea of.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The Chamber of Secrets being this kind.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Of like secret society space because I think it really does tap into the desire for exclusivity, but also the notion of inclusivity of certain kinds of people. Right? And again, we may not agree with the ideological lean of the community, but we can't deny the community that exists.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And I think that at its onset, right, that's what the Chamber of Secrets was for.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And one of the things that I've.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Really been kind of pondering about when I went back and looked and checked.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Is that the first Sorting Song that.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We hear when Harry, Ron and Hermione arrive at Hogwarts, it says that.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

It says, or perhaps in Slytherin, you'll make your real friends. And what strikes me about that is that in none of the other house.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Descriptions that the Sorting Hat provides us does it talk about friends. It doesn't talk about creating community.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

It talks about the attributes and all of these things, but it doesn't talk about making friends, let alone real friends. And so I think that one of the things about Slytherin that is interesting is that these people are community oriented. They are pack people again. And I want us to kind of think about that because I know some.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of us in our response is really focused on the individualism of, of Slytherins.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But cast your minds out and think about these moments. I mean, even when Draco is trying to figure out how to bring the Death Eaters into the castle he has Crabbe and Goyle standing sentinel outside the Room of Requirement. He is not doing this by himself. They may not know what he is up to but he and Crab and Goyle are just as locked in as Harry, Ron and Hermione. Now some of us may say Crabbe.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And Goyle are not his friends, I would grant that.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But he's not doing it by himself. Right? Slytherins are not individual people. They do things together. And I think that that is a.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Piece of their kind of lore and their space that we don't talk about. A the first question that you all had to answer in the survey was what is the.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

When you think about Slytherins, what is.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

One word that you would use to describe them? The number one word was ambition. The second was cunning. And the third was resourceful. All of which makes sense given the fact that we are told that those are the attributes of this house.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And then when we disaggregate that out.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

By house those are all the words that come up again. So everyone has kind of agreed about this particular thing and I think we're going to spend a lot of time talking about the notion of ambition because.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I think we are conditioned in these.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Books to view ambition in a very specific way. And I don't necessarily think that it's doing us as readers or as people, some of whom may be ambitious, I don't think it's doing us any service.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I think that we tend to conflate the notion of ambition with the idea of cunning. And I think that that's also a really fascinating conflation to make because cunning obviously is not.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Doesn't necessarily have the best connotation. I think when we think about what it means to be cunning we find ourselves kind of thinking about people who are up to kind of nefarious things. In fact, just like a simple definition that I found is having or showing skill in achieving one's ends by deceit or evasion.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

So immediately right.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We are made to believe that deceit and or evasion, deception are all part.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Of the way that individuals go about achieving their ambitious goals. And so from the very beginning we are led to believe that if this.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Is a chief trait of Slytherins, then.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

They are up to no good if.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

They'Re up to anything. Right.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And because the idea of resourcefulness is.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Not something that is inherently bad either.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Right. They're scrappy. I mean, when we think about the way that Draco basically came up with.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The plan to get those Death Eaters into Hogwarts that's resourceful. That is cunning.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Now, again, it was a problem because.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Obviously you're letting in people who shouldn't be into the castle but you figured.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Out a way to grant them access to an outlandishly protected. Particularly in Book six, Right. When the Ministry has stepped up security.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

At Hogwarts you figured out a way.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

To get them into the castle undetected by any of the charms and spells.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

That have been cast to protect the students.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Under the nose of Dumbledore. Under the nose of any of the people, the other people who have been put in charge. They've got Aurors running around this place.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Trying to protect it.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And you were able to get it in using a broken Vanishing Cabinet that you had to repair without any help.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Like, don't tell me that that's not.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Resourceful and that the plan itself was very, very, very ambitious. And I think that there is a way that, like, if we were to remove what it is that he was doing it for we would be patting him on the back and the fact that he was stressed beyond belief because his life was actively at stake. And I'm not defending Draco because you.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

All know how I feel about Draco.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I'm not defending him. But I think that when we think about what it means to be a Slytherin through the lens of these particular.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Attributes, ambition, cunning and resourcefulness that particular.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Moment is a moment where we really.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Do get a very strong sense of.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

How it is that Slytherins operate. And I also think that it helps us really kind of, again, build the bridge between Ravenclaws and Slytherins. Because Draco's very focused on the outcome in this moment. Right?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The outcome is getting the Death Eaters.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Into the castle and the journey stresses him out. And I think if Draco had been a Ravenclaw, he would have found maybe.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

This without the high stakes of, like, life or death but he would have.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Found the process of figuring out how.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The Vanishing Cabinet worked and trying to.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Make and, you know, trying to figure.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Out how to fix it and, you.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Know, the notion of, how are you going to get to Dumbledore? Like, all of those things would have been a little bit more exciting to him, but his goal and the thing that he takes place pride in in the end when he's kind of not.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Bragging but kind of saying like, but.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I did it is the outcome. And I think that that really does.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Sum up a lot of how we.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Understand who he is as a person.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

But also who he is as a Slytherin.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And when we think about the idea of ambition, again, I think J.K. rowling has a really, really hard time with the notion of it.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And we're going to talk about that in the reflection because it doesn't make any sense to me.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I think, you know, the cunning part of it is also kind of tricky for me, namely because, and we'll talk about this a little bit as well, like none of these things feel siloed into Slytherin, right? Like the notion of being cunning is.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Not something that we see only locked in on Slytherins.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Like we see Gryffindors particularly engaging in very cunning behavior. Our golden trio, they get up to some things they love, some deceit. In that same book, Harry literally takes a potion so that he can deceive and trick Slughorn into giving him a memory that is integral. The difference here, and this is important, is the outcome, right?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Like the difference here is how we.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Understand, like whether or not what he's doing is a good thing. And I think that that is a really big piece of what sums up.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The way we think about Slytherins and their ambition and their cunning and their resourcefulness.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

It's all about the outcome.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Like, why are they doing it?

