← Critical Role & Sagas of Sundry
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- [00:01]
Shopify Representative
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- [01:34]
Ivan Van Norman
Get into your body's vitals with the Vitals app on Apple Watch. The Vitals app tracks key overnight metrics so you can spot changes in your health before you feel them. The Vitals app ON Apple Watch iPhone XS are later required. The Vitals app is for wellness purposes only and not for medical use.
- [02:07]
Dan Casey
Greetings adventurers and welcome back to Question Answers, the show where we talk to all manner of awesome people from around the gaming world. I'm Dan Casey and today we have a very special guest joining me here in the Conversation Dungeon. Now you've heard his mellifluous to spinning yarns about all manner of terrifying tales right here on Geek and Sundry and elsewhere across the World Wide web. If you look at your gaming shelf, you probably have something there that he helped bring into this world through companies like Hunters Entertainment and Darrington Press. Like maybe a little game called Daggerheart. Folks, please welcome Ivan Van Norman. Ivan, thank you so much for being here.
- [02:42]
Ivan Van Norman
Hey man, that's great. I'm gonna have to transcribe that and put that in like a biography somewhere. That was impressive. Man, look, I just.
- [02:51]
Dan Casey
If people don't toot their own horns enough, I used to play the trumpet, so allow me to toot away on your behalf.
- [02:57]
Ivan Van Norman
I am so bad at doing it myself. I will gladly, like, you know, tie a rope around our legs forever and just keep it around to toot. Toot all day, sir.
- [03:07]
Dan Casey
Yeah, I'll just take one of those like longhorns they used to have in medieval halls and, you know, just announce your presence. Just reading out his LinkedIn profile.
- [03:18]
Ivan Van Norman
Brilliant. Oh, man. To hear a medieval tone with LinkedIn would be. Actually, there's a skit. There has to be a skit.
- [03:24]
Dan Casey
There definitely is. Yes. Someone out there has this market cornered.
- [03:28]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah. Well, thanks, Stan. I appreciate you having me. It's been a hot minute. I enjoy all of our lovely conversations, whenever we get to have them at various cons across the world, all the time. And it's good to be able to talk games with you a little bit.
- [03:39]
Dan Casey
No, it's always a distinct pleasure to get to spend time with you talking about games. And today we're going to talk about games gaming the act of Play. Now, you folks have a very exciting release that just came out. We're going to talk about that later on, Daggerheart. But first, I want to take things all the way back. You know, a new TTRPG has entered the world. But, Ivan, when did you first get into the world of tabletop role playing games, man?
- [04:04]
Ivan Van Norman
This is the question, right? That is. That is here at the moment. I, like many people in the entertainment industry and there's a. To be fair, there is a lot of correlations between, like, trying to find the space and what has become a hobby. And then when that becomes. And this is a term someone gave me the other day, and I'm holding onto it. But when it turns from a hobby to a jobby. Right.
- [04:26]
Dan Casey
Oh, boy.
- [04:27]
Ivan Van Norman
Oh, I know, right? That term getting thrown.
- [04:30]
Dan Casey
Yeah.
- [04:31]
Ivan Van Norman
But like so many people, I came in with kind of like a dream and a passion and a, like, not knowing what to do, but I'm just going to do it. Kind of an attitude. So I think 15 years ago this year, I had graduated college with a bunch of nerds that I played D and D with. We were literally in a fraternity that played D and D. That would kind of tell you, like, how nerdy it was. But we had graduated. We were all in film school. We were all trying to, like, find our little niche in life. The writer strike had just happened, right?
- [05:09]
Dan Casey
Oh, yeah.
- [05:10]
Ivan Van Norman
2007, 2008.
- [05:12]
Dan Casey
Wow. Time is a Flat circle.
- [05:16]
Ivan Van Norman
But we were, we were all out trying to find work. And of course, because we're trying to find work, we have a lot of time in our hand. And I had a buddy who was, who was making games and was doing it, but we were kind of just playing his home brew for fun and we were kind of trying it out and I had this moment where we were playing the game. I'm like, man, this is fun. Like, this is cool. Like, should we make it? Should we try to make it? And we all kind of like wishy washy about it because we didn't know what. We'd never printed a book before. None of us had done this really. But then I started to do that thing you do when you're in. When you've learned a lot about marketing and when you've learned a lot about, like, small businesses stuff is you do research, right? Like, does this thing exist in the world already? And found out that, lo and behold, it did not. No one had made the game that we were thinking about. And this is, this is the original Outbreak Undead, which was a zombie survival simulation rpg. And at that time, the only other big zombie game that was out at the world was All Flesh Must Be Eaten from Eden Studios. And at that time, when we were looking at it, they had been out of print of the game for a couple of years. So we were like, wow, this is, this is a thing. And at that time, Max Brooks with like, the Zombie Survival Guide was, was like, hot. The remake of dawn of the Dead was out, so everyone was, was talking about their zombie survival plan. Like, that was a, that was a party conversation back then. So I, this is before Kickstarter. So I took out a loan. I took out a loan and we paid for a booth at Gen Con. Entrepreneurs Alley was, was the first year Entrepreneurs Alley existed as a concept. And so they were really trying out this new idea where they were giving discounted booth rates for people who had just started their business that year. And, you know, it kind of all just came together. And I distinctly remember being in the room with the two guys that I did the game with, Christopher De La Rosa and Robert Watts is where I told them. I'm like, hey guys, I put the deposit down for our booth at Gen Con. So this game has to come out in August. And from that point point forward, we had a deadline and we made it. We barely made it, but we made it. And that was the first year that I went to Gen Con. It was the first year I sold the game. And thankfully People liked it and they paid cash, Dan. Because it was really hard to do. It was before even the apps were really good at taking credit card information. Square and all that other stuff was still just an expensive person thing. Yes, right.
- [08:12]
Dan Casey
The iPhone was a relatively new concept.
- [08:15]
Ivan Van Norman
I was taking cards and going.
