Critics at Large Live: Julio Torres’s Dreamy Surrealism

Summary

Critics at Large Live: Julio Torres’s Dreamy Surrealism
Release Date: October 31, 2024

Hosted by The New Yorker’s Alexandra Schwartz, Naomi Fry, and Vincent Cunningham, this special live episode of Critics at Large features an in-depth conversation with the multi-talented Julio Torres. Torres, known for his unique blend of surrealism and poignant social commentary, delves into his creative process, personal experiences as an immigrant, and evolving perspectives on comedy.

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1. Introduction to Julio Torres

The episode kicks off with the hosts expressing their excitement about welcoming Julio Torres, highlighting his diverse roles as a director, writer, and comedian. They emphasize Torres’s singular comedic style and his ability to infuse sharp social critiques into his surreal narratives.

Notable Quote:
Alex Schwartz (00:02): “Today we've got something a little different for you.”

2. Julio Torres's Career and Accomplishments

Julio Torres is introduced with a comprehensive overview of his achievements:

• Feature Directorial Debut: Problemista for A24
• Sketch Comedy: Phantasmas, premiered in June
• Television: Co-created the HBO Peabody Award-winning series Los Espookis
• Writing: Emmy-nominated writer for Saturday Night Live
• Author: Picture book I Want to Be a Vase inspired by his TV special My Favorite Shapes

Notable Quote:
Julio Torres (01:03): “Phantasmas fans, yes.”

3. Personal Immigration Experiences and Problemista

Torres shares his personal journey from El Salvador to the United States in 2009, initially on a student visa. He discusses the cultural adjustments and bureaucratic challenges he faced, which directly influenced the creation of Problemista. The film's protagonist, Alejandro, mirrors Torres’s own struggles with the U.S. immigration system.

Notable Quote:
Julio Torres (08:41): “I kept feeling like a little robot alien... like collecting data.”

4. Creating Problemista – From Personal to Abstract

Torres explains his approach to transforming his personal immigration experiences into an abstract narrative. He consciously avoids creating a direct self-portrait, opting instead for a storyline that, while deeply personal, allows for artistic freedom and broader commentary.

Notable Quote:
Julio Torres (12:09): “I did not like the idea of having a movie where I play a version of myself... it was so deeply boring.”

5. Visual Conceits: Surrealism and Metaphor

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the visual metaphors in Torres’s work. In Problemista, he utilizes a maze-like structure to represent the convoluted immigration system, drawing inspiration from classic board games like Chutes and Ladders. This surreal setting underscores the protagonist’s struggle against an impersonal bureaucracy.

Notable Quote:
Julio Torres (16:07): “Life today is so riddled with these man-made labyrinths that are life or death... something very lonely about it.”

6. Balancing Surreal Elements with Character Development

Torres discusses the delicate balance between maintaining surreal, abstract elements and developing authentic character relationships. He emphasizes that the fantastical aspects of his work serve to highlight the underlying humanity and emotional depth of his characters.

Notable Quote:
Julio Torres (22:44): “These flourishes are there in service of the humanity in the film.”

7. Influences and Media Diet

Delving into his influences, Torres reflects on his eclectic media consumption growing up in El Salvador. He highlights the impact of Brazilian telenovelas and Disney animations, particularly The Hunchback of Notre Dame, which resonate with his appreciation for melodramatic and gothic storytelling.

Notable Quote:
Julio Torres (30:52): “Brazilian soap operas have an element of magical realism... a beautiful metaphor for love.”

8. Evolution of Comedy and the Rise of Kindness

Torres articulates his concerns about the shift towards “kind comedy” in the post-Trump era. He critiques how kindness has been commodified and used as a marketing tool, leading to a more infantilized form of humor that he finds insincere and limiting for authentic comedic expression.

Notable Quote:
Julio Torres (42:13): “Kindness became commodified... it's just a marketing tool that I get a little allergic to.”

9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the conversation wraps up, Torres reiterates his commitment to infusing his work with both surrealism and critical social commentary. He emphasizes the importance of abstraction in making his work universally relatable while maintaining its personal significance.

Notable Quote:
Julio Torres (38:30): “Abstraction is a way of inviting other people into that feeling.”

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Key Takeaways:

• Julio Torres uses surrealism and abstract narratives to explore and critique real-world issues, particularly the immigration system.
• His personal experiences as an immigrant deeply inform his creative work, enabling him to convey complex emotions and societal critiques through metaphorical storytelling.
• Torres is critical of the current trend towards “kind comedy,” advocating for more authentic and incisive humor that challenges audiences.
• His diverse media influences, ranging from Brazilian telenovelas to classic Disney animations, shape his unique storytelling style.

