Hayao Miyazaki’s Magical Realms

Summary

Summary of "Critics at Large | The New Yorker" Episode: Hayao Miyazaki’s Magical Realms

Episode Information:

• Title: Hayao Miyazaki’s Magical Realms
• Release Date: December 26, 2024
• Host/Author: The New Yorker
• Description: Critics at Large is a weekly culture podcast where staff writers discuss current obsessions, classic texts with fresh perspectives, and emerging trends across various forms of media. This episode explores the enchanting and profound works of Japanese filmmaker Hayao Miyazaki, delving into his storytelling mastery and the themes that make his films resonate globally.

---

Introduction to Hayao Miyazaki

The episode kicks off with the hosts—Alex Schwartz, Chloe Mal (Nomi Frye), and Vincent Cunningham—introducing Hayao Miyazaki as a pivotal figure in animated filmmaking. Vincent Cunningham praises Miyazaki as "the undisputed master of animated film," citing classics like My Neighbor Totoro, Spirited Away, and Princess Mononoke ([02:57]). The trio underscores Miyazaki's unique ability to visually convey complex emotions and narratives, stating, "Every single idea in one of Miyazaki's films... is expressed visually" ([02:57]).

---

Miyazaki's Legacy and Storytelling Craft

Dedication to Hand-Drawn Animation

Vincent Cunningham highlights Miyazaki's unwavering commitment to hand-drawn animation, emphasizing the meticulous and time-consuming process that contributes to the "rare magic" of his films ([04:12]). This dedication ensures that each frame carries profound artistic value, setting Miyazaki apart in the realm of animated storytelling.

Personal Connections to Miyazaki's Films

Chloe Mal shares her personal journey with Miyazaki's work, revealing how My Neighbor Totoro became a cherished family favorite after introducing it to her daughter ([04:22]). She reflects on the initial hesitation to engage with anime but ultimately falling "totally in love" with these films through repeated viewings of Totoro and Kiki's Delivery Service ([04:27]).

---

Exploration of Miyazaki's Iconic Films

My Neighbor Totoro ([04:12] - [04:52])

Chloe Mal reminisces about her first encounter with My Neighbor Totoro, describing it as a heartwarming portrayal of childhood innocence and the magic of imagination. The film's gentle narrative and endearing characters left a lasting impression, fostering her appreciation for Miyazaki's storytelling prowess.

Kiki's Delivery Service ([08:24] - [12:13])

Chloe delves into Kiki's Delivery Service, emphasizing its themes of growth and self-discovery. The film follows Kiki, a 13-year-old aspiring witch, as she navigates the challenges of independence and maturity. Chloe highlights the mentorship between Kiki and Ursula, an older artist, noting, "It's about growing up, about maturing" ([09:11]). This relationship encapsulates the transition from childhood to adolescence, a recurring motif in Miyazaki's work.

Spirited Away ([12:13] - [16:10])

Alex Schwartz provides an in-depth analysis of Spirited Away, detailing the protagonist Chihiro's journey into a magical bathhouse realm after her parents are transformed into pigs. He underscores the film's exploration of work, agency, and survival, stating, "Chihiro's entire existence is now premised on the fact that she has to work" ([15:07]). The narrative serves as an allegory for personal growth and resilience in the face of adversity.

Princess Mononoke ([16:18] - [24:07])

Vincent discusses Princess Mononoke, praising its intricate depiction of the conflict between nature and industrialization. He connects the film to Miyazaki's broader themes of ecological consciousness and moral ambiguity, reflecting on how technology can be both a source of progress and destruction.

The Wind Rises ([16:18] - [24:07])

Focusing on The Wind Rises, Vincent explores its historical context, portraying Jiro Horikoshi, a Japanese engineer responsible for creating military aircraft during World War II. The film delves into the ethical dilemmas of technological advancement, mirroring Miyazaki's contemplations on the duality of creation and destruction.

---

The Boy and the Heron: An In-Depth Analysis

Plot Synopsis ([22:42] - [24:07])

Alex provides a synopsis of Miyazaki's latest film, The Boy and the Heron. The story centers on Mahito, a young boy who, after losing his mother in a wartime firebombing, moves to the countryside with his father and stepmother. Mahito's encounter with a mysterious heron transforms into a humanoid figure, leading him on a surreal quest into a magical realm to rescue his stepmother ([23:08]).

Themes and Symbolism ([24:08] - [32:03])

The hosts dissect the film's rich thematic layers:

• Coexistence with Nature: They discuss how the film portrays the intricate relationship between humans and nature, emphasizing coexistence rather than domination ([27:32]).

• Ethical Implications of Technology: Drawing parallels to The Wind Rises, Vincent highlights the film's contemplation of technological advancements and their potential for both creation and destruction ([21:17]).

• Personal Growth Amidst Trauma: Chloe Mal reflects on Mahito's journey as a metaphor for coping with loss and adapting to new realities, noting Miyazaki's mastery in depicting emotional resilience ([28:35]).

• Autobiographical Elements: Alex points out the autobiographical undertones in the film, suggesting that Miyazaki may be revisiting his own childhood experiences and traumas through Mahito's character ([37:08]).

Notable Scenes and Visual Storytelling ([24:21] - [28:15])

The hosts praise specific scenes for their visual and emotional impact:

• Kiki and Ursula's Interaction: Chloe describes a poignant moment where Ursula reassures Kiki, highlighting the film's emphasis on mentorship and emotional support ([11:09]).

• Chihiro's Labor in the Bathhouse: Alex elaborates on a scene from Spirited Away where Chihiro must work tirelessly, symbolizing the burdens of responsibility and the journey toward self-discovery ([15:07]).