- [08:19]
Dan Casey
Make a facsimile in triplicates so that I.
- [08:22]
Ivan Van Norman
Could run it later, like in the night. And that's what we did. It's like we did the booth for 10 hours and then I entered in card information the entire night. And that was my first Gen con. Right. So, but it just showed because we were all so excited about making this idea become a reality. And I had such great support from our community who was excited for us to do this thing. And the big difference was is that, you know, we, we kind of captured a zeitgeist moment in which people were really interested in, in that kind of play. Right. And that's a huge part of game design now. And it has been for the entertainment industry so much about making a good game. It's also about identifying what makes the game unique and good. And two, is it serving a marketplace? Is it serving an audience who's interested in that kind of play? Or more, even more importantly, are you doing something unique that people didn't even realize that they would be excited about? Right. And that doesn't always translate to gimmicks. There's plenty of gimmicks out there. But it's like, it's that like feeling in the facilitation of play that is so important when you are bringing a new game into the world. Right?
- [09:35]
Dan Casey
Yeah. And I love that idea about the facilitation of play because one thing I love about tabletop role playing games in particular, but you could extend that to board gaming. And tabletop gaming in general is by and large, it is a communal act. You're not doing something just by yourself. I know there are many amazing single player games out there, but you are coming together with your friends, your family, your community to do something and take time to pursue this act of play, which is so. It's just like the first thing to get yeeted off of Maslow's hierarchy of needs into the sun.
- [10:13]
Ivan Van Norman
Oh, you wanna talk about like a luxury market, right? Uh huh.
- [10:16]
Dan Casey
Oh, free time.
- [10:17]
Ivan Van Norman
The barrier of entry for RPGs is also so high in comparison to like hobbies. Every once in a while I take a big step back and I'm like, wow, what we are asking players to do is kind of incredible, right? Like if You're a football fan, right? Or soccer or cricket, any of that. When you become a fan of that game, you learn the rules once, right? And then you have a common lexicon with all those people who enjoy that game with you, and you are able to have that conversation, and that is your hobby, right? The players are different, the circumstances are different. You know, it's oftentimes a big tug of war with the small details that make a difference from game to game. But, man, when you tell someone to play a TTRPG or even a board game, you have to learn a unique set of rules every single time you sit down to play a new game, right?
- [11:11]
Dan Casey
And there's. There's definitely, like, a strain of folks that just feel so. It feels so anathema to them that, like, what do you mean? There's. How many pages is this rulebook? What do I have to do that? Why are there so many phases? But once you get people over that hump, I feel like there's a whole world of experiences just waiting for them. But it is definitely a challenging thing to do. What's. I mean, I'm curious, going back to the beginning, when you're talking about something like Outbreak Undead, what was the biggest challenge in translating your passion and experience as sort of like player and storyteller into something that felt like a viable gameplay experience?
- [11:51]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah. You know, and back then, it wasn't. It was more like a gut feeling than it is. Like, it's. It's a lot easier to put it into, like, an ethos or put terms to it now. But back then, when we were doing it, it was truly about, like, what's fun, what is fun about this experience? And, like, saying it again. But, like, nowadays you can call it things like, well, what's the game loop? Right? Like, what is the core experience you want your players to feel? But back then, for us, it was, okay, how do you simulate a zombie survival scenario? And what would make that cool? Oh, you can play yourself as a character. Okay, well, how do we do that? Oh, we can do a personality test that gives you, like, your four core stats when you're done. Oh, that's. This feels fun. All right. Now, when I'm running games, it is literally about putting the player in that moment to experience that thing that people latch onto when they are looking into that genre. For zombie survival, it is, what would I do? How would I do it? And what are the challenges that I would experience being in my own world? So, dude, like, the first cons we ran with this game it was literally, you hear gunshots go off. What do you do? And that was the beginning of a session. Right. Like you're at the con, what's happening? But that was the story that people were interested in telling their version of it. Right. And storytelling is so wide in general, and you can really do anything with any type of game. But the thing that is, in my opinion, so cool about role playing games is that there is still a little bit of context into what you are going to experience or want to experience. A lot of systems, let me try to put a little more like contrast around that. Right. Like, it's. Any game system has the capacity to do a lot of different genres, but I found that games do very well when they want to pick the genre or the experience they want the player to feel and do that really well. Right. So when you play the board game root, it's a 4x game about critters. So you are immersed in the world because of the art, but the play feels like a crunchier, very dynamic control expand kind of gameplay. With Outbreak Undead, you have to make a zombie survival simulation. And so the game games you want to run are mostly centered around those kind of stories. When you play Alice is Missing, you want to have this feeling of you have this close group of friends who are all in a text thread together. And it's that weird experience when you're in a text thread and everyone's talking over each other, but you're still trying to find out what's going on and that's replicating that experience. When you're playing Kids on Bikes, it's a Goonies, literally Kids on Bike genre, where you're trying to do strange adventures in small towns. You know, if kids on Bikes tried to do everything, like just the core system, like there are things like teens in space and kids on brooms and some other expansions on it, but they add those mechanics in order to make that genre feel more visceral. Right. And DD's been around for so long that people have hacked that thing to make whatever they want. And that shows the legacy and tenacity of players who want to just. They want to make stories they want to make, right?
- [15:32]
Dan Casey
Yeah. I mean, it's this medium for. It's like an engine for infinite storytelling. And you can make it whatever you want. But we're lucky right now in that DD is not the only item on the menu. If you want a specific flavor or, or setting or system, there might be an option out there for you. And if not, there are more Tools in place to make it a viable reality.
- [15:59]
Ivan Van Norman
So many good things, Dan. And it's so crazy. Cause the deeper and deeper you dive into it and it's just like anything else. Like any other hobby. The deeper and deeper you dive into it, the more nuanced it becomes and the more you're like. Palette sounds like such a Somalia way of talking about board games.
