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Critical Magic Theory: An Analytical Harry Potter Podcast
The Duplicity of Barty Crouch Jr: Radicalized Victim or Perpetual Villain?
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- [00:00]
Professor Julian Womble
Welcome to Critical Magic Theory, where we deconstruct the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Because loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julian Womble, and today we are talking about Bartimius Crouch Jr. Y'all. Last episode, we talked about his dad and what a wreck of a man he was. And now we are going to be dealing with the poor soul that had to deal with that man for the vast majority of his life. And then when he wasn't dealing with that man, he was in the band. Hashtag bars, copywritten, trademarked. You get it? And I am so excited to talk about Barty Crouch Jr. Because there's just a lot to unpack and you all gave me a lot to think about. But, you know, one of the things that is also true about Barty Crouch Jr. Is that he really does turn the Wizarding World on its head when it is revealed that he is a Death Eater. And that his father, who has been relentless in going after Death Eaters, now has to figure out what to do. What a scandal. What a mess. What chaos. And you know that we love that. And I was so fortunate enough to have a conversation with a dear friend of mine who I went to graduate school with, who was a political science professor at Boise State University, who is probably the biggest Harry Potter fan that I know, which is saying something because, like, I'm a really big one. But Professor Charlie Hunt has me beat. And Professor Charlie Hunt is also. I think I'm just gonna keep calling him Professor Charlie Hunt. He is also the host of a podcast called Scandalize, which is about political scandals. And so it felt so fitting to have him on this episode because Barty Crouch Jr. Gives us one of our big major political scandals that completely upends his father's career. And Charlie is just. You guys will hear. He's just so amazing and thoughtful in his analysis and in his critique, and he offers some really amazing insights. And so for those of you who are on the Patreon and who are chronic overthinkers or deep divers, you will be able to have the entire conversation that I have with him. But for those of you who are not, you will be so thrilled with what he brings to us in this episode, because the snippets that I chose are just Chef's kiss. And so I'm just so happy that you all get to experience Charlie and just the brilliance that he brings to bear. And if you are into political scandals, you need to check out Scandalized. You see Because I am a fan of mess, chaos, and madness. And I loved the show Scandal, and so it felt like a match made in heaven for me. And it turns out that it was. And. And so I highly recommend that you all go to wherever you're casting your pods and check it out for yourselves. You will see in this episode how good Charlie is. And you will be thanking me that I sent you to find Scandalized. Because, y'all, I mean, I'm just gonna say you're welcome in advance. Have you ever wondered what Role Barty Crouch Jr. Played in the torturing of the Longbottoms? Or whether he was always a bad person or was he radicalized and how much of his time as Fomoodie was an act? Y'all, we are getting into all of it today, and I couldn't be more excited. You all really brought it as you so often do with these survey responses. And I think that this episode is going to give us a lot of things to think about. But before we really get into the thinking, before we get into the nitty grittery, before we get. Before we get into the deep diving, we need to bop along to the theme song. So loosen up. Just loosen those shoulders up. Just roll them back, roll them forward, stretch. I am not liable if you pull something, so don't. Okay, and in three, two, one, bop.
- [04:09]
Professor Charlie Hunt
We need to talk about Harry Potter.
- [04:42]
Professor Julian Womble
I hope you danced. I want to start off by saying thank you to everyone who joined in to our post episode chat about Barty Crouch Senior. As always, it was really, really wonderful. Again, if you are interested in doing that, check out the Patreon. It's worth it. And you can join for free to join into that conversation for the past episodes, for this episode that's to come. And you're going to want to do it for this episod for sure. Because, y'all, it is gonna be wild because I feel like some of us have very strong takes and there was a lot of agreement, but there was a lot of disagreement on certain things as well. And I'm also feeling like I'm gonna be a bit chaotic for this episode. And so, you know, it's gonna be. There are gonna be some things that you're gonna want to talk about, so please feel free to do that. I want to take the time to also welcome Millerina, who joined as a chronic overthinker on Patreon and your support, and thank you all for your support. Those of you who have joined the Patreon, whether it is a paid subscription or just for the free conversation. I really appreciate it. If you are interested in joining the Patreon, whether as a free member or a paid subscriber, there is a link everywhere, okay? In my social media links on the website criticalmagictheory.com if you go to patreon.com criticalmagictheory you will find it there. If you don't follow me on social media, y'all, I am currently in the midst of being dragged within an inch of my life for a post that I made about the toxicity of Gryffindors. And so if you want to see the chaos that I brought to bear and that I am experiencing in the comment section, please feel free to follow me. This is happening on my Instagram. My handle There is Prof. JW Y'all, it's a mess. TikTok is RoffW. It's not there yet and I don't even know if I'm going to post it there because I don't know that I can deal with being dragged across two different platforms. But y'all, it is absolutely hysterical. And I personally think it proves the point that I make in the video about Gryffindors. But I digress because I cannot afford a dragging here, not with you all, okay?
- [06:58]
Professor Charlie Hunt
You all are my safe space, okay?
- [07:01]
Professor Julian Womble
So like, just anyways, go and watch the video and read the comments because.
- [07:07]
Professor Charlie Hunt
They are coming for your boy and.
