The Hall of Fame—and of Shame—of Oscars Hosts

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker

Episode: The Hall of Fame—and of Shame—of Oscars Hosts
Date: March 5, 2026
Hosts: Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Fry, Alexandra Schwartz
Guest: Michael Shulman

---

Episode Overview

This lively episode of Critics at Large dives deep into Oscar season, focusing less on the nominees and more on the role of Oscars hosts—their triumphs, disasters, and the “delicate art” of guiding Hollywood’s biggest night. The regular crew is joined by New Yorker staff writer and Oscar expert Michael Shulman for a spirited discussion that covers the current awards landscape, what makes a host great (or terrible), and how hosting at the Oscars intertwines with broader trends in entertainment, comedy, and culture.

---

Main Topics & Insights

1. Oscar Season and Pre-Ceremony Buzz

• Oscar as Cultural Respite: In turbulent times, the hosts joke about clinging to the Oscars for levity and obsession, previewing their own live Oscars blog.
  “We don't have much. Let's concentrate on the good—shelter in the storm.” – Naomi Fry (04:39)
• This Year's Oscar Races: Michael Shulman highlights the Best Actor category as especially unpredictable, noting wide-open possibilities and rooting “for chaos.”
  “I would not be shocked by any of the five names being read... I root for chaos.” – Michael Shulman (07:04-08:28)
• Notable Films: Discussion centers on contenders such as Marty Supreme, One Battle After Another, Sinners, and The Secret Agent. They celebrate a return of “mid-range” adult movies that are both critical and box-office successes.

Key Insight

• The Oscars are at an “inflection point” both in terms of studio politics (with Warner Bros. about to be absorbed by Paramount/Skydance) and in their alignment with popular taste.
  “Warner Brothers is about to be a subsidiary of Paramount. So good luck.” – Michael Shulman (11:33)

2. The Art and Agony of Hosting the Oscars

• Why Hosting is So Hard: The hosts and Shulman debate why the gig is “notoriously tricky.” In short: the host must be both an insider and outsider, roasting the room while maintaining goodwill.
  “It is a fine needle to thread, my friends.” – Naomi Fry (04:45)
• Last Year’s Host – Conan O’Brien: Widely agreed he killed it, with Shulman describing the mood as “everyone was really happy... brought a lot of joy and silliness to the role.”
  “He killed in the room, as I think he did on television.” – Michael Shulman (20:59) Notable moment: O’Brien’s playful song about not making the show too long, while making it longer (21:59).
• The Double Challenge: Hosting is “two jobs”—commanding the room and captivating TV viewers. It’s rare that someone can do both at once.
  “There's really no way to bomb in the room and survive on television.” – Vincent Cunningham (23:54)
• Famous Flops: The Anne Hathaway/James Franco pairing is dissected as a case of mismatch—his apathy and her try-hard energy.
  “The excruciating combo of each of those non hosts hosting together to me is hard to rival.” – Alexandra Schwartz (25:24)
• Iconic Bomb – Letterman’s “Uma, Oprah”: “A sort of cringy moment” but with a cult following.
  “See, I still think that's funny.” – Vincent Cunningham (26:40)
• Unified Theory of Oscar Hosting:
  • The host must straddle insider/outsider status to roast with love, not malice.
  • Too much distance (Letterman) or disrespect (Jo Koy at the Globes) spells disaster.
    • “You have to be part of the industry, and... the movies and the Oscars...while also not being too in it, that you can't be irreverent.” – Michael Shulman (26:52)

Memorable Segment

• Ricky Gervais at the Golden Globes (2020): Referenced as ultimate “outsider” roast, nearly blowing up the format with brutal, meta humor about Hollywood hypocrisy.
  • “If ISIS started a streaming service, you'd call your agent, wouldn't you?... Come up, accept your little award, thank your agent and your God, and fuck off.” – Ricky Gervais (played by Michael Shulman, 31:08)

3. Brief History of the Oscars Host (32:02+)

• The Bob Hope Era: Defined Oscar hosting for decades, 19 times between 1940-1978. Known for groan-worthy, timely zingers.
  • “Bob Hope is the real transformative figure... hosted on and off 19 times.” – Michael Shulman (32:28)
• Johnny Carson: “Unifying pop culture figure” in a fractured America, mid-80s.
• The Infamous 1989 Ceremony: No host, just an epically bad opening number with Rob Lowe and “Snow White”—became legendary for how terrible it was.
  • “This ruined this producer's life. Alan Carr...was like an Icarus figure.” – Michael Shulman (35:28, 35:47)
• Billy Crystal (1990s): Seen as the true modern host, mixing musical parody, warmth, and sharpness—an “outsider-insider” who connected with the audience and stars alike.
  • “Nobody did it better than Billy Crystal... the master of ceremonies.” – Michael Shulman and Naomi Fry (37:33, 37:35)
• Whoopi Goldberg: Praised for her theatricality and asserting her own brand of humor.
• The “Selfie” Era: Ellen DeGeneres’s famous viral selfie (2014) marked the Oscar’s embrace of social media culture.
• Memorable Mishaps: The “slap” (Chris Rock/Will Smith) and other memorable presenting/roasting moments, such as Chris Rock’s Magic Johnson Theater bit, highlighting the Oscars' cultural gaps.
  • “He's always gonna be my favorite because... people still had to respect him and knew what he was up to.” – Vincent Cunningham (40:47)

4. The Evolving Host in Modern Culture

• Rise of the Podcast Host & Intimate Media:

  • The role of “host” is broadening in the age of podcasts and streaming, with intimacy and parasocial relationships shaping what audiences want.
  • “We're headed back into a kind of radio age... The host has again become the podcast host.” – Vincent Cunningham (43:29)

• What We Want Now:

  • A blend of coziness and edge—the host must include viewers, make them feel “inside”, but still roast with love and wit.
  • Nikki Glaser’s Success: Noted for vulnerability, outsider-insider vibes, and ability to roast without malice.
    • “She has this combination of... roasty, gives no fucks... but there's something kind of vulnerable about her.” – Naomi Fry (47:00-48:30)
  • Modern hosts like Conan and Glaser get it right by being “responsive to how people feel at a given time,” marrying self-awareness and authenticity.
    • “I think we want somebody who's actually responsive to how people feel at a given time.” – Vincent Cunningham (49:49)

• The Point of the Ceremony:

  • It’s an inherently “absurd” spectacle and needs a host who acknowledges the ridiculousness while celebrating the magic.
    • “There's something inherently ridiculous and sort of gross about it. And so you need someone to, like, acknowledge that and take the piss out.” – Michael Shulman (51:00)
    • “[Oscars] only have the value... they're only important to the extent that we will clap for them and believe in them.” – Michael Shulman (51:45)

