Lessons from “Sesame Street”

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker
Episode: Lessons from “Sesame Street”
Release Date: May 29, 2025

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Introduction

In the May 29, 2025 episode of Critics at Large, The New Yorker's panel of critics—Nomi Fry, Vinson Cunningham, and Alex Schwartz—delve deep into the enduring legacy and evolving landscape of the iconic children's television program, Sesame Street. The discussion navigates through the show's inception, its cultural and educational impact over 55 years, recent challenges amidst changing media landscapes, and the critical shifts in its programming under new distribution models.

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Personal Connections and Cultural Significance

The episode begins with the hosts sharing their personal connections to Sesame Street, highlighting its pervasive influence across generations. Alex Schwartz introduces the topic by emphasizing the show's universal resonance with audiences of all ages, noting, “It’s something that almost anyone who grew up in the United States and possibly farther away... has some kind of relationship to” (02:20).

Nomi Fry shares her multicultural experience with the show, recounting how it played a pivotal role in her early English language acquisition through the Israeli adaptation, Chofzum Shtik. She reflects, “I learned English from Sesame Street... it played kind of an imperative role for me” (08:00).

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The Groundbreaking Inception of Sesame Street

The hosts provide a historical overview of Sesame Street, discussing its launch in November 1969 during a period marked by the Great Society and the Civil Rights Movement. Alex Schwartz references a New Yorker piece by Jill Lepore, highlighting how the show was conceived as an educational response to the growing concern over children's passive consumption of television. The collaboration with Jim Henson brought a unique blend of educational rigor and playful irreverence to the program, creating a “fun, but not saccharine fun” atmosphere (15:22).

Nomi Fry cites Renata Adler’s 1972 analysis, describing Sesame Street as a fusion of New Deal federal planning, educational research, and artistic talent aimed at using television as a tool for rational and humane education for children (15:22).

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Key Moments: Addressing Real-Life Issues

A standout feature discussed is the show’s handling of real-life issues, exemplified by the poignant episode where Mr. Hooper—a beloved human character—passes away. Alex Schwartz lauds this moment as “one of the most radical and revolutionary moments in television history,” noting how it respectfully introduced children to the concept of death without pandering or oversimplifying the emotions involved (20:22).

Nomi Fry echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the show’s approach to meeting children “at their own level and respecting the fact that they don’t know what it means for someone to die” (19:34). The hosts discuss how such moments demonstrate Sesame Street's commitment to addressing complex emotions with honesty and empathy.

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Evolution and Challenges in the Modern Era

Transitioning to contemporary times, the hosts examine recent developments affecting Sesame Street. Alex Schwartz highlights the transition from HBO Max to Netflix distribution, expressing concerns over changes in episode formatting and messaging. She critiques the recent episode, “Lights, Camera, Cher,” for its overt messaging on sharing, which she feels shifts the show from its original blend of education and entertainment to a more didactic approach (34:00).

Vinson Cunningham concurs, describing the episode as “driven around message” and lamenting the loss of the show’s inherent entertainment value that once allowed children to engage with educational content more organically (39:42). He reflects on the importance of maintaining a balance between educational objectives and creative storytelling.

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Impact of Funding Cuts and Organizational Changes

The discussion addresses the broader challenges facing Sesame Street, including funding cuts and organizational shifts. Nomi Fry mentions the 20% staff layoffs at Sesame Workshop earlier in the year and the uncertainty surrounding the show's future following the end of the HBO distribution deal. She notes, “The federal government has cut public funding for PBS... Sesame’s future seemed to be unsure” (42:18).

The recent switch to Netflix is seen as a double-edged sword. While it promises wider accessibility and simultaneous releases, there are concerns about maintaining the show's educational integrity and cultural relevance. Alex Schwartz points out that Netflix plans to streamline the show’s format, potentially sacrificing the rich, magazine-style variety that has been a hallmark of Sesame Street (43:30).

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Consensus and Future Outlook

Despite the criticisms and challenges, the hosts agree on the intrinsic value of Sesame Street. Vinson Cunningham passionately declares, “Yes, long may it live” (50:30), underscoring the show's essential role in cultural education and community building.

Alex Schwartz and Nomi Fry echo this sentiment, advocating for a balance between preserving the show's foundational values and adapting to contemporary educational and entertainment needs. They emphasize the importance of maintaining Sesame Street as a public resource that nurtures creativity, inclusivity, and communal values for future generations (51:58).

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Concluding Remarks

The episode wraps up with a reaffirmation of Sesame Street's enduring legacy and its pivotal role in shaping educational children's programming. The hosts express optimism for its continued evolution under Netflix, provided that the show remains true to its mission of blending education with engaging, thoughtful storytelling.

Vinson Cunningham aptly summarizes the episode's essence: “You can depend on [Sesame Street] being available, as a kind of utility... to help kids with cultural education” (45:22).

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Notable Quotes

• Alex Schwartz (15:22): “Sesame Street was designed to harness the addictive properties of television and make them somehow good.”
• Nomi Fry (19:34): “We don’t like it and we have to live with it.”
• Alex Schwartz (20:22): “This is one of the most revolutionary moments in television history.”
• Vinson Cunningham (50:30): “Yes, long may it live.”

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Conclusion

In this insightful episode, Critics at Large provides a comprehensive exploration of Sesame Street's past, present, and potential future. Through thoughtful analysis and personal anecdotes, the hosts underscore the show's profound impact on education and culture, while critically assessing the challenges it faces in a rapidly evolving media landscape. The discussion affirms that, despite its recent struggles, Sesame Street remains a vital institution dedicated to fostering learning, inclusivity, and community values among children worldwide.

