After “Wicked,” What Do We Want from the Musical?

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker
Episode: After “Wicked,” What Do We Want from the Musical?
Release Date: December 12, 2024

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Critics at Large from The New Yorker, host Cho Minardi, along with co-hosts Nomi Fry and Vincent Cunningham, delve into the evolving landscape of musical theater, sparked by the recent release of the highly anticipated film adaptation of the Broadway musical Wicked. The conversation weaves through their personal experiences with musicals, critiques of current trends, and speculations on the future trajectory of the genre.

Wicked Part 1 Review

Performances and Reception

The discussion begins with an analysis of the Wicked movie adaptation, starring Ariana Grande as Glinda and Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba. Cho Minardi introduces the film as a two-hour and forty-minute Part One, highlighting its significant cultural impact despite its length.

Cho Minardi [02:09]: "Wicked is, of course, the much anticipated movie adaptation of the Broadway musical."

Nomi Fry shares her initial reservations due to her historical disinterest in musicals but acknowledges being pleasantly surprised by the performances.

Nomi Fry [07:14]: "I was pleasantly surprised, first of all, at the performances... both delivered pretty sensitive performances."

Vincent Cunningham praises the emotional depth of the film, noting the strong chemistry between Grande and Erivo.

Vincent Cunningham [17:22]: "They have incredible chemistry together. They are a great comedy team."

Length and Pacing

A significant point of critique revolves around the film's extended runtime. Nomi Fry emphasizes the movie's length as a detracting factor, suggesting that forty minutes could have been trimmed without missing essential content.

Nomi Fry [06:26]: "I think it's just, like, objectively, way too long. Like, like 40 minutes could have lopped off like a no miss."

Cho Minardi concurs, expressing frustration with the film's pacing and structural decisions.

Cho Minardi [15:28]: "...people are loving Wicked. They're on Team Vincent."

Themes and Analytical Insights

The hosts explore the underlying themes of Wicked, particularly the portrayal of deranged leaders and the film's engagement with political motifs.

Cho Minardi [01:35]: "...they do both feature kind of deranged leaders. But that's a story for another time."

Nomi Fry discusses the character of Dr. Dillamond, a talking goat professor, highlighting the film's subtle commentary on fascism and victimization.

Nomi Fry [09:39]: "...the talking animals kind of being targeted. And Dr. Dillamond... is the victim of this kind of fascism."

Vincent Cunningham appreciates how the movie transforms the psychological aspects of musical theater into visual and auditory elements, enhancing the emotional resonance.

Vincent Cunningham [10:32]: "What Chu does so skillfully, I think is... turn that into landscape and turn that into image... defining a character through song."

Comparison to Other Musicals

Disneyfication vs. Realism

The conversation shifts to compare Wicked with other musicals like Frozen and The Sound of Music, examining the balance between fantastical elements and emotional authenticity.

Vincent Cunningham [22:23]: "...the Sound of Music, like just those hillsides and all these things that just deeply echo the emotional atmospherics."

Nomi Fry draws parallels between the emotional storytelling in Wicked and Frozen, noting how both explore complex relationships and identity formation.

Nomi Fry [21:15]: "...the strength of emotion, and the kind of ability to follow the course of a relationship between two very different women."

Future Directions in Musicals

The hosts discuss emerging trends in musicals, touching on productions like Michael R. Jackson's A Strange Loop and Teeth, which push the boundaries of traditional musical theater by incorporating explicit themes and diverse narratives.

Vincent Cunningham [46:10]: "...it's like an R-rated musical, the musical that is not only like an issue musical but is trying to be a tool of like a cultural vanguard."

Cho Minardi underscores the importance of maintaining the emotional and artistic integrity of musicals while embracing innovation.

Cho Minardi [37:25]: "Maybe the reason why you feel that way about the particular musicals you do is because... the songs put you directly inside a character."

Emilia Perez Review

The episode also features a critique of Emilia Perez, a musical film centered on a Mexican cartel leader undergoing gender transition. Directed by Jacques Odiar, the film blends Spanish dialogue with musical elements, drawing comparisons to telenovelas and exploring the complexities of identity and transformation.

Vincent Cunningham [25:38]: "...composers how the sing a song directly on life and emotional expression."

Challenging the traditional American musical format, the hosts appreciate Emilia Perez for its raw portrayal of intense emotional experiences.

Cho Minardi [38:13]: "...the songs become crucial to character, to character development, to plot development... deeper insight into what is happening."

Discussion on the Future of Musicals

The trio debates the direction in which musicals are headed, weighing the influence of blockbuster adaptations like Hamilton against more avant-garde productions. They ponder whether future musicals will continue to blend mainstream appeal with niche, subcultural elements or veer towards experimental storytelling.

Vincent Cunningham [44:31]: "...A Strange Loop... graphic sex scene... revenge thriller of the vagina against these predatory men."

Nomi Fry emphasizes the potential for musicals to serve as platforms for cultural dialogue and innovation, moving beyond conventional narratives.

Nomi Fry [36:23]: "...all of them have some kind of subcultural element to them... could be more generally said about the musical form."

Final Thoughts and Conclusions

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on their personal connections to musicals and the genre's capacity to evoke profound emotional responses. They express a desire for musicals that balance sweetness with complexity, allowing for both soaring heights and poignant depths.

Nomi Fry [35:56]: "...the musical Hair... capturing specific moments in time with heightened realism."

Cho Minardi concludes by underscoring the enduring appeal of musicals that resonate on both personal and societal levels, hinting at future discussions on the genre's evolution.

Cho Minardi [38:13]: "...the reason why you feel that way about the particular musicals you do is because the songs put you directly inside a character."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Cho Minardi [02:09]: "Wicked is, of course, the much anticipated movie adaptation of the Broadway musical."

