The Modern-Day Fight for Ancient Rome

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker

Episode Title: The Modern-Day Fight for Ancient Rome
Release Date: December 5, 2024

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Introduction

In the recent episode of Critics at Large titled The Modern-Day Fight for Ancient Rome, The New Yorker's staff writers Naomi Fry, Alexandra Schwartz, and Vincent Kanye delve deep into the enduring legacy of the Roman Empire in contemporary culture and politics. Through a lively and analytical discussion, they explore the resurgence of Roman themes in modern media, the implications of these representations, and the broader societal reflections they provoke.

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Gladiator 2: A Renaissance of Ancient Rome

Vincent Kanye initiates the conversation by highlighting his recent fascination with the Roman Empire, spurred by the release of Gladiator 2. He notes, "Stories about ancient Rome and more broadly the classical world have an interesting hold on our culture" (02:23).

Naomi Fry reminisces about her childhood favorite, the 1976 series I, Claudius, emphasizing the timeless allure of Roman narratives. She shares, "I grew up hearing stories at my grandfather's knee. He used to talk about the dream that was Rome. It was so fragile, you could only whisper it or it would vanish" (13:08).

The trio provides a synopsis of Gladiator 2, discussing its plot centered around Lucius Hano (played by Paul Mescal), a young man from Numidia fighting against the Roman Empire. They critique the film's portrayal of decadence and corruption within Rome, contrasting it with the original Gladiator film's themes of honor and revenge. Alex Schwartz bluntly states, "I didn't like it. And I say this because I love Gladiator, right? Gladiator to me, is pure cinema" (07:40).

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Comparative Analysis: Gladiator vs. Gladiator 2

The discussion pivots to a comparative analysis of Gladiator (2000) and its sequel. Vincent Kanye expresses a preference for the original, appreciating its depth and emotional resonance. He remarks, "Gladiator 1 is pure cinema" (07:40).

In contrast, Alex Schwartz criticizes Gladiator 2 for its emphasis on spectacle over substance. She elaborates, "In this movie, I didn't feel that Lucius had anything really interesting going for him. It's like, yes, his wife dies... and then later, this whole other story about how he's the rightful leader of Rome. It's not canon that Lucius is Maximus' son. I don't believe it" (15:04).

The hosts discuss the thematic shifts between the two films, noting that while the original focused on personal vengeance and the restoration of a noble Rome, the sequel delves into brutality and decadence without a strong moral center. Naomi Fry adds, "I think that Gladiator 2 is a more honest movie in its complete corruption... It's in tune with the times and more honest about its impulses in ways the first movie was not" (22:35).

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Ancient Rome in Modern Media

The conversation broadens to encompass various representations of ancient Rome in media. Alex Schwartz praises A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (1966) for its comedic take on Roman satire, highlighting its departure from the serious portrayals of the empire. She states, "It makes fun of the entire Rome thing in a way that just really tickles me" (26:13).

Naomi Fry reminisces about I, Claudius, emphasizing its intricate schemes and powerful female characters, contrasting them with the spectacle-driven narratives of modern films. She notes, "It's about intricate schemes, especially schemes by women. Women being as powerful as men and in some ways more powerful because they have to wield their power subtly" (23:57).

Vincent Kanye brings up Ben Hur (1959) as another pivotal representation, discussing its themes of leadership and power. He observes, "What Ben Hur shares with Gladiator is the idea of Rome... it's about the meaning of leadership, who gets to lead, and by what right" (29:12).

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The Political Resonance of Ancient Rome

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to exploring how ancient Rome's imagery and themes have permeated modern politics, often in problematic ways. Vincent Kanye raises concerns about the appropriation of Roman symbols by white supremacist and nationalist groups. He mentions, "There's a lot of increasingly noxious white supremacist, white nationalist rhetoric... the notion of the Roman Empire is part of our cultural heritage that maybe something like multiculturalism wants to erase" (31:18).

Alex Schwartz supports this by citing the use of Roman symbols in events like the Charlottesville rally, pointing out the blatant references to Roman aesthetics by groups like Identity Europa. She states, "There was this direct identification between the alt-right and Rome. Identity Europa... not making such a secret of where it's taking its inspiration" (32:53).