• Mahito's Confrontation with the Heron: The transformation of the heron into a humanoid figure serves as a critical metaphor for confronting inner fears and the unknown ([24:50]).

---

Personal Reflections and Cultural Comparisons

Bridging Childhood and Adulthood ([30:01] - [32:03])

Alex connects the film's narrative to broader literary themes found in children's literature, such as the necessity of returning to reality from fantastical worlds. He references Miyazaki's philosophical work, "How Do You Live?", framing the film's exploration of existence and morality within this context ([30:01]).

Comparisons to Other Works ([40:36] - [44:25])

Vincent draws parallels between The Boy and the Heron and classics like C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, emphasizing themes of escape during wartime and the challenges faced by children in fantastical settings. Chloe adds that Miyazaki's approach allows for a nuanced portrayal of children's agency and resilience, similar to Tove Jansson's Moomin Family ([40:36]).

Miyazaki's Autobiographical Influence ([37:08] - [42:52])

The discussion delves into Miyazaki's personal history, particularly his father's involvement in Japan's war effort, and how this real-life context informs the moral and ethical dilemmas presented in his films. Chloe highlights the film's exploration of familial complicity in violence and the struggle to reconcile personal and societal values ([37:08], [42:52]).

---

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with the hosts reflecting on Miyazaki's enduring relevance and the profound impact of his storytelling. Vincent Cunningham encapsulates Miyazaki's approach by emphasizing the balance between joy and sorrow in his narratives, asserting, "It's about difficulty... You tell a story and it doesn't have a great end and you have a moment of happiness and something bad is happening far away" ([44:46]). They encourage listeners to engage with Miyazaki's films as complex narratives that offer valuable insights into human nature, ethics, and the coexistence of humanity with the natural world.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Vincent Cunningham ([02:57]): "Every single idea in one of Miyazaki's films... is expressed visually."

• Chloe Mal ([11:09]): "I just think it's such a beautiful scene of connection and reassurance between these two girls."

• Alex Schwartz ([15:07]): "Chihiro's entire existence is now premised on the fact that she has to work... it's a way for her to prove herself as a heroine and redeem herself."

• Vincent Cunningham ([27:32]): "These movies are about coexistence and its troubles... that humankind is a participant in a wide field and that living together can get tricky."

• Alex Schwartz ([30:01]): "How do you live when terrible things have happened? How do you live when your own life has changed so radically?"

• Vincent Cunningham ([44:46]): "It's about difficulty... You tell a story and it doesn't have a great end and you have a moment of happiness and something bad is happening far away."

---

This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the Critics at Large episode on Hayao Miyazaki, providing an in-depth look into his films, themes, and lasting impact on animation and storytelling. For those unfamiliar with Miyazaki's work, this summary offers valuable insights into why his films continue to captivate audiences worldwide.

Transcript

[Chloe Mal]

Hi, it's Chloe Mal. I'm the editor of Vogue.com and co host of the Run through with Vogue. And in case you haven't heard, Vogue just launched our all new app. Through the app, you can chat with me and other editors on everything happening in Fashion Shop editor favorites and vote on the best looks of the season. Get real time updates now so you never miss a moment. Download the Vogue app today. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Hi, it's Nomi. While we're on break, my co host and I wanted to share a past episode with you that's one of our favorites. In it, you'll hear us talk about the work of Japanese filmmaker Hayao Miyazaki. We taped it last year around the time that his movie the Boy and the Heron came out in theaters. I don't know about you, but to me there's something about Miyazaki's work that feels really quiet and cozy and just right for these last slow days of the year. Enjoy.

[Alex Schwartz]

Welcome to Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Alex Schwartz.

[Chloe Mal]

I'm Nomi Frye.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Vincent Cunningham. And we are all staff writers at the New Yorker. The show is a place for us to make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Hey, guys.

[Chloe Mal]

Hi.

[Alex Schwartz]

Hello.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So I don't know about you guys, but when I think of some big themes, right, that might help us to better understand contemporary life, I come up with a list like this. The relationship between nature and society. The dangers, the attractions of technology, the power of the imagination, the consciousnesses of children. Each one of these themes actually makes me think of a great artist, Hayao Miyazaki. He's a master storyteller and the undisputed master of animated film. He's made movies like My Neighbor, Totoro, Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, and along the way, he's become beloved in Japan, where he works, of course, but also here in the States. For me, the rare magic in his work comes from how every single idea in one of Miyazaki's films, it's, you know, a plot point, a dream, a moment of horror is expressed visually. Before any word is spoken, you understand what's happening because some terrifying or wonderful image will grab you by the throat. Mahito Miyazaki. He is now 82 years old, and he's spent the last seven years making a new film.

[Alex Schwartz]

Mother, have a seat.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's called the Boy and the Heron. It's a film about a young boy named Mahito who's grieving the loss of his mother. As he's getting used to a new life, a new home, a new stepmother, he's visited by this kind of deranged, increasingly deranged, I should say.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Gray heron. Dear Mother.

[Chloe Mal]

She's awaiting your rescue.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Who taps on his window, makes these weird visitations, and coaxes him into this dangerous, magical realm.

[Chloe Mal]

What is this place?

[Alex Schwartz]

This world is filled with the dead.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So today on Critics at Large, we're talking about the lasting mark that Miyazaki has made on the life of the imagination, really, everywhere, across the globe, and how his legacy is taking shape with this latest film, the Boy in the Harem. Don't let go, no matter what.

[Alex Schwartz]

Ready?

[Vincent Cunningham]

We'll get into it.

