The Grand Spectacle of Pope Week

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker
Episode: The Grand Spectacle of Pope Week
Release Date: May 15, 2025

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Introduction

In the May 15, 2025 episode of Critics at Large, The New Yorker's cultural critics—Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Frye, and Alexandra Schwartz—delve into the whirlwind of events surrounding the death of Pope Francis and the subsequent election of the new Pope, Leo XIV. Titled "The Grand Spectacle of Pope Week," the episode explores the intersection of religion, media, and pop culture, examining how the papacy has become a focal point in contemporary society.

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The Spectacle of Pope Week

The hosts open the discussion by highlighting the intense public fascination with the conclave that elected Pope Leo XIV, an American from Chicago with notable African ancestry. They liken the week-long event to a reality show, emphasizing the grandeur and ritualistic elements that captivated audiences worldwide.

Vincent Cunningham [02:00]: "Over the last week, we three, like so many others, have been laser-focused on the pomp and circumstance around the new American Chicago-born Pope Leo XIV."

Social Media and Public Reaction

Naomi Frye reflects on the pervasive presence of Pope Week across various social media platforms, noting an unexpected surge in interest even among those who are not traditionally religious.

Nomi Frye [06:25]: "Social media feeds in general... have been clogged to explosion with Pope content. I have been taken over by this wave of excitement around the new Pope."

Alex Schwartz attributes this phenomenon to the Catholic Church's inherent affinity for aesthetics and symbolism, which seamlessly integrate with modern digital media dynamics.

Alex Schwartz [07:27]: "The Catholic Church was made for this moment. It anticipates platforms like TikTok and Instagram, focusing on aesthetics and appearances."

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Insights from Paul Ely in Rome

The episode features an insightful conversation with Paul Ely, a New Yorker writer who was present on the rooftop in central Rome during the announcement of the new Pope. Paul shares his firsthand experience of witnessing the momentous occasion, describing the congregated yet digitally engrossed crowd awaiting the signal of white smoke.

Paul Ely [11:45]: "People were standing in clusters, absolutely not moving, looking at their own phones... almost like a Giacometti still life."

Paul emphasizes the evolving nature of Catholic engagement, suggesting that major public events like the conclave serve as unifying moments that draw both devout Catholics and peripheral believers closer to the Church.

Paul Ely [14:34]: "As Catholic life on the ground has thinned out, Catholics are brought together through big public events like the election of the Pope."

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Pop Culture Representations of the Papacy

Transitioning to pop culture, the hosts discuss various cinematic and television portrayals of the papacy. They analyze the film "Conclave" and the HBO series "The Young Pope," exploring how these narratives reflect and shape public perceptions of the Church.

• "Conclave" is praised for its accurate and aesthetic depiction of the papal election process, aligning closely with real-life events.

• "The Young Pope," starring Jude Law, is critiqued for its dramatized and often cynical portrayal of a papacy driven by personal ambition and psychopathy.

Alex Schwartz [25:07]: "The conclave was great for the church. It presented the Church as an institution eager to move forward while grappling with its past."

Vincent Cunningham [33:17]: "The picture of the Church in 'The Young Pope' is an aesthetic playground full of cynical bureaucrats. It portrays a rotting institution needing a touch of psychopathy to rejuvenate."

Additionally, "The Two Popes" (2019) is highlighted for its more nuanced and humanizing exploration of the relationship between Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis, presenting it as a "buddy comedy" that delves into institutional anxiety and personal faith crises.

Alex Schwartz [35:53]: "'The Two Popes' is a buddy comedy that addresses the anxiety around the direction of the Church, questioning whether to remain the same or pursue radical change."

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The Pope as a Media Figure

The discussion underscores the evolving role of the Pope as a prominent media figure. Unlike his predecessors, Pope Francis was adept at leveraging media to influence global conversations. The newly elected Pope Leo XIV is seen as continuing this legacy, particularly through his emphasis on peace and addressing contemporary issues such as artificial intelligence and labor relations.

Vincent Cunningham [44:53]: "One of Leo's first addresses was about ending Russia's aggression in Ukraine and calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. He's very anti-war."

However, there is also contemplation on the challenges Leo XIV may face, given his conservative stances on issues like same-sex marriage and women's roles within the Church.

Vincent Cunningham [45:09]: "Leo's early signs are hopeful, focusing on peace and human dignity, but he maintains traditional Church teachings that may not align with progressive movements."

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The Significance of Pope Leo XIV's Election

Pope Leo XIV's election as the first American pope with African roots marks a significant moment for the Catholic Church. The hosts discuss the cultural and symbolic implications of his background, as well as the rapid public engagement and fandom that has emerged around him.

Alex Schwartz [16:34]: "Leo's focus on peace and his call for a ceasefire in conflicts resonate deeply in a world yearning for moral leadership."

The hosts also highlight the resurgence of spiritual belief in the face of societal fragmentation and institutional distrust, citing a recent Pew poll where 92% of Americans reported holding some form of spiritual belief.

Nomi Frye [40:58]: "A Pew study found that 92% of Americans hold some form of spiritual belief. This surge may be a response to the collapse of other institutions and a search for unified belief systems."