Notable Quotes Summary:

• Julio Torres (08:41): Felt like a “little robot alien” navigating American social norms.
• Julio Torres (12:09): Avoided direct self-portrayal to maintain artistic intrigue.
• Julio Torres (16:07): Describes life’s bureaucratic challenges as “man-made labyrinths.”
• Julio Torres (22:44): Surreal elements “are in service of the humanity” in his films.
• Julio Torres (42:13): Critiques the commodification of kindness in modern comedy.

This episode offers a profound exploration of how Julio Torres intertwines personal narrative with surreal artistry to address pressing social issues, all while navigating the evolving landscape of contemporary comedy.

Transcript

[Alex Schwartz]

Welcome to Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Alex Schwartz.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm Nomi Fry.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And I'm Vincent Cunningham. Today we've got something a little different for you. Each year, the New Yorker puts on a big festival. We writers get to sit down with all manners of politicians, artists, comedians, you name it. And so this past weekend, we, in front of a terrific audience, got to talk with Julio Torres.

[Alex Schwartz]

Julio, what colors do each of the hosts of Critics at Large represent?

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, my God.

[Julio Torres]

Oh, my God. I don't know that.

[Alex Schwartz]

I know it might be too high pressure.

[Julio Torres]

I will say this conversation has felt green.

[Alex Schwartz]

Green.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Perfect.

[Nomi Fry]

So that's what you're hearing today. Critics at Large live at the New Yorker Festival. We had a blast, and we're honestly thrilled to put this conversation out so that everyone who wasn't there has a chance to hear it. Please enjoy.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Hey.

[Alex Schwartz]

Hello. Hello. Hello.

[Nomi Fry]

Hi, everyone.

[Alex Schwartz]

Hi, everyone. Hi. I love an audience reaction. I'm Alexandra Schwartz. I'm a staff writer for the New Yorker. I'm joined by my radiant, talented, attractive, funny. Yeah, you know, I'm just feeling it.

[Nomi Fry]

My stuff. This is like, go on.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm joined by my wonderful New Yorker colleagues and co hosts Vincent Cunningham and Nomi Frye. And if you could not tell already, we're coming to you live from the New Yorker Festival.

[Julio Torres]

Yay.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. Lollapalooza for people like you.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. We will be joined in just a moment by the multi talented Julio Torres. Julio is. Well, he's kind of everything. He's a director, a writer, and a comedian. Originally from El Salvador, he made his directorial feature debut with A24's Problemista, which he also wrote and starred in. Fantasmas, a sketch comedy that he wrote, directed, and stars in, debuted in June. And Julio also. Yes, Phantasmas fans. Yes. Julio also co created and starred in the seasonally appropriate HBO Peabody award winning series Los Espookis. His writing for Saturday Night Live was nominated for an Emmy award four times. And his picture book, I Want to Be a Vase was Inspired by his 2019 TV special, my favorite Shapes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

I too, want to be a vase.

[Alex Schwartz]

I know. Well, so I recently described Julio as our dream guest for this event because we're all big fans and because his comedy is. It's singular, it's a little hard to categorize. How would you guys explain it?

[Nomi Fry]

I would say that it's a kind of, like, gently comedic, but also sharp take on contemporary issues through a kind of, like, surreal, abstract point of view.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Also, it strikes me. I wrote about Funtosimas on hbo, and I fell in love with Julio's work after My Favorite shapes. But it strikes me that he kind of does what we do in that, like, his work is critical. It looks at something real, and it offers not only a reflection, but like a commentary on what he sees. You know, the point of view in his work is so strong, which is why I'm so excited to talk to the man behind the curtain.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's also, you know, it strikes me also that there's an element, and I can't wait to talk to Julio about this. Of self portraiture going on in his work. You know, a few of his pieces have a figure who is a kind of version of him. Like in Problemista, he plays an aspiring, not actor, comedian, writer, but toy designer from El Salvador who's trying to stay in the United States and keeps running into all kinds of bureaucratic problems, which is an experience, I think Julio himself experienced. And then in Phantasma's, you know. Vincent, do you want to explain a little bit what goes on in the show?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. It's a show about how difficult it is to be alive. It's a guy who has, like, many of us sort of like pie in the sky ideas, pretensions to art. He wants to create in this show. He's always, like, kind of an inventor of a kind. This is part of his Persona across his works. In this one, he wants to be a crayon designer, and he's like, what about a crayon that, like, you know, is invisible?

[Nomi Fry]

And they're like. But it doesn't leave any trace. Like, what are we selling?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. But the sort of disposition that leads to his brilliance also makes him unsuited for life in the world, you know? And I think that's, like, pretty. I just heard murmurs of approval from other useless people like me. This is a common thing.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, it's, like, about a useless, as you say, creative person coming up again and again against the strictures of a world whose bureaucracy cares not for uselessness or creativity.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Basically crushes it.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, crushes it, in fact.

