The Diva Is Dead, Long Live the Diva

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker
Episode: The Diva Is Dead, Long Live the Diva
Release Date: June 26, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Critics at Large, hosts Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Frye, and guest critic Michael Shulman delve into the multifaceted concept of the "diva" within contemporary culture. Centered around Michael's in-depth profile of Broadway legend Patti LuPone, the discussion navigates the evolution of the diva archetype from its operatic roots to its current manifestations in various entertainment sectors.

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Michael Shulman's Profile of Patti LuPone

Michael Shulman begins by recounting a memorable experience from his profile of Patti LuPone. At [05:30], he describes attending a New York Rangers game with LuPone, where she passionately yelled at players to "take it off, boys. I want to see naked hockey. No, full frontal," highlighting her unabashed and larger-than-life persona.

Vinson Cunningham praises the depth of Michael's writing, noting at [07:17], "If you want to know what it's like to hang out with Michael, just let this piece speak to you." Michael further shares an anecdote about LuPone's specific fondness for sherry ([08:28]), showcasing her intricate character traits and personal quirks that enrich his profile.

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Defining the Diva: Origins and Characteristics

The conversation shifts to the origins of the term "diva," tracing it back to the opera. Vincent Cunningham explains at [21:10], "The original idea... someone who represents the extremities of human capacity," exemplified by legendary figures like Maria Callas. The hosts discuss how the term has historically denoted exceptional talent combined with a commanding presence.

Michael adds at [24:41], "The diva is someone who is a vessel not only for artistic joy but just for fun, who is kind of speeding through the world at a breakneck pace," emphasizing the blend of talent and temperament that defines a diva.

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Patti LuPone: A Modern Diva

Delving deeper into Patti LuPone's persona, Michael outlines her illustrious career and her reputation for being "tempestuous and demanding" ([09:57]). They explore her candid nature and how her outspoken behavior has both fueled her legend and sparked controversy, particularly regarding her interactions with fellow performers like Keisha Lewis and Audra McDonald ([10:35]).

The discussion highlights Patti's recent apology, noted at [38:06], where she states, "For as long as I have worked in the theater, I've spoken my mind and never apologized. That is changing today." This marks a significant moment, suggesting a potential shift in the traditional diva archetype towards accountability and self-reflection.

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The Diva Archetype in Modern Culture

The hosts and Michael examine how the concept of the diva has transformed in today's cultural landscape. They compare historical divas like Maria Callas and Elizabeth Taylor with contemporary figures such as Beyoncé, Taylor Swift, and Nicki Minaj.

At [44:17], Vincent observes, "Taylor Swift has built her career and personality around... a total idea of her art, which seems to be very much under control." This contrasts with earlier divas who were often portrayed as more chaotic and unpredictable.

Michael adds at [45:36], "With Nicki Minaj, she is constantly in feuds and being messy, like taking her beef to social media... So I don't know. I do think there's a line that people can cross, but it's constantly shifting." This underscores the evolving nature of what society deems acceptable or characteristic of a diva.

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Gender Dynamics and the Label "Diva"

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the gendered implications of the term "diva." Michael articulates at [34:34], "When you call someone a diva, maybe it's like a female CEO... you're labeling behavior that if a man did it would be celebrated."

This critique highlights the misogynistic undertones often associated with the label, suggesting that powerful women are unfairly branded as difficult or demanding compared to their male counterparts.

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Fan Engagement and Cultural Impact

The discussion also touches on the relationship between divas and their fan bases, particularly the strong support from the LGBTQ+ community. Michael references a 2015 The Atlantic piece, stating, "The queer infatuation with broken women isn't so much schadenfreude as it is a complicated mixture of identification and disidentification" ([35:20]).

Vinson adds at [48:32], "There is a key characteristic, Michael, which is like, not only fandom and worship, but often it has been accompanied with the idea of this is a woman who is feted specifically by gay male fans," emphasizing the unique bond between divas and their admirers.

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The Future of the Diva Archetype

In contemplating the relevance of divas today, the hosts ponder whether the traditional diva still holds sway or if the archetype is evolving. Michael suggests at [43:19], "I don't think we'll ever stop being drawn to larger than life characters living messy, larger than life personal lives," yet notes that modern divas often exhibit more disciplined public personas.

Vinson concludes at [48:32], "What we love about it is the transcendence... It has to be a constant relationship of nourishment from artist to audience," indicating that the essence of the diva—exceptional talent and the ability to connect deeply with audiences—remains intact, even as the outward behaviors associated with divas change.

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Conclusion

Critics at Large provides a comprehensive exploration of the "diva" archetype, anchored by Michael Shulman's insightful profile of Patti LuPone. The episode navigates the delicate balance between exceptional talent and demanding behavior, the gendered implications of the term, and the evolving expectations of modern divas. As the conversation unfolds, it becomes evident that while the portrayal of divas may shift with cultural changes, the fundamental allure of these larger-than-life figures continues to captivate and inspire audiences.

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Notable Quotes:

• Michael Shulman [05:30]: "Finally, I get the appeal of team sports that has eluded me my entire life. You just have to show up with a Broadway diva and have her scream things at the players."

• Patti LuPone [38:06]: "For as long as I have worked in the theater, I've spoken my mind and never apologized. That is changing today."

• Vinson Cunningham [48:32]: "What we love about it is the transcendence... It has to be a constant relationship of nourishment from artist to audience."

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This episode offers a nuanced examination of the diva phenomenon, making it an essential listen for those interested in the intersection of talent, personality, and cultural impact within the arts.

Transcript

[Nomi Frye]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Okay, guys, we are going to play one of our favorite games today.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, man.

