Tale Gate | Episode 1 | Discussing Up To C4E11

Summary

Critical Role: Tale Gate | Episode 1 | Discussing Up To C4E11

Release Date: January 27, 2026

Episode Overview

The inaugural episode of Tale Gate serves as Critical Role Campaign 4’s official talkback show, where cast members gather with host Whitney to reflect on the campaign’s first arc (Episodes 1–11). They tackle lorekeeper questions, discuss worldbuilding and character arcs, unpack memorable battles, and share their behind-the-scenes experiences exploring the new setting of Ahriman. The cast also celebrates community fan works and hints at future plotlines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First Foray Beyond Dol Mak Yar (Exploring the New World)

[06:02–08:45]

• The party shares excitement over being the first Critical Role group to adventure outside of Dol Mak Yar.
• Travis jokes about not having a proper map for reference:

  "We don't have a map. It's just a lot of words, and I don't know where we're going."

• Brennan reveals he created a hand-drawn, pencil-sketched map at home, humorously describing his humble artistic skills.
• The group reflects on balancing exploration with narrative direction, with Brennan commending the players for adapting quickly to the fresh setting.

2. Character Growth Away from “Home”

[08:50–12:25]

• Whitney (Tierny) and Sam (Wick) discuss their characters adjusting to a harsher, wider world:
  • Whitney:

    "She thought she was tough shit... then out in the rough world, she’s like, 'Ooh, I’m a little baby, actually.'"

  • Sam:

    "Wick learned he might not be as equipped for the world as he thought... maybe he learned people don’t like him, and the world is a rough and tumble place." [09:07]

• Discovery of Wick’s wings and new powers is a highlight.
• The cast appreciates Brennan’s approach to level-ups: letting abilities emerge through story beats rather than strict rules.
  • Travis:

    "It's super cool to reveal stuff through story and pick spells you find in the moment." [12:25]

3. Favorite Battles & Combat Storytelling

[13:12–15:01]

• Whitney’s pick: the Castle Sloke battle for its blend of espionage and teamwork.
• Brennan praises the cast for making combat emotionally resonant:

  "For Wick... his experience of combat was mapping to his emotional journey in a way that I thought was really cool." [11:46]

• Memorable moments cited:
  • Dr. Jezebel Finger’s chilling line:

    “Do you hear it now?” during Castle Sloke (Brennan, [13:35])

  • Wulfric’s horse-peeling maneuver.

4. Cadogan’s Return & Emotional Shields

[17:21–18:51]

• Robbie reflects on Cadogan’s emotional detachment and growing need for community:

  "Cadogan has zero expectations of anything. It’s a very free and sad way to live." [17:21]

  • He admits Cadogan’s journey is about slowly letting his guard down and learning to feel again.
• The party notes limited opportunities for “campfire talks” amid the action, relishing the quieter moments.

5. Morality & Organic Character Development

[21:09–24:55]

• Brennan observes that Cadogan, while gruff, displays “a profoundly moral man” beneath the surface, a facet that surfaced organically rather than being preplanned:

  "A tremendous amount of wisdom and grace came from this gruff man... Let me share a lesson I got the hard way." [24:01]

• Robbie confirms that in-play choices surprised even him, like prioritizing healing over combat.

6. Thimble’s Complicated Revenge and Grief

[26:08–32:28]

• Laura (Thimble) explores her character’s post-revenge turmoil:

  "She doesn’t know who she is or what the world means anymore... You can’t really have that comfort." [26:12]

• The cast draws parallels between Thimble and Batman’s unprocessed grief fueling action, with Brennan using a memorable Wile E. Coyote analogy:

  “Wile E. Coyote doesn’t fall until he looks down... How long would he hang in the air where the only thing that can happen next is to fall? But if I never look down, it never starts.” [29:32]

7. Highs, Lows, and Internal Conflict

[32:48–35:13]

• Each cast member shares their character's highest and lowest points so far.
  • Thimble’s high: achieving revenge; low: realizing it didn’t fix anything.
  • Wick’s high: “helping other people”; low: learning dark family truths.
  • Robbie confesses to missing crucial moments (“missing the basket list with the sunblind bolt”) as some of the hardest parts.
  • Whitney’s high/low: stealing the knife.
• Brennan voices appreciation for players who “take huge swings,” highlighting that bold, risky moves enhance the story.

8. Worldbuilding: Magical Items & Lore

[37:13–40:45]

• Discussion of whether Cadogan’s knife is a “vestige of divergence.” Brennan clarifies:

  "We are in a world where the Divergence did not happen. So to call it that would be...shocking. But in another world it would have been called a vestige of divergence."

• He extols Matt Mercer’s creation of the Vestige system, praising the narrative integration of magic item progression.

9. Conflict, Morality, and Party Dynamics

[41:08–44:40]

• Whitney presses Robbie on Kadigan’s aggressive reaction to Tyranny stealing the knife.
  • Robbie defends Cadogan's flawed response:

    “It came from a place of honesty and morality... it probably wasn’t the right way to handle that situation, but... the thing that was done was right, and the way... was poor, and I’m okay with it.” [43:12]

• Brennan points out the importance of characters responding authentically to demonic choices, reinforcing both Tyranny and Cadogan’s characterizations.

10. Party Relationships and Growing Pains

[51:07–53:21]

• Sam and Laura discuss the evolving dynamic between Wick and Thimble—awkward but honest, with Thimble recognizing Wick’s pure intentions despite his blunders.
• Brennan notes Wick’s arc of rejecting ideological programming is just beginning.

11. Wick’s Uncertain, Wondrous Powers

[55:15–57:52]

• Wick undergoes a “second puberty” as new magical powers emerge, but he bears guilt about their dark origins:

  “With every spell that he casts, especially ones that hurt people, he’s like, I’m using magic that isn’t mine... and it’s bad magic... it just comes with guilt.” [56:39]

• Robbie asks if Wick’s faith is growing or waning; Travis’s answer is nuanced, reflecting the search for truth beyond old organizations.

12. Moral Nuance of the Candescent Creed

[57:52–61:20]

• Brennan explains his intentional balance in portraying both the “good and bad” of the campaign’s central institution without propaganda:

  “The point of storytelling... is to try and talk about your experience of life as faithfully as possible. The moment you misrepresent... your opponent is where you slip into propaganda.” [58:13]

13. Community Appreciation: Noteworthy Fan Works

[36:09–37:13]

• The cast celebrates fan creations during “Noteworthy Notables,” recognizing art by Z Heller on IG, praising creative depictions and character details.
  • Robbie: “He looks fantastic... he’s a beautiful boy.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Brennan, on maps:

  “It is really funny to be... at a stage of playing D&D where I still have to do the making it up, but then I have to... look for an artist. Help someone make it pretty.” [07:39]

• Laura, on Thimble’s post-revenge confusion:

  “I thought this was gonna make it okay, but it’s not okay still.” [31:49]

• Brennan’s Wile E. Coyote and Batman analogy:

  “Wile E. Coyote doesn’t fall until he looks down... If I never look down, it never starts.” [29:32]

• On Morality:

  “It’s okay to be a good person who’s had a hard life or made bad decisions.” —Robbie, [24:01]
  “The first moment you misrepresent the feelings or argument of your opponent is where you slip into making propaganda.” —Brennan, [58:13]

• Player/Character Insight:

  “You have autonomy in deciding the type of person you want to be.” —Whitney, [46:38]

• Celebrating risk-taking at the table:

  “Players who take huge swings—it’s such a great demonic play. It’s so simultaneously wicked and also childlike.” —Brennan, [35:13]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Show proper begins / Introduction: [02:54]
• First lorekeeper question (exploring beyond Dol Mak Yar): [06:02]
• Character adjustments to the world: [08:50]
• Combat reflections: [13:12]
• Cadogan’s character evolution: [17:21], [21:09]
• Revenge & Thimble’s emotional aftermath: [26:08], [29:32]
• Highs and lows of the arc: [32:48]
• Magic item/vestige discussion: [37:13]
• Knife theft morality debate: [41:08]
• Team/relationship dynamics: [51:07]
• Wick’s powers and faith: [55:15]
• Candescent Creed’s portrayal: [57:52]
• Fan art segment (“Noteworthy Notables”): [36:09]

---

Tone & Atmosphere

• Irreverent, playful, and deeply honest, the group regularly bursts into laughter, but also digs into themes of trauma, forgiveness, and personal growth.
• Encouraging of bold and sometimes messy character decisions, the cast and DM create space for both fun and vulnerability.
• Frequent meta and improv asides underline their comfort with one another, with running jokes about set dressing, unwashed cups, and Travis being left off the question list.