[Alex Schwartz]

Totally. Well, that's actually the perfect setup to one of the big things that we want to talk to Julio about today. We're interested in asking him about the way that he uses his extremely surreal and sensory kind of comedy to explore some very grim aspects of the real world and the politics that shape it. Because as abstract as all this may sound, it's really not once you start watching his work. So, you know, with no further ado. I think we're ready to welcome out our special guest for today's conversation. Please welcome Julio Torres.

[Nomi Fry]

Yay.

[Julio Torres]

Hello, Julio.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What's up?

[Julio Torres]

Hi.

[Nomi Fry]

Woo.

[Julio Torres]

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello.

[Nomi Fry]

Hi.

[Alex Schwartz]

Hello. Hi.

[Julio Torres]

Sparkling it. It. I must confess. This is from last night.

[Nomi Fry]

Straight from a Halloween party.

[Julio Torres]

Yes. Yeah, we are. We're in the. In the midst of a big stretch of Halloween, but, you know, you gotta carve out some time for work.

[Nomi Fry]

Right, Right. Does it sometimes feel like too much or too much Halloween? Yeah.

[Julio Torres]

No, I mean, you got to. The art of Halloween is learning. Learning how to. How to pace it and just trying to anticipate where the climax of Halloween is. I think right now we're certainly in the eye of the storm.

[Nomi Fry]

Right?

[Julio Torres]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

So if I may ask such a. Such an obvious question, what were you. What will you be for Halloween?

[Julio Torres]

Well, so these past two nights, again, it's like, I know that the hill is still ahead, so I have been to be crassed. Just a generic fairy. Just a generic elf like fairy. I don't want to say what I will be on Halloween proper, mostly because I haven't seen the costume yet. So in case I fail, I don't want my failure to be documented.

[Nomi Fry]

But we'll have to keep in touch. Yeah. Because. Yeah. I'm dying to know now.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. An answer that does not clarify, but.

[Nomi Fry]

Does evoke a great deal, much like your work.

[Alex Schwartz]

All right.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Let's do a hard pivot.

[Julio Torres]

It's such a hard pivot.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, let's start with Problemista. We were talking about this before, as we mentioned. This is your first feature film. You wrote it, you directed it, and you starred in it. It came out last year, and it also stars the wonderful Tilda Swinton. And, you know, Problemista is about someone who's trying to figure out how to stay in the US his work visa is expiring. He wants to be a toy maker, and it's really in New York City that he feels his dreams can be realized. He doesn't want to be sent back to El Salvador, where he comes from, but he's up against this huge, unfeeling bureaucratic machine. So this lines up in some ways with your own story. And before we get into the movie, we wanted to hear about your own experience in coming to the US From El Salvador. You know, were there elements of the culture here that surprised you that were different than what you expected?

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, I mean, the movie is very, very personal and very, very rooted in my experience. I came here in 2009, the reason on paper was to be a student on a student visa. And I grew up consuming a lot of American media. So I came here thinking I had a solid understanding of life in New York and in the US and then I kept like. There were definitely moments where I kept being. I kept feeling like a little like, like a little robot alien. Like, like, like collect, like collecting data and being like, oh, got it. Like the greeting people with hugs was. I feel like something that's like. I don't know if it's a New York thing or if it's an American thing, but the like constant like hugging.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We're low on the scale, dude.

[Julio Torres]

What do you mean?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, yeah, hug per capita or whatever. Like elsewhere, there's more hugs. So I don't think it's in New York.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, like elsewhere in America. Elsewhere in America, like, where would you say, what's the capital of hugging in America?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I mean, it's, it's not on either coast, is it? I don't mean to stereotype. Continue. I'm so sorry.

[Julio Torres]

You're from New York though, right?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I was born and raised here and I feel like, I feel like an over hugger here. In other places. I feel like a cold on the hugger.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So, I mean, I don't know where you felt like you.

[Julio Torres]

Well, I, I felt like, like it was, I was, it was one of those things where like, oh, they don't put this in the movies.

[Vincent Cunningham]

All the hugging.

[Julio Torres]

Like, people aren't constantly hugging each other to say hi in the movies. And I was like, oh, so no one told me about this. And like. And I was like, oh, okay. And I don't have a problem with it now. I'm a big hugger. I hug all the time.

[Nomi Fry]

But we just hugged backstage.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes.

[Julio Torres]

We didn't.

[Nomi Fry]

And we had never met before.

[Julio Torres]

And see how second nature that was to me now.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. As it was to me.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah. Yeah. But there is there.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It didn't seem weird at all.