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Conclusions

The episode concludes by reflecting on the broader cultural and societal shifts that have amplified the significance of Pope Week. The hosts posit that in an era marked by crises and a longing for meaningful leadership, the Catholic Church—and the papacy—has reemerged as a potent symbol of hope and moral guidance.

Alex Schwartz [44:30]: "What many of us want is a sense of leadership that is actually moral at the base. The Pope represents that in a time where we've seen leaders leading us to disaster."

Nomi Frye [47:39]: "We need something to live for. This excitement around the conclave and Pope Leo XIV is a reflection of that need."

As Pope Leo XIV begins his papacy, Critics at Large anticipates ongoing cultural dialogues about the role of religion, media, and leadership in shaping our collective future.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Vincent Cunningham [02:00]: "Why am I getting all of these ads for cat food? It's ridiculous... When you want to reach the right professionals, you should use LinkedIn ads."

• Nomi Frye [06:25]: "Social media feeds in general, whether it's x, whether it's TikTok... have been clogged to explosion with Pope content."

• Alex Schwartz [07:27]: "The Catholic Church was made for this moment... It has every aspect of what we want from watching."

• Paul Ely [11:45]: "People were standing in clusters, absolutely not moving, looking at their own phones... almost like a Giacometti still life."

• Vincent Cunningham [45:09]: "Leo... he's very anti-war. But he maintains traditional Church teachings."

• Nomi Frye [40:58]: "A Pew study found that 92% of Americans hold some form of spiritual belief."

• Alex Schwartz [44:30]: "What many of us want is a sense of leadership that is actually moral at the base."

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Final Notes

This episode encapsulates the dynamic interplay between tradition and modernity within the Catholic Church, spotlighting the influential role of the papacy in contemporary culture. Through insightful analysis and firsthand accounts, Critics at Large provides a comprehensive exploration of how Pope Week has become a grand spectacle that resonates far beyond ecclesiastical boundaries.

Transcript

[Nomi Frye]

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[Vincent Cunningham]

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[Alex Schwartz]

This is Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Alex Schwartz.

[Nomi Frye]

I'm Nomi Frye.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And I'm Vincent Cunningham. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Hello, hello, hello, hello, and welcome to Pope Week. How's it going?

[Alex Schwartz]

I feel like that's what a week.

[Nomi Frye]

It's.

[Alex Schwartz]

I feel like we're on the Great British Bake off. And it's not bread week. It's Pope week.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's Pope week.

[Alex Schwartz]

We have to manufacture a pope.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Make a big white Italian cake.

[Alex Schwartz]

Exactly.

[Nomi Frye]

American cake.

[Alex Schwartz]

An American cake.

[Vincent Cunningham]

There we go. It's true. It's true. Over the last week, we three, like so many others, I'm assuming many of you listeners have been laser focused on the pomp, the circumstance around the new American Chicago born Pope Leo xiv.

[Nomi Frye]

Zapace Si a contuti voi.

[Vincent Cunningham]

There was, of course, the. After the death of Francis, the actually, like the totally beautiful funeral, which you wrote about, which I did write about. And then the great mass sending him off, and then the waiting, the conclave. Cardinals like. Well, like red birds, you know, flocking up and down into a room, sharing.

[Nomi Frye]

A smoke, sharing a.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sharing a smoke by the side of the Loggia.

[Nomi Frye]

It's true.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And then once the new Pope was named, excitement around all things Pope only skyrocketed higher. Are you guys experiencing this? Are you seeing on your social feeds and everything? Are you experiencing Pope mania in your own lives and in the lives of your friends?

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, totally. Like, it's to a surprising extent, I would say I am not a Catholic. I am famously not a Catholic and famously not especially learned or curious about all matters papacy. And yet, and yet, to my surprise, I have been taken over by this wave of excitement around the new Pope.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, you know, I was at the Museum of Modern Art and I just checked in with my phone to see what was happening and I happened to catch the clip when the doors were closing for the Conclave to begin.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Extra omnes.

[Alex Schwartz]

Extra homnes. I mean, it's very dramatic. So dramatic. It's the reality show of reality shows.

[Paul Ely]

It really is.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It is.

[Nomi Frye]

And also what added to that, and we'll talk about this, I'm sure, is just like the whole social media hoopla around this, the whole like Gen Z TikTok ification, if you will, of the Conclave and who's it gonna be and once elected, who he is, what we know, the Kremlinology involved in reading like so many tea leaves, reading Robert Prevost's the new Pope Leo, 14th Twitter feed xfeed.

[Alex Schwartz]

There's a frenzy to interpret, which we love.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's all we want, we want.

[Alex Schwartz]

That's all we want, we want.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Read the frenzy. So our episode today is there for all about the Pope. We're talking about the response online where most of us have been taking this all in. We're also going to hear from our colleague Paul Ely, who had the rare experience of watching the spectacle unfold on the ground in Rome. We're talking about the film Conclave and some of the other pop culture Popes of recent years. And one thing that I want to ask you guys about is simply, you know, with everyone looking at Catholicism right now, this huge moment of image making for an image obsessed religion. What's up with religion these days? Are more people into it? Have the promises of other systems of thought failed us to the point where we're kind of making a return? That's today on critics of large the grand spectacle of Pope week.