---

Conclusion

This first episode of Tale Gate is a perfect blend of Critical Role camaraderie, thoughtful story unpacking, and earnest appreciation for both the audience and the evolving world of Campaign 4. Equal parts silly, sincere, and insightful, it sets a high bar for future aftershow discussions and invites fans to keep theorizing between arcs.

[End of summary]

Transcript

[Sam Riegel]

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[Whitney]

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[Sam Riegel]

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[Whitney]

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[Robbie]

Both.

[Sam Riegel]

Want a cup? Hey, let's do a taste test for the audience.

[Laura Kasimir]

Okay, how's this?

[Whitney]

The rich, smooth taste of Dunkin at Home is unmatched.

[Sam Riegel]

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[Brennan]

The home with Dunkin's where you wanna be.

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[Robbie]

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[Sam Riegel]

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[Robbie]

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[Brennan]

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[Robbie]

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[Travis]

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[Sam Riegel]

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[Sam Riegel]

Why, hello there, distinguished Campaign 4 listeners. I'm Sam Riegel, and welcome to our.

[Travis]

New talkback show, tailgate.

[Sam Riegel]

In this series, we'll sit down with the cast after each table arc and spill the tea together on all things campaign four. Plus, if you're a beacon member, the soiree will continue with the nightcap, a beacon exclusive segment where we answer all your questions from the discord chat. Each tailgate episode is streamed Live on Beacon TV, YouTube, and Twitch and will arrive here on the critical role podcast.

[Travis]

Network one week later. So if you ever want to join.

[Sam Riegel]

In on the live fun, check us out on one of those platforms. All right, without further ado, let's get this tailgate started.

[Whitney]

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the first episode of tailgate. This is the official Talkback show for Campaign 4, where we'll be talking through the latest arc, answering lorekeeper questions, oogling a few fan creations, and enjoying the rare luxury of reflection. So pull up a seat and pour some tea because the gate is open.

[Robbie]

Yay.

[Travis]

You talked.

[Laura Kasimir]

And shoot.

[Whitney]

Wait, are we still. Hey, everybody. Everyone was so nervous that I was gonna spill it.

[Travis]

Oh, my God.

[Robbie]

How did you still can. That looks hot. It is.

[Whitney]

You know, I shouldn't have. All right, all right, all right. Let's get to some lorekeeper questions.

[Brennan]

Y' all tail like story.

[Laura Kasimir]

Story.

[Robbie]

No, I didn't get it.

[Whitney]

We are also wearing tails. Did you not get that? We've got them.

[Brennan]

Okay.

[Sam Riegel]

Yes.

[Whitney]

Not visible. I wanna go. Before we get to the questions, I wanna appreciate everybody's cups because I asked for a mug. I asked for a teacup that was. That hurt to hold. And I got this one, and it says pain.

[Laura Kasimir]

Does it have barbed wire?

[Whitney]

It has barbed wire on it.

[Sam Riegel]

Yeah.

[Laura Kasimir]

It's really cute.

[Whitney]

Here's my tyranny teacup.

[Brennan]

I have a lovely iridescent black with.

[Whitney]

Oh, that's very apropos metal af.

[Travis]

I have a dainty little puny puny boy cup.

[Whitney]

Yeah. For dainty little puny boys leaves.

[Travis]

What?

[Laura Kasimir]

That's not yours.

[Travis]

Oh, you have The Robbie.

[Brennan]

Oh, this isn't mine.

[Whitney]

Oh, that one's yours.

[Travis]

Whose?

[Whitney]

Why do you have so many cups? That's also very, you know, that's appropriate. Too many cups.

[Travis]

This one. Well, whose is this?

[Brennan]

Is this Robbie's?

[Robbie]

That's not mine.

[Brennan]

That's Set Deck.

[Sam Riegel]

That's Set Deck.

[Brennan]

They're all Set Deck.

[Robbie]

It has not been washed.

[Laura Kasimir]

That one is not washed.

[Robbie]

Look at what's floating on the top. Oh, I drank that.

[Brennan]

Yeah. Have you guys ever sat in a museum chair? That was one of the exhibits by accident. Ooh, I did. Yes. Bad.

[Whitney]

Did you get kicked out?

[Brennan]

No, I got reprimanded. Loudly.

[Whitney]

Across a room, I saw a video.

[Laura Kasimir]

Of a guy that broke an art display. That was a chair, and he sat in it, and it just collapsed.

[Brennan]

That's so bad. You can't be having a display. That's a chair. That's just near the bathrooms.

[Whitney]

What a rube. I would never do that. What does your mug look like, Branch?

[Brennan]

I got leaves. You got leaves.

[Robbie]

It makes it functionally unusable, but I'm.

[Travis]

Enjoying the fake plants.

[Robbie]

They're nice.

[Whitney]

Okay, the first lorekeeper question that I have is for everybody. How was it getting to be the first party to explore outside of Dol Mak Yar?

[Guest/Announcer]

I'll go first.

[Whitney]

It was sick. It was really cool.

[Travis]

Is that the whole show? You just answering?

[Whitney]

And I am answering you guys. We're all accessors. This is my show.

[Brennan]

Less from you, more from me.

[Laura Kasimir]

Got it, got it, got it.

[Brennan]

Whitney's got a lot of questions.

[Laura Kasimir]

My mug's great.

[Whitney]

You actually do have the best mug. Laura, you should show it.

[Travis]

What is it?

[Laura Kasimir]

It's glass.

[Robbie]

What's on top?

[Laura Kasimir]

Flower.

[Travis]

Ooh, that's cute.

[Brennan]

It is actually quite lovely. The gold clasp on glass.

[Travis]

It's also a larger cup, which makes you look small.

[Whitney]

This is Set deck, too, but I feel like this is very thin. Ooh, that is really pretty.

[Robbie]

Whatever gray muck you're drinking looks delicious.

[Laura Kasimir]

It's coffee with milk in it. But I wish I would have waited, because I could have gotten real tea.

[Travis]

Yeah, there you go.

[Whitney]

You can mix them.

[Laura Kasimir]

Where is.

[Brennan]

Oh, there is milk with coffee in it. That's a light.

[Laura Kasimir]

This is foul. It's not good.

[Travis]

Whitney. I enjoyed exploring the world of Ahriman, the algorithm.

[Sam Riegel]

Oh, good.

[Laura Kasimir]

It was great.

[Travis]

Yeah, it's. I don't. You know, Brennan, we don't have a map.

[Sam Riegel]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So it's just a lot of. Of words, and I don't know where we're going, and I don't know where we've been.

[Brennan]

I want to be clear. We do have a map. It' in pencil. It's just. I drew it at home and we all got it.

[Travis]

But it was so bad. It was so bad. It looked like a child drew it.

[Brennan]

It is really funny to be like. To be at a stage of playing DD where I still have to do the making it up. But then I have to sort of like a baby. I'm looking like artist. Help someone make it pretty.

[Robbie]

I don't know. Yeah.

[Brennan]

No. There is. The continent of Pasatar is. It exists. But our first little trek out from Dolmachiar. I know there is a lot of that. Like, whoa, wait. I have to place myself in context of what this realm is and what this land is. I thought you guys did a phenomenal job. That was really excellent.

[Travis]

And there's multiple kingdoms around us and borders.

[Brennan]

Oh, yeah.

[Whitney]

And dogs.

[Brennan]

Fairies.

[Robbie]

To your credit. You're not making it up on the spot. Because you gave me. You said you were out here doing stuff. And I said, what was the stuff we're doing and where's out here? And you knew all the answers. It was real life homework. It was so impressive.

[Whitney]

There are so many NPCs that we probably didn't even meet. That you just had queued up for if we went or that we saw.

[Laura Kasimir]

In passing that other people are gonna get to meet. Yes.

[Travis]

Jealous of them.

[Whitney]

All right. I'm gonna go to the next one. This one's for me and Sam.