- [16:16]
Dan Casey
But it's like, please stop eating those dice, sir.
- [16:19]
Ivan Van Norman
I'm sorry. Sorry. Wingspan. They are not your tiny little chocolate eggs that you think they are. Right.
- [16:28]
Dan Casey
They're crunchier than I expected.
- [16:30]
Ivan Van Norman
They're kind of stuck in there. Right. But it's true. The more you play, the more you experience it, the more you kind of see these subtleties between things that help again reinforce that style of play. Right. That's. That just is so great. When you are out there and you want to do a map making game. A quiet year. Perfect. Right. Like you want to explore how language works in storytelling dialect. Right. And none of these play necessarily like every other game, but they all have a shared DNA of the experience that they're trying to do when they're trying to get players to. To sit down and tell a story. Right?
- [17:14]
Dan Casey
100%.
- [17:15]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah.
- [17:16]
Dan Casey
Now I'm curious as well. Going back to. We were talking about sort of like some things you've taken away. What would you say is the biggest thing you've taken away from putting out something like Outbreak Undead as you went forward in your publishing career?
- [17:30]
Ivan Van Norman
The big thing. It's so crazy because there was this. It was 10 years or so, Dan, of just like nights and weekends. Like this was what we put our extra time into. And for me, a huge portion of it was every little job I worked that I did in one lily pad hop in my career down the road is everything I took. I applied it back into making games. Right. And finding out how to make better games and bring them out into the world. And for me, it became very clear my calling. It became clear very quickly that my calling was to bring the people together and help facilitate the creating of it. Right. I found out very quickly that like, it requires me to really be locked in a room with zero distractions for me to be a game designer. And that's very hard just to operate in the world we are in now with so many things outside of it. Right?
- [18:33]
Dan Casey
Yeah. Almost impossible. Unless you happen to find a cabin in the woods somewhere.
- [18:37]
Ivan Van Norman
Exactly. Right, right. And the time to be able to go into that cabin for as long as it takes. Right. So I don't think it's impossible. But I have found that it is. That everything I've done, whether it's like, how to make a good. How to make a good Kickstarter video to, like, what's the right graphics you need to make in order to make a Kickstarter sing, Right? What are the offerings you want to make without accidentally creating all of these ghost costs or these hidden costs that are going to sink the business model down the road? Right? Like what. What is over designing and what is under designing when it comes to trying to again, create, like, that experience that you want people to play, they have all come from not only, like, learning out in the wide world what those things are, but then applying them into. Into, you know, the. The. The hobby of making games.
- [19:36]
Dan Casey
Yeah.
- [19:37]
Ivan Van Norman
Right. So that's a very vague way of saying, Dan, Everything.
- [19:41]
Dan Casey
Of course, it's all. It's game design is iterative, and it's. You take these iterations with you to the next one.
- [19:49]
Ivan Van Norman
It's still small business, dude. At the end of the day, like, everyone's making games, but it's so. It's so hard because creatives are really good at being creative. Right? But like an artist, like a sculptor, like a. Like anyone else in the world who is making a creative thing, sometimes it's really hard to take that step back and be like, okay, well, now. Now that I've made the thing, how do I. How do I bring it out into the world? Right? Like, not everyone was Picasso can be Picasso and. And like, just literally be prolific with their art everywhere and be a public figure in addition to doing the work they want to do. Right. You have to have people who can talk about it and make it available.
- [20:33]
Dan Casey
And help the trains run on time, connect the dots. You need someone to help unite everything. You need Madame Webb. Her web connects us all.
- [20:43]
Ivan Van Norman
There's an old saying that, like, I don't. And it's not an old saying, but it's a thing I am frequent in saying. It's just like, there's a lot of great. For every Spielberg out there that's making something amazing, there's a Kathleen Kennedy executing that vision. Right.
- [20:57]
Dan Casey
I love that. That's 100% very true. Well, to sort of unite some of the things we've been talking about so far. You know, talking about the process of helping creatives execute their vision, but also you need to be able to identify what creativity is worth pursuing in a wider setting of where art meets commerce. So I'm curious for you, Ivan, are there. You know, we've Talked about D and D. Are there other games that have been sort of like revelatory or helped shape your creative palette when it comes to identifying things that resonate with you or games that really stuck with you over your career, both as a publisher and just as someone who enjoys playing them?
- [21:42]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah, that's a really good question. I'm inspired, honestly, every day as I'm constantly seeing things come out into the marketplace and seeing what people are latching on to and what is making them excited. I think the mo. I think I'll give you the most recent one, right. I think the most recent one that I was shocked and delighted to see, grasp the attention of the world and find a really passionate and engaging audience in which to show, like, hey, this matters, right? Like, people are in interested to. This was shadowdark.
- [22:18]
Dan Casey
Oh, yeah.
- [22:18]
Ivan Van Norman
Right. I. I'll be honest, it's like there was a part of me that understood that there was a group of people who really were that old school cool and really enjoyed that, like, very heavy agency style of play, you know, where a pike and a halberd have very distinct rules, mechanics around it. Right. And, you know, I didn't know how much that audience was growing just from my perspective and from the stuff I was reading and just the, the areas that I was engaging with on the regular. But man, when that Shadow Dark campaign hit, I was like, hell yeah. Hell yeah. Like, not only are you doing these really great things that are bringing that like, old school cool vibe and feeling back into the marketplace, but you're doing these, these, you know, these updates that really make it, that are acknowledging kind of the growth that storytelling and role playing games have had over the last couple of decades. And people are responding to that and they're putting their money down and they're saying, I want to play that. I want to do a classic dungeon crawl with a torch that goes out in a legitimate hour so that I can see that moment with my friends when they're like, oh, our torch went out. And understand that that's a cool moment that everyone can share at the table. Right.
- [23:39]
Dan Casey
100%. I love when people get excited about a unique mechanic like that. It brings to mind. For me, one of my favorite gaming experiences was actually with you. It was the first time I got to play at a table with you for ten candles. Oh, that's right. I had never played before.