• Nomi Fry [07:14]: "I was pleasantly surprised, first of all, at the performances... both delivered pretty sensitive performances."

• Vincent Cunningham [17:22]: "They have incredible chemistry together. They are a great comedy team."

• Nomi Fry [06:26]: "I think it's just, like, objectively, way too long. Like, like 40 minutes could have lopped off like a no miss."

• Vincent Cunningham [10:32]: "What Chu does so skillfully, I think is... turn that into landscape and turn that into image... defining a character through song."

Conclusion

This episode of Critics at Large offers a comprehensive exploration of the current state and future possibilities of musical theater. Through thoughtful analysis and spirited discussion, Cho Minardi, Nomi Fry, and Vincent Cunningham provide listeners with insightful perspectives on what audiences desire from musicals today and how the genre can continue to evolve and thrive in a rapidly changing cultural landscape.

Transcript

[Cho Minardi]

Hi, it's Cho Minardi and I'm the co host of the run through and also head of editorial content at British Vogue. In case you haven't heard, Vogue just launched our all new app. Through the app you can chat with me and other editors on everything happening in Fashion Shop editor favorites and vote on the best looks of the season. Get real time updates now so you never miss a moment. Download the Vogue app today.

[Nomi Fry]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Cho Minardi]

I want the note at the end where it's like, you know, like the air note.

[Nomi Fry]

Wow.

[Cho Minardi]

I knew it would happen. He's defying gravity already. Oh, so exciting.

[Nomi Fry]

This is Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Nomi Fry.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Cho Minardi]

And I'm Alex Schwartz. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Critics, yes. Brace yourselves.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, my goodness.

[Cho Minardi]

We are in the eye of the storm. The holiday movies are coming. I can't even pause for your laughter. It's happening right now.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's happening.

[Cho Minardi]

Last week we did Gladiator 2.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Cho Minardi]

And this week we are pivoting to a film that simply could not be more different. Except that they do both feature kind of deranged leaders. But that's a story for another time. The Barbie to Gladiators. Oppenheimer. Or so we're being told by much marketing. I'm talking, of course, about Wicked.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The best way to bring folks together. Something has changed. Is to give him a real good enemy.

[Nomi Fry]

You're green. I am.

[Cho Minardi]

Wicked is, of course, the much anticipated movie adaptation of the Broadway musical. It stars Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo. And we should be quite clear, this movie, which runs to 2 hours and 40 minutes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, my God.

[Cho Minardi]

Is only part one of Wicked.

[Nomi Fry]

How is that possible?

[Cho Minardi]

Well, in spite of this, audiences are loving it. They are loving Wicked Part 1. Judging by Box office numbers and just from the sheer amount of oxygen Wicked is taking up in the culture right now.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I feel like I've seen every single interview done by Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande. Like, usually the press junket thing works in the way that it should, in that I only really consume one of the interviews. And it's like maybe all right. Yeah. But I just feel like I've seen them just like every single talk that they've done has made its way to me in a way that is sort of uncanny.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. I mean, there's been a lot of tears on this press run. There's been a lot of tears. There's been a lot of touching. There's been memes. Ariana Grande holding Cynthia Erivo's finger.

[Cho Minardi]

Single, I might even say gently stroking.

[Nomi Fry]

Gently stroking her, you know, finger that had these very long nails on, which even made it more kind of distinct that. And perhaps even phallic that Ariana Grande was holding this single finger. The famous interview where the interviewer was telling these two stars that she has seen a lot of people holding space for the lyrics of the number one hit Defying Gravity, whatever that means.

[Cho Minardi]

I know we're in yet a new press cycle about that. I assume that the latest headlines are about them talking about that. Yeah, we're in Wicked's world, and we're trying to live in it. So what I want us to think about is what exactly audiences are responding to in Wicked and what that tells us about the state of musicals more broadly. You know, looking at the world of musicals now, it does feel to me that the musical as a form is in a bit of an unstable place. You know, over the past few months, we've seen several movie musicals in addition to Wicked, and each takes a wildly different approach to the form. And then on Broadway, Broadway, home of the musical, we're stuck between jukebox musicals, which bank on audiences, nostalgia for old hits, and on the other hand, kind of blatant IP grabs in the form of adaptations of beloved movies and things like that. And original ideas and stories are there, but they're getting squeezed. So that's today on critics at Large. What do we want from the musical? All right, just to set expectations here. Where do each of you fall when it comes to musicals? Guess I'm gonna say that Nomi Fry is not a lover of the musical form.

[Nomi Fry]

I am historically, historically not a lover of musicals. But I may surprise you today by name checking a couple of favorites.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay.

[Cho Minardi]

Okay.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, yeah. I mean, honestly, I don't like musicals, but there are some exceptions.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'll say that I harbor kind of a soft place in my heart for musicals. In high school, I was in a couple of them.

[Cho Minardi]

Would you like to. Yeah, tell us more.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, okay. I played the voice of the plant in Little Shop of Hearts.

[Nomi Fry]

No.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So Audrey, too. That was me. Feed Me Seymour up in a High window. While my friend Nick Barash was the body of the plant doing all the ba ba ba ba ba da.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, wow.

[Cho Minardi]

What a career. I am very excited to discuss musicals with you guys because I was quite into musicals as a child. And in my formative years, I was in musicals in high school, I was in an all female production of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. In college, I played Brad. You know, I had some people really, really into Brad. I'll just say that much. I had some admirers. Anyway, the height of this. Just let it go. Know me.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay, okay. Maybe off mic.

[Cho Minardi]

Off mic, we'll come back. No, no, you know. Okay, let's turn to Wicked Part 1. Okay, we're at Wicked. Wicked is directed by John M. Chu, who has directed a number of movie musicals. In the Heights, he did step up.