Transcript

[Nomi Fry]

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[Vincent Cunningham]

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[Alex Schwartz]

All right, it's that special time, that time that we do on every Critics at Large episode. It's time to announce the letter of the day.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, my God.

[Alex Schwartz]

Are you guys so excited to find out what it is?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm on fucking tenterhooks. Excuse my language, children.

[Alex Schwartz]

It could be anything, but it's the letter O. Hooray. Let's celebrate the letter O.

[Nomi Fry]

As infinite as the cosmos.

[Alex Schwartz]

As the ocean. Ocean.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, right.

[Alex Schwartz]

My God.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, my God. What a great letter. Oh, my God.

[Alex Schwartz]

That's it. Oh, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy.

[Nomi Fry]

This is Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Nomi Fry.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Alex Schwartz]

And. And I'm Alex Schwartz. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Hello, my friends.

[Nomi Fry]

Hello, friend.

[Alex Schwartz]

Hello. Well, I want to get us right down to business because we're here to talk about something near and dear to my heart. We're here to talk about the television show Sesame Street.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wow.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What a show.

[Nomi Fry]

What a show.

[Alex Schwartz]

Sesame Street. Of course, we're referring to the incredibly long running children's television program. It has been on the air for 55 years. Yeah. Longer than Saturday Night Live longer than the Simpsons. It's been around forever and it's been on my mind recently. I have a young child, as you know, so it's been on my mind and on my screen. But it's also something that I think just about anyone who grew up in the United States and possibly farther away, whether kid, adult, has some kind of relationship to people have their favorite characters, people have their favorite segments, people remember certain songs. Is there a Sesame street character that you especially relate to? One who expresses the innermost condition of your heart and soul?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, I think I'm a big bird sun with a Burton moon or something. Is that the right term?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think somebody's gotta be rising.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, rising. There's a rising rising.

[Alex Schwartz]

Maybe I get the whole picture more than I do. If you were to tell me your actual signs.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm open faced and wonder filled like a young child. And yet I seek control at every turn.

[Alex Schwartz]

Ah, beautiful Vincent, do you have a favorite favorite?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's a total tie between Bert and Ernie, both of whom I feel like I'm very much like in the context of intimate friendship and romantic relationships.

[Nomi Fry]

Yin and yang.

[Alex Schwartz]

We're gonna get into all of it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And Yang, how about you?

[Alex Schwartz]

I want to say right now, if we're doing the mashup, I like Abby Kadabi. I got to say she was maybe just because she was a female pioneer on Sesame as being the first female puppet to be featured after years, years of the main cast just being male. So there comes Abby Kadabi. And also I really like. And this is a character I don't think has appeared in some years, but I think inside my Abby exterior is the little lamb Ovahita, who just screams a lot from Joy.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay, there you go.

[Nomi Fry]

Little that I remember her.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. Well, we're here to talk about Sesame for a few reasons, but one of them is that in the last year this show has been going through it. I don't know about you guys, but I've been following the Sesame news avidly. And what I learned was that at the end of 2024 they lost their daughter distributor, HBO. And let's not even get into the confusion over HBO Max. And Max now gonna be HBO Max again. Let's just call it HBO as God intended. Exactly. And we were all in a bit of a doldrums about it because Sesame's future seemed to be unsure then. What do you know?

[Nomi Fry]

What do you know?

[Alex Schwartz]

Just last week it was announced that Netflix will be distributing the show starting later this very year. But at the Same time, President Trump has been issuing executive orders that throw the future of public media itself into question. And it's unclear exactly how these cuts would impact Sesame street itself. It obviously has donors, corporate sponsors, et cetera. But it is a moment, I think, where the value of a program like Sesame street really comes to the fore. So that's today we are talking about Sesame street, its past, its present and. And its future. We're going to look back at what made the show so groundbreaking when it first came on the air over 55 years ago, November 1969, and how the program has morphed as we've entered our very own Internet age. So one thing I'm wondering is, in a time like ours, when screens and content. Can you see my scare quotes?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

So kids are pervasive. What do we see as good children's media? And does Sesame street still make the cut? So that's today on critics at large, the lessons we've learned from Sesame Street. Were you guys Sesame street watchers in your childhood, in your parenthood? When was the last time you really watched the show?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Of course, all the way through my childhood. And then my older daughter is now 19. I started watching it again, you know, almost 20 years ago when she was, you know, started one, two, whatever. But, yeah, it's like I don't even, I almost don't remember watching it even knowing that I did because it struck me as like the water that came out of the faucet. It's like a public utility. Yeah, yeah, just like a thing that was around and there to be tapped into. So I never followed it so much as sometimes availed myself of it. That's how I feel about it.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, yeah, I definitely watched it. And I actually, contrary to you, Vincent, I do remember watching it because, as you guys know, I did not grow up in America all the way through. I came to America intermittently from Israel and, and Israel didn't have Sesame street until a little bit later. There was an Israeli version, chofzum sum, that I can talk about a little bit in a minute, please. But so I do remember actually coming to know Sesame by watching it when I was like four or five on American television. And this is something that I actually know more from my mother than, you know, remember it myself. But her saying that I learned English from Sesame street, essentially. I mean, I also went to preschool, but that it really kick started my ability to speak this other language that I completely didn't know. I feel like it played kind of an imperative role for me and Then later On in the 80s, I would say kind of in the mid-80s, the Israeli version of Sesame street came in and it had dubbed clips of all the characters like the Ernie and Bert, you know, and all of that. The Count. But then it had its own street with its own version of Oscar the Grouch, Moishe Ufnik, his name was. It's pretty funny and like a big porcupine. And it was interesting because it had some. We can talk about this more in the American context. And in today's context, it seems absolutely kind of utopian. But it had a lot of Arabic content as well. Arabic language and culture content, which was extremely important, similarly to some of the things that were happening in American Sesame when. Kind of like cultural diversity and sort of advocating for a kind of, like, broad class, race and ethnicity vision of the world, you know?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. I think it is interesting to think about all the international versions of Sesame, because there are a lot. And they all take place in the environment or a version of Sesame street that makes sense in the cultures where they are. You know. Some of my biggest Sesame memories are not of any of the main characters, but are of some of the interstitial bits that really stuck in my mind over years. So, for instance, does the phrase the Oinker Sisters mean anything to you?