[Julio Torres]

It was like. And you know, like coming to New York, actually, the, the. I kept being warned of this, this stereotype of like, New Yorkers are cold, New Yorkers are mean. You're. You're not going to fit in. You're going to. And that felt actually, I actually felt like, oh, actually, no, in my experience, New York has been spiritually welcoming, infrastructurally, bitterly cruel. Like, like the. Just the minutia of, of like the everyday hurdles of bureaucratic logistics of just being a person here, which are so impersonal and so cruel. Like, oh, my God, you're. You're. You're here just. And you're not, like, properly rooted here in the way that you're supposed to be. And you, like, break an arm, good luck. Like, that's. You're done for. Right?

[Nomi Fry]

And, yeah, it's all over.

[Julio Torres]

It's all over. Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

As you say, this is very personal to you, and it's full of observations that feel very lived in. I do wonder how it is to take something like that and turn it into something that has a lot of the real, but also has these surrealistic departures. Obviously, Alejandro is not exactly you. He has a lot in common with you. What is it like to set up this sort of, like, second self?

[Julio Torres]

You know, I think that I. I was candidly always very allergic to creating something that was so obviously traced on. On me and my experience. I just did not. I did not like the idea of having a movie where I play a version of myself or someone else is playing a version of myself going through the same kinds of things that I went through, because I. I thought that was so deeply boring. And I think that I also had a gut reaction to. Cause it's like when you're a creator, a writer or whatever, and you get to go on these meetings with executives, and they're just vaguely feeling you out to see, what can we get from you in the future, right? It's like, what can we mine from you? And it always. I resented that. I. My only value was to be squeezed from this sort of, like, niche experience.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Tell us about your traumas.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like. It felt very like, give us the gay, give us the Latino. Like, right. And. And I. And I. I have a very contrarian streak in me, and I. I think I immediately was like, no, actually, my movie is going to be about something that it's, like, complete. It's like a. You know, about a robot or whatever.

[Nomi Fry]

And then it's like a Midwestern football player.

[Julio Torres]

A Midwestern football, which actually is Ajah. I long to have my country era. I feel like.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, I think you're right.

[Julio Torres]

My country drag.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You're gonna do Friday Night Lights, too?

[Julio Torres]

Yeah. Oh, my God, yeah. Like, if Lady Gaga can have a country moment. But anyway. But then I feel like as I sat down and started abstracting the idea, I was like, oh, I can actually tell this story that is actually very meaningful to me in a way that also feels, like, artistically true to me.

[Alex Schwartz]

So we have a clip that we want to play for the audience, for anyone who hasn't seen this movie, and for those who have, you can indulge again. And this, I think. I think this clip gives a really good example of what you're talking about, of how you're taking an experience that's shared by many, many people that you experienced yourself, in this case, the convoluted and very difficult to navigate immigration system. And you're making it in the film both playful, sinister, and most of all, very, very visual. The rules of the game are as follows. First, he must find a sponsor for a work visa. Then he must submit it by paying application and lawyer fees totaling up to $6,000. And only then is Alejandro allowed to earn money, money that he needs so he can submit his application to, well, earn money. And he must do it before the fall of the last grain of sand. The maze is impossible to navigate, unless.

[Julio Torres]

Of course, he's willing to bend the rules. Cash.

[Alex Schwartz]

You need cash. So one thing I love about this image is how immediately clear it seems to the viewer, but how no one else would have come up with it. Like the character Alejandro in the film is in this crazy situation where, as the narrator is saying, you need all kinds of papers in order to be able to work, but you need money to show that you are. You know, it doesn't make any sense. The order of these things makes no sense. And your character's crawling through this tiny, you know, maze, up and down a kind of Chutes and Ladders trap. How did you come up with that visual conceit?

[Julio Torres]

Chutes and Ladders was a. A title that I entertained for the movie, by the way.

[Alex Schwartz]

I love knowing that.

[Nomi Fry]

There she goes again.

[Julio Torres]

There she goes again. There was a list of, like, 300 titles, but anyway.

[Nomi Fry]

Never mind.

[Julio Torres]

And it was Snakes and Ladders, not Shoes and Ladders. We're in there. But it was. It was up there. It was up there. How did I come up with it when I was writing it? I didn't fully see the structure in my head, but I felt. I knew that it was. That it ought to be, like, metallic in some way, because that's a very, I think, bureaucratic color. But I knew that it had to be a sort of cyclical and maddening and like, a little, like, hamster wheel feeling. But I hadn't exactly visualized what we ended up doing, and it wasn't until having meetings with our production designer, Katie Byron. She also did the curse, the series, the curse, those reflective houses. We were going back and forth, sending each other Drawings of how does this thing look like? How does this thing look like? And it wasn't until I was like, oh, maybe the desk in one of the rooms can lock with the vent in another one of the rooms so that you keep going down. And also just the idea of I really wanted to slide. I really wanted to have that motion of doing a half cartwheel. And then it clicked and then it was like, oh, well, it should look like an office with a filing cabin and all these things. And it truly feels true to the feeling of. And not just immigration, but I think, like, I don't know, canceling your gym account or like, impossible, impossible or an insurance nightmare, which is something that I haven't had, that I'm privileged to never had that. But having, you know, people I love go through like, oh, I can't go to this doctor unless they prove that I do have this thing and this thing isn't covered by this thing. And I think that just life today is so riddled with these man made labyrinths that are life or death, but you feel like you are trapped in silently. There's something very lonely about it. And I think that I'm happy that we found something that communicates that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