Naomi Fry touches on the classical education movement championed by figures like Ron DeSantis, critiquing its romanticized portrayal of Rome. She reflects, "The idea that men were men and they were white and they told women what to do and that was fine with everyone... the force of a rational male who will rule us all doesn't sound that great" (33:32).

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Cultural Reflection and Self-Understanding

The hosts discuss how the portrayal of Rome serves as a mirror for contemporary society, reflecting both its aspirations and flaws. Alex Schwartz emphasizes the importance of reinterpreting classical narratives to avoid the pitfalls of blind imitation:

"When you see yourself reflected [in Rome], it should scare you straight. It scares me" (43:02).

Naomi Fry echoes this sentiment, highlighting how Rome's legacy can be both inspirational and cautionary:

"Rome has been a fixture in our art, especially our popular art. But lately, it's also become a fixture in our politics as well" (31:18).

The discussion underscores the duality of Rome's legacy—its representation as both a model of governance and a symbol of imperialistic domination, depending on the contemporary lens through which it is viewed.

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Conclusion: The Enduring Allure of Rome

In wrapping up the episode, Alex Schwartz advocates for fresh interpretations of classical civilizations to maintain their relevance and to prevent their misuse:

"Make ancient Rome strange again. Take away the analogies. It can be in ways that are really simple" (40:02).

Vincent Kanye concurs, reflecting on the cyclical nature of history and its impact on current societal structures:

"I've been wondering why... we find ourselves doing it [returning to Roman templates]. Maybe why is it sort of this positive against, like, a reluctance to instead create new stories or something like that?" (42:44).

Naomi Fry adds a personal touch, questioning whether America’s present moment uniquely suits these reflections on empire:

"I think that America right now is a particular point that does lend itself to think specifically about Empire." (41:38).

The episode concludes with the trio acknowledging the complex relationship modern society has with its classical past, emphasizing the need for critical engagement rather than unrestrained homage.

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Notable Quotes

• Alex Schwartz (07:40): "I didn't like it. And I say this because I love Gladiator, right? Gladiator to me, is pure cinema."

• Vincent Kanye (15:01): "This is why you don't like it."

• Naomi Fry (22:35): "I think that Gladiator 2 is a more honest movie in its complete corruption... It's in tune with the times and more honest about its impulses in ways the first movie was not."

• Alex Schwartz (26:13): "It makes fun of the entire Rome thing in a way that just really tickles me."

• Vincent Kanye (31:18): "There's a lot of increasingly noxious white supremacist, white nationalist rhetoric... the notion of the Roman Empire is part of our cultural heritage that maybe something like multiculturalism wants to erase."

• Naomi Fry (33:32): "The idea that men were men and they were white and they told women what to do and that was fine with everyone... the force of a rational male who will rule us all doesn't sound that great."

• Alex Schwartz (43:02): "When you see yourself reflected [in Rome], it should scare you straight. It scares me."

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Final Thoughts

Critics at Large effectively navigates the intricate web of ancient Rome's portrayal in modern media and its unintended repercussions in today's political climate. By juxtaposing cinematic narratives with real-world implications, Naomi Fry, Alexandra Schwartz, and Vincent Kanye provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of why Rome continues to captivate and influence contemporary society. The episode serves as a poignant reminder of the responsibilities that come with historical representation and the necessity for mindful engagement with our cultural heritage.

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For more episodes and insights, visit Critics at Large by The New Yorker.

Transcript

[Nomi Fry]

Hi, it's Chloe Mel. I'm the editor of Vogue.com and co host of the Run through with Vogue. And in case you haven't heard, Vogue just launched our all new app. Through the app you can chat with me and other editors on everything happening in fashion, Shop editor favorites and vote on the best looks of the season. Get real time updates now so you never miss a moment. Download the Vogue app today. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Woodup offers sleek Scandinavian designed wood slat acoustic panels that look as good as they sound.

[Vincent Kanye]

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[Nomi Fry]

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[Vincent Kanye]

How often do you think in your regular life? Just every day, you know, every day, you know, on a rolling basis. How often do you think about the Roman Empire?

[Nomi Fry]

I must admit that I think about it not at all.

[Alex Schwartz]

Zero for Nomi.

[Nomi Fry]

Zilch.

[Vincent Kanye]

Zilch.

[Nomi Fry]

But I can be made to think.