[Nomi Frye]

The game is Diva or Na Diva.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We play it all the time.

[Nomi Frye]

We play it all the time. My friends Vincent and Michael, are we ready?

[Michael Shulman]

I'm so ready.

[Nomi Frye]

Okay. Susan Sontag.

[Michael Shulman]

Ooh, Diva.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Diva.

[Nomi Frye]

Okay. Norman Mailer.

[Michael Shulman]

Um.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It'S not. It's too dark, right? It's too dark.

[Nomi Frye]

Right?

[Michael Shulman]

Okay. Yeah, she's just an asshole.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, right. Okay. Not a diva, but merely an asshole. Okay, how about Eustace Tilly? The New Yorker's very own Eustace Tilly.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think Tilly is more of a dandy, a bit of a dandy than a diva.

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah, he's too self contained. I haven't seen any drama from him. He keeps it tight.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You know, there's no gossip about Eustace.

[Nomi Frye]

Elon Musk.

[Michael Shulman]

Again, asshole more than diva.

[Nomi Frye]

Interesting. Interesting.

[Vincent Cunningham]

He doesn't seem part of what it means to be a diva is that you at least are having fun. And I don't think that Elon Musk is having fun.

[Nomi Frye]

Interesting. Except perhaps when he is deep in a K hole, reportedly, as he has been reportedly, Whitney Houston.

[Michael Shulman]

Diva.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Diva.

[Nomi Frye]

Diva. How about a hungry toddler? Good enough for you, Vincent?

[Vincent Cunningham]

A hungry toddler is a diva because it has the transcendent talent of cuteness that keeps you coming back despite their actions.

[Nomi Frye]

Okay, very good.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What do you think, Michael?

[Michael Shulman]

Is this toddler serving? You know, is this toddler, mother? I don't know this toddler.

[Vincent Cunningham]

This toddler is Mother.

[Nomi Frye]

This toddler.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Are you mother, Would you let this Todd, etc. This is critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Nomi Frye]

And I'm Nomi Frye. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. And this week, we are missing our wonderful co host, Alex Schwartz. She is on vacation. What an absolute diva. However, we are joined by our very first guest critic. Drumroll, please. It's Michael Shulman. Welcome to Critics at Large. Michael.

[Michael Shulman]

Hi, guys.

[Nomi Frye]

Hi. How are you doing?

[Michael Shulman]

I'm good. I am hot.

[Nomi Frye]

It's sweltering on the east coast, my friend.

[Michael Shulman]

It is sweltering.

[Nomi Frye]

So, Michael Shulman, our Wonderful colleague. He is a critic, he is a reporter. He is known for his absolutely fascinating, funny, scintillating profiles of show business figures. You might remember his wonderful profile of Succession's Jeremy Strong only a couple years ago. He has also written two books. He's written Her Again about Meryl Streep. His second book was Oscar A History of the Oscars that came out in 2023. He has most recently been in the news, let's say, for his profile of Broadway diva or non diva, Patti LuPone. And I can think of no one more perfect to talk to us today about the topic which you, my guess, we are going to discuss, which is divas. Divas. Why divas? How divas now?

[Michael Shulman]

So thrilled to be here. So ready to talk divas with you guys.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, my God, Michael.

[Vincent Cunningham]

By the way, listeners, if you've not heard our episode about the politics of the Oscar race from a couple of months back, Michael was our guest on that show.

[Nomi Frye]

Exactly. So we're gonna be talking obviously more at length about your most recent profile of Patti LuPone. But maybe just a teaser for our listeners. Something that didn't make it into the piece but stayed seared in your memory. Maybe a favorite detail about spending time with Patti that might kind of clarify to us her character.

[Michael Shulman]

Oh, gosh. I mean, I put absolutely all the best stuff in the piece. Sort of the moment, to me that is sort of frozen in time in my mind. Cause it's when I knew, oh, my gosh, this profile is. Is cooking. Is when she brought me to the Rangers game. She called me up, she said, what are you doing tomorrow? I got us tickets for the New York Rangers versus the Toronto Maple Leafs. Pocket drop is at 7:00. So we're sitting in Madison Square Garden in these amazing VIP seats, and she starts screaming at the players, take it off, boys. I want to see naked hockey. No, full frontal.

[Nomi Frye]

Full frontal was my full frontal.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Full frontal. My.

[Michael Shulman]

Remember, sitting there next to Patti LuPone, thinking, Finally, I get the appeal of team sports that has eluded me my entire life. You just have to show up with a Broadway diva and have her scream things at the players.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, my God, we can all learn from that. There's so much to learn. But, you know, I mean, one of the things this anecdote brings to the fore is how blunt Patti LuPone is, right? And how, like, her bravado kind of is just like absolutely stunning. And in this profile, Michael, she is very honest. Like, she really. The term no filter might have been invented for this woman and some of the comments she made to you in the profile sparked pretty intense backlash. Right? And so we're here today to talk about Patti LuPone, but also the figure of the kind of divisive, blunt, outspoken diva more broadly. And we're gonna trace the term from the opera to the Internet and trying to figure out where divas fit, if they do it all, into the current cultural landscape. And so, as we embark on this very timely exploration, the question I have for all of us is, what are we looking for in our divas today? So that's today on Critics at Large, the diva at a crossroads. Okay, so let's start with Patti LuPone, the woman, the legend. Vincent. I mean, obviously, we all read the profile when it came out. What was your favorite detail in a piece that is replete? Absolutely teeming.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Teeming with detail, with juicy detail. First of all, reading this piece is not unlike talking to Michael Shulman, which, in that no sentence, no phrase is wasted. Everything has its right place. It's just a cannonball, a machine gun of details, funny things. So, I mean, it just like, if you want to know what it's like to hang out with Michael, just let this piece speak to you. Right?