[Travis]

They are.

[Whitney]

Whitney, what's it like being the favorite?

[Travis]

Okay.

[Whitney]

All right. Sam, this is Russ. This was the first time Tierney and Wick left their home. True. What did they each learn the most about themselves during our travels? You take it.

[Travis]

I think Wick learned that he might not be as equipped for the world as he thought. Maybe he learned that people don't like him and that the world is a rough and tumble place filled with lots of different types of people. But he also learned that there's some good people out there too, who are who. If you put your faith in them and your trust in them, they can help you through a pickle.

[Laura Kasimir]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

Plus he can sprout wings. That's something that can be done.

[Travis]

I learned that too. Yes. That I can.

[Whitney]

He's an angel boy. I kind of feel like tyranny of. Same thing. She thought she was tough shit. Cause she was just, you know, on a leash. But kind of gallivanting around, you know, don't lock your art with you. And then out in the rough world. She's like, ooh, I'm a little baby, actually. I don't know. I don't know many things about the world, so we're kind of in the middle.

[Laura Kasimir]

She's just a baby.

[Whitney]

She's just a baby.

[Laura Kasimir]

Did you know you could have wings?

[Travis]

Did I, Sam Riegel?

[Guest/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Sam Riegel. Yes, I did.

[Brennan]

Okay.

[Travis]

I knew that that was an option. One of three options, I believe. But I didn't know how to activate it. And, you know, I don't know much about this character. I've never played a sorcerer, so I don't. And I've certainly never played this kind of sorcerer, so I didn't know how it was gonna manifest. It manifested in a super cool way. Thank you, Brent.

[Brennan]

It was really fun. I think it is really cool. For mapping, you guys had a tremendous amount of combats in a very short number of episodes. We had the fight at Hawthorne's Glade. We had the fight at the Wraithtree. We had the fight at Castle Sloke, and we had the fight in the cellars of Castle Delaun.

[Travis]

You are the soldiers.

[Brennan]

You're the soldiers. Yes. You guys whipped a lot of ass, and I think it was very cool.

[Whitney]

Mostly a thimble.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Laura Kasimir]

Yeah.

[Brennan]

Mathematically, yes. I mean, just. You count the damage, and it only tells one story.

[Robbie]

But the important.

[Brennan]

The important thing is this. Everyone's story was really fascinating. I felt right. Like, I love when combat tells a story. And for Wick, what was very interesting was Wick had some exceptional moments of triumph. The moment of shedding the light of the sun in that glade. And Shuffa, the plant creature beginning to revere you. And Wick was encountering a brutal world he was not cut out for. Wick dropped in two different combats.

[Travis]

Don't mind me.

[Brennan]

I have. I just now. And it feels like a cool mapping to the idea of the process of being like, okay, I need to throw out an entire cosmology and a conception of the world while somehow preserving a sense of forward momentum and right and wrong and who I even am. And it feels like that. What that can feel like is, okay, I get to keep this. I am servant of the light. Oops. Ate shit. Stabbed through the stomach. Oh, no, that doesn't work the same. And it just felt like your experience of combat was mapping to your emotional journey in a way that I thought was really cool.

[Travis]

For sure.

[Brennan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I also liked. This is a total tangent. When we leveled up, you did this great thing of choosing when we level up and how we level up and choose the spell that we take or the ability that we take or. Which was a cool thing to involve that into a story beat. But I think I. Anyway, because I'm sort of new to my powers and new to my abilities, I've been also sort of choosing story beats to sort of use a spell for the first time or use an ability that's technically on my character sheet but I wouldn't know about or I haven't used yet. And there's other spells that I have on my character sheet that I still haven't. I haven't even used them yet or even tried to. So it's super cool to reveal stuff.

[Whitney]

Well, this is a great segue. You were mentioning that we've had a fair amount of battles, and I've got a question here, which is what is everyone's favorite battle we've had? I loved the bit of espionage we got to do. I feel like the Sloke one kind of worked all of our different skills in a really unique way.

[Laura Kasimir]

That was really cool.

[Brennan]

Yeah, Sloke was sick. We had. It's very rare to have a moment of a line as cold and badass as. Do you hear it now? While someone named Dr. Jezebel Finger is.

[Whitney]

This game's got it all. Hiding in a giant octopus.

[Brennan]

Yeah. Bang, bang, bang. This game's got it all. It was really great, everyone. I feel like that. Yeah, that was an awesome battle, that move with Wulfric and peeling the horse off.

[Laura Kasimir]

Yes. That was brilliant.

[Robbie]

Yeah, that felt like that for me. I think I said this in maybe the cooldown. That was like the team comes together episode for me via combat and not just rp. It just felt like everybody was doing what they were supposed to do and they were doing it in a fun and interesting way. That was definitely my favorite. Yeah.

[Laura Kasimir]

Your face was in the mud for most of that battle, right?

[Travis]

Yes, that's right. I was being held down in the middle of the room while you guys were doing badass stuff.

[Whitney]

That was very cool, Very brave.

[Robbie]

But you did yell help for us all to come save you.

[Laura Kasimir]

So without that started it all.

[Whitney]

Incredible, incredible tactical move there.

[Travis]

I think when I did that, I looked over at Travis, and he was just like, what?

[Whitney]

That's what got Brennan to leave the table.

[Brennan]

It was so. It was so funny.

[Whitney]

I loved the fairy fight, too, because I feel like there was so much for Thimble to consider of. Like, you know, you have the option of leaving us in the dirt. You could have just sold us up the river.

[Laura Kasimir]

I know. And she's just. This is what she knows now. You guys are what she knows. So it's almost like that's foreign to her.

[Brennan]

That was also the fight where we met the big bad of the campaign skinner. The redcap. Who is gonna come back and get fucking terrified. I put my hat in you.

[Travis]

It was a hat.

[Laura Kasimir]

It was a hat.

[Brennan]

It's not like a hat.

[Whitney]

I feel like he would do both.

[Brennan]

He did do both. There's only one way to get the hat in you is the hand to go in. Red caps are a real fairy type from fairy folklore. What does that mean? I believe they're from the British Isles. I think that they're a. And I could be wrong, but that's what I remember at least. And the red cap is red because of being dyed in blood. There are these little goblins, fairy men who are nasty bearded little guys who come up and they kill people and bathe their hats in their blood.

[Whitney]

That's so sick. That rules.

[Laura Kasimir]

And then you said the headless guys switching their heads.

[Brennan]

That's also that one I made up.

[Whitney]

Really?

[Brennan]

Greg is a pre existing term for a little cricket type fairy. But the swapping of the head, the kettle hobs and the swapping of the heads, that's made it up on the spot.

[Laura Kasimir]

Just on the fly in that moment.

[Brennan]

I'm often in my office going, what's a fucked up little guy to meet?

[Travis]

Do you have like a board of like on the left it's like elf, gnome, dwarf. And then on the right it's like can switch heads, has backwards hands.

[Brennan]

I have a series of custom made magic eight balls and I. And I roll them out and I'm like, elf head switch. Okay.

[Whitney]

There are so many cool Fae folks that we got to meet. Cause we also met the Hag. We met Brook, Meadow. We met so many and many to come. I'm sure we have so many questions. So I'm gonna cook this next one's for Robbie. Did Cadogan expect his fellow former soldiers to question his mysterious return? More than they did. And how does he feel being back in a group, in the group and interacting with people again in general? Because you just got folded in.

[Robbie]

That's a good question. Cadogan has zero expectations of anything. It's a very free and sad way to live. Is that okay?

[Brennan]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

Very Taoist.

[Robbie]

Well, I think that you can't impose. You can't impose expectations on people that you don't have relationships with. And maybe you shouldn't as much as you do with the people that you have. So when he's back in this group, I don't know he's capable of caring without necessarily putting value on needing to trauma dump on his homies.

[Whitney]

So, yeah, I think that speaks to how antisocial he is because I think a common, a core component of an antisocial person is deliberately not needing community, not needing something from your friends. And if that's a deliberate move on Cadigan.

[Laura Kasimir]

Does he need it though?

[Robbie]

What? Does he need it?

[Whitney]

He needs it.

[Laura Kasimir]

Well, he doesn't know he needs it.

[Robbie]

I think it's been not so Kadigan.