- [23:55]
Ivan Van Norman
That's right.
- [23:56]
Dan Casey
And I found obviously we didn't use actual candles because we were on a set and there's certain rules and regulations. But when I'VE played since we've used candles and it's such a fascinating and like visceral mechanic, like an actual time limiting thing. And just adds that, that level of tactility, you know, we didn't end up.
- [24:15]
Ivan Van Norman
Getting to do on that show either. Dan is. We didn't end up getting to burn our. Oh, yeah, like hopes and things like that.
- [24:22]
Dan Casey
Yeah. Just off camera, the fire marshal was frowning and just like putting his axe in his hand. Like, you better not. Don't even think about it.
- [24:31]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah. Because he's. Yeah, we have an east Coast.
- [24:33]
Dan Casey
Exactly. We imported him.
- [24:37]
Ivan Van Norman
Let's talk. I want to talk about that a little bit more because you totally reminded me about that and that was such like a great sign off for like my time doing all the hosting work there and making games. You had never played before. How was that? What was that like for you?
- [24:51]
Dan Casey
Oh, it was a delight. I love a TTRPG with a high level of lethality or the capability for it. And it was such a fascinating premise where, hey, you know, going into this, everyone is going to die. I, I, it was, it really resonated with my sensibilities. I loved the creepiness of the setting and I just loved the experience to get to play a system that was so different than what I had played before. In particular, the idea of shared narration rights. That to me is very cool because as I mentioned before, I love the act of play coming together with your friends. What I love about TTRPGs in particular, it is shared communal storytelling. You are improvising a story together that goes off in unexpected and wonderful ways. And I thought that was just such a unique experience that I kept bringing it up to people for months. I was like, you have to play this game. You have to check it out. It's so cool. And it's one of those things where when I introduce someone to it, they're like, yeah, this is really inventive and really cool. And then it made me, it prompted me to seek out more RPGs in a way that maybe I wasn't before. Maybe I was feeling a bit more comfortable playing D and D. And like, it also harkened back to one of my earliest experiences playing Cyberpunk 2020 back in middle school when my guy just got absolutely smoked and I'm like, oh, wow. I didn't realize that could happen. That's pretty neat.
- [26:16]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah. That's the big difference between the power fantasy. Right. Which is what you're talking about right there. Right. And then leaning into the like, oh, consequences. Right. And Leaning into consequences and yeah, I mean, ten candles especially is one of those ones that really invites the players to really, you know, color. Color outside of the lines. Right. When it comes to making. Making the story their own. And if my brain. I'm no spoil. I mean, it's been out a long time.
- [26:45]
Dan Casey
Yes.
- [26:46]
Ivan Van Norman
Deal with it. Spoilers. Right. But if my memory corrects me like you did, you. You basically, you. You jumped in front of a bullet. Metaphorically, I think.
- [26:57]
Dan Casey
Yes, I jumped in front of a. I jumped in front of a bullet and then a couple more bullets jumped into me.
- [27:04]
Ivan Van Norman
Yes. And it was great. It was just a. It was such a cool moment. And we see so many people that show.
- [27:11]
Dan Casey
40 casualties over the course of that series. That was the promise delivered upon. And I just find that super compelling. It's like if you know everyone's gonna die, you don't know how it's gonna happen. And we have to make it matter. You have to make it count. You have to do something interesting with that.
- [27:29]
Ivan Van Norman
Make the deaths better. And what we talked about, too. I'm sorry, I want to do. Because this is always a big part of this as well, too. My favorite deaths were actually the ones that didn't matter. Or at least in the story.
- [27:41]
Dan Casey
There were such.
- [27:42]
Ivan Van Norman
The quiet deaths. They were the ones that were like, uncelebrated. You didn't have this epic moment where you went out with explosions and things behind you. It was like, oh, and you drowned. Yeah, right. And it's. And it's just. It's like, oh. Because that. That, like tears at the emotions, which is, in my opinion, like what makes horror games. When a horror game is run well, it is always about invoking those emotions. And sometimes those meaningless deaths have so much emotion behind it.
- [28:11]
Dan Casey
Yes. Because in this. In this world we have agreed upon to create together, life goes on, even if your death is meaningless. And it's very cool. It's a very cool thing to think about.
- [28:22]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah, it's a thing. It's weird to be giddy about it, but it's so exciting when those moments happen. So, you know.
- [28:28]
Dan Casey
Well, speaking of cool moments and things to be excited about, I do want to talk about the big, exciting thing that as of this recording, is pretty new in this world, but has been long heralded, and that is Daggerheart. So you have been helping to lead the charge over at Darrington Press, the arm of critical role that is creating all sorts of wonderful gaming experiences for the people out there who maybe don't know yet if they in fact still don't know somehow. What is Daggerheart?
- [28:57]
Ivan Van Norman
I mean, Daggerheart, in talking a little bit, what we were saying earlier about collaborative games in which players really put their effort into the stories, like Daggerheart is a fantasy role playing game that really takes that to heart. Right. It wants its players to contribute to the story in a way that is really meaningful and it feels, feels like a conversation back and forth between the players and the GM in order to make something magnificent. And it's very story focused, but at the same time it has a lot of great elements and dynamic natures around combat that feel both comfortable and familiar for players who are used to that, like, you know, high agency style of combat. Right.
- [29:45]
Dan Casey
I'm very excited to explore this with my gaming group at home. But I know that there's some differences to other systems out there. But what in your opinion sets this apart from other tabletop role playing games, especially in the fantasy space that others might have played?