- [07:09]
Professor Julian Womble
It is absolutely hysterical. I also want to take this moment to invite you to, like, rate, subscribe, follow, do all the things that one does to promote podcasts. It really does mean a lot. I want this community to grow. I am just always so excited when I see more people joining the Patreon. When I see that there are more people listening, we're getting more people, but we've got to put the word out. You know, we've got to get more people in this thing to think critically with us. So however you want to go about doing that, let's do it, because we're doing an amazing thing over here, y'all. And also before we dive into the episode, I want to say that next week's episode is going to be on Neville Longbottom, because we need some levity, we need some lightness, we need some joy. And King Neville will bring that to us because he really has no choice but to, because he's just that amazing. And it also dovetails nicely because Barty Crouch Jr. And Neville have a very interesting relationship. And so this feels like a natural flow as we continue our journey through the pure bloods of the Harry Potter series. So we're talking about Neville. Next week, I am going to be reaching out to one of the chronic overthinkers to join me in a conversation about Neville. Because it's time. And so be on the lookout, okay? Because I'm coming. It could be any of you, so just know that it's happening. All right, let's get into Barty Crouch Jr. So I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't know that I have a favorite moment, but I do have a favorite thing about Barty Crouch Jr. Particularly as he's kind of perpetrating faux Mad Eye Moody, which is, like, him and Moody are not too far off, right? Like, they're both off their rockers. But the thing that really gets me, that I really appreciate the most is how much they both hate Death Eaters, despite Barty Crouch Jr. Being one. And to me, that really does sum up so much of his character. Like, he just lives in this world of contradiction because he is a Death Eater. But he always says, there's nothing I hate more than a Death Eater who walked free. And it means so many different things. And I just love that part of getting into character for him was really not having to do much but really just kind of live his truth through the eyes and body of someone else. And he does such an amazing job at it. But I just really love this kind of disdain that he has for other Death Eaters and the extent to which that disdain is kind of where he deviates from plans. Right? Like, we see him during the Quidditch Royal cup, like, go and put up the Dark Mark and do all of these things because he's livid that these people were out here just, like, having fun and kikiing while he was in the band, rotting away and then under the imperious curse from his dad. And I really just love that character point for him because it really does show, just like one, how similar he is to his father insofar that Sirius says that Barty Crouch Sr. And Voldemort aren't that different in terms of their cruelty. And we see in this moment, right, that Barty Crouch Jr. And Mad Eye Moody are really not that different from one another on a number of dimensions and that they have this disdain for this group of people that really makes it easier for Barty Crouch Jr. To kind of perpetrate being moody. And I think that that is so fascinating and just so kind of well done as a character point. Charlie also has a very interesting moment that he thinks really, really captures the essence of who Barty Crouch Jr. Is. Let's listen in.
- [11:05]
Professor Charlie Hunt
So, Charli, I want to start with just like, a moment. It doesn't even have to be a favorite moment, because I found that that was really hard for Barty Crouch Sr. Is there a moment that is a favorite moment for you? Like what? Like, is there a situation where you're like, oh, like, this is something that, like, feels like quintessential or is like, an important, pivotal moment for us to truly understand who Barty Crouch Jr. Is as a person?
- [11:29]
C
It's hard to choose a favorite moment with this guy because, as we will talk about, I'm sure a lot of tough stuff that he is putting us all through here. So I'm sort of torn between two moments. One moment that I think captures his essence in that I think it's the worst thing that he did in a way, which is not only in participating in the torturing of the Longbottoms, but then forcing their son to watch a demonstration of the curse that he used on them in class, and then to have the gall to pull him aside afterward and try to comfort him, which in itself was just a contrived tactic to try to help Harry cheat in the tournament so he could deliver him to Voldemort. Like, it's maybe the most grossly conniving action taken in the entire series, I think. And to me, that captures all of the sort of twistedness that we end up with with this guy. And so that's the one that, like, in looking back over the book, that jumped out at me, that I didn't even necessarily make the connection the first couple times.
- [13:08]
Professor Julian Womble
When asked what word best describes Barty Crouch Jr. The top three were loyal, unhinged, and cunning. Nail meat head. Because y'all did that. I think that what is so fascinating about Barty Crouch Jr. And something that Charlie and I talked a lot about, but something that also came up in a lot of your comments, was this loyalty that he has to Voldemort. And we spent a lot of time talking about the why of that loyalty. And we'll get into some of it when we talk about whether or not we think that Barty Crouch Jr. Was a good son. And we also talked about his kind of unhingedness and the cunningness as well. And, you know, the thing that really shook me, and it's something that Charlie brought up to me in our conversation that really I had never thought about, is the fact that Somehow Barty Crouch Jr. Came out of the band with, like, his full faculties. Like, he was able to kind of put a plan together. Obviously, he and Voldemort worked together. But, you know, to be in Azkaban that long and to still kind of be unhinged, yes, but be as cunning as he was to literally play the part of Mad Eye Moody for an entire school year to help Harry Potter make his way through. Like, it takes a lot of mental fortitude to be able to do that. And even, I mean, he even says, you know, as he's kind of spilling his guts to Harry once Harry kind of realizes who he or who he's not. Rather he says, like, this was not easy.
- [14:49]
Professor Charlie Hunt
This was really, really hard.
- [14:51]
Professor Julian Womble
And we're talking about someone who had been in Azkaban for such a long time and on top of that, who had spent a considerable amount of time under the Imperious Curse. So for the vast majority of his life, his mind was not his own. He was either trapped in his mind because of the Dementors or he was trapped in the mind his father had carved out for him through the Imperious Curse. And so the fact that he was able to kind of come out from underneath all of that and be able to pull off what he did is really, really, really amazing. And I think the thing that really kind of kept him going we know from Sirius, that the reason why he was able to kind of keep his mind in Azkaban was because he knew that he was innocent. And I think, and Charlie agrees with me, which is that, you know, his loyalty to Voldemort or Body Crotch Jr. S loyalty to Voldemort probably is the thing that kept him sane. As sane as you can be. I mean, clearly he slipped. The mind was not all the way there, but he was able to keep his faculties enough to be able to pull off what he needed to pull off and to be cunning enough to be able to fool Dumbledore when Alastair Moody is apparently one of his best friends. And it wasn't until he took Harry Potter out of Dumbledore's sight that Dumbledore was like, huh, Maybe this isn't who we thought it was. And even then, I mean, If Barty Crouch Jr. Hadn't taken this moment to freaking monologue, he could have killed Harry Potter. He could have taken him back. He could have done any number of things before Dumbledore showed up, right? And the fact that he was able to fool Dumbledore speaks volumes about his acumen as, you know, an actor as someone who is able to kind of really embody another person and the discipline that it takes to take the Polyjuice Potion all that time. Y'all, this man is an absolute disaster. Yes, he is unhinged, but also, y'all, I hate to say it, but he's kind of brilliant. And I think that that's something that Voldemort would respect. When you combine it with loyalty, I don't think Voldemort would even feel threatened by it because it's so clear just how much Barty Crouch Jr. Is loyal and care about Voldemort, that he prizes that level of intellect and the acumen that it takes to be able to do all the things that Barty Crouch Jr. Did and all of these moments where he could have been caught and he wasn't. And so it's like loyalty is the kind of the gas that runs the engine and the unhingedness kind of helps him do what he does. And then the cunning. Well, that's self evident. Let's get into the arithmancy lesson. For this episode's arithmancy Lesson, we had 266 responses. And the first question is, is Barty Crouch Jr. A good person? About 94% of us said no. Okay. And 6% of us said don't know. Only 0.4% of us said yes. So we had some consensus here. Someone wrote, I don't think he's a good person and I 100% think he's a villain. People seem to give him too much grace due to his father's being a prick, but this takes away his accountability. He was literally instrumental in Voldemort's return and patiently carried out his plan to get a body for about a year. You do not do all of that without being devoted. He could have ran into and told Dumbledore of this against he was doing this against his will. Voldy didn't even have a body at this point, so he would have been relatively okay for a while. But he was so eager to be chosen and complete his task. The glee he has when Harry returns from the graveyard saying Voldy is back and literally planning to kill Harry on the spot in service of Voldemort, torturing the longbottoms, etc. He is not a good person, and I don't think my dad is mean and absent is an excuse someone else wrote. I don't think there's much debate that Junior is a bad person. He joins the dark side, tortures Muggles and magical folk alike, and kills his own Father, someone else wrote, while I put that Barty Crouch Jr. Is not a good person, I think that the matter is a little more nuanced. I can't really stand by anyone who joined Voldemort, even if they were a teenager. It's just wrong. I do think though that the way his dad treated him probably before and definitely after he was in prison really contributed to how evil and maniacal he became from the fourth book on. Like, who wouldn't go a little insane after being stuck under the Imperious Curse and house arrest for 14 years. And it is only ever alleged that he was involved in the torturing of the Longbottoms. So we don't really know if he actually did anything for Voldemort before he was imprisoned. Though the fact that he was a Death Eater makes me think that he still had bad intentions. And that was the reason I put not a good person over. Don't know. These responses really point to how complicated.