In a minute we talk with Julio about how he makes surreal, fanciful political comedy out of some pretty grim real life circumstances. Critics at large live at the New Yorker Festival. We'll be right back.

[Julio Torres]

I'm dan Tabursky. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[Nomi Fry]

I was like, at my locker and she came up to me and she.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Was like stuttering super bad.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm like, stop around. She's like, I can't.

[Julio Torres]

A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast, like doubling and tripling. And it's all these girls with a diagnosis. The state tried to keep on the down low.

[Alex Schwartz]

Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julio Torres]

Well, yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's hysteria.

[Julio Torres]

It's all in your head. It's not physical.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

[Julio Torres]

Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical. Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondery.

[Vincent Cunningham]

This week's episode is sponsored by Neon's film Presence. Directed by Steven Soderbergh and written by David Koepp, Presence is a thrilling new ghost story about a family that moves into a new home and becomes convinced they are not alone. Starring Lucy Liu, Chris Sullivan and Julia Fox, Presence has been hailed as one of the scariest movies you'll see this year. Experience it in theaters on January 24th.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm wondering, you know, Problemista, as well as your other work, is really concerned with these visual conceits that are kind of abstractions of kind of like the issues that you want to foreground. But I'm wondering if you're worried sometimes or if it's something that you think about, how to balance these more like fanciful, you know, surrealist elements with the subjectivity of the characters and their relationships between them. Because one thing that struck me about this movie was the relationship between you, your character Alejandro, and the Tilda Swinton character, which seemed very developed and real, you know, within that sort of kooky conceit. And like anyone who's had to work for, like, a nightmare person knows this type of relationship.

[Julio Torres]

Where are my bloody keys?

[Alex Schwartz]

I wouldn't put it past her if we're taking them. I mean, she was always taking things when she was with me. I'm not going back there.

[Julio Torres]

No. Here, let's open your bag. And we'll search for everything and we'll put every item here one by one, and we'll find it like that.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, one by one.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, yeah. Good things. Always losing myself.

[Nomi Fry]

That's good.

[Alex Schwartz]

Very, very good.

[Julio Torres]

One by one, One by one.

[Alex Schwartz]

One by one.

[Julio Torres]

Is it any of these?

[Nomi Fry]

No.

[Julio Torres]

You know, people are always asking me, elizabeth, why don't you relax? Why are you always so tense? Why are you always obsessing about Bobby?

[Nomi Fry]

And, you know, they don't know what.

[Alex Schwartz]

It is to really want something, you.

[Julio Torres]

Know, to really, you know, be on a mission or.

[Nomi Fry]

Or out. And yet there is a kind of, like, affection that grows between them, which is. It's kind of a complicated thing. Right. This was a long winded way of asking you about balancing the more fanciful elements and the kind of like real realistic relationshipy elements in your work.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, I. The one. One. One word that I heard used to describe these elements that I think is actually very useful is calling them flourishes, because they are there to draw attention to the humanity in the work. They are there to highlight. They are not the plot in itself. Right. If it were, then that's when you get into Harry Potter, Marvel territory. But this is Metaphor. This is meant to. When you see a surrealist painting, it is arresting and beautiful and touching. If you feel like there's a beating heart behind it, rather than like, this painter just thought of the craziest thing they could think of and, like, put it on a canvas. Right. So these flourishes are there in service of the humanity in the film. That limbo, which. That set design, we kept referring to it as the bureaucratic limbo is there in service of the feelings of the protagonist. But in terms of. To get more granular about how do you know when to stop budget? Yeah, there it is. Because, oh, my God, the earlier versions of this script, there were spaceships. It was madness. And I. And I do. For some reason, I keep thinking of my work through the lens of how would it be judged on Project Runway?

[Nomi Fry]

That's how we all think of our work.

[Julio Torres]

Well, because sometimes I see a film, I often see a film that is so clean and elegant and slick and has one protagonist and one journey and that it's a gorgeous draping and it's so flattering to the body, and then it's so effortless. And then everyone's like, wow, that's like. It's an Oscar de la Renta. That's absolutely gorgeous. And then I feel like I see my thing come down the Runway and I'm just like, oh, my God, I gave her a hat and two bags.