[Michael Shulman]

Oh, thanks, Vincent. That's so nice.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I mean, we already talked about my actual favorite detail, which is the hockey stuff. As a sports fan, I just. There's nothing more glamorous than going to a big sporting event and making a scene. But my next favorite thing was something that I want to talk about more later, but it's Patti LuPone's love for Sherry throughout the profile. This is one of the big thematic aspects of the profile. She's looking for Sheri. It's her favorite sort of refreshment, and she can't find it anywhere in New York. It's one of these classic things of, like, the diva being a person out of time. She's asking for sherry at the restaurant. She's asking for sherry at Madison's Aquaria Garden. She can't get it until Michael Shulman himself shows up to her house in the last scene of the piece bearing, as he says, a bottle of sherry.

[Michael Shulman]

For her, which was expense to the New Yorker, by the way.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Did the New Yorker pay for Patti LuPone Sherry?

[Michael Shulman]

It sure did.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's so good.

[Nomi Frye]

Wow.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Michael, before we even get into the meat of this great profile, I'd love if you could just set up a bit about who Patti LuPone is and how she fulfills some of these diva qualifications that we're gonna get into.

[Michael Shulman]

Well, Patti Is one of the greatest living Broadway musical performers. She's famous for her belt, her big belt that, you know, reaches the rafters and blows the roof off. And she's famous for playing these sort of iron women characters in Broadway history, Like Ava Perron in Evita, which made her overnight famous in 1979. And she won her first Tony Award for the part.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But all you have to do is look at me to know that every word is true.

[Michael Shulman]

All the way through Mama Rose in Gypsy, which the sort of mother of all stage mothers for which she won her second Tony in 2008.

[Nomi Frye]

Will someone tell me when is it my turn? Don't I get a dream for myself? Starting now it's gonna be my turn Gangway. Will get off on my Runway Starting now I bet a thousand this time, boys.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm taking a thousand.

[Michael Shulman]

She has an incredible voice, but also just this life force on stage that makes her extremely compelling to watch, as well as a sort of reputation for being tempestuous and demanding and picking fights with people and being just incredibly blunt. And no holds barred in her opinions on everything from the traffic in Times Square to, you know, Madonna playing the role of Evita in the movie. She called Madonna a movie killer. You know, that's the kind of stuff that she will say in public.

[Nomi Frye]

It's interesting how she kind of holds on to this image of struggle, even though, you know, she's obviously has had great success. And this leads us to the controversy that has emerged from your article, Michael, where towards the end, in a kind of kicker, you quote Lupone saying a couple of pretty controversial things.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Does Michael maybe want to.

[Nomi Frye]

Michael, do you want to tell us.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Set the scene for us.

[Nomi Frye]

Do you want to tell us what happened with the Hell's Kitchen controversy?

[Michael Shulman]

Right. So, okay, so last fall, Hattie and Mia Farrow were doing this two woman play, the Roommate, at one theater. That theater shared its backstage wall with another theater, which is where Hell's Kitchen, the Alicia Keys musical, was playing and is still playing. And the problem was that some of the sound from Hell's Kitchen would bleed into the Roommate theater, which the actors could hear. And Patty said the audience could hear it as well. So she tried to get the house management to do something about it. It wasn't getting fixed. So at her stage manager's suggestion, she went to the head of the Shubert Organization, which owns the theaters, and he did something about it. The problem was solved. At Hell's Kitchen. Patti sent a bouquet and a thank you note to the crew at Hell's Kitchen. And it seemed to be all resolved. But then Keisha Lewis, an actress who's in Hell's Kitchen and won a Tony for her role, took to Instagram and made a video addressed directly to Patty from one veteran to another, saying that this had been racially microaggressive and bullying because she had labeled a black show loud. Now, at the time, Patty didn't respond at all, which was probably a wise choice. But then I asked her about it when we were at her apartment and she kind of went off on Keisha Lewis. So.

[Vincent Cunningham]

As all that was happening and you know she's going on, you've given her her sherry. She's now in full grievance mode. Cause I mean, this is like Good Morning America huge at this point. Did you know as you were being told these things? Wow, I cannot believe we're here now.

[Michael Shulman]

I think the thing that made me feel, oh, this is going to be big, like a story, is when she brought Audra McDonald into it. Because Audra, obviously a multi, multi Tony Award winning Broadway star, she's one more Tonys than any other performer. So she had given some emojis supporting Keisha Lewis video at the time. Some clappy emojis and some hearts, I believe, Believe. When I asked Patty about this, she said, yeah. And I thought she should know better. That's typical of Audra. She's not a friend.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Did she do her D just like that?

[Michael Shulman]

Asked her about if she had seen Audra as Rose in Gypsy, currently a role that of course Patti played and wanted Tony for herself.

[Nomi Frye]

She.

[Michael Shulman]

I swear this really happened. Hattie stared at me a cold stare for 15 seconds, and then turned her head toward her window, looked at Central park and said, on a beautiful day, oh my God, this absolute shade. And that is the moment where I thought, okay, yeah, this is amazing. Yeah, this is something, I mean, for people, certainly people who follow Broadway and know these two kind of living legend, the idea that they are somehow on the outs. And Patti did allude to a kind of long standing falling out that they've had. They used to perform all the time together in like the 2000s. They went a bunch of shows, concerts. So the idea that there's been a rift between them was instantly, to my ears, kind of a scoop. You know what's interesting is that she had spent the entire time that we were together kind of shit talking left and right. I mean, she. She called Kevin Klein, her boyfriend in their Juilliard days, a lothario. She called Glenn Close a bitch. And to me, it was Just, it was an unusual target, almost. Because one thing about Audra McDonald is that throughout her career of three decades on Broadway, she has held herself as a sort of unimpeachable person.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Like class is the word often used. She's so classy, which is like an opposite from the diva thing. Right.