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[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

The next question that we had to.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Contend with is whether or not this ambition, cunning and resourcefulness are seen as strengths, flaws, or you all didn't know.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

In the aggregate, everyone.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

About 69% of us said it was a strength. About 12% of us said that it was a flaw. And about 19% of us said don't know, which is interesting.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And again, I'm wondering because so many.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of us are coming back to this particular dynamic as adults, whether or not.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And as adults who are for many.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of us, I've looked at the demographics. I know where we all sit. Pretty much we are all in spaces and places now where we have goals.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

We have things that we want, and we are willing to do what we.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Need to do to get them.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

For most of us, the notion of ambition doesn't quite seem as problematic as it did when we were children, when reaching our goals didn't require as much. Maybe that is why.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

So, you know, 70% of us basically are saying that we think that these things are strengths.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But the story becomes a little bit more nuanced and a little bit different.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

When we look at this and disaggregate by Hogwarts House. Now, I always forget to do this, and it's my fault because I am very caught up in the. In our normal.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Our normal layout. And so I forgot to tell us.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

What the breakdown of the houses were.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I forgot to tell us how many people respond to the survey. Good. What am I doing?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

I got too excited because it's my house. We had 420 people respond. And the house breakdown is as follows. About 36% of us who answered this survey were Slytherins. About 29% were Ravenclaws, about 23% of us were Hufflepuffs, and about 13% of us were Gryffindors. So this is probably the most diverse house layout that we've had for the housing episodes thus far.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Which is interesting because that means that we can kind of like, we don't have to worry about a particular lien, right?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Because we're dealing with, you know, no more than 40, no more than 36% of the people being in one house.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

So that when we disaggregate out by.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

House and look at the perceptions of ambition, resourcefulness and cunning as a strength.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Or a flaw, what we get is.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

That Slytherins overwhelmingly see their defining traits as strengths, while the other houses are.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

More conflicted and tend to register more.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

These things as more flaws than anything else and a lot more uncertainty.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

So Slytherins.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

About 86% of Slytherins said that they believed that These things were strengths. And Of Slytherins, only 5% said it was a flaw and only about 9% said don't know. Ravenclaw said about 61% said it was a strength, about 14% said it was a flaw and 25% said they didn't know. Hufflepuffs, about 58% said they thought it was a strength, 18% said it was a flaw and about 24% said they don't know. And then Gryffindor's about 63% said they thought that these things were strengths. About 15% said it was a flaw and About 22% said they don't know. Now this is fascinating because what we see is that Hufflepuffs of all the houses are more likely to say that this is, that these things are flaws.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I find that really fascinating. And I wonder, you know, what it is and maybe right it is.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

You know, we talked a lot about Hufflepuffs being a very kind of communal group, that they have a lot of.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Loyalty and that they are kind of very group based and so are Slytherins. But I think that when we think.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

About notions of ambition, cunning and resourcefulness, it all seems very self serving in.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

A way that I don't think we necessarily see for like when we conceptualize.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The idea of Hufflepuffs.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so perhaps that's why Hufflepuffs are a little bit more dubious of ambition, of cunning, of resourcefulness, because they're like you're doing that for you and not for other people. And I would push back on that. I think that there are ways in which you can be all of those things for a group of people. Those things don't necessarily have to kind of be a self centered situation. And that you can have goals for a body of people, right, and that your goals of achieving them may be collective. And I think again, when we think about the Death Eaters, right, like their goal is to please Voldemort, which again.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Is a very ambitious one because Voldiva is not easily pleased by anything.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But they do work together. And what is interesting is that we really rarely see them trying to one up one another to get more from him, right? Like Barty Crouch Jr. Is probably the only one who we see is like trying to kind of be the teacher's pet. And he is not a Slytherin like Bellatrix. She's just kind of like, I will do whatever and I don't even think.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

She'S thinking about anyone else.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

She's just like, I want you to recognize me. And if it means that I have to work with other people, then I will. But what else is true about Bellatrix.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Is that she also lies to Voldemort about Narcissa.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because I think for Slytherins, family is a really important thing and they are willing to do whatever it takes for the people who they care about, even.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

If we don't necessarily agree with that.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so in that way, I think that there is a really fascinating. There's a fascinating way of understanding, you know, what does it mean to be a Slytherin, and whether or not the.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Notion of ambition and resourcefulness, whether these.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Are strengths, and I think I'm biased, I'm biased, but I think that they are strengths. I think. And again, I think that we would say that they were strengths if we saw them applied in ways that fit.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

With our moral imperative.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I think that a lot of what Harry wants to accomplish is ambitious, right? Like, at a certain point, he doesn't have much help from anyone other than Ron and Hermione. And he's still on a Horcrux hunt.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