[Nomi Frye]

I love this haunted whisper towards the end Pope Week, Pope week.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So we just have to kind of sketch out what it's been like to watch what is really a huge historical event unfold. It's been about a week since Robert Francis Prevost, an American born in Chicago, was elected Pope Leo xiv. How have you guys been taking this in? By what means? Besides our group chat, our group text where we feverishly have been sending Pope content. How are you being fed this fire hose of papal information?

[Nomi Frye]

Social media feeds in general, whether it's x, whether it's TikTok, whether it's even Instagram, have been clogged to explosion with Pope content. I mean, obviously, I know it's like there's like a billion point four Catholics in the world. Like, choosing a new Pope is an enormous. An endeavor of enormous importance. Right. But I was surprised at how poppy it was. Alex, did that surprise you? Or were you kind of primed to know that there's gonna be a guy on TikTok who's gonna be like, okay, so those divas are, like, locked in the Sistine Chapel, and we have, you know, contender. It's like, you know, this. It's like. And it's. The potential candidates to become Pope are superimposed with, like, gowns, much like the Real Housewives opener and their taglines and just all of that. Did that surprise, you know?

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, was I surprised by all this activity on TikTok? The Catholic Church was made for this moment. I think 2,000 years ago. The Catholic Church basically anticipated TikTok, Instagram, X, whatever. You don't have those. Claim you don't have those little Swiss Guard outfits and think they're not being photographed. Oil painting is not enough. The Catholic Church is about aesthetics. So much of it is about appearances, about aesthetics. And of course, at the very heart of that is secrecy. Like, what do we like more than a big wooden door being slammed shut in our faces as many men in fancy dress gather behind it to write on note paper that's gonna be stuck through with these red strings? I mean, it has every aspect of what we want from watching from. It has the competition aspect of it, it has the aesthetics aspect of it. That's basically what I'm saying. So I do think it gives a lot for people to grab onto.

[Nomi Frye]

Right? It's giving Eyes Wide Shut.

[Alex Schwartz]

The actual religious element aside. Yeah, Vincent, bring us back.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No, it's also true. First of all, it was an incredible shock that there was an American Pope, and then there was a round of, okay, so there we have Pope Leo xiv. And then suddenly people start to do genealogical research on him and realize that he has Creole ancestry from Louisiana, and before Louisiana, Haiti. And I just wanna read a headline for you. I wanna shout out the Black Catholic Messenger. It is a great online resource, sort of like Black Catholic News. And this guy, Nate Tenor Williams, who is kind of an indefatigable reporter, he's really interesting. The headline is white smoke, Black Pope.

[Alex Schwartz]

Beautiful work.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Pope Leo xiv, first American pontiff, has African roots. And so then people were making like, oh, he's my cousin. The sort of black joke started flying. It was just really interesting how even when the selection was made, yes, it was about the secrecy and the process, but even then, people started to project so much stuff onto this individual, which is one of the lasting uses of the papacy. It's like, okay, here's somebody. I wanna scrape everything I can find about them in no time. Scrape it for. Meaning that I can sort of project my own stuff into the sort of tabula rasa of somebody that almost none of us have ever seen before. It was so interesting to see that get filled up so quickly.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah. The idea of essentially a fandom. Right. The structure of fandom, where the fan, or the believer in this case is. Yeah. Projecting a shared element, whatever it might be. It might be racial, ethnic, you know, like locality, you know, the fact. I mean, I felt closer to the Pope when I saw that he shared a Snoopy meme. Because I famously love peanuts, as we mentioned on our advice episode just last week, it's like the need to immediately connect and feel closer to a character that is like a superstar, you know, larger than life, like bringing that figure down to earth.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Right. And so, as we've been saying, you know, all around the world, people have been using various media to keep up with this, but there still is kind of, you know, the trad version of keeping up with it, which is just being in Rome.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, yes.

[Alex Schwartz]

The experience itself.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You could actually just be there. Yeah. So luckily, as you guys know, we've got a guy. His name is Paul Eli.

[Alex Schwartz]

Our man in Rome.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Our man in Rome. Our colleague who writes for the New Yorker about the Catholic Church. Nomi and I, the other day, hopped onto the phone with him.

[Nomi Frye]

We got on the horn.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We got on the horn. We wanted to get his view both on how this felt on the ground, but also a bit of context, setting, how to make sense of this moment more broadly.

[Nomi Frye]

Hi.

[Paul Ely]

Hi there, Paul. Good to see you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Vincent, good to see you. It's been a while.

[Nomi Frye]

Okay, so, Paul, where exactly were you when they were announcing the new Pope? And why did you pick that particular place?