[Vincent Kanye]

Of it right when it's time. It's time.

[Alex Schwartz]

And it's time.

[Nomi Fry]

It is time, my friend.

[Alex Schwartz]

And it's time right now.

[Nomi Fry]

Welcome to Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Nomi Fry.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm Alex Schwartz.

[Vincent Kanye]

And I'm Vincent Kanye. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Now I'll say. I've recently been thinking about the Roman Empire a lot because over the break I. And we did see Gladiator 2.

[Nomi Fry]

I remember that day. I never forgot it. That a slave could take revenge against an emperor.

[Vincent Kanye]

Where were you born?

[Nomi Fry]

I don't know. I never knew a mother.

[Vincent Kanye]

What were some of the highlights in it? I call sharks. I need. I need the sharks. And the blood in the water. That is weirdly, in the coliseum.

[Nomi Fry]

Monkey. More than one kind of monkey.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes.

[Nomi Fry]

You know, one type very menacing, the other a bit ridiculous. And also nominated as a consul by one of the emperors.

[Vincent Kanye]

Good point, good point.

[Alex Schwartz]

That's true. There was A tiny monkey nominated as consul. Oh, my goodness. Sea battles, sieges, enormous projectiles, flaming projectiles being simply thrown over a walled city.

[Nomi Fry]

Like so many meatballs.

[Alex Schwartz]

Exactly.

[Vincent Kanye]

Or like the flaming acorn, something. It was weird.

[Alex Schwartz]

Hand to hand combat. Heads just being sliced off by not one, but two swords.

[Vincent Kanye]

That's right. That's right. It all happened in Gladiator 2. If you can imagine it, it happened in that movie. And as a result, perhaps this movie has been huge. It's one of the first big holiday releases of the year. It's doing really well at the box office. And maybe because it's picking up on the original Gladiator, maybe just because, of course, of the classical setting, it has me thinking about this interesting hold, really, that stories about ancient Rome and maybe more broadly just the classical world have over our culture. Do you guys have favorite ancient Rome movies?

[Nomi Fry]

For me, I was, as a child, I was an avid watcher of I, Claudius, the 1976 series.

[Alex Schwartz]

This puts the Emperor's life in danger.

[Nomi Fry]

The moment you relinquish your power, you're a dead man.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'll tell you what was big for me. The 1966 movie of the musical A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, starring Zero Mostel as a lying but lovable slave who wishes to buy his freedom.

[Vincent Kanye]

Because I'm a family slave. What's the good of belonging to a family if you're going to be executed by strangers? Also, the broad category of religious epic, especially stuff that's set in the New Testament, is also set in Rome, like by definition. So then I was thinking about the 1988 Scorsese film the Last Temptation of Christ.

[Nomi Fry]

Right.

[Vincent Kanye]

When you were making crosses for the.

[Alex Schwartz]

Romans and Nazareth, your head was exploding.

[Vincent Kanye]

With dreams of power. Power over everyone. You said it was God, but you really want the power. Now you can have what you want. And how like the sort of Roman occupying force in the background of that movie and other movies, like, it sort of is maybe like a kind of photo negative of what we see in Gladiator 2.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, I mean, that makes me think of, you know, one of my beloved tween texts, Life of Brian. The Monty Python. The Monty Python movie.

[Vincent Kanye]

You need to follow me.

[Alex Schwartz]

You don't need to follow anybody.

[Vincent Kanye]

You've got to think for yourselves.

[Alex Schwartz]

You're all individuals.

[Vincent Kanye]

Yes, we're all individuals.

[Nomi Fry]

Which similarly, you know, takes. Takes place.

[Vincent Kanye]

That's right.

[Nomi Fry]

During the Life of Brian. Much like Jesus.

[Vincent Kanye]

Much like Jesus Christ.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, much like Jesus Christ.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, I'm thinking of a little indie Picture called Cleopatra.

[Vincent Kanye]

Spartacus.

[Alex Schwartz]

Spartacus.