[Nomi Fry]

And it's just like, oh, God, Michael Kors is not. Please.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, and there's like, where is she going? Where is she?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Your model is, like, obviously upset.

[Julio Torres]

My model is just, like, holding back tears because her success is tied to my success. But. And the. But when it works, it's so gratifying. Right? And it's so. And it's a. When you do something that's so. That feels different and new, I always much rather see someone fail at doing something incredibly ambitious than at seeing something I've seen before.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay, so this, this, this leads. Yeah. Absolute, Absolutely worthy of applause. The sentiment. So this leads into something I've been wondering, which is, you know, we. We were talking a little bit about your own biography, your own life, how it's reflected in this film. You come to New York, you're a student, you get into the standup comedy scene. Most standup comedy is not your kind of stand up comedy. You know, most standup comedy I'm guessing that you're seeing around, you know, the various performing venues in New York is like someone not to stereotype, but maybe telling kind of jokes, maybe Girlfriend jokes or maybe personal life jokes or whatever. And then you arrive. How did you know that you were funny? How did you know that the comedy world was for you? Was this something that from a young age you were like, I am funny and they must hear me or did you come to it later?

[Julio Torres]

You are right in that. I mean, I do think that the landscape has changed significantly within the last few years and there were no such thing as like queer, only open mics or like the landscape was just completely different. And yes, you are right that it was a lot of the same joke, efficient, like sort of like your stereotype of what a stand up comedian is. Right. But feeling like I was standing outside of everything the show business, creativity related. I had no idea how to become a film writer and a TV writer, which was what I wanted to do. Those worlds felt so impenetrable. It felt like I needed to know someone who knew someone, who knew something, who knew someone and really like, yes, the standup world was so, so different than me and I never in a million years would have seen myself in it. It was the door that I could be like, oh, they're actually free open mics where you can just go and anyone, they won't stop. You can go.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And you with the shapes and perform.

[Julio Torres]

And there was something very. For all of its faults and how homogenous that world is, I was able to just go and stand behind the microphone. Right. And stand up was just a. At the beginning, it felt like a way of showcasing my writing without needing to jump through any more hurdles. It was the door that was unlocked.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Stick around for more of our conversation with Julio Torres live at the New Yorker Festival. That's right after the break.

[Julio Torres]

Hi, this is David Remnick. I'm proud to share the news that three films from the New Yorker documentary series have been shortlisted for the Academy Awards and they are Incident Seat 31's Zoe Zephyr and Eternal Father. And they all immerse you in the finest cinematic journalism. Exploring themes of justice, identity and the bonds that shape us. These extraordinary films, which were created by established filmmakers as well as emerging artists.

[Nomi Fry]

Will inform, challenge and move you. I encourage you to watch them along.

[Julio Torres]

With our full slate of documentary and narrative [e-mail] video.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm really interested in hearing a little bit more about what type of either comedy or like TV or movies where you, when you were young, you admired, you gravitated towards in a way that later influenced you when you were like, I don't know, kid in El Salvador. And were you like, oh, my God, this is the funniest movie ever. Like, I wish I could do this. Or do you have, like, side of signposts?

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, I mean, I had a. I had a sort of very, like, eclectic. I keep holding back from saying media diet because that feels such a. Like eye rolly.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You're with a bunch of friends.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Say whatever you want. Yeah, yeah. Who came up with a Media Diet?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It sounds like New York magazine.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say it's like Vulture or something.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

I don't think, like a five year.

[Julio Torres]

Old has a media diet Vulture. My mother watched a lot of Brazilian soap operas, like telenovelas, that are very, very different than Mexican telenovelas because.

[Nomi Fry]

How so?

[Julio Torres]

Well, Mexican telenovelas are very. They're very melodramatic, obviously. Right. That's the trope of a soap opera. And they're very. They're almost like a fairy tale minus the magic, because it's like fate and. Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. But Brazilian soap operas have an element of magical realism, have an element of things that go unexplained. I very, very vividly remember this one where there was a character who throughout the whole. Oh, and by the way, these are. The setup is different. These are ostensibly limited series, as opposed to like Days of Our Lives that goes on forever and ever. Right. So throughout the whole series, there was this character who had to get locked in the basement every time there was a full moon. It's like they had to lock this guy in the basement every time there's a full moon. And he's a minor character. Minor character. Side note, he needs to be locked in the basement.

[Alex Schwartz]

Was it like werewolf adjacent?

[Julio Torres]

Okay. And then at the end. And then at the end, he goes outside when there's a full moon, but he has chained himself to the house and there's a full moon and he rises up to like the moon is pulling him. And it's. And the explanation was he is in love with the moon and that. And that's why he has to get locked. Locked up.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And that's it.