[Alex Schwartz]

Let's do it.

[Chloe Mal]

Let's do it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So to start out, Miyazaki as a director can be a little bit hard to place. What are your first encounters with Miyazaki? I can tell you. I studied Japanese in high school, and our teacher.

[Chloe Mal]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Shout out to you, Fujisaki Sensei. She introduced us to these films as a way of. As a sort of language learning tool. I have lost the Japanese. I have kept the Miyazaki. How about you?

[Chloe Mal]

Do you remember the first one?

[Vincent Cunningham]

The first one was Totoro.

[Chloe Mal]

My name was Totoro.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Chloe Mal]

Okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

And was your mind blown?

[Vincent Cunningham]

My mind and my linguistic capacities were both blown.

[Alex Schwartz]

You decided that you would never become fluent. You just knew in that moment.

[Chloe Mal]

That's what I knew. I never know Japanese.

[Vincent Cunningham]

How about you guys? Any?

[Chloe Mal]

For me, it was. I mean, I remember hearing about me when Spirited Away came out in 2001, and I remember not seeing it because I was like, oh, this is anime. This is like fantasy stuff. But then cut to, like 10 years later, when my daughter was young, when she was a toddler, and people were like, oh, you should show her Miyazaki movies. And I was like, okay. I guess, you know, you're so desperate as, like, a young mother for any children's entertainment that's like, not horrible, you know, and not like some horrible YouTube video or something. I was like, okay, I'll show her Miyazaki. Whatever. I probably won't like it because it's kind of not my thing. But we watch Totoro, my neighbor Totoro. We watch Kiki's delivery service, and I just totally fell in love. Yeah. And have, like, watched especially these two movies, Totoro and Kiki, like, a million times.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's amazing.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Alex, this podcast has become the occasion for your first impressions.

[Chloe Mal]

Thank you for this season.

[Alex Schwartz]

Thank you, Pod. I am a Miyazaki newbie. And when I first said this, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. That's so kind of you to welcome me. And I have never really watched Miyazaki before. Certainly I've been aware of him. But now I have stepped afoot into this crazy, wonderful, magical, weird universe. And so many thoughts about it, but one that just sticks out right away is how very true to Dreamworld these movies are. One thing that happens in dream life is very specific. Things happen without logical connection. And I feel that this is often missed when people try to make movies about dreams. You know, famously, I'm no huge fan of Inception, and one reason.

[Chloe Mal]

Oh, I hated that movie.

[Alex Schwartz]

And one reason. I'm not trying to go out of my way to run over Christopher Nolan here, but one reason is that in Inception, there is a kind of framework that dreams can operate in, and that's not true. What happens in dream life is that bits and pieces of the normal world and bits and pieces of worlds that we have never experienced or known emerge and start to mesh together. And if you enter a movie like Spirited Away or the Boy and the Heron, that is what is immediately going to happen to you. You are in a kind of lucid dream where things make sense and then don't and then do. But that was one thing that I really loved and also found true to childhood, where, of course, things happen for reasons that don't make sense. We see their effects, but we don't really understand their causes. And kids who have, you know, altogether pretty little agency over their lives are often left wondering what is happening in the world that they're in.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Right. What's real, what's not?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It strikes me like thinking about animation. Right. Sometimes we just think about it as a marker of a childhood thing or something like that. This is for children. Something like that. It strikes me that these films need to be animated because you need the flexibility visually to capture some of this, like, strange, irreducible, non realistic logic of dreams. Like it has to. These images over which he labors for, you know, famously seven years in the newest case, have to be sort of made in this way. So we've talked about how amazing these films are. Visually, but we are going to try to relate them to you, our listeners. We thought we'd choose some clips from the films that we like. A couple favorites. Let's start with you knowmi.

[Chloe Mal]

Okay. Yes. So As I said, two of my favorites are my neighbor Totoro from 1988 and Kiki's Delivery Service from 1989. Both of the movies are about childhood and growing up, I would say. And Kiki's Delivery Service specifically is about a girl, Kiki, who is 13 and she's kind of an intern witch, or she's an inspiring witch. Her mom is a witch. The way it works is that when you're around 13 years old as an aspirant witch, you are meant to leave your home and go off seeking your fortune and go to another town and become that town's resident witch. And you do that by flying on a broom.

[Alex Schwartz]

And so as is traditional.

[Chloe Mal]

As is traditional. And so Kiki has been struggling with growing up basically. And she goes to visit a friend, an older girl, which also the relationship between them is a beautiful. A beautiful encapsulation of what it's like as like a 13 year old girl to like meet like an 18 year old girl and sort of like, you know, learn what it's like to be a little bit more sophisticated and so on. And this older girl is an artist named Ursula, who is giving Kiki a kind of pep talk, I guess, about how she'll be able to regain her powers as a witch. But it's also about growing up, about maturing. So I'm going to just stop play this.

[Alex Schwartz]

Why don't you go inside and I'll go get some water.

[Chloe Mal]

Okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay. So I think we should say that what we're seeing is Kiki standing stunned much as we are.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah. By a beautiful mural that Ursula has painted. I've been waiting for you to come back so I can try again.

[Alex Schwartz]

You mean that's me? Sure is. You know, you'd make my life a.

[Chloe Mal]

Lot easier if you'd model for me. But I'm not very beautiful.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What do you want me to do that for?

[Chloe Mal]

Come on, Kiki. You have got a great face.

[Alex Schwartz]

You're so. Ursula's so cool.

[Chloe Mal]

I know.

[Alex Schwartz]

Don't you be nervous.

[Chloe Mal]

Sit down over here.