You can't tell me that's not ambitious.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And is willing to kind of do whatever it takes to bring down Voldemort.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We're going to talk about that a little bit more later on.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I think that there is a way that that's a very ambitious pursuit. And he. And when I say he's willing to do anything, I mean he breaks into the Ministry of Magic to get the locket right. They have all kind. I mean, like, Harry is ambitious in his goal setting. He is. I mean, we're talking about someone who, at the age of 11, made the independent decision after being out in the Forbidden Forest to say, I've got to.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Go down and try to get the Sorcerer's Stone before Snape does. Y', all, that's ambitious.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

You barely know magic. You barely know what's going on. And so I think that a lot of the way that we view Slytherins is not even through the lens of how it is that they arrive at what they're doing, but rather the why.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of what they're doing.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Which is fascinating because so much of the discussion that we had for Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws was thinking about the why of their loyalty, the why of their intellect. And yet it seems like for Slytherins, all we're focused on is the why.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And not the necessity, necessarily the what.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And that feels really, really fascinating to me.

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[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Do you think that Slytherin is a misunderstood house? In the aggregate, about 80% of us said yes, 13% of us said no, and about 7% of us said don't. No.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Now this is fascinating because of the.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Four houses, I would say that Slytherin is the second house that we spend the most time with in terms of like our characters, right? Like obviously Gryffindor beats us out. We spend a lot of time with Gryffindors, right? Our main characters are all in Gryffindor, but Draco Malfoy is Harry Potter's nemesis slash boyfriend. And so, so we spend a considerable amount of time with them.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And also, you know, they take a lot of classes with Slytherins, for better or for worse. And so we do spend a lot of time with them. But I. And so I think that a lot.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of people's misunderstandings of Slytherins really does.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Come from the fact that they are cast from the moment that we find.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Out about the houses as being bad.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so with that in mind, how could we not misunderstand Slytherins, right? Like we often talk about, many of you have gotten on my case, in.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Fact, in many an episode about, you know, painting with broad brushes and not.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Really going into nuance and doing all of these things. And yet there seems to be such a very strong willingness to kind of forego the need for nuance and thinking about, you know, the individuals in Slytherin House who might not be pure blood supremacists, who might not agree with what is being put forth, but are afraid because of reputational sanction and potential violence on the part of those individuals who tend to be more powerful and more vocal in the house. Right? And so the idea then that, you know, we as readers from the very beginning, because Ron says there is not a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn't in Slytherin, which I think is a very fascinating thing because I think that what we come to take.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

That as is everybody in Slytherin is bad.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But what he says is any witch or wizard who has gone bad has come from Slytherin. Not that every Slytherin or every person who comes out of Hogwarts who is a Slytherin is bad. And that is a really important distinction to make. Not to mention the fact that we have spent the vast majority of our time thus far talking through some of these characters. And what we find is that our Ravenclaws are not squeaky clean. Huh? We know for a fact that our Gryffindors aren't squeaky clean because we are going to be talking about the one.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And only Albus Dumbledore in Not Too Long of a Time.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And many of you are going to.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Have many things to say about him.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I'm going to bring him up even in this reflection. But we're not going to get into.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The nitty gritty of him. Y' all are not going to trick me. You won't bamboozle me.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Okay? I know what you all are up.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

To, and I'm not going to have it.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I think that there is a way that we have seen some very dubious and, dare I say, evil behavior come from people who are not in Slytherin House. And yet I think there's the biggest misconception is that everyone who comes out of Slytherin is bad. And again, like, that is not what Ron says. He says there is not a witch or wizard who has gone bad that wasn't in Slytherin. Which is to say that there is a sample size of people who have gone bad who have come out of that place. And how does he even know? The only one that we really know is Vladiva. Vl. Dva.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Vladiva.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

You decide how you want the syllable.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

To fall on the emphasis. That's not my business.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I really. It is fascinating to me because people just buy into the lore. And I know that we need to have a villain, right?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And we need to have an Animus and Draco serves that for us.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And that there is a way that, you know, we understand what it means to be, you know, a Slytherin is to be a problematic. Is to be someone who holds really.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Prejudicial views of Muggle, Borns and Muggles.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Like, but those people are the loudest. Are we really willing to believe and assert ourselves with the belief that everyone in that House, both past, present and future, are all having those same beliefs? And how then do we reconcile the other people who exhibit the characteristics of Slytherin and aren't in Slytherin? Because the question becomes, is it the House or is it the attributes?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We're going to talk about that a little later, though. That was just a little teaser for you. That was just a little teaser for you.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I do think that, yes, Slytherin House is misunderstood. And I think that part of the misunderstanding is purposeful one, because it's a children's book and we need to have.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

A villain and we need to have a House to root against. And so. And our, you know, nemesis, boyfriend, enemies to lovers trope is Draco Malfoy, who is in Slytherin and is the loudest and most, you know, diabolically annoying person that we meet.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But at the end of the day, I think it's really fascinating to think about this. And when we disaggregate this out by House, what we find is that Slytherins are much more.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Huh, what are much more likely to say that this House is misunderstood with 93% of Slytherins saying yes, with 77% or 78% of Ravenclaw saying it's misunderstood, 72% of Hufflepuffs and 61% of Gryffindors. Gryffindors are the most likely to say no, with 26% of people saying no.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so there are meaningful differences between the Houses in terms of the perceptions of what it means to be misunderstood. I also think that it's the easiest way out. I think it's a very easy thing.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