[Nomi Frye]

Taking the high road.

[Michael Shulman]

Always. Always.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What did you make of the reaction? We saw Gayle king asking Audra McDonald about this very publicly in the media, and it ended, of course, with Patti LuPone issuing an apology.

[Nomi Frye]

Well, there was also an open letter, right?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, there was an open. There was so. I mean, so much storm and drang.

[Nomi Frye]

To disinvite lupone from the Tonys, signed by hundreds of Broadway professionals, Right?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. So what did you make of all that?

[Michael Shulman]

I mean, for me, it was like a rollercoaster of a week. But in a way, I'd been there before. Like, you know, Jeremy Strong. That first week or two, it came out, and I knew that, you know, the Patty Audra stuff would make news sort of in the Broadway realm. But what I didn't see happening was that it would become such a cause, you know, and obviously a lot of black theater fans and people in the Broadway community were quite offended by it and how Patti had talked about these two specifically black veteran performers by diminishing them, diminishing their achievements. I think there was also a kind of backlash to that. Backlash in certain quarters. People who went back and said, well, you know, she had every right to complain about the noise. And, you know, people were. Had all sorts of reactions.

[Nomi Frye]

I think one thing I'm really curious about, too, and that we can talk about a little bit more in a bit, is how much of these divas, so called, comes from their talent and how much from their bad behavior or sort of outspokenness. What do you think, Michael?

[Michael Shulman]

In a way, they go hand in hand, like there are, you know, they have to be talented. You can't be a talentless diva. You know, you have to have some kind of otherworldly gift that you bring. Usually it's singing. And Patti certainly has this. She has these, as she puts it, lungs of steel that have not quit. You know, she's 76, and she can still blow the roof off the joint when she belts. I think the bad behavior, or at least a kind of personal messiness is, I think, part of the diva Persona. Patty's version of it is a kind of rage that I think very much informs a lot of her performances. I mean, if you saw her rose in Gypsy, you know, this is A woman who is just coming at you like a bullet train and she's not gonna stop. But I also think there's an element of vulnerability to the diva. You know, often we see people who are unlucky in love the way, you know, Judy Garland was or Liza Minnelli or people who sort of had tragic ends, like, you know, Whitney Houston. I don't think Patti has come to a tragic end. She's, you know, in a way, she sort of had this incredible third act in her career. Ever since Gypsy, she's been like, you know, on Girls and just like that and, you know, an Ari Aster movie. And she's got this kind of later in life cool factor.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

But certainly her feuds and her ranting and outspokenness has been part of her legend, part of what people love about her. I mean, if you saw her in the recent Company revival, that image of her sort of sitting with a vodka stinger and kind of making catty remarks about everyone she sees in the form of Sondheim's song the Ladies who Lunch. That part arose from Elaine Stritch's actual personality, and Patti is very much the inheritor of that.

[Nomi Frye]

In a minute, we attempt a definitive taxonomy of diva hood. This is critics at large from the New Yorker. Don't go away.

[Michael Shulman]

I am Shilpa Oskokovic. And I'm Jessie Szczefczyk. And we're the hosts of the Ba Bake Club podcast. It's Bon Appetit's Boat Club, but it's for baking.

[Nomi Frye]

We would like to invite you to.

[Michael Shulman]

A live show on July 23rd, third at the Bell House in Brooklyn.

[Nomi Frye]

We'll be joining the amazing teams at Taste and Hark for Stay Cool, a summer food podcast evening.

[Michael Shulman]

Shilpa and I will be talking about how to keep your composure when things go wrong when you're baking. We have a lot of experience. Things go wrong often.

[Nomi Frye]

Yes, yes.

[Michael Shulman]

But all for all in the name of research.

[Nomi Frye]

I love a baking mistake.

[Michael Shulman]

I think you learn so much.

[Nomi Frye]

And it won't be just us that night. Padma Lakshmi, Hayley Catalano, and Chuck Cruz will also be there.

[Michael Shulman]

It's going to be really fun. Tickets for the event are on sale now. You can go to thebellhouseny.com staycool that is thebellhouseny.com StayCool. We can't wait to see you at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn on Wednesday, July 23rd.

[Nomi Frye]

So we've been talking about Patti LuPone. And you know, Patti LuPone is a particularly fascinating character in and of herself. But I think it can really provide us a window into the broader issue of the diva. The Broadway diva, but just the diva in culture in general. And so I want us to attempt to figure out together what exactly makes a diva. Maybe just to start with here, can we go back to the origin of the word, which is, of course, it comes from the opera. Can one of you. Maybe Vincent.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sure.

[Nomi Frye]

Can you tell us a little bit about the opera diva?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. I think the original idea, and you can hear it in the etymology of the word diva, divine. Someone who is bestowed, usually in the operatic context. A soprano who can sing incredibly high notes and sustain them for long times. Someone who is bestowed with an otherworldly gift, who is like a channel between the audience and the divine. Someone who represents the extremities of human capacity. Somebody who can do something, crucially, that you cannot and almost cannot even imagine yourself doing. Someone who's like, not just the best singer, but someone who can sort of stretch the possibilities of what you think singing even is.