[Vincent Cunningham]

No.

[Nomi Fry]

Is that like an animated. Was it an animated.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's also puppets, but it's a band. Three pig sisters, like the Pointer Sisters, like the Pointer themselves appeared and sang a song that stuck in my mind. And also, I always loved when we got to have a window into just parts of the world we didn't know. I'm not talking about foreign countries, but, like, going to a Crayola crayon factory or something. Oh, yeah. And seeing the wax poured and just seeing other kids look at it. And that stuff really stuck in my mind, the way that Sesame would kind of take you to other places. And then, of course, I started watching it again a year and a half ago with my own, who at that time was very small. And I started to put on some stuff, and it was like slipping back into a bed whose pillows have been plumped just for you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, man.

[Alex Schwartz]

All my friends were there, and I just found it to be utterly delightful. I wanted to hang with these furry dudes and also their human companions. And so we've continued to watch quite a bit. He's not in a Sesame phase right now, but for a while, that. That was, I think, all. He thought that was on tv.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course.

[Alex Schwartz]

Elmo he would ask for Elmo, and Elmo was television.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Johnny Carson.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I was happy to be in that mode for a while, and sadly, now we're out of it. But that's what was going on.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

So what do you guys make of the position of Sesame in the culture? It's a huge question.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Where do you see it?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think it's exactly what you mentioned, which is. Yes. It's its own world of brownstones and benevolent squalor. You know, people living in trash cans because they want to, not because they have to, et cetera.

[Nomi Fry]

It's a choice.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Maybe.

[Nomi Fry]

I like how we're like, what if we're rewriting it as a kind of a libertarian text.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Or just like a sort of rundown social democracy? I don't know.

[Alex Schwartz]

Right. It's very free to be you and me, as was the ethos. So when it came out, which we'll get into.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yes, but what you said, which is that it took you other places. So it's almost like Sesame street was a portal to other places that would sort of. Oh, and now we're gonna take you to some live action. Kids doing this, or like a little sketch. Very much drawing on the TV traditions of the variety show, sometimes echoing and parodying the American musical. It's sort of an agglomeration of American entertainment forms turned toward children. I think the impetus for the show, the Carnegie Corporation was involved in its founding, and it was like the idea was, let's harness the quote, unquote, addictive properties of television and make them somehow good. And I do think that certainly at its inception, that is what it did.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, Take us back. Let's go back to the inception.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. So just to say, Vincent, I think you're totally right that Sesame is a portal to other worlds, but it is also completely a world that is in tune with its own time. At least at its beginnings, its roots were completely in the kind of ideas of the Great Society and the Civil Rights movement.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, there's a great piece by Jill Lepore that was published in the New Yorker in 2020 called How We Got to Sesame Street. I learned. I read that piece in advance of this episode. I learned a lot from it. But what you guys are saying is exactly it. There was a sense, first of all, TV was everywhere, and what wasn't everywhere, actual early childhood education. And so people were finding that kids were just sitting in front of the tv, that they would watch anything, that their brains were just sponging up Whatever those airwaves were sending them. And out of this comes the idea that maybe an educational program could be tried. And it does seem that the great. I don't know how you guys read this, but the great stroke of luck they had was in hooking up with Jim Henson, an American genius. An American genius and a subversive American genius. So you get the brilliance of the puppetry and also a kind of irreverent style. Like, even as children are getting educated, even as the program wants to be teaching kids their ABCs, it wants to be teaching them numbers, it's trying to teach them concepts. You also get a sense that you're part of something that is a little bit adult, I think. And we can get more into that when we discuss the early episodes. But there is, like a fun, but not a saccharine fun that goes with early Sesame. And another thing I found really interesting that goes in line with what you guys are saying about early Sesame was the general radicalness of it. To me, seems, as you're saying Nomi, like, very in keeping with ideas that were in the culture in the 60s.

[Nomi Fry]

Completely. There's a beautiful quote here from the New Yorker's own Renata Adler, who wrote about Sesame in 1972, so three years after its inception, very early on. But it's really. It's such a beautiful passage which I think encapsulates what we're talking about. So she's writing about Sesame, and she says it's as though all the lessons of New Deal federal planning and all the 60s experience of the local people, quote, unquote, the techniques of the totalitarian slogan and the American commercial, the devices of film and the cult of the famous, the research of educators and the talent of artists had combined in one small television experiment to sell, by means of television, the rational, the humane and the linear to little children.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's very beautiful and so true.

[Nomi Fry]

And it kind of. I think one of the things that it clarifies is that this experiment, as Adler calls it, could only have emerged serendipitously in this particular moment.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. And, you know, that moment in American history, late 60s, early 70s, a lot of amazing things are happening, a lot.