[Paul Ely]

I was on a rooftop in central Rome. I had a couple of choices, like get kind of color in the Square, but watch it on a giant screen TV like everybody else. Go to the press room and do something from there, also on a giant screen tv, or do what I eventually did, which was find a site in central Rome to get a different take on the whole thing. And from reading a lot about the papacy over the years, I knew that it's tradition that when a new Pope is elected, the bells rang all over Rome. And I thought I got to hear that with my own ears for once. So I put myself up among the bells, about five stories up over a grand square in Rome. And then when an Italian friend of mine with whom I just had lunch texted white smoke, I looked down in the square and people were standing in clusters, absolutely not moving, looking at their own phones, or two or three people clustered around a phone. And, you know, I'm not the first person to associate the act of looking at a phone with the act of prayer. Almost like a Giacometti still life down in the square of these still figures standing in small clusters watching just that white smoke streaming from the chimney. On their digital media, you mentioned getting.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Text messages in the way that this sort of. Even while people are in the vicinity, there's an aspect of online to kind of, to following this, the digital word spreading at a different tempo, you know, than the spoken word. Maybe we have been like, feverishly watching this thing over. We've got a text message thread where.

[Nomi Frye]

We'Re like, yeah, we haven't chat the critics, where we were sharing information. It was. It was. Obviously, we're not there, not on the ground, but it seems from what you're saying, that whether you're in Rome or you're in New York, it's. It's like everybody was praying at their phones, right?

[Paul Ely]

Like, yeah, I think it's a kind of binding event. I mean, in the piece that went up shortly after the Pope was elected, I made a point about how mediated the whole experience in the square was, and it really was. But I don't think that's altogether a bad thing. I mean, it's my view that as Catholic life on the ground has thinned out, that Catholics are brought together and led to identify as Catholics through these big public events. The death of a Pope, a conclave, the election of the Pope, a papal visit. So this wasn't just a kind of profane affair. People standing around their phones and sending pray emojis and waiting for white smoke on whatever app they're looking at is their way of engaging. And a lot of people on the periphery of the church feel really drawn to it in this moment, I think, through social media.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Would you say that the Pope as a media figure is kind of more significant than ever? Just as a figure? The Pope figures more heavily in Catholic life than ever as a result of.

[Paul Ely]

What you're saying in general, yes. Back when the Pope nominally had a lot more power, fewer people traveled to Italy, people didn't even know the Pope. Sounded like they had a picture of the Pope on the wall in parish or something like that. But now, and this is a question that's facing the new Pope, Leo is. To what extent is the job identified with being a media figure? John Paul ii, three decades as Pope, he was trained as an actor, master of the dramatic gesture. He was followed by Benedict. And Pope Benedict's pontificate had a lot of problems, and one of them was that he just didn't have the kind of performative vibe at all.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No flare for drama on Benedict. He was. He was not a star for the screen.

[Paul Ely]

Yeah. I mean, he. Here in this moment, you see a person going from being an eminent, A person who's greeted with a certain respect because he's a cardinal in certain places that he's very little about. His life is known to a global celebrity, an absolute monarch and a sage or wise person all at once. And a lot of this stuff is either projected onto the person or extracted from. From really minimal details. Benedict liked cats, and that became such a thing.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, that's. That's really big for me.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Do you. Do you, though, speaking of the fact that you've been writing about this stuff for a long time, do you feel a different level of interest from people who are not Catholics or not sort of insiders to Catholic media? It seems clear to me online and elsewhere that people care more about this stuff than they have in my lifetime. Do you feel that?

[Paul Ely]

Absolutely. My sample group is not vast, but Pope Francis urged the Church to go to the peripheries. And one of the peripheries that he went to was people who are on the periphery of. Of religion. The people who. Not only do they. Not only are they disinclined to be interested in religion, but don't forget the Catholic Church just went through a rending scandal of clerical sexual abuse.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Paul Ely]

So the fact that we're now attending closely to these cardinals who are the direct successors of. Of a generation of men who. Who were guilty of a profound dereliction of duty, and that's to put it lightly when it comes to sexual abuse by clerics, it's amazing that there's still this reservoir of, of curiosity and good feeling towards, towards the hierarchs of the church.

[Nomi Frye]

Are those bells? Yeah, I'm sorry, right about, I think I heard bells. Yeah.

[Paul Ely]

It's the, you know, half of the hour at this, at this guest house. And they have a belfry up top with a bell that rings. It looks like, like a medieval belfry. And it's really sweet. Maybe I'll send you a picture of it. I have one on my phone.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Paul, I have a really serious journalistic question for you. And that is whether you have a favorite TV or cinematic pope.

[Paul Ely]

Wow.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Who. Who inhabited the papacy best from, from the hallowed precincts of Hollywood.

[Paul Ely]

That's a really good question. You know, my favorite Catholic work doesn't have a pope or cardinal in it. It's a Brideshead Revisited.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay.

[Paul Ely]

And the, the enchantment of that kind of Catholicism and the country house priest who gathers the family around to celebrate mass in their giant place. And then the place, the chapel is deconsecrated when you feel them take that chapel apart at the end of the book. And then of the British series, you can really feel the loss of the sacred. It's beautifully rendered and so that's the first one that comes to mind.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, I love that. Paul, this was a pleasure. Thank you so much for agreeing to talk to us from, from Straight from Rome.

[Paul Ely]

Thanks so much.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Paul, you're the man.

[Paul Ely]

I really can't think of a cardinal that I love on film. I gotta think about that. Snore.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well now, now, you know, this is, this is next piece maybe.