[Nomi Fry]

3D, and also the Bieber performance movie Never say Never.

[Cho Minardi]

Oh, that's right.

[Vincent Cunningham]

One of the great musicals of our.

[Nomi Fry]

Time, which is actually great.

[Cho Minardi]

Okay, this is an excellent point. So Wicked stars Ariana Grande as Galindaglinda and Cynthia Erivo as Elphaba. I actually never saw Wicked in theaters. I don't know if you guys did.

[Vincent Cunningham]

On Broadway.

[Cho Minardi]

On Broadway, you did.

[Nomi Fry]

I did not.

[Cho Minardi]

So Vincent did Nomi, and I did not. So what did you guys think?

[Nomi Fry]

Okay, so I'm gonna start.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I should say that Nomi is in full Elphaba green right now. I just want to say that she came ready. She came ready to do this.

[Nomi Fry]

What if I'm wearing a witch's hat? Like, you know that pointy hat comes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

In with a big gnarled broom. Sorry. Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay. I am in two minds about this movie.

[Cho Minardi]

Okay?

[Nomi Fry]

I was trying to come to this open and be like, what if I suddenly like it? You know, Especially since people, a lot of people I like, you know, people whose opinions I admire were like, this is amazing. You know, and obviously each person has his or her own story, own history with musicals. But I was open. I didn't love it. I can't emphasize enough how long it is. Like, it was unrealong. Like, there really is, I think, even beyond putting aside my feelings about musicals, I think it's just, like, objectively, way too long. Like, like 40 minutes could have lopped off like a no miss. But I have to say I was pleasantly surprised, first of all, at the performances, you know, I'd never seen. I mean, I know, like, Ariana Grande's music, but I haven't seen her, like, act in anything. And also, Cynthia Riveaux I wasn't familiar with her, and I thought they both delivered pretty sensitive performances, I thought. Which I was surprised about. I felt like it was kind of a gentle movie, which I liked. My favorite character was the talking goat, Dr. Dillamond, and who had, like, glasses. And there's a moment where there's the whole subplot. Oz is kind of turning fascist. You know, there's a kind of, like, fascist strain that is with, like, the animal. The talking animals kind of being targeted. And Dr. Dillamond, the talking goat professor at Shiz University at Chiz. Not Shiz University, but yes, it's called Chiz University, where Elphaba and Glinda are students, is the victim. One of the victims of this kind of fascism. And there's a part where, like, his little, like, glasses, like, fall off his, like, snout. And I was like. I literally gasped. I was like.

[Cho Minardi]

It just seemed like she wasn't expecting that. So that just took it too far.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Those things were perched.

[Nomi Fry]

They were really perched precariously on that. Is it a snout for a goat? What? Is it a muzzle? A muzzle?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I don't know.

[Nomi Fry]

I don't know. But anyway, I have to say that these touches, like, you know, obviously, it's a big movie. It's a big. With grand gestures, but even. But within that, I felt a beating heart, which I was surprised about.

[Cho Minardi]

Wow.

[Nomi Fry]

That said, way too long. Lots of boring parts.

[Cho Minardi]

Vincent, I want to hear what you think, because I already. Nomi's given us much to think about and discuss.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So much.

[Nomi Fry]

Especially the glasses.

[Cho Minardi]

Especially the glasses.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Especially the glasses. I should say that, like, Nomi's focus on Dr. Dillamond is very much on brand this week. You just published a whole piece about the animals of the year. Mudang, et cetera.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, it's true. I do love the animal world.

[Cho Minardi]

But Dr. D didn't make it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Exactly. So Dillman, he came to.

[Nomi Fry]

He was late breaking Animal. Yeah, I was actually closing the piece. As I was watching, I had to text my editor in Amal and say, like, I'm sorry, I can't look at fact checking yet. I'm actually LOL at Wicked.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm looking at this goat. So anyway, thank you for that. I really liked it. I really liked it. I like long movies. I like the epic. And I just thought that it captured what's good about movie musicals, which is taking the logic. The psychological logic of musical theater, which is actually, we can tell a story but have no. We can explode the subtext and make all the subtext into song. Like the sort of I want song that sort of starts to define a character. What Chu does so skillfully, I think is. And I think this accounts for the length as well. Sort of turn that into landscape and turn that into image where. So she's singing the song about I wanna meet the wizard. Oh my God, people are finally gonna look at me as something else.

[Nomi Fry]

Did that really just happen? Have I actually understood this weird quirk I've tried to suppress or hide is.

[Cho Minardi]

A talent that could help me meet the wizard?

[Vincent Cunningham]

And then weirdly, she's like, in Chiz, as this is happening, she's in the university setting as this happens. Suddenly she goes outside and starts running around and all of a sudden she's just like on the sheer edge of some cliff. I'm like, what is the geography here?

[Cho Minardi]

Mm hmm. It's by the White Cliffs of Dover. That's basically where it is.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But she's out on a cliff edge all of a sudden, talking about what she wants. And that, like emotional typography is now all of a sudden written on the landscape.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Like imprinted on all of these like big dramatic images. It made me think of like the Sound of Music, like just like those hillsides and all these things that just like so deeply echo the sort of emotional atmospherics.

[Cho Minardi]

Well, there's. If I may just insert myself for a second here. I want to get in it. I want to tell you guys what I thought, but I also just want to set the listeners up, please. So Wicked takes place. Wicked opens with the death of the Wicked Witch of the West.

[Nomi Fry]

Fellow Ozians, the Wicked Witch of the west is dead.

[Cho Minardi]

We see a kind of melting hiss of a candle having just been snuffed out. And shortly thereafter, all of Oz is in great celebration. They're celebrating that the tyrant is gone.