[Nomi Fry]

Of very terrible things happening.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Space travel, but then also many, you know. Yeah, Obviously, assassination, political violence, et cetera. It's like it was sort of the coming of age or a coming of age for the American nation in very many ways. And so maybe it made sense that this sort of show focused on pedagogy would come into view and have this dual Sided like it's four children. But it's also an induction into adulthood. Like, there's this trope now, the Pixar movie, the Disney movie before it, that has jokes that are aimed more at adults than at children. Watching the early Sesame, it's like, oh, that starts then this thing of the sort of sophisticated joke that might go over your head, but you know that it's something to aspire to, and it's really an education into a culture. Here's what the patter of standup comedy sounds like. Even if this is for kids and not the real thing. Here's what a parody feels like, even if you don't understand the signified thing that the parody is trying to point to. I remember that kind of childhood being sort of pleasantly confused by things like, this is for me, but it's also teaching me something that I might have to.

[Nomi Fry]

You have a hunch.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Ask about later.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. You have a hunch. Something is going on.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. And when you finally figure out what the sort of referent is, you're like, oh, yeah. You know, that sort of respect, really, for children that's so apparent.

[Alex Schwartz]

I totally agree. And I think that's the thing that has ensured the show's survival for as long as it has survived. Because that's the link, I think, between all kids, the bullshit meter. They can tell. They will tell. I do think that that was something that was really radical about it, and it just ensured that it could keep growing and flourishing. Let's think about some of the great Sesame moments.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, God.

[Alex Schwartz]

I want to bring us right to Big Bird and death.

[Nomi Fry]

What a beautiful moment.

[Alex Schwartz]

You want to set it up?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. Okay. So, Mr. Hooper, this is. We are 1983. Mr. Hooper, who was one of the humans, the human characters on Sesame right from the beginning. He has the store. He's the shopkeeper, Hooper's store. And as often happens when there are actors on the older side who are on a show for many years, the actor dies, and then Mr. Hooper, then the character also dies. And the clip shows Big Bird learning what death is after being told that Mr. Hooper is not gonna come back. Who's gonna take care of the store?

[Alex Schwartz]

And who's gonna make my birds eat milkshakes and tell me stories?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Big Bird, I'm gonna take care of the store, Mr. Hooper.

[Alex Schwartz]

He left it to me.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And I'll make you your milkshakes and. And we'll all tell your stories, and we'll make sure you're okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

Sure.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We'll look after you.

[Nomi Fry]

It's Everything we talked about, that's Goodwood Sesame. The sort of like eye to eye look with children. And while meeting them at their own level and respecting the fact that they don't know what it means for someone to die and that you need to teach them about it and educate them about it. Also not pandering to them and not saying like, oh, he's gone to sleep or he's gone to heaven or he's like, you know, he's on a long trip or ignoring even the fact, but just saying, yeah, this is part of life. He's not gonna come back. But we loved him a lot when he was here. And this is a lesson that one struggles with for their entire life. You know, we don't like it and we have to live with it.

[Alex Schwartz]

I think this clip is so moving. I actually think it's one of like the most radical and revolutionary moments in television history. I'm just gonna put that out there because there's so many things about it. There's the questions that Big Bird has. There's also the emotion that all the adult actors are feeling. They have lost. One of their friends. By the way, was a pretty amazing guy, Will Lee, he was blacklisted and Sesame gave him a job in the 60s and kind of brought him back. So that was quite something. And it also takes its time. I think that's another thing we just don't have enough of in general. That tv, paradoxically, may have a role to play in just feeling some time. They're pausing, they're trying to think through their answers. There isn't this snappy. Every second has to be filled. There's silences, there are gaps. And that, more than anything, I think is okay and good. That time has to be taken. And that time is precious. And in this very short clip, you really feel that. And I just. It's one of the pinnacles of children's TV. And no, Mr. Hooper cannot be dying every single week. And everyone's confronting it all the time, like, that's not the point either. But they just took something that was real.

[Vincent Cunningham]

He can't. That'd be a bad show.

[Alex Schwartz]

That would be a bummer. Sesame street has evolved a ton since it first came on air. And to see just how much we went back and watched the very first episode. That's in a minute on Critics at Large. From the New Yorker.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Foreign.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm Jamilah Robinson, host of Food People. On Food People, we talk about how food and drink shape our society. I talk to the luminaries making Big moves in the culinary industry, from chefs and entrepreneurs to celebrities and even activists. The combination between a school and a.

[Nomi Fry]

Restaurant, the next generation of Ethiopian chefs. A lot more than food goes on in a kitchen. It's where you have your loudest arguments. It's often where you have your loudest laughter.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Italian, Mexican. I'm a comedian.

[Alex Schwartz]

There's gonna be lots of opinions. So if you want to go deep on how food creates the world we live in, join me on Food People. Food People is available on the podcast.

[Nomi Fry]

App of your channel.

[Alex Schwartz]

We've been talking about Sesame Street. We've been talking about the role of Sesame street in our own lives. The history of Sesame street coming in like a meteor into 1969 and just changing the life of America's children ever since. So we wanted to know how this whole thing started. Well, before us, therefore, we went back, we watched a couple of episodes of Sesame Street. We watched the very first episode of the show from November 1969, and an episode that aired just a few weeks ago. So to start, let's go back to that original episode, which is called Gordon Introduces Sally to Sesame Street. Take it away. Someone who wants to tell us what goes down in this episode. No. Me, Fry.

[Nomi Fry]

Well, okay, so the way the episode goes is Gordon, who's a teacher, comes back early from work. He brings with him Sally, a young girl. She's maybe like five or six, I would say. And he walks around and introduces her to Sesame Street.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Hello. This is Sally.

[Nomi Fry]

Hi, Sally. To the people, the actual people who live on the block, and the Muppets who live on the block. Oscar the Grouch, he lives in the trash can. Ernie and Bird are there. Big Bird. Hi, Sally. Sally. And by way of this introduction of Sally to these things, of course, introduces the viewer to these things for the first time. But then there are clips, there's animations. It's the letter W. Kermit the Frog introduces the letter W. With Cookie Monster, the numbers 2 and 3 are introduced. There's an explanation about how milk comes, about how a cow gives milk, and, you know, how it gets to the supermarket. So it's a variety of kind of like, educational and kind of relational clips in a variety of formats that is introduced to the viewer.

