Podcast Summary: Critics at Large | The New Yorker

Episode: Do We Need Saints?
Date: January 8, 2026
Hosts: Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Fry, Alexandra Schwartz
Theme: The ongoing fascination with saints—historical and pop cultural—across film, music, and contemporary life. The critics explore the persistent allure of sainthood, the art and pop culture representations of saints, the distinction between reverence and irony, and why this archetype is reemerging now.

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the cultural resurgence of saints—both in traditional religious contexts and the broader, often ironic, ways figures are canonized today. Using new movies, music, television, and fashion as jumping-off points, the hosts dig into why saints—and the ideals or contradictions they represent—are resonant right now.

Key Discussion Points

1. Naomi Fry’s Red Carpet Moment

• Naomi shares her cameo experience in Josh Safady's new film Marty Supreme, reflecting humorously on her brush with celebrity and the surreal nature of red carpet events.
• Notable quote:
  “I learned that it’s over before you know it. And I learned that you interact with the photographers in ways which I wasn’t...Some of them heckled me a little bit to get a smile.” — Nomi Fry [02:01]

2. Film Discussion: The Testament of Ann Lee

[Segment: 03:05–17:39]

• New film by Mona Fastvold dramatizes the life of Ann Lee, founder of the Shakers—a spiritual movement characterized by ecstatic worship and radical equality.
• The movie’s style: Divided into chapters, blending sincere, anti-modern spirituality with modern sensibilities (musical numbers and dance sequences grounded in Shaker traditions).
• Alex’s take:
  Loved the sincerity and anti-ironic tone; appreciated the egalitarian, modern aspects of Shaker theology.

  “You’re not coming to this movie for irony… If you go in trying to just bask in the presence of this both very earthly and otherworldly person…I thought Amanda Seyfried was great.” — Alex Schwartz [10:04]

• Nomi’s take:
  Couldn’t relate deeply due to a different spiritual background; admired Amanda Seyfried’s performance but found the spiritual fervor “alien.”

  “I’m too Jewish for this movie… I could see an externalization of her fervor, but somehow I couldn’t totally relate to it.” — Nomi Fry [10:40]

• Vinson’s take:
  Found it deeply familiar—ecstatic worship reminded him of Pentecostal church experiences. Praised the film’s embodiment and refusal to “explain” ecstasy.

  “The Shakers are a lot like Pentecostals… there’s a sort of ecstasy in the air… a narrative of togetherness and a narrative of shared experience between the people involved that is not easily communicable.” — Vinson Cunningham [13:08]

3. Saints in Art and Pop Culture

[Segment: 19:47–36:32]

• The hosts share their favorite artistic depictions of saints:
  • Alex:
    Michelangelo’s Temptation of St. Anthony (“You might be tempted to repost this with the caption ‘it me’… Who is not this St. Anthony just trying to go about his business… and instead the demons and the devils… are coming for him.” [22:28–23:07]) Also recommends Rossellini’s film The Flowers of St. Francis for its humble, face-value depiction of saintly life.
  • Nomi:
    Remembers Madonna’s “Like a Prayer” video—sexuality, rebellion, and Catholic iconography.

    “Saints are kind of sexy, which was the problem with it, of course, as far as the Catholic Church was concerned.” — Nomi Fry [28:21]

  • Vinson:
    Praises Rosalia’s concept album LUX: “Using female saints as the sort of vehicles for her idea… the eroticism of trying to reach some connection with the all knowing.” [29:06]
  • Discussion of Martin Scorsese’s Lives of the Saints on Fox Nation—over-the-top reenactments, overt piety, and kitschiness.
    • “Martin Scorsese presents the Saints is the cheesiest thing I’ve ever seen… I’m extremely here for it.” — Alex Schwartz [33:56]

4. Saintliness as a Modern Obsession

[Segment: 37:39–47:28]

• Why are saints everywhere today?
  • External indicators: Saint/nun fashion—celebrities dressing as nuns (e.g., Lily Allen, Rihanna, Sydney Sweeney, Sabrina Carpenter).
  • Alex points to a cultural hunger for “moderation and self-denial,” a rejection of constant materialism:

    “The world is moving faster… Materialism is reaching every corner of the globe. It’s very hard to say no and say stop and say, ‘I will do without rather than I want more…’” — Alex Schwartz [38:59]

  • Nomi relates it to diet culture and wellness:

    “The draw of kind of like discipline, self-discipline, is so strong in our culture… I think the turn toward the cultural figure of the saint can be seen as part of that.” — Nomi Fry [41:38]

5. Humanizing Saints and Modern Sainthood

• Both the Testament of Ann Lee and Scorsese’s series humanize their subjects, moving them from the mystical into the everyday context of principle, struggle, and suffering.

• Vinson draws comparisons to contemporary secular sainthood, e.g., Nelson Mandela, and observes:

  “The bracing and sort of terrifying thing about them is precisely that they are human beings… If you had the juice, you could do it too…except they believe harder.” — Vinson Cunningham [42:40]

• The hosts reflect on “cancel culture” as the inverse of canonization—how figures are rapidly sanctified and just as quickly dethroned (e.g., Noam Chomsky’s fall from grace due to the Epstein files).

6. Saints as Political and Social Symbols

• The urge to canonize or demonize public figures as emblems for political or social anxiety (e.g., references to Charlie Kirk, Luigi Mangione, and Zoran Mamdani).
• Alex:

  “We are craving this kind of clarity where no such clarity exists. And we’re trying to… that’s obviously done with a code of irony that is very unsaint-like itself.” [46:59]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Maybe you have to kind of submit to it.” — Alex Schwartz on watching The Testament of Ann Lee [09:16]
• “This kind of zealotry… it’s a very solitary experience… part of what the movie is about… is how isolating an experience it is… to have this level of conviction.” — Alex Schwartz [15:02]
• “The hunger and thirst for the saint, I think, is part of the same thing…” — Alex Schwartz [46:38]
• “Making me think about something else… the haste to push people off these pedestals… the heights of, like, this person is a modern saint… and the downfall.” — Nomi Fry [43:35]

Memorable Segment Timestamps

• Naomi’s Red Carpet Story: 01:21–03:01
• Testament of Ann Lee Film Discussion: 03:05–17:39
• Classic and Pop Culture Saints (art, movies, Madonna, Rosalia): 19:47–36:32
• Saintliness as Trend & Ideology: 37:39–41:38
• Humanizing Saints & Modern Sainthood: 41:38–47:28
• Concluding Recommendations (Favorite Saints): 49:15–50:25

Conclusion

Do We Need Saints? The hosts conclude that the saint figure—religious, artistic, or ironic—embodies a hunger (and fear) for conviction, self-denial, and transcendence in a fast, fragmented world. The discussion ranges from the sincerely devout to the pop-cultural, from Amanda Seyfried’s Ann Lee to Rosalia’s multilingual saints, Madonna’s subversion, and Martin Scorsese’s earnest reenactments. Saints are both a safe container for longing and a mirror of anxieties; they’re back in culture because we’re still searching for meaning and guides—even if we do so with a wink and a meme.

Final thought: Let it be your Hildegard year—embrace creativity, moderation, and vision, without the need for sainthood-level self-denial. [50:29]