Professor Julian Womble (0:00)

Welcome to Critical Magic Theory, where we deconstruct the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Because loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julian Womble and today is gonna be a rage fest. Today we're talking about Bartimius Crouch Sr. And y'all. I have not a single solitary, positive thing to say about this man. And from the looks of your responses on the survey, neither do you. And so we are going to have a really good time together. Loving to hate this character. I'm so excited, namely, because while I absolutely cannot stand this character, I think that there are a lot of things that he introduces to us that will make for a really good conversation for us to have. He, besides, Arthur is the first, like, high up ministry official. Like, Arthur is not high up. And we also. So we get to have a conversation about politics and the politics of his position and the way that he leverages it, which I'm excited about because, as you know, I'm a political scientist. And so this is kind of like what I do for a living. And that's exciting. I'm also really struck by just the kind of family dynamics that he exhibits and the way that he kind of operates within a specific space. It just. It leaves us a lot of room to kind of have really fun conversations and really dive into a character who we only get to meet once in the series. But doesn't he leave an impression, though? And doesn't he ruin lives? And isn't he the problem? Anyways, those are not the questions that we are meant to be asking this episode. Have you ever wondered whether Barty Crouch Sr. Was a good husband for heeding his wife's wishes and breaking Barty Crouch Jr. Out of the band? Is he responsible for Voldemort's return to his body and ultimately to power? And what Hogwarts House do you think he was sorted into, y'all? We are getting into all of it today. This character, to me, is not someone who lives in the morally gray space. This is a character who just lives in darkness, deception and error. And I can't wait to unpack that, because some of you disagree with this. Some of you have found spaces and places to find grace and compassion. And I'm so glad that you can, because I can't. And I think it's important that we as a community always have those individuals who can raise us up to a place that is not just, all the time, negative. And so I'm grateful to those of you who were able to find ways to say positive things about him. Maybe I'll find some positivity in the BoP today, right? We're gonna get loose, we're gonna bop along to the theme song, and then we're gonna dive into this son of a son. Three, two, one, let's bop. We need to talk about Har. I hope you danced. I have to first explain extend a very, very, very warm welcome to those individuals who may be joining us for the first time or who have been catching up on past episodes. And this may be the first kind of new drop that you are a part of. Hi. Welcome to this merry band. Although today won't be that merry, but welcome to a good time. I realized that based on the analytics that there are a lot of people who in this past week have been listening to different episodes. And so I just wanted to take a moment to say, hey, y'all, welcome to a good time. I also want to thank those of us who joined in the post episode chat about Horace Slughorn on Patreon. You know, I always have a good time. We all know people who are like Horace Slughorn. Maybe we don't in our personal life, but like, we've seen them on tv, you know, they exist out in the world and we are very familiar with them. And so it's fun to have a character like that who doesn't feel so sensationalized. And there is something about them that kind of resonates with us. And so I really appreciate everyone's willingness to engage in that conversation. Speaking of conversations, just this Saturday, I, along with the other chronic overthinkers, or at least some of us, got together for our monthly virtual meetup and we discussed the Hufflepuff House. If you are a chronic overthinker and you couldn't make it, it is up there for you on Patreon. The video is there. I have to confess. I have to confess something to everyone. It feels like it's important because I started off that meeting by being like, I don't want to talk about Gryffindor at all. And then I was the first one to bring up Gryffindor like some three minutes later. So it was shameful. I am sorry to those individuals who were there or who have to listen to it. Nothing against Gryffindor's, but I was trying to make a point and I failed. I failed. It was me. And so if you look at the screenshot from that particular meeting, you will see Eric, who is our residential Gryffindor, cheering. You will see me taking the blame. You will see everyone else laughing because I made rules and then I broke it. Am I Barty Crouch Sr. Oh my God, am I him making rules and breaking them? I can't even get into that because it breaks my soul. And Beyonce says that you can't do that. So we're not even going to do that. Speaking of the Patreon, I want to thank our new Chronic overthinkers and C. Mina, Rebecca, Carmen and Nadia for joining our ranks. If you are interested in joining the Patreon as a free member who gets access to exclusive survey questions and the post episode chat, or a paid subscriber who gets access to the weekly virtual meetings, exclusive survey questions and early episodes, please feel free to check it all out@patreon.com criticalmagictheory it is also in the link on my social media. It is also on the website criticalmagictheory.com it is everywhere if you want to find it. Speaking of social media, if you don't follow me on the things, it's Prof. W on TikTok and Prof. JW on Instagram. It's a good time. I post snippets from my lectures. We have a blast. So come join me there. It's so much fun. The conversation just keeps going and going and going. Patreon Social media. It's everywhere you want to be. Okay, I'm not going to say where I got that slogan from because lawsuit, but you get it. And I also want to say that I on occasion go and read the comments that are written on the podcast that are like part of the ratings. And I just want to remind you that if you like what you're listening to, and I'm assuming you're listening to it this long, you do, please feel free to go and write comments so that people can join. Tell all your friends about what we're doing here because we're having a really good time. I have to do a better job about posting about it on social media because people are like how can I take your class? And I'm like, you can't because you don't want to pay that GW tuition. But you can join this class. I'm using air quotes where we do similar work and honestly I have more fun because I don't have to teach the same kinds of things. And so anyways, it's better here. But please feel free to go and write comments and leave ratings on the podcast. It helps me. It helps us get noticed. I actually don't know how it all works, but I know that it is helpful. And so in the spirit of being helpful, unlike Barty Crouch Sr. It would be so wonderful if you would be willing to do that. And the last thing before we really dive into Barty Crouch Sr. Is that next week's episode is all about, you guessed it, Barty Crouch Jr. And I am so excited because I think that these two episodes put together are gonna really give us a solid story. There's a lot of conjecture about kind of what was going on in that Crouch household. Right. Because so much of it is hearsay. And we really never really get to see together in a meaningful, like, father, son sense. And not like the son is a sociopath who's, like, pantomiming and cosplaying literally someone else. And so I think that taking that episode and this episode and bringing them together and thinking about the story overall is gonna be just really exciting and give us a really interesting