Our Romance with Jane Austen

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker Episode: Our Romance with Jane Austen
Release Date: June 12, 2025

Critics at Large dives deep into the timeless allure of Jane Austen, exploring why her novels continue to captivate audiences centuries after their publication. Hosts Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Fry, and Alexandra Schwartz engage in a lively discussion, dissecting Austen's narrative techniques, enduring themes, and the cultural resonance of her work in both historical and modern contexts. This episode commemorates the 250th anniversary of Austen's birth, celebrating her legacy through thoughtful analysis and engaging conversation.

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Introduction: Celebrating Jane Austen's Legacy

The episode opens with a brief acknowledgment of Jane Austen's 250th birth anniversary, setting the stage for an in-depth exploration of her literary contributions.

Vincent Cunningham introduces the session by highlighting Austen's dual prowess in crafting enduring romances and incisive social commentary. (00:01 - 03:46)

Favorite Jane Austen Novels: Listener Poll Results

The hosts discuss the results of a recent Instagram poll where listeners voted on their favorite Austen novels. Pride and Prejudice emerged as the favorite for 34% of respondents, while Northanger Abbey trailed with only 4%.

Alex Schwartz and Nomi Fry humorously discuss their ranking of Northanger Abbey, admitting it as Alex's least favorite Austen novel, though promising to read it in the future. (05:04 - 05:50)

Exploring Austen's Timeless Tropes

The conversation delves into the quintessential tropes found in Austen's novels, such as:

• Will They, Won't They: The classic romantic tension culminating in a satisfying resolution.

• Money and Social Status: The intersection of love and economic necessity, a recurrent theme in Austen's work.

• Miscommunication and Social Constraints: How misunderstandings and societal expectations drive the plot and character development.

Nomi Fry encapsulates the essence of Pride and Prejudice by likening Austen's portrayal of love to "heterosexual love until finally, in the last five pages, it speaks its name" (02:02 - 02:19).

In-Depth Analysis: Emma

Emma stands out among Austen's repertoire for its complex narrative structure and character development.

Alex Schwartz praises Emma for its intricate portrayal of the protagonist's misinterpretations and the novel's embedded mystery, particularly through characters like Frank Churchill and Jane Fairfax. She draws parallels between Emma's "main character syndrome" and contemporary notions of personal narrative and self-centeredness. (06:13 - 10:33)

Nomi Fry highlights Emma Woodhouse as an outlier in Austen's oeuvre—unique in her wealth, lack of dire circumstances, and social position. This uniqueness allows for a rich exploration of societal attitudes and the confining nature of Emma's provincial life. (09:19 - 10:33)

Spotlight on Persuasion and Mansfield Park

The hosts transition to discussing Persuasion, Austen's final novel, lauded for its depth and portrayal of loneliness.

Nomi Fry references Virginia Woolf's 1924 review, emphasizing Anne Elliot's solitude and internal struggles. She contrasts Persuasion with other Austen novels by noting the absence of a confidant for the protagonist, making Anne's journey particularly poignant. (10:33 - 17:42)

Vincent Cunningham shares his appreciation for Mansfield Park, describing it as Austen's least plot-heavy and least romantically conventional work. He emphasizes the novel's narrative strategy and moral depth, particularly through the character of Fanny Price and her interactions with Henry and Mary Crawford. (17:42 - 23:05)

Jane Austen's Enduring Popularity and Modern Adaptations

The discussion shifts to why Jane Austen remains relevant today, despite the centuries separating her from contemporary audiences.

Alex Schwartz attributes Austen's lasting appeal to the seamless blend of realism and fantasy in her novels, as well as her incisive social commentary. She explores how Austen's personal experiences and societal observations infuse her work with authenticity and timelessness. (29:46 - 30:49)

Nomi Fry adds that Austen's position as an "outsider" looking into the societal norms of her time allows modern readers to find both escapism and relatable parallels in issues like wealth inequality and gender roles. (32:32 - 34:50)

Listener Engagement: Letters and Emails

The hosts read and respond to listener submissions, notably a heartfelt letter from Lauren praising Persuasion for its portrayal of enduring love amidst societal constraints.

Lauren's Letter: She identifies with Anne Elliot's struggle for love and autonomy, drawing parallels between Austen's themes and modern societal issues affecting women. (42:25 - 43:29)

Nomi Fry and Alex Schwartz reflect on Lauren's message, agreeing that Austen's narratives offer both a template for romantic ideals and a critique of societal limitations. (43:29 - 45:34)

Austen in Contemporary Media: Movie Adaptations

The conversation highlights modern adaptations of Austen's work, particularly the 20th anniversary of Joe Wright's Pride and Prejudice starring Keira Knightley.

Alex Schwartz describes the film as "very romantic, capital R," appreciating how visual media captures the emotional undercurrents of Austen's narratives despite inherent limitations in portraying internal monologues. (40:19 - 42:15)

Nomi Fry mentions a viral YouTube supercut that showcases the yearning moments between Darcy and Elizabeth, underscoring the visual appeal and enduring popularity of Austen adaptations. (41:03 - 42:15)

Conclusion: The Everlasting Charm of Jane Austen

In wrapping up, the hosts synthesize their discussions, emphasizing that Austen's genius lies in her ability to portray universal human experiences—love, misunderstanding, societal pressure—through engaging characters and witty narratives. They posit that Austen's work acts as both a mirror and a window, reflecting the complexities of her own time while offering insights applicable to today's societal dynamics.