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the burden of hosting:
  • “It is a fine needle to thread, my friends.” – Naomi Fry (04:45)
• On unpredictability of this year’s Best Actor:
  • “I root for chaos.” – Michael Shulman (08:28)
• On Conan O’Brien’s Oscar debut:
  • “He killed in the room, as I think he did on television.” – Michael Shulman (20:59)
• On the Anne Hathaway/James Franco debacle:
  • “The excruciating combo of each of those non hosts hosting together to me is hard to rival.” – Alexandra Schwartz (25:24)
• On what makes a great Oscar host:
  • “You have to be part of the industry...also not too in it, that you can’t be irreverent.” – Michael Shulman (26:52)
• On Bob Hope’s legacy:
  • “Bob Hope is the real transformative figure... he was a square, you know.” – Michael Shulman (32:28, 34:01)
• On Oscars as “Tinkerbell”:
  • “They’re only important to the extent that we will clap for them and believe in them.” – Michael Shulman (51:45)
• On the essential function of the host:
  • “We want somebody to kind of give that, replicate that, like give that back to us.” – Vincent Cunningham (49:49)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Topic/Highlight | Timestamp | |---------|----------------|-----------| | Introduction & Oscars anticipation | Humor & live blog mention | 01:41-04:14 | | The unpredictable Best Actor race | “I root for chaos.” – Shulman | 07:04-08:28 | | Discussion of Oscar-nominated films & studio politics | “Good luck to us all.” – Shulman | 10:03-11:36 | | History/meaning of the slate of Oscar nominees | Shulman’s Oscars history insight | 17:33-19:19 | | The hosting “needle to thread” | Traits of a great host | 04:45-05:05, 22:23-24:51 | | Conan O'Brien’s hosting performance | “He killed in the room...” | 20:58-22:23 | | Notorious hosting disasters | Anne Hathaway/James Franco, Letterman’s “Oprah-Uma” | 24:51-26:48 | | Michael Shulman’s “Unified Theory of Oscar Hosting” | Insider/outsider, love & roast balance | 26:52-28:36 | | Ricky Gervais at the 2020 Golden Globes | Brutal roast excerpt | 31:08 | | Brief History of Oscar Hosting | Bob Hope through Billy Crystal | 32:02-39:22 | | Ellen’s viral selfie, memorable Oscars incidents | Oscars embracing pop culture | 39:39-40:00 | | The modern host, intimacy in hosting | Podcasts, cultural shifts | 43:29-44:39 | | Nikki Glaser as a model modern host | Blending vulnerability and roast | 47:00-48:51 | | What we want from Oscars hosts today | Contextual, responsive, audience-involved | 49:01-51:45 |

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of Critics at Large is a must-listen for anyone interested in both the Oscars’ inner workings and the peculiar, pivotal role of the host. With wit, deep knowledge, and an eye on both history and the present, the critics map the complex dance of pleasing audiences, stoking controversy, and celebrating cinema—all from the lonely, glittering podium at center stage.

Transcript

[Alex Schwartz]

Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive. So they set out to change that.

[Nomi Fry]

By designing glasses in house and selling

[Alex Schwartz]

directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate. And they start at just $95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you. Confession time. I've never had a brand new mattress hand me downs stoop sales. I've spent my whole life sleeping in

[Nomi Fry]

secondhand beds, so you can imagine what

[Alex Schwartz]

a revelation it's been to sleep on my new mattress. From Leesa.

[Nomi Fry]

I got the Sapira hybrid model.

[Alex Schwartz]

And what a game changer.

[Nomi Fry]

High airflow foam with a soft breathable cover.

[Alex Schwartz]

Medium firm with just the right amount of bounce.

[Nomi Fry]

Tailored to my sleep preferences in a

[Alex Schwartz]

way that makes me genuinely excited to

[Nomi Fry]

go to bed at night.

[Alex Schwartz]

The entire Leesa lineup is gorgeous.

[Nomi Fry]

They have an option for everybody, no matter how you roll sleepwise. Whether you like soft or firm, cool or cozy, Leesa has a mattress perfect for you.

[Alex Schwartz]

And Leesa's about more than sleep.

[Nomi Fry]

They're about impact. They donate thousands of mattresses every year to those in need, while also partnering with organizations like CleanHub to remove harmful plastic waste from our oceans.

[Alex Schwartz]

That definitely helps me sleep easier. Go to leesa.com for 20% off mattresses, plus get an extra $50 off with promo code newyorker exclusive for my listeners.

[Nomi Fry]

That's L E-E-S A.com promo code newyorker for 20% off mattresses, plus an extra $50 off.

[Alex Schwartz]

Support our show and let them know

[Nomi Fry]

we sent you after checkout Lisa.com promo code New Yorker. This is Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Nomi Fry.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I'm Alex Schwartz. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Hello, hello, hello. Hello, friends.

[Michael Shulman]

Hello.

[Alex Schwartz]

So, guys, the world is not doing well. There are a great number of stressful things happening right now. We don't know what tomorrow will bring, quite literally, but we do know what March 15th will bring, too.

[Vincent Cunningham]

True.

[Alex Schwartz]

The 98th Academy Awards.

[Nomi Fry]

Wow.

[Alex Schwartz]

Can you imagine anything more important and momentous than that?

[Nomi Fry]

Listen, we don't have much. Let's concentrate on the good shelter in the storm.

[Alex Schwartz]

That's true. We're absolutely clinging to the Oscars right now to provide us with any bit of levity. And we have been deep in prep mode in part because we are hosting, the three of us, the live blog of the Oscars on newyorker.com so before you go any further, let's just say join us for that. We got jokes. We got pithy commentary.

[Nomi Fry]

We're gonna be tap, tap, tapping on that keyboard late into the night, ready

[Vincent Cunningham]

to accompany you on your couch or situation of choice.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. If you need to set the scene in your mind, please imagine a very elegant, large conference table in a room with absolutely hideous lighting. It's us. It's a group of very dedicated fact checkers, web producers, photo editors getting it all there so that you can follow along and watch with your three friends. Us.

[Nomi Fry]

Us.

[Alex Schwartz]

Please, please do. We do actually drink champagne.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's true.

[Nomi Fry]

We do drink some champagne in plastic cups.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, that's true. And more as the night goes on, obviously. So it's. It might be worth sticking around to the very end.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. Who knows what we'll say?

[Alex Schwartz]

Exactly. So in any case, the Oscars is also the topic of our show today. We're talking about the big races. We're making some predictions, all the good stuff, and we are honing in on a very specific piece of award show pageantry. The host hosting the Oscars is a notoriously tricky thing. Not a lot of people actually want to do it because it's really hard to get right. And we want to know what makes a good Oscars host. What do you guys think? What do you want to see?