[Nomi Fry]

The Witch is dead.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah, a tyrant is gone. So there's a lot of singing about this. Glinda arrives. Glinda is sort of asked, weren't you friends with the Wicked Witch once?

[Nomi Fry]

Yes. I mean, I did know her. That is, our paths did cross at school.

[Cho Minardi]

And here we go into the backstory. Shiz University. A truly insane name choice.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, I don't get it.

[Cho Minardi]

That has to be said with a straight face by everyone in this film. At least 500 times.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Cho Minardi]

And Glinda, who at that time is called Galinda, is the popular girl who arrives at school. They have to room together. A rivalry breaks out. And through interpretive dance, at a moment of great shame and distress for Elphaba, they are brought together and end up forming an unlikely friendship and going off to Oz. Vinson.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yes.

[Cho Minardi]

I'm so glad that you love this movie. And I'm not kidding, because so many people are loving this movie and I want to, like, deeply relate to them. And yet I know that you can help them.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Am I the wicked liker in the room? Oh, I love it when this happens.

[Cho Minardi]

I really didn't like Wicked. Okay, I didn't like Wicked. And.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wow, how not.

[Cho Minardi]

Anyway, okay, I liked that scene. Vincent is, of course, singing the final beautiful notes with his gorgeous voice of defying gravity. And yes, I am. Well, one reason is that scene takes 14 minutes. And as Nomi says, this movie is too long. And I just wanna say something about musicals in general, which is the show has got to work. We have to have a crest, a peak, a fall, another crest. Now we have two shows, basically, two different movies. Two different shows. And what this means is that we are all absolutely stranded at the least interesting place on earth. Hogwarts Light. Shiz University. I'm sitting at Shiz, desperate to drop out.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So much shit.

[Cho Minardi]

Desperate. Just when are they going to let me out of this horrible place we're supposed to be in? Oz. The miraculous, wonderful place that most of us know from the 1939 movie the wizard of Oz. You might know it from L. Frank Baum's books. Why are we stuck at Shiz? This has to be the stupidest place in all of Oz. Those feelings notwithstanding, people are loving Wicked. They're on Team Vincent. Or Vincent is on Team them.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yes. Why America? I am on your team.

[Cho Minardi]

Oh, what a hero. That's right after the break on Critics at Large from the New Yorker. On Lipstick on the Rim, we speak with industry insiders, doctors, and the biggest stars to bring you all the facts.

[Nomi Fry]

Become best friends with your hairstylist.

[Cho Minardi]

They're gonna make you look and feel.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So good and you'll just show up as a better you.

[Nomi Fry]

I always wanted to make hoops. Those girls are hard to raise.

[Vincent Cunningham]

They are gonna push all the buttons.

[Nomi Fry]

Just having a community is the best because you can compare stories with your girlfriends.

[Cho Minardi]

Cheers. Listen to Lipstick on the Rim on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts or watch full episodes now on YouTube. So I will just say I'm not coming out here proudly waving my hate flag. And I didn't hate it. I just found it dull.

[Nomi Fry]

You're a bit of a bad girl.

[Cho Minardi]

I'm a bit of a bad girl. I mean, I agree with you, Nomi. I totally agree. I thought the performances were very, very good. Very strong. The singing was super strong. Ariana Grande was funn, which I appreciate.

[Nomi Fry]

She was really funny.

[Vincent Cunningham]

She's really funny.

[Nomi Fry]

She's really funny.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Such a great performance.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Her Galinda is self absorbed, kind of a mean girl, but also just kind of a Tracy flick. All of these internal contradictions which are really like. It's a really well written character and she does it really well. Erivo is just so good at singing.

[Cho Minardi]

She's great at singing.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I just was totally into that. So just the two of them, what they did together was not really explored in the production that I saw, which is the totally homoerotic nature of the relationship between these two women is so apparent in every beat of their relationship.

[Cho Minardi]

In the musical.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No, in the movie that we all watched.

[Nomi Fry]

In the movie.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh. When they're like, I'm getting this feeling when I see you I don't know what it is and then they go into the loathing what is this feeling.

[Nomi Fry]

So sudden and new I felt the moment I laid eyes on you My.

[Cho Minardi]

Pulse is rushing My head is reeling.

[Nomi Fry]

Well, my face is flashing what is this feeling? Serve it as a flame does it have a name?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Y.

[Nomi Fry]

Unadulterated loathing it's just a love.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Song these girls are hot for each other and they don't understand and.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, interesting.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's what it seems. I don't know. That was my reading of this movie so strongly that I was like, they have incredible chemistry together. They are a great comedy team.

[Cho Minardi]

I thought, okay, this is very interesting. I have to make a confession. It's a weird confession to make.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yes.

[Cho Minardi]

Last night when I was looking around for reviews of Wicked, for some reason I ended up watching Ben Shapiro's 24 minute long review of Wicked. Okay. Talking about conservative culture commentator Ben Shapiro, with whom I agree on absolutely nothing. But I was like, oh, wow, he's just giving a straight review of his.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Was it direct to camera?

[Cho Minardi]

Oh, of course, of course.

[Alex Schwartz]

So I know the question you're asking. Am I going to burn Barbies? Am I gonna set Wicked dolls on fire? Am I going to take some sort of bulldozer and run it directly through a model of Oz? Who knows? Actually, here's the thing. The movie's good. The movie's actually quite good.

[Cho Minardi]

So I just found it fascinating. I was like, oh my God, am I gonna end up red pilled and loving Wicked? Is that what's gonna happen to me if I watch Ben Shapiro talk about his own love for Wicked?

[Nomi Fry]

Well, it's one or the other. Right.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You come in here and you're just fucking like Laura Lynn.

[Nomi Fry]

He loved it.