Vincent Cunningham encapsulates the episode by pondering the boundless appeal of Austen's world, noting its adaptability across different eras and cultures. (36:52 - 40:13)

Nomi Fry and Alex Schwartz agree that Austen's narratives provide a comforting yet critical space for readers to explore personal and societal challenges, maintaining relevance through their depth and relatability. (40:13 - 47:55)

The episode concludes with acknowledgments of production team members and promotes upcoming content related to Vogue's The Run Through podcast series.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Nomi Fry: "Which in this case is just like heterosexual love. Heterosexual love. Until finally, in the last five pages, it speaks its name." (02:02 - 02:19)

• Alex Schwartz: "Emma is writing a novel about her own life, and she sees the people in her life as characters. She has what we call in this year, 2025, main character syndrome." (09:08 - 09:20)

• Nomi Fry: "This book is really about loneliness." (14:54 - 15:00)

• Alex Schwartz: "Persuasion is not frivolous, but provides this thing that people want to see in their own lives." (25:23 - 26:06)

• Lauren's Email: "My half agony, half hope is that us ands never stop asking for what we deserve or settle for less. Jane says it best time will explain." (43:25 - 44:14)

• Nomi Fry: "It's snatching victory from the jaws of defeat." (45:32 - 45:34)

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Final Thoughts

Our Romance with Jane Austen serves as both an homage and a critical examination of Austen's literary mastery. By intertwining historical context with modern-day reflections, the hosts demonstrate that Austen's insights into human nature and societal structures remain profoundly relevant. This episode not only celebrates Austen's timeless narratives but also invites listeners to find personal connections within her stories, reaffirming her place in the canon of enduring literary greats.

Transcript

[Nomi Fry]

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[Alex Schwartz]

Welcome to critics at large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Alex Schwartz.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm Nomi Fry.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Vincent Cunningham. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. How you guys doing?

[Alex Schwartz]

Doing great.

[Nomi Fry]

Doing well.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Now, if you're anything like me, when you think of a certain kind period romance, you know what I'm talking about. Hands brushing, repressed feelings, a prolonged marriage plot, an empire waste. The name that comes to mind is Jane Austen. Now, across the six novels that she wrote in her lifetime, Austen's work gives us, yes, romances for the ages, but also, more importantly, I think, humor and biting social commentary. What are some of our favorite tropes from an Austen novel? Can we locate some of those?

[Alex Schwartz]

Mmm. Will they, won't they?

[Nomi Fry]

The love that dare not speak its name.

[Alex Schwartz]

Which. Which in this case is.

[Nomi Fry]

Which in this case is just like heterosexual love. Heterosexual love. Until finally, in, like, the last five pages, it speaks its name. Mm. Amazing, right?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, totally.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Money. Money is huge. The need for money, the having of money, what you do with money, how you get your money. Can money and love meet at that perfect place on the curve that will satisfy the emotional needs and ambitions of the heroine with her material needs?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. Also another thing. And, Alex, I know we've discussed this off mic, as they say, smart woman surrounded by idiots.

[Alex Schwartz]

Absolutely. That's Evergreen in Austin, an insufferable, pompous clergyman. Mr. Collins, Mr. Elton, we see you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And I'd say, alongside the money, an attention to the properties of an estate. You gotta really know like the estate, the home and hearth are the backdrop against which all of these things play out.

[Nomi Fry]

Absolutely. And let us not forget miscommunication.

[Vincent Cunningham]

If you could say something and get a true answer back and then make a decision based on fairly one information, we wouldn't be dealing with first of all, the novel, and certainly not a novel by Jane Austen.

[Alex Schwartz]

Correct?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's true.

[Nomi Fry]

Absolutely.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So you, our listener, might be wondering why Jane Austen, why now? Well, to that I say it's her birthday.

[Alex Schwartz]

Woo.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Come on. Or at least her half birthday. In December we.

[Nomi Fry]

What if she celebrated half birthday? Sorry, sorry.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Like I did in camp. June 20th. In December we will be celebrating 250 years of Jane Austen, the 250th anniversary of her birth in 1775. And so today we're gonna look back at her work and the many, many adaptations thereof. We're gonna discuss it all, the romance, the humor, and why after all this time, the works of Jane Austen still resonate. And so that's today on Critics at Large, our romance with Jane Austen. Okay, let's start as one must, with Austen's novels. There are six of them. Pride and Prejudice, Mansfield Park, Sense and Sensibility, Northanger Abbey, Persuasion and Emma last week. Thank you listeners. Thank you. As always, we put out a poll on Instagram asking you all about your favorite Jane Austen novel. Dum dum dum. 34% of you, a plurality said Pride and Prejudice was numero uno.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I'm not surprised.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That reflects my sense of things all the way. At the bottom was Northanger Abbey, 4%. Are we surprised?

[Alex Schwartz]

We're not. And I'm just gonna tell you why I'm not. And I need to be honest with my fellow critics. Yes, this is the one Austin novel I haven't read.

[Nomi Fry]

The one that got away.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, it hasn't got away for long because boy am I gonna get on it now. You're gonna tear in, but I cannot tell a lie.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So we've heard our listeners opinions. Does anybody wanna jump in and go to bat for a favorite Austen novel? Friends.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay, I'm ready to go to bat, but I just wanna say something about the bat that I'm batting with and the balls that are coming at it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Uh huh.

[Alex Schwartz]

Do I have a favorite? Sort of. Does it change? It does, because these novels are very precious. There are only six. I mean there are scraps of more. There's Sanditon, which she was working on when she died. There is Lady Susan, which was this her earliest mature work, which is Written in letters. And these things are not really considered with the six. The six.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The apocryphal Gospels.

[Alex Schwartz]

Exactly. Exactly. Well, not even apocryphal.