[Nomi Fry]

I want the funny, funny sort of

[Vincent Cunningham]

in on a joke that includes all of us, the audience, but also the audience in the room. They're kind of an intermediary. That, to me, is like, the big thing.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I agree it's hard to strike that note because it is. And we'll talk about this, but I feel like more recently, it's been a bit of a roast job, speaking through the figures and the celebrities in the room to those of us beyond it. And I think straddling that line between making fun in a funny way, in an uncomfortable way is a key.

[Nomi Fry]

And it is a fine needle to thread, my friends.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes, it is indeed. So today, we hosts are talking about hosting the biggest hits and misses of Oscars hosts across the years and about why this role is famously difficult. And, you know, hosting isn't just a gig. It's a vocation.

[Nomi Fry]

We know this. Critics at large, Oscar hosts win.

[Alex Schwartz]

There you go. Sign us three up. The host of the Oscars and host general. It's a figure that sets to the entertainment landscape on tv, on podcasts. What I want to talk with you guys today about is what this delicate art of hosting actually is and how it's changing alongside new currents in entertainment, comedy and yes, in our politics. And thrillingly, we are going to be joined by our official Oscars correspondent, friend of the pod, Michael Shulman, who quite literally wrote the book on the Oscars. Woo. Hooray for Michael. Yeah, so that's today on critics at large, the hall of fame and of shame of Oscars hosts. Okay, like I said, we have a very dear guest today. And honestly, I don't know anyone more read up on the Oscars than he is. He is the Oscars to me. Michael Shulman is a staff writer at the New Yorker. His book Oscar wars is an extremely fun, very deliciously readable history of the Academy Awards. Welcome, Michael.

[Michael Shulman]

Why, thank you for having me again.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Pleasure to be here.

[Nomi Fry]

Hey, Michael, good to see you.

[Alex Schwartz]

What a treat.

[Nomi Fry]

It's always a fun day. It's just the season critics at large HQ when Michael stops to give us a piece of his mind.

[Michael Shulman]

You know what? It's been a long winter, but I decided a couple years ago not to observe winter anymore. I have replaced it with Oscar season.

[Alex Schwartz]

And when does it officially begin?

[Michael Shulman]

In like December, when it starts getting really cold.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm like, well, it's Oscar season.

[Michael Shulman]

It's Oscar season again.

[Nomi Fry]

There's snow. There's a chance of snow. It's Oscar season.

[Alex Schwartz]

That is it. So I wanna hear from all of us, of course. But Michael, let's start with you. Speaking of Oscar season, which is what we're here to talk about, what stood out to you in the lead up to this year's ceremony? Are there certain things that you've been watching in particular, I would say the

[Michael Shulman]

category I'm most interested in is best actor. This year. I'm usually more of a best actress person, or let's be honest, best supporting actress person.

[Nomi Fry]

I love that.

[Michael Shulman]

But yeah, that's really like my go to category. But best actor this year is really interesting. It's really wide open. I would not be shocked by any of the five names being read when they open the envelope. I mean, conventional wisdom has been that it's Timothee Chalamet's to lose for Marty supreme, but I don't know. I mean, just this past Sunday, Michael B. Jordan won the actor award formerly known as the SAG Award.

[Nomi Fry]

What's up with that, by the way?

[Michael Shulman]

Rebrand why not?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

And then Wagner Mora from the Secret Agent also won a Golden Globe in a separate category than Chalamet. And yet you have Leonardo DiCaprio who is no slouch in like the movie that is considered the front runner for Best Picture one battle after another. And then Ethan Hawke is just so beloved in Blue Moon that if he somehow pulled it off and won, I also wouldn't be completely shocked. So it's a really fascinating category that is just so stacked and I really feel like anything could happen. So I have no prediction for that whatsoever, which is how I like it. I root for chaos.

[Alex Schwartz]

Rooting for chaos is the surest way to entertainment. I will be shocked if Ethan Hawke wins, not because of the nature of the performance, but just because I think that is by far the least favored choice in that category and the smallest movie in the category.

[Nomi Fry]

A real dark horse, if you will.

[Alex Schwartz]

Exactly. I mean it could be very exciting.

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah. And the other kind of narrative that I've been really fascinated by is that it sort of has come down to a two way race between one battle after another and Sinners. And those movies have a lot of overlap weirdly. Like this is not a sort of moonlight versus La La Land situation where they are extremely different movies. These are both big hits directed by kind of mid career auteurs who have not won an Oscar. And they both, you know, they both sort of talk about white supremacy, but through a sort of populist genre, whether it's vampires or the sort of like paranoid thriller action flick. They both are led by huge stars who are nominated by best actor and they're both from Warner Brothers, a studio that has had this incredible year of releasing these like original beloved movies that are blockbusters as well as Oscar favorites. And yet this is a studio that is about to be gobbled up by probably Paramount, Skydance, and it's sort of like Last Hurrah. Like this studio will probably triumph at sort of the last moment before it gets zombified into something else.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, and also this is not only an interesting inflection point for the movie business, as you say, these movies that are both commercial successes but also kind of critical darlings. But it does seem like a ratification of the Oscars recent structural changes to its own nominating processes. Right. Like the lasting complaint was always like, I've never heard of any of these movies. And all of a sudden most of the movies that are being discussed most foremost, like everybody has seen them.

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah. I feel like it's a function of just there Happened to have been a number of movies this year that were both box office hits and original kind of grown up movies. A few years ago, I felt like there was this real divide between the sort of the tentpole movies that were like Marvel, Star wars, whatever, and then the little movies like the Nomadlands and Codas and, you know, Anoras that would then be nominated, Moonlights and people would complain, oh, I haven't seen any of these movies, which first of all, like, I don't know, watch them, they're good. But also it seemed like, you know, for a while the studios had been neglecting the sort of mid range movie like dramas, adult comedies, rom coms, and that traditionally the kind of movie that kind of glued the Oscars together with popular taste. And I don't know, maybe there's some hope in that coming back. But again, when people point to Sinners and one battle after another as a sign of hope for Hollywood, I'm like, okay, well, good luck because Warner Brothers is about to be a subsidiary of Paramount. So good luck.

[Nomi Fry]

Good luck to us all. Good luck to us all. Michael. And has there been anything that surprised you in the nominations for the Academy Awards?

[Michael Shulman]

A couple, yeah. I mean, obviously the big story of the nominations was that Sinners beat the record for most nominations per movie. Yeah, it got 16, which is actually, they beat the record by two because the next most were All About Eve, Titanic and La La land all got 14 nominations. So sinners really All About Eve.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, my God, my eyes. I'm getting misty.