[Alex Schwartz]

And now Ursula is drawing Kiki.

[Chloe Mal]

Yes. Raise your chin up a little.

[Alex Schwartz]

Can we say that Kiki is being silent? Seen by Ursula.

[Chloe Mal]

She's being seen by Ursula.

[Vincent Cunningham]

She's.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

In a deep way.

[Alex Schwartz]

In a deep way.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah. Without even thinking about it. I used to be Able to fly now. I'm trying to look inside myself to find out how I did it, but I just can't figure it out, you know?

[Alex Schwartz]

Could be you're working at it too hard. Maybe you should just take a break.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah, but still, if I can't fly, then stop trying.

[Alex Schwartz]

Take long walks, look at the scenery. Doze off at noon.

[Chloe Mal]

Don't even think about flying.

[Alex Schwartz]

And then pretty soon, you'll be flying again.

[Chloe Mal]

This is so beautiful.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Go away.

[Chloe Mal]

That's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's gonna be fine. I promise.

[Chloe Mal]

I'm just, like, literally tearing up.

[Alex Schwartz]

Nomi is gonna watch the entire rest of the film. I've watched it so many times. And then she's gonna start it from the beginning.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And listeners, Nomi is, in fact, tearing up.

[Alex Schwartz]

Nomi, what's getting you about the scene?

[Chloe Mal]

I don't know. I just think it's such a beautiful scene of connection and reassurance between these two girls. And the older one, who has more experience, is telling the younger one, it's gonna be okay, you know? It's like growing up is hard. Learning how to be a person is hard. Learning how to be an artist is hard. But it's gonna happen.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Encouragement we all need. It's wonderful. Alex.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes, hello.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Do you have something that you'd like to show the class?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. So I'm gonna try to describe in words, in pitiful words, a scene that Miyazaki has rendered an exquisite drawing and animation. All right. So Spirited Away once again, is the 2001 Miyazaki film that won the Oscar for best Animated feature. In Spirited Way, we have Chihiro, who is traveling with her parents. She's an only child, relatable to some of us, and she's traveling with her parents. They see a kind of magical spread in front of them. Grass. Beautiful things. It seems to be an amusement park with all kinds of eateries that has closed. One eatery is open. Parents immediately begin chowing down on the food that is in front of them and turn into pigs. Oops.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, no.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, no.

[Chloe Mal]

I hate when that happens.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's horrible when that happens. Classic problem. At which point, Chihiro. A number of things happen, but she enters the realm where her parents are being kept as pigs, and it turns out to be this enormous bathhouse. She is told by a helpful friend, Haku, that she must try to seek work with the coal master. What is the right word? With a furnace master?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Furnace master sounds great.

[Alex Schwartz]

With a furnace master. The furnace master. She has to demand to employment with the furnace master because humans smell delicious. To the creatures in this realm. And otherwise she'll be eaten. And so she enters the furnace. And this is the scene that I'm trying to describe. There is a man spider. An anthropomorphized spider? No, it's a man with extra arms, extra limbs, and he's using all of these limbs, and he's reaching behind him with some of his spider limbs and opening these drawers. These beautiful wooden drawers that have bits of herbs and essences and wood chips.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Four bath tokens at once. Come on, get to work, you little. Runs. Yeah, I'm Kaji, Slave to the boiler that heats the baths. Move it, you stupid sootballs.

[Chloe Mal]

Please, I've gotta get a job here.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I don't need any help. The place is.

[Alex Schwartz]

There are few things that are great about this scene. One is just Spider Man. I mean, beautiful. This is my Spider Man. And also, it contains amazing cuteness in the form of these little coal sprites. Who are these little guys? These little coal widgets who are just trying to, like, beep, beep, beep, squeak across the floor, carrying on their tiny backs these coal bricks that then get thrust into the oven.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Hey, you runt. You want to turn back into soot? And you back off. You can't just take someone else's job. If they don't work, the spell wears off. They turn back into soot. There's no work for you here. Got it? Try somewhere else.

[Alex Schwartz]

So many things are great here, but another thing is just work. Kids are really interested in work and what it is to work. And I love that. In order to seek admission to this world, Chihiro's entire existence is now premised on the fact that she has to work. I mean, even as I say this, I understand the analogy to the real world, in which that is very literally the case for all people. But, you know, she has to work. She has to. And that is something that I do think shows up in childhood literature. These kind of fantasies of work life, and also really hard toil, which ends up becoming a way for her to prove herself as a heroine and redeem herself. So that kind of practical and fantastical mix.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah, it's very Little Princess or something.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, Vincent, what are some of your favorites? Or your very favorite, if you're ready to. To go that far.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Favorite is hard. I love Princess Mononoke. I love Spirited Away. But something that really kind of changed my view and deepened, I guess. My view of Miyazaki is something I just watched recently. It's called the Wind Rises, which was a film that came out in 2013, and it's kind of a historical epic. It's about a real life figure, Jiro Horikoshi, who was kind of the great Japanese engineer who created, unfortunately, the military aircraft that were used by Japan in World War II. An amazing engineer and thinker who, when he was younger, was working for Mitsubishi at the time of trying to create these planes, and they failed and failed and failed. And soon after this, in the film, he has a dream, and the dream is a sort of recurring dream. He's obsessed with this Italian designer, Giovanni Battista Caproni. And Caproni is like his hero. He's read textbooks in which this name appears.

[Chloe Mal]

This is a real person.

[Vincent Cunningham]

This is another real person. And Giro has a dream with Caproni. And this time it's about. The substance of the dream is about technological development on the one hand, and the potential negative uses of technology on the other. They're having this, like, fairly sophisticated conversation in the dream. Can I show you the scene?