[Whitney]

Just needs a. I don't think I've.

[Robbie]

Been like light handed in the idea that he's feeling again at all. I think when you're numbed out and regressive and you start feeling again.

[Brennan]

You.

[Robbie]

Don'T even know how to process this at first, except when you're in the moment. So if you're a person who lives moment to moment and you're in your body and you feel those feelings, but you haven't felt them in a long time, I think it can be confusing and frightening and I think you can revert back into old behaviors that used to be your shield. So, yeah, he's going through all of that, but he's not one to sit on the couch and talk about it.

[Laura Kasimir]

Yeah, I certainly wanted to ask you about it. I feel like Thimble's so antagonistic with people though. Like, she's in your face. It's not like a gentle. What happened? Are you okay?

[Whitney]

We were doing this. What the fuck were you doing?

[Robbie]

We were all doing lots of stuff though. Time travel to your credit. It was a jam packed adventure and there wasn't as much time to be like, how are you?

[Whitney]

Yeah, we didn't really get a campfire talk till the very end.

[Brennan]

So I think my favorite episode of the soldiers arc was make merry this last one where we're the very final because to have this rock em sock em combat filled escapade, vengeance and rescue and discovery, and to get that very sweet moment of in triumph. But a like a high stakes still, like your heart rate's up, kind of triumphant. It's like we got Sid, but he's a statue. We got our revenge, but the enemies are still abound. To have this moment at the campfire where we see everyone suddenly catch their first breath and reveal how they're doing, that's always my favorite shit. And also because I love to come shoot something and I go, ah, this shit has nothing to do with Me, I'm gonna kick back and watch the professionals work. Truly the best seat in the house.

[Travis]

Hey, I just have a question that just popped up in my head. Who's been coming up with the episode titles? Is it you? Is it producers? Is it Matt? Is it who is it? Who comes up with these?

[Brennan]

I will say, I think the highest batting average of episode titles goes to one Dani Carr.

[Sam Riegel]

Oh, yeah.

[Brennan]

An applause.

[Travis]

Does she pitch him after every episode?

[Brennan]

Yes. I am cc'd with a number of producers and other great people, and Dany has the most phenomenal episode breakdowns and title suggestions. And they're beautiful and often contain a lovely double meaning or reference to the themes of the episode. And I think it's delightful. I was going to follow up on the question that we are technically on right now, from our lorekeeper, speaking of Dani Carr, to Robbie, which was just to ask something that was very cool, because Robbie is playing an archetype that we love. The gruff, stoic, laconic, the man with a mysterious past, who is an outdoorsy, gruff man.

[Robbie]

And that's all.

[Brennan]

There is a facet. There is a facet of your character that was not included in the pitch, Doc. It wasn't present at character creation. It came out organically through play, which is one of my favorite ways that characters evolve. Like, we are literally playing this game to discover the story we're telling. Right. I would say that Cadigan, very subtly and without judgment or preachiness amongst a religious figure. Right. Is a profoundly moral man, and that his. And that a tremendous amount of wisdom and grace came from this gruff man who we meet in a state of, like, sort of, like, drunken. We've seen sort of, like an unkempt wild man, in some ways, has, like, a very potent heart. Did you become aware of that? First of all, do people share the same observation that I had? And was that something that happened organically in a way that you were surprised to discover through playing the character?

[Robbie]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that we talked about this, like, creating a backstory versus, like, trying to foist it upon someone else's story or just living in it and see what happens. And, like, little moments like that surprise you. We were talking about the first encounter with I'm gonna put my hat in you. And it was like, oh, it's go time. Tayor, my battle buddy, is about to fire things up. And my gut check wasn't to continue that conflict. It was to heal the first person that heal Honeysuckle. And that surprised me. Cause I was looking at my options and then I was like, ah, it's an unavoidable choice because it's what he would do. So I feel like, yeah. And those moments continue to surprise, set up by the circumstances that the rest of the cast and you build. So I think that's the. What a rich and fun way to play any kind of character. Yeah.

[Brennan]

Like that moment. The moment where you heal Honeysuckle. The moment where Wick is weighing all these options for what to do as House Hayluvar has taken Castle Sloke, and Cadogan comes in and is like. Like Dame Winifred. You know what I mean? Consider giving it to the local. Like, time and time again, it was this thing of. That always came from a commoner's point of view as being really grounded moral insight that because of who Cadogan is, there is no finger wagging that accompanies it. When someone who visibly wears a hard life comes to you with moral insight, it always comes from. Let me share a lesson with you. I got the hard way. Rather than. I'm here to tell you.

[Robbie]

I think, well, those are the people that I grew up with, and that's how I grew up. And I know a lot of us. Some of us have similar backgrounds and stuff like that, and I think it's okay to be a good person who's had a hard life or made bad decisions. Like, I'm a big proponent of retributions, you know. No, it's true. And I think we so often write those people off and they write themselves off. And, like, that was a little bit of the intent to play a character like this. It was just, you know. Yeah.

[Whitney]

And the lessons don't come sugarcoated either. As exhibited with Cat and Tyranny. Having these moments where, you know, he's trying to instill this morality on her. Good luck. And it's done. In a way, I loved that moment just becoming friends with you, Robbie, because I was like, this man has a daughter. And it really, like, it really shows.

[Robbie]

I do have a daughter.

[Whitney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, it really shows. I was like, this is. And it just. It felt so paternal. And I was like, wow, it's such a treat to see those glimmers of Cadogan shine through amongst the grit.

[Robbie]

Is there something in this tea poison?

[Laura Kasimir]

I'm gonna use the set dressing to pour my gross coffee out and get fresh tea.

[Whitney]

Do you want some tea? I have a question for you, Laura.

[Laura Kasimir]

Next.

[Robbie]

Are those donuts edible, Cat?

[Laura Kasimir]

Yeah, no, they are. I checked.

[Brennan]

They are. Wait, the donuts are edible?

[Whitney]

The donuts are edible.

[Laura Kasimir]

And there's.

[Whitney]

Everybody get a donut.

[Guest/Announcer]

Shit.

[Robbie]

Oh, there's brownies in there, dog.

[Brennan]

What's up? Let's go. I'm getting this one. Sorry. Go on, Genghisan.

[Whitney]

Every high tea, you got to have a little. A little cookie, a little bit mixed.

[Laura Kasimir]

This is gonna have a little latte mixed in.

[Whitney]

Let me get you.

[Brennan]

Looks like we made it.

[Sam Riegel]

Wow.

[Whitney]

It's just. It'll have a little milk in it. Sorry, I poured out almost the entire pot for the.

[Laura Kasimir]

No, I get it.

[Whitney]

As a joke. There's no more.

[Travis]

I'm sorry.

[Whitney]

You can have a sip of mine. My tea.

[Laura Kasimir]

Okay.

[Whitney]

Laura Kasimir was once a friend. Thimble got her revenge and all of its complications. But does she worry about other former friends betraying her?

[Laura Kasimir]

I don't. I hadn't until just now.

[Whitney]

Well, get ready, bitch.

[Laura Kasimir]

I'm not gonna lie. Thimble's not thinking about much of anything. Like, she's not thinking about the past right now. She is. She is so just in this, like, cloud of. She doesn't even know who she is anymore. She doesn't know where she stands anymore. She doesn't know what the world means anymore. She doesn't. Like, everything she knows has disappeared at this point. And it's just this quest to try to make it all make sense, and it's not going to. And I was struck in that last scene when all of us were at the campfire and everybody was. And having these talks, and Thimble was off, like, sitting on a flower and kind of watching from a distance of all of everybody else. And how incredibly lonely it is for her to not even to, like, be suffering through this grief. But, like, you can't even hug someone. You can't. You can't really have that embrace. You can't have that comfort.

[Travis]

You can hug me.

[Brennan]

Physically. I mean, the wingspan is so small.

[Laura Kasimir]

I've read that comic. No, I mean, I think she's just. She's lost.

[Whitney]

She's so moving out of her wounds, too. Like, she's moving from a place of wounding. And that's such a great choice because it clouds your vision in so many ways when you move from your pain. God, I love it.

[Laura Kasimir]

Yes, Robbie. Yes, Robbie.

[Robbie]

Okay, so after you smote your enemy upon the castle wall, it felt great right in the moment. But wait. What about right after?