[Nomi Frye]

Right. Right. And of course, I think one of the first names, if not the first name that comes to mind when we talk about the opera diva or the singer diva, is Maria Callas. Right. The famous, legendary mid century opera singer.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. And so there's so many things about Kallus that I think are interesting. Number one fulfills this criterion of being an incredible deliverer of songs. Someone who inspired. This is maybe the second criterion, inspired incredible fandom. People waiting on street corners, around blocks, waiting to get in, not only to hear her sing, but to kind of touch the hem of her garment. She was also kind of larger than life, both physically and in the actual contours of her life. This is.

[Nomi Frye]

How are you calling her? Fat? No, I'm gonna.

[Vincent Cunningham]

She famously was. And her attempts to lose weight were part of the narratives that would be in the tabloids. And there are people who said, oh, she lost weight, and therefore she lost some of the vibrance of her voice or whatever. But it goes to the sherry with Patti LuPone. To me, because the diva is someone who is like a sensualist, Someone who loves the world and loves to eat and loves to have sex. She had a very famous affair with Aristotle Onassis, did Maria Callas. So someone who takes in life and is a vessel not only for artistic joy, but just for fun, who is kind of speeding through the world at a breakneck pace.

[Nomi Frye]

That's so true.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Maria Callas is, like, fulfills all of that. For me, when we talk diva.

[Nomi Frye]

Totally. I mean, the kind of the risk taking behavior that comes from a love of sensualism. I mean, I'm thinking about like Liz Taylor, for instance, you know, married eight times, loses and gains weight like 17,000 times over the course of her lifetime. You know, pills and drink and food and. And all of that. And of course, incandescent talent. That's right, yeah. Michael, what is your. When you think about Callas, I mean, do you think was she our first diva, as you consider it?

[Michael Shulman]

Well, I feel like if Alix were here, and since I'm her stand, and I'll say she'd probably want us to go back to antiquity and these figures, like absolutely Cleopatra and Hera and like even, you know, in homarcy, oh, goddess, sing of the rage of Achilles or whatever and you know, Medea and you know, Greek tragedy creates these larger than life female characters like Medea in a way that I think a 19th century opera and turn of the century opera, you know, famously like Tosca, for instance, is herself an opera singer. A larger than life, messy, tragic, hyper jealous and emotional diva who is played by, you know, divas like Maria Callas. And when that happens, there's a kind of diva on diva energy. I think with Callas, you know, of course, you have to start, as Vincent said, with her talent. There's this wonderful 1995 New Yorker piece by Will Crutchfield about Callas. And there was a line I loved in every role, on practically every page, there were phrases that Callas was able to trace with a calligrapher's pen where audiences had become accustomed to a carpenter's pencil. But then there was also this side of her that was temperamental and she, you know, became unreliable and had to, you know, severed ties with all these opera houses because she was canceling performances. And then the. The tabloids would ding her because they'd see her, you know, canceling a performance and then going out partying in Milan or being on Arianesis yacht. There's also her appearance, you know, famously that you think of the eye makeup and the sort of like flowing black hair and her sort of like very Grecian face that just had this.

[Nomi Frye]

Had like Patti Lupone, much like Lupone. The prominent Roman nose.

[Michael Shulman]

Yes, exactly. And then she had this sort of glamorous, huge, but also tragic personal life where she left her husband for Aryanassis, this, you know, dashing jet setting, you know, magnate, and then he dumps her for Jackie Kennedy, of all people. So she's kind of like Tosca. She, you know, she sort of loses her Great love. And her voice is also vulnerable. You know, part of what this Will Crutchfield piece goes into is how, you know, she really had like 10 good years in the 50s, and then her famous soprano started to deteriorate to the point where she. It was almost a public embarrassment for her to sing by the 60s and 70s and she essentially ended her opera career. But I think that that vulnerability in her voice almost makes her more of an object of fascination and certainly like gay worship. I mean, you think about that with Judy Garland, for instance. You know, if you listen to her famous Carnegie hall concert from 1961, she also has these cracks in her voice and the sense that amazing gift of hers is also. This instrument is also very fragile.

[Nomi Frye]

Right. Because it kind of bears the wounds of a life hard lived. Right. The point being the diva is not a regular person. It's peaks and valleys with the diva. Right. And you know, we've kind of been dancing around this question, but maybe we should get down to brass tacks. What do we think makes and are there different types of divas?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, I think what's so good about Michael's Patti LuPone piece? You know, her complex and vulnerable psychology. The diva's somebody with a lot of backstory.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, I love that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Even before they reach the height of their diva dom and have all the money to throw at the true kind of like sybaritic pleasures or whatever. Even before that, they have Patti LuPone talks in Michael's piece about her maternal grandfather being mysteriously murdered, perhaps with help from the grandmother. And there's floorboards that help them hide whiskey because there's bootlegging going on. You know, just people who from. It seems that their talent almost coincides with an early understanding of the dark side of life. LuPone talks about her childhood neighborhood as having a dark underbelly. You know, someone whose talent conveys a sort of preternatural understanding of the like many sidedness of life.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No diva comes from a totally uncomplexly happy home. Would you agree with that?

[Nomi Frye]

I think so. I think so. For sure. I don't know why my mind goes to this, but it immediately goes to Lindsay Lohan.

[Michael Shulman]

Oh, boy.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Fair enough.

[Nomi Frye]

You know, a preternaturally talented child actor, also from Long Island. Also a complicated family life.

[Michael Shulman]

And by the way, she played Elizabeth Taylor in Liz And Dick, the TV movie Dr.

[Nomi Frye]

Absolutely. That's very true.

[Michael Shulman]

Another diva playing a diva.

[Nomi Frye]

Another diva on diva.

[Michael Shulman]

It's a triple diva. Because I think in that movie Liz Taylor is playing Cleopatra. In Cleopatra.

