Critics at Large | The New Yorker

Episode: After “Wicked,” What Do We Want from the Musical?
Date: November 27, 2025
Hosts: Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Frye, Alexandra Schwartz

Overview

This episode of Critics at Large delves into the cultural phenomenon of the “Wicked” film franchise and, more broadly, examines the current state and future of the musical as both a film and stage genre. Through lively, candid conversation, the hosts debate what audiences seem to want from musicals today, what defines this unique art form, and which past and present works resonate most for them. The discussion balances personal anecdotes, historical perspective, and a critical look at both the successes and pitfalls of contemporary musicals.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Phenomenon of “Wicked”

• Wicked Part 1 was a blockbuster, winning Oscars and dominating pop culture with songs like Defying Gravity. The conversation is prompted by the release of “Wicked Part 2.”
• Hosts reflect on the enduring appeal and polarization around movie musicals, mentioning other recent adaptations like Wonka and Mean Girls.
  • “It does feel...that the musical as a form is in a bit of an unstable place.” (Alex Schwartz, 01:18)
• On Broadway, the genre is caught between nostalgia-driven jukebox musicals and IP adaptations. Original works struggle to find footing (02:00–02:45).

2. The Hosts’ Personal Relationship to Musicals

• Naomi Frye is "historically not a lover of musicals" but admits to a few exceptions (02:54–03:04).
• Vinson Cunningham confesses to a soft spot, having performed in high school productions like Little Shop of Horrors (03:08–03:37).
• Alex Schwartz has a background in musicals and shares a fond anecdote about performing in The Rocky Horror Picture Show (03:39–04:08).

3. Reviewing the “Wicked” Movie: Performances, Pacing, and Emotional Resonance

• Frye’s take:
  • Found the film “objectively, way too long” but was “pleasantly surprised” by Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo's sensitive performances.
  • Praises the film’s “gentle” heart, especially embodied in the character Dr. Dillamond, the talking goat—whose mistreatment metaphorically explores fascism in Oz (05:11–07:49).
  • “I felt a beating heart, which I was surprised about… That said, way too long. Lots of boring parts.” (Nomi Frye, 07:34–07:53)
• Cunningham’s praise:
  • Embraces the epic length and emotional maximalism, drawing parallels to The Sound of Music.
  • Highlights how the film transforms internal longing into sweeping landscapes and grand images (08:00–10:40).
  • “What Chu does so skillfully… is turn that into landscape and turn that into image… emotional topography… written on the landscape.” (Vinson Cunningham, 09:26–10:16)
• Schwartz’s criticism:
  • Found the setting (Shiz University) tedious and missed the magical escapism of Oz proper.
  • “We are all absolutely stranded at the least interesting place on earth. Hogwarts Light, Shiz University... When are they going to let me out of this horrible place?” (Alex Schwartz, 13:01)
• Despite mixed critical feelings, they note the film’s broad audience appeal (“people are loving Wicked... Team Vincent”), and dissect what accounts for its emotional impact (13:44–14:48).

4. On Performance and Subtext: Homoerotic Energy and Comic Chemistry

• The co-leads exhibit palpable chemistry, prompting Cunningham to read the Glinda–Elphaba relationship as “totally homoerotic” (15:23–16:29).
• Schwartz inserts a clip of Ben Shapiro dismissing such interpretations, which sparks a pointed reflection on modern critical and audience response (16:44–18:21).
  • “These girls are hot for each other and they don’t understand…” (Vinson Cunningham, 16:23)
• Discussion expands to why people connect so strongly to Wicked: big emotions, friendship, and the “I want” song structure.

5. Comparing “Wicked” to Other Musicals and American Cultural Context

• Frye relates Wicked to Frozen—both focus on close, emotionally charged female relationships (19:13–20:03).
• Cunningham recalls the Disney Renaissance as a golden age for musicals, emphasizing the “I want” song’s role in self-definition and catharsis for contemporary audiences (20:03–21:01).

6. What Do We Want from Musicals?

• Cunningham’s “perfect musical” is The Sound of Music, which he sees as the ultimate artform Gesamtkunstwerk, blending all the performing arts for maximal emotional impact (22:39–23:30).
  • “To make every scene, frame, moment charged with what you feel inside… That to me requires a kind of maximalism.” (Vinson Cunningham, 24:11)
• Frye values “heightened realism”—fantastical stories grounded in reality or subculture, like the movie version of Hair (24:30–25:32).
• Schwartz theorizes that musicals resonate when they let the audience imaginatively “inhabit” the world and emotions of the central characters (26:09–27:00).