[Laura Kasimir]

Wait, this is actually.

[Robbie]

Is it a real question?

[Whitney]

To answer this leads into the next question, which is, what do you feel was your character's highest high and lowest low from this Arc Highest high.

[Laura Kasimir]

Fucking killing. Yeah. Revenge. Kill him. Slicing his damn throat felt great. Lo.

[Guest/Announcer]

Slow.

[Laura Kasimir]

I mean, can I say falling asleep on Thaz chest. That was terrible.

[Brennan]

It was terrible.

[Whitney]

That's pretty low.

[Robbie]

Slow.

[Laura Kasimir]

That's your finding out he's dead.

[Whitney]

Pretty low.

[Brennan]

Pretty fucking low. We started Thimble's story with the bottom.

[Laura Kasimir]

The bottom.

[Brennan]

An interesting place. I also. Can I. There's more to unpacking this question for all of the characters present here, but I actually want to go back and say, like, lovingly and politely. I think I disagree with a take from before. I want to offer a little spicy hot take here in terms of Thimble moving from a place of grief. I disagree because I think that what is so fascinating about Thimble's journey is.

[Travis]

Fairies can't feel real emotions.

[Brennan]

Yes. They're basically elementals.

[Laura Kasimir]

The brains are too small.

[Brennan]

I never thought about that. Wile E. Coyote in.

[Whitney]

Yeah, I'm about to.

[Brennan]

I'm about to say something. Fucking write it down. Wile E. Coyote doesn't fall until he looks down. And I wonder if Wily knew that he was a cartoon, what would happen if he sees Roadrunner go away and realizes that he's not moving forward anymore and can see the canyon and the edge of it and goes, just keep pumping your legs and don't look down. And how long would he hang in the air where the only thing that can happen next is to fall? But if I never look down, it never starts.

[Whitney]

I resend my observation. I don't have a Looney Tunes analogy. So, No, I just.

[Brennan]

It's a fascinating point.

[Laura Kasimir]

No, but it's. So that's such a.

[Brennan]

There's a. There's a point about. There's a great article.

[Laura Kasimir]

What's next? What's next? What's next?

[Brennan]

There's a great article written about Batman that talks about the power fantasy of Batman. And I think there's actually a lot of parallels between Thimble and Batman. Weirdly, as these, like, superheroic, like, city fucking roguish kind of like things where someone says the power fantasy of Batman is that most people's grief debilitates them and Batman's makes him heroic, but it only makes him heroic if he never processes it. He has to stay locked in the cycle. It's why his ultimate antagonist is laughter. The Joker is the ultimate antagonist because he has to stay sad forever because something about it powers him forward. And I think that there's a way of. The thing about Thimble that really strikes me is the arrested it's that Wile E. Coyote, if he suddenly realized and went, don't look down.

[Robbie]

But this applies exactly to the question that I was asking was once you achieve a goal that's so direct and there's more to unravel, of course, how did you feel afterwards? Like, was it always just eyes on the prize, or was there a moment of introspection as a player or a character where it's like, I had this drive to hunt this character down in game and as my character, and we satisfied this in the most epic way. Are you Laura and are you Thimble? Satisfied or no? Yeah. That's a tough place to go.

[Laura Kasimir]

It's like this feeling of, I thought this was gonna make it okay, but it's not okay still. So what can I move to that will make it okay?

[Brennan]

I've watched that in your. It's such a beautiful character, and the performance is so incredible. And I've watched it where if you go back and look through, Thimble never looks more scared in this first soldier's arc than right after she did what she said she was gonna do, there's a moment where. You know what I mean, when she's got something to chase. It's actually stability and purpose and peace. And the minute that Kazmir dies, you watch a. Gotta be the. What's the next problem? Yeah.

[Whitney]

What were your highest highs and lowest lows?

[Travis]

Sorry, I was thinking about a gritty liveaction remake of Wile E. Coyote versus Batman.

[Whitney]

Jot that down.

[Laura Kasimir]

He heard nothing.

[Brennan]

They're both gadget oriented.

[Travis]

Yes.

[Robbie]

Highest highs and lowest lows.

[Travis]

I mean, at my lowest, lowest, probably finding out that everything I've known is a lie and that my grandmother somehow channeled the blood of a crazy monster angel to fuel her family.

[Whitney]

God, that was so sick.

[Travis]

That was sick. And the highest high, I think, was just surviving any of the fights, waking up at the end?

[Brennan]

No, I think you rolled a nat 20 at disadvantage. I think at one point. That's pretty blessed.

[Laura Kasimir]

You had some really clutch rolls.

[Brennan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Boy, I hope those last. I don't got a lot going on.

[Robbie]

No.

[Travis]

I think being able to help other people. I don't know if I ever really saved the day ever, but I certainly. I helped a couple times. And I think that's all he wants to do, is to help, to be useful.

[Laura Kasimir]

You saved the day with all the fairies. You brought that light out.

[Brennan]

It's true.

[Travis]

I guess I am the best.

[Robbie]

Low. Slow. Missing the simple, just actionable. A person of action failing at what they're meant to do is the worst feeling in the world, especially if you're capable at it. And missing the basket list with the sunblind bolt. My one bolt in my quiver. And missing your shot like you've been riding the bench for 10 years and someone passes the ball, and you fucking brick it, lift it sucks. That's a miserable experience in life. I think everybody should have it multiple, multiple times. It's true. Eyes do the best and the worst. And then I had tiny little highs every single episode from yelling at you about the knife to giving it to you. Because in my head, I was thinking about times when I was crafting it for you. I know. I mean, I was like, where could this actually be happening? And can I justify getting this to you? It's so funny.

[Whitney]

Sitting on that you had that secret was so. That's so fun.

[Travis]

It felt nice.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Laura Kasimir]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

I mean, I guess for myself, highest, lowest low was stealing the knife. Highest high was stealing the knife. And that sucks because felt so bad instantly. But what a thrill that I can't ignore.

[Brennan]

I can't tell you what a gift it is as a DM to have players take huge swings. So this is our first campaign. We're playing together. You stealing that knife fucking rules. And immediately I was like, I'm gonna do a whole thing. I was like. Right away, I was like, that fucking rules. It's such a great demonic play. It's so simultaneously wicked and also childlike of, like, ooh.

[Whitney]

You know, like, not a deeply emotionally sophisticated person. Tyranny is. But she'll get there.

[Guest/Announcer]

Maybe.

[Sam Riegel]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

Hey, before we go any further, we need to pause for a moment because it's our time for our first iteration of noteworthy notables, where we celebrate the good works of those from within the critter community. The first noteworthy notable of tailgate is from Zellers on ig. Let's take a look.

[Brennan]

Noteworthy notable sounds like a celebrity Jeopardy. Category.

[Robbie]

It does, yeah.

[Whitney]

Ooh, it's a.

[Robbie]

Wow.

[Whitney]

I love this one Whitney made about herself. Again, it's my show.

[Robbie]

Has Wick been tanning Kylie?

[Brennan]

Looks good.

[Robbie]

He looks fantastic.

[Whitney]

He's got nails.

[Laura Kasimir]

He just wears bronzer.

[Robbie]

Yeah, a broad bronzer, for sure.

[Brennan]

C. Heller is really nailing the Joel Osteen of.

[Whitney]

There is kind of a Tierney's nails. They both have nails. Look at Wick's in the lower right corner. He's got celestial.

[Laura Kasimir]

We both.

[Whitney]

We went to the manicurist together of.

[Robbie]

Demon self tanner, bag of holding.

[Whitney]

He's a beautiful boy. He Is beautiful. And then we. Yes. We got Brick Meadow. I love the bubbles in the foreground.

[Laura Kasimir]

Oh, my gosh. And the bubble on the head.

[Whitney]

Yes. That moment.

[Travis]

That is such a cool detail.

[Whitney]

Was so, so good.

[Robbie]

She got tadpole bottom. Is that what's going on there?

[Whitney]

Got a little tadpole.

[Robbie]

That's cool.

[Brennan]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

What a cool detail. That's so cool.

[Travis]

Beautiful. These are both by Z Heller.