[Nomi Frye]

Yes. Because it's about her and Burton. Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Matroshka doll of Diva Dom.

[Nomi Frye]

Yes. And then there is also the kind of back and forth with the media, with the press, with the fans, where the complicated story that the diva brings with her from her past and kind of potentially makes her act out in her life and in her art, for better or worse, then gets kind of like recycled into press furor's, let's say, like these kind of like reactions, public reactions to these occurrences, these events in the diva's life. And which then in turn, of course, influences the diva herself. And so it's this kind of like recursive cycle.

[Michael Shulman]

It's interesting that you say that because of course, Patti in the profile says, I have been punished all my life, and sees herself as a kind of a victim.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

But of course, in the course of the profile says stuff that got her punished once again. So she's kind of like creating drama as she is complaining that she always is the victim of it. Yeah. I mean, I think what's interesting is that from Patti's perspective, she would say that she is someone who is of a stature and of a certain amount of talent, which I would not question where she. She knows what she's worth. And the problem in her mind, from her perspective, is that people keep getting in the way of letting her do what she does best. You know, she had this line that she said to me, I know what I bring to a production. I know I'm box office. Don't nickel and dime me before I get on stage. Don't treat me like a piece of shit. Because at this point, if you don't value me, why am I there? And I think that's a very powerful idea that, you know, if you are someone who has this incredible voice or this incredible whatever it is, if you're Elizabeth Taylor, you know, if you're Maria Callas, you should be treated like a queen. You should be treated like a star. And if people aren't doing that for you and making it easy from your perspective, the problem isn't you, it's them. But also, interestingly, Patti objects, we should say, to the term diva. And in fact, you know, we have a clip from Morning Joe from 2010 where she really laid out what she thought a diva was and why it should have stayed in the opera world and doesn't apply to her.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The great divas were the great opera singers.

[Nomi Frye]

Somehow it's gotten prostituted and come into the news world, the journalist world, the sports world, the rock world, the theater World.

[Michael Shulman]

And it doesn't.

[Nomi Frye]

It's a word that doesn't belong there.

[Michael Shulman]

Did you just say in the Morning.

[Nomi Frye]

Joe world, did someone call you a diva?

[Michael Shulman]

My producer.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay, with.

[Michael Shulman]

Tell me something. Did you like the term?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm a little hurt right now.

[Nomi Frye]

See, and wait a minute, wait a minute. What did he mean by that?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, he probably meant that I'm high.

[Michael Shulman]

Maintenance and I give him a hard.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Time and I make him.

[Nomi Frye]

And shouldn't you be. And shouldn't you be demanding anyway?

[Michael Shulman]

I guess.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I mean, I thought that's means she's a strong woman and men can't handle it.

[Nomi Frye]

Well, thank you very much.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That was such a disgusting. So the first thing that that clip illuminates, it shows how good Michael Shulman's Patty voice is. There's some. There's some deep resonances in Michael's commitment to, you know, when you read from the piece, it's pretty good. But go ahead, please.

[Michael Shulman]

Well, I just love that she's basically turning it around and saying, well, Mika Brzezinski, like, you're actually a highly respected, highly paid, you know, television journalist. You shouldn't be called a diva. You're, you know, you deserve to be respected. And that also gets to the kind of misogynistic side of the term, which, you know, basically when you call someone a diva, maybe it's like a female CEO or something. You're labeling behavior that if a man did it would be celebrated as, you know, risk taking or whatever or shooting from the hip or like working from the. From your guts. You know, there's a kind of behavior that we allow powerful men to get away with that if it's a woman, you slap the label diva on them and suddenly it's a personal foible of theirs and they're just acting inappropriately.

[Nomi Frye]

They're difficult. Yeah, they're difficult.

[Michael Shulman]

Difficult.

[Nomi Frye]

I guess one last question that I want to ask you before we break is like, can we say that we like divas? Is that, like, too simple of a question for this kind of figure?

[Michael Shulman]

Worship is the word worship, mother. You don't have to like them. You gotta worship them.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, you mentioned this earlier when you're talking about kallus, but I think it is one of the key characteristics, Michael, which is like, not only fandom and worship, but often it has been accompanied with the idea of this is a woman who is feted specifically by gay male fans, that this is part of the architecture of. Of the diva. And maybe this has to do with Patti LuPone kind of diagnoses this, even while she doesn't call herself a diva, she does address the question of why gay men like her. And it's like we share a struggle. It's like someone who acts like this despite having gone through something, maybe something structural.

[Michael Shulman]

Happy pride. Everyone happy pride. Happy to be here. Yeah. There was a piece in The Atlantic in 2015 by Logan Scherer about Ryan Murphy and how he uses the figures of divas in his work. He had a line that I liked. The queer infatuation with broken women isn't so much schadenfreude as it is a complicated mixture of identification and disidentification, at once a shared struggle and a well earned condescension. The femininity that humiliates these divas is, after all, the same femininity mainstream culture often associates with gay men. I thought that was a really good way to put it. Like, for me, I felt like this was pre conscious for me. Like, here's a story. When I was a little kid, I was absolutely obsessed with Miss Piggy. She was my first diva.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's such a good name.

[Michael Shulman]

And when I was in college or so before I came out to my parents, we were sitting at the dinner table and my mom said something like, you are so obsessed with Miss Piggy, you want it to be Miss Piggy. And my dad said, well, actually he was in love with Miss Piggy. And my mom goes, no, no, no, no. He wanted to be Miss Piggy. And I.

[Nomi Frye]

Wait, have you. Were you out then?

[Michael Shulman]

Michael, this was right before I came.

[Nomi Frye]

Out to them, and that is why I came out.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Let me clear this up.