[Vincent Kanye]

Kubrick. I want to talk to you guys about the Charlton Heston film Ben Hur, which I just watched for the first time recently, and it just, like, keeps blowing my mind. The Roman attire is really part of the thing. Just like the robes come in beautiful robes, little skirts. So what we're going to do this week is talk about Gladiator 2, but also more broadly, the way that the Roman Empire shows up in the culture over and and over and over again, not just in our entertainment, but also in our politics in a lot of strange and sometimes very unsettling ways. So the big question I have is what all of the trappings of ancient Rome, the horses, the chariots, the robes and the goblets of wine, are still doing for us today. So that's today on Critics at large, Gladiator 2 and the fight for ancient Rome. Okay, so just to get going, let's start with the Ridley Scott film Gladiator 2. It's directed and produced by Ridley Scott, the absolutely bonker script written by David Scarpa, starring Paul. Get this. Paul Mezcal and Pedro Pascal, Joseph Quinn, Connie Nielsen and the just terrific Denzel Washington. Is there anything about this film that you would just like to get off of your chest right now in posts, Please.

[Alex Schwartz]

I didn't like it.

[Nomi Fry]

Wow.

[Alex Schwartz]

I didn't like it. And I say this because I love Gladiator, right?

[Nomi Fry]

You famously love Gladiator.

[Alex Schwartz]

Gladiator to me, is pure cinema.

[Vincent Kanye]

It's very good.

[Nomi Fry]

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the armies of the north, general of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to.

[Vincent Kanye]

The true emperor Marcus Aurelius, father to.

[Alex Schwartz]

A murdered son, husband to a murdered.

[Vincent Kanye]

Wife, and I will have my vengeance.

[Nomi Fry]

In this life or the next. Okay, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna surprise you. Or perhaps not surprise you. I'm gonna flip the script.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm already surprised.

[Nomi Fry]

And I'm gonna say I had never watched Gladiator. And of course, I had to watch Gladiator 1 before going to the theater to watch Gladiator 2. It took me three nights to watch Gladiator. The first, because I kept falling asleep. The first night I fell asleep at the second night, I fell asleep at the two hour mark. And then the third night, I finished the last half hour. The second Gladiator, which I did go to see in a theater I found kind of stupider, but in that sense, more interesting. And so I think I enjoyed it more. And we can talk a little bit more, you know, later. About that, but I just want to get that off my chest.

[Alex Schwartz]

Should we talk about it or should we fight to the death about it?

[Vincent Kanye]

We should. I think that you guys should go off, get some weird ball and chain and spike devices.

[Alex Schwartz]

Sounds good.

[Vincent Kanye]

And maybe kill each other. I don't know. That sounds good for the gratification of the crowd.

[Nomi Fry]

Are you not entertained, Vincent?

[Vincent Kanye]

Are you not? Is this how Rome treats its citizens? I. Weirdly. Even though they are part of the same franchise. My observation was I do like two a little bit less than one, but not as much less as you seem to, Alex. They're two different genres. They're films of two very different kinds. And it's weird because, of course, Gladiator 1 is a Ridley Scott film, as is Gladiator 2, but I feel like Ridley Scott didn't know what the first one was about or something like that. Like, he kind of like. Or maybe he just wanted to make a different kind of movie. I don't know. He wanted to make, like, the Black Panther of Gladiators. It's just a totally different kind of movie that has, like. It's more like based on set pieces and it has a different relationship to our point, like, to the present. Gladiator 2 takes off 16 years after Gladiator 1 ends. The Emperor who is Marcus Aurelius is dead. And, you know, obviously, Maximus. Russell Crowe. Sorry to spoil Gladiator 1 for you. Also dead. And we open on a young boy from the sort of.

[Alex Schwartz]

Or.

[Vincent Kanye]

Or like a young man, I guess, played by Paul Mescal, who is, like, fighting against the Roman Empire. He's from, like. It's not specified where he's really he's from, but he's, like, from a multicultural.

[Nomi Fry]

It's Numidia.

[Vincent Kanye]

Numidia, Sorry.

[Nomi Fry]

Numidia, I believe.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, he's very much from Numidia.

[Vincent Kanye]

He's from Numidia.

[Alex Schwartz]

But he's a foreigner in Numidia.

[Vincent Kanye]

He is a.

[Nomi Fry]

He is not of Numidia.

[Vincent Kanye]

A foreigner of. Unknown for long, you know, unknown provenance. And it opens on a battle against Rome, Rome, led by the great general. What's his name?

[Nomi Fry]

Pedro Pascal.