- [30:01]
Ivan Van Norman
I mean, for me, I think the big one is the fact that we have broken a lot of the. We've broken the core mechanic down into a 2D12 system. So rather than rolling a single dice and then adding a modifier in order to, to check against a target number, we're doing that with two D12s, which gives you, for all the math nerds out there, it gives you kind of a more stable bell curve in which to play with versus a flat percentage across the board with a D20. And it also, because of that, we added another element onto it that is called hope and fear. And hope and fear allow this great thing where you, depending on which die is the highest. When you make this check, you can either give like a beneficial reward to players if you roll with hope, or you can give a resource called fear to the GMs that they can use in either to like challenge or raise the stakes or essentially affect players later on down the road if they so wish.
- [31:02]
Dan Casey
I love that. I love the sort of push and pull of like, okay, do I really need to push myself now? It reminds me a little bit of something I love about Blades in the Dark, for example, which is taking stress to alter the consequences of what's going to happen. I love the 2D12 as well. I feel like the D12, it's the die that gets the least amount of shine in other role playing games. How did the conversation arise to say, you know what, we want to give the D12 some love for a change?
- [31:32]
Ivan Van Norman
Think about it. It's like if you, if you are looking at a full Polyhedral set. Right. You have a D2 coin flip, very rarely used. Right. But like D2, D4, D6, D8, D10, D12, D20. Right. So there's a huge gap between the D12 and the D20 that, like, you know, statistically there's not a lot of room for maneuvering inside of there. But you. Daggerheart is a heroic game. It is a heroic game that celebrates its players. And we found that with the 2D12, not only are you allowing them to generate this resource that allows them to do these cool things, whether it's activating like card abilities or getting additional bonus modifiers with their experience, but it also gives them those dice support players. Mathematically, it is more likely to do well for them than not because it's instead of that, like, harsh, like, single percentage line that the D20 often does. And that's countered by this physical representation of challenges that can also generate 50% of the time with fear. Right. And the thing that came out of that that's also so beautiful is it's. It allows this, like, very storytelling focused mechanic that is in a lot of other games where you have this like, succeed with consequences or fail with succeed with consequences, Fail with consequences. And it's this succeed with fear or succeed with hope or fail with fear and fail with hope. Where with your failing with hope, you may not exactly execute what you wanted, but you're still going to be able to move the story forward with a hope and be able to have a positive impact inside of it as well too. So rather than this binary success, failure thing, which we were all but familiar to and we've been doing it for years, it gives it a little bit more of a spectrum where players have more room for interpretation on how things are going and no matter what. And the designers are very fond of saying this, and it's a really great way of saying it's like every dice move moves the story forward.
- [33:46]
Dan Casey
Cool, right? Yeah, there's. I mean, in other games, there's nothing worse than feeling like you squandered your turn. I like the idea of we were talking about this with ten candles as well. Consequences aren't just a punishment. They move the story forward and they.
- [34:04]
Ivan Van Norman
Move the story forward. You. You failed to pick the lock. Well, did you fail to pick the lock or did it open? But it made such a big, big loud sound that guards heard it nearby or, you know, did you see another way out? But it's now being covered by like a defense system. Like, there's always a way to Move the story forward. And if you, as the dm, have the permission basically to say, okay, well, this is a success with hope. So it went splendidly. Well, this was a success with fear. So there's got to be a consequence in here, right? Oh, you failed with hope. Okay, well, how can I move the story along but. But not say there's a direct correlation between what you did and what you didn't do. Right. And. Or did you fail with fear, which is just like, okay, that not only did you not do it, but then.
- [34:52]
Dan Casey
Something bad happens, it didn't happen, and something worse will happen later, potentially.
- [34:56]
Ivan Van Norman
Right. You know, but that. That's no different than rolling a one on a. Yeah, 20. Right.
- [35:01]
Dan Casey
No, I get it.
- [35:02]
Ivan Van Norman
You know, this case, though, it's just there's. There's a higher percentage of any of these four things happening in a session. Right.
- [35:11]
Dan Casey
I'm someone who, obviously, as, like an end user, I'm always thrilled to see the final product, but I'm also someone that is very curious about the creative process and how the proverbial fantasy sausage is made.
- [35:23]
Ivan Van Norman
Right.
- [35:24]
Dan Casey
How long, like, give me a sense of, like, what is the sort of, like, timescale of how Daggerheart went from. From concept to completion? Like, how long does it take to go from an inkling of an idea to the book that we see before us?
- [35:39]
Ivan Van Norman
This is a game years in the making. And I think a lot of people, it's challenging because I think it's hard sometime to realize that iterative playtesting and design, it's a marathon, right. In order to get it done. So we've been talking about a game like Daggerheart ever since Darrington Press was formed, right. We didn't know what the game was, we didn't know what it meant, we didn't know where it was going to go yet. But we. We knew as soon as I started Darrington Press that, like, we were open to something like this happening. Right? And so when the right game came along, which was Spencer's design for, For. For Daggerheart, like, it was just like. I remember looking at it and being like, here it is, here it is. We found it. So now we just need to. Now we just need to cook. We just need to let it cook. And it was a long journey with a lot of different elements being put into place in order to make it happen. And there is usually in game design, there's this moment where you're working on the rules as much as you possibly can, and then you get to the point where you execute the book. And when you have something that is just a loose concept, it can take a long time to get the game to the point where you're like, okay, we can commission art now.
- [37:01]
Dan Casey
Yeah.
- [37:01]
Ivan Van Norman
Right. And even then, though, you still want to do a little bit of things like art and concept design and things like that. So, you know, what tone and what mode and what thing. And it all is just an investment is what it is. And it's. Yeah. Years in the making. That's the long way of saying it took a lot of people a lot of time to make this game.
- [37:23]
Dan Casey
Well, it's very exciting that it is finally out in the world. I'm wondering, though, you mentioned part of this iterative process. What's one of the biggest ways it changed over the course of that iterative playtesting?