[Michael Shulman]

But I feel like that they kind of are both right. Like, I was in love with Miss Piggy and in some sense wanted to be her. She had this, a larger than life, tempestuous femininity that is so alluring. And yet, of course, you know, like many of the other people we've talked about people and pigs, you know, she was. She had a. She has a messy love life. You know, Kermit just doesn't seem to be able to give her what. What she wants. She's constantly hungering for more fame, more stage time, and if she doesn't get what she wants, she will Hi ya. Kick you in the face.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wow. Miss Piggy as her diva for Michael Stroman is more lore than I can even stand.

[Nomi Frye]

I know. Remember, remember her with Joan Rivers at the makeup counter at Bloomingdale's in Muppets Take Manhattan?

[Michael Shulman]

Of course. A powder puff for you and a powder Puff for me.

[Nomi Frye]

Exactly. So beautiful. We've worshipped our divas for centuries, but in our era of therapy, speaking careful language, is there still a place for her? That's in a minute. On critics at large. Fear is the virus is trending on TikTok. Vaccines are poison.

[Michael Shulman]

Then your yoga teacher says that sex.

[Nomi Frye]

Trafficked children are being sacrificed by satanic liberals. But it's all okay. The great awakening is coming. What is happening? Every week on Conspirituality Podcast, we explore the fever dreams that suck. Friends, family, and wellness gurus down the right wing cult spiral in a search for salvation. Okay, you guys, we've been talking about the figure of the diva, and we've been talking about Michael Shulman's profile of Patti LuPone. And I want to go back for a second and read a selection from LuPone's apology after the profile came out. And there was all of this backlash to what she said about Keisha Lewis and about Audra McDonald. And so the apology that appeared on Patti LuPone's Instagram opened with what I think are the telling words. For as long as I have worked in the theater, I've spoken my mind and never apologized. That is changing today. I'm deeply sorry for the words I used during the New Yorker interview, particularly about Keisha Lewis, which were demeaning in disrespectful. And then she says, I made a mistake. I take full responsibility for it, and I'm committed to making this right. Our entire theater community deserves better. Okay, Michael, what were your thoughts when LuPone came out with this apology? I mean, you have made Ms. LuPone apologize. Someone who, as she says in her apology, has never apologized in her life, at least not publicly. Right.

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah. Where's my Tony Award?

[Nomi Frye]

Right.

[Michael Shulman]

What did I think of it? I mean, first of all, I thought it was well done. You know, I have no idea if she put pen to paper herself or hired a crisis PR person or how it got written, but it certainly, in that opening line, kind of nodded to her reputation, and I thought that helped. Cause it made it seem authentic. And I. Other than that, you know, I. It seemed like it would have to happen, that she would have to apologize. And. And so I thought that she would.

[Nomi Frye]

Right.

[Michael Shulman]

And I hope that she would, because I thought it had to be resolved, you know, for. For the world in some way.

[Nomi Frye]

Right.

[Michael Shulman]

By her saying something.

[Nomi Frye]

Right. But it also suggests to me a real shift, not just specifically in LuPone's ability to apologize or not, you know, kind of her own personal preference for how to act but more generally, does this signal kind of like a change in. That there's no room anymore for kind of old school diva behavior? Right. Like the ultimate diva is suddenly saying, oh, okay, like, this is not right. You know, I diva'd too hard, or whatever, however you wanna call it. And if that is indeed the case, like, is that a good thing? Are we sorry that divas, I guess, can't with impunity say whatever they want? Or is this, like, as you say, for the world to move on, an apology needed to happen?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, it's interesting because I think maybe this question is a microcosm of a larger. I don't know, idea that the diva embodied, which is even outside of the figure, the specific figure of the diva. I think for a long time, the idea was a person of incandescent talent is necessarily a person apart. You have to tolerate a little bit more from them. Because, again, whatever damage that leads to or accompanies their talent, whatever neurosis that fuels their ambition, is part of the package. They're a vulnerable instrument. They're like a little Stradivarius violin. And therefore, you have to allow them something different. Allowances have to be made. This goes to Michael's point about this person knowing their worth. And therefore I should be treated a certain way. So if that's the idea, maybe we now have a totally different idea of what an artist is, period. And I think that is true. Most of us. Maybe it's because of our increased access to these people through various media or whatever. It's like, oh, I want this person to be just that talented. But I also want to imagine that I could be their friend.

[Nomi Frye]

The relatable factor.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right. And Patti LuPone is like, not trying to. Part of not apologizing is like, I don't want you to imagine that you could be my friend. That's not the point of me.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And I think we kind of expect this. Oh, I want them to be somebody that I would see around my neighborhood or something. And then I want them to go up on stage and be otherworldly. They don't need to be otherworldly elsewhere. Cause I don't like that. I do think that spells a kind of change. Michael, do you think. What's your read on that?

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah, I mean, I would say that the diva is at a real crossroads. Because the diva at a crossroads.

[Nomi Frye]

A special report from the New Yorker.

[Michael Shulman]

It's act five. What's gonna happen to Tosca? She should see the HR department and get her act in line. No, because we do have the, you know, I think, you know, like me Too, for instance, has given us all a higher awareness of sort of proper behavior in the workplace, even if it's a creative workplace. However, I don't think we'll ever stop being drawn to larger than life characters living messy, larger than life personal lives. I think we do want that in a sense. Although when I think of the current crop of pop divas, many of them are much more disciplined in their public Personas than the divas of the past. You know, when you think about, like, Beyonce and Lady Gaga.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

Taylor Swift, like, you know, they have more. Is Taylor Swift interested in.

[Nomi Frye]

That's such an interesting.

[Michael Shulman]

See, I don't even think she is so disciplined.