[Vincent Kanye]

Pedro Pascal, which is so implausible casting. I'm sorry. They lose to Rome and he is taken as a slave by Denzel Washington, basically. And he has to be a gladiator. And the movie is sort of his trying to get back, much like the structure of Gladiator 1. It's like a sort of revenge epic. After that, he's trying to work his way into the Hearts of the crowd so that he can exact revenge on the Roman general who killed many of his friends, including his wife. Along the way, he has many discoveries of his own identity and a sort of plot of palace intrigue of trying to depose these twin emperors. These guys are monsters. Monsters. And also sort of like, obviously like sort of inbred and stupid perhaps, but also like there's a homoeroticism happening between with the two of these guys. And so we see this play itself out. Is that a worthy synopsis of this film?

[Nomi Fry]

Yes. I will just add that the Paul Mescal character.

[Alex Schwartz]

Acacious.

[Nomi Fry]

Acacious.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, no, no, I'm getting the Mescal's and the Paul's gonna be Pascal.

[Nomi Fry]

I know it's Mescal. It's Pascal.

[Vincent Kanye]

Can we just say about this kind of film, by the way, it's in the smallest way like reading a Russian novel in that you just will never remember the fucking names.

[Nomi Fry]

Definitely.

[Vincent Kanye]

It's just like for me, I can't get them.

[Alex Schwartz]

They're starting, but they're starting to. Okay, I think they're coming through the fog. Paul Mezcal is Lucius Hano.

[Nomi Fry]

Well, he's Lucius. He's Lucius.

[Vincent Kanye]

Spoiler alert.

[Alex Schwartz]

I know who can spoiler alert. That you can see from the very beginning stomping towards you like the rhino that carries in a rival gladiator to the Coliseum.

[Vincent Kanye]

He is the son of Maximus. It's not even a spoiler alert.

[Alex Schwartz]

He is the heir to the Roman throne.

[Nomi Fry]

Yes. I grew up hearing stories at my grandfather's knee. He used to talk the dream that was Rome. It was so fragile, you could only whisper it or it would vanish.

[Vincent Kanye]

So what was his dream?

[Nomi Fry]

A Rome where all could live under fair law and be protected. A Rome with the Senate, a realm of hope.

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, the picture of ancient Rome that this film shows is one where decadence has totally taken over and the society has no real. It has zero moral core. Everything is, you know, bread and circuses. And it's just about a state of total cultural collapse that's kind of disguised as the pinnacle of culture because it's a time of plenty. You know, there are banquets and they're feasting. Yes. They make a big show of having the gladiators brought in a cage through the outskirts of Rome where people are begging, you know, so they're kind of making these points about social inequality, things that really hit home today. And there is more in Gladiator 1. There's a sense of the wise ruler, Marcus Aurelius who wants to give over the empire into a republic. And this is what he charges Maximus to do. Upon his death, those plans are completely scuttled by Commodus, played by Joaquin Phoenix, his son, who instead takes over and seizes power. But there's this hint of things could go a different way. There is a noble, virtuous Rome that we could have around the corner. And in this version, that idea keeps coming up in the film, basically to give it a plot, but it's a. It's. It's. You know, it's like, no, the dream of Rome is dead, guys. It's dead. And that is part of the reason.

[Vincent Kanye]

This is why you don't like it.

[Alex Schwartz]

Why I don't like it? Well, there are a few reasons why I don't like it. Can I just.

[Nomi Fry]

Please, please.

[Alex Schwartz]

So in this movie, I didn't feel that Lucius, Paul Mescal's character, had anything really interesting going for him. It's like, yes, his wife dies, you know, slain by an arrow right at the start of the film. And that's kind of given as his motivation for getting revenge. And then later, this whole other story brought in about how he's the rightful leader of Rome. And also, it's not canon. I'm going to say this here, guys. It is not canon that Lucius is Maximus Son. I don't believe it. I don't buy it.

[Nomi Fry]

Do you mean historically, like.

[Alex Schwartz]

No, I mean in my vision of the movies.

[Vincent Kanye]

So, wait, so wait, what do you mean?

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, what do you mean? Well, all I mean is that I just felt they were heaping these things on to make us care, when actually the point of the movie is spectacle. And I'm okay with the point of the movie being spectacle. I just felt that it didn't really have a core and the decadence was the point. And I'm not saying I need Gladiator to have a moral core, but I need someone to root for.