- [20:12]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Barty Crouch Jr. Is as a character.
- [20:15]
Professor Julian Womble
And as I really had to sit down and grapple with this question and I was annoyed because I felt like it should have been a question that was easy to answer. Like someone said, like this is a throwaway question, this is a simple question to answer. But I'm struggling and part of the reason why is because I'm struggling to reconcile the teen that we see in Dumbledore's memory in the Wize and Gamma who is seemingly so afraid and so scared of what's been done. And we actually like one of the other comments said we don't know what his involvement was with the Longbottoms. Now obviously any involvement is an indictment, but I just keep thinking about the similarities between a young Barty Crouch Jr. And a Draco Malfoy. And it just strikes me so much that at that age when you make these kinds of decisions, it's really difficult to recognize or to come to terms with what was an active choice on the part of the teen and what was brought about by coercion because of the power dynamics at work here. We know that Voldemort can be very, very, very messy when it comes to forcing children to do things that they may or may not want to do in order to prove their loyalty to him. And we meet Barty Crouch Jr. As an adult who is obviously outrageously loyal to Voldemort. But that loyalty also comes after he has been in Azkaban, had his brain rattled. He has been under the Imperial's curse for 14 some odd years and so There are a lot of things about that particular Barty Crouch Jr. That obviously, like, are not quite all the way there. Which isn't to say that the decisions he makes are not his own and they are bad. But I think I'm struggling to reconcile the kind of timeline between these things and all of the extraneous circumstances that have led him to this moment and to the choices that he has made. And again, I think that I agree with the first comment that says that by allowing all of these things to dictate, you know, what is true about Barty Crouch Jr. We're taking away his own accountability. And so I recognize all of the terrible things that he has done. I also recognize that many of the choices that he makes post Azkaban breakout post kind of breaking free from his father's imperious curse are also things that, you know, are not necessarily coming from someone who is completely sane. Does that absolve him? I don't know. Does it change the way that I view what he did in terms of assisting Voldemort and coming back? No. I just. I don't know, y'all. I'm struggling to kind of, like, nail this one down and saying he's absolutely a bad person. Like, I know he did bad things. And I think my struggle is I can say that adult Barty Crouch Jr. Did bad stuff and is a bad person. I feel much more comfortable saying he became that person after Azkaban after being under the imperious Curse. I feel less comfortable because we don't really have a lot of evidence about what happened and what went down when he was a teenager when he joined up in the ranks of the Death Eaters and played a part in Voldemort's or in the torturing of the Longbottoms. I don't know. I feel like if we are extending grace to Draco because of his age that I want to extend grace to the young Barty Crouch Jr. And I will not extend it to the old Barty Crouch Jr. Because he doesn't deserve it. Because he has made these choices as an adult without coercion and has the fealty and loyalty to give to Voldemort hand over fist. And so that's what I feel comfortable with.
- [23:59]
Professor Charlie Hunt
And part of me wants to just.
- [24:00]
Professor Julian Womble
Say, don't know, because obviously that's not a very definitive answer. But because I am the host and I can do whatever I want because.
- [24:06]
Professor Charlie Hunt
I'm a benevolent dictator I will say.
- [24:09]
Professor Julian Womble
That he is not a good person as an adult. And I don't know if he was a good person as a child. And that's what I feel comfortable saying. And so that's what you're gonna have to deal with. Is Barty Crouch Sr. A good son? About 75% of us said no. About 19% of us said, don't know, and about 6% of us said yes. Someone wrote, even though I feel like I should have known the question was coming, seeing it gave me a lot of feelings. Would Barty Crouch Sr. Have called his son a quote unquote, bad son? I actually think he might have if questioned. But I think that he would have called him bad because he got caught, not necessarily because of what he was doing. And so after all of this, I would say, no, he's not a good son. Someone else wrote, I think killing your own father for revenge sort of lumps you in there with being a bad son. Someone else wrote, I put. Don't know. Crouch Sr. Believed he was not a good son. But. But I think he learned a lot of the skills from his dad. He's a lot like his dad, where he puts on an impeccable act when he needs to. He may not be the son that Crouch Sr. Wanted, but he's the son Crouch Sr. Deserved. And someone else wrote, Barty Crouch Jr. Is a good son. He worked hard in school to prove his father, to prove to his father he was worthy of his love. In book four, during his madness, Barty Sr. In one of his flashbacks, is bragging about how his son got 12 owls. Clearly, Barty Crouch Jr. Is doing what he can to garner his father's love, which he never received. Furthermore, I do believe that he would have been overshadowed at the ministry by his father. Thus, he chose not to go work there. As a result, he went to the wizard who would value his strengths as a wizard. Voldemort saw his talent and treated him like a son, resulting in his dedication to the Dark Lord. In this conversation that I had with Charlie, we talked about this question, and one of the things that stood out to both of us was what this last comment alludes to, which is the kind of father son dynamic that Voldemort has with Barty Crouch Jr. Let's listen in.