[Paul Ely]

Okay.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That was Paul Ely joining us very poetically from the rooftops of Rome. When we're back, we're talking about the film Conkling and other on screen popes of recent years. That's right after the break.

[Alex Schwartz]

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[Vincent Cunningham]

I so enjoyed talking to Paul and one thing as we discussed that I keep thinking about is, and perhaps this is a product of the way that we consume media now, but the power of one person, let's face it, a pop cultural figure like Francis, who was very deft at manipulating symbols and inserting himself into the great stories of the day. For example, every night he called the same one church in Gaza every night had this real facility with the media and with being visible. How on some level, just like one person's fame can change the relevance of a centuries old organization. It's this odd paradox.

[Alex Schwartz]

Totally. I mean, Francis as symbol, as both religious symbol and pop cultural symbol, I think cannot be overstated. And I was so interested in your conversation with Paul and with what Paul had to say. And one thing that really struck me was, you know, his own interest in the fact that people are again turning to the church after this age of scandal. And I, you know, I don't think it's incidental or coincidental. I think that people have clearly needed to Reinvest the Church with meaning coming off of that. And to have the horrors of that era of abuse cleansed. That's right. And for many people, I don't think it can be cleansed. I frankly don't think it should be cleansed. I think it's a reckoning that will have to go on for a very long time.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yes.

[Alex Schwartz]

But I sense in some of this excitement, especially over images and over symbolism and over whether it's racial identity or national identity or ideological identity, a desire, as Noemi was saying before, to see oneself in the church again.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah. It's giving. We're so back. Or like a desire for it to give. Were so back, you know?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. And the signs of that desire, I think these things were visible even before Frances death. I mean, the. To me, surprising popularity of the Ralph Fiennes suspense flick Conclave, which I loved, the Church's reintegration into pop culture was a sign of that. It was like a little foretaste of what was happening.

[Nomi Frye]

It was a foretaste for sure. You know, I heard about it from you, Alix, when you watched it. I know you really liked it.

[Alex Schwartz]

I've been beating the drum for Conclave. I'm not alone. Yeah, Dress me up in one of your striped suits, like one of your Swiss Guards.

[Nomi Frye]

And I was like, really? Conclave, Vatican City, the Pope. This doesn't really sound like it is for me, and I'm very glad that the time has come in real life to select a new Pope and that we're doing an episode about it, because it gave me a chance to watch it, and I very much enjoyed it. Surprise.

[Alex Schwartz]

Nomi liked Conclave. We now know, all three of us, like Conclave.

[Nomi Frye]

It's a great movie, as you say, Vincent. It is kind of no coincidence that the this is happening kind of the setting of this movie, the setting where this drama is taking place, is the kind of, like, heightened moment of a new Pope is being selected. It's about an engagement between people, but it's also about ideology. Right. It's like, what do we want this church to look like? And the kind of political skirmishes that go on around that if Tedesco becomes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Pope, he will undo 60 years of progress. You talk as if you're the only.

[Paul Ely]

Alternative, but Adeyemi has the wind behind him.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Adeyemi?

[Paul Ely]

Mm.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Adeyemi. The man who believes that homosexuals should be sent to prison in this world and hell in the next. Adeyemi's not the answer to anything, and you know it.

[Paul Ely]

If you want to defeat Tedesco. This is a conclave, Aldo. It's not a war.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It is a war, and you have to commit to. To a side.

[Alex Schwartz]

I think a huge part of the appeal of the movie is power and how power works and how it's made. The picture of the Catholic Church that we get in this movie is of an institution that is having problems. The sexual abuse scandal is mentioned. The problems that the movie focuses on are otherwise mentioned.

[Nomi Frye]

Once, I believe. Briefly, though.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. I do think the image of the church that's given is one, is of a flawed and fractured institution in which people really care and want to repair and want to push it in a meaningful direction. Like, it's very much a movie of the Francis papacy. And there is the implication is that the pope who's just died was a liberalizing pope. And much as in our current reality. And the question before that came before Leo and to some extent still exists with him, is the next pope going to carry on this legacy or is he not? We could really go back in time or we could move forward. And that's, in general, a political question that we in the United States of America are used to asking outside the context of religion. Yeah. So I think, like, that conclave was great for the church.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Do you guys have other. Are there other notable or favorite on screen popes in your lives?

[Nomi Frye]

Well, I was assigned to watch.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yep.

[Alex Schwartz]

She's a real enthusiast, folks.

[Nomi Frye]

The prequel to the Da Vinci Code. Mm. Thrilling Angels and Demons, based on a book by Dan Brown. The book, in fact, came out before the Da Vinci Code, the novel. But then was made into a movie after the Da Vinci Code came out after the great success of the Da Vinci Code. And it stars Tom Hanks once again as Professor Langdon, who's a symbologist.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Whoa.

[Alex Schwartz]

And forgot all about that guy. But he used to be so big.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, it was really big.

[Paul Ely]

Professor Elaine, you spent your life searching.

[Vincent Cunningham]

For symbols like the one you now.

[Nomi Frye]

Hold in your hand. How much longer are we going to pretend you have not already decided to come? It's interesting because the setup, much like Conclave. The Pope has died. The pope has died in. And the cardinals are about to go into a conclave in Vatican City, but the Illuminati are on the loose.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, no.