[Chloe Mal]

Oh, yes, please.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And I should say that the dream takes place on board one of Caproni's great plane. So they're on a plane up high in the air, walking out on a wing, looking out at the clouds, having this conversation.

[Alex Schwartz]

Cue it up, baby.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Beautiful Italian river music.

[Chloe Mal]

Which would you choose, a world with pyramids or without?

[Alex Schwartz]

What do you mean?

[Chloe Mal]

Humanity has always dreamed of flight, but the dream is cursed. My aircraft are destined to become tools for slaughter and destruction. I know, but still I choose a world with pyramids in it. Which world will you choose?

[Alex Schwartz]

I just want to create beautiful airplanes like that.

[Chloe Mal]

We see a beautiful airplane.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Beautiful airplane soaring, swan like plane flying.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I have not seen such clouds since Michelangelo. I have a long way to go. I don't even have an engine or a cockpit yet.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Jiro kind of throws the plane as it fits, a paper plane, and it goes back into flight. It's a very beautiful image.

[Chloe Mal]

This is my last design. Artists are only creative for 10 years. We engineers are no different.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Live your 10 years well, Japanese boy. So what's interesting to me about this is another thing that Miyazaki does a lot, which is talk about the horrors of reality, truly realistic things as either a way of changing the way someone sees or inaugurating someone into a new sort of position toward the world or toward art or something else. At the beginning of this film, the wind rises. Jiro lives through the Great Kanto earthquake, which was 1923, I believe, a huge earthquake that destroyed Tokyo. And Tokyo had to be Rebuilt. And Jiro sees the sort of the wreckage that this. I noticed. Miyazaki's great with fire. And you see these huge flames flying through the air of Tokyo like ash descending on the city. And as we'll talk about in the Boy and the Heron.

[Chloe Mal]

Yes. Which opens with a fire.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It opens with a fire, opens with the fires of World War II. And this is how Mahito loses his mother. So it's really interesting. Bracketing of war and destruction and carnage on the one hand. And on the other hand, the specifics of the Japanese past, Japan's history. I mean, just to put a finer point on it, these planes that Jiro will eventually go on to help invent are the planes that were used in the horrific Pacific theater of World War II. Horrible, unspeakable things done to Koreans and others which end with another technological horror. The bomb, you know, the nuclear bomb. So it's like, what does technology mean? And I think it's such an interesting way to posit that.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah, it's like kind of like an animating trauma, you know, from whence comes destruction also emerges the artist or something, you know.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay, so we're going to take a break, and when we're back, we'll talk about Miyazaki's new film, the Boy and the Heron.

[Chloe Mal]

Yes. And especially about the parakeets.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, my God.

[Chloe Mal]

And the pelicans.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And the frogs.

[Chloe Mal]

And the frogs.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And the.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, God, Vincent just did a frog. That's.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's the video that you guys will get later. That's in a.

[Chloe Mal]

That's on our Patreon.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right, exactly. That's in a minute on Critics at Large from the New Yorker.

[Chloe Mal]

Hi, everybody.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm Michael Colori, director of consumer tech and culture at Wired. I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior writer at Wired. And I'm Zoe Schiffer, director of business.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And industry at Wired.

[Alex Schwartz]

We're here to tell you about our new podcast, Uncanny Valley. It's about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley. Every week we get together to talk about a story or a phenomenon bubbling up in Silicon Valley and how that thing is probably affecting you. We're super excited about the show, and we think you're going to love it. You can listen to Uncanny Valley wherever.

[Chloe Mal]

You get your podcasts.

[Alex Schwartz]

Subscribe now, so you won't miss a beat.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So, one thing to note about Miyazaki, because his work looks so free and effortlessly imaginative, but the truth is that he's extremely dedicated to hand drawn Animation. Because of this, his process of making films is painstaking. They take years and years to finish. So about seven years ago, he started working on a new film, the Boy and the Heron. Could somebody just give us again a quick synopsis of this film?

[Alex Schwartz]

I will try. Please, if I may.

[Chloe Mal]

Please.

[Alex Schwartz]

All right. So the film opens in wartime Japan. It's 1943, in Tokyo with the city on fire. A hospital has been firebombed. And in that hospital is the mother of the hero of the film, Mahito, who dies in this horrible fire. He and his father, the next year leave Tokyo and go move to the countryside, where his father is marrying another woman, or maybe has married her. We actually don't really know exactly what's going on. That's right. And Mahito moves in with his stepmother into this fabulous house. And how am I doing so far? Are you with me? You with me?

[Chloe Mal]

Yes, we're with you.

[Alex Schwartz]

Mito's father goes, works in a factory where he's building planes.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah. Much like Jiro in the Wind Rises. And much like Miyazaki's father, actually.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. This film is this film.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Themes abound.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, themes abound. This film certainly has autobiographical elements. And Mihito feels really alone. Okay, the heron. A heron enters the scene. A very beautiful, elegant bird at first. But after some magical stuff goes down involving Mihito entering this kind of forbidden realm behind the houses, this heron turns out to be a horrible, freaky man with a bulbous nose, basically wearing a heron suit. And that is something I don't understand and don't think I can understand, and I don't think I should understand it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Right. It's, like, gradually revealed that this is what it is. First it looks like a heron, then it has human teeth. And then we see this nose coming up from like.

[Chloe Mal]

It's gradual.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's gradual.

[Chloe Mal]

It's gradual until suddenly, like Wallace Shawn and Princess Bride emerges from the heron's bill.