[Whitney]

Z Heller. I was saying Zellers, but Z Hellers on ig. And if you're interested in being featured on Noteworthy Notables, go check it [e-mail] submit. Submit to me. Anyways, here's some more questions. Brennan. Is the knife from Cadogan actually a vestige of divergence, or does it just behave similarly? I'm excited that we're getting through this because there was a so much speculation.

[Laura Kasimir]

I want to know.

[Brennan]

Yes.

[Travis]

That was a metaphor, right?

[Robbie]

Your phrasing was very particular.

[Brennan]

A comparison. It was a direct comparison. It is a significant object that will. It has the ability to awaken. The item has the ability to awaken and increase, as opposed to a potion where it's like this does one thing.

[Travis]

Eternally, but it's like a vestige of divergence. It doesn't necessarily mean that it is.

[Brennan]

Is a vestige of divergence.

[Travis]

Does it mean that it could be?

[Brennan]

We are in a world where the divergence did not happen. So to call it that would be. Would be shocking. But when I said I think that's. What did I say? I said, like, in another world in time, it would have been called the vestige divergence.

[Robbie]

Clearly an analog.

[Guest/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Sam Riegel]

Yeah.

[Brennan]

That time it would have been called the vestige of divergence.

[Laura Kasimir]

We all heard the words and we.

[Brennan]

Were like, no, I just mean that Matt. Matt made up the coolest shit in the world. Vestige of divergence is solving a. I think Matt in his endless proficiency and brilliance. Vestiges of divergence are like, one of the most elegant and beautiful ways I've ever seen of solving the issue with magic items in these games, which is that you're like, oh, I know we got a better thing, but I've fallen in love with. With this sword, or this one is related to my family or this one. There's something meaningful about it. And I don't want to throw out my dad's sword because I'm like frostmourne sick playing and then your dad's sword is gone. You know, like, so that.

[Whitney]

That's what a bag of holding is for.

[Brennan]

Bag of holding is for. Right.

[Robbie]

I'll remember you forever.

[Brennan]

I remember when I was fighting with you, but I think there's something really beautiful and the exalted state of them and the fact that. And also, I think, too, of what Matt did with Vestiges that I really love as well, is baking storytelling directly into a magic item that its states that it awakens into are a reflection of the progress of the character in relation and often in relation to the values of the object itself. Right. Or in the act of its creation. And obviously, there are some vestiges that don't have the. There's some of them that came up in Divergence that are a static stat block, but that title they have is great. So we did not mean to be confusing. We are not. In the next arc, gonna have a Charlton Heston moment where you guys see Whitestone and go, what did you do.

[Robbie]

That could be confusing in any way? Look, I'm so worked up about it. I'm spilling coffee on my. When I saw the same thing on Live, and I'm screaming in my phone, it was like, he was so clear. It's not actually a messenger. Divergence, dog.

[Brennan]

You cannot use capitalized terms. People are, people are. They're gonna get psyched, man. And to everyone who got psyched, I see you. I understand in the future, I will not use searchable terms, but the analog.

[Whitney]

Being just that it will grow with me. Correct. I'm very excited about that, especially because it's got some pretty emotional. I'm feeling pretty awakened myself. And there's a couple questions on here just regarding the knife, so I'll lump them together. Cadigan. Robbie. Why was Cadigan so aggressive about tyranny? Stealing a knife. Can a bitch live?

[Robbie]

That's none of your business.

[Whitney]

I really thought that we were gonna get an answer.

[Robbie]

No, it was just. Thank you.

[Laura Kasimir]

I have theories.

[Robbie]

I'm sure you do.

[Sam Riegel]

What's your theory?

[Travis]

Spill it.

[Whitney]

I don't want to, because what if.

[Laura Kasimir]

I get it right? And Robbie was like, no, you revealed my backstory right now.

[Brennan]

Oh, and then Robbie changes his backstory like they did on Lost.

[Robbie]

No, I. I did not expect the reaction to be that visceral either. That. Just go back to our earlier points.

[Whitney]

I love to yell at women.

[Robbie]

I do. It's true.

[Brennan]

Such a trap to play a demon and then be like, as a woman.

[Robbie]

Literally demonic, who's a new lovable fan favorite that I can yell at.

[Brennan]

This will endear me to them.

[Robbie]

No, there is this theater idea, which is this peripheral acknowledgement of the audience's existence and it's the reverse of a willing suspension of disbelief. Right. It's where we're in the audience, and we watch the thing, and we know it's not real, but we can still invest in it. And it's the same thing that happens in really good acting in theater when you're in the moment and enjoying it. And if you don't think, there's a tiny voice in the back of my head screaming, oh, my God, you're yelling at her, oh, my God, they're gonna hate you.

[Whitney]

I loved it.

[Robbie]

I loved it, but I just. It felt right. And it came from a. I'll tell you this. I'll answer your question this way. It came from a place of honesty and morality, for lack of a better word, that I don't feel bad about. But the idea that he handled it and that I handled it in that moment poorly is just fine, because people aren't good at those things, especially not always. They're gonna fail. They're gonna be overly aggressive. They're gonna behave in ways that. And if we're scared of portraying those kinds of emotions, you have to let characters fail 100%. And it probably wasn't the right way to handle that situation, but the thing that was done was right, and the way that he did it was poor, and I'm okay with it.

[Whitney]

Well, it was so effective because it was the first time we really got to see, like, oh, Kadigan's got some really. He's got a really strict moral compass.

[Robbie]

And it mattered to me. Or it mattered to him.

[Guest/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Brennan]

All the.

[Robbie]

Throughout.

[Brennan]

I'll say this. The improv teacher in me knows that Cadigan's reaction is what Whitney, as a storyteller, was looking for.

[Whitney]

Yes.

[Robbie]

Oh, good.

[Brennan]

Right. Because if you come out and do something that's like, Whitney's making a choice to do something demonic, to be like, oh, my God, you love that. I have to take that. And if we. If everyone at that table was like, cool, like, nice job, Whit. Good choice, and moved on, Whitney would go, you've made me look like you all think I'm an idiot. You're like, you know what I'm saying? Guess Whitney thinks stealing's okay. Leave it unremarked on and then move on. You really throw your scene partner under a bus by you going, not okay. Then the person who made the demon choice gets the reaction that a demon should get, right? That, like, you have that moment where you go, like, oh, that's unacceptable. And you're like, yeah, great. Someone is acknowledging Right. That I. And especially for Cadogan to do it, who hadn't had. I think that was the first moment, too, where you see this guy who's like, oh, like, I showed up in Dalmachia. And then for him to be, like, unacceptable. It was, like, such a swing from him that it fleshed out tyranny and Kadogan at the same time.

[Whitney]

Yes. He's so devil may care until that moment. And devil do care.

[Brennan]

It would be like Han Solo being like, the chore wheel is not being.

[Robbie]

People are fucking up, but a lot of people at the table in that moment, like, we're protesting and not. I think you had said something actively about to do that. But then, like, you don't want to suppress another player's choices, you know, so it's a tough spot to be above table, too. So. Yeah.

[Whitney]

In that moment, Cadogan became Tyranny's father, and I love that. And then that was reinforced much later. Not Daddy.

[Laura Kasimir]

Okay.

[Whitney]

I'm choosing the language. And to your point, it's so correct that, like, if you want to watch a story where people articulate their feelings explicitly and plainly, watch a Wes Anderson movie. Like, watch a. Watch anything besides dd, because it's not. No one in the world is perfect. And you make character choices.

[Travis]

Wes Anderson D and D campaign.

[Brennan]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

Actually, aesthetics. The map is very, very.

[Laura Kasimir]

In a perfect little rose.

[Whitney]

The same.

[Brennan]

Distribute our healing potions evenly. Can we agree to that?

[Whitney]

This is also. I'll just say this quickly, because I feel like we've spent a lot of time on the knife. For me, what did Tyranny feel getting the knife from Katigan, and how did she feel stealing it? I mean, listen, she's learning that she gets a thrill from certain things, and they're not good, and they're in direct defiance of this community she's building, and that's a tough spot to be. But getting the knife from Cadigan was such a lovely affirming, like, oh, maybe I do belong here. Although, you know, don't get your hopes up. You know, that's the thing. It's such a. It was such a great conversation to me, because you're like. You have such. You have autonomy in deciding the type of person you want to be. And Do I?