[Nomi Frye]

And they kidnap four cardinals.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Illuminati out.

[Nomi Frye]

It's slop and glop. There's so much going on. And then they bring in. I'm not gonna even get into, like, the beautiful scientist who creates antimatter that's also been stolen by The Illuminati to, like, explode Vatican City. It's just interesting how different it is from Conclave. The ritual, which is so interesting and beautifully visual in Conclave, is used here as well. But it's a footnote. And it's interesting that, like, what holds our attention in this 2024 movie that we discussed, Conclave, which is like, where is the Church going? Who will the Pope be? It's so different from this movie from 2009, where the whole thing about the Pope's death and the Cardinal's coming and all of that is just kind of an afterthought.

[Alex Schwartz]

Can I ask a general Da Vinci Code question? It's been so long since I've thought about the Da Vinci Code. Was it the case that the Church in the Da Vinci Code was the site of. Was that what was going on? Like, was the Illuminati a church thing?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's kind of, if not the seat of evil, it's the seat of mystery, mystery, intrigue.

[Nomi Frye]

It's almost like the occult or something. Like something is going on there.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, it's just. It's interesting to me because in my memory, I mean, the book and the movies were so huge, and we're talking going back to the early 2000s, like 2000, I think the Da Vinci Code itself came out in 2003, and the adaptation came out in 2006, and they were so huge. And the Church was really unhappy about it. In my memory, I think I'm right. Many people felt it was an attack on the Catholic Church. But time wise, that makes total sense to me. The sex abuse scandal was getting very, very, very big at that time, and more and more abuse was being uncovered and settlements were being. And it was really like at the heart of the whole lid being blown off the sex abuse scandal in the Church. So it's very interesting to me that we had that and you go from that to conclave, where now the attitude is respect.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Right.

[Alex Schwartz]

Like, the fundamental attitude is, okay, the church is made up of men, and they're fallible, but some of them are really trying to do good things.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right. Yeah. Did any of you see either of you see the young Pope? I love the young Pope.

[Nomi Frye]

I did not see the young Pope. I did not see it. I did not see it.

[Alex Schwartz]

I really. I did see it when it came out. And what remains with me is the accent.

[Nomi Frye]

What was the accent?

[Vincent Cunningham]

The accent of Jude Law?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, it's very like Lydia Tarr's Queen's origins. That's the accent.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So Lenny Velardo is the young Pope. The young Pope played by Jude Law. It's a story. It came out on HBO when HBO was still called HBO in 2016. It was created by Paolo Sorrentino, who to me is like a genius. He's such a painter of visuals. And it was a series about this guy, Lenny Belardo, who is a cardinal.

[Alex Schwartz]

From New York City, as his accent will tell you exactly.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But he's like sort of a psychopath.

[Nomi Frye]

It's like Goodfellas.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. It's like if instead. That's exactly what it's. It's like instead of becoming a made man, he was made Pope. That should be the tagline of the whole thing, right?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Made Pope.

[Nomi Frye]

The made Pope.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So in a big surprise, he is elected Pope. He takes on the name of Pius xiii, and he starts to just act strangely.

[Paul Ely]

The Radio Vatican signal needs boosting. It's unacceptable. The reception is so poor. Two, the Pope wants to see all.

[Alex Schwartz]

The gifts the Pope receives, have a.

[Paul Ely]

Storage facility fitted out for storing all the gifts I receive. Three, the Vatican must immediately buy back the papal tiara from the Basilica in Washington, D.C. which my predecessors, who favored.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sobriety over tradition, imprudently let go.

[Paul Ely]

And Sister Mary will also look after you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

She will oversee all your activities and.

[Paul Ely]

Report directly back to me.

[Vincent Cunningham]

He's kind of an arch conservative, but he's also just kind of a psychopath.

[Nomi Frye]

So it's the bad Pope.

[Vincent Cunningham]

He's a psychotic. Just like, what if the Pope was a sociopath? My read of the show, which I loved so much and I rewatched a little bit of recently, is that it's purely about the aesthetics that, like, he makes these beautiful tableaus sometimes. Pope Lenny. Pope Lenny is dreaming. And it's just like people are in these, are standing still, and the camera's just, like, inspecting every bit of the crosses and the robes. And he wears all of the regalia, not only the deep blood red mozzetta that goes over the white papal vestments. And he's got red leather shoes, which is kind of a. No, real Benedict xvi, who also had these leather papal shoes. The picture of the Church there is just kind of aesthetic playground full of kind of cynical bureaucrats. And it's kind of almost like a rotting institution. And it takes a touch of psychopathy to bring it back into some sort of. It's definitely pre. Whatever we're talking about. It is not the respected church.