[Michael Shulman]

One of the best, the best movie that's ever been made.

[Alex Schwartz]

But you don't think La La Land is the best movie that's ever been made.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, you said like the consensus best movie. You were like La La Land and All About Eve got announced.

[Alex Schwartz]

They go hand in hand to me.

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah. And part of how it beat that record was that it would. One of those 16 nominations is in a brand new category, Best casting, which is new this year. And so that's gonna be interesting to watch. You know, like, I feel like the whole academy and sort of the public that's paying attention to the Oscars is getting a bit of a crash course in what cast, what a casting director does. I mean, I have to say, like, for me, it's hands down Marty supreme just by virtue of having cast Noemi Fry.

[Nomi Fry]

Beautiful cast. Thank you. No, but I do think, apart from the fact that Jen Vendetti, who is nominated for best casting and who cast Marty supreme as well as many other beloved, kind of usually Slightly utre movies, other Safdie movies in the past. Euphoria. You know, she does a lot of street casting, casting of unknowns, non actors. It's very much focused on kind of like the faces. Oh, the humanity, you know, Which I think especially as, you know, Hollywood people begin to look more and more like each other every day, especially the women. Is kind of a feat to say, this is what people look like.

[Alex Schwartz]

I totally agree, Nomi. I recently saw the Secret Agent, which is such a great movie. And it did strike me, I think there is a kind of simpatico attitude between the casting director of the Secret Agent and of Marty supreme in terms of looking for people who look like people, who don't look Hollywood, who don't look polished, who represent just humanity. And it's all its weird beauty. And so I loved the casting of both of those movies. Nomi and Vincent, are there races that you have a dog in?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, speaking of the Secret Agent, I really hope it wins the Best Picture. Cause it's my favorite movie.

[Alex Schwartz]

I kind of do too.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And the sort of the hegemony of one battle after another, it's weird. Like one battle after another has soured in my memory since I saw it. I don't. I just. I don't know. The certainty around it does not match my feeling. Sinners I found fun, but it hasn't sort of continued to live in my head in the way that the Secret Agent does. So I'm really excited to see if it can gather some steam. Michael, you wrote a great piece about how sort of, among other things, the Secret Agent has turned on the sort of Brazilian fandom and made it manifest here in the States in a way that introduced a new element into our understanding of what an awards race looks like.

[Michael Shulman]

Oh, yeah. Brazil is keyed in to the Oscars, let me tell you.

[Nomi Fry]

Come to Brazil.

[Michael Shulman]

They are paying attention. They are in it.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. To me, the most recent films I've seen in the Best Picture category are Sentimental Value and the Secret Agent. And so maybe it's because they're freshest in my mind, but the fact that they're nominated for Best Picture is so exciting to me. These are two, I think, of all the movies, and this is a grandiose statement that may not hold up, but of all the movies that are likely really to remain as classics, I think those two are at the very top from this year. And there are others that I think will be watched for a long time. Definitely Marty Supreme, One Battle After Another and Sinners. But I agree with you vincent those movies in particular, One Battle after Another and Sinners have really faded for me. But one thing I really do love about the Secret Agent, it really was a connective glue between a lot of movies that I both liked and loved this year. One battle after another. For sure. Both of these movies are about guys who are running from an evil figure backed by the government, a kind of shadowy figure representing political authority and force who's quite literally coming to kill them. But also films that aren't on the Oscars list. I really love the Mastermind by Kelly Reichart and also set in the 70s, in the American 70s, but it really made me think of that again, this kind of loner man and his position to society at a time of political upheaval. And if you stick out only for yourself, if you stick up only for yourself, or if you really are part of a collective. And it also made me think of the very small and very beautiful film by Ira Sachs, Peter Hujar's Day, which is not an overtly political movie, but it is about the act of recovering through documents and a kind of ingenious idea in the moment to document the present and the future. Recovery of the documentation, in that case of One day in the life of the photographer Peter Hujar. And in the Secret Agent, there also is this emphasis on how we look in the present, at the documentation of the past. I just liked it as a glue for all these different ideas coming to us through cinema this year. So I'm big on that movie right now.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's true. And, you know, Sinners, if you could. There are many potential themes that you could sort of embroider from the movies that are sort of foremost in our minds. But this emphasis on memory and its many possible permutations and perversions, et cetera, is I think, one of the stronger themes that runs through a lot of the stuff.

[Michael Shulman]

You know, when I was working on Oscar wars and going through 100 years of Oscar history and focusing on particular years, it's always so interesting to me how way in hindsight you'll see how the slate of Oscar nominees does reflect the times and the politics and what Hollywood is going through, but in a kind of indirect way. I mean, just to throw out an example, the best Picture race in 1976 was One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, Dog Day Afternoon, Barry Lyndon, Nashville and Jaws.

[Nomi Fry]

I like that. It's like five incredible bangers.

[Michael Shulman]

That to me is the best line of Oscar history. But they're all kind of. They share certain similarities. I mean, they're anti authoritarian movies. Like, they came out, you know, in the heat of the Watergate scandal, and yet they're not about Nixon in the way that, you know, all the President's Men would be. But they have something. I mean, you know, Once over the Cuckoo's Nest is about like this corrupt authority figure, as is the, you know, the mayor in Jaws. And there's a. And, you know, Nashville's about sort of America looking forward to the bicentennial and something being kind of off, you know. And then I think the presence of Jaws also signals how the new Hollywood of the 70s was about to end and become the new blockbuster era of Jaws and Star wars, et cetera. So that's how I try to read, you know, any given Oscar year. It's not gonna tell you exactly what's going on in Hollywood or in the country, but it's gonna reflect something kind of simmering under the surface. And that's what I think makes them so interesting.

[Alex Schwartz]

When we're back, our favorite hits and misses of Oscars Hosts, without giving it away, can you please tease yours, Michael?

[Michael Shulman]

It's a wonderful night for Oscar. We'll get there.

[Alex Schwartz]

This is critics at large from the New Yorker. I'm Shilpa Uskokovic. And I'm Jesse Sevcyk. And we're the hosts of the Bon Appetit Bake Club podcast. Bake Club is Bon Appetit's community of confident, curious bakers.

[Michael Shulman]

Jesse and I love to bake. Some might even call us obsessive.

[Alex Schwartz]

And we love to talk about all the hows and whys and what didn't

[Nomi Fry]

works that come with it.

[Alex Schwartz]

Every month we publish a recipe on bon appetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll bake. Send us any questions you have, and we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. So consider this your official invitation. Come join the Ba Bake Club.