perspective on this family and these men and. And what they're all about. And so, anyways, I am so excited, and I'm also excited to really do this, dive into this son of a son, because there's a lot to unpack, there's a lot of things to discuss, and you all brought it as you often do. And so let's get into it. Originally, when I was conceptualizing this particular episode, I was like, I don't even have a favorite moment because I can't even stand this character to have a moment where I even like it. But then I thought about it some more, and I thought, like, we can't break with tradition. There's a structure to this. And so I need to suck it up and think about it. And the moment that came to me that I thought, okay, this is a moment that I actually really like, is when Barty Crouch Sr. Has, like, broken the mental confines that were placed on him by his son and by Voldemort and has made his way to Hogwarts. And his mind is addled, and he basically confesses to everything as he goes in and out of lucidity. And he confesses to, you know, what he did to Bertha. I mean, not in so many words, but he. This is the first and only time that we ever get a sense of, like, remorse from him, where he's like, I feel not bad. You know, I was stupid. And there are so many things that he. Like, regrets. And I think maybe remorse isn't the word. Maybe regrets is the word. And I like this moment because we don't really get closure. We don't get closure from his character because, like, before we know it, he is buried in the back. And so I think that this is a moment that I really like, because it's a moment where he kind of has to at least give voice to his sins in a way that is very meaningful to me because he's ruined a lot of lives. And even though we never get, like, an I'm sorry, we can see and Harry observes just how rattled he is by all of it. And I think that's the best that we're gonna get out of him. And so I appreciate this moment for that because it really resonates with me as a moment where it's like, I think this is as good as we're gonna get out of you in terms of an apology for all the things. And the reality of it is, y'all, it's not even all the things. It's just, like, some of the things. But again, at a certain point, you just realize, like, I gotta take it, because we're not gonna get anything else. Because this man, like, has been able to justify his actions and his behaviors and the ruining of other people's lives in the name of any number of things. And people tend to not apologize for things that they're not sorry for. And I don't think he was sorry for a lot of the things that happened. I think in the words of Rihanna, you know, don't tell me you're sorry. Cause you're not when you know you're only sorry you got caught. Okay, I could keep going. Cause you put on quite a show and you really had me. Anyways, you get what I'm saying? That is Rihanna's Take a Bow, by the way. It's from the early aughts, and it is a bop. So if you don't know it, I invite you to go listen to it because it's a good song. But that's neither here nor there. It really captures the essence of how I feel about Barty Cross Sr. Some of you decided to turn off the podcast right then and there, and that's okay. I don't blame you. When asked what word best describes Barty Crouch Sr. The top three responses were selfish, ruthless, and rigid. I think that these words really do encapsulate so many aspects of Barty Crouch Sr. S character because it takes such a level of selfishness to do what he did to Bertha Jorkins. I have to say, of all of his crimes, I know that he treats Winky really badly. And we are gonna talk about that. But I think that so many of you brought up Winky, and there's a lot of reasons as to why, but There were about 80 to 90 responses, and only five of us brought up Bertha Jorkins. And that's not to shame anyone for not thinking about her or bringing her up, but it is to say that I think that her character, because of the way that she's written, is one who tends to be forgotten. And I don't know what it is, but every time I read Goblet of Fire, I am heartbroken for Bertha because I think so much of her reality is one that she is a victim of this man's selfishness. She's a victim of his ruthlessness. She is a victim of his rigidity. He took her mind because she discovered a secret that he shouldn't have been keeping in the first place. And he rattled her mind and then sent her back to work as if everything was okay. He didn't even do her the service of keeping her in his office where he could keep a close watch on her. He just let her go and had people basically believe that was just some, like, ridiculously absent minded woman and then allowed her to, like, leave the country knowing that her mind was messed up because he's the one who messed it up, which ultimately resulted in her death. And I just. I mean, the level of selfishness to basically do what he did to her to begin with and then to continue the charade of, like, normalcy as if she was okay really speaks volumes about how deplorable he is. And again, we will talk about what he did to Winky, but I just think that I can't let this episode go without really, really, really spending time talking about Bertha Jorkins. Because to me, her loss is on his hands in no uncertain terms. Like, it is his fault that she ultimately died. And of all the things that we tend to think about when it comes to him, she tends to not be very high on the list. And part of that is because, like, our main characters don't even know what he did to her. And he doesn't even. He's not even the one who confesses it. It's Barty Crouch Jr. Who tells the story. And so part of me wants to spend time giving voice to the absolute desolation of Bertha's life at the hands of Barty Crouch Sr. And I think in that, we are able to see his selfishness, his ruthlessness, his rigidity, his lack of empathy, his, like, strong, strong sense of self preservation. And it just pains him out to be the person that he really is. And I think that the fact that so many people within the wizarding world were so quick to just blame Bertha for her circumstance speaks volumes about any number of things. But I can't get into that. I can't get into that because if I do, this is just going to become a rant and it's already like inching into that territory. So we're just going to quit while we're ahead. Is Barty Crouch Sr. A good person? About 89% of us said no, 8.3% of us said don't know, and about 3% of us said yes. Someone wrote, I answered no to Barty Crouch Sr. Being a good person, but I also no to him being a villain. And I'm struggling to put into words how both of those things can be true. I suppose it comes down to the fact that people can be mean without being evil. People can try their best with the information and emotions they have and still make mistakes. That doesn't make them a villain. Compared to all the other major baddies in the story, Barty Sr. Just feels like a lackluster, disappointing middle aged white man in a position of power. He's thoughtlessly unkind to those he sees as beneath him, Percy and Winky. And he's emotionally unavailable as a father in ways that enabled his son to become a real villain. But I think he thinks he's doing his best with a system he has to work with. He doesn't seem to have a grand plan to harm people or exert control over them. He's just kind of a jerk. Someone else wrote, I hate this man. I will never forgive him for throwing Sirius in jail without a trial. And if that's not bad enough, it's not even the worst thing he's done. To then go and free your child from prison is just so wildly hypocritical and an abuse of power. He's a loser. And his treatment of Winky is just diabolical. The total disregard for her well being and literally framing her for his dumb decision to let Barty Jr go to the World Cup. Like, are you actually okay? In what world did you think this was going to