[Nomi Frye]

It's pre the Francis revolution.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, it's just.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's a Pope who rules with a firm Hand. An iron fist, I would say. I mean, I think the through line here or the big thing, also about the young pope. And I'm sorry to sound like an absolute broken record, but it's about power. And I think Sorrentino is kind of reveling in this, just like the kind of weird love of corruption, honestly. And, yeah, Sorrentino, an Italian, has a deep and I think complicated based on his other work relationship with the Catholic Church. And that's definitely part of it. The wealth of it, the sheer wealth of it in this world. That's a thing. You know, one more thing that is worth talking about, I think, is the Two Popes, a movie from 2019 that is all about this stuff. It's all about the direction of the church. What direction will the church take? And unlike what we're talking about, it is allegedly based in fact. I mean, it's trying to present itself as based in fact. It is about the relationship between Pope Benedict XVI as he prepares to resign the papacy, and his eventual successor at the time, Cardinal Jorge Berliolo from Argentina, who becomes, of course, Pope Francis. And it's just. First of all, it's like. It's a buddy comedy.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We know, all of us, in the.

[Paul Ely]

Past, whenever a pope or Holy Father would eat at every meal, always at his side would be three Jesuit brothers, and they were his food tasters. I think the lack of Jesuits has.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Probably poisoned more than one Holy Father. Perhaps I should take a bite out of your slice, huh? Just to be on the safe side. No, that's mine. That's my pizza. Would you say grace only for. Yes, yes.

[Alex Schwartz]

They eat pizza together. They drink Fanta together. They argue about whether God can change. You know, they do all this. They're having it out. And that movie is very much about. I think. And I think it's fairly obvious, I guess it's not like this is a brilliant insight, but it's very much about the anxiety around the direction of the church felt on both sides. Can the church. What would it mean to remain the same for the church? What would it mean to. To not change? And what would it mean to radically change? The other interesting thing going on in this movie that I do think is another through line here, and it definitely comes up in conclave, is the question about personal connection to God. One thing going on with Pope Benedict in two popes is that he feels that God's voice has become quiet for him. And I think that's another framing. You know, can these infallible people be fallible Those of us not bound by the religion itself would say, yes, indeed, of course.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

But the interest for depiction around it and what's moving is watching people go through it themselves, go through a crisis of faith themselves.

[Vincent Cunningham]

In a minute, we talk about that crisis of faith on a grand scale. Critics at large from the New Yorkers will be right back.

[Nomi Frye]

Hi, I'm Chloe mel, editor of Vogue.com and I'm Chairmanardi, head of editorial content at British Vogue. Our show the Run through takes you behind the scenes at Vogue. Yes. With two episodes every week. You'll find out what's really happening inside the world of fashion and culture. Every Tuesday, hear from Nicole Phelps, global director of Vogue Runway and Vogue business, as she discusses the latest fashion news and speaks to designers and industry leaders that Vogue editors can't stop talking about.

[Alex Schwartz]

There's so much shakeups happening in fashion. I'm curious what you think of this moment. Ooh, I am here with Marc Jacobs. Longevity is something we talk about a lot. It's not easy to achieve. How does it feel this moment?

[Nomi Frye]

I have so much to say on this subject. And on Thursday, you'll hear from the two of us, Chloe Marle and Cho Minardi, as we share our thoughts on fashion through the lens of culture, from.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The Oscars to the Met gala, plus.

[Nomi Frye]

Conversations with the biggest stars right now.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Tyler, congratulations on your first Vogue cover.

[Paul Ely]

Thank you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, my God.

[Nomi Frye]

Join us to get your bi weekly fashion and culture news.

[Alex Schwartz]

Listen.

[Nomi Frye]

Listen to the Run through with Vogue every Tuesday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Vincent Cunningham]

This is kind of a big question, but do you feel like people around you that you either in your lives are just kind of observing them from the perch of culture? Do you feel like people care more about religion than they used to in the recent past? I guess.

[Nomi Frye]

Well, I mean, certainly what we've seen these past couple of weeks with Francis's death and the selection of the new pope and the great excitement and attention paid to it by people that I wouldn't necessarily have pegged as much in any sense religious or interested even in the church or would suggest that, yes, I mean, there is like an interest in religion and a need, at least on the pop cultural level to think of something like a new pope as a unifying moment. And I've been reading around this a little bit, not just about Catholicism, but just in general. It appears that the decline in church attendance that I believe has been happening since, like, at least the 90s has this year been halted, if not, you know, totally reversed. And there was a very interesting factoid in a poll. A study from Pew taken this year has found that Almost all Americans, 92% of adults, said that they hold some form of spiritual belief in a God, human souls or spirits, an afterlife or something, quote, unquote, beyond the natural world.

[Alex Schwartz]

What's the percentage say again?

[Nomi Frye]

92. It's high, which is very high. And, you know, I think there could be many potential reasons why this is so. I mean, this is something, again, that we talk about a lot on this podcast, about the kind of general collapse that we are experiencing. A belief in institutions, whether they be political or educational, scientific fracturing of a kind of monocultural understanding of what our world is. And so it would make sense, I think, that under such circumstances, a unifying sense of some sort of belief is taking place.