[Cho Minardi]

He really, really liked it.

[Nomi Fry]

What?

[Cho Minardi]

Yes, he really liked it. But I bring it up because this point that Vincent is making about the.

[Alex Schwartz]

Homoerotic energy, the most irritating and stupid thing about the press rollout for this film was Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo suggesting that there was a sexual undertone to the friendship between Glinda and Elphaba, which, by the way, defeats the entire purpose of the musical in about eight different ways. They're fighting over a boy in the musical. They're literally fighting over a boy in the musical. And the whole point is that they're friends. If there's something sexual, none of it works. I don't know when it became a thing in Hollywood that people aren't allowed to be friends. If two dudes are friends, they must be gay.

[Cho Minardi]

Vince Griever is like, isn't it possible for people just to go to school together anymore and just be friends? So, yeah, I just. I don't even know what to make of the fact that I dabbled in that, but I found it absolutely fascinating.

[Nomi Fry]

I love it.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah. I mean, I think, Vinson, this is definitely getting into why people are liking Wicked. I mean, it's. Why do you guys think it's such a hit?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I just think it is. It's big emotion. It's like. It's about friendship and being misunderstood. It is definitely. I think it gives a lot. Yeah. I don't know. There are people crying to Defying Gravity in my theater.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I just think it's like a very. I don't think any of the songs are true bangers. Defying Gravity is very memorable, but there's not. It's not a banger banger. But there are great emotional moments in almost every one of the songs. It is there to cause feelings, big feelings.

[Nomi Fry]

You know what it reminded me of in this sense, I think, and in the kind of, like, story of a relationship between two women, it kind of reminded me of Frozen. My daughter, who's now 13, was like, you know, a toddler, I guess, you know, when Frozen came out about a decade ago. And I. So I watched it with her, and I watched it a million times, as one does when you have a child who likes something. And I think similarly to what you were saying, Vincent, about the sort of emotionality, you know, the songs, the relationship, the strength of emotion, and the kind of, like, ability to follow the course of a relationship between two very different women.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned Disney because, like, I feel like the height of sort of recent love of musicals is the sort of. Is the Disney run that coincided with at least my childhood. You know, Aladdin and the Lion King. These things that were so well in every one of those, you know, I just can't wait to be king, et cetera, et cetera. These strong early songs of like, I want, I want, I want this thing that I think Americans today struggle with so much, which is like identity formation. How do you deal with desire and how do you express it in a way that like, makes, I don't know, society come into accord with your wishes? It's so strong in those Disney things. And I think that's totally right. Like that. Not only the sound but the structure of feeling as we keep on talking about this emotion thing. I think that's totally, totally right.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah, absolutely. The classic obstacle to the real desire and the quest of the film or of the musical being to kind of overcome the obstacle and overcome the foe to get to. That's right, to that desire. And of course, Wicked does make it a bit more interesting by having these two protagonists who are at cross purposes. So this point about Disneyfication of Wicked is very interesting because it stands in total contrast to another very, very buzzy movie musical that's out right now, Emilia Perez. Vincent and I both watched this film. Vincent, will you tell us what it's about?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Emilia Perez is about the leader of a Mexican cartel based in Mexico City who has reached a tipping point and has decided to undergo gender transition and conscripts, a sort of unappreciated lawyer to broker the transition surgery and fake a death and therefore emerge as the titular character. Emilia Perez.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah. The lawyer is played by Zoe Saldana and Carla. Sofia Gascon plays Emilia Perez and also her pre transition self.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Cho Minardi]

Selena Gomez plays the wife of the drug lord. This deals with some really serious stuff. It deals with cartels, it deals with gender transition. And the film is, interestingly to me, directed by the French filmmaker Jacques Odiar, who American audiences might remember from A Prophet. That movie that came out maybe a little more than 10 years ago.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay.

[Cho Minardi]

You know, Jacques Godard does not. Most of this film takes place in Spanish. There is some English.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Cho Minardi]

Jacques Godard does not speak Spanish. He's working in a foreign language. And he's also making it into a musical. Vincent, what did you think about the use of music, the musical element?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, this is a long running discourse, I guess, in the history of musicals whose Great exclamation point is Stephen Sondheim. The question of the singability of songs. And I find there to be not very many singable songs. And there's nothing really stuck with me except for an early song that is based on the true diegetic music of the street life of Mexico City. If you've ever been to Mexico City, there are these trucks that go around and like, they're selling things, you know, microwaves, micro Hondas, Ta da, ta da Almendras. I always remember that they're like selling almonds from the back of these things through the. Through these like loudspeakers. And that is sort of, sort of harmonized into an early song. I always like it when musicals do that. That sort of take the everyday music of life and turn it and formalize it. That's, to me, one of the great reasons for musicals to exist. Like this transit between everyday life, like musicalizing the sounds that we all know or whatever. I did not love the music, but I kind of like the music. I like the movie on some level, and I'm not just saying this because it's a Spanish language movie, but it did have the sort of the melodramatic structure of the telenovela. Like just the dramatic swings in mood and tone and lighting is very good in this movie. There's a moment where the Zoe Saldana figure is at a dinner party and does not recognize Emilia Perez post transition years later. And the moment of realization comes with a dramatic darkening of the rest of the scene. And it's just like they're both kind of spotlit. The sort of melodrama of it all really was fun.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah. I think for me, the telenovela is the key reference that you bring up, Vincent. It really is. I think the point of music in Emilia Perez is to totally heighten the experience. And one thing that musicals do is depart the realist world and give emotion, an articulation to emotion that does exist in the real world that we all feel and live with and handle on a daily basis. Usually not in song and usually usually not always and puts it into song. I mean, many different. Many different kinds of music do the same thing. But I think that with the musical, it's often people who don't like musicals will often criticize its artificiality. And I like a musical that puts the artificiality front and center. And what you're getting at, I think with the lighting choices, with the kind of over the topness of this is some things in life are so heightened, are so unrealistic, are so but they're. And yet they're part of the real that. Why not put them to music and have singing be part of it? Nomi.