To basically be like, oh yeah, like Slytherins are evil.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And don't get me wrong, there is.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

A lot of evidence that provides a lot of fodder for this belief structure.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But what I am saying is that in the same way that we were willing to leave room for Neville to be able to kind of manifest his.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Bravery in a certain way, in the.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Same way that we are willing to see Luna and say, like, look at this person who, by the, by the assertion and behavior of her own House, is not fitting into the paradigm. Like, we. Like that level of nuance seemingly doesn't exist for Slytherin. And I think it's due in large part to the fact that, like, we are socialized by these books to see.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Slytherins in a very particular and specific way.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I also think that, like. Yep. And what's more is I think that a lot of Slytherins want this to be.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

They want this right?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because, again, what did I say at.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The beginning of the episode?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Slytherins love a show. They love drama. And I know I've talked to some.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Some of the Slytherins who are listeners.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And we were laughing because I'm like, you know, some of us want to be the villain. Some of us want to just be the villain because, one, it makes us feel great.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

It means you're thinking about us, huh?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

We love that.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We love that attention.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

It means that you are afraid of us. And some people love that. It also means that we are front top of mind always. And I think that there is a way that, you know, a lot of Slytherins buy into their own propaganda because it means that, like, you are being thought of.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

There is a saying that.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I think.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

It'S pretty prominent in the African American community.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And, you know, and a lot of.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Older black people say it all the time. And I've gone up to someone and.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I would say, oh, it's so good to see you. And they would say, better to be.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Seen than to be viewed.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Which is to say, better to be.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Alive and seen in a space than to be viewed as one is during a funeral.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I honestly believe that there's a.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Lot of Slytherin kind of dynamic in that idea.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Right. Of, like, I just don't want to be here. I want to be here in a capacity of, like, liveliness. I want to be front of mind. I'm so happy that you are thinking about me. And I honestly don't necessarily care about how I'm being thought of. It's the fact that I'm being thought.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of that I like.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And, I don't know, something about that resonates with me.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Okay, I'm not gonna hold you. Something about that resonates with me.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so that when we think about.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Why the misunderstandings around Slytherins persist, some.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Of it is us. Huh? Some of it is us. Some of it is the idea of, like, we like the exclusivity. We like the fact that everyone doesn't want to be in Slytherin because it's like, yeah, no. And you shouldn't be. You're not as good and like, you're not exploring this the way that we are. And so if you think we're evil.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

If we're the villain in your narrative, so be it.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

That's fine with us. It is what it is. And there's something so fascinating about that because I do think that, yes, we.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Are conditioned by J.K. rowling and by the characters in these books who are not Slytherins.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I also think we are conditioned by Slytherins to buy into the propaganda.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

That all Slytherins are evil. And I think that that's by design. I think that some people in the house want that to be the perception that is put forth.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

The next question was, would you accept being sorted into Slytherin in the aggregate?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

About 66% of us said yes, about 21% of us said no, and about 13% of us said don't. No. Now this is where I said we're lying. I posted this on Instagram and I said some of us are absolutely lying.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And again, I can't tell if this.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Is kind of the revisionist history of the way that we've come to understand Slytherin House just because we are now adults and understand the world differently and.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

We were conditioned in the Harry Potter.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Text when we were reading them as.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Children to really want to be Gryffindors.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And that felt like the most important.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Thing that we needed to do and be. But at the end of the day.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

I have a lot of follow up.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Questions because I'm like, what do you mean that more than two, not even more than that.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Two thirds of us said that you.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Would accept being put into Slytherin. Something is amiss, something is not right. Because I know for a full fact.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

That that simply is not true.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

It just simply is not.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

But then I looked at the disaggregated data and I think that this effect is being driven by the Slytherins in the data because 97% of the Slytherins in the data said that they would accept, which makes sense. 57% of Ravenclaw said that they would accept, which also we talked a little bit about their connection to one another.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

46% of Gryffindors said that they would.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Be willing to accept being sorted into slytherin and only 38% of pople pops.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And it's so fascinating because everyone is.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Always talking about how Hufflepuff and Slytherins are like, you know, these people who are, you know, they are sister houses and they are Together. And you know, every Hufflepuff needs a Slytherin best friend. The Hufflepups in this survey are not telling us that story. They are not telling us that story because 44% of them said they would not accept being sorted into Slytherin.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

44%.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Like more people said no than said yes in Hufflepuff. That's the story that's being told. And so when we think about this, it makes a little bit more sense when we disaggregate out by house because we can see that Slytherins are driving the effect.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I don't think that anyone wants to be sorted into Slytherin. We literally meet Harry when he is getting sorted and he tells the sorting Hat, do not put me in Slytherin. I think his exact words are anywhere but Slytherin.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Not Slytherin, not Slytherin.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Like they we are conditioned by our protagonist to not want to be in this house. And so for those of you who have decided that, you know, at this.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Current time in your life that you would be willing, right, for the aggregate 66% of you, for the 46% of Gryffindors, the 38% of Hufflepuffs and the 57% of Ravenclaws.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Why now? And tell me in the post episode chat, was this something that was always true for you? Because I feel very strongly that you.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