[Julio Torres]

And that's it. But that is such a powerful, vivid, gorgeous. You know, it's a. It's such a beautiful metaphor for love. It's such a. And it's. It's so potent and it's the tides, etc.

[Alex Schwartz]

But like, was it the moon who said he needs to go like, I can't take this guy anymore?

[Julio Torres]

No, the moon was like, I need him now.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, okay. Classic sported lovers. I see. Yeah, I see.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So was there anything else that, I mean, that is very striking.

[Julio Torres]

That's not the only thing.

[Alex Schwartz]

So that was part of your media diet.

[Julio Torres]

So that was part of the media diet. I, for some reason, like, so in. At the time in El Salvador, we had. Remember cable? Yes, yeah, we had cable, but the, our cable company, like, stole the signal from, like, the local New York one. So. So I would watch, like, local New York news.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, wow.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I love the moon guy and Rudy Giuliani Scarborough.

[Julio Torres]

And so I would watch like the Grand Prospect hall commercials as a kid in El Tower. And I was just like, oh, yeah, the Grand Prospect Hall. We make your dreams come true.

[Alex Schwartz]

We also know that Disney was big for you. This is something that we discussed.

[Julio Torres]

Yes, yes. I also like very, very. As a little kid, any fairy tale, any, like, 90s Disney Animation was, I don't know, like every. Most children around the world, like, very important to me. And it was like, they make one a year and which one is the one that we're getting this year? Right? And my favorite one was the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's not a conventional choice.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The deep cut favorite. Man.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I love that.

[Nomi Fry]

I remember that. I remember.

[Alex Schwartz]

Why is that your favorite?

[Julio Torres]

Because it's so melodramatic. It's so, like the way they animate the gothic architecture of the cathedral. And it's, it's so. There's something like, very dark about it and it's not even. It, like, attempts and fails at being fun and cute in a way that I really, really like. Like, you can feel the studio notes where they were like, okay, well, can the gargoyle sing?

[Nomi Fry]

He's not likable enough.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I get it. He's in a tower. But can he have friends?

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, it's like, well, okay, well, she can't kiss him. But also Demi Moore voices Esmeralda, which I. The substance from the Substance. Yeah, yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Substance's Demi Moore was before that.

[Julio Torres]

I mean, come on, what a career. Like the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Charlie's Angels, Full throttle. The Substance. Those are like three gay boy icons.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm glad that the Substance, you know, a film that came out six weeks ago has already made it right on there.

[Julio Torres]

But I. And it really. I think I've had this sort of love, hate relationship with that genre. Love because it brought me so much joy as a child. And the hate because of the capitalist context in which that entertainment exists. Right. And see, and like the immigrant experience tied to that of America Drawing you in, seducing you, but then pushing you away. But then pushing you away, drawing you in. Like, it's like. Like the experience of coming to New York, right? Hug. Oh, so cool that you're here. Oh, you don't have money. Good luck.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, so, Julio, I'm hearing you talk a little bit in this. You know, politics keeps creeping in, and it's something that. It's coming into our conversation in subtle but definite ways, I feel. And I want to go at it a little more directly, you know, in part because it's spooky season with Halloween, but also the election coming up, and in part because, you know, I feel that politics has become a real through line in your work. I mean, in your latest show, Fantasmas, the lead character who you play is kind of plagued by this question of whether or not to get something called a proof of existence. Oh, there's the building I'm applying for.

[Nomi Fry]

You're moving into the Capital One residencies, the ExxonMobil ones.

[Julio Torres]

And, Julio, they have a swimming pool. Ooh, girl, I hear it is nice they asked you for that thingy, though. Proof of existence. Yes.

[Alex Schwartz]

They ask it for all apartments now, child.

[Julio Torres]

I don't play with no damn proof of existence. I don't need one, girl. Tell me why. Uber was trying to get me to get one, and I was like, y'all are trying to take half of my money off my rides and want me to pay for an ID that proves that I exist, girl. Bye. I exist, huh?

[Nomi Fry]

Good.

[Julio Torres]

I don't even have one, and I don't want it. I don't want nothing to do with it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wait, go off, sis.

[Alex Schwartz]

I look like it's like, you know, any ID card that you might have to get, like a passport or a driver's license, except it's the ultimate. Do you even exist if you don't have this? Do you even exist in the system? That seems to me like a very pointed critique of the way some of these things you're talking about, the way that bureaucracy kind of can either erase you or make you real. When you go into making a piece of work like Problemista or like Phantasmas, are you thinking, oh, how can I approach the politics I want to discuss? Are you. Do you think that there's something to be said for abstraction as a way to bring out certain political realities? You know, because this isn't hard realism in a way that something like realism can't or misses certain elements of the experience?