[Nomi Fry]

Yes.

[Cho Minardi]

You have volunteered as tribute, in a way, to see a film that I think the three of us were slightly reluctant to see.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Cho Minardi]

Which is Joker Folie, Adieu.

[Nomi Fry]

Joker Folie a deux. Starring Stephanie Germanotta.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

Lady Gaga and Joaquin Phoenix.

[Cho Minardi]

This movie was the follow up to Joker, the Todd Phillips absolute blockbuster film. And this film did not succeed. And it's a musical. Please report back from your journey.

[Nomi Fry]

It's inextplicably a musical. In fact, it was not marketed as. I feel like the studio probably. I mean, this is all guesswork. I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but probably sort of knew that it had a stinker on their hands and were sort of trying to hide it, you know, to sort of, like, push it as, like, a more logical continuation of the first Joker, which I have to say, you can say a lot of things about the first Joker. I actually kind of enjoyed it. It had a sort of like. I mean, I had a kind of problem with kind of like a fascistic quality it had, but I. But if nothing else, it was energetic as fuck, you know, it was like. And stylish and stylish, and it was a movie that felt kind of propulsive. And this the sequel despite. And perhaps even because of the addition of the songs, which are mostly covers, it's mostly like Rogers and Hart, you know, like Bewitched or, like, Get Happy. You notice songs like that felt very unenergetic.

[Vincent Cunningham]

When you're smiling when you smiling.

[Nomi Fry]

The.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Whole world smiles with you when you're.

[Nomi Fry]

Laughing I think Manuel Dargis maybe called it a slog. And I felt that when I watched it, it was. There was something very joyless about it. It's basically story wise, plot wise. You know, Joaquin Phoenix's character, you know, Arthur Fleck, the Joker is in an institution and is waiting for his trial and then goes on trial for the crimes he committed in the first. Murders he committed in the first movie. And so it's a courtroom drama. And also he and Lady Gaga, who is also kind of. They develop this romance. They have this sort of like Mickey and Mallory from, like, Natur is kind of like outlaw romance. Bonnie and Clyde, like, in the institution, they kind of inexplicably break into song, you know, and kind of like Sonny and Cher type lounge act. Suddenly, I almost. I really wanted to like it. I was like, okay, this is. It's I could feel that it was trying to do something interesting.

[Cho Minardi]

From what you're describing, it sounds like an anti musical musical.

[Nomi Fry]

It was an anti musical musical, but there really was no good reason for it.

[Cho Minardi]

In a minute, what do we actually want from our musicals? Critics at Large from the New Yorker will be right back. Hi, I'm Susan Glasser.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm Jane Mayer.

[Cho Minardi]

And I'm Evan Osmos. And we host the Washington Roundtable from the New Yorker's Political Scene podcast. What are some of the topics we like to get into on this show, guys? Well, I mean, let's point out we.

[Nomi Fry]

Have a very tough job in this.

[Cho Minardi]

Election year of 2024.

[Nomi Fry]

You know, for me, it's the fact that we get to deal with this together. So a little bit of a group therapy session now. But now for me, what's really fantastic is to get behind the scenes and hear what you guys are picking up about what's really going on. Everybody sees the headlines, but you guys fill in the gap.

[Cho Minardi]

Occasionally we get somebody to come on too, and I'm always smarter for it. If you get a great historian who can tell you about a presidential election 50, 60 years ago, often it can help you understand about what's happening today. So if you're looking for weekly insights.

[Nomi Fry]

Into what's going on inside the Beltway.

[Cho Minardi]

Join us every Friday on the Washington Roundtable, part of the New Yorkers Political Scene podcast. So, critics.

[Nomi Fry]

Yes.

[Cho Minardi]

If you were a chiz and you had a magic wand, were you a chiz. Were you to. Were you to have the honor of unrolling a chiz and to have a.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Magic wand, our noble alma mater? Yes.

[Cho Minardi]

Yes. And you could magically make appear before you the perfect musical. What would that perfect musical be?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think when I wave my wand, or just when I close my eyes and think platonically, capital M musical, what comes into my mind is the sound of Music.

[Nomi Fry]

The hills are alive with the sound.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Of music.

[Nomi Fry]

With songs they have sung.

[Cho Minardi]

For a thousand years.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's got everything. And part of the remit of the musical is to have everything. It's gotta be what the Germans call a Gesamkunstwerk, something that contains all many of the arts within itself. You know, the dancing, the singing, the acting, all of it working together in like, this unbelievable harmony. It's got great songs, it's got great dances. It's amazing.

[Cho Minardi]

What would you say if I told you that Pauline Kael, one time longtime movie review at the New Yorker, called the Sound of Music the single most repressive Influence on artistic freedom in movies.

[Nomi Fry]

Wow.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I would argue with my esteemed colleague. That's it. What was the argument?

[Cho Minardi]

Well, I.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's just repressive. Do you know how big and open and beautiful and fluid that musical is?

[Cho Minardi]

I think it just. I think the argument was schmaltz on schmaltz, basically, that this is, you know, if the singing nuns don't get you, the stomping Nazis will. Was basically the thought. I mean. But, Vincent, you're talking about bigness, grandness, lushness.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yes, that to me, is the point of it. To make every scene, frame, moment charged with what you feel inside. That, to me, requires a kind of maximalism.

[Nomi Fry]

For me. I feel like heightened realism is kind of like a good formula. Like, I'm thinking if I. You know, just to sort of like, reverse engineer. Like, thinking about musicals that I do actually like. For instance, the musical Hair.