All were not out here doing this before. This was not the belief structure that you all were having.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And you know me, I've got to.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Call it like I see it.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And as I see it, this is revisionist history. And I and some people wrote in.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

My DMs on Instagram that like this is the byproduct of a kind of, you know, Slytherins being a kind of now becoming like the cool house. And some people said, oh, that it's the Dramione girlies. And when I say girlies, I'm being gender inclusive. The girls, the gays, the theys, and.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Maybe some of the cishet men as well. I don't know your story, but that the Dramione moment that we find ourselves.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

In has made Slytherin House the cool house.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I'm like, is it, Are you all about this life? Because y' all are trying to get the bad boys, the bad people. And so now all of a sudden.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

You want to be in Slytherin house.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

You can't come.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

I'm so sorry, you're not allowed because.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

What do you mean now all of a sudden Draco is Hot and like, you know, breaking rules and breaking faces for Hermione.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

So now all of a sudden, you're trying to be in the house?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

No, stay where you are. I won't allow it.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

I won't allow it.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

You don't get to try to be in Slytherin now that you, that you.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Are attracted to Draco, I won't have it enough. So if that's why you did it, shame on you. Not really shame on you. But.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

No, you don't get to join, because I think again, and maybe some.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of us have been enlightened and maybe some of us have come to terms with the fact that we were conditioned poorly by J.K. rowling to see Slytherins in a very particular way. And now we are trying to rectify that particular reality by virtue of saying that we would be in the house. I don't think so.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I'm telling you, I was shook.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Shocked and just thrown off by some.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Of the responses when we were talking about Slytherins. And when I read you some of.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The things about what makes an admirable Slytherin, you'll see what I'm saying. Because growing up, I have always been a Slytherin. This was never a thing that I was not. I have taken every test many times over and it has always come back snake.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And hilariously, I don't even like snakes.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

But I've always been a Slytherin.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I have never shifted, changed or transfigured into anything other than what I am today. And so now that we have some of you fair weather Slytherin people rolling in, and maybe some of you have.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

You know, developed a bit of an edge and developed a bit of an ambition and developed a bit of a cunning over time, I'll grant that.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But some of you, I don't know.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

What you're up to, but here's what I have to say about that. No, absolutely not.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

We won't allow it. Because the revisionist, I don't forget.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And that's a very Slytherin trait. I'm holding a grudge. I don't forget. I'm like Voldiva when it comes to Lucious. I'll never forget. I'm sending you to the front lines of the Department of Mysteries where your hair is going to get messed up. I'm going to let you sit in the band for a bit. Where your hair is going to get even more messed up.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because who do you think you are? Who?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Who? 66%.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I don't believe it. I don't Believe it.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

It's time for chaos. As if my last rant wasn't chaotic enough, it is time for a little bit of chaos. And I hope that you all are ready because the next question is my favorite question of all of these house questions that I have to answer that I ask. And this question is which character best embodies being a Slytherin? And that they don't have to be a Slytherin. And y' all did not disappoint in the aggregate. For who best embodies Slytherin, we have Severus Snape. We have Horus Slughorn. We have Albus Dumbledore.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I have to say that I'm really.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Happy with these results.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

We have at least two Slytherins, which.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Is more than we've had in other houses. We've got two Slytherins and a Gryffindor.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And many of us spend a considerable.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Amount of time talking about how Slytherins and Gryffindors are two sides of the same coin. And so, like, the coin has been.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Flipped, the die has been cast, and Albus Dumbledore is here. And I'm not even going to argue.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

About why he shouldn't be because honestly.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

This feels right to me. It feels right to me that Albus.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Dumbledore is in the house because resourcefulness, cunning, ambition. We're going to get into it in the reflection, but he's here.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And as I said before, y' all.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Are not about to trick me into talking about him.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

He's going to have two, if not.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Three episodes dedicated to him where you.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

All can rant, rave and go off.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

To your heart's content. This is not that episode. We're talking about Slytherins.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Gryffindors always have a way of trying.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

To make it about them. We'll talk about that in a couple weeks when we disaggregate this out by house. For Gryffindors, we have Snape, Slughorn and Dumbledore.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Right?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And that's first, second and third order, right? So this is ranked in terms of the number of times that came up for each of these houses. For Hop Hops, we had Dumbledore, Snape and Draco Malfoy. For Ravenclaws, we had Snape, Slughorn and Percy Weasley. Long live him.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And then the Slytherins had a tie.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Between Hermione Snape and Dumbledore. Now, this is fascinating because what you're.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Saying is that there are two Gryffindors who embody the.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Attributes of Slytherin and.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

What do we have to say about that?