[Vincent Cunningham]

They're out there, but they're just not. They don't count.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay. So favorite. Even though. Yeah. People love to have favorites. It makes me a little bit nervous. And because it makes me nervous, I'm cheating.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

And here's what I'm doing. Okay. I brought two. I brought two.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay. So the first thing I wanna say is I don't wanna exist in a world in which Pride and Prejudice wasn't written.

[Nomi Fry]

Absolutely.

[Alex Schwartz]

I don't wanna be part of it. I don't wanna be around. I just, you know, wake me up when Pride and Prejudice is written and published.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wow.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. This novel, I think the edition I have the back of it says something like, no novel in English has given more pleasure than Pride and Prejudice. That is so true that when I went into labor, I brought Pride and Prejudice.

[Nomi Fry]

Not labor.

[Alex Schwartz]

Labor, however, Pride and Prejudice. While it is a wonderful, sparkling gem of a novel, I brought it in merely to say that right now, at this point in time, my favorite is Emma. And the most recent reading I did of Emma was this past spring. It is, I think, one of these novels that is actually so complex that it can really change every time you read it and show you different aspects of itself. In part because it's based on a total misunderstanding. It's based on Emma, the main character, Emma Woodhouse's chronic, inveterate misunderstanding of the world she lives in, the people around her, her own self, her own emotions and the emotions of others. Everything is misread. And right in the middle of this, there is an actual mystery story. This guy, Frank Churchill, shows up. He is the natural son of a family friend of Emma's, but he was raised by rich relations elsewhere. He's been talked of in the village in the town of Highbury for years. He comes to Highbury. He's charming, he's handsome, he flirts with Emma. Emma to feel tempted by him, sort of. She's rich on her own, so she doesn't need to marry. This is unique among Jane Austen heroines. And the mystery is, what the hell is going on with Frank Churchill and Emma? But also, what is his deal? There's someone called Jane Fairfax, a poor relation of another friend of the family's who's lounging about. She showed up at the same time as Frank. What could the deal be? So the first time you read this novel, you don't know every subsequent reading, of course, you have the information. And I think that this is one of these novels that gets so rich when you read it, knowing what's going to happen, because you see how Austen is creating the mystery, but you also see how Emma is misreading. The experience of reading Emma is really. Of reading a bad novelist. Emma is writing a novel about her own life, and she sees the people in her life as characters. She has what we call in this year, 2025, main character syndrome. And, like, it's not unfair. Her name is on the book. She is the main character. But this is a book about the flaws of having main character syndrome, where you feel that everyone else is existing in your.

[Nomi Fry]

It's a bit of an outlier in Austen's oeuvre. Right. Like, the heroine herself is totally an outlier. She isn't. She kind of uniquely different from all other Austin heroines.

[Alex Schwartz]

You get it right in the first line.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Which is Emma Woodhouse, handsome, clever and rich, with a comfortable home and happy disposition, seemed to unite some of the best blessings of existence and had lived nearly 21 years in the world with very little to distress or vex her. Those things are not true. It's like the opposite of any other Austin heroine. And handsome, clever. Yes, those things are true. Rich, no. And it is the rich that is totally different. I think, basically, Jane Austen set herself this project. She famously said of Emma, I'm going to write a heroine who no one but myself will much like, because those things are unsympathetic. You don't like people like that. She's. She just, like, has it going on. She's running around her town. She's the queen of her little world. But I do think that one thing that goes on in Emma is you see how small that world is, and it increasingly. This is one of the novels where Austen ventriloquizes the attitudes of society the best, I think. And you feel how confining it might be. Yeah, you're. Oh, great. You're the princess of Highbury. Well, like, that's not a very big or cool place to be the princess of, you know, Emma. It comes out at one point in this novel that Emma's never seen the sea. She lives in England, it's an island, but she's never seen the sea.

[Nomi Fry]

Right.

[Alex Schwartz]

She's not going far.

[Nomi Fry]

She's provincial.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, she's provincial, exactly.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. I mean, the world of Austen in general, that is one of the distinguishing characteristics of an Austen novel, is that the world of her characters is Often very small. Right. It's provincial, it's kind of drawn with a fine brush. They don't go that far usually. You know, they might go to Bath, they might go to Lime, they might go, you know, it's like there's not a lot going on. There might be a ball or two, there might be an outing, you know, there might be like a game of cards, like there might be a concert. But. But other than that, it's mostly either people like staying in their own homes and having their own domestic dramas or there's a visitor, you know, there's like they go to visit in the village, somebody from the village comes to visit. You know, it's like the dramas are very, very, very localized. Which might lead me to another pretty localized book, which is my favorite, which is Austen's Persuasion. So this is Austin's final novel, published in 1817. And it is about Anne Elliot, who is, gasp, 27 and unmarried. She is the daughter of a vain, stupid baronet, Sir Walter Elliot. And it's a kind of a Cinderella story. She has two sisters, one older, one younger, Elizabeth and Mary. Both of them are total duds, self centered narcissists. And Anne Elliot is kind of shuttled between Mary's house, the younger married sister and also a family friend, Mrs. Russell, who is described as a very wise, a fine lady who made a mistake eight years before. Eight years earlier, when Anne was in the full bloom of youth, she fell in love with Mr. Wentworth, a sailor who was below her class, wise, didn't have a fortune. They fell deeply in love with each other. And Lady Russell said, you cannot marry this man. You have to reject him. He is not worthy of you in station, in fortune. And she persuaded her persuasion to let go of this love affair and say, okay, I reject you now. Anne, the bloom of youth gone, nearly an old crone is she. Suddenly Captain Wentworth returns to Anne's life and then begins this sort of like, will they or won't they situation, which is so familiar to us from Austen's general work. Okay, I love this book. There is a review that Virginia Woolf in 1924 wrote of a kind of edition of all of Austen's novels that came out then. And she speaks of persuasion and I just want to quote her so she's saying of Austen. Her attitude to life itself is altered. Austen's with this book, she is seeing it for the greater part of the book through the eyes of a woman who unhappy herself has a special sympathy for the happiness and unhappiness happiness of others, which until the very end, she is forced to comment upon in silence. And so I think the thing that Woolf says about silence, this is a book about loneliness. Because I think in almost every other Austen book there is, you know, whether it's like, Lizzie and Jane and Pride and Prejudice or like there is, like, a bosom friend usually, or some sort of, like, outlet for the heroine to. Even if carefully. Even if, you know. Of course, it's not like things are very repressed and circumscribed in all the books, I think. But I think there is usually some person who you can kind of confess your feelings to. And in this book, Anne Elliot is totally alone in her consciousness. She is completely alone. She has only her own counsel to take. And so the idea of kind of suffering in silence is really heartbreaking in.