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, I mean, the phantasmas that show is very abstracted. It feels real because the hurdles feel very real. And I have become very interested in this idea that, like, more and more, increasingly New York feels like it's. You're either like, logistically, infrastructurally, bureaucratically in it, or you're completely out. It's becoming very, very difficult to even get on the subway if you only have cash. The tap to pay thing, I think, what does that mean? You need a smartphone, it needs to be charged, working, it has to be synced with a bank. And all these things that, like, for most people in this room, most of our listeners, me right now, it's sort of second nature. But that is not the real experience of every human being in New York that needs to take the train. And something clicks when you start to realize that what you feel is felt by other people. And I think that abstraction is a way of, of inviting other people into that. In earlier versions, the proof of existence was actually credit score.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, Anyone who's tried to rent an apartment as an immigrant knows about that.

[Julio Torres]

I, I, I still to this day, no credit score, no credit card.

[Nomi Fry]

Same.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, same. Yeah, good for you. But I mean, no, terrible for us. But it was credit score because at the time when I was writing this show, I was moving apartments and having to just prove that you exist to landlords. There's something so ghostly and desperate about that. The credit score became such a hurdle and it even got to the point where I was like, I will pay a year of rent up front. And I felt such a king when I offered that. I felt such a lord when I offered that. And then over and over and over again they kept saying, no, no, we need a credit score. A friend of mine who worked on the show and we became friends since then, had the brilliant idea of like abstracting it further. And that is how the proof of existence came about, through my friend Neha's recommendation. And it's because it's like she accurately detected that, like, my work thrives better when it's. Or that show specifically, I should say thrived better when it was when you were seeing it from a broken mirror. Almost. Right.

[Alex Schwartz]

There's one final thing I want to ask you. You had mentioned Julio. I'm just going to give everyone a little peek into the behind the scenes process. When we all chatted earlier this week, we were talking about the election, we were talking about first Trump era. And you know when you really came up as a professional and as a comedian and we were asking you what trends you had seen in comedy then and you said comedy became much kinder and that that wasn't necessarily a good thing. So can you expound a little bit on this theory of kind comedy and tell us, you know, if you've seen any other changes in comedy or what you kind of expect, what direction comedy might go in or where you might want it to go in?

[Julio Torres]

Well, actually, I don't, I don't necessarily think that. I think, I think, I think my sentiment is, is broader than that. And is that in the, as a reaction to the first Trump administration, kindness became commodified. It used to be like, you know, when I was growing up, you'd hear sex sells, sex sells, sex sells. Right. And, and then now it feels like corporations are like, oh God, everyone is so scared. All right, let's make it seem kind. And then it's just sort of like everything is sort of infantilizing, like, you know, these like grown up sodas. Pinky pop, pinky pop, recess. It's like, it's very like, like we're little kids. And that is, there's something to me, like insidious about that because they are reacting to the fact that people are scared and feel like they need to, they need a hand to hold. And so, and so they're like, alright, make it a pastel gradient. And, and then, and then they'll buy it because they'll feel safe. On, on Amazon, there's this page of like your prescriptions delivered to you and they explain how that works and they explain how that works. Almost as if they look almost as like a kids book, illustrations of how you get your prescriptions. Never mind that we're also rattled and nervous and scared because places such as Amazon exist, right? So it's like they are both the problem and the solution. And I feel like this kindness thing, I don't have a problem with. I, I, I do, I do love the idea of living in a kind of whatever, like, but it's when that feels cynical and it's just a marketing tool that I get a little allergic.

[Alex Schwartz]

Kind capitalism. I think you've hit on something.

[Julio Torres]

Yeah, really big.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, that is all we have time for. Thank you, Julio, for joining us.

[Julio Torres]

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much.

[Vincent Cunningham]

This has been live and in person. We brought it straight to you critics at large. Huge thanks to our guest this week, Julio Torres, and of course to everyone who made the New Yorker festival happen. Our senior producer is Rhiannon Corby and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Conde Nast's head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrado composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Zost with mixing by Mike Kutschman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] Critics a reminder, too, that the advice project that we launched in last week's episode is ongoing. Send in a submission for our I Need a Critic segment by recording a voicemail and emailing it to themail T H E M A I l@New Yorker.com See you soon.

[Nomi Fry]

Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast Crime Junkie.

[Julio Torres]

Every Monday, me and my best friend.

[Nomi Fry]

Britt break down a new case, but not in the way you've heard before and not the cases you've heard before. You'll hear stories on Crime Junkie that haven't been told anywhere else. I'll tell you what you can do to help victims and their families get justice. Join us for new episodes of Crime Junkie every Monday. Already waiting for you by searching for.

[Julio Torres]

Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcasts from PRX.