- [26:40]
Professor Charlie Hunt
It's interesting that you brought up, is Barty Crouch Jr. A good son? Because, you know, obviously I asked the question thinking about Barty Crouch Sr. But when you put it the way that you just put it, it's like, well, and is he a good son to Voldemort? He the best.
- [26:58]
C
I mean, you know, one of the only who did not waver at all, like, the entire time. I mean, again, in the worst, most twisted way possible. But, like, yes, but in terms of the kind of. I mean, like, I think we're supposed to understand that Voldemort is the father that he doesn't feel he ever had. And that. And has given him all the honor and attention that his real father clearly never did and clearly instilled all, like, all of this trauma building up, sort of funneling its way into this dedication to this new father figure that really seems to sustain him.
- [27:47]
Professor Julian Womble
What stands out to me from both my conversation with Charlie and from the comments that you all put in the survey is like, y'all, I'm sorry. I think he's a good son. I think he did everything that he could do to try and appease his father. I think the 12 owls. If your parent is out here bragging about how good you are and so that he can prove to everyone how prolific his family is and the family name, then yeah, sure, did he tarnish all of that when it came out that he was a Death Eater? For sure. But we have to ask ourselves, why did you become a Death Eater in the first place? Was it because your father was absent, which is what Sirius alludes to, right? That his dad was so hell bent on becoming Minister of Magic that he really forsook everything else? Is that a word? Forsook? Anyways, you get what I'm saying? And I think that that matters here. I think that Barty Crouch Jr. If given the opportunity to feel like he was actually worthy and experience his father's love, would never have turned to Voldemort, and this would have never happened. And so, at the end of the day, Barty Crouch Jr. Did everything he could with everything he had to be a good son to his biological father. And it went unappreciated. Someone wrote in a comment on one of the videos I posted on Instagram that if you don't raise your kids, the streets will. And I told her that I was gonna say this over and over and over and over again. And I think that it is very applicable when we think about Barty Crouch Jr. If you don't raise your kids, the streets will. And in this case, the streets of Voldemort. And in this case, Voldemort took a child who was craving attention, craving validation, craving admiration, craving. And he said, I can give you all of that if you do a couple things for me. And what we see is that Barty Crouch Jr. Jumped in feet first and said, tell me where you need me to be and tell me what you want me to do. How high do I need to jump? And he had already been conditioned to do all of those things because he had been working so hard to get the validation of Barty Crouch Sr. I'm not gonna put everything that Barty Crouch Jr. Does on his father, but I do think that we would be remiss to ignore the relationship that he wanted with his father and all the hard work that he put in. Getting 12 owls is no small feat. And your father took the time to be able to brag to everybody else about it while simultaneously being absent. And again, I don't want to take away from the accountability of his actions, but I do think that if we look at his relationship with Voldemort, it just feels like a surrogate father that he had been looking for and he found it in Voldemort. Is Barty Crouch Jr. A good teacher? This was a question that I added because chaos. About 63% of us said yes, 27% of us said no, and about 10% of us said don't. No, someone wrote. I said that Barty Crouch Jr. Was a good teacher because if torn between two extremes, he did do some effective teaching and provided lessons that stuck with his students, gave them confidence, and did prepare them for the war torn world they were dealing with. I think his influence is also part of Neville's ultimate confidence gain in some ways. That being said, causing your students trauma to demonstrate a lesson is unacceptable and further proves that Dumbledore does not care about these kids at all. Who lets a teacher do the multitude of dangerous things that he does without consequence? It's wild, but that's part of the layered experience that makes the stories interesting to delve into. Someone else wrote, the question of is he a good teacher? Really stumped me. My first thought was yes, because he was able to keep the class engaged and everyone was able to learn and keep up with the material. In that sense, he was a lot more competent than other previous Defense against the Dark Arts teachers. But upon further reflection, I remembered all the ways he actively harmed students. Upsetting Neville with the Cruciatus Curse, using the imperious curse on students, transfiguring Draco. I believe that a teacher's first priority should always be their student's safety. And in the sense, and in this sense, Barty Crouch Jr. Is not really a good teacher. Someone else wrote, okay, it's super weird that I said, yes, he's a Good teacher. But hear me out. I'm looking at it purely from a pedagogical standpoint. He's a good teacher in the way that he gives hands on lessons, he's engaging, he knows the material, and he truly teaches the students how to defend themselves against the Dark Arts. Now, if you look at it from the standpoint of what he was teaching them, absolutely not.
- [32:37]
Professor Charlie Hunt
He is not a good teacher.
- [32:39]
Professor Julian Womble
Because that's traumatic and horrifying. That's why I chose this question, y'all. That's why I chose this question, because. And it was inspired by a post that I made on Instagram where I said, would you rather have Gilderoy Lockhart teach you Defense against the Dark Arts or Faux Moody? And a lot of people said they would prefer faux moody because he was a good teacher, and people learned, and they said that they wanted to be prepared for the world out there and that he was doing that. And I thought, what an interesting thing. So then I brought it to y'all, and y'all said pretty much the same thing. And it was so much fun talking to Charlie about this, because obviously we both are professors, and so we both teach. And, you know, just listen to what.
- [33:22]
Professor Charlie Hunt
We had to say about it.
- [33:23]
Professor Julian Womble
Just. Just listen.
- [33:25]
Professor Charlie Hunt
You know, I always throw in a question that's a little bit chaotic. And this. This question for this episode is, do you think that Barty Crouch Jr. Is a good teacher?
- [33:36]
C
I was hoping we'd go here.
- [33:38]
Professor Julian Womble
Yeah, we're going.
- [33:39]
C
Cause you and I are both teachers.
- [33:40]
Professor Charlie Hunt
It's true.
- [33:42]
C
And so I think it's a super complicated, chaotic question. Everyone seems to think he's a good teacher. Everyone's saying, wait till you take his class. All the things that we wish our students would say about us.
- [33:57]
Professor Charlie Hunt
I don't know about you, but I came in to say that about me.
- [34:00]
C
Yeah. And you do unforgivable curses on day one, right? Absolutely.
- [34:07]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Everyone's under the first curse, day one.