[Michael Shulman]

New episodes on the first Tuesday of

[Alex Schwartz]

every month are wherever you get your podcasts. Happy baking. We have been talking about the Oscars race, soon to be decided. So let's turn now to this figure of the host at the Oscars. Conan o' Brien hosted for the first time last year. And he's at it again. We were all in the room except for Michael, but the three of us were in the room watching Conan last year. What did you guys think of the performance?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, Michael was in the room watching.

[Michael Shulman]

I was in the balcony, he was in the auditorium.

[Alex Schwartz]

True. So, Michael, what was it like in

[Vincent Cunningham]

the room, as he will be again.

[Michael Shulman]

This will tell us.

[Nomi Fry]

In his tuxedo.

[Michael Shulman]

That's right. No, I mean he killed in the room, as I think he did on television. Everyone was really happy, you know, it's a hard job and to find someone who really nailed it like Conan and brought a lot of joy and silliness to the role. People were pleased. A complete unknown.

[Alex Schwartz]

A real,

[Michael Shulman]

A real pain. No Sfaratu. These are just some of the names I was called on the red carpet.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, I think a sense of relief is like something that I at least experienced. It's like, okay, this is a person with real comedic chops. It was his first time hosting, but he knows the job. He knows he's had many years to hone the role of being a host. He knows how to hold a room. And he's a showman too, you know, he sang a song about like not wanting to make the ceremony too long, while of course making the ceremony longer.

[Michael Shulman]

I won't waste time he won't waste time I won't waste time he won't waste time. There's 23 awards to give its all time to perfection. To waste time on some idiocy would be a dereliction. I won't waste time.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, just like fun and fun. He's smart. He's just smart.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. And also, I mean, I think it's also just like a popularity contest, you know?

[Nomi Fry]

What do you mean?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It has to be somebody that everybody kind of likes and respects and therefore gets away with some of the. You can't just be a blind Tiresias, you know, ruining the mood of everybody in the Greek play. Like, you gotta kinda be charisma.

[Nomi Fry]

It's called charisma.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You gotta be kind of a prom king. And Conan is in the middle of a sort of reappreciation cycle. I mean, last year, shortly after he hosted the Oscars, he was also. The Mark Twain Prize in comedy was bestowed upon him at the Kennedy Center. His peers are in a moment too, of saying, wow, what a career.

[Michael Shulman]

And also there was a kind of revenge factor because he was so unceremoniously booted from the Tonight show after a very short stint and just got completely screwed over. And then he was on TBS and now he's got a podcast. So the fact that he had returned to broadcast television in this major role and killed it, I think was satisfying.

[Alex Schwartz]

This brings me to something I want to ask all of you, which is, we keep saying this is a notoriously difficult gig. What makes this such a hard job? It seems like it would be pretty easy, just kind of like tell some jokes. There are some rich famous celebrities in the room. You make a little fun of them, but in a kind of fun way, and then you move right along. But we all know that sometimes this really bombs. What makes it so hard?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I kind of think it's hard because it's actually two jobs. Actors talk all the time about how a stage performance is different than a television performance is different than a movie performance. That one acts differently for the camera than one does for the stage. And here we have somebody who's being asked to do both. And weirdly, the success of one, the televisual has as its precondition success in the room. They're feeling what's working on the. But also kind of experiencing this channel of connection with the host. So it's really that part of it seems to me difficult. There's really no way to bomb in the room and survive on television. Like for instance, Letterman was really good at doing that on his late night TV show. There is something like that that can happen in a different kind of venue, but here it's like, no, no, no. You have to succeed that both all the time.

[Alex Schwartz]

Are there any moments that have crystallized for you what a great host is or isn't? I can't, you know. The specifics of the Anne Hathaway James Franco combo have mercifully faded from my mind. But the aura of it will never leave me. The kind of excruciating awkwardness of the James Franco I just don't care, like so entitled attitude. And I had forgotten that he was nominated that year. Here we are and it's Hollywood's biggest

[Michael Shulman]

night and it's very exciting for both of us because we're both nominated.

[Alex Schwartz]

Actually, James, I'm not nominated tonight.

[Michael Shulman]

Come on, Ann, don't be so modest.

[Alex Schwartz]

No, I'm not modest. I'm just not nominated. He almost seemed to want to screw the whole ceremony up and just slack his way through it. And then the Anne Hathaway real try hard, like I'm here to shine energy. And the excruciating combo of each of those non hosts hosting together to me is hard to rival. What about you guys?

[Michael Shulman]

One moment that's really burned in my mind from growing up in the 90s, watching the Oscars as a sort of cringy moment is Letterman coming out in 1995. And starting with the Oprah Uma bit.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oprah, Uma, uma oprah. I feel much better.

[Michael Shulman]

Have you kids met Keanu

[Vincent Cunningham]

See, I still think that's funny.

[Alex Schwartz]

Sorry, but you're the only one I know.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I love it.

[Michael Shulman]

Would now be a good time for me to float my unified theory of Oscar hosting?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. I mean, don't sit on that. We need it now.

[Nomi Fry]

Don't hold back.

[Michael Shulman]

I have been thinking about this for too long. I think the trick of it is that you have to be equal parts insider and outsider because you have to be part of the industry, and you have to have people in the room have to trust you enough that when you tell when you're roasting them, they know it's coming from a good place. And that you basically have reverence for the movies and the Oscars as the ceremony while also not being too in it, that you can't be irreverent, take the piss out of it. Make fun of the movies. Make fun of, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio sitting in the front row. And then, like, if you're too outside, I think that's when you get, like, a Letterman who really doesn't have a sort of love of Hollywood in his bones. He's all irreverence if you're coming at it. And you don't seem to care about the movies or about this ridiculous thing called the Oscars, or if you're just not part of the industry, jumping to the Golden Globes for a second. The comedian Jo Koy super bombed a couple years ago. The key moment in Barbie is when she goes from perfect beauty to bad breath, cellulite, and flat feet, or what casting directors call character actor. Some I wrote. Some Other people wrote, Robert De Niro's here. Yo, I got the gig 10 days ago. You want a perfect monologue?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yo, shut up.

[Michael Shulman]

He came out and he started out by saying, like, none of you know who I am, which was kind of true. And so once he starts cracking jokes about these movie stars, like, who are you to say this about me?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. How dare he?

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah, basically.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, that was the. I'm ventriloquizing the room.

[Michael Shulman]

Whereas Nikki Glaser came in and people in the room. It was clear, kind of no one loved Nikki Glaser. So she could go hard on, like, Leonardo DiCaprio having, like, young girlfriends. And it didn't seem like, who are. Why are you attacking me? Who are you? Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

What a career you've had. I mean, countless iconic performances. You've worked with every great director. You've won three Golden Globes, an Oscar. And the most impressive thing is that you were able to accomplish all of that before your girlfriend turned 30.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, it's just insane.