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Because I'm not saying that they're wrong. I'm not saying that they're wrong.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because I think that a lot of.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The way that Snape operates is definitely.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I think I'm less convinced about his.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Ambition and certainly, but certainly convinced by his cunning. I'm absolutely convinced by his resourcefulness, absolutely convinced by his resourcefulness when it comes to Slughorn, definitely his ambition is his calling card, right?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Like that man is willing to do whatever it takes to be seen, heard and noticed by the people who he deems important. Of course he's in Slytherin and he's willing to connect and do whatever it takes. And I think that people have a.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Lot of issues with Horace Slughorn because he doesn't take a side in the war until very much later on in the series.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I think that, and someone said this to me once, right, that Horace Slughorn really does embody kind of like a pre Voldemort Slytherin, right? And that this is the kind of.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Person that we would expect to have.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Seen in Slytherin prior to the Voldemort era. And I think that there is a way that, that also pinpoints why some of the other people are here, right? Like I look at Horace Slughorn and.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

I can see Percy Weasley.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I can see a Percy Weasley who is willing to do whatever it takes, who is willing to connect himself with whoever he needs to be connected with in order to get to where he needs to go. And to me, that is what being a Slytherin is. And I think that part of the reason why we are so dubious of Slytherins and with good reason again, but still dubious of them, is because we are engaging with Slytherins during a time period in which there is a moral quandary at work within the housing system. And that there is a self selection bias in Slytherin that then leads us to engage with them in a very specific and particular way that I don't think we would were we not in a Voldemort era. Because even during the Marauders time, Voldemort was not, not an entity, right? Like we know that later on Snape.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Becomes a Death Eater while he is at Hogwart.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

We know that like that mentality, that ideology was still very much part of the culture and very much kind of part of the Slytherin space. And so I think Horace Leghorn offers.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Us the, the truest kind of look.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

At what it would look like to be a Slytherin. And I think that there is a lot of kind of ideological ambivalence amongst a lot of these Slytherins because they're like, I would rather not have to engage with politics if it interferes with my ability to be able to get ahead. And again, many of us are not down with that.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And I understand that.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I also think that we live in a hyper politicized moment right now and that we can't imagine a context in which that would even be remotely true.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

For most of us.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so that the notion of silence just doesn't resonate with us as we.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Live through what we're living through right now, no matter where we are in the world.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And. But I think that Slickhorn operates from a very particular and specific space.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And I do see a lot of similarities between him, between him and Percy. Now let's get to Hermione Jean. This is not an episode about Hermione Jean Granger. But Ms. Ma' Am is ambitious.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I think again, she's ambitious in the way of like wanting to be the best. Now her motivation is different, I would say, because she wants to prove herself worthy of being in the magical world.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

By virtue of being like the smartest person.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But we're Talking about a 13 year old girl who basically was like, rather than saying no to certain classes, give.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Me a time traveling device so that I can go back in time and.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Have a chit chat with like other.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Teachers so that I can take these classes over and over again.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Hello. Like that's outlandishly ambitious. And then it got the best of her, right? But she was going to do it because Hermione operates with something to prove. She operates something to prove. And I think so does Snape in a lot of ways. Right? And it's not lost on me that both of them are coming from Muggle spaces, right? Like, we know that Snape's mother was a pureblood, but he lived in a Muggle place. He lived near Lily and Petunia. And so that there is this kind.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of desire to prove oneself that I.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Think exists in a way that is so far beyond the scope of what.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Other magically raised people have. And so maybe that's Snape's ambition, right? It's also to prove himself as worthy. Worthy of what is not clear to me. We'll talk about that in his episodes.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And then there's Dumbledore, who in theory has nothing to prove, but is still outlandishly, outlandishly ambitious in his pursuits, is ridiculously resourceful, manipulative, and cunning, lies, deceptions, fallacies and foolishness. Follow that man wherever he goes. And maybe we should have a T.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Shirt that says lies, deceptions, fallacies and foolishness.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But anyways, he is someone who is very much locked into whatever it takes to get the job done when we think about the notion of the greater good.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

But I'm getting ahead of myself. We'll talk about this more in the.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Reflection, but at the end of the day, none of these people on this.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

List feel like they shouldn't be here. And I think that that's fascinating because we've got a number of slither of Gryffindors represented here and I think the story tells itself.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

When asked what it means to be.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

A good Slytherin, this is what you all had to say.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Someone wrote, you have to distinguish yourself in an area such as defense potions or politics and use your ambition to excel while still maintaining loyalty to your own. Another person wrote, someone who takes stock of the world around them and knows how to use it to their advantage.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Without losing sight of their values. Another person wrote, someone who uses the canonical Slytherin traits, ambition, cunning and resourcefulness for positive change and not just personal gain.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Another person wrote, I think success ambition with no results is not admirable, but ambition with persistence and outcomes that matter.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Is what makes a good Slytherin. And another person wrote, someone who uses.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Ambition for the good of others as well as themselves, showing that self interest and collective well being can align.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Now, I want to say that most of those comments were not written by Slytherins.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I think that this is a really.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Fascinating way to think about what it means to be a good Slytherin, because.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I think that there is a way that many of us are like in.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Order to be a good Slytherin, you.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Need to use your ambition for good.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And we're going to talk about that.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so I'm not even going to really dive into all of these things because the reflection is going to touch.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

On a lot of the things that came up here.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But I am going to highlight the reality of what I always highlight when.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