[Alex Schwartz]

Vincent, what did you think of the episode?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I thought it was beautiful. It's just so much fun. The level of just, like, respect. It's not holding your hand from one segment to the other. They're sort of not jarring, but just like, okay, we're going to A clip, you know, it's just like. It's moving along at an unhurried pace. I believe the episode's about 55 minutes long and it's just enchanting from the beginning.

[Nomi Fry]

Ugh. It's so amazing.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And you just like you as an adult. You watch it, you're like, okay, I'm kind of into this. It's kind of a televisual representation of what you want your child's pre K teacher to be like, yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

I just want to explain that I raised my eyebrows in shock just now when you said kind of into this, because I was riveted by every frame.

[Nomi Fry]

It's so good as an adult.

[Alex Schwartz]

Not only was I kind of into the first ever episode of Sesame Street, I ate it up like candy. It made me proud to be an American question mark. What the fuck?

[Nomi Fry]

100%.

[Alex Schwartz]

My child was not at home. I'm sitting there watching episode one of Sesame Street.

[Nomi Fry]

I have a question.

[Alex Schwartz]

This is genius.

[Nomi Fry]

Did you cry with the song? You know, the theme song and the. Because I haven't. So I haven't.

[Alex Schwartz]

You haven't heard that?

[Nomi Fry]

I haven't heard it. Yeah. Because I have.

[Alex Schwartz]

Can you tell me how to get.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, I have a 14 year old. It's been a long time since we watched Sesame. But, you know, seeing that old opening and hearing that song, Sunny day, sweet clouds away.

[Alex Schwartz]

So I didn't cry hearing that. But I will tell you something. I'm so glad you did. But just to talk about the first episode, a few things really, really struck me. One was the fundamental respect for children. The not talking down to them, the belief that they could catch something a bit funny or a bit weird, that they'd be cool with it. There's a little segment where they're discussing number three and they're counting things. One, two, three. But funny things start to happen with the number three. Like a fancy waiter lifts one of those silver covers off a dish in front of a child and there are only three P's.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Three P. One, two, three.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's weird, it's odd. It's a bit. Honestly, Monty Python, which is another thing that the show reminded me of. Just stuff flying at you and the combination of animation. Exactly. And animation being a portal not into something cutesy, but into something that isn't gonna be accomplished in real life.

[Nomi Fry]

Surreal.

[Alex Schwartz]

Surreal. Exactly. And the other thing. Yes. It's certainly striking to see the ease with which Gordon just puts his hand on Sally's shoulder and leads her around the neighborhood. And no one thinks this is weird or bizarre and her par not just like tracking her every move with a device that is not gonna happen in our time. It's definitely a before the milk carton situation. But also you really get a feel. And this is something that does make me feel, if not exactly nostalgic. Cause I don't think I ever experienced this then. Well, I guess nostalgic for something I've never known. Oh my God. What's more romantic and poetic than that?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

A relationship with the city itself, where there is a kind of civics that's being performed on screen and it's not in your face and it's not shaking its finger at you and telling you this is how you do it. It's just embodying it. It's where neighbors pass each other in the street and say hello and stop to chat. It's where a woman might be sitting knitting, just because that's what she feels like doing. And she's not doing it at home in front of her television. She's doing it out on the street in the open. Even the opening segment, the Sunny Day theme song, they're showing clips of city kids, New York city kids who are playing and hanging out and running around.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sometimes they're in a field of grass, sometimes they're like in what looks like a schoolyard. There's graffiti around. It's not like a manicured version of a city either. It's just like a real place.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, for sure. And there's just something that is very appealing about that kind of freedom. And I would say that's mainly the word I would label to the first sesame is freedom. There's a kind of freedom in creativity and expression. The weirdness of Jim Henson is coming out. There's a great moment also where Gordon is just like putting faces on puppet characters, turning them into little characters. Which demystifies for kids how these puppets might be made, but also makes it matchable. It's a thing.

[Nomi Fry]

It's their anything people. Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. There's real charm and magic happening and you can see that they had hit on something. Yeah, I loved going back to that. One question I have is because the show really was designed to be this research backed educational programming and it was definitely for urban kids. It was for kids who might just be sitting in front of their TVs and not going outside to the playground. You know, it had a pretty clear point of view about what it wanted to do and how it wanted to help its audience. Does it feel political to you or progressive to you? That first episode.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, it's given its time, the sort of marked non segregation, I think matters. Television had only recently been desegregated. The marked non segregation between humans and puppets. The ontology of being between. These guys are just walking around with their fuzz or whatever. Certainly. But I like the word that you use. I think it's more a civics than a politics in that everything in the show, and maybe this is what we mean by freedom, feels natural. Yeah, it's this sort of gift economy between equals is totally active and everybody seems. I think the word is like comfortable or something.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, totally. It's interesting, Alex, because the quote unquote inclusivity of the show was in some ways the product of a political push. So it's not as if it was completely divorced. The creation of the show was completely divorced from what we might now recognize as a kind of like DEI politics or whatever you want to call it. A kind of like thought out seeking of diversity and representation. And yet, Vincent, I agree with what you're saying. It never feels like spoon fed to you in any way. Like it doesn't. You don't feel pandered to by some sort of like well meaning liberal authority or something.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. Even though, let's be real, well meaning liberal authorities made this thing.

[Nomi Fry]

That's what I'm saying.