[Vincent Cunningham]

This book, is that approach to sort of individual consciousness. The reason that you like this book so much, do you think?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, I mean, I think it really moved me the first time I read it. I just reread it. I finished it again last night because I hadn't read it since I was.

[Alex Schwartz]

In my 20s, so.

[Nomi Fry]

And I really enjoyed it. And I was like. I just remember feeling so moved by the fact that she is so alone and has to be so watchful on her own. And finally, this, like, tension of silence over the course of this book is finally broken when Captain Wentworth delivers a secret letter to Ann Elliot.

[Alex Schwartz]

Secret letter.

[Nomi Fry]

I know. And it's so romantic. And it's like, finally, finally this.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The release of this built up. The tension isn't totally erotic. This long buildup, it's almost like intellectual.

[Alex Schwartz]

That these thoughts have been emotional, Vincent. And I think we're gonna come back to that. That is it for all of them. That's it. I think that the intellectual being erotic is the huge appeal of these books over time.

[Nomi Fry]

Yes, that's a good point.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That there can be a surplus of not just feeling, but of thought.

[Alex Schwartz]

And that this and that, the act of thinking, is sexy and thinking together, but also thinking very seriously about life and about oneself and expanding your knowledge. That is beautiful and that is attractive to someone else, but also to oneself. It makes one worthy of attraction.

[Nomi Fry]

And then many listeners brought up this letter scene as the reason they love Persuasion. And I'm gonna read a little bit from Captain Wentworth's letter. I can listen no longer in silence. I must speak to you by such means as are within my reach. You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope. Tell me not that I am too late, that such precious feelings are gone forever. I offer myself to you again with a heart even more your own than when you almost broke it eight years and a half ago. Dare not say that man forgets sooner than woman that his love has an earlier death. I have loved none but you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wow.

[Nomi Fry]

Literal chills, my friends.

[Alex Schwartz]

My God.

[Nomi Fry]

I know, I know.

[Alex Schwartz]

The man has been a C for so long, he's been fighting in the Napoleonic wars. Has he forgotten?

[Vincent Cunningham]

No, no, no.

[Nomi Fry]

I couldn't make him forget. And just Anne's response, such a letter was not to be soon recovered from. Agree.

[Alex Schwartz]

All right, Vincent.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay. My favorite Austen book is, I think, kind of an outlier because it is, to my mind, the least plot heavy. And it is also, to my mind, the least romantic by a far cry. It is Mansfield Park, Austen's third novel. And to me, if the novel is, on some level, the art of narration, to me it is where it is the pinnacle of Austen's art, that the narrative strategy of this book is just, to me, incredible. And to that end, I'm gonna try to, like, speed through the plot because to me, the plot is almost not the point. A young woman at the outset of the novel, 10 years old, her name is Fanny Price, is sent to live on an estate called Mansfield park, which is owned by her uncle by marriage, Thomas Bertram. He's the baronet of this locale. And her uncle and aunt have two daughters who are sort of perfect products of their society. They're beautiful, handsome, charming in their way, but also sort of totally horrible to her, as is basically everybody in this book, except for the son of this family, Edmund, who is kind of the friend of her heart. And soon, when the cleric, Mr. Norris, the reverend Norris, dies, another group of people move into the house where he once lived with Mrs. Norris. And these are the Crawfords, Henry and Mary. And their deal is that they are kind of more worldly.

[Nomi Fry]

And they're siblings.

[Vincent Cunningham]

They're siblings. Mary is very good looking and Henry is really funny. Is like. He's not that handsome. Everybody's always like, first time you meet him, you're not that impressed. But he has what's called comportment. He has countenance. So basically he knows how to work it. That means he has Riz. Yeah, he just like, kind of.

[Nomi Fry]

He's rizzed up.

[Vincent Cunningham]

He's rizzed up. Every time you meet him, he just like, seems cooler and people. And he's known as sort of a playboy. And in the fullness of time, he, as a sort of game, tries to attract the scrupulously Moral Fanny who says no, says no, says no.

[Nomi Fry]

And it's very dangerous liaisons quoted in that sense.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And, you know, not to spoil it. The apex of the novel, really the moral and narrative crux of the novel, is her total rejection of him. Can I read a passage from Mansfield park to just talk about this narrative issue?