[Alex Schwartz]

Right, Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh, the Boy and the Heron. A wonderful movie about interspecies friendship. Kind of not and kind of, yes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Kind of, yes. Kind of not. Kind of yes.

[Alex Schwartz]

Kind of not and kind of yes. I mean, Mahito has at this point, entered this other realm to try to find his stepmother, who's been taken in somehow, who's disappeared and bring her back, and all sorts of adventures ensue in this other realm.

[Chloe Mal]

Yes, definitely.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Chloe Mal]

And so it's a quest.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's a quest. That's right. It's a quest. There are a lot of. I mean, this is also what I found interesting. Cause I was aware that Miyazaki's engaged with ecological themes and so on. This is a beautiful world that Mihito is entering. And of course, the world, the real world, is being destroyed and despoiled by war.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

But nonetheless, animal life is not necessarily kind. We already have Freaky heron, man. And then we have this army at a certain point, this kind of fascist parakeet army where these big puffed up parakeets will do whatever King Parakeet insists that they do. And they are out for blood, these guys.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

There's a charming scene where they're all, like, preparing their sweet banquet. They're sharpening their knives and they're cutting up the cake.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Beautiful looking cake.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, the cake. And I think there are also a bunch of squashes and other vegetables that they're lovingly starting to chop to go along with the main roast.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, that's right. Which would. The main human roast. To be clear, there's also a great scene where we're still learning about this heron.

[Alex Schwartz]

What exactly are you?

[Chloe Mal]

I know you're not a normal heron.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The heron's up in the sky and he. It, I guess, at this point, lands on water and then starts kind of running across the water. Its webbed feet sort of skittering across the surface. Comes up. I shall now guide you to your mother.

[Chloe Mal]

Your what?

[Vincent Cunningham]

How dare you.

[Chloe Mal]

My mother is dead.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Has this long conversation with Mahito that ends with Mahito being covered from the legs up by a legion of frogs. They, like, come up as if from the mud and they cover him. Like, all you can see is, like, his eyes and they're closing across him. I think there's a good point where it's like, no, the animal world isn't necessarily friendly. Nor do we get the sense ever that they ought to be friendly, you know, these movies.

[Chloe Mal]

Because also, the humans aren't friendly.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The humans aren't that. Yeah.

[Chloe Mal]

Necessarily.

[Vincent Cunningham]

These movies are what kept on the phrase that came to me after a while was humane but not anthropocentric.

[Alex Schwartz]

Right.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's not about, you know, human man's conquest over nature or some sort of, you know, Kipling thing like that. It's about coexistence and its troubles. You know, that humankind is a participant in a wide field and that living together can get tricky.

[Alex Schwartz]

And it also does propose this world in which, you know, what if humans were food, as animals are food for us.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

What would that be like.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And wouldn't that be.

[Alex Schwartz]

Just couldn't. Yeah, yeah, it wouldn't be.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So I do wonder, how does this movie then for you? Sort of. We've talked maybe about how it continues, some of the work that we've known and loved before. But where for you does it depart?

[Chloe Mal]

Well, I think, you know, it's. I mean, I love this movie. I think my favorite Miyazaki, if I had to choose, would be the Miyazaki that is about complication but ultimately reassurance. Whereas this is not a movie that you would watch with a five year old.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Maybe not if you wanted. Unless you wanted to ruin their life and perception.

[Chloe Mal]

Because it's scary. It's scary. And a lot of it is about horror and a lot of it is about death. And it's a bit of a more of a challenging viewing experience. Which is not to say that's not a bad thing, it's just a matter of personal preference. But I do think one thing that I appreciated about the Boy in the Hare and that I appreciate about Miyazaki in general is that so many of his works are about letting go of the fantasy of the mother, of the fantasy of total care. Right. You know, his mother dies at the very, very beginning. And then when he goes on this quest, he meets a lot of characters or several characters that serve as potential mother figures that he kind of tries out and learns things from before he can return towards the end to the real world and kind of come to accept the new circumstances of his life and kind of move on. And I think that's so beautifully done and something that Miyazaki is really a master at.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What were some of the lines of continuity or discontinuity for you, Alex, given your sort of more recent induction?

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, one is, I think, a theme that goes across cultures in children's literature when it has to do with fantasy, which is the need to re enter one's own world. And, you know, that is the kind of given we can't choose to stay behind. Like Wendy and her and her brothers are gonna come back from Neverland and Alice has to return in time for tea. And there's this tension between the need to escape circumstance and the need to return to it and accept it. And I think part of what the movie is about and some of its darker parts have to do with what we have to do in life. Circumstances that we have to accept and live with. So he's given a book late in the film called how do youo Live?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yes.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I think that's So I was reading about this in 1937. Right. Is this 1937 Japanese children's book? And that is a profound name for any book to have, let alone a children's book. Oh, my God.

[Vincent Cunningham]

When I was a child, the book that my mother gave me was called It's Perfectly Normal, and it was about sex. So very different.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. How do you live? That question animates the movie. And it's also the name of this film in Japanese, not the Boy and the Heron, which obviously it's asking a bigger philosophical question. How do you live when terrible things have happened? How do you live when your own life has changed so radically? And what choices do you make and how do they affect you and the people around you and the creatures around you?

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

So all of those things getting wrestled into this movie, the answer becomes you have to return to the place where your living has to be done. And there's a. You know, it's tempting to stay behind, or it's tempting to want to stay behind. It's certainly tempting as a viewer, I think, to want the character to forever and this magical universe.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

But those things have to be given up to accept this kind of bigger moral obligation.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah. Talk about putting aside childish things in some way. You know, it reminded me maybe a year ago, I wrote about this TV show, this Japanese TV show, Old Enough.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I love that show. Jesus Christ.