[Alex Schwartz]

Thank you. Well meaning liberal authorities, you guys, you can do it without pandering. You know, I think Sesame street felt like it was supposed to be for everyone. And that is actually precisely why people protested when they didn't see themselves reflective. It takes the meaning of representation seriously, which is that not just for the sake of it, but like, we all share a world, let's put him in the world. And that is what makes you want to hang out on Sesame Street.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay, let's speed up, shoot through 55 years. We will come back to some other things that happened in those 55 years. But let's go right to the present because to contrast that first episode, we also watched an episode called Lights, Camera, Cher, which aired earlier this month on Max. Does anyone wanna just quickly synopsize what's going on?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sure.

[Alex Schwartz]

In Light's camera. Share. Vincent, take it away.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Absolutely. In short, and of course, even the setup of this is reflective of vast change from the beginning. Suddenly there is a diminutive red monster named Elmo and he is like the ringleader of everything that's happening.

[Alex Schwartz]

You may have heard of him.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You may have heard of him. He starts. There's like the cold open, standing next to Cookie Monster. And talking about different things that you can share. Elmo is talking about different things. Cookie Monster's, of course, monomaniacally focused on cookies or cookies or cookies. And then Elmo and Cookie Monster do in fact, share some cookies. Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. Hard cut to a situation.

[Nomi Fry]

Smash cut.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Smash cut. Elmo and some of his friends are, like, trying to make a movie, I.

[Nomi Fry]

Guess, and they want.

[Vincent Cunningham]

They need some airplanes for the making of their film. And there's a guy named Rudy, a sort of red, orange, auburn looking creature who's got two airplanes. And would he, Emma asks, like, to share. Now, I have a problem with this episode because, first of all, justice for Rudy. The whole rest of the episode is about getting rudy to share 100% airplanes. He tells them in plain fucking English.

[Alex Schwartz]

Here it is.

[Vincent Cunningham]

He's very polite.

[Nomi Fry]

He's like, no, thank you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm getting mad right now. I'm playing airport. No, thank you. I don't want to share.

[Nomi Fry]

They're like, well, I'm okay on my.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Own, but you've got two airplanes. I'm playing airport. You need at least two airplanes to play fucking airport. He's 100% right. So children need to be taught, yes, sometimes to share, but also to respect the boundaries of a child who is working with his own property and would.

[Nomi Fry]

Like, oh, my God, it's. Once again we're going libertarian mode.

[Alex Schwartz]

Or just, let's be human beings.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Or just liberal democracy. We believe in human property. Sorry. It's about boundaries.

[Nomi Fry]

It's about.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm more of a social Democrat. It's about boundaries. And it's about, like, if someone says, I don't want to share, leave him alone. And maybe later, when he's done playing, he'll let you use the airplane Anyway, Elmo and friends stage a fucking intervention. First in words. Are you sure? Are you sure? Nudging this. Nudging, insistent, barely consensual falsetto dude. Don't you want to? Could you please? And then they're like, oh, it looks like somebody from the other side's like, oh, now they're fucking trolling him. Oh, Rudy looks like he's getting a little bit upset. Oh, Rudy's kind of shaking. How do you feel, Rudy? Would you say it's anger? And Rudy's like, yeah, you don't know anything that's going on in Rudy's life. He could be overrun by siblings, and this is the only time he ever gets to play with these. And now you're trolling him asking him about his physical affect because he doesn't want to share.

[Alex Schwartz]

You do know what's going on if you've been watching Sesame. But that is not to say that your point is not 100% solid, which it is. Oh, my God, you nailed it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Leave.

[Nomi Fry]

So fucking annoying.

[Alex Schwartz]

Leave Fruity alone.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Leave alone. They gotta do song and dance. They gotta. Now they want to. They're showing him the inside of their film. And there's a little funny kind of like parody of the Twilight Zone happening. And the.

[Nomi Fry]

That was the only part I liked that was funny. Yeah. I have to say, because it seemed a little bit like to, you know, harken back to the spirit of DIY or seeming DIY at least, that made the original Sesame so magical. But I want to say also that the technique with which to deal with anger after they arouse the beast of Rudy's anger. Pushing him, pushing him, pushing him, pushing him. They pull out a glitter jar.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

And they say they treat him like an animal.

[Nomi Fry]

And they say when you feel angry, take a deep breath and shake this glitter jar. And the way the glitter swirls in the jar is like your feelings of anger swirling inside you. But then they settle. Don't you feel better, Rudy? And Rudy says, I guess so.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Harassed by a mob. You know what? How about you? If you're feeling upset because somebody won't share with you, how about you do a little thing that everybody needs to learn how to do, which is fuck off. I'm sorry. I was enraged.

[Nomi Fry]

Is mad as hell and he's not gonna take it anymore.

[Alex Schwartz]

Have you tried a belly breath?

[Nomi Fry]

Have you shaken a jar of glue?

[Alex Schwartz]

Do you want me to produce my jar of glue? Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So the lesson was suspect. The production values high.

[Alex Schwartz]

Super high.

[Vincent Cunningham]

High. Production values high. And yeah, angles, camera angles that you never saw. I mean, there's some over the shoulder stuff happening. The slum is.

[Nomi Fry]

No, we don't do slums anymore. But also Brooklyn Heights. But also, I'm trying to parse whether just the classic, you know. And we talked about this when we had our SNL episode. Like, are the best seasons of SNL the seasons you watch when you were in the correct age to watch them. Is it the same with Sesame that I remember, like the 80s as a kind of like beautiful time of the perfect version of Sesame. But were I like whatever, 15 right now, I would be like, oh, yeah, the mid aughts were like amazing. You know what I mean? Like, do I not like it because it's not good or do I not like it. Because it's just like, I'm too old.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, I have a few things to say on this account because I've watched a lot of recent Sesame. First of all, Vincent, you couldn't be more right. That was some nonsense. And I feel sad about it because I don't feel that all recent Sesame is as degraded as this particular concept.