[Alex Schwartz]

I insist that you do.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Thomas Bertram has gone to attend to his state in Antigua, and a whole paragraph is dedicated to, like, why nobody misses him and whether this is a correct feeling to have. So his daughters, the Miss Bertrams, were much to be pitied on the occasion, not for their sorrow, but for their want of it. They don't miss their father. Their father was no object of love to them. He had never seemed the friend of their pleasures, and his absence was unhappily most welcome. Unhappily most welcome. So there is the real thing that they should feel and the thing that they sort of, in the context of their moral world, do feel. And these things are at odds, but only in the life of the narrator. The narrator's like, they should feel this way. They're much to be pitied, but they don't feel this way. And the manners, the theatricality of the society is like, kind of foremost like how one should act and how much like the marriage plot. Everything else that we've talked about is really just a working through of one level of morality and a deeper level of morality.

[Nomi Fry]

This is so interesting, Vincent, and I think you're totally right to position it as this kind of almost philosophical novel. You know, it's a novel of ideas, in a sense. But there's also something very pragmatic about Austen in this. In this novel and in others as well, when we think about the example of not loving one's own father. Right. So she positions, as you say, all of these levels of like, one should and one doesn't. One yearns to. One mourns the inability to, you know, all of that. But she is presenting people, daughters or relatives, who don't like this father figure, and that's okay. Like, she presents him as an asshole. The same thing happens in Persuasion.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Right? Right.

[Nomi Fry]

Anne doesn't love her father. Her father certainly doesn't love her. She will act properly and she will respect him because that is kind of the structure of things and what one should do morally, I guess. But it's also presented as totally okay that she doesn't love him because he's an asshole, you know, so there's a kind of pragmatism in Austin that is another level of that. Right. It's like, yeah, there are all of these levels, moral levels. Should, should, should, should, should. But there's also just life in which some people suck. And it's okay, in fact, advisable, probably, not to mistake them for something else. And even if it's like your own father, your own mother, whatever it is, it's okay not to love them.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Nomi Fry]

Which is kind of radical.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

You know?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. Jane Austen's works are enduring classics, but she herself is a bit of a mystery. What do we know, or think we know about the woman behind the novels? Critics at large will be right back. Foreign.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm David Remnick, host of the.

[Nomi Fry]

New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Alex Schwartz]

There's nothing like finding a story you.

[Nomi Fry]

Can really sink into that lets you.

[Alex Schwartz]

Tune out the noise and focus on what matters in print or here on the podcast. The New Yorker brings you thoughtfulness and depth and even humor that you can't find anywhere else.

[Nomi Fry]

So please join me every week for.

[Alex Schwartz]

The New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay. So listening to you guys talk about some of these novels that I love so much, it, to me, justifies why even though we're here, like, picking favorites, it's impossible. And I don't just mean because we love them all equally. Like, no, we don't have to. We're human. That's fine. But people love these books, and I think they love them for a few different reasons. Because they're so witty, because they're so funny. They are hilarious. Like, if you haven't read Pride and Prejudice, read it and tell me you don't laugh at the first scene when Mrs. Bennet is running around like mama hen, just, like, clucking about Netherfield park being Let it last, you know, it's just. And they're very human. And then, of course, the love aspect. And I just want to say something in defense of the love aspect.

[Nomi Fry]

Absolutely. No defense is needed.

[Alex Schwartz]

No defense is needed. But I do think sometimes when people, like, raise their eye at the idea of Jane Austen and all these women getting married, I think what's going on is love is the answer to loneliness in these books in a very profound way. The proper love is an answer to loneliness. You know, for instance, Fanny Price, her kind of soul's friend, is the young boy, later man, who she ends up realizing she has real love for because of communication. Like, because of.

[Vincent Cunningham]

They can talk.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, they can talk. But I mean, like, communication on even a deeper level of seeing who you are through someone else and having the same effect on that person and, like, growing together. And I think even with Emma, which in some ways is the most cynical of the novels, because Emma marries exactly the guy you'd expect her to marry. She's the richest lady around. She marries the richest guy around. And like, oh, by the way, her sister's already married to his brother. But what makes you believe that this is good and beautiful, even as I do think there is very much an arch eyebrow in this novel about that match, is that there is, again, a communication between the two of them that is not possible with others. And part of the sadness of the book to me is how rigidly classed that is, that the communication is possible because only one man can really speak freely to Emma because of the class position and can really observe her faults. But that's hot, guys. And so I think, like, the hotness of the mind is what makes Jane Austen so enduring over time and not only not frivolous, but provides this thing that people want to see in their own lives. That is my theory.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Interesting. See, that, to me brings into question something, I think, to me quite large, which I think, to your point, about the whole cloth of this corpus, these six books. The big question for me is, like, the nature and the depth of the satire, whether we're supposed to like it or find it hot at all. Our colleague Emily Nussbaum introduced a concept that I think is so useful, and I think about it all time. When I'm looking at something that seems to be ironic in some sense, is the idea of the bad fan. That is like, you watch Breaking Bad and you end up cheering on Walter White.

[Nomi Fry]