[Chloe Mal]

So, yeah, so for those of our list.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, I know the show you're talking about.

[Chloe Mal]

For those of our listeners who aren't familiar, it's a show show. It's a reality show, I guess, or a documentary show, whatever you. You want to call it, where children as young as, like, literally three, you know, like two and 10 months. Some are young, you know, some are, like, so young. Are sent on their own by their parents and filmed at it as they learn how to do errands. Okay. So they might be sent down the street to the fishmonger to get, like, you know, tuna for father's lunch, you know, or. Or they might go. A lot of the stuff is food related, you know, going to the grocer's or, you know, it's. It's like. And they're babies. Babies, you know, they've barely learned to walk. They've barely learned to walk. Sent off and, you know, everybody is really helpful, obviously. They're also. They're followed by camera crew. You know, these kids are gonna be okay. And yet they are left pretty much to their own devices, and then they have to car bag back to the house and the bag breaks and, you know, all sorts of hijinks ensue. But the point of this show strikes me as not totally dissimilar to. I don't know if to call it the point of Miyazaki's movies or the Boy and the Heron, because those movies are complicated and have many points. But the idea of, okay, buck up, you know, you have to be strong and certain bad things happen, but you have to contend with that and go back to the real world.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We're gonna take a break, and then we're gonna contend with some stuff, too.

[Chloe Mal]

That show is crazy, though.

[Alex Schwartz]

That show's crazy.

[Chloe Mal]

I mean, it's great.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I love it.

[Chloe Mal]

And I love the voiceover where it's like. I mean, it's in Japanese, so. But it's like, oh, who's a big baby crying for mother? It's time to get back on your feet and walk to the fishmonger.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Critics at large from the New Yorker will be back in a minute. Seattle in the 90s.

[Alex Schwartz]

A tidal wave of iconic music roars.

[Chloe Mal]

Out of this sleepy city and launches a pop culture revolution.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Here's a story you haven't heard. Let the Kids Dance is a new podcast about the rise and fall of.

[Chloe Mal]

Seattle's Teen Dance ordinance, the law that made it illegal for young people to go to concerts.

[Vincent Cunningham]

A story of moral panic, grassroots activism.

[Chloe Mal]

And an unstoppable music community that fought for its freedom. Listen to Let the Kids Dance from KUOW and the NPR network.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, I'm really compelled by the discussion that we just had about just sort of teaching kids to buck up. Not in a grumpy way, but in a heartening way.

[Chloe Mal]

And not in a way that ignores the hardships.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No, I mean, you can only buck up if you acknowledge hardships, but you can only deliver one message.

[Chloe Mal]

It's not repressing it. It's not saying, oh, you have it good. Shut up and get up. It's like, oh, yeah, here's the world, right?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's an outlay. And I think this might sort of dovetail with something that we've talked about before when we talked about Martin Scorsese. If you haven't heard that episode, you might want to go back and listen to it.

[Chloe Mal]

Great episode.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Just about the late work of artists, people who have refined their approach film by film or novel by novel, and arrived at something that seems final. It does seem to me that this might be a kind of, and I think it's been described this way by Miyazaki, among others, as a Kind of goodbye statement to him. And it seems to me that he's always been in contact. I mean, what you played for us, know me from Kiki, is a similar thing, in contact with the young, trying to relay messages. And here it's like an older person, a person that's kind of preparing his way to leave the scene. We won't give too much away, but at the end of the Boy and the Heron, there is an ancestor of Mahito, an older man who wants to sort of relay to him a mantle. This world I've created, and all my power, every little bit of it, originates.

[Chloe Mal]

From this stone, that stone. So that stone is what created this whole seaworld.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And there's more work to be done. Worlds are living things, and they can be infected by mold and bugs.

[Chloe Mal]

I have grown old.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I seek someone to be my successor. Mahito, will you continue my work? You want me, right? To say, you know, you take up my work. This kind of. I'm exiting, you're entering. And part of your. The rite of passage is again, to acknowledge this difficulty. What. What did that part of this film feel like to you? The sort of this deep acknowledgment that children have consciousnesses that we all had and perhaps we forget too quickly and what's going on in the lives of children.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, it is very interesting to me that Miyazaki chose to be so autobiographical. I mean, I know that he has said he will retire before and kind of keeps popping out of retirement, but at 82, it does seem like this could. I mean, very likely is his last film. So how interesting that he decides to return to his own childhood. And, you know, there is something about his vision of children like he has been called. I think even Margaret Talbot in the New Yorker, who wrote a great profile of Miyazaki a number of years ago.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Back in 2005, I believe.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. So a little while ago, it was after Spirited Away, she called him, like, maybe the first auteur of children's filmmaking. And I think there is something so specific to his vision of what childhood is, even as it corresponds with all these other tropes of children's films or literature that we can name. So in a way, I feel like he's kind of going back to his own origin point for all of it and partly trying to show us where it might have come from. But it really feels very personal with this, you know, this almost adolescent boy avatar discovering the wideness of the world during wartime in Japan. Like, I feel like he wants to rediscover where it might have come from for himself.