- [34:10]
C
So, yeah, it's funny because Mad Eye, not Crouch, but Mad Eye, is supposed to be a practitioner out there. It's sort of bringing in a practitioner to teach the course. And Junior, obviously, is playing this part very well. No one, even old Dumbledore, does not seem to suspect him really, until the very end. Like, I mean, this guy's teaching evals were probably sky high before he got found out, which is wild. But on the one hand, leading off with unforgivables, that's questionable, I would say. On the other hand, in terms of results, Harry, at the end of this book is able to throw off an imperious curse from Voldemort. And it's a skill he developed under this kind of like, false tutelage from this person he thought was Mad Eye Moody. And later Harry says, and he feels really weird and ambivalent about this. He says that this conversation that he had with this person he thought was Moody was the first thing that made him want to be an Auror, which is like, these are the things that our students, the conversations I always cherish with my students when they're like, your class made me want to be, you know, a member of Congress or something like that.
- [35:37]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:38]
C
You know, and like, that's all you ever want to hear as a teacher. And Harry says this about this person who almost got him killed, even knowing that. And so on the one hand, like, weird choices on the other hand, in some ways, the proof is in the pudding a little bit. I don't know. But maybe that's just Harry being a strong willed little son of a son. I don't know.
- [36:02]
Professor Julian Womble
But I think.
- [36:03]
Professor Charlie Hunt
No, I, like, pedagogically, I have some questions.
- [36:07]
C
Sure.
- [36:08]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Though, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, I'm like, is it really that different than Snape threatening to, like, poison students? I mean, comparable.
- [36:19]
C
I mean, that's. I mean, we all have different ways of motivating our students.
- [36:22]
Professor Julian Womble
It's true.
- [36:23]
Professor Charlie Hunt
That's one.
- [36:24]
Professor Julian Womble
But I do think that they walk out.
- [36:28]
Professor Charlie Hunt
I mean, like, it comes down to what you want the outcomes to be.
- [36:31]
C
Yes.
- [36:32]
Professor Charlie Hunt
And I made. I jokingly made a post about, would you rather have, like, Barty Crouch Jr. As Moody or Gilderoy Lockhart as your Defense against the Dark Arts professor? And most people said they wanted faux Moody because they're like, we're going to learn. Like, we will learn something from him. And yeah, I mean, they did.
- [36:52]
C
Then they say that. They say this later, I think in the. I think Ron says it in like a conversation with Umbridge or something where she makes a comment about how, like, I don't know, how they're way behind and Ron is like, oh, we learned, you know, that this guy last year, he turned out to be kind of out to lunch and not who he said he was. And he says, like, mind you, we learned loads. Like, and it's so funny that even after they all know who he is and that he was not Mad Eye Moody.
- [37:25]
Professor Julian Womble
Yeah.
- [37:25]
C
Like, they continue to have this reverence for the time in the classroom with him, which, I mean, leads me to believe that the real Moody must Have been. Been a good. I don't know, because. Because everybody buys it.
- [37:38]
Professor Charlie Hunt
But, yeah, it's. I mean, I think here's what I'll do. Here's my concession. I'll call him an effective teacher. And, like. Cause I do think that, you know, traumatizing your kids. I mean, there's something to be said about a little trauma. Every so often you just gotta throw it in just to, like, keep things interesting.
- [38:01]
C
Constant vigilance.
- [38:03]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Absolutely. But to subject them to it. And I think the other thing that I. That feels gross to me is the fact that, like, so much of his motivation is his own trauma. And admittedly, like, there are moments where I will bring my own personal narrative into class, but, like, on the whole, I try to not necessarily bring my own. The stuff that I'm working on, my therapist with. Into the classroom.
- [38:32]
C
Yep.
- [38:33]
Professor Charlie Hunt
And the impetus behind this entire imperious curse is that he was under it for so long, and that's what he kind of wanted them to learn. And there is obviously utility in that, as it was a big thing that a lot of Death Eaters used. But it's also interesting because it's interesting that he ultimately, like, his desire to.
- [38:59]
Professor Julian Womble
Teach kids to never be in the.
- [39:00]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Position that he was in is one of the things that ultimately saves Harry's life. Right. And thwarts his master.
- [39:08]
C
Yes, that's the part that I mean. And how can you know. But you could imagine a different version of this person trying his best to play Moody's part, but not wanting to give Harry good instruction because this is the object of this goal. Why would I try to strengthen this person?
- [39:32]
Professor Julian Womble
Right. Is Barty Crouch Jr. A good death eater? About 93% of us said yes. About 4% of us said, don't know. And around 3% of us said no. Someone wrote, yes, he is a good Death Eater. He was one of two Death Eaters who searched for Voldemort and actively facilitated him regaining a body. I also think his dedication to Voldemort is why I don't believe he's a good pureblood. Oh, we're jumping the. We'll get to that latter part. Focus on the first couple sentences. Someone else wrote, yes, he does as he's told. He escapes the ban on the DL, he resurrects Daddy V shrug emoji, 100% success rate. And another person wrote, he's obviously instrumental in bringing Voldy back. Also, I just want to say that I'm obsessed with the fact that Voldy has, like, the band become part of our lexicon, I think, you know, I do believe that part of our exclusivity as a podcast is important that we establish our own vocabulary. And one of the things that I noticed when Charlie and I were talking was he is a listener and he also had adopted some of our parlance. And I think we're doing it, y'all. We are really indoctrinating the people, and that is really what this is all about. Anyways, I digress. We're going to go back. Let's start from the beginning. Someone else wrote, he's obviously instrumental in bringing Voldy back, but he went and fumbled the bag by getting caught and kissed. Caught and kissed. Oh, my gosh. Plus, he taught Harry to throw off the imperious curse. Be so for real. That was a shoddy Death Eatermanship.
- [41:23]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Also, we.
- [41:25]
Professor Julian Womble
That's.
- [41:26]
Professor Charlie Hunt
We're taking that one, too.
- [41:27]
Professor Julian Womble
So thank you to whoever wrote Death Eatermanship, That's. We're gonna consider that snatched. I will give you credit if you name yourself and you will, you will get credit. But as for right now, I'm gonna say it was me. I'm joking. I'm kidding. But I do think that many of us bring up a really good point. I mean, when we think about what it means to be a good Death Eater, one of the things that we've often talked about, particularly when we talked about Bellatrix, when we talked about Lucius, right, Was loyalty. And we know that Barty Crouch Jr. Is as loyal as you can get when it comes to Voldemort, when it comes to Daddy V. And I think that this is really important because I think that, you know, despite what we saw in the memory, in the Wize and Gammat, like, this is a person who went with Bellatrix and some other people to go and try to find him. They wanted to find Voldemort after what happened to him when he confronted Baby Harry in that crib. And I think this tells us a very specific kind of story. The fact that after 14 years, he is, like, lifted from all of these spells and all of these feelings that are put on him by the dementors and by his father, and he dives right back into being this loyal servant. And, you know, you're really onto something when Voldemort is like, this is my loyal dude, right? Like, this is my most loyal servant. And he has a bunch of people who have declared fealty to him hand over fist. And so, yeah, I think by Voldemort's own definition and own admission, Barty Crouch Jr. Is an amazing Death Eater. He does exactly what he's meant to do without any question, without any contestation. And he goes so far as to like defy his father. And he puts himself really on the line by entering into Hogwarts as someone else. He has to put on the performance of a lifetime, like, give this man an Oscar, give him a bafta, give him something, and he's able to pull it off. And he is the reason why Voldemort not only gets his body back, but is able to imbibe the protection that Lily's sacrifice gave Harry. Like the entirety of this thing would not have happened without him. Listen, if anyone's getting award for best.