You wanna cook meth.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And you're like, let's cook. Exactly, exactly, let's cook. Let's cook. And, like, you know, you start to hate all the characters, like his wife Skylar, who wants him to not cook, perhaps, you know, all this kind of thing. And how much we root for the romances that we find as they play out under these really, like, when you think about it objectively, kind of excruciating constraints, as we say, of class, situation, et cetera, how much we are supposed to submit to the. The sort of the rhythm of suspense and will they or won't they? And how much we're supposed to enjoy that and have that eyebrow up is, to me, a question. Cause I don't totally. I will say I am not a rereader of Austin. I have, like, an admiring part of my mind about it and like the art of the books, every time I go back to Them especially the smoothness and the quick facility of the narration and how easily she can go into different minds. I'm just like, wow, this is a master of a craft. And I wonder if the reason that I don't have that feeling is because I'm caught between those two layers of those two modes of apprehending what's going on in them.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay, I love this. I'm so into this, because I think you're putting your finger on this huge thing, which is that it's the answer of, like, how much is satire, how much is sincere. It changes from book to book. And I think it's also very unstable. And so much about these books does depend on. On the readers. Because, like, Nomi, you were talking about Virginia Woolf. Yeah. Another beloved author of mine, and maybe ours before. And she said this thing about Jane Austen where she says, like, when you're basically looking for her to point the way in these books and say, like, here's what I actually believe. You know, oink. Fitzwilliam Darcy is, like, actually our guy. She says she flatters and cajoles you with the promise of intimacy. And then at the last moment, there is the same blankness. Are those Jane Austen's eyes or is it a glass, a mirror, a silver spoon held up in the sun? And basically, I think it's really variable. And, you know, I think the thing is, like, what people sometimes forget is that Jane Austen was and wasn't herself a member of these worlds that she's writing about. Like, Jane Austen is not rich. Jane Austen is a clergyman's daughter. He has all these kids. He has not enough money to provide for them. One of her own brothers was sent off. Much like Fanny Price is sent off to be raised by rich relations. Or like Frank Churchill and Emma is raised by rich relations and adopted, in fact.

[Nomi Fry]

Right. And changed his name.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

Basically, yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Like Frank Churchill. But also maintained, like Frank Churchill, a connection to the family so that Jane and her sister can go and, like, peer in at a different way of living, but they're not living that way. So I think that people often think that, like, oh, Jane Austen was just, you know, wealthy and sitting down, this, like, lady authoress, like, not just people in her own time, like, you know, people in the later 19th century criticizing her for the smallness of the world that she depicted. But to that, I say, first of all, as a woman, your world is not on the seas in that time. You're not off with the Navy gallivanting around. You are very circumscribed by class, she's even more circumscribed. So you get Jane Austen, the person herself who doesn't have the wealth, the freedom, who also never marries. Like, she's looking at all this from a really different position. And I think irony is so key, but also sincerity. Like, basically, I think that these books are about total realism and total fantasy meeting in a way that is endlessly alluring.

[Nomi Fry]

Absolutely. And I think also this makes me think, Alex, the fact that Jane Austen was essentially on the outside looking in, and that meeting of kind of like, how can I shoehorn? Or how can I bring closer the realism of someone like myself? I'm speaking as Jane Austen right now. And the fantasy of, like, wouldn't it be amazing if we all could live in a place like Pemberley? I think it's something that is, for us, as contemporary readers, evergreen in terms of its attractiveness. And our colleague Luke Menon, like, has a piece on Jane Austen that he wrote some years ago, I believe, in 2020, in the magazine. And in it, he makes this really interesting point about the wealth distribution in Austin and how it's not totally different than the wealth distribution that we currently encounter in the United States of America. I mean, of course, this is a democracy. There is more upward mobility. But things are increasingly seem to be going in the direction of intense, intense inequality that Austin's time was signaled for. And so I think reading Austin's from the outside, looking in, kind of weaving reality in a fantasy in the romantic and the economic realm is attractive to us because it's not totally unfamiliar and increasingly less so.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I think you're right.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You know, given all this, though, like, sort of those, like, true realities of the time and what we find in the books, why is it. I was just at a conference about a very different woman writer, Flannery o' Connor, but I noticed a similar. There are sometimes this happens where a writer occasions a sort of cult of personality, a cult of the self, and the biography becomes threaded into the way people enjoy the works. What is it about Austen that makes people fixate not only on her books, but on her do we think?

[Alex Schwartz]

I almost think it's having so little information about her. Exactly. Like, both in the books themselves, as in that Woolf. That Woolf idea that I just read, that she's kind of this eye you look through and you're not totally sure where to position yourself. But, like, what do we know about Jane Austen? In my head, when I think of Jane Austen, I mean, like, if you Google her You'll see this sort of, like, meager little pen drawing where she has this kind of, like, pursed little lips and she has some ringlets coming down from her white bonnet. And like, that's kind of it. Because a few things, you know. One, she never published anything under her own name in her life. They were all called books by lady. And in each subsequent book that she published, the others would be mentioned. So people knew they were the same writer, and they knew the writer was a woman, but that's all they knew. And then after she died, her sister Cassandra, who was older than she was by almost three years, and who was her, like, best. Best best friend, who also never married, burned almost all of her letters. And the ones that are left are kind of by general consensus, not that revealing, not that interesting. And, like, you know. But I actually think not knowing very much about her has been a huge boon in some ways for the Austin industry, because you can just kind of endlessly wonder, like. I recently watched this show called Ms. Austin, May I introduce Cassandra Austin Austin.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Are you perhaps some relation to Ms. Jane Austen?

[Alex Schwartz]

She was my sister. Everything one needs to know about Jane.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Austen is found within the pages of her novels.

[Alex Schwartz]

You know, that is most certainly not true. There's sure to be letters that will.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Cast up all manner of treasure.