[Travis]

We'll find out.

[Whitney]

I don't know. We'll find out.

[Laura Kasimir]

Let's see.

[Travis]

Whitney, you're doing great.

[Whitney]

Thank you so much for running this.

[Travis]

Show and answering your own questions. Could you also answer Travis's questions?

[Whitney]

There's none on here for Travis.

[Laura Kasimir]

Oh, that's why he didn't come tonight, Sam. Oh, he was gonna come, but nobody cares.

[Robbie]

Yeah, you were 86.

[Sam Riegel]

Sorry.

[Whitney]

Sorry, Sam. Travis died. For the record, I did write Travis question what's happening right now? And then found out he wasn't coming.

[Laura Kasimir]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

Which was frustrating. Thank you, the Lord. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.

[Robbie]

What's the name of the first episode of this show gonna be?

[Brennan]

Does it have one of the tailgate? Yes.

[Robbie]

Okay, good.

[Whitney]

Tailgate, episode one. Robbie, you're the king of a mysterious backstory. Can you give us a hint as to what's going on with the doll?

[Robbie]

Oh, it's a man and a wolf.

[Sam Riegel]

Come on.

[Whitney]

Is he the doll?

[Brennan]

The doll.

[Robbie]

Oh, the doll. I thought you said the dog.

[Whitney]

I know.

[Robbie]

I just said the dog. The dwoll. You said the doll.

[Whitney]

The Dwell doll predicted a question.

[Brennan]

The way you breathed it, for a second, every gear in my brain shut down. Cause you're like, what's with the doll? And you're like, a man and a wolf. As though, like, man and a wolf are gonna throw that doll 10 out of 10 times. Okay, you know what a man and a wolf get up to? It's Hawking doll.

[Robbie]

I don't know, man. I don't know. He saw something he did, like, and it made him angry and sad.

[Laura Kasimir]

I have a question. Are you ever going to reveal your backstory?

[Travis]

Nope.

[Robbie]

I don't know if it's necessary. I don't know if it's necessary. It hasn't become necessary. Can you.

[Travis]

In the next game that we play, can you just role play a little bit? Like, Cadigan goes in a corner and writes some stuff down on a piece of paper. That way, if you die and we don't hear your backstory, we can go through your body and be like, there's a letter.

[Brennan]

There's a letter.

[Whitney]

Are you talking about me dying in.

[Robbie]

Real life, Robbie Damon.

[Sam Riegel]

No.

[Brennan]

No.

[Robbie]

You're okay. Because I gave my backstory to Brenna.

[Laura Kasimir]

So characters could die at any moment, all the time.

[Sam Riegel]

And then we.

[Travis]

We won't know. Our characters won't know. But if we find a letter on his dead body, that explains who he is and what he was.

[Robbie]

That's not how life works.

[Whitney]

That's not how life works.

[Robbie]

But I want to know if I. I'm a lone man. If I die, my secrets go with me. It's sad, right?

[Whitney]

That's not true. There's a wolf. We could figure it out.

[Travis]

Yeah, we can talk. Speak with dead. Kill the wolf, and then speak with dead.

[Brennan]

If Tyranny or Thimble or Wicked finds out that Cadigan chucked that doll, are you gonna reprimand him like he did for the night shift? Okay, don't worry.

[Robbie]

The Internet reprimanded me enough for retconning Brendan's beautifully pristine dolls, and they're like, what do you mean, one of them's rotten? It's one. They're 25 years old. It's probably one is. Let me have a one RP moment.

[Brennan]

In the first three episodes. I have no problem with you grabbing narrative rain. If you want to make a rotten doll in that helm, that's your business. I say yes. And, motherfucker, I'm saying, for a guy who's out here chucking dolls left and right, we came over the top hard.

[Robbie]

On the night we found something. Well, that's why I did it in secret.

[Travis]

I think you should make it. I think you should commit to it. And every time we see any dolls or anything small, just throw them. Just can't stand it.

[Robbie]

You're in trouble.

[Laura Kasimir]

Okay.

[Whitney]

Speaking of Laura being in trouble, Segue, what was it like losing a memory of Thiazi? He's like, no. And also, Robbie, I don't even know.

[Laura Kasimir]

And then you said, I'm gonna remind you. And then you just never said it again. I don't have it.

[Whitney]

I could die tomorrow. I'm down.

[Robbie]

If it's ever apropos, then I'll have.

[Whitney]

To look in your pockets after this.

[Robbie]

You're a bunch of satisfaction junkies.

[Travis]

Does Cataclysm.

[Robbie]

You want your backstory and your memories right out of the gate?

[Travis]

You know the memory she lost?

[Robbie]

Yeah. Yeah, you told me.

[Laura Kasimir]

We said it out loud. I was saying it out loud. And then she took it as it was happening.

[Robbie]

Yeah, I have it.

[Travis]

That's so sad.

[Laura Kasimir]

So sad.

[Travis]

Why are you so cruel and mean?

[Brennan]

The audience is more endeared to characters going through hard times than easy times. So it's not my fault. It's actually the viewer's fault at home.

[Travis]

Wow.

[Brennan]

I didn't make up how stories work. I think that's on us. That's on us as a species, really.

[Whitney]

Okay, I've got a question for Sam and Laura. Wick and Thimble had a difficult working relationship, you could say, during these travels. That is a way to put it. How are they feeling towards each other now? And how are you guys feeling towards each other?

[Travis]

I think Wick thinks that everything's fine. They made up.

[Laura Kasimir]

No, honestly, I think Thimble is realizing that Wick's Intentions are pure.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Laura Kasimir]

Even if the things that come out of his dumb mouth are dumb. Yeah.

[Whitney]

I mean, good intent doesn't get you a lot if your head is on the chopping block, if you're being stalked and pursued by enemies.

[Laura Kasimir]

Sure. But it's rare, I think, in her past life to find anybody that with everything that her and Thiazi did, to find someone that's, like, pure of intent, that actually wants to do good and be good.

[Brennan]

Yeah.

[Laura Kasimir]

It's like, oh, that's why, like, it's like, you can't possibly. That can't be real. And she's like realizing, oh, that's real.

[Travis]

I think Wick around Thimble is just like, you know, when you. In high school, when you talked to the super, super popular girl or whatever. Not that he's, like, in love with her or obsessed with her or anything.

[Laura Kasimir]

It's just like, are you secretly alone?

[Travis]

No. I mean, no, that's not what I meant to say. Oh, God. But I think he's just. He just doesn't know quite how. He keeps messing up around her. He doesn't know how to. Every time he tries to make it better, he makes it worse.

[Whitney]

She's so intimidating. She's like the captain of every team, like the lacrosse team. She's just.

[Robbie]

In his daily life, pre campaign beginning shenanigans, that Wick would be one to be surrounded by, like, sycophants.

[Travis]

And he was only put in situations where he could succeed, I think. Like, he was, you know, if there was a. If there was a big sermon event or whatever, other people would do the first 56 minutes of it, and he would be brought out for the last three minutes to just say his speech. And everyone would applaud.

[Whitney]

During combat, people are just like, oh. Oh, my God. You're so strong. Wow. What a punch.

[Travis]

He was never put in a position where he could really fail. So, yeah, this is all new.

[Brennan]

There's also, I think, something really beautiful in Wick's journey, which we're seeing right away, which is. It takes a tremendous amount of moral character to reject something that is very dear to you. If you're like, oh, this thing that I thought was true is a lie, well, I have to reject it on principle, and that's fine. But there are other forces than just ideology that compel a person to do bad things or stay in a bad organization. And I think some of what we see with Wick is it's like, okay, the Candescent creed was made up by my grandmother, the foetarch and this is all manipulative and bad, and we're hurting people out here. Okay, I need another organization that will let me comment at the top. Cause that's all I know how to do. And you go, there is none. And you're like, I don't have any other skill set or any other where. And what do you mean? Everyone's gonna dislike me and distrust me. Everyone in the bad place is nice to me and says, I'm a good, good boy. If I join the good guys, you're all gonna look at me, what, with suspicion. This is awful. You know, like, you see that those that deal deprogramming, for lack of a better word, is that the ideological part or the conviction or the principled part is just step one. The step after that of, okay, I'm a house cat. Where do I go? Now? I have to learn to be in the rain on the ground. Like, this is fucking awful. So it really is, I think. Kudos to Sam as a player and as a storyteller for taking this arc to go on this big adventure and still have wicked go. Oh, I've taken this first heroic step. And taking the first step means the door is right here still, like, this is a journey of a thousand miles, and I'm just getting started. It's awesome. It's really cool.