[Cho Minardi]

Mm.

[Nomi Fry]

Which I actually have never seen on stage, but I've watched the movie a million times.

[Cho Minardi]

The 1979 Milos Forman movie?

[Nomi Fry]

Yes, the 1979 Milos Forman movie starring the. You know, recently. Recently departed Treat Williams as Berger. So this is a movie about a particular moment in time. You know, the kind of like the hippie. You know, the anti Vietnam hippie movement.

[Cho Minardi]

Any person who alters, forges, knowingly destroys, knowingly mutilates or in any manner changes this certificate may be fined not to exceed $10,000, or in prison for not.

[Vincent Cunningham]

More than five years, or both.

[Nomi Fry]

But, of course, it's fantastical as well, right? It's, like, heightened to such an extent that them breaking out in songs and dancing on the table and swinging from the chandelier and whipping their hair back and forth reads as completely in tune. And, you know, thinking about all the musicals that I do like, it strikes me that all of them have some kind of subcultural element to them, weirdly. And I wonder if that's something that could be more generally said about the musical form.

[Cho Minardi]

I have a theory about your theory, Nomi.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay.

[Cho Minardi]

I have a theory to build on top of your theory.

[Nomi Fry]

Yes, please.

[Cho Minardi]

And here's what it is. Maybe the reason why you feel that way about the particular musicals you do is because think of what the musical actually allows us to do. The songs put you directly inside a character. And so the musicals you're describing are all worlds that you're interested in living in. And so when you walk around and you can sing the songs from here, those feelings come out through you. And that is the technology of the musical that I think is so still Exciting. And it is exciting when people use it in different ways. I mean, that's why like I had asked at the top of the show and I want to ask this again from you guys, what we want from the musical. Like I'm just thinking, if I may for a minute about the history of American musicals, please. Because I think they may help us answer this question a bit. Thinking about what people want and have wanted.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Cho Minardi]

You know, basically at the beginning of the 20th century you had really revue style musicals. You had musicals that had no plot to them, that were just about having songs transmitted of stocking wasn't absolutely shocking.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But now, God knows, anything Goes.

[Cho Minardi]

It didn't matter what the, you know what Anything Goes was about. No one really remembers. But you remember the song Anything Goes. Writing pro this changes for the first time in the late twenties when the Jerome Kern and Oscar Hammerstein musical Showboat is premiered. I think it's 1927. Suddenly the musical has a story.

[Vincent Cunningham]

There's an old man called the Mississippi. That's the old man that I'd like to be.

[Cho Minardi]

It's a real like American issue story. It's about the American south and race and the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow and all of these things. You know, wrestling with this in musical form. Yes. Like let's get serious but sing about it. And then in 1943 you get Rodgers and Hammerstein, Oklahoma. And suddenly you have a sung through musical. And this is kind of where the dam breaks.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Right.

[Cho Minardi]

For the first time, songs really replace a large part of the dialogue. But also the songs become crucial to character, to character development, to plot development, but show you give you some deeper insight into what is happening. And the stories, South Pacific, the King and I, you know, these memorable people and characters to go with the songs that you sing. And later when you get into the kind of disillusion of the ideals, the 70s, you get two of the greats, Fosse and Sondheim. You get darkness, sex, competition and real complexity.

[Vincent Cunningham]

When you now look at Broadway, given that history, where do you think we are now?

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah, when I look at Broadway now, you know, we got jukebox musicals, songs, music that you want to re inhabit and you want to see them crucially, I think performed live. That's really fun. Also you get these adaptation musicals like Mean Girls, which started out as a movie, was made into a musical and then was made into a musical movie. And then like every so often cropping up is a really interesting independent idea. How does a bastard orphan, son of.

[Nomi Fry]

A whore and a Scotsman dropped in.

[Cho Minardi]

The middle of a forgotten spot in.

[Nomi Fry]

The Caribbean by providence and poverty.

[Cho Minardi]

And here I got him out. A little defense of Hamilton, which has been through so many, you know, pro and con cycles as, like, a representation of the liberal American dream. We can absolutely mock it and laugh at it and criticize it, but as, like, a musical innovation. What I will tell you about seeing Hamilton was when I got to that theater, it was like being at a Beatles concert in 1964. The youth around me already knowing the songs and singing them.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Cho Minardi]

Just you weeping, hyped up beyond belief. Something was getting transmitted.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cho Minardi]

Directly, like, shot into the veins of that audience that hasn't been the same since.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

Where's Wicked for you in relation to this Matrix? You just.

[Cho Minardi]

I think Wicked is a bit of a, like. I mean, to me, Wicked kind of harkens back to the, like, real power musicals of the 80s.

[Nomi Fry]

A bit like Webber.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah, Like Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What do you think that makes sense? It is, but it is an example, though, musically, of. And I think this also includes Hamilton kind of, to me, a strange homogenization of the way the songs. There is kind of. There has emerged a kind of musical ease. Not musical space, E, A, S, E, but musicalese E, S, E. This kind of very. It's hard. So it's like R and B style, vocals, very slick harmonization that, like, you know, I love the musical figure that does run through Wicked. Have to say, the one that is always punctuating. They're like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's like it pulls out these weird. This, like, one emotional string that unfortunately, mine, whatever hardcore that is mine, is always available to be plucked in this movie.