go well? The fact that he puts Winky through, even sitting there when she is terrified of heights for this stupid concession of letting his son watch a match when he's a dangerous criminal is just wild. And isn't it wild, y'all? I'm not going to beat around the bush here. He is not a good person and part of the reason why I feel that is because he shows so little regard for the lives of other people, other creatures, his family members. If it interrupts or has any way of altering the image that he wants projected out into the world, he will do whatever it takes. That selfishness and that ruthlessness that you brought up as words to describe him are the reason why he's not a good person. He is so focused and so hell bent on making sure that he is seen in a specific way that if anyone messes with that, he is going to ruin your life and make you and everyone else think that it's your fault. That's the other thing about this whole thing. His very presence is like a walking, talking gaslight. Like the fact that he would sit there and have ruined Bertha's memory and then basically have her be the laughingstock of the Ministry and then also be the reason why his son was at the Quidditch World cup and then blamed the house elf who he was like, you need to keep a watch on him because I'm gonna be busy and can't listen. Now, I know that Winky was the one who petitioned to let him go to the Quidditch World cup and was relentless in doing so. But here's the thing. If you can assert yourself over her the way that you do when she doesn't do what you want her to do, then you could have said no, and you didn't. And you were the one who made the ridiculous decision to say yes to her in this case. And look at what happened. And then you wanna bl. As if she has the kind of agency necessary to have been able to force you to do anything you didn't want to do. So at the end of the day, it is your fault. But you have literally blamed her, and you blamed her in front of everyone. So everyone believes that it is her fault. And then you fired her. And this is a trend for him, right? Like, he does this thing where once he has had his fill of you and he's ruined your life, he just dumps you. Yeah, y'all, it's giving bad person. There's a reason why almost 90% of us said that he was a bad person. And if I had taken the survey, we'd have bumped that percentage up because I'm 1000% with you. You all know. You know that I love chaos. And so this next question was one that I asked to all of the paid subscribers on Patreon. And the question was, did Barty Crouch Sr. Do the right thing in breaking Barty Crouch Jr. Out of the band. I know. I'm so sorry for everyone who had to answer that. I mean, well, that's not true. I'm not sorry. Oh my God. This is another moment where I'm literally just like Barty Crouch Sr. This is really getting scary. This is getting dark, it's getting dangerous. And you all better not bring this up. I don't want to see any of these references in the post episode chat. Of the individuals who answered this question, 92% said no, he did not do the right thing and 8% said yes. And that's the kind of chaos. Just all we need is a few people. Blue Velvet Pepper wrote, no, he should have worked within the ministry to make Azkaban a more humane place. Jasmine wrote, yes, he did the right thing. The ban is literal torture and no one should be in there in the first place. But Barty Crouch Sr. Breaking his son out of the ban is giving privileged man who can afford to bend the rules when they directly affect him and his family. But if anyone else did this, he would probably have had no mercy for them. The hypocrisy of this man. There it is again. Caterina wrote, I would say that him breaking his son out was the right thing to do. I know 100% I would do it if my son or any of my ex immediate families, even if I thought they were guilty. However, I think it was beyond stupid not to try and get him help and keep him locked up or how he did for years, because he clearly exacerbated the issue. Barty Crouch is partly to blame, if not fully to blame for Junior's actions. And Emma wrote, I think it's frequently claimed as an act of care or devotion towards his wife in getting Barty Crouch Jr. Out of the band. But is it really an act of care to take that son and throw him under an imperious curse under an invisible blanket for a decade? Ooh. I knew this question was gonna be chaos, which is why I asked it. And this is a really interesting thing for us to think about. One of the questions that I normally ask when it comes to parents is, are they a good father? But that felt a little bit too pedantic and I feel like you all would have so easily said, no, of course he's not a good father and I would have agreed with you. So I was like, what's the more chaotic question we can ask? And I think it is an interesting juxtaposition because on one hand he did free his son from the torment that is the Dementors. And it was at the behest of his wife and she requested him to do this. And so how do we reconcile that with. That's the next question. With the reality that he then broke out said son and then put him under an illegal curse and under the invisibility cloak for so long that it literally had adverse effects on his brain to the point where he then, as he's cosplaying Mad Eye Moody is basically putting all of the students under the imperious curse under the guise of helping them prepare to not be put under it. Like, that's trauma. And so that when we think about, like, did he actually do the right thing? I think the other question that we have to ask ourselves is the right thing for who? I mean, he might have done the right thing for himself. Did he do the right thing for his son, though? I mean, again, I think the point of, you know, yes, Azkaban is a terrible place and perhaps the recourse would have been to try and reform it so that it wouldn't be so terrible. But to take your child out of Azkaban and then put them under your control so that they can't think or move or act for themselves. I refuse to believe that that's any better than what the dementors do to anyone. And I just. It just strikes me as so awful to kind of basically say, like, I'm breaking you out, but also not. And not only am I going to do this, but, you know, I don't. This isn't going to come out right. But just go with me here in Azkaban, like, you are a prisoner in your own mind but at least it's your mind. In the Barty Crouch scenario, he's not even a prisoner in his own mind. He's a prisoner in his father's mind. Like, his dad has literally imprisoned him and is forcing him to think and behave and understand the world through the lens of his dad. And that, to me, feels worse than Azkaban. And maybe some of us will agree. Will disagree, rather, maybe some of us will agree but maybe some of us will disagree with that. But the idea that you have no control over who you are and what you think and how you behave because your dad is trying to assert himself over you is not any sort of liberation. It is a fate that I wouldn't wish on anyone. And part of me wonders, as I'm saying this the extent to which Barty Crouch Sr's choice to make to bind him this particular way is because he is so resentful of the fact that Barty Crouch Jr. Didn't do what he wanted him to do when he was a child. He didn't say the things he wanted him to say. You know, he performed the role of a good son insofar that he would gave Barty Crouch Sr. Something to brag about. But when push came to shove and he chose Voldemort over Barty Crouch Sr. I guarantee you that there was something in him that said, if I had just had more control over you, I would have been able to get you to do the things that I wanted you to do, and I would have been a minister of magic. And so when given the opportunity, he then takes it and he says, I know that you won't do what I want you to do. And so I am going to use my actual