- [37:38]
Ivan Van Norman
Sure. I mean, even in its core mechanics, there are just some things that were tweaked literally even up from the open playtest, leading into the clothes play test, leading into the final delivery. Like, the one we like to talk about all the time is Armor. Right. Like, armor was just. We knew we needed something. We know we wanted, like, one other lever. And when I talk to Spencer about this stuff all the time, it's like, well, how many knobs do we want to add to the game? Like, how many things do we want people to track when they're actively playing the game? And we knew we wanted one more knob or leverage outside of hit points, but we also didn't want it to become, like a raw number deduction, super heavy math thing. So there was so many different versions of what armor looked like that could serve both of those masters at the same time. And when it finally did land on what it was, it was like, it was such a ding, ding, ding, ding, ding moment in order to, like, finally make that work. But. But, yeah, I mean, like, there was a lot more tokens. At some point, cards were literally on the character sheet and were, like, placed into them on the mat. So it kind of felt like you were, you know, building your character by putting cards on the sheet, you know, and then of course, you're like, you actually play that, and you're like, wow, these cards are just slipping off the sheet the whole time. Right. And there's so many things. This is why iterative playtesting is so important, is because on the design table in the Excel sheet, you can make a lot of choices and things might work on paper, but as soon as you get them to the table and people start getting their sticky hands on it, you Start to see how survivable those, those mechanics are. Right?
- [39:22]
Dan Casey
Yeah. Because you can think that you've created a perfect system and then players will just find like Kool Aid man through the wall and figure out a whole way to break it open.
- [39:32]
Ivan Van Norman
I mean, that's. That is one of the reasons, and if I'm honest, one of the biggest luxuries that we had, and I'll be honest, a lot of people in the industry don't get, is the sheer amount of play testing we were able to do. Right. When you're a small publisher or when you're a new creator, your play testing is limited, usually by the time that you can invest into running the game. And it's even harder because you, you know, when you're in the forest, you only see the trees. Right. And so it. Even being able to extend beyond of having something, what I told new designers all the time, I'm like, have somebody else run your game. Right? Like, have someone else play your game and observe them or hand them a sheet. Like, you know, your game is starting to get to a place where it's okay and you can start doing it. When you can hand your rules to another person and have them teach it to your. To a group of players instead of yourself, that's the first major milestone that you really have to break when it comes to finding a balance in your. In your game design. Right. So we were just able to do so much of it and so many people participated inside of the open beta, which was just magnificent. That, like, that allowed the heat into the furnace to be able to forge a much better weapon.
- [40:55]
Dan Casey
Yeah. I mean, it's a real. It's a real testament to the incredible critter community. And like, all of these people that really want to help be a part of this world that it feels like they get a small part in shaping together. There's usually not that level of interactivity between sort of like publisher, creator and the customer. But I think that's particularly cool, that sense of community that's grown there.
- [41:18]
Ivan Van Norman
And even the, even, like, even outside of the critter community, all the people who are like. And they're the, they're the people who. They're the sommeliers. They're the ones who have played 2025 systems and they can tell the vintage at this point, and they can tell what's being pulled from what. And those people, I mean, they're amazing too, because they're the ones who. They're the ones who are going to. They're the ones who are going to help a game go from good to great and last longer than its original release, if that makes any sense.
- [41:49]
Dan Casey
Oh, 100. Absolutely. You need those people that can understand how a lot of these systems interact in a way that maybe you didn't consider because you're so close to it.
- [42:00]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah. And no matter what you will, there will always be something you didn't see.
- [42:04]
Dan Casey
Of course. And that's what errata and second editions are for.
- [42:09]
Ivan Van Norman
Yep.
- [42:10]
Dan Casey
So we talked a bit about armor and how that. That sounds like it was maybe the toughest nut to crack for you.
- [42:15]
Ivan Van Norman
That was a tough nut to crack. Yeah. I think as things were falling into place and a vision was being made, that was the one that was constantly elusive. And besides just the general balancing of the domains, which is also. That is just a. That is a. I like to say that's a math problem that just requires a computer to sometimes a human computer to sit down at 4 Fix. Right.
- [42:36]
Dan Casey
Yeah. Just got to get a Mentat import them from Arrakis to just run the.
- [42:40]
Ivan Van Norman
Numbers, give them a bunch of spice cake and let them go.
- [42:43]
Dan Casey
Exactly. Let them go to town. Is there a mechanic or aspect of Daggerheart of which you are proudest or most thrilled that you folks were able to incorporate into this?
- [42:53]
Ivan Van Norman
Oh, fear. 100%. Fear is not a new concept. Right. By any stretch of the imagination. Like for me, the first version I think of seeing that was like the West End Star wars system with the light side and dark side play in the game. But even when we were even Outbreak had a Risk mechanic in which players generated risk when they went out the door and the GM spent risk in order to make encounters more dangerous or flat out put obstacles in front of people. Right. But the way that I think fear is executed in a storytelling focused game like Daggerheart is so slick. It's so slick and it really. I keep saying these things, but like, it really does give GMs permission to do something and validate that choice because they have a resource in which to lean into it. Right. And at the same time, it's. It doesn't feel punitive. You know what I mean? Because a lot of. A lot of those mechanics at times can feel punitive. Like.
- [43:59]
Dan Casey
Sure.
- [44:00]
Ivan Van Norman
This much in order to like.
- [44:01]
Dan Casey
It's us versus the dm.
- [44:03]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah. Right. I'm just doing all this in order to like double the hit points and kill you one shot. Right. It's. It doesn't feel like that at all. Because what. What fear really wants to do and what it's really Its objective is to constantly feel like that. That is a back and forth conversation. Like the players get something, the GM gets something. And it really, I think you said it earlier, it's like, it's that tug of war that really makes you feel like that you're on a dance floor moving people back and forth. Rather than this like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna camp in your base and spawn, kill you. Right. Kind of an attitude that can just come when you give, when you give, you know, power and resources to people in those positions. Right.
- [44:50]
Dan Casey
So for people who are getting ready to maybe run their first campaign of Daggerheart or play their first sessions, they want to get their gaming group to try it out. Are there any pieces of advice or quick tips you would give them or just thoughts you would give them as they sit down to play for the first time or maybe embark on this journey?