[Laura Kasimir]

Yeah.

[Whitney]

Well, speaking of Wick, that queued me up for a great one because he's had a lot of new experiences with his body. You could say it as sort of the second puberty is happening. How does he feel?

[Robbie]

You could say that.

[Whitney]

How does he feel about all the magical things that are happening to him? Is he intrigued? Is he scared?

[Travis]

Boy, he is going through some changes. I think he is. I think he's very conflicted. He is happy to be able to do some of these new things with his. With his magic and with his abilities to help people and to help his new friends and stuff like that, and to protect, hopefully, tyranny and the others. But at the same time, he knows that these powers now sort of come from a dark place, a bad place. And so I think with every spell that he casts, especially ones that hurt people, he's like, I'm using magic that isn't mine, that has been stolen, and it's bad magic, and I'm using it to hurt people. And, yes, it's sort of for a good reason, but it just. It comes with guilt. There's a lot of Catholic, Mormon, Jewish guilt in everything he does.

[Brennan]

You know.

[Travis]

Which he'll just have to get over or get past.

[Whitney]

I love the way you danced around it in the Wraith by doing color spray to mark the undead.

[Travis]

I've been trying not to hurt anybody the whole first 11 episodes.

[Whitney]

It's really impressive.

[Robbie]

Can I ask you a question?

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Is his faith growing or waning?

[Travis]

Faith? Oh, boy. Just in the world.

[Robbie]

I think in the Creed.

[Travis]

Oh. I mean, in the Creed, it's definitely waned, but. But like I said as we were playing, there's something out there that I think if there's nothing to believe in, then he's got. Then he's dead. He's got nothing.

[Laura Kasimir]

If there's nothing to believe in, why are these miraculous things happening to you?

[Travis]

I know. I think that's. Deep down in his heart of hearts, he does believe that there's something to believe in. He just doesn't quite know what it is anymore and thinks that maybe there's clues in what he's learned or clues out there that he can find, but there's something true in the world. He just has to find out what it is.

[Whitney]

This is a great segue to a question for Brennan that I see on here, which is, how difficult is it to balance showing the good and bad of the Candescent Creed's work? I loved the Candle Feast and just sort of getting the. Well, it's not all bad. Like, there's. People need something to believe in. So what was your process like, discovering that balance?

[Brennan]

I think that. Well, that's a really lovely question. Showing moral nuance is how you make sure that. I think that, like, the point of storytelling or the point of, like, any kind of art in general is to try to talk about your experience of life in the world as faithfully as possible. And I do sort of subscribe to, like, the first moment you misrepresent the feelings or argument of your opponent is where you slip into making propaganda, where you're like, if you don't. In other words, if there's something you disagree with and you start to reframe it and straw man it and go, like, let's make a less compelling version of their argument, or, let's make a less compelling version of this other ideology, I think that you betray your own faith in your own notions of the world. Right. Like, if you think that you're right, you shouldn't have to misrepresent what people you disagree with are saying. And I think that within the Candescent Creed as something that's, like, within the world of Ahriman, there are certain, like, constants that feel true to life to me, which is that any large enough institution will have tremendous privilege and power for the people at the top. And therefore people who, as a core tenet of their personality, seek position, privilege and power will be drawn to that. Life is very complicated, and there's lots of different kinds of people everywhere. But if you're pressed for time, being skeptical of people in power, not a bad guideline to go by as like, hey, there might be a degree of moral nuance here, but I only got 10 minutes, so you might be up to something that's not a bad way to go through life. And I think that there's a certain degree of, like, if I had a whole year to get to know you, maybe, but you seem pretty fucking bad. So I think within the candescent creed, a lot of it is what brings people to that ideology. And if you look at, like, the core of, like, Wick's immediate family, we haven't really gotten to spend any time with Iris. But the one memory we saw of Iris, of her comforting, it's also, Iris is the one person that's not actually blood related to Yanessa that we've met. Right. Like you and Zabani, your sister, and Goddard, your father, are all direct family.

[Travis]

Better than I do.

[Brennan]

Such a wild move to make a whole holy book and then be like, I don't watch our show. Be like, here's the holy book. Brennan, your problem. But, yeah, I think that the. But then looking at the common stuff, too, you go like, yeah, the people that are saying, like, forget the fairies are actually building these anti zombie. What do you do with that level of complexity? The zombie walls are good and the killing the fairies is bad, and it's the same people doing both. And you know, it's like. That just feels like we haven't heard.

[Laura Kasimir]

The zombie side of the story, though. Brennan, we haven't.

[Brennan]

There's a zombie out there. Being like when you destroyed the wraith tree.

[Whitney]

All right, we only have, like a couple minutes left, but I want to ask everybody a question. And then we go on to Beacon Biz. Oh, last question. It says, listen, I'm gonna ask everybody a question, and it's gonna be rapid fire. Sam, where is Wick putting his faith now in his book. Great question.

[Brennan]

Got him.

[Whitney]

Robbie, how do you describe Cadigan's relationship with Wulfric? And how was meeting the hounds? The king?

[Robbie]

That's my dog. Those were other dogs.

[Whitney]

Okay, great. Laura, were you expecting Thimble to be such a stone cold killer and does it really feel right to her? Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

[Brennan]

Your build fucking rules. There is a lot of. I mean, I, like, put it together in my head. I was like, wait, a flying swashbuckler? Oh, no.

[Whitney]

She's like, wait, that's an option.

[Brennan]

That's. I should. Pow. Yeah.

[Whitney]

Question for me. Why am I doing disguise self? Brennan recommended it, and it sounded cool.

[Brennan]

And.

[Whitney]

Why did I choose the form of a young girl? Honestly, I wanted to get a reaction from Cadigan. Cause I think he lost his daughter. I was trying to be. But then I like the idea of her being sort of like, never having gone to have a childhood. And Brennan. My iPad stopped scrolling. So what was the inspiration for the Dogs of Timony?

[Brennan]

Ah, the Hounds of the King. I really love the idea of a big part of the old path being reincarnation and the idea of what you do. A big part of Ahriman's lore is all about the loss of these afterlives. That the seven Shapers each had an afterlife that souls would go to and that the underworld expands with these souls because it's people who anticipated getting to be themselves forever. Right. Like, I don't have to reincarnate. I don't have to move on. And thinking about how Druids would try to ease people through to this idea of, like, no, we come back over and over and over again and thinking about these different ways of meeting in the. In the middle of having a bunch of knights that were like, I swore an oath to serve in realms beyond, to be ever loyal to my king. I understand that that can't happen anymore because we've overthrown the gods, but how do I keep this promise? And the idea of these Druids finding this way to keep this promise in a new way and being like, we can have you come back. And to me, we didn't get into it on the show, but the idea of, like, why Hounds is a. Hounds have a specific meaning to the people of Timony, just as a symbol, but also specifically to King Augustus, who was raised by a kennel master. And the idea of something about the loyalty of Hounds being a vessel that could call out to the souls of these knights.

[Whitney]

I mean, a fan favorite for sure, and definitely a highlight for us. We love those doggies. We love the dogs. Well, that brings us to the end of our time here at Tailgate. If you're watching on YouTube or Twitch, thank you for having some tea with us, and we'll see you again very soon after the Seekers arc. But if you're watching us on Beacon. Don't go anywhere. Don't get up to pee. We're heading straight into the nightcap, where we can open up the conversation to our Beacon Bits on our exclusive Beacon Discord. Sam's going to show whole. We'll see you there.

[Laura Kasimir]

I like that pillow.

[Travis]

That's all for this festive frivolity.

[Sam Riegel]

Thank you so much for being here today. You're cordially invited to our exclusive after party. Head over to Beacon TV for the nightcap and hear the cast answer questions directly from our Beacon Bits. Have something you'd like to ask our adventurers? Become a Beacon member at Beacon TV and join us live for the next tailgate to get your burning questions answered by the cast themselves. We'll see you next time the tables turn.