magical power and my power as an official in the ministry to get you out of the ban and put you under my control. Because if I have you under my control, then you'll be the son that I always wanted you to be. And what's more is that when Barty Crouch Jr. Is out from under his father's control, he does the exact same thing to the students. He puts them all under the imperious curse. He controls everything that is going on during the Triwizard Tournament. All we see him do is assert his control over the minds and wills of everyone who is around him. And it just is this kind of cyclical thing that happens because he is so traumatized. And this is the only way he knows how to behave and how to act and what to do. And he's literally mimicking the exact behavior of his father under the auspices of trying to keep people from being a victim like himself. And like, to me, it's just such a testament to how trauma begets trauma. It all began because he could not say no. He couldn't say no to his wife when she proposed the idea of switching them out so that he would be free. He couldn't say no to Winky when she asked whether or not Barty Crouch Jr. Could go to the Quidditch World Cup. He can't say no. And then he punishes everyone else around him for his inability to take charge in a way that he presents out into the world. And so I'm gonna say that, no, he didn't make the right choice in breaking out his son. Because if the only reason why you did it was to break out was to appease your dying wife, only then to imprison him In a different way and in some ways, get your revenge on your son. It's diabolical. And if you were going to do that, you might as well have just left him in Azkaban because what you did to him is so much worse. And he was living with that. He was aware of what you were doing and then did it to other people. So not only was your decision something that affected, like, your son, it also affected, literally, other people. And that's all on top of the fact that in doing both of these things and your inability to say no to your wife and a Winky, you brought Voldemort back. Like, talk to me about a bad decision. Geez. The chaotic hits just keep on coming. The next question is, is Barty Crouch Sr. A good husband? About 52% of us said no. 28% of us said, don't know. And 20% of us said yes. Someone else wrote, I say that he's a good husband because he agrees with his wife's plan to get their son out of prison, even though he personally doesn't want to do it. Someone else wrote, definitely a bad husband. Does he have no empathy? And if he has to pull the pull to get inside Azkaban in the first place, couldn't he have managed to get his kid out without leaving a live person behind? Of course, there's so much more. Like when his son casts the dark mark and disappears, eventually leading to Voldemort's return. Kraut Sr. Endangers everyone by not reporting a Death Eater on the run and using Winky to cover it up. Someone else wrote, answering the question about if he was a good husband was easy until I really thought about it. Yes, he upended his life and went against his judgment in order to grant his wife her dying wish, which shows his love for her. But what was their relationship before Junior went to the band? Was he attentive to his wife? I sense he was a workaholic and probably equated that with being a good husband. Admittedly, we don't get a lot of time with Barty Cross Sr. And his wife, and a lot of us only have this one moment where he acquiesces to her request to kind of determine whether or not he was a good husband. And now that we've answered that last question, I'm really torn because I think that there is something really beautiful and kind of going against your will to make your wife happy. But at the same time, I just wonder, was it even about her? Now that I think about the way that he really probably sought to control his son. And the way that he went about imprisoning him it just makes me feel like he saw this as an opportunity to really assert himself against a child that ultimately ruined his life while also giving his wife what she wanted. Because I simply cannot believe that this is what she would have wanted for her child. I simply cannot believe that she would have wanted him to be released from Azkaban only to then be put under the imperious curse and kept invisible and away from everyone and everything for a decade. And it's, in fact, that very logic that Winky uses to convince Barty Crouch Sr. To take him to the Quidditch World cup in the first place which re emphasizes, for me at least, the idea that there is no way that this is what his wife would have wanted. Mrs. Crouch was undoubtedly suffering under the delusion that her son was innocent and he should not have been in Azkaban. She believed that he should have been liberated because he shouldn't have been there in the first place but that there was no recourse that could have been done that would have been allowed for him to be removed without tarnishing her husband's reputation. So she made a sacrifice to leave herself in there and swap him out because she wanted her son to be free. And I just can't believe that someone who you believe is guilty you would then say, all right, well, like, even if he did do those terrible things to those people people who were fighting on the same side that we claim to be fighting on that it's okay for us to then, like, let him be out and be free. And there's no way that she sat there as they hatched this plan together and said, yeah, like, free our son and also put him under the imperious curse for a decade because that is actually true liberation. No, there's no way in the world that that's what she did. And he bastardized what she was saying and turned it into something that allowed him to assert himself and get his revenge on a son that made him look. Took away all the things that he had worked his entire life for. And to me, that is such a telltale of the kind of person that he was the kind of husband that he was the kind of father that he was that he would warp his wife's desire, her dying wish into something so ugly and so terrible even to a son who was admittedly not a good guy. And instead of leaving him in Azkaban, which was the other recourse you said you Know what, babe? Yeah, let's break him out. Let's do this whole thing. Let me take the. Like, let's just be generous, the love of my life and leave her in jail in Azkaban, this terrible place where she's going to die alone. Because also, as we think about whether or not he's a good husband that particular choice is one that we also should interrogate the idea of. Yeah. So she asked him to take their son out but put her in. And you said yes under the guise that because she's dying, it doesn't matter. This is your wife. And you said, you know what? Yeah, let's do it. No, it's not. That to me is also another indication of the fact that you are not a good husband. Many of our responses spoke to the reality that he did what she asked. But at the end of the day, like, as a spouse, I cannot imagine, and I am admittedly single as a Pringle and I cannot imagine in my wildest imaginations thinking, yes, you who are dying. Yes, let's go to this desolate, dark, horrific place that you do not deserve to be in. And I'm going to leave you there and instead swap you out for our son who deserved to be in a place where he was being punished. Now, is Azkaban that place? No, Azkaban is a terrible place, but for it's the only place that they have. His wife did not deserve to be there. She let alone die there. And yet he said, sure, y'all. There's something about it that just makes me cringe even more than I was cringing before when I think about it through that lens. Not the lens of, oh, he acquiesced to her request but the fact that that acquiescence was to leave his dying wife in a place that she did not deserve to be. All alone with dementors, with her