[Nomi Fry]

So this was particularly not great.

[Alex Schwartz]

I do think that something has been going on. The first thing we should say is that Sesame, since it was acquired by HBO Max, has shrunk the length of its episodes from an hour into 30 minutes. And the attendant time pressure that that's put on Sesame, I think has made it much more, like, driven around message. Like, here's the message we're gonna get through. And this is really the note we wanna hit. You can kind of hear them in the writers room being like, all right, all right. This whole episode is, we're gonna just push that. We're gonna push sharing here. We're gonna get these kids to share. Which is, of course, not how. First of all, you do teach someone to share, and it makes it feel less fun in those ways. You know, in some ways, I'm like, I wish we hadn't watched this one. But in other ways, it really nails what's wrong here. Yeah, that was hard.

[Nomi Fry]

I needed to see it. I needed to see where we were.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. I didn't think the way in which it's not just not just pedagogy but is also a form of entertainment for children was still there. Like, at one point, Rudy just, like, breaks out into song as if he's in the middle of a recent musical or, like, there's a lot of, like I said, the sort of parody within the film that was happening. There's a lot of fun stuff that I think that kids. I could see a kid sort of repeating and carrying into their own day and sort of making their friends laugh, which is always. Was the point of TV for me. What's a new way to be funny? Say things, whatever. So I don't want to be totally declinist, especially since I don't have all the relevant context. But, yeah, there were things there. And maybe they just reflect different ways of child rearing. I feel like the kids on the old Sesame street were more kind of like latchkey kids.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, 100%.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You know what I mean? They're just kind of hanging around. And the fact that that is not a feature of the show is a reflection of the reality that no kids are just hanging around. And if you see a kid just hanging around, you are alarmed and try to find out where's their adult and all kinds of things. So that might just be verisimilitude.

[Alex Schwartz]

Sesame street has been a constant in the culture for over 50 years. Today though, there are more options for kids entertainment than there ever have been. So do we still need Sesame? Stick around. Fear is the virus is trending on TikTok. Vaccines are poison. Then your yoga teacher says that sex trafficked children are being sacrificed by satanic liberals.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But it's all okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

The great awakening is coming.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What is happening every week on Conspirituality Podcast?

[Alex Schwartz]

Next we explore the fever dreams that suck friends, family and wellness gurus down.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The right wing cult spiral in a search for salvation.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay, so we've been talking about Sesame street old and new and some of the new turns that it's taken in its HBO era and now that era is ending. We have just been whipping our heads back and forth watching the craziness of what's been happening with Sesame. Or at least I have. So let's just go over some of what's recently gone down. Sesame Workshop, which produces Sesame street, laid off 20% of its staff earlier this year. The federal government has cut public funding for pbs. There was concern because the HBO deal was already running out that Sesame would have nowhere to go. Someone made a LinkedIn post in the voice of Elmo to bemoan being laid off, which caused great concern.

[Nomi Fry]

It wasn't an official.

[Alex Schwartz]

It was not, it was not Elmo himself exactly.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It was an imposter.

[Alex Schwartz]

And then it was announced, woo hoo. Netflix is actually going to be distributing Sesame Street. It's not over yet. Season 56 is coming up. And one thing I will say that I think is very good about that. Part of the deal with the HBO situation was that HBO would get to premiere the episodes nine months before they aired on pbs, which felt very much like rich man, poor man situation. And totally to me against the ethos of what Sesame stands for. And that is gonna be rectified in the Netflix E. They are gonna air them. At the same time there's also gonna be another new format which of course we can't evaluate yet, but apparently it's going to be. It's getting rid. Sesame's gonna get rid of what has been called forever. It's magazine format, that nice variety of different things that you see, especially in the hour long episodes where you get a bit of story and you get the Muppets doing their thing and you get this One and you get a little bit of animation, you get clips, and you get. And now they're going to, I think, be like, telling more of a story as other kids shows do, including more animation. So what do you guys make of all this chaos?

[Vincent Cunningham]

As a noted lover of magazines and things made in the style of magazines, the democratic. What we call the mix, you know.

[Nomi Fry]

Front of book, front of book, back.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Of book, back of book. The. Well, anyway, I.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's a little shop talk for you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, sorry, that makes me feel sad. But I do think that the sort of recapturing of the. Whatever you want to call it, franchise the property, the ip for something that we can broadly construe as the public, something that you can depend on being available, as I said before, as a kind of utility, I think is good. Number one, there ought to be things that exist within a sort of widely available commons. It's good for kids, I think, to have that kind of education, a cultural education. There was certain kind of American Songbook stuff that I only learned because of Looney Tunes. The way that Bugs Bunny sang, he was this kind of. Sometimes it was like, racist. I don't know. It was like. But it was also like he was a repository of styles that would one day ramify forward toward me and would matter to me. I think that's what I hope, at least the show continues to try to.