[Alex Schwartz]

Liam, I'm sorry.

[Nomi Fry]

Made that joke.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's cheap. You know what? I tried not to, but, like, we

[Nomi Fry]

don't know anything else about you, man.

[Alex Schwartz]

Like, there's nothing else. Like, open up. I also watched the recent Nikki Glaser hosting of the Golden Globes, her second time doing it. And you're getting really in the faces of these people to see essentially if they can take a joke. And a lot of her jokes were low key and actually kind of cute. There's one about George Clooney where she asks if he can help her with her nespresso problem. There's maybe my personal favorite to the Rock saying, it's lucky that the paper wasn't nominated. Ha ha. That's not a personal joke, obviously. And you sort of see the Rock take a second to get it, which is also a whole thing. And then there are some harder hitting ones. But it's Michael, I think that's exactly right, that it's about that insider, outsider aspect. You are the court jester. So are you really wanting to be vizier to the king, or are you okay in that jester role? And someone like Nikki Glaser is okay in the jester role. The most famous example of it to me is Ricky Gervais just going in and trying to slaughter everybody at the Golden Globes in 2020 when he made a point of having a beer with him on the podium and emphasizing that this was his fifth and final time hosting the Golden Globes and did not hold back.

[Michael Shulman]

Apple roared into the TV game with a morning show. A superb drama. Yeah, a superb drama about the importance of dignity and doing the right thing made by a company that runs sweatshops in China. So, well, you say you're woke, but the companies you work for, I mean, unbelievable. Apple, Amazon, Disney. If ISIS started a streaming service, you'd call your agent, wouldn't you? So if you do win an award tonight, don't use it as a platform to make a political speech.

[Alex Schwartz]

Right.

[Michael Shulman]

You're in no position to lecture the police public about anything. You know nothing about the real world. Most of you spent less time in school than Greta Thunberg. So if you win, right, come up, accept your little award, thank your agent and your God, and fuck off.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

Very much worth rewatching. There are Epstein jokes in there. Ricky goes hard, and I do think it's about reading the room, the mood of the room, and then also the culture at large. What do we want to see in these interactions with are celebrities. Let's do a little history. Michael, we want you to take us back. We want you to give us a history of the notable moments in Oscars hosting history. Do you feel up to it?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sure.

[Alex Schwartz]

Can you take us there?

[Michael Shulman]

Sure.

[Alex Schwartz]

Great.

[Nomi Fry]

What if he's like, no, no, no.

[Alex Schwartz]

Then frankly, we all go home. We all go home. We release a little episode. That's it.

[Michael Shulman]

Okay, here is a brief history of the Oscar host. So the oscars started in 1929. For the first decade of the Oscars, they would be emceed mostly by whoever was the academy president, like Douglas Fairbanks or Frank Capra, who was the major figure in the 30s. Sometimes it would be humorous. Shout out to Bob Bazooka Burns, host of the 1938 Oscars.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What a great nickname.

[Michael Shulman]

Bob Hope is the real transformative figure. He arrives in 1940 and he hosted on and off 19 times going through 1978.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, that's crazy.

[Alex Schwartz]

That is crazy.

[Michael Shulman]

And he, you know, he was a figure. He'd come out of vaudeville and radio. He was sort of of show business, but like a little bit of a showman outside of it as well. I brought in some of his. Some of his one liners over the years. I love how these date. And yet you, like, you still see the format that exists today. So I warn you, these are some real groaners. All right, let's see. 1941. How about these Secret ballots? This was the first year of secret ballots. Columnists have exerted every trick to discover the winners beforehand. And when the last envelope was sealed, Price Waterhouse had to open it again to let Sidney Skolski out.

[Alex Schwartz]

What does that mean? Was he a small man?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Who was Sidney Skolky?

[Michael Shulman]

He was a gossip columnist.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, there you go.

[Michael Shulman]

1942. How about that air raid Wednesday? That was no air raid. That was John Barrymore coming home from W.C. field's house.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wow.

[Nomi Fry]

O. Okay.

[Vincent Cunningham]

He's getting a little political. Oh, wait, wait.

[Michael Shulman]

Here's another good one. Okay, this was his last year, 1978. By now, this man is well into his 70s, he says, and not with the times.

[Nomi Fry]

Like, not with the times.

[Michael Shulman]

He says, I haven't seen so much expensive jewelry go by since I watched Sammy Davis Jr. S House Sliding down Coldwater Canyon.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay, that was good. NOMI approves.

[Michael Shulman]

So, you know, obviously, Bob Hope, you know, he sort of defined this role as it moved from radio to television and became a big show. But, you know, by the 70s, he was a nostalgic figure. He was a square, you know, he

[Alex Schwartz]

was a square Complete square man. Who comes after Bob Hope.

[Michael Shulman]

Finally, he's gone. 1979. Bob Hope has hosted his last ceremony. They bring in Johnny Carson, who then hosted five different years going into the 80s.

[Alex Schwartz]

Did he do well?

[Michael Shulman]

Yes, he's generally very well regarded as a host. You know, he was the man for the job. He was the sort of, you know, fractured time in America. He was the sort of unifying pop culture figure. Okay. A major Turning Point. Year 1989. There was no host that year. Instead, the producer Alan Carr stages an 11 minute epic opening number. You may recall this opening number because it has gone down in infamy featuring Rob Lowe singing with a woman dressed as Snow White. And they, among many other things, they do a rendition of Proud Mary in a replica of the Coconut Grove with dancing cocktail tables.

[Alex Schwartz]

This just doesn't sound thought out.

[Michael Shulman]

No, no.

[Nomi Fry]

It was widely considered a disaster.

[Michael Shulman]

Like the worst Oscars ever.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Used to work a lot for Walt

[Nomi Fry]

Disney, starring in cartoons every night and day.

[Michael Shulman]

But you said goodbye to Grumpy and sleepy Left the dwarves behind Came to town to stay we'd like to keep on burning. You know, this ruined this producer's life. Alan Carr, he really never worked again.

[Nomi Fry]

No.

[Michael Shulman]

You know, he had dreamt his whole life of producing the Oscars, and then he was like an Icarus figure.

[Nomi Fry]

It was a one and done situation.

[Alex Schwartz]

If you had spent your whole life dreaming of producing the Oscars and that's what you came out with, maybe you should be doing something else.

[Michael Shulman]

It was so bad that the Academy then formed a committee to study what had gone wrong.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Truth and reconciliation, Oscars style.