darkest thoughts, with all of the pain that she must have been in and she didn't even get to really see her son. And then to die with the belief that your husband did the right thing. Only then for him to turn around and do what he did. He didn't care about his wife. There, I said it. Take it up with me in the Patreon chat. He didn't care about his wife because for a number of reasons, if he did, this would not have been the end result. Is Barty Crouch a good ministry official? About 73% of us said no. About 19% of us said yes. And 8% of us said don't know. Someone wrote I answered that he was a good ministry official because I postulate that he was likely like Percy when he was younger, a hard worker that took his role at the Ministry seriously. He may not have actually moved the Ministry forward but he tried to ensure that it operated effectively. Someone else wrote, he's a dedicated ministry official, but good, up to a sense, would be upholding the law for someone so concerned about law and order and reputation. He flouts and bends the law to serve himself frequently and lacks his protections. That kept a good man out of Azkaban. One more person wrote, Crouch doesn't abide by the Ministry's laws but keeps the picture of being a good man and employee of he doesn't accept his own sentence for his son and gets him out of Azkaban. This sets up Voldemort to be able to rise again. He knows what he did was a, quote, stupid thing. But Crouch acts too late to save the situation. He is not a good ministry official. For me, when I think about this question the thing I had to really think about is what is the Ministry's purpose and what is it for? And I think that when we think and look at the Ministry of Magic as, like, an organization, so much of what Barty Crouch does fits. We see Cornelius Fudge bend over backwards, change the rules. He literally at one point says as he's sitting as the leader of the Wize and the Minister of Magic that rules can be changed because Harry is making statements that he simply does not like and he wants him defamed. We see Umbridge doing the exact same thing when she becomes High Inquisitor of Hogwarts and she's changing the rules to benefit what she wants done and what she doesn't want done. We see Arthur do it when he changes the rules about flying cars or Muggle artifacts that can be bewitched so that he can create a loophole so that he has a flying car and it doesn't break the rules. The Ministry of Magic is literally an organization that is prefaced on the idea that as long as Muggles don't find out what we're up to magically, we don't really care about the rest. So when we look at what Barty Crouch Sr. Does so much of it is in line with the Ministry. And I think that if we take that reality and allow that to be the way that we understand whether or not he's good or bad, I think we see that he is good. I mean, look, we also see Rufus Scrimgeour, who was supposed to Be like a good minister of magic. We see him try to get Harry to become a mascot for the ministry even though no one ever apologized for the way that they treated him when Fudge was running the show. There are so many aspects. I mean, Dolores Umbridge sent a dementor to Little Winging to attack Harry and no one said anything about it. I mean, the Ministry of Magic is in and of itself a sham. And a lot of the people who work there don't believe that the rules are real. They all operate from a space of privilege and power and the desire for it and they ebb and flow with however their power can be used in ways that benefit them. And Barty Crouch Jr. Is no different. And I think that that is such an important thing to consider because in that way, I think that Barty Crouch Sr. Is a good ministry official. He doesn't do the things that we would want him to do, but relative to other people, he's very good at what he does. His assertion and his abuse of power seems to fit right in with literally everyone else. I mean, look at Ludo Bagman. Look at Dumbledore. Uh, oh, I may have gone too far. But what we can see is that the notion of rules is really hard for a group of people who can wave their wands and change the circumstances of pretty much anything. And Barty Crouch Sr. Is no different. He's no different in this regard. And I think that, yes, we do see him change the rules and we do see him do all of these things and we do see him break his son out of Azkaban. But part of the reason why he does all of those things is because he knows he can. And he's not alone in that. He is very much in line with literally so many of the other people that we meet from the ministry. I mean, when we meet Mad Eye Moody, who is really Junior, Arthur Weasley and Amos Diggory are literally in cahoots to try to figure out how to, like, get Moody out of the scrape that he's in. They are changing the rules left and right. And so there seems to be this kind of understanding within the ministry. And we've not really spent a lot of time talking about the ministry as an organization as, like, a governmental body. But really the whole purpose, as far as I can tell of the ministry is just to make sure that Muggles don't find out about magic and everything else doesn't matter, and they do what they want. And to me, that means that Senior is a good ministry official because he's simply meeting the benchmark that has been set by all of these other people, including his boss, the Minister of Magic, who literally is just willing and able and ready to change rules whenever he sees fit and just withhold information based on his own discretion. And all of those things are things that I believe we see exhibited by Senior. And it is disconcerting because he is a governmental official, and it is crazy that we then see him, you know, use an unforgivable curse on his child. But then again, Dolores Umbridge was ready to use Crucio on kids to get answers after she had already dosed kids illegally with Veritaserum. So that when we think about what the ministry and its officials get up to, it is very much in line with the rest of his colleagues. And so for me, I would say that he is a good ministry official because the ministry is, in and of itself is an absolute disaster of an organization and a governmental body. Barty Crouch Sr. Is the first character that we've discussed so far on the podcast Whose House we don't know. And so one of the Patreon Exclusive questions that I asked every member on Patreon was, what house did they think he was in when he was at Hogwarts? About 2% said Gryffindor, 9% said Hufflepuff, 43% said Slytherin, and 46% said Ravenclaw. Sierra wrote, I went with Ravenclaw. I think he does have to have some intelligence in order to pull off the warped crap that he pulled off to use those spells for as long as he did and create a memory charm as strong as he did. That messed up Bertha so bad. The reason I don't think he's a Slytherin is because I feel like he wouldn't have gotten to the position he's in at the Ministry if he was. I feel like he somehow would have been stopped because he came from that house. Carmen wrote, I think he's the Ravenclaw type with great ambition for himself. He seemed like someone who felt himself right and smart, and everyone else is merely collateral. He'd do well in either house. But Ravenclaw would be poetic justice because for as smart and capable as they are, he was not empathetic enough nor able to see the evil man his son was becoming. Magical Girl in Training wrote, he can be very brash when he believes he's right. He also has an air of, I'm right, you're wrong, so shut up. Which is very Gryffindor to me. Sarah wrote Maybe a controversial take, but I think Hufflepuff, because there's definite loyalty there, just to his ideology and the ministry. And maybe his wife Eve wrote, I think his hardline stance during the First Wizarding War was because he was trying to compensate for his history as a Slytherin, and his demotion