- [43:48]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Death either, it is absolutely Barty Crouch Jr. Because Bellatrix lied to Voldemort.
- [43:53]
Professor Julian Womble
Okay? Barty Crouch Jr. Would never. I'm going to combine the next two questions because they kind of tap into the same thing, but one is just a little bit more specific. The next question is, is Barty Crouch Jr. A good pure blood? This is chaos.
- [44:18]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Yes.
- [44:19]
Professor Julian Womble
About 36% of us said yes, 32% of us said no, and about 32% of us said don't know. For the Patreon exclusive question for the deep divers and chronic overthinkers, I asked, is Barty Crouch Jr. A pure blood supremacist? This is also a touch more chaotic than I was expecting. 41% of us said no, he's not a pure blood supremacist. 37% said yes and 22% said don't know. Jonathan wrote, hmm, okay. I said no, because I think he's like Bellatrix. He's like the Bellatrix of it all. It's about following Voldy, not furthering the pure blood line. Cassie wrote, I think just like all the other purebloods, being raised in a society that is designed for and gives advantages to purebloods, it's hard to believe that he doesn't have some of it ingrained in him. However, I think Barty Crouch Jr joined Voldemort not because of the ideology, but because of the biggest. It would be the biggest F you to Barty Crouch Sr. He could give as a teen and Nadia wrote, his hatred of Death Eaters who did not get caught and then did not dedicate their time to finding Voldy, speaks to his dedication to Voldemort. But I can't recall any evidence he was not a pure blood supremacist. I'm unconvinced he deserves the grace to assume that he couldn't be both. I think this is a really fascinating situation because what's clear from both the questions and what other people wrote in their comments in the actual survey is that, you know, he seems much more dedicated to Voldemort based on what we know than pure blood supremacist ideology. And Charlie and I kind of came to a similar conclusion about this. So let's just take a listen to what he and I came up with to answer this question. Both the question of whether he's a good pureblood and also whether or not.
- [46:10]
Professor Charlie Hunt
He'S a pure blood supremacist. And so to that end, do you think that Barty Crouch Jr. Is a like full out pure blood supremacist or was he like radicalized? Because he was kind of searching for that validation and then kind of.
- [46:29]
Professor Julian Womble
Really?
- [46:29]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Cause I mean like.
- [46:31]
Professor Julian Womble
And do you?
- [46:32]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Because I think I'm asking because I find it interesting because it's strange to me that he doesn't. We don't really get a sense of like him disliking Muggle Borns or you know, Half Bloods or anything like that. I mean, there really just seems to be such a strong loyalty to Voldemort in a way that's different than Bellatrix because she and Voldemort are like aligned ideologically. Barty Kraus Jr. Seems to be more just kind of down for whatever Voldemort is down for. Like whatever my dad says goes vibes. And I'm interested in like your thoughts on that.
- [47:06]
C
I think we're totally on the same page. I don't think we have a ton of evidence or really any evidence that blood status is nearly as important to him as it is for people like the Malfoys or the Lestranges. Like to me all of his sort of villainous behavior is coming from a very personal place, like the most personal place and not an ideological one. You know, at the end when he, when he, we find out who he really is and he's talking about his plan, he doesn't talk about blood status. He doesn't. When he's asking Harry like, you know, as things are unraveling, like he asks if Voldemort forgave them the other Death Eaters. He doesn't ask about blood status or all the, or how, you know, he asks about how loyal they were. He refers to Voldemort as more than a father. And I think especially because his blood status, his status as a Pure Blood is coming from a father who caused him trauma and who he loathes. And so blood like he has abandoned his blood in a lot of ways and found, you know, Voldemort's the family he chose, not the, you know, and so, and so in a way, it's not that I don't, you know, I'm, I'm not assuming that he is all about Muggle liberation or anything, but I think. But I don't get the sense that he is a good pureblood. Like if anything, I mean, and he is not the only. Like Bellatrix has her own issues with family and pure. And being a pure blood. Like this is, I mean obviously Voldemort himself does in a very literal way. And like this is something all of these Death Eaters have to deal with. Yeah, but don't deal with or try to ignore.
- [48:56]
Professor Julian Womble
Yeah.
- [48:57]
C
And for cr. For Barty Jr. Like, I don't get the sense that he even really cares about it all that much. Maybe because of this bad relationship with his pure blood father.