[Michael Shulman]

Okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

There was the time for that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Michael Shulman]

And the next year, 1990, it was a much more modernized ceremony. And the most significant change is that they brought in for the first time ever to host Billy Crystal. So he comes in in 1990, he steps out onto the stage. Is that for me or are you just glad I'm not Snow White? I thought we'd bring her out and

[Alex Schwartz]

do the lumber, the forbidden dance.

[Michael Shulman]

Then he went on to host nine times between that year and 2012. And he sort of traded off with Whoopi Goldberg a bunch of times throughout the 90s. To me, this was the height of Oscar hosting. Nobody did it better than Billy Crystal. I still remember very, very clearly the first time I ever watched the Academy Awards, which was when I was. It was 1993. I was 11. I'll never forget his Howard's End spoof, which was Hooray for Howard's End. Da da da da Da, da, da. And then he goes. And not an ounce of smut. It ain't called Howard's but they call it Howard's End. And not an ounce of smuts. It ain't called Howard's but they call it Howard's End. Now listen up. Every time I say something to you, you will repeat it back to me.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Are we clear?

[Nomi Fry]

He is the ultimate figure of like, okay, here is this, like, funny Jewish man. He is not like a heartthrob in any way. He's a little bit weird looking. And yet here he is in this room. He made it, and he's leading everyone by the nose, basically. You know, he's like the master of ceremonies. And kind of last year when Conan hosted for the first time, I was like, okay, I feel like this is kind of like his vibe for me was a bit of an heir to the Billy Crystal year, or at least I had the same sense.

[Michael Shulman]

Remember when he came on as Hannibal Lecter?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes, yes.

[Michael Shulman]

The year of the Silence of the Lambs. And then Whoopi came on as Queen Elizabeth. The year of Elizabeth and Shakespeare Love.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, right, yeah. Because Whoopi did a lot of hosting. Whoopi Goldberg did a lot of hosting in that time too.

[Michael Shulman]

She was great.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, she was great.

[Michael Shulman]

She says, I'm the African Queen.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Cause I think we're still laboring under this model, right, of the sort of showman, as you say, sort of in between figure, insider, outsider, who's funny but can create bon o mi, et cetera, but also is a kind of cabaret performer. And who was gonna bring this sort of triple threat of it all. Would you say that Billy Crystal's therefore the first modern host of the Oscars?

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah, I mean, I think he was the defining figure of that era in the way that Bob Hope had been. He sort of redefined the role, not change it completely because he is a kind of Bob Hope yuckster. But it didn't feel old fashioned.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

So when did the Billy era end and did a new era come come to replace it? I mean, Jimmy Kimmel is the one I remember hosting. Remember, it wasn't that long ago, but to me, he became 2020. It went on for an eternity. Jimmy Kimmel hosted for a bunch of years. We had to move on from the Billy era.

[Michael Shulman]

In between, there were a bunch of people. There was Steve Martin, there was Ellen DeGeneres, who of course did the famous selfie.

[Alex Schwartz]

Do you guys remember the selfie?

[Nomi Fry]

How could we forget the Ussy?

[Alex Schwartz]

And she took that big selfie of all the stars. And it became, I think, the most tweeted photo or something like that up till that time.

[Nomi Fry]

But guys, can we talk about the slap? Remember the slap?

[Alex Schwartz]

You probably should.

[Nomi Fry]

That was a big host moment when Chris Rock hosted.

[Michael Shulman]

And no, he was not hosting. He was presenting. He had hosted before.

[Nomi Fry]

He had hosted before2020.

[Vincent Cunningham]

He hosted in 2005 and had this great bit about going to Magic Johnson Theater on 125th street and asking moviegoers whether they had seen it. This was the year of Million Dollar Baby ray, et cetera. And nobody at Magic Johnson Theater famously, you know, like in this black neighborhood has seen anything except for maybe like, I think it was white chicks and saw. That's kind of correct. Did you see Sideways?

[Alex Schwartz]

No. No, I didn't.

[Michael Shulman]

No, I didn't. Did you see Finding Neverland?

[Alex Schwartz]

No. No.

[Michael Shulman]

Did you see Finding Neverland?

[Vincent Cunningham]

No.

[Michael Shulman]

Did you see Million Dollar Baby?

[Alex Schwartz]

Didn't see that.

[Michael Shulman]

No, I didn't. Did you see Million Dollar Baby?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It was really a funny, like, send up of like most people do not care about what's going on here. He's always gonna be my favorite because he was, for me, the great stand up comic of my youth and had a really less yuckster y way of sort of really sending the whole thing up but was such a big star as a comedian that people still had to respect him and knew what he was up to. So it is weird that then he comes back as presenter and is literally struck down for a joke that he made. One of the cruel ironies of the job.

[Alex Schwartz]

In a minute. What do we want from a host Today, Critics at large from the New Yorker will be right back. Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, global director of Vogue Runway and Vogue business and host of the run through podcast every Tuesday. Join me for the latest fashion news like the shakeups of Balenciaga and Dior and what's trending in Paris and Milan. You'll also hear interviews with top designers from Marc Jacobs and Rick Owens to Daniel Roseberry, Sarah Burton and many more. On Thursdays, Chloe Maul, editor of Vogue.com and Choma Nadi, head of editorial content at British Vogue, take you behind the scenes at Vogue and share their thoughts on fashion through the lens of culture. You'll hear interviews with some of your favorite stars like Julianne Moore, Pharrell Williams and celebrity stylist Law Roach. Join us to get your fashion and culture news twice a week. Listen to the run through with Vogue every Tuesday and Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts, We've been talking about the Oscars hosts. Hosts over the years. Hosts who have screwed up spectacularly, hosts who have pulled it off with aplomb. We get a sense of what makes a good Oscars host in general. And I want us to broaden out a little bit because the host is, of course, a wider figure in the culture. You know, I was thinking about someone like Letterman. He hosts the Oscars. It's a totally different platform. It's a different way of relating to the public. But then he goes back and hosts his own late night show. And now, of course, a host can mean many different things. Aside from that, many hosts, hello. Live in your ears frequently and. Or on your screens as podcasters, whatever it might be. So the host is really a part of cultural life, I think, in a very prominent way, differently than it has been in the past. Do we have a unified theory of what we want from the host today, or can we collectively work towards one?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, I think this is so interesting because of what Michael said earlier about the origins of Bob Hope on radio. And it does seem to me what you just alluded to, Alex, is like, we're headed back into a kind of radio age. The host has again become the podcast host. Even as we said Conan, in a certain way. This is his return to big, glitzy network TV after being a podcast host for many years. Some of the techniques, the sort of strange parasocial relationship that is formed under that sort of oral intimacy, I think is so much now what we think of with the host. I think we're returning to an age where we really want somebody who's kind of sitting right next to us, somebody with whom we have a relationship. And I do think that that is slowly changing. What we mean by host. We don't want someone otherworldly or totally apart. That there is a kind of intimacy that comes with that position. It can be for ill. I don't think anybody wants Joe Rogan to be hosting the Oscars, but I do think there are.