- [45:09]
Ivan Van Norman
I highly recommend that you check out a new show that we just launched called get yout Sheet Together, which is a perfectly charming and sincere way in order to like, lay out everything that is Daggerheart. And you know, so many people are visual learners and not necessarily auditory learners. Just like the great Tabletop era. Sometimes showing people how to play is, is the most valuable way in order to help communicate that. So I would check out get yout Sheet Together. It's a great way to learn Daggerheart in an episodic couple minutes at a time situation. If you're curious about Daggerheart, but you don't want to throw down the monies yet in order to invest inside of it, we do have our system resource document that's on our website that is part of our like Community Gaming License that you can check out and see again, what are the core rules of this game and see if it's something that plays to your strength and it's something you're interested in. And if you're doing it for the first time, you can and you like again, it's one of those like, oh, you know, do I want to get my free introductory course? Startplaying Games is hosting Daggerheart sessions constantly online. So if you're willing to throw down a little bit of money to be at a seat and have Dagger Heart be played to you as a player so you can experience what the again, what the gameplay feels like, those are all great ways to get started.
- [46:42]
Dan Casey
Fantastic. And if people also want to see the cast play, you folks are also launching Age of umbra, I think. Eight episodes.
- [46:48]
Ivan Van Norman
Eight episodes. And it's a grim, dark world that Mr. Mercer put together and we have that frame. It's fun. The art's great. It's cool.
- [47:00]
Dan Casey
Yeah. When I saw the trailer, I was like, I'm in. Let's go.
- [47:04]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah, let's do this. All right. I'm ready to see Matt run. Dark Souls, let's go.
- [47:09]
Dan Casey
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, Ivan, congratulations again to you and the entire team over at Darrington Press critical role. So thrilled to see this out in the world. Can't wait to start my gaming group on this adventure as well as we. As we wind down, we always like to leave our listeners and viewers with some recommendations to spice up their next gaming nights. So obviously, Dagger Heart notwithstanding, it's an go go pick it up. You can find it wherever fine games are sold.
- [47:41]
Ivan Van Norman
You heard the spiel. Go and go and check it out. Right? Yes.
- [47:45]
Dan Casey
So, Ivan, my question for you. What is one of your favorite TTRPGs that you think people might be sleeping on or should get more shine?
- [47:53]
Ivan Van Norman
Hmm. Well, I think we talked about one of them, which is ten Candles. Right. And there's a lot of joy in that. I have a few. I'm going to do a few of them. One of them is a shame. Plug as well, too, because I have to do it as well. I think it goes to show I never can answer this question without talking about dread. Right. Dread is probably the best horror role playing game, period, end of story, no questions. Right. It really invokes this visceral, emotional feel when you play the game because it's. The mechanics is forcing you to pull blocks from, you know, a tower of blocks, I'll just say, in order to.
- [48:37]
Dan Casey
Kind of like a legally distinct tower.
- [48:39]
Ivan Van Norman
Of blocks of wooden blocks. Right. And that act of pulling those blocks already give you that, like, anxious dread, if you will. Right. Then the game is just so good about reinforcing that. Right. So. Oh, it's so good. One of my favorites. I'm gonna play it next week for the first time in a long time with some friends and it's. It will feel like putting on a favorite jacket.
- [49:09]
Dan Casey
I think that's great. I love to hear that.
- [49:12]
Ivan Van Norman
I feel like I should give Hunters a little shout out. They have a great solo journaling game that's coming out.
- [49:21]
Dan Casey
Is this Sin Eater?
- [49:23]
Ivan Van Norman
Sin Eater, yeah. Right. Oh, the art's so cool on it. And solo games are really finding a marketplace right now, is what they are. And, you know, whether they were designed for solo play or not, like, it's just. It's just kind of a fun thing to be able to experience. I I credit it a little bit to the lit RPG movement that's also happening in like books and fiction right now as well too. But like, yeah, it's just great. So Sin Eater is awesome. It has a. It has a very. The art has a very Mork Bork kind of attitude towards it, but it is really about. It is about eating sin. Right. So they're gonna launch. I think when this goes up, it'll probably be either just out and. Or it'll have been out for like a week or so on Kickstarter, so.
- [50:12]
Dan Casey
Fantastic. You are ify Wadiway also recommended that. So, folks, you heard it here first and now second, Pick it up.
- [50:20]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah, if he's got good taste, I'll say that.
- [50:23]
Dan Casey
Exactly, exactly. Real Sommelier's palette there.
- [50:28]
Ivan Van Norman
Besides that, man. The other ones. Board games. Two board games I think you should try out, Dan, if you haven't. Have you played Raptor yet?
- [50:37]
Dan Casey
I have not played Raptor.
- [50:38]
Ivan Van Norman
So the copy I have is from Madagot, but there's. It might be with some other publishers now. But it is a. It is a two player, asymmetrical chess like game that. That play that uses cards that feel like the classic card game war. You are either playing the Raptor or you're playing the group of scientists. And you're both putting effect cards down in order to either do the ability on the card or take basic actions based off the difference of the numbers from the cards you play in order to either A, capture a bunch of baby Raptors on the board or B, try to eat all the scientists to clear them off the board. It's really slick and very, very good.
- [51:21]
Dan Casey
That sounds incredibly. You had me at chess like. But then I love anything that incorporates some cards in there too. So I'm definitely picking this up.
- [51:28]
Ivan Van Norman
Asymmetrical. And it's. That's the thing too. It's like. It's weird to say both chess like and asymmetrical at the same time, but when you play it, you'll understand.
- [51:36]
Dan Casey
I look forward to it. So that's the game you would bring to game night if everyone was like, you know what? We're gonna play whatever you want. We'll read any rule book. We'll watch a video. Raptor.
- [51:48]
Ivan Van Norman
Raptor and Fury of Dracula.