- [49:14]
Professor Julian Womble
Is Barty Crouch Jr. A villain? About 86% of us said yes. About 5% of us said no. And 9% of us said don't know. Someone wrote, is Barty a villain? I put yes, because I don't believe that a villain has to be a villain to many people, just a villain to one. He is a villain to Neville, like a bully is a villain to their target. Someone else wrote, he is clearly a villain and a bad man. However, it is worth stating that he is a good example of how hurt people hurt people and how trauma can create a monster if unaddressed. I sort of feel like he never had a chance. His father is also a villain. He just had enough of a working brain left over to know what side of history to stay on. And someone else wrote a villain. No, villain is a strong word and I don't assign it lightly. Barty Crouch Jr. Did bad things, but he's not a villain in my book. I think this is really interesting because I think this is something that we often talk about, particularly when we have in the past talked about characters and whether or not we think that they are heroes. And some of us have always said you can be a person who does something, who do's who do something, who does something heroic. But that doesn't necessarily make you a hero. And I think that this is something that was said about Narcissa, this is something that was said about Slughorn. And I think that in some ways this could apply to Barty Crouch Jr. I think that I can imagine a world where we could just say he's a person who has a lot of trauma and madness, who has done villainous things all in the name of getting from Voldemort what he had hoped to get from his father. In some ways, that feels like a bit of. Like a scapegoat. I think it's doing the thing that one of the earlier comments said that we shouldn't do, which is taking away his autonomy and his accountability. I think that there is a world where he is a villain. I mean, this is someone who literally plotted and planned and schemed and scammed to ensure that Harry got to that graveyard to meet Voldemort, to ultimately make sure he got a body. And what is a villain if not a person who does something nefarious but very premeditatedly? Right, That's a word that we're going to go with, because I think. I don't know that it is a word, but it is today. Okay, I'm making all kinds of rules today. And that's another one. I think that when we think about whether or not Barty Cross Jr. Is a villain, I think if we look at his dad and we can say, yeah, your father is a villain, then to me, it feels like not much of a stretch to argue that Barty Crouch Jr. Is one as well. I think that, you know, there are lots of reasons that we might feel that he isn't one, and we'll get to that in the next question. But at the end of the day, what feels true to me as it pertains to Barty Crouch Jr. Is the reality that people died because of him, because of the decisions that he made. This person bewitched Crumb to fight and almost, like, hurt Fleur Delacour. He killed his own father, like, and some of us may say, well, his dad deserved it, but that doesn't take away from the villainous nature of it. He, I mean, did some things that we liked. You know, some of us were really a big fan of, you know, Draco as a ferret and this and that. But at the end of the day, right, like, this person really brought about the return of the darkest wizard of the age. And even though we don't know the role that he played, we can assume that there was a role that he played in the torturing of Neville's parents. And then, like Charl said to then take that moment and in some ways rub it in Neville's face. And I said in another portion of our conversation, you know, no one at that point knows what happens to Neville's parents. None of the GRYFFINDORS no one knows why he reacted the way he did to the Cruciatus Curse. Harry doesn't even know because he doesn't find out later until he goes into the Pensieve. So Really, Barty Crouch Jr. Is doing this. And it is only him and Neville in that room who know what this means. And that, to me, is so nefarious and so villainous. And the justifications for the why in some ways don't change what is true. And what is true is that this is a person who is actively and purposefully engaging in villainous behavior. And what's fascinating is it's not even just villainous behavior against certain people who are fighting against Voldemort. But I mean, you could make the argument that everything that he kind of does to the Death Eaters in terms of putting up the Dark Mark, I mean, all the things to scare them, this is also like what he does to Draco. All those things are villainous. And so to say that this man is a villain, I think doesn't feel like too far of a stretch for me. I think it highlights the reality that not only do hurt people. Hurt people, but that they can hurt people and that trauma will out always. And that there are ways in which that can be done that doesn't necessarily lead to hurting others. And then there are other ways that you can take that and have it be exploited the way that Voldemort is exploiting it and have the outcomes look like kill the spare and have the outcomes look like a bewitched crumb. And, you know, I think and, and, and more than any of those things. Right. I keep forgetting, but like Mad Eye Moody, the real one is literally like balding because he's getting all his hair pulled out. No leg, no eye. In the bottom of a like Ben villain period, y'all knew that I was not gonna end this episode without a little bit more chaos. And so the Patreon exclusive question for this episode was, Is Barty Crouch Jr. A victim? So we've established that he's a villain, but is he a victim? About 25% of us said no. About 64% of us said yes, and about 10% of us said don't. No. Maria wrote, he is a victim of his father, the system and society. But being a victim doesn't justify everything you do. Alexia wrote, he was mind controlled and kept prisoner by his father for over a decade. So he's definitely a victim. But he's also a perpetrator of violence and dark magic. As others have said the two aren't mutually exclusive. I think it's a gray area that's touched on often with some of the more nuanced villains in Harry Potter. We can sympathize with certain characters for the trauma they experience, but it doesn't excuse their actions. Voldemort is often characterized as Harry's foil in this sense that they both suffered loveless, abusive childhoods. But Harry didn't become cruel in response, and Matt wrote, not by any length of the imagination. Is Barty Crouch a victim? Yes. Crouch Sr. Was a terrible father and horrible person. It's even said by Sirius that he didn't love Junior but he chose his own course of action. Draco was a victim, and in a sense, he leaned away from it and tried to break out. Did he? Anyways, Barty Crouch Jr. On the other hand, looked at what his father did and took the next step. And to a larger extreme. You know, I love the chaos of it all. A little. A little vocal for you all. I think that this is what makes everything about Barty Crouch Jr. So fascinating because he contains in himself both a victim and a villain. And I think everyone who said, you know, both can be true are right. I think that he is a villain and not just like a person who does villainous things. I think he is a villain. But I also think that, yes, he is a victim. And it's not clear to me whether or not we can really place that much of blame on him being imprisoned. But the imperious curse, because clearly, you know, whether or not we know exactly what he did with the Longbottoms, he played a part in it. And that tells us a story about at least his willingness to go along with people who are doing and behaving in this particular way. It feels important to highlight the duplicitous nature of Barty Crouch Jr. That he can contain both the truth of him being a victim both of his father and of Azkaban but also a recognition that then there were choices that were made. And maybe he didn't have a say when Voldemort returned. But Voldemort knew when he went to go get him from his father's house that this man was going to be ready to go. In the words of Chaperone, he was hot to go. And I think that that tells us a very specific kind of story as well.
- [59:06]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Right.
- [59:06]
Professor Julian Womble
Like Voldemort never questioned if the time in Azkaban, if the time under his father's control changed Barty Jr. S outlook. He assumed and was proven correct that nothing had changed. And if anything, Barty Crouch Jr. Was more than willing and ready to do whatever it was that Voldemort wanted of him. And I think that that is such a telling aspect of this character because it speaks to the reality that his victimization may have been the catalyst for all the villainy that he engaged in but it is not the reason why he stayed. It's not the reason why he remained in the kind of under the tutelage and care of Voldemort. Voldemort gave him what he wanted. But even in moments when he could have potentially, you know, not done what he did he still made those choices. And Voldemort knew that he would. And that's why he's his most loyal. Because no matter what, no matter what the Circumstance Barty Crouch Jr. Is going to show up for Voldemort in a way that none of these other people are going to do. And that tells us a story about the relationship between victimization and villainy. And there are few characters that we've discussed thus far that really give us that dynamic because even Draco, you know, was a child. And so all of the things that he did, yes, are all bad but, like, it was all under coercion because of his family. But Barty Crouch Jr. Didn't have that. And Barty Crouch Jr. Still made a conscious choice to say, yes, my lord, what is it you need? My lord? How high do you need me to jump? Whose eye do I need to steal? You know, what are we doing? And he still said, yes. And again, maybe all of that is because his father treated him bad but he still made a conscious choice at a certain point to say, I'm gonna keep doing this. And that cannot be discounted and it can't be dismissed. Now we've reached the point in the episode where I'm going to reflect. But this episode's reflection is going to be a snippet of my conversation with Charlie where we talked about the Death Eaters and just the way that we come to understand who they are. One of the themes that we've had in the Death Eaters that we've discussed thus far is that there's a lot more loyalty to Voldemort than there is to some sort of ideological lean. And Barty Cross Jr. Is really no different. But more than that, right there is this kind of need that Voldemort fills for so many of these individuals. And I think it's just fascinating to think about what that means, particularly in connection to the villain and victim dichotomy that we have presented to us with Barty Crouch Jr. So just sit back and listen to this snippet of my conversation with Charli.