[Cho Minardi]

I'm so happy to hear that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I know it's not good, but I'm like. But I feel it. I don't know. I feel like the sound of musicals. I can't even describe it. The only thing I can think of as a corollary is like, a cheesy arena, Christian contemporary music. Yeah. Musicals have a sound right now that I think is maybe inaugurated by Wicked. I'm not sure, but it's about acrobatics in singing, maybe a little bit preferred over the storytelling function. There is a kind of. Yeah. Power.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, it kind of came out around the same time as American Idol, you know, which is kind of like a similar style, sort of feats of amazing vocabulary, you know, hitting those notes. Yeah, yeah. You guys are more. Obviously, you were both theater critics and so you saw a lot like, is there a Place where you see the musical going next. Are there any examples that you could. Recent examples you can think of that might point towards where we're going?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, I think that there is. And maybe this kind of goes to what we've been talking about vis a vis. On the one hand, a sort of Disney fied thing, and on the other, a kind of. Not a realism, but a deeper engagement with realism. I'm thinking about Michael R. Jackson, the musical theater artist. He did a production called A Strange Loop about a young aspiring musical theater writer who works as an usher at Lion King. So it's very sort of like meta musical theatrical. It's very much about musicals in a certain way. Young black gay man who's sort of figuring out his life in very, like, weirdly, like explicit ways. There's a scene of him, you know, a very graphic sex scene in it and stuff like that. And he did a musical recently that I really liked actually called Teeth, adapted from the horror film of the Same Name of 2007, where it's like a young evangelical woman grows like a vagina dentata.

[Nomi Fry]

My panties are wet, but it's not blood or sweat and it's Toby's doing. He's pure and he's sweet, but I still feel the heat, the heat of temptation because he's so freaking hot. And I wish I did not feel desire brewing. But when desire burns, that's when shame returns and I seek its painful salvation. I need the. The sting of shame in my body. I needed to whip me again.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It sort of becomes like a revenge thriller of the vagina against these predatory men. And so I think there's some of that coming on the horizon. Like the R rated musical, the musical that is not only like an issue musical, but is trying to be a tool of like a cultural vanguard or something like that.

[Nomi Fry]

It's not your grandchildren, the A24 musical. It's not your grandchild's musical.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No, no, no, no. It's like Honora the Musical is what I'm imagining next.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great example. I mean, first of all, I kind of want to just say, like musicals, do what you're doing. Like, I wouldn't want to tip the scale too strongly one way or another because I feel a little bit my heart. Not singing to Wicked really does make me feel totally out of step with the culture. Like, I'm happy for the people who love Wicked. I want them to have that. I want to have it for me. I wish I could have gone to Shiz you know, and left with those feelings. But a musical I did really enjoy and I saw it when it was not yet on Broadway and it did go to Broadway. It's closed now. It's called Kimberly Akimbo. It's about a 16 year old girl who has a genetic condition that makes her age super rapidly. So in the musical she's actually played by a woman in her 60s because that's how she appears. But she is a teenager and she has problems with her family and she has a crush at school and she has all kinds of.

[Nomi Fry]

It's like Jerry Blank, the musical.

[Cho Minardi]

Yeah. So like you get it.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Cho Minardi]

So there was just something about the kind of mix of sweet and sour that I think can work really well for a musical. And that Sondheim did better than anyone. And that's why we are always talking about Sondheim. That sweet and sour element. The heart soaring and at the same, you know, maybe five minutes later sinking. It did it in a lower key way and I appreciated that. Last question, guys. Ooh, a show tune that you sing in the shower. Where do you go, Vincent? Are you just belting out at Wicked at all times? Are you defying gravity?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Between yesterday and Tuesday, I will admit I've been. I've been oooing a lot. I've been doing a lot of ooo.

[Nomi Fry]

For me, it would probably be something from here.

[Cho Minardi]

I don't want to give us any. Do you want to give us any notes?

[Nomi Fry]

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius. The age of Aquarius.

[Cho Minardi]

Glorious.

[Nomi Fry]

My eyes are closed. By the way, listeners.

[Cho Minardi]

They were so good.

[Vincent Cunningham]

They were screwed up.

[Cho Minardi]

You know, I like singing Good morning Starshine to my young son.

[Nomi Fry]

Good morning starshine.

[Cho Minardi]

And then you get to just be.

[Nomi Fry]

Like doobie doobie dab gleeby gleeby glibby glab glooby gliby glab gluby.

[Cho Minardi]

Exactly.

[Nomi Fry]

Saba sibi saba nubia.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Lili Lolo.

[Cho Minardi]

This has been Critics at Large. Our senior producer is Rhiannon Corby and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Conde Nast's head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrado composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Yost with mixing by Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] critics. Next week we are going to be taking stock of the entire year in a special live taping. We're talking about 2024, the year of the flop. See you.

[Nomi Fry]

A little trigger warning. There'll be a lot of reference to mounting today. That male ram is mounting another male ram.

[Cho Minardi]

And now he's doing it again.

[Nomi Fry]

And now he's doing it again.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Nature Cookie mounts wave is so gay.

[Nomi Fry]

Cookie mounts wave again.

[Cho Minardi]

So why don't more people know this?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I've got a gay rooster named Francois.

[Cho Minardi]

I was gonna say rumpy pumpy.

[Nomi Fry]

Please say rumpy pumpy.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Please say rumpy pumpy. I'm Owen Ever.

[Cho Minardi]

I'm Layne Kaplan Levinson, and this is.

[Nomi Fry]

A Field Guide to Gay Animals, a.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Podcast about queerness in the natural world.

[Cho Minardi]

We're traversing the Animal Queendom.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Males do mount each other and they.

[Cho Minardi]

Frolic with erection to understand why something.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So abundant is so often dismissed and forgotten.

[Nomi Fry]

They just don't like queer ducks in Wisconsin.

[Cho Minardi]

Is bulls gay?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Can animals be actually gay?

[Cho Minardi]

The animal kingdom is queer and we are apart.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Find a field guide to gay animals on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nomi Fry]

From. Prx.