[Chloe Mal]

Right, yeah. And I think too, I mean, again, I think Pixar, for instance, you know, has made Disney, let's say more more broadly, has made some incredible movies. You know, I think, you know, we spoke of Ratatouille in our Frederick Weissman and Restaurant episode, you know, they'll never forget. But I do think there's something about Miyazaki working from a perspective that's not monolithic American. These are not movies, or not like originally movies. But as I was rewatching Miyazaki this weekend, I was like, oh, this is kind of like the Tove Janssen's Moomin Family, where it's an ongoing saga of these cute but kind of sometimes selfish, sometimes idiotic, sometimes adorable, sometimes mean characters. You know, Janssen was able to treat children's inner lives seriously, you know, and to think about made up characters as straddling the divide between children's entertainment and adult entertainment and treating both of these demographics with respect. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It seems just in terms of other things that this reminds me of. Actually halfway through, I realized, oh, like, this reminds me at least the setup of the Chronicles of Narnia, which is like, you know, C.S. lewis, especially the book the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is, like, formative for me. I've read those books over and over into my adulthood. And it starts. I just remembered that it starts with these children going to this house that of course has the enchanted wardrobe in it, but they leave London to come to the countryside because of the war.

[Alex Schwartz]

Raids in the wartime bombing.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. And so it seems to me that, you know, one lesson here or one, it's not a message, and it's never as simple as a sort of psa, but in fact, it's a complexifying thing, which is that wherever you are, whether it seems to be peaceful, whether things are scary or they're not, there's something happening somewhere.

[Chloe Mal]

Right.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And that our lives are lived in this plural, multiple way that, like, and you have to learn this as a child that, you know, this is the, I mean, this is, I guess, one of the lessons of cable tv. Right. You know, your life might be okay, but there's a war on somewhere totally. There's pain somewhere totally. And often that pain is within, but sometimes it's without. And you have to learn how to live your life along multiple tracks, you know.

[Chloe Mal]

Yeah. And often you're the beneficiary of someone else's pain in some ways, you know, and the Boy and the Heron and I think also from what I read in the Margaret Talbot profile, in Miyazaki's own life, his father, his very own father was active in the war effort, you know, both in the movie and in real life, you know, building weapons of destruction for the actual war that was going on at the time. And how do you resolve that? You know, how do you feel about your own flesh and blood being complicit in. In this sort of violence? You know, how does it trickle into your own life? And how do you deal with it ethically? No easy answers. You know, there's a moral complexity that you need to learn.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. Vincent, what you're saying is really hitting me. It's so interesting, this connection between the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and the Boy and the Heron, and this idea of escape in wartime. And of course, we're talking right now as we see children being affected by war in such a profound way. And one thing that those two works have in common, and I think more than those two works, like there is these fantasy worlds, and I cannot stress this enough, are not safe. But there are places in which children have agency to act. And that is like, the dangers are vast in many ways, more present. You know, in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, those kids are safe in the English countryside. And the boy in the Heron, he's safe in the Japanese countryside. Nothing is coming to find him. But he is thrust into this world of non safety, and the difference is that he's able to negotiate it. And, you know, that question of how do you live? It has so many different valences. How do you live in any time? How do you survive? How do you, like, manage to live? And just that granting of agency to children, which I think the great children's writers or animators do, is so present in these Miyazaki films and so touching.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Have you guys seen the memes of Miyazaki at his desk? Absolutely. In a state of anguish and despair.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, I think one of them may have appeared even on your own Instagram.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I posted one this morning.

[Chloe Mal]

I'm off Instagram currently, so unfortunately, I missed that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, there are like, these meme.

[Alex Schwartz]

Honestly, I found that so reassuring. Can you describe the image?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, Miyazaki, he's like, you know, handsome guy with a beard and a mop of white hair, a vest on and over the vest, a kind of apron. And he's sitting at his desk, cigarette hanging from his lip, his hands, like, over his head and in his hair. Just a total state of anguish. And there are many of these images. Some of them have words.

[Alex Schwartz]

It is a picture of despair.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Despair. And you know, there are many of them. Some of them have under them the subtitles of what he's saying. He's like, I hate writing. This is awful. And he's like, but if somebody tells me to quit, I tell them to shut up. And it's such a picture, like, not only of the difficulties of the writing life, but we might, like, make a metaphor out of this. It's just like there's no resolution. You tell a story and it doesn't have a great end and you have a moment of happiness and something bad is happening far away. Or you are in the middle of your work and something bad happens to you. It's like, it's about difficulty.

[Chloe Mal]

Fuck up and keep going.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yes, that's from us to you, listeners. Fuck up and get on with it. Okay?

[Chloe Mal]

Fuck up, buck up and keep going.

[Vincent Cunningham]

This has been Critics at Large. Our senior producer is Rhiannon Corby and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Alexis Cuadrado composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from Jake Loomis with mixing from Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at large@New Yorker.com slash critics and remember that. Now you can email us. Our email is themailewyorker.com T H E M A I L@New Yorker.com we would love to hear from you. We'll be back in January. Get ready for 2025 with brand new episodes of Critics of Art. Have wonderful holidays and we'll see you in the new year.

[Chloe Mal]

Hi, I'm Deborah Treisman, fiction editor of the New Yorker. Each week on the Writer's Voice podcast, New Yorker fiction writers read their newly published stories from the magazines. You can hear from authors like Colson Whitehead.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Turner nudged Elwood, who had a look of horror on his face. They saw it. Griff wasn't going down.

[Chloe Mal]

He was going to go for it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No matter what happened after.

[Chloe Mal]

Or Joy Williams, her father, was silent. Slowly, he passed his hand over his hair. This usually meant that he was traveling to a place immune to her presence, a place that indeed contradicted her presence. She might as well go to lunch, listen to news stories or dive into our archive of great fiction. You can find the work of your favorite fiction writers and discover new ones. Listen and follow the Writer's Voice wherever you get your podcasts from PRX.