- [51:50]
Dan Casey
So Fury of Dracula. Why is he so mad? What is it?
- [51:52]
Ivan Van Norman
What is it? What happened? Is it because you're constantly trying to follow his blood trail and get him to stop sucking blood? Who knows?
- [51:59]
Dan Casey
You could say.
- [52:00]
Ivan Van Norman
You could say.
- [52:03]
Dan Casey
Why is this Drac so angry?
- [52:06]
Ivan Van Norman
Just running across Europe, laying down vampire traps everywhere. It's like he's got a beef or something, right?
- [52:12]
Dan Casey
No wonder he hopped that boat. I get it, cd.
- [52:15]
Ivan Van Norman
But that's actually one of the reasons I love Fury of Dracula is there are rules for, like, hopping on a boat. And, like, you can move. You can move around Europe a lot quicker if you get on a boat. But he. But he takes damage because he doesn't like being on a ship, Dan. Dracula doesn't like being on the water. Right.
- [52:35]
Dan Casey
I get the seasick very easily.
- [52:39]
Ivan Van Norman
He's like. He's just rubbing his home dirt all over his face just for comfort, like, it's Dramamine.
- [52:45]
Dan Casey
Oh, my gosh. You know, whatever it takes. I'm not a big cruise guy myself, so. I feel you, Dracula. I'd be furious, too. Yeah.
- [52:53]
Ivan Van Norman
Oh. Last one, and then I'm gonna let you go. Dan, I'm so sorry. I can't.
- [52:57]
Dan Casey
No apology needed.
- [52:58]
Ivan Van Norman
Yeah. I've never played this game. No one will play this game with me. But since you did say if it would force anyone to sit down and play the game with me. Panamax. Are you familiar with Panamax at all?
- [53:12]
Dan Casey
I am not. It sounds like a vcr.
- [53:15]
Ivan Van Norman
It is a resource management game about getting ships through the Panama Canal.
- [53:25]
Dan Casey
Amazing. Yeah. I love. I love when a game is so specific like that.
- [53:31]
Ivan Van Norman
You've got your supermax ships that barely fit through, and you've got your basic ones, and there's these. There's the three little parts of the Panama Canal where it's like, okay, you can put ships in here and they can stay here, but you've got to take priority through the different lock steps. The rule book is huge. No one. No one will invest the time with me. And I just want to play Panamax. It's been in my shelf for 10.
- [53:54]
Dan Casey
Years, you know, just calling to you. Like the green Goblin mask.
- [54:00]
Ivan Van Norman
See, it even made Jeremy leave. That's what.
- [54:02]
Dan Casey
Yeah, he. You know what he was. It's. He got the sense we were wrapping things up. But speaking of wrapping things up, Ivan, thank you again for joining us today. I really appreciate it. Where can people find you on the World Wide Web if in fact you want to be found?
- [54:18]
Ivan Van Norman
I'm on the Internet Hydralord in most social medias, and I think that's the best way of doing it. You can find me. I'm not in front of the camera very often anymore, Dan, So I'm mostly working the games behind the scenes nowadays. So just pop off a message somewhere or check us out. At Daring Press and Hunter's Entertainment and every other place where beautiful games are sold. And go buy Daggerheart and back Sin Eater. And let me know if you want to play Panamax.
- [54:57]
Dan Casey
Yes, especially Panamax. Especially Panamax. Ivan, thank you again and to everyone out there, we'll be back with another question and answers each and every week right here on geek and sundry's YouTube channel or wherever fine podcasts are served. And thank you again to everyone for listening. But for now, folks, tell us, what games are you playing this week? What are you most excited to introduce to your table? Let us know in the comments and we'll see you folks next time. Bye. Bye. All right, here we go.
- [55:29]
Ivan Van Norman
New Phineas and Ferb is here. We're back, baby, for 104 more days. I know what we're gonna do today. A summer vacation. Vacation.
- [55:37]
Dan Casey
I am ready for summer shenanigans. Let's do it.
- [55:40]
Ivan Van Norman
Oh, yeah. We're gonna bust fitness burp once and for all. Are we gonna do this again?
- [55:45]
Dan Casey
New inventions, shenanigans, inators, adventures and songs.
- [55:49]
Ivan Van Norman
Brand new summer vacations. New Phineas and Ferb starts June 5th.
- [55:54]
Dan Casey
On Disney Channel and next day on Disney on disneyplus.disney.com.
- [55:59]
Ivan Van Norman
I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.
- [56:01]
Dan Casey
And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director.
- [56:04]
Ivan Van Norman
You might know me from the League.
- [56:05]
Dan Casey
Veep, or my non eligible for Academy.
- [56:08]
Ivan Van Norman
Award role in Twisters. We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and I don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dune 2 is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Un Spooled, a podcast where you talk about good movies, critical hits, fan.
- [56:32]
Dan Casey
Favorites, must sees, and in case you.
- [56:33]
Ivan Van Norman
Missed ems, we're talking the Home Alone. From Grease to the Dark Knight.
- [56:37]
Dan Casey
We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks.
- [56:40]
Ivan Van Norman
We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, like Ganja and Hess. So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure. Listen to unspooled wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to hit the follow button. Hey, folks, we're the hosts of Comic Sans, the podcast about comics for those who are sans knowledge. I'm Yen, a reader, writer, liver and breather of comic books. And I'm Nat I used to know absolutely nothing about comics, but now. So actually, I've got a quiz for you. I still have a lot to learn about comics. Thank you. Thank you. On Comic Hans, I make Nat read some of my favorite works in the medium, including Saga, Daredevil, and the Flintstones. And Yen talks about what makes that comic special. Sometimes it's a story, sometimes it's paneling, gutters, page turns, colorings, lettering, semiotics, juxtaposition. Okay, professor, save it. For the episodes. You can listen to Comic Sans on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge. Our first two seasons. That's over 20 episodes on 20 different comics, and we just launched season three. New episodes every two weeks.