We do these particular kinds of questions and that we've for Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Which is that again, there is this idealized idea that we come with about what it means to be a good member of any one of these houses. And I'm really fascinated in thinking about what it means, what this is going to look like when we think about.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Gryffindors who are like our kind of.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Shining beacon On a hill in terms.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of the houses and the traits and all the things. Now that's how this presented to us. I'm not saying that I believe that. So don't get ahead of yourselves, Gryffindors. I know y' all are patting yourselves on the back already.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Enough, enough. But I do think that there is a way that we have an expectation of what these things are supposed to look like. And I feel like we have Slytherins who do some of these things, right? And I think it's just hard for.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Us to like recognize it for what it is.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so like the notion of using your kind of resourcefulness, your cunning for positive change.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Some might say.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Some might say that that's Narcissa, right? Like she was cunning enough to lie to Voldemort's face resourceful enough to figure out how to get herself back to the castle and ambitious enough to do all of it and to recognize the issue. She was also ambitious enough to, to go to Severus and say, hey, we need a plan B, right? And that is like the latter point.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Was personal gain but the former point.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Was not because ultimately, yes, she wanted it for herself. But the benefits of lying to Voldemort is that basically Harry was alive and got to go back and destroy Voldemort. So without that act, which might have been self interested at the onset. And I think that there's a way that like we never would have had Harry come back at all if she.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Had just told him the truth.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And so I think that there, I think we tend to think about self interest and community interest as being kind.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of orthogonal from one another or mutually.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Exclusive, but they're not and they can exist in the same space. And I think the other thing that's interesting, right is that thinking about like values and there is a way that we tend to think that values operate.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Within the system space in the same way.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And I don't know, like one of.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The big values that we talk a lot about in political science is like altruism.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But like what it means to be altruistic doesn't necessarily mean that one's intentions are good, right? Like, like the Malfoys donated a lot of money to really charitable causes. That's what Cornelius Fudge tells us when Harry tells him that Lucius was in the graveyard. I'm like, so they're not not altruistic. There is an alternative. There's an ulterior motive at work, but they still do the thing. And so anyways, I want us to think about in the post episode chat.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

When we're having this conversation, I want.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Us to consider what our expectations are for any one of these houses. And not only is it realistic, but are we thinking about it in potentially overly simplified ways that then lead us to be disappointed when people don't do.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The thing we want them to do or expect them to do.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

You We've now reached the point in.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The episode where I'm going to reflect on Slytherin House.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Now, in the past two House reflections.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

On Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw, I've spent time interrogating the negative aspects of their defining traits. With Hufflepuffs, we talked about loyalty and.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

As beautiful as it is, how it can become conditional and weaponized. With Ravenclaws, we explore curiosity. For all its brilliance, it can lead to envy and isolation and even cruelty. But for Slytherin, I wanted to do something a little bit different. Namely because this is our bad house. And so for our good houses we've been thinking about the bad part.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

So for our bad house, I want to think about the good parts.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

It's just interesting that way, friends. Because the notion of ambition, unlike loyalty.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Or curiosity, is so problematized in the.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Text, we don't need to go searching for its dark side.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

The narrative has already done that for us.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Right. One of the moments that I often think about is I can't remember what it is. It might be in Goblet of Fire where Harry says something along the lines of like, well, Percy would never do that. And Ron goes, I don't know.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Percy is very ambitious.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

And it's said in a way that makes us become very dubious of Percy's ambition and what he's willing to give up in order to reach his ends. Right? And so ambition in these books is framed as dangerous, corrupt and villainous. So rather than adding to that, again, I want to flip it and think about this. What could Slytherin be if ambition wasn't.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Treated as corruption, but as a possibility?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because ambition itself is not inherently evil.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

It's drive, it's a vision, it's the.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Engine that takes ideas and turns them into action. It can certainly be corrupted, but it can also create. And maybe the more interesting reflection is not about what happens when ambition goes wrong, but what Slytherin might look like if ambition had been cultivated towards something. Right. And it's worth naming the irony here, right? These books are themselves a monument to ambition. J.K. rowling had to write a story, shop it around from publisher to publisher who kept saying no, refused to give up and then masked her gender with initials in order to secure commercial success. Like that is ambition in a nutshell. The entire world exists because of ambition. And yet inside the world of the story, ambition is the mark of a villain. That contradiction is worth holding as we think about what ambition means in the.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Context of Slytherin House.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because part of what makes this so fascinating to me is that ambition is everywhere in the books and not just in Slytherin House. Because again, Hermione is ambitious in her pursuit of knowledge, in her desire to be the best. Harry is ambitious in his refusal to give up, even in the face of impossible odds. Voldiva is ambitious in his pursuit of immortality and domination. And then there's Dumbledore, whose ambition, reframed as the greater good in his later years, drives him to orchestrate a decades long scheme.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Some might say plan, I'm going to.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Say scheme, to defeat Voldemort, even if it means sacrificing Harry in the process. So let's pause there for a moment because many of you in your comments talked about how Slytherin's ambition could be noble if it were directed towards good ends. And yet who embodies that more than Dumbledore? His entire project is about protection, victory over evil, and preserving the wizarding world. And still we are so deeply uncomfortable with him.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Again, this is not an episode about him, so we're not going to get into what makes us super uncomfortable.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

But his ambition required manipulation and secrecy and sacrifice. It required putting a child in harm's way. Dumbledore embodies the very ideal people say they want from Slytherins, ambition in service of the good. And yet we still recoil. We still are like, ugh. We still get the ick from him. And that, I think tells us something about how fraught the notion of ambition is, because even when it's good, it makes us uneasy. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we have people that we didn't even talk about. Their names didn't even come up. But their ambition stands out to me every single time I teach my course. And that's Fred and George Weasley. If you've listened to the podcast for a while, you know how much we love Fred and George. But let's be real, they might be the most ambitious characters in the entire.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Series outside of Dumbledore.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