[Alex Schwartz]

My dearest Eliza, I enjoyed it very much. I think if you. If you critic out there are into the Austen sphere, the Austen verse. This is a fun addition. It is four episodes. I believe it's Masterpiece. The thing that used to be called Masterpiece Theater, so you can watch it on PBS. And the Ms. Austen in the title is actually Cassandra Austin, Jane's older sister. The action of the story takes place like the present of the story is when Cassandra is herself an older woman and is trying to recover some of the letters from family friends from Jane. And she reads the letters and is taken back in time. So we get a young Jane Austen who's played by this actress who I've come to really like recently. Patsy Ferran. Well, I saw her with Paul Mezcal. She played Blanche to Paul Mezcal's Stanley in A Streetcar. And she looks like they did the right thing here. She looks in the show, she looks little and awkward. She looks like someone you'd call, like, squirt. You know, like, she's tiny. She's tiny.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Small fry.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, she's a small fry. She's, like, running around half fine. You can exactly. Like, you cannot imagine her getting married at any point. She is there only to be an authoress as they would have called her at the time. But I think it's like a lot of the fixation with her in the world of the Janites, like the Austen fans. Yeah. Like, maybe you visit, you make a pilgrimage to the house, and you. But nothing comes through there particularly. So all you can do in the end is cozy up to the words again and again. And this just this, like, peerless sensibility. And so you have to go back to the books to know her. We don't have the eight volumes of letters. We don't have the diaries. Yeah, we don't.

[Vincent Cunningham]

When we're back. Why are we still so into Jane Austen? That's in a minute on Critics at Large from the New Yorker.

[Alex Schwartz]

Hi, I'm Susan Glaser.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm Jane Mayer.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I'm Evan Osnos. And we host the Washington Roundtable from the New Yorker's Political Scene podcast. For me, this is the water cooler. This is a wonderful chance to sit down with two of the smartest colleagues in the country and, you know, just kind of compare notes.

[Nomi Fry]

Now, that's so true, because, first of all, we are actually friends in real life. But I can't wait till Fridays to hear what you guys think. Everybody sees the headlines, but you guys fill in the gaps.

[Alex Schwartz]

I also think, though, occasionally we get somebody to come on, and I'm always smarter for it. If you get a great historian who can tell you about a presidential election 50, 60 years ago, often it can help you understand about what's happening today. So if you're looking for weekly insights.

[Nomi Fry]

Into what's going on inside the Beltway.

[Alex Schwartz]

Please join us every Friday on the Washington Roundtable, part of the New Yorker's Political Scene podcast.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay, so we've been talking about the novels, the non letters, as cinders, as the. Oh, no, the cremated letters, and what little we know about the woman herself. But, like, the question I still have, after all, this is, why? Why have these novels endured for hundreds of years? Why the movies, the books, the cosplayers, you know, Jane Khan or whatever. The world of Jane Austen is boundless. What's up with it?

[Nomi Fry]

I think there is just something that is incredibly evergreen in a narrative that, along most of its length, seems to go all wrong until in the 11th hour, it goes so right. And I think that is why, you know, this is not the only way to look at it, but I think it's, in a lot of ways, the template for the modern romantic comedy. You know, I mean, what could it be more alike? And, you know, the adaptations Both the modernized ones and the kind of like, true to the time period ones, their wealth, and we keep going back again and again to the. Well, to the Austin. Well, proves that. I think it's just one of the most perfect examples of this genre and earliest examples of this genre.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And this is why I think it was so like, apropos what you said about the similarities between Austen's time and our time, economically and otherwise.

[Nomi Fry]

Totally.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Because even though they are so much the products of a specific time and place, they do seem very adaptable to different times and places and in this way. So there's a moment in Mansfield park where, you know, it's revealed that Fanny likes to read Shakespeare to her aunt and Austin is like Shakespeare in that way that they can be kind of modernized, that you can do modern dress Austin in the same way that you can do modern dress Shakespeare. Like, some of the character portraits are very specific, but also portable to different situations. Portable and therefore adaptable.

[Nomi Fry]

You know, portability. Yeah. So what are some of the adaptations that we love most when we think about Austen?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I don't think this is a conventional Austen adaptation, but I am here to speak for the Keira Knightley Pride and Prejudice.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, I love that one.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay. I'm here to speak for it. It's its 20th anniversary. It's a Joe Wright directed movie. Keira Knightley is Lizzie Bennet and Matthew McFady.

[Nomi Fry]

And the top, otherwise known as Tom.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. From succession, is Darcy. And what I mean by it not being, like, totally conventional is that to me, it's very, like, romantic, capital R. Like, there's a ton of pathetic fallacy. The skies crack open as Lizzie tells Darcy that she despises him the first time he proposes. Sir, I. I appreciate the struggle you have been through, and I am very.

[Nomi Fry]

Sorry to have caused you pain.

[Alex Schwartz]

Believe me, it was unconsciously done. Is this your reply? Yes, sir.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Are you. Are you laughing at me?

[Alex Schwartz]

No.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Are you rejecting me?

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm sure that the feelings witches you've told me have hindered your regard will help you in overcoming it. They're also. I just like. There's so many fun, wonderful aspects of this movie, but it's hot. It's hot.

[Nomi Fry]

I want to say something. Is that on YouTube? This is pretty funny. There is a 10 minute super cut from this very movie with Matthew McFadden and Keira Knightley the star. Pride and Prejudice, this adaptation that is Darcy yearning.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

It has like 3 million views or whatever. So it's basically like Him. Yeah, just a supercut of every moment where, like, Lizzie comes into the room and wordlessly he's like.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I love it.

[Nomi Fry]

And we love it.

[Alex Schwartz]

Like, the thing that, like, sometimes what's frustrating about the Austen adaptations is they can't show the thinking that goes on with the characters in the book. But also what's satisfying about them is, like, they can show the yearning. We know the yearning must have been there. Right, let's see it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

With that, maybe we can turn to some of the emails. We put out a request for some input into this episode and boy, did we get it.