[Nomi Frye]

I don't think she is. I think that discipline, you know, what you're saying, I think is so true, Michael. The kind of, like, new version of these figures who are kind of like really extremely, insanely talented and yet operate as machines in some sense. Right. It's like pumping out the songs, performing flawlessly. Obviously, Taylor Swift is incomparably successful, you know, and extremely talented and worshiped by millions and millions of people. And yet maybe the kind of, like, discipline crosses over at some point into being, like, not a diva anymore, you know?

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah. And at the same time, you have someone like Nicki Minaj, who is, you know, one of the sort of pop divas who is constantly in feuds and being messy, like, taking her beef to social media. And I think she's alternately worshipped and defended and also penalized for it, you know, So I don't know. I do think there's a line that people can cross, but it's constantly shifting.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. It does seem like, you know, Taylor Swift has maybe built her career and personality around this thing that I'm saying that people want now, which is she's got a total idea of her art, which seems to be very much under control, and then she invites you into her life. Even through her lyrics, she's inviting you into her life. I'm just a girl. And, like, her interaction with her fans is on this level of, you're not gonna know me, but I'll get as close to that as we can get, me and you. And I'll remind you, sort of as an archetype of many other people that, you know, whereas Beyonce, it seems like there's a form of the diva that is maybe coming more into the fore is, well, I'm not gonna be always in the New York Post about my, you know, various feats and the parties I throw and who I'm dating. In fact, the new coin of the realm would be like rarity. Total control. You never see me. You don't even know what restaurants I go to. You've never seen the faces of several of my children. And I'll put out the documentary that shows me kind of not berating but like scolding my dancers that they're not ready. You know, when her Coachella documentary, getting ready for that big performance, it's like the diva dom becomes perfectionist. Control, which she'll show you that side of herself. I want this to be perfect. I want this to be perfect. I want this to be perfect. But it will never seem that I slipped out of control.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah. You know, I think the hunger for mess and the hunger for diva, like, behavior remains. And I think we might seek it in kind of something like the Ryan Murphy universe that we've mentioned. Whether fictional figures, you know, American Horror Story or like Kim Kardashian playing some, like, lawyer in like, Ryan Murphy's upcoming show about kind of like an all woman law firm. It can also be just historical characters.

[Michael Shulman]

You know, like Bette Davis and Joan Crawford, which he made a.

[Nomi Frye]

Yes, the Feud miniseries about. Yeah, his Feud series. These figures that we can observe maybe more safely. Right. Kind of adaptations of a diva rather than actual, like real life diva. Another thing I'm thinking about is reality television. You know, all of these figures of larger than life women tearing each other's hair out, you know, and living their lives out loud in public. Of course, they don't have the incandescent talents that a callous had, but they do have the mess. Right. And the fact that they are willing to put it all out for us, the viewing audience on screen at all times seems to me to maybe quell some of that hunger possibly that we feel for kind of like diva drama.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, it's. I do think of the diva as somebody who we, on some level, you know, we are. It's our attraction to that messiness. Like, as you say. Right.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But what we love about it is the transcendence. Our colleague and editor, David Remnick wrote a piece about Aretha Franklin a couple of years back in 2016. And it talks about all kinds of eccentricities. Like, Aretha only accepts cash and she puts it in her handbag. And sometimes she takes that handbag out on stage with her because she never wants to take her eye off the money, whatever. She never flies. She only takes tour buses on and on and on and on. But at the end of the piece, which I just love a musician. Now passed a great musician. Billy Preston says this about Aretha. He says, like, I don't care what they say about Aretha. She can be hiding out in her house in Detroit for years. She can go decades without taking a plane or flying off to Europe. She can cancel half her gigs, infuriate every producer and promoter in the country. She can sing all kinds of jive ass songs that are beneath her, on and on and on and on and on. But he says, on any given night, when that lady sits down at the piano and gets her body and soul all over some righteous song, she'll scare the shit out of you. And you'll know. You'll swear that she's still the best fucking singer this fucked up country has ever produced.

[Nomi Frye]

Ugh, what a quote.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's like not only is it somebody that you're like, okay to accept the bad from, but it's somebody who gives you something in the form of real art that makes you willing to forgive other things. Like, it has to be that. It has to be a constant relationship of nourishment from artist to audience. Michael, thank you so much for coming in.

[Nomi Frye]

Thank you. You were the best.

[Michael Shulman]

This has been so fun. I can I just say, first of all, Nomi, Nomi, thank you for doing such a lovely hosting job today. But I think now you should throw down your microphone and storm out.

[Nomi Frye]

That is enough.

[Michael Shulman]

Cause you're worth it.

[Nomi Frye]

This has been Critics at Large. This week's episode was produced by Michelle o' Brien. Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Conde Nast's head of Global audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrado composed our theme music, and we had engineering help today from James Yost with mixing by Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] critics hi, I'm Deborah Treisman, fiction editor of the New Yorker. Each week on the Writer's Voice podcast, New Yorker fiction writers read their newly published stories from the magazine. You can hear from authors like Colson Whitehead.

[Michael Shulman]

Turner nudged Elwood, who had a look.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Of horror on his face. They saw it.

[Michael Shulman]

Griff wasn't going down. He was going to go for it. No matter what happened after.

[Nomi Frye]

Or Joy Williams, her father was silent. Slowly, he passed his hand over his hair. This usually meant that he was traveling to a place immune to her presence, a place that indeed contradicted her presence. She might as well go to lunch, listen to news stories or dive into our archive of great fiction. You can find the work of your favorite fiction writers and discover new ones. Listen and follow the Writer's voice wherever you get your podcasts from PRX.