[Nomi Fry]

Maybe some people do. A lot of people do, probably.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, good point. Maybe they do.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I do think that, you know, as that change, like these larger changes, all of a sudden podcasts are on Netflix. I do think that this thing is becoming very liquid.

[Nomi Fry]

Mm, no, that makes sense. And I think, Vincent, what you're saying about the host, that we want someone who is like, that we listen to, that's in our ears, right? More than we want someone removed. I think that has always been kind of the case. I think with Oscars host like that is, you know, the thing I said about Billy Crystal where watching it, I was like, hey, I'm up there. I mean, I know I'm not like an older Jewish man, but like, the

[Alex Schwartz]

idea of in your soul you might be.

[Nomi Fry]

In my soul, I am. It's not like some glamour, you know, some like, super glamorous figure. It's like our own avatar up there in a sense.

[Alex Schwartz]

One thing that does occur to me is I think in the modern culture of hosting, I'm specifically thinking of podcasts, there is really a cozy relationship between celebrity guests and the host. It happens on Rogan. It definitely happens on Good Hang with Amy Poehler, which of course is super, super popular. And there's a sense of insideriness that nonetheless includes the audience. But I do think that people are clearly responding to and very positively. Cause these shows are really, really popular. The sense that they can just be a fly on the wall during a celebrity conversation, that both has an aura of realness to it. Like, oh, these people are friends, they're hanging out, they're casually talking. It's not in the way that it is. When a professional interviewer meets with an interview subject who they don't know personally. It is cozy, it's friendly. I feel like we're all hanging. But of course, anything that's super awkward or unapproved is not gonna be mentioned, because that's not the point. The point is not to catch anyone out or make anyone feel uncomfortable or put their feet to the fire or even roast them as happens on an Oscar show. I think that we still want our zingers to hit, but I wonder if this will change because in general, we are in this very, very cozy celebrity moment.

[Nomi Fry]

I think, like, it's interesting to me, like someone like Nikki Glaser, who we mentioned before, who hosted the Globes very successfully, there is something about her presence. One thing I like about Nikki Glaser is that she has this combination of, like, obviously a very self assured roasty, kind of like, gives no fucks will say what she wants to say kind of vibe to her personality. But in another way, there's something kind of vulnerable about her. You could tell that she is coming from the outside and that she's excited to be there. You could tell that she's like a little bit nervous, but that doesn't keep her from holding the feet to the fire. And I feel like watching her, I was like, okay, like, where has this been? Maybe the fact that she's a woman too, and usually we do have a man. I Mean, I mean, there have been, of course, women Oscar hosts, Ellen Whoopi, you know, all that. But it's mostly a man. And recently it's mostly been a man. But I was like, huh. I feel like this might be a way forward and kind of splitting the difference between, like, oh, we're all like, BFFs here, and we're just gonna talk about how great we all are or whatever, and kind of like, I'm gonna ask you, like, horrible questions that you're not prepared to answer. I'm gonna, you know, roast you so terribly that you're gonna, like, crawl out on your hands and knees.

[Alex Schwartz]

Totally. I thought Nikki Glaser did a really good job, too. And it was notable to me that at the end of each roast she did, she really went at Kevin Hart for being short, for example, among other things. She also did mention him. Not, you know, she would say something like, but I love you so much. You know? I love you so much. I'm so, so sorry.

[Michael Shulman]

Yeah. She warms it over. She warms it over smiling still.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. As she moves on. And so she's really keeping it copacetic with the people in the room.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

And she did straddle that line between being brutal and being funny and friendly. I think maybe my favorite joke of hers was the last joke where she. She thanked Steve Martin and Martin Short for being there and proving to people that no matter how much success you've had, you still need more money in Hollywood. And they were laughing and they liked it. So. Yeah. Do you guys want more of that, or would you ever wanna go back to Ricky Gervais at the 2020 Golden Globes, who is so acidic and aggressive that the camera keeps cutting to the horrified celebrities in the audience, including, at least very memorably, to me, Tom Hanks, who is just grimacing. Grimacing throughout. Do you want more discomfort or are you happy with a situation where we get to have our cake and eat it too, where we get to have our laughs and move on?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, I think it totally matters when it is and what time we're talking about. I think we want somebody who's actually responsive to how people feel at a given time, whether it's just about the movies or about the politics of the moment or about the way that the sort of, I don't know, like, elite class from which these people come are sort of behaving in the rest of the culture. I think all of this stuff matters, or we keep assigning it meaning because for whatever reason, people still on a Mass level love movies. Cinema is still something that brings people together to say something really corny. But what we do with movies and with works of art that are popular in nature is we talk about them with our friends. They create discourse. They create a kind of weather system around them. And we want somebody to kind of give that, like replicate that, like give that back to us. And so it depends, I think it depends totally on the mood of like how we want that person to be or show up. But I do think that we want to know that however this person is is not just like a preordained decision, like what the industry wants the person to be like, but that they are on some level being responsive to a mood that we all feel.

[Michael Shulman]

It occurs to me too that all, you know, America's watching and they know that these are rich, glamorous, beautiful people being celebrated. There's something inherently ridiculous and sort of gross about it. And so you need someone to like, acknowledge that and take the piss out. Cause it's not, it's like as much as the Oscars hold themselves up as this, like, vaunted, important, you know, traditional, you know, they're all so absurd. That's why I love them.

[Alex Schwartz]

And so is Buckingham Palace.

[Michael Shulman]

And so is Buckingham. Exactly. It's like these things only have the value in them is only they're like Tinkerbell. It's like they're only important to the extent that we will clap for them and believe in them.

[Alex Schwartz]

Quite right. This has been Critics at Large. Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Kutchman. Alexis Quadrato composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Yost. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] critics. We will see you next week.

[Michael Shulman]

Hi, this is Mark Guducci from Vanity fair on Sunday, March 15th. Join us as we take you inside the 98th annual Academy Awards with live coverage from the red carpet, inside the auditorium and backstage. And right after the ceremony, you can tune into the livestream of the Vanity Fair Oscar party where Quinlan Blackwell, Brittany Broski and Jake Shane will be co hosting live from the red carpet. This is my first year hosting the Vanity Fair Oscar party and I'd love you to join us to see what happens on Hollywood's biggest night. Tune in immediately after the Academy Awards on March 15 at 10:30pm Eastern, 7:30pm Pacific on vanity fair.com.

[Nomi Fry]

From prx.