[Nomi Fry]

Do.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Because there is a way that, again, we are all inheritors of something and we usually need artworks, forms of media, whatever, to sort of convey those things to us.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, what I love about what you're saying, in part, I love many things about it. But one thing is we've been talking about the progressive bones of Sesame street and what it was trying to do in terms of just bringing some of those values to children more widely. And now you're making the conservative case for that tradition, a common culture. And I think that's legit here, certainly.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, I'm definitely feeling like, yeah, I'm feeling my age in the sense of, like, hey, what about all of these wonderful things that we grew up on and how can we keep them going for the next generation? You know, like, what am I, like, some sort of, like, whatever, Republican? Yeah. Like Archie Bunker, like, sitting screaming at the tv, like, look at these. But, you know, when the values that I feel like were at play when I was growing up on Sesame are progressive values, then is that still conservative to say, like, I want these values to still remain? And there is something about, as you said before, Vincent kind of like the. Yeah, the style of joke, the patter of jokes, you know, like the first episode of sesame from 69 that we watch, you know, like Ernie is sitting at the store and drinking a glass of milk. He takes a sip and he says, you know, like, excellent milk. My compliments to the cow. And like that, my compliments to the cow thing. Like, I would love to retain some of that spirit, you know, instead of just saying, hey, can you learn to share? Yeah, I'll learn to share, you know, or whatever, you know what I'm saying? Like a little bit of a flourish, a little bit of like a beyond messaging, let's say personality and character.

[Alex Schwartz]

I do think Sesame at its best still has that and is at risk of losing more of it than we'd like to see, let's put it that way. And I think, I do think it has something to do with the modern era of parenting. Yeah, a lot of things have gotten better in parenting in general than I think they were in 1969. And I think Sesame probably is at the forefront of a lot of that. Like parents have been raised on Sesame now for successive generations. A lot of things having to do with listening to kids, respecting what kids say, respecting kids feelings. All of these things are baked into what Sesame truly is about. And I think it's done a lot of good. I do think there's a trend in parenting right now that has a lot to do with scripts. What do you do if your kid does X when your kid is having big feelings? What do you say? There's a lot of Instagram content around this, like Dr. Becky and stuff. Yeah, there are a lot of. Exactly. Who's a child psychologist who is very, very big on Instagram. There's a lot of stuff around that and I think some of that has crept into Sesame. I think that's what was going on with the Rudy episode, for instance, in part. Here's what to say, Wen. And I think it can be a useful resource, definitely. But it also can be really depersonalizing. And that side of it came through in this Sesame episode for me. It's feeling very adult directed in terms of messaging and what we wanna get across. And again, some of that great. Like they're talking about inclusion this season and they're talking about this and that holiday and. But to me it all feels pretty phoned in at the moment. So Ted Sarandos, if you can hear me, give the kids power. Give them back the power, the imagination, the weirdness.

[Vincent Cunningham]

One thing that I do think is so interesting and Also, why adults should maybe not just in the course of being parents themselves, but generally know what's going on with children's programming is that it does. The way that a children's program proceeds does give us a hint into the kind of like subjects or just people that society is producing. Like what it takes to function in a society. So maybe it was a uniquely mid century thing that like, you know, progressive meant a kind of not economic libertarianism, but like a libertarianism of the spirit. Just like you do you, I do me, and we can get along and maybe, you know, hey, here's what you say so that like nobody gets mad and everybody feels better. And you know, maybe this is like the HR department era of it's totally that Vincent, don't get, you know, you say this and then here's how you get out of this situation. You never compliment someone on their clothes. And also it's like, yes, these are things that make us feel strange. But maybe that's just because it is a verisimilitude that reminds us that actually childhood is not the same as it was when we were kids. So I don't know, maybe that's just me.

[Alex Schwartz]

So with all this in mind, guys, do you still think Sesame street is a value? What's the consensus here?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yes, long may it live.

[Nomi Fry]

Yes, long may it live.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And the moment, I think my sweet little girl is ready for it. She's gonna be a watcher until, you know, until it runs its course. That's how I did it with my older daughter. That's how I'll do it again.

[Alex Schwartz]

And you can go into the past, you can watch the past episodes too.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I was gonna say my goddaughter, shout out to Xinzi, I love you. Her parents on purpose gave her, via HBO Max, the first season, like the early episodes as opposed to the current ones. And it's. I mean, this is one of the values of streaming. It's like you can go back and back and back.

[Alex Schwartz]

I do feel that once they're aesthetically programmed for the bright colors and the fast pace, it's hard to go farther back. So that's smart to do that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You gotta start back.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, start in the 60s and the 70s. Know me, tell me.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I don't want to live in a world that doesn't have sesame, even if it's just from that conservative impulse. What, you know, we've been calling the conservative impulse of legacy and tradition. And what I learned, I would like my children to learn and their children. And so on, you know. Well, it's concerning with adjustments, obviously, for contemporary developments. But yes, I think so.

[Alex Schwartz]

No, conservative. Little C is. It can be cool guys. Little C. They like civilization. The letter of the day is a little C. I mean, we're talking about. I'm talking about the fact that we believe conservation. Well, we believe certain values are important and endure continuity.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, another C word.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, exactly. Community, Inclusion.

[Nomi Fry]

Communism.

[Alex Schwartz]

Community, Communism.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Civics.

[Alex Schwartz]

Long may they live.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Long may they live.

[Alex Schwartz]

This has been Critics at Large. Our senior producers are Michelle o' Brien and Rhiannon Corby, and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Conde Nast's head of Global audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrato composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from Jake Loomis with mixing by Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] Critics we all have bad.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Days and sometimes bad weeks and maybe even bad years. But the good news is we don't.

[Alex Schwartz]

Have to figure out life all alone.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm comedian Chris Duffy, host of ted's how to Be a Better Human podcast.

[Alex Schwartz]

And our show is about the little.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Ways that you can improve your life.

[Alex Schwartz]

Actual practical tips that you can put.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Into place that will make your day to day better.

[Alex Schwartz]

Whether it is setting boundaries at work.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Or rethinking how you clean your house, each episode has conversations with experts who.

[Alex Schwartz]

Share tips on how to navigate life's ups and downs. Find how to be a better Human.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wherever you're listening to this.