7. Brief History of the American Musical (27:00–28:30)

• Early revues focused on spectacle, then shifted toward narrative with Showboat (1927) and the story-driven, character-rich shows of Rodgers & Hammerstein.
• Musicals diversified in the 1970s with darkness and complexity from Fosse and Sondheim.

8. The Modern Broadway Landscape

• Broadway is largely divided between jukebox shows (Mamma Mia!, Jersey Boys), adaptation musicals (Mean Girls), and rare breakout innovations (Hamilton), often with a fiercely passionate, young fan base (29:16–30:28).
• Schwartz positions Wicked as closer in spirit to the “power musicals” of the '80s (e.g., Andrew Lloyd Webber) than to recent bold innovations.

9. The Musical’s Evolving Sound and Role

• Cunningham and Frye agree contemporary musicals have a recognizable, perhaps limiting “musicalese”—big vocal acrobatics, R&B stylings, “slick” harmonies, echoing trends from American Idol and Christian contemporary pop (30:55–32:20).
• Frye wonders about the next evolution of the form; Cunningham highlights Michael R. Jackson’s A Strange Loop and Teeth as promisingly ambitious, “R-rated” musicals that tackle adult themes directly (32:55–34:58).

10. Looking Forward: Sweet & Sour, New Innovations

• Schwartz praises Kimberly Akimbo, an offbeat, bittersweet recent musical that balances heart and melancholy—a quality she links to the enduring legacy of Sondheim (35:07–36:08).

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On “Wicked’s” success and formula:

  • “It is there to cause feelings, big feelings.” (Vincent Cunningham, 18:32)

• On the “I want” song and American identity:

  • “This thing that Americans today struggle with so much, which is, like, identity formation. How do you deal with desire and how do you express it…?” (Vinson Cunningham, 20:03)

• On musical maximalism:

  • “That to me is the point of it… requires a kind of maximalism.” (Vinson Cunningham, 24:11)

• On the limits of current musical sound:

  • “There has emerged a kind of musicalese… It’s like R and B style vocals, very slick harmonization…” (Vinson Cunningham, 30:55)

• On evolving the form:

  • “There is a deeper engagement with realism… a musical that’s not only like an issue musical but is trying to be a tool of, like, a cultural vanguard.” (Vinson Cunningham, 34:35)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Wicked’s Cultural Impact: 00:36–01:58
• Musicals in Crisis? 01:59–02:45
• Hosts’ Personal Histories: 02:46–04:08
• Wicked Review: Performances & Politics: 05:11–07:49
• Emotional Maximalism and Visuals: 08:00–10:40
• Plot Summary & Critiques: 10:40–13:44
• Subtext & Homoerotic Energy: 15:03–16:29
• Ben Shapiro & Culture War Reactions: 16:44–18:21
• Emotion-Centric Appeal: 18:32–19:13
• Disney, Identity, “I want” Songs: 19:13–21:01
• Dream Musicals & History: 22:39–28:30
• Modern Broadway Patterns: 28:30–30:28
• Musical “Homogenization” / “Musicalese”: 30:55–32:20
• Next-Gen Musicals, Innovations: 32:55–34:58
• Kimberly Akimbo, Sondheim’s Legacy: 35:07–36:08
• Hosts’ Go-To Shower Songs: 36:46–37:32

Show Tunes That Stick: The Hosts' Shower Songs

• Vincent: Wicked's “o-o-o-o-ing” (36:46)
• Nomi: “The Age of Aquarius” from Hair (37:02)
• Alex: “Good Morning Starshine” to her son (37:21)

Conclusion

The trio’s conversation is an entertaining, searching exploration of what musicals mean in the current landscape—where nostalgia, emotional catharsis, new storytelling forms, and spectacle jostle for dominance. Even as they differ on their affection for “Wicked,” the hosts come to agree: a great musical should allow audiences to viscerally inhabit another world, experience maximal emotion, and—ideally—leave the theater (or theater of the mind) singing.