They want to start a joke shop. So what do they do? They gamble their savings with a corrupt governmental official and when he doesn't pay him, pay them. They blackmail him. They put their classmates Safety on the line to test their products. They cut off their mother when she doesn't support their vision. And in the middle of the war they build an empire from nothing. That's not just mischief managed, it's not just genius. Because it is genius. That is ambition. And yet we don't name it that. We call it, you know, we just say, well, that's just Fred and George. We romanticize it as mischief or resistance rather than recognizing it as raw, relentless ambition. And not that far off from what Percy does. The only difference. And it's a big difference, I will grant you. But I think we are so quick to condemn Percy. But they do the same thing. But Percy aligns himself with the governmental structure that is working against the end of Voldemort. Now there are questions about whether or not he fully understands what he's signing up for but that's neither here nor there. Let's also be clear though that Fred and George are also selling their products to the government in book six. They are benefiting from this war and the fight in a meaningful, meaningful way. And I think, you know, part of the reason why we don't see what they do in the same way is because we are conditioned to only see ambition when it looks like corruption. When it looks like Draco or Voldiva or even Dumbledore. But when it looks like Fred and George, it's fun, it's a good time, it's entrepreneurial, it's boundary pushing. We'll just clean it up, we'll call it something else. And I think that that is the point. Ambition is everywhere in this story. It just gets reframed depending on who embodies it. For Slytherin's, ambition is a curse. For Gryffindor's it's bravery. For Ravenclaws it's genius. And for Hufflepuffs it's dedication. The trait itself doesn't change, but the narrative around it does. And this brings me back to Hogwarts. Because one of the reasons we associate ambition so tightly with prejudice is that Hogwarts lets it fester in an echo chamber instead of teaching that ambition can be vision, that ambition can be generative community building even Hogwarts sorts kids into.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Slytherin and then looks the other way.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

It allows pure blood supremacist ideology to circulate unchecked.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

No one ever corrects Draco when he uses slurs.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Hogwarts never challenges students when they parent.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

What they heard at home.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

It lets teachers like Snape dismiss blatant prejudice as Nothing. Hogwarts had seven years with these kids, seven years when they were young enough to unlearn bias and it chose not to intervene. And that's just not to fill your Slytherins.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

And that's a Hogwarts failure.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because at the end of the day what could have happened and what I think is really fascinating about the housing system in general is that what we know, what we experience is that Harry tells the hat no to Slytherin. And that just begs the question how many other people said no? And the only reason Harry says no is because he is conditioned before entry into Hogwarts into believing and understanding that Slytherin is a bad house. And so there is a self selection bias that exists in the housing system because if the hat takes into consideration what you want and you are coming in and have the potential to be placed in Slytherin but recognize that that might make you a pariah in your family, if you are a Weasley, for example, or might make people think that your ideological lean goes a certain way, you are predisposed to say that you don't want to do that, you don't want to be in that house. So then you are placed somewhere else. And if you are placed in that other space and your ambition doesn't change who you are doesn't change, it's simply where you are that changes. And so when we look at a Percy, when we look at a Hermione, when we look at some of these other people, it's like there is, when we look at Harry, there is a way that their determination to not be placed in Slytherin means something about what the house then looks like. Because it pretty much means that most of the people who are in Slytherin when we arrive there with Harry, Ron and Hermione are people who want to be in Slytherin. And that means that those are people who are probably legacies, people who probably have those biases already caked into their identities and now they're in an echo chamber wherein they are not going to be challenged at all because any of the people who might have challenged them have self selected out of that house. And so that when we think about the ills of the housing system, I think that one of the biggest pieces of the problem as it pertains to the Slytherin kind of reputation is the byproduct of people simply saying I don't want to be in that house. So what would Slytherin look like if Hogwarts had done its job, if ambition had been taught as vision, as possibility and creativity, and not just a place where prejudicial people with pure blood supremacist ideology go. What if Slytherin was the house of Fred and George, the house of unrelenting drive and ingenuity, rather than the house.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Of Draco and Crabbe and Goyle?

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Because ambition doesn't have to mean domination. It can just mean transformation. It doesn't have to be about supremacy. It can really be about possibility. And that's where I want to leave us with the question that we started. What could Slytherin be if ambition wasn't treated as corruption? Because ambition, again, is everywhere. The only difference is who gets permission to be ambitious without being condemned for it. And that, to me, is a real.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Reflection of Slytherin House.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

This has been.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Another episode of Critical Magic Theory.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

I'm Professor Julian Womble and if you liked today's episode. First of all, thank you. Please feel free to like, rate, subscribe and do all the things that one does where pods are cast, y'. All. We are going to have a time in the post episode chat because I know I said some things that you did not like and that's my job and so I don't have any regrets.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

But I am very excited at the prospect of what you all are going to bring to bear in that conversation.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

So do not dilly, don't dally, don't delay. After you listen to this episode or perhaps while you're listening, take some notes and meet us in the post episode chat.

[Host 1 (Critical Magic Theory Podcast)]

Also, recognize that we are going to have the Gryffindor survey that's going to be up for you this weekend. Please feel free to join us on Patreon patreon.com Criticalmagic theory follow me on social media, ProfW on TikTok and Prof. JW on Instagram.

[Host 2 (Professor Julian Womble)]

Y' all meet me in the post episode chat. Until then, be critical and stay magical, my friends. Friends. Bye.