[Alex Schwartz]

There's one from Alauren and Lauren says, dear critics. Oh, no, I'm so sorry. Dearest critics. That is my preferred way to be addressed. Yes, I've decided that Many women in 2025 are Anne Elliot for my favorite Jane Austen novel, persuasion. Famously 27 and unmarried, Anne refuses to sacrifice her freedom without soul piercing, half agony, half hope, kind of love. Not money, not what her family wants, what she wants. Endless articles bombard us about how women are marrying less, having fewer children and waiting until they're older to marry. As the crisis of masculinity shapes the dating scene but the birth rate, the world hollers. Women aren't doing the things we want them to do. I don't even need to say it, do I? Dear critics, that with a lack of rights, no guaranteed maternity leave or affordable childcare, rising costs, we all know what's going on. This country and culture simply aren't meeting our very sensible standards. Don't get me wrong, Frederick Wentworths are out there. I was fortunate enough to marry one last fall.

[Nomi Fry]

Mazel.

[Alex Schwartz]

Mazel. Beautiful penmanship included. Oh, my God.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wow.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm shocked by that. But only because he showed me time and time again his solidarity and friendship were up to my modern and Jane austified standards. My half agony, half hope is that us ands never stop asking for what we deserve or settle for less. Jane says it best time will explain. Guys, I love this letter because first of all, it just goes against exactly what I was saying. I'm like, ah, stuff has changed so much. We have a nostalgia for the way things were that we hope certain qualities will be enduring. And here comes Lauren to say, like, of course, we are all living in or living in a situation that feels incredibly imperiled and difficult and hard to find a true partner for life in Lauren. I'm very happy for you. Yeah, I'd love to watch the movie.

[Nomi Fry]

I think this is another kind of data point I Think. I think this is very correct to say that part of the reason that we continue to read these novels, maybe especially as women, is. Yeah. Not necessarily even. I guess not nostalgia, really, but it parallels our situation. Right. Whether it's the enormous wealth gap that the Jane Austen's world was experiencing and that our world is now is in the throes of whether it's women. Circumscribed in different ways, of course, but circumscribed situation and lack of resources, lack of assistance. And so we want to escape to a world where there is that chance of, like, I don't want to say one in a million, but, you know, a kind of unique chance at. Within these circumstances, we can still find love.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. This is. It is a very narrow. And I don't mean narrow necessarily in a bad way, form of escapism that says within unfreedom there is freedom, or something like that.

[Nomi Fry]

Absolutely. It's like victory from the jaws of defeat.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's the thing.

[Nomi Fry]

Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. It's like, ugh. It's like the door is closing. The door is closing. We're all gonna, you know, either die or be alone or be destitute. And the last moment, something happens to shift that wish fulfillment.

[Alex Schwartz]

I think that's so true, but I also don't think that we could ever create a social system in which you can manufacture love. Oh, my God. Is that true? I think so. I don't think. I think you can change Vincent. You think so?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I mean, the.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, what do you mean by manufacturing?

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, everything was different if these constraints weren't there, if true equality was achieved. It's not just like, the satire is huge and it's important, and it's also a means of resistance. But it's not just about that. I think I'm revealing myself to be romantic.

[Nomi Fry]

You are. But I think there is a world in which I'm gonna say something horrible where men suck less. Just like, kind of structurally speaking, of course. Individually, I know many amazing men, present company included. I just mean that, you know, we know there is a crisis in masculinity partly because of these structural forces that we are attempting to withstand.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. I think the ideal society, sure, you wouldn't manufacture necessarily our modern notion of romantic love, but love in all of its form would be easier to recognize in the ideal society because that society would be premised, in fact, on love. Like, love would be the thing that says, no, you can't be that much more poor than I am. Love would be the thing that says, you know, your class of person, woman, whatever, whatever, whatever. Can't be that much sort of divergent in fate from myself. And therefore, like, if the society reflected those bonds of affection, we'd be able to, like, see it in the other more easily.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's beautiful. It's a great idea. Would that society look more like a Jane Austen love story or less like it?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It would be the opposite of one.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. It would be the union.

[Alex Schwartz]

It would be the end for all.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It would be. There you go.

[Alex Schwartz]

Vincent Cunningham is running on a platform of love for all, equal love for all.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I've been doing it all my life.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I'm into it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's today on Critics at Large.

[Nomi Fry]

Free love in all its form.

[Vincent Cunningham]

This, as always, has been Critics at Large. This week's episode was produced by Danielle Hewitt with help from Michelle o' Brien. Our senior producer is Rhiannon Corby and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Conde Nath's head of global audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrado composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Yost with mixing by Mike Kutchman, who just had a baby. Congratulations, Mike Kutschman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] critics.

[Nomi Fry]

Hi, I'm Chloe Mel, editor of Vogue.com and I'm Cho Manardi, head of editorial content at British Vogue. Our show the Run through takes you behind the scenes at Vogue.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes.

[Nomi Fry]

With two episodes every week. You'll find out what's really happening inside the world of fashion and culture. Every Tuesday, hear from Nicole Phelps, global director of Vogue Runway and Vogue business, as she discusses the latest fashion news and speaks to designers and industry leaders that Vogue editors can't stop talking about.

[Alex Schwartz]

There's so much shakeups happening in fashion. I'm curious what you think of this moment. Ooh, I am here with Marc Jacobs. Longevity is something we talk about a lot. It's not easy to achieve. How does it feel, this moment?

[Nomi Fry]

I have so much to say on this subject. And on Thursday, you'll hear from the two of us, Chloe Marl and Cho Minardi, as we share our thoughts on fashion through the lens of culture. From the Oscars to the Met gala, plus conversations with the biggest stars right now.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Tyler, congrats.

[Nomi Fry]

Congratulations on your first Vogue cover. Thank you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, my God.

[Nomi Fry]

Join us to get your bi weekly fashion and culture news. Listen to the Run through with Vogue every Tuesday and Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts from PRX.