in the aftermath was because he couldn't shake off the stigma of it combined with his son's role as a Death Eater. It's funny, because when I wrote this question, I really did not have an answer in mind. And I asked a lot of people and I asked my students, and I thought really hard about it. And I am actually loathe to say this because I am a Slytherin, but I think I'm torn. I think I'm torn because I think on one hand, I think his ambition is obviously something that really matters to him. And I think that he is a person who is really willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that he presents a very good faith to the outside world. It's very Lucious if I think too hard about it, which is the point of the podcast, so go with me. But I also could see the Ravenclaw. I do think, though, that Slytherin wins out for me only because I think one of the big detractors for me was he's making all of these decisions that really do mess with his reputation and have the potential to ruin everything, Right? Like, I mean, breaking Junior out of Azkaban and switching his wife out is aggressive. But I also then remembered that one of the things that we've talked a lot about Slytherin House, both in the podcast, but also in the Chronic Overthinkers meetup, when we discussed Slytherin House, was that family is a really big part of the way that they understand their role as Slytherins, and that no matter what their ambitions are, no matter what their goals are, that family is a really big part of this. I mean, we see it with Bellatrix, we talked a lot about, you know, the whole Spinners End chapter. We see it with Lucius, we see it with Narcissa. And so it was that. That was gonna give me a little bit of pause about thinking about him as a Slytherin. But the more I thought about it, the more I said, yeah. And then as this episode has progressed, I'm like, well, he wasn't really even that concerned about his family to begin with. He was really just upset with his son for ruining his chances of becoming Minister of Magic by being a Death Eater. And I Just think, it's not even the evil things that make me think this, right? I don't think of evil when I think of Slytherin. I think especially not for someone like Barty Crouch who, you know, was of a pre Voldemort generation. So, like we talked about for Slughorn in the last episode his understanding of what it means to be Slytherin is basically just social climbing. And he does that, and he does it really, really well. But also, one of the things that I think is true is that, you know, what we also noticed with Slughorn was that he was really reticent to allow any or anything to get in the way of his reputation. And I believe that that is something that is also true for Senior. He is someone who does not want you to make him look bad. And when you do, he punishes you. Whether it be Winky and him, you know, firing her for all intents and purposes or freeing her or his son, who, you know, he really did punish by putting them under that imperious curse for a decade. There is so much to be said about, you know, what happens when you stand in the way of a Slytherin's ambition and their goals. And, you know, as a Slytherin, that resonates with me. Now, would I go as far as we've seen some of these other people go? No. But I can understand the impetus and I can understand the kind of goal and the like selfish understanding that they have about the fact that they're like, no, but you ruined this for me and now you have to pay the price because I've worked so hard to curate a very specific image of myself and now you've messed it up because you didn't do what I wanted you to do. And there are aspects of every house that we can find. You know, as I read through the comments, right, like everyone found Hufflepuff, they found Ravenclaw, they found Gryffindor, they found those houses in him. But I think when push comes to shove, his loyalty to himself it just feels so much like Lucius in a lot of ways that I couldn't shake as much as I wanted to. I couldn't shake the idea that he was undoubtedly a Slytherin because I think that Slytherins are outrageously intelligent. And I think that the way that he went about asserting himself and making sure that no one found out is outrageously cunning. And again, like the magic that he used is not only difficult, but it's all very surreptitious. It's all very kind of Cloak and Dagger. And the fact that he does this thing, like I've talked about throughout the episode where he's just like, oh, you know, I'm gonna do this to you and then I'm gonna send you back out and just let everyone else think that you're just insane is outrageously Slytherin to me. It's just like the gaslighting of the highest order. And that feels very much on brand for him. And it feels very much on brand for a lot of people in my house. So as loathe as I am to say it, I think he was probably in Slytherin house. Is Barty Crouch a good pure blood? About 32% of us said no. 33% of us said, don't know, and 35% of us said yes. Someone wrote, I define a good pureblood as someone who fits into a society where purebloods stand above everyone else and feel entitled to that status. Crouch is a great pureblood. He sees himself as above the law as shown with his behavior towards his son. He is arrogant, which he shows by not even knowing Percy's name. And he looks down on other ministry officials like Ludo Bagman, which we find out through Percy. Even though he breaks the law, he still acts like he thinks he is better than others. Someone else wrote, I'm not sure about whether he's a good pureblood. Other than his treatment of Winky, I don't remember any specific bigotry. He seems to be very interested in upholding the idea of the Ministry's image and his personal image. The Ministry as an organization does uphold pureblood supremacy just through systemic racism. But Barty Crouch Sr. Is not a Death Eater. We don't see that kind of blatant bigotry that we see from someone like Lucius Malfoy. I know that you don't have to support Voldemort to support Pure Blood supremacy but he does hold his Death Eater son accountable. These are really interesting points, right? Like the way that we understand how Senior goes about really, really, really asserting himself against Death Eaters. Like really going against them. I think, though, what's really fascinating and taps back into what I've talked about in other episodes is that Voldemort is not the end all be all of Pure blood supremacy. And neither are the Death Eaters, right? So many Death Eaters may be pureblood supremacist but the pure blood supremacist structure is what created Voldemort. It's what created people like Bellatrix. It's what created Purists, but they are not the end all, be all. And so being against Voldemort, being anti Voldemort, being anti Death Eater does not mean that he is anti Pure Blood supremacy. He may appreciate the benefits and the privileges that they afford him and still be anti Voldemort. I also do think, though, that we get a sense of who he is as a person and what he believes in based on the way that he treats Winky. I think that, you know, many people brought up his treatment of Winky in their comments and I think that that is a really good point. And I've kind of reserved my comments on that particular relationship until now because to me it embodies so much of what it means to not only be a pureblood supremacist, but a wizard supremacist. Right? The fact that he in private allowed himself to be swayed by Winky only to then blame her for his mistake in saying yes speaks volumes about the fact that he is always looking for a scapegoat and it is always someone who he believes to be beneath him. And no one would ever doubt what happened with Winky if he said that it happened the way that he believes it did. Right? No one questioned how Winky got Harry's wand. No one questioned why she was sitting up in the box