- [62:22]
Professor Charlie Hunt
This conversation is really making me look at all the Death Eaters and being like, oh, wow. Like, I don't feel bad for you per se, but I definitely am looking at you like. Cause I also think of Snape. Snape is another prime example of someone who came from a home that was broken and, like, you know, riddled with abuse. And his one friend, like, kind of aligned herself with other people. And so now you have someone who is lonely and, you know, easily radicalized.
- [62:49]
Professor Julian Womble
In a desire for, I mean, power. Yes. But I think the people who want.
- [62:53]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Power, who are Death Eaters are mostly the people who, like, understand that they already have it. They just want more of it.
- [63:00]
Professor Julian Womble
Right.
- [63:01]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Like Bellatrix and like, her ilk are people who already hold a lot of, like, cachet.
- [63:06]
Professor Julian Womble
But, you know, I think for the.
- [63:08]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Other people, it's really just a desire, like you're saying, to belong, to be included, to feel seen. And Voldemort is very effective at doing.
- [63:23]
C
That for people, I think. I totally agree. Like, I think Voldemort has a knack for preying on and winning the loyalty of people who crave acceptance and love from others in their lives but cannot get it. I think Wormtail is another great example of this who is constantly seeking validation from James and Sirius and Remus is not getting it in the way that he wants and ends up, you know. And by the way, the people who get out in a way of that sort of death spile and end up making righteous choices or more righteous, you know, Snape, Narcissa, Regulus Black, in a way, they are all driven away when they love someone or something else enough to do so or find something, find the love or belonging somewhere else in a way that transcends this other route that they've taken.
- [64:25]
Professor Julian Womble
Right.
- [64:25]
C
But this immense loyalty that Barty Jr. Has to Voldemort sort of even blinds him to those who did truly love him, like his mother, like Winky, and sort of lets that side of it win. But, I mean, I feel like there's an interesting contrast to be made here with Regulus Black, someone else we don't know much about but who in his story, sort of genuinely returned creature the house elves love for him in the end. Whereas Barty Jr. Like Winky, dedicates all of the. You know, a lot of Winky's story is about being dedicated to Barty Jr. But in the end he just doesn't seem to seem to care.
- [65:11]
Professor Charlie Hunt
But I think that one thing that I think for Regulus is that he realized that in a Horcrux game like, this isn't about pure blood supremacy, this isn't about the acquisition of power. It really is just about Voldemort. And I think in that he also found this kind of delusion. And I think so did Narcissa. She's like, at the end of the day, all you care about is like none of the things that you promised us or espoused to us in terms of what we get to get out of this. You're just trying to live forever and you're trying to kill this kid for that. And I feel like once you come to that realization that the person who you put all your faith in is not who you thought they were or doesn't believe what you thought they believed, you're just much less inclined to buy in in the same way that, you know, like, you're willing to like, sacrifice yourself. Which is why we ultimately then see all of these people like disappear when Voldemort, when Harry, like, is determined to not be dead because their loyalty was kind of contingent on a lot of like Voldemort's power and his belief structure. But, you know, Bellatrix stays. Barty Crouch Jr. Would have absolutely stayed. Like, I mean they would have been.
- [66:29]
C
The last two standing.
- [66:29]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Yes.
- [66:30]
C
I mean Bellatrix was the last woman standing for him. And because their affinity was personal, was personal loyalty and not ideological, not even power based or like, what can we scrape out of this?
- [66:45]
Professor Charlie Hunt
Yeah, I think that that's a really interesting thing to think about. We haven't talked about, I think we always talked about Lucius, but Lucius loyalty is. And then Bellatrix and then Barty Crush Jr, they're the only Death Eaters we talked about so far. And I think, you know, what Bella and Junior bring to us is. Yeah, this kind of very strong interpersonal loyalty that I think stems from the desire to build a family that is not like it's the Chosen family, like you said, like this is. And, and, and being able to curate that in a way that like gives you what you want out of it in a way that you can't do with the family that you're born into.
- [67:45]
Professor Julian Womble
Y'all, we made it through this episode. I feel like I flip flopped a lot. Like, I feel like I started off one way and then ended another. And I can't tell if that's because I changed my mind about Barty Crouch Jr. Or if the duplicitous nature that he presents to us just really got the best of me. And I don't know which way is up. I don't know. I don't know. But what I do know is that this post episode chat is about to be lit because there were some takes that were taken and I know that many of us are going to have thoughts. And I also want to take the time to thank Professor Charlie Hunt for joining me in conversation. I really hope you all enjoyed his insights and his expertise on this topic. This will not be the last time that Charlie will be joining us because, like, it was just a blast. The next episode is going to be on Neville Longbottom. I am hopeful that I can be joined by one of the chronic overthinkers in a conversation about Neville. It's time for us to have some levity. So the survey will be ready for you all by, I don't know, Friday maybe. Maybe Friday or Saturday. But please bring some levity. Okay, do that. We've been talking about these depressing characters and we gotta stop. We gotta stop. This has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory. I'm Professor Julian Womble and I want to thank you all so much for listening to this episode. If you liked today's episode, first off, thank you. Please feel free to, like, rate, subscribe, do all the things where pods are cast. Please feel free to follow me on social media, on Instagram, Prof. JW and in TikTok ProfW. We're bipping, we're buffing, we're never ever stopping. Once again, y'all, I want to thank you so much for joining me for this episode. I look forward to hearing your thoughts about Neville again. The survey will be available to you all soon. Until then, be critical and stay magical, my friends. Bye.