[Alex Schwartz]

This is such an interesting question. It is such a huge question. I don't think I can give, like, I'm glad Nomi brought some actual numbers here, because if you want to just go on impressions, I mean, the country you live in is so awash in religion, and religion touches every aspect of life. And so I don't know if people care more than they used to, you know, But I'm not trying to skirt the question, but let me put it. Let me just put it for myself at least a little bit differently. I think that some of the excitement around the conclave, around Robert Prevost, now Pope Leo, has to do with what religion might be able to do that, what religious leaders might be able to do that other leaders are not doing. And we do live in a time of megalomaniacal leaders who are, frankly leading us to disaster. And I think what we all really want, those of us who are Catholic, those of us who are non Catholic, I mean, I know I'm speaking really generally, clearly, many people don't want this, but what many of us want is a sense of leadership that is actually moral at the base. And I think that's why Pope Francis had so many admirers who were not Catholic and why people like me were able to get really excited and why it was so moving. Not just moving, but actually crazily radical. To hear Pope Leo, in his first address, begin with the idea of peace and have his first benediction be peace be with all of you. I mean, we're living in a time where to call for, for instance, a ceasefire in Gaza to end the slaughter in Gaza can still be seen as a controversial act. And so to have the Pope come and speak to this, not just about Gaza, but about War and violence all over the world. But to have him speak to this in a really clear and clarifying way and say, enough. I think we really are all lacking clear, coherent leadership. And actually it's a huge opportunity for the Catholic Church. Like there is a vacuum out there.

[Nomi Frye]

We need a strong leader, as I.

[Alex Schwartz]

Often say, as Nomi often says. And we also, as the movie Conclave says, need a leader with doubt and humility. It's a very interesting opportunity, to say the least.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Also, we've just had so many cataclysms, the pandemic wars. I think these are times when people ask questions that are basic. What is a person and how should we act? And religion has centuries of answers to that. They're one of many entities that purport to say, I know what's going on.

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, Vincent, let's be real. You have much more knowledge of the situation than Naomi or I do. Is this Pope likely to be in the model of Francis? People are saying he's a centrist. What does that mean?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's very difficult to know. On the one hand, he was elevated to the place where he could potentially be Pope by Francis. His past statements indicate, by the way, as did Francis, that he still adheres to the teaching of the Catholic Church, to me, a regrettable teaching about the nature of marriage. He's against same sex marriage and he does not foresee letting women serve as deacons or other sort of sacramental duties of the Church. So you can't really map the politics of the Catholic Church onto American style, left, right, center politics, largely because Catholicism so radically predates American politics. But it seems that Leo, one of his biggest emphases is going to be peace. In another early address, he talked about ending the Russia's aggression in Ukraine. He called for a ceasefire in Gaza. So he obviously is very, as all Catholics should be, very anti war. I do also have one reason that this could be happening. I think it does. There's increased interest. I'm not saying that people are devoted to religions, but one of Leo's first addresses was to the College of Cardinals and he talked about, in brief, Leo xiii, old guy, long dead, wrote a letter called Rerum Novarum of the New Things, and it was about the Industrial Revolution and what the relationship between labor and capital ought to be like, very pro union, et cetera, et cetera. And Leo, the new Leo, very astutely pointed out, like, there's a new industrial revolution and one of the big things is artificial intelligence.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And so we need a voice to reconsider these big questions of human dignity labor sort of put forward a positive anthropology in face of again, our sort of overlords who seem to have a very anti human perspective. So it's hard to tell and it's impossible. This guy's been pope for a week. But the signs are hopeful. And speaking of hope, I don't know, reasons to hope attract attention and I think that's part of the thing that we're trying to untie.

[Nomi Frye]

We need something to live for.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, that's right.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Speaking of papal possibilities, who should play Pope Leo XIV in a biopic? Do we have casting? I feel like it's sort of John Leguizamo. No, no.

[Nomi Frye]

It sort of brings to mind maybe like Michael Shannon or someone a bit cracked. You say a bit cracked, a bit over it all.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Uh huh.

[Alex Schwartz]

Vincent, do you have someone?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I don't know, Leo. I mean, obviously this racial thing is.

[Alex Schwartz]

Gonna be like doing phrenology on a podcast. I know, it's so complex.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think the Usher.

[Nomi Frye]

Raymond.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Usher Raymond. I was thinking more John Turturro, but okay, yes, right.

[Alex Schwartz]

In the ambiguous. We have to go to the ambiguous category.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We just. This has been Critics at Large Papal Edition. Big thanks to our guest this episode, Paul Ely. Remember, you can follow all his writing about the new Pope and much else by heading to newyorker.com our senior producer is Rhiannon Corby and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Conde Nast's head of Global audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrado composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Yost with mixing by Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] Critics next week, as funding cuts put its future into question, we're doing a deep dive on one of the most beloved children's programs of all time, Sesame Street. You're not going to miss that. Don't miss it. Don't be ridiculous. We all have bad days and sometimes bad weeks and maybe even bad years. But the good news is we don't have to figure out life all alone. I'm comedian Chris Duffy, host of ted's how to Be a Better Human podcast.

[Alex Schwartz]

And our show is about the little.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Ways that you can improve your life. Actual practical tips that you can put into place that will make your day to day better.

[Alex Schwartz]

Whether it is setting boundaries at work.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Or rethinking how you clean your house. Each episode has conversations with experts who share tips on how to navigate life's ups and downs.

[Alex Schwartz]

Find how to be a better human.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wherever.

[Nomi Frye]

You're listening to this from prx.