by herself. She is his slave and he uses that knowledge and he uses her positionality and he uses his superiority over her to subjugate her in more ways than one. It's more than just putting her up there because she's afraid of heights, right? I mean, in some ways that is such a massive power play, but it is. I want you to use your magic to bind my son to you. My, like Death Eater son. My son who was part of a group of people who tortured two people into insanity. I want you to use your magic, which is for all intents and purposes only really allowed to be used if a wizard says that they can. You're not allowed to be able to use wands because we don't want you using your magic in other ways other than what we have sanctioned. And there is so much about that that reeks of a superiority complex and a recognition of oneself as simply being better. And so that when we look at his relationship with Winky, I think we do get a sense of who he is and what he believes. And I don't know, maybe he isn't a Pure Blood supremacist, but he is certainly a supremacist when it comes to the hierarchy between Magical people and creatures. And I don't think it's that far a cry for us to believe that he is someone who would hold some beliefs about his. His status as a pure blood person. And there are a lot of reasons why we might believe this. And I think, you know, there are also a lot of nuances to it because, you know, he treats Percy so terribly because he just thinks that he's more important than Percy. And so maybe this isn't pure blood supremacy. Maybe it's just an overall superiority complex. But one thing's for certain, two things for sure. The way that he treats Winky tells us such a very specific story about how he views himself, how he views other creatures. I think the comments that I read also spoke to the way that he treats other people. I just mentioned Percy, the way that he talks about Ludo Bagman. You know, just this sense of I am better than everyone. And that to me is only really achievable when you're at the top of the social hierarchy to have that level of belief in your superiority. There are lots of people who are half bloods and Muggle borns who believe themselves to be better. But he operates from a space of like. I know this isn't a guessing game. I'm not trying to prove myself to you. I know for a fact that I am better than you. And the more I talk about this and the more I think about it, the more I realize just how similar Lucius and Barty Crouch Sr. Are. Because they both have that air, they both have that sense. They both have that desire to be better than everyone else and make sure that everyone knows that they're better than you. They both have the desire to have a very specific kind of reputation, that it's kind of anchored and founded on the notion of their pure bloodedness. And they both have these relationships with their house elves that are basically just that superiority made manifest. The way that they treat other people is also out outrageously similar. And so it is really interesting because they both operate from this very similar space. And that also re emphasizes to me the idea that he is definitely a pure blood supremacist. The only difference is, is that he is operating from a space of I can be a pure blood supremacist and not want to follow Voldemort because it is not politically expedient to do that. And I don't believe in that particular ideological lean. But again, pure blood supremacy is not the same thing as kind of being pro Voldemort. And that, I think, is a really meaningful distinction because I think we can hold the similarities between him and Lucius in conversation with one another while also acknowledging a meaningful difference in that one is pro Voldemort and one is not. But that does not mean that one is pro pureblood and one is not. They can both be pro pureblood and I think that that's probably the case. Case is Barty Crouch Sr. A villain? About 64% of us said yes, 24% of us said no and 12% of us said don't know. Someone wrote. He is completely convinced that he is the hand of justice, that he is doing the right thing at all times despite 100% being a villain, especially in regards to swapping out his wife and son in the ban. He made the wrong choice not only because he knew full well his son wasn't rehabilitated and couldn't be trusted, but also because he was willing to let his wife spend her last days with weeks months in the worst place on earth, someone else wrote. He is the biggest hypocrite in the entire series next to Pureblood's rule. JK I'm not even a pureblood Voldy. He is abusive, manipulative, selfish and he deserved what he got. But as a plot device, he's the girl that I love to hate. He is yet another example of how hatred won't get you far and in fact it will get you dead. Now that's a word someone else wrote. I almost put I don't know for whether or not he was a villain, but the truth is I don't think he was malicious in any of his decisions. Yes, he acted hastily in firing Winky and was beyond irresponsible for allowing Junior to attend the World cup, among other things. But I don't think that makes him a villain. It more makes him someone that is trying to cover his tracks for one monumentally poor decision. I know I already talked about her, but let's have a quick chat about Bertha Jorkins because y'all, there's malicious intent, there's premeditation, and then there is also the absolute fact that he allowed her to re enter the world as if nothing had happened to her and did nothing to protect her. Like I don't know that I could have forgiven if he had, like, I don't know, kept her in his office or, you know, made it so that she didn't need to go to work at all or whatever. But the fact that he didn't do anything, that he just completely demolished her mind and then let her back out into the world knowing that it was bad, but didn't care because it was basically like, you know, he was still protected. That's malicious, that's villainous because it's the thing that ultimately cost her her life. And yes, did he make some really stupid, ill advised decisions? Absolutely. But the reality of the situation is, is that making those decisions is one thing. It's another thing to then go around and like ruin people's lives, their livelihood and just destroy everything about a person because you made bad decisions. And those bad decisions ultimately then led to the rise of Voldemort. It ultimately led to him being able to get a body. And obviously those were not the intentions of Barty Crouch Sr. When he made these decisions. But it's, I think one of the big lessons that I've learned, just as I've worked through a lot of your comments and thought through this as I've recorded this episode, is the power of know. No. He could have and should have said no to Winky. He could have and should have said no to his wife. But he didn't. And not only did he not do that, he then is making everyone else pay for his crimes. He is making everyone pay for his poor decision making and that is costing people their lives. He ruined Bertha Jorkin's life. Even before she ended up dead, he ruined her life. And to me, that is unforgivable that Bertha had to pay for his crimes, for simply being at the wrong place at the wrong time. And then to go even further, he used the power and the position that he was in to cover the whole thing up and make her look like the fool. The same thing that he did with Winky when he blamed her for his son and then fired her as opposed to keeping her on as his house elf. Like, I don't think anyone would have cared. He was Barty Crouch Sr. But he was so personally attacked and he felt so probably anxious and scared that people were gonna figure out what was going on and that there was someone over there in the woods and all the things were going on. So he took it out on someone who knew, who he knew couldn't fight back. Villainous. The idea that he, all the things that he did, every single one of them, doesn't make him a villain. But the things that he did to Bertha, in my opinion, I don't care if he's covering up. He ruined a woman's life because he could. In the same way that Lucius Malfoy dropped that diary into Ginny's book basket because he knew that. That she would use it and he could and he did. He ruined her life because he could. And to me, there's nothing more villainous than that reality. And I will never, ever, ever forgive him for that, because I don't. I mean, I don't think Bertha deserved it. I know she didn't deserve it. And the fact that he was so okay with it, like, so okay with it to the point where he just let her go off and didn't even send anybody out to look for her until much later when he probably realized, like, oh, she has a secret and if she's gone too long, it's possible that my secret could get out through her. Yeah, something is amiss and it's villainous. Hashtag bars. We've now reached the moment in the episode where I reflect on my thoughts and your thoughts as they pertain to Barty Crouch Senior. One of the things that really stood out to me in your comments about him in particular and also just in my reflections as we've been kind of going through the different questions that were on the survey and on the Patreon, is the distance between intention and outcome. So one of the things that many of us brought up in our discussion of Barty Crouch Sr. Is that so much of what he did was based on a single mistake that he made and everything else was him trying to clean up that mistake. And I think that that pretty much sums him up as a character. So, like, when we think about the fact that he decided that he wanted to go full tilt against the Death Eaters during the first Wizarding War and he wanted to use unforgivable curses. And on one hand, you can recognize that as being, like, a good thing, right? Because it might have been effective. It led to the death and capture of many Death Eaters. On the other hand, though, it suggests that the ruthlessness that you all brought up as your words to describe him was a good thing, right? Like, it led to a good outcome and that his intentions were good because he was bringing down Voldemort, he was bringing down Voldemort's followers, and so that it was effective, right? So there was a good outcome, a good intention which equals effectiveness. But at the same time, that level of ruthlessness unlocked something in him. And we see him leverage that ruthlessness against all of these other people who don't deserve it and who are not in the position to be able to fight back against him in that way. One of the things that also really struck me as I've been kind of Working with you all and reading your comments is how minimal the distance is between good and evil when power is at play. So, you know, Barty Crouch Sr. Is just a very powerful ministry official who has the ability to leverage everything that he's been able to amass during his time in the ministry without any questions. And everyone just kind of believes him and gives him the benefit of the doubt. And that is something that assists with the usage of these in these illegal curses. And, you know, I've just now just had a thought. Thanks adhd. Because I'm like, right, of course he would use Imperious against his son. He was using it against Death Eaters before and it had good outcomes, you know, quote unquote, according to sources, right? Like he brought down Death Eaters. I just said it. Right. And so he doesn't necessarily see the unforgivable curses as unforgivable. If the outcomes look a certain way and he doesn't see his actions as being problematic. If the outcomes are good, if the ends justify the means, he is okay with whatever he has to do. And that idea explains so much, right? Like, his intentions in his mind are always good and sometimes they're selfish. But at the end of the day, in his mind, he's doing it to protect people. He's doing it to protect himself. And this mentality makes him probably one of the most dangerous people in these books because nothing that he does is ever bad in his mind. Everything is justified. As long as he believes that his intentions are noble, he is willing to do whatever it takes. He is willing to strike down whoever he has to. He is willing to move and shake and use whatever he has at his disposal to make sure that whatever ends he wants to meet are met and met on his terms. And if he can convince himself that these things are right, he will do them without a second thought or a backwards glance, no matter the problem, no matter the cost. And that is scary to me. And okay, this is going to be a bit of a hot take, but it also reminds me of Dumbledore. It is giving very much the greater good. It is giving very much as long as we get to where we need to be. In the end, it is okay if it means that people are safe if we have a few casualties along the way. That's just the price of war. That's the price of entry when it comes to maintaining a civil society. And I think we see like, this kind of mentality is something that, again, is not necessarily unique to him, but it's in this Quest for Power, where everyone is riding this line between what is good and what is evil and what is right and what is wrong. And as long as they are smart enough to be able to convince themselves that what they've done is correct, they are willing to stand by it. And if you are not, then you better get out of the way, because if you get in their way, they will strike you down. They will use you for fodder. They do not care. And it is something that I think is so fascinating because we see so many of the men in these books have this mentality and they're on both sides of the kind of. Of good and evil spectrum and lots of spaces in between. And I think that what is so striking about Barty Crouch Sr. In particular, is that he is someone who believes that he is doing good. And he doesn't care about the cost. As long as he feels good about what he's done, he doesn't care about what he has to lose. He doesn't care about any of that. As long as he is able to believe that what he has done is good, he will stand by it. Ten toes down, feet on the ground, no problem whatsoever. And what really, really, really like, kind of arrests me as I think about this is how terrifying that premise is and how terrifying it is when there are people out in the world who hold the belief that what they are doing is right no matter what. And that, like, it doesn't matter who is lost in the midst of it all if they believe that they are correct. And I was joking with the chronic Overthinkers the other day about how much I love being right. There's a line to that, though. I think that many of us listening love to be right, but I think that there's a critical line and there is a space where it's like, I will not be right if it comes at the expense of, like, someone else's life. And I think that what strikes me about a lot of people in these books, and Barty Crouch Sr. Is one of those individuals, is that there are people who simply don't care and they would rather be right than be just. This has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory. I'm Professor Julian Womble. Thank you so much for listening. If you like what you heard, please feel free to like, Rate, Subscribe, Follow do all the things where pods are cast. Next episode is going to be about Barty Crouch Jr. The survey is going to be in the episode notes as well as, as well as the Patreon and on the website, so please feel free to find it and share your thoughts. One second, I gotta dance a little bit. If you'd like to continue this conversation, please feel free to join us on Patreon for our post episode chat. You can follow me on Instagram @Prof.JW on TikTok RothW. Again, thank you so much for listening. And until the next time, be critical magical and stay magical my friends. Bye.