[Vincent Kanye]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Vincent Kanye]

Gladiator 2 is just the latest entry in a long, long list of texts that give a picture of ancient Rome. So we'll get into those right after the break on Critics at Large. I'm investigative journalist and former Deputy Sheriff Scott Weinberg.

[Nomi Fry]

And I'm Anna Segan Nicolas, former New York City Homicide prosecutor.

[Vincent Kanye]

Each week on our podcast, Anatomy of Murder, we give you the inside perspective as we dissect the layers of each case. The victim, the crime, and the investigation.

[Nomi Fry]

You'll hear from victims, loved ones, and those actually involved in the journeys to justice.

[Vincent Kanye]

Because the heart of each of these Cases. And this podcast is.

[Nomi Fry]

People listen to Anatomy of Murder now wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Vincent Kanye]

So just picking up where Alex left off about this sort of the decadent picture that we get of the empire in the new Gladiator. It's interesting to look back to the first gladiator to sort of answer the question, because it's really interesting that this movie, the Gladiator one, comes out in 2000. It's the end of what we talk about as the Francis Fukuyama end of history. End of history in the same way, sort of Marcus Aurelius, the enlightened. The end of history. The enlightened emperor is dying, and his sort of favorite metaphorical son, Maximus, has just won this huge battle. And they have this discourse where basically the emperor says, you know, he's talking about, like, the sort of how the glory of Rome has so much blood implied in that glory. And Maximus says, you know, but there's nobody else to fight. You know, we did it all. And the emperor says, there's always something else to fight, you know, that Maximus is some way the. The disillusioned liberal subject par excellence. Like, he thinks that he's like Samantha Power or something. Like, he thinks that, like, you know, if you intervene over and over and you sort of. At some point, the old phrase like that you will achieve peace through strength. And it's like, no, that never happens. And so one answer to. And then we come to the sort of decadent, obviously sort of like maybe Trumpian view of bread and circuses. Yeah. One way to look at these movies is that they're really about. Even though they take place in these elite environments, the court, the emperor. It's really about being a member of. It's kind of about the masses. Right. Even though we never really meet regular people, it's really about how. How these elite figures think about the masses, what they think they want. Do they want death? Do they want an enlightened republic that's led by the Senate? Do they. What do they. What do the masses want? And how does that interact with just, like, the pressures of being. And this is why I think it matters for Americans with the pressures of living in the heart of an empire. Yeah. Like, how do you think of your everyday life when whatever the privileges and the struggles of that life are premised are sitting on top of a bunch of bones and blood? You know, if you're walking around in our country, you have to think about that every day.

[Alex Schwartz]

I totally agree. You know, it's so different to think Back to the US 24 years ago, about to invade Iraq, about to have this idea of, you know, they'll greet us with flowers. We're just here to spread democracy. You can definitely see a self understanding in the US of that time as reflected through, you know, perhaps historically warped ideas about Rome and Pax Romana. And in Gladiator 2 you are seeing this all from the perspective of the people soon to be conquered. It begins in Numidia where the Romans are about to come wreaking death and destruction. And so, you know, there are the subjects about to experience the hand of Rome. And what Marcus Aurelius realizes in the first movie that all of this is kind of for nothing. Why are we still fighting in the second film? Has become the Emperor's delight in entertainment. We're still fighting because we want to.

[Nomi Fry]

There are victories yet still to come.

[Vincent Kanye]

Persia, India, both must be conquered. Rome has so many subjects. She must feed them.

[Nomi Fry]

They can eat war. One of the reasons that I think I liked Gladiator 2 more is it seems to me, a more honest movie in its complete corruption. Like, I don't buy the kind of like moral value judgments of the 2000 movie. You know, it was, as I often like to joke, a more simpler time, you know, a more innocent time. But not because people weren't scheming behind the scenes and not because America was like, better, you know, in any way. It's just now much like the Roman Empire and its lack of leadership, complete lack of leadership and corruption and chaos that we see in Gladiator 2America now it's just much more evident what has always been going on. And there's a kind of like understanding that it is what it is. And I think rolling around in the absolute shit of like the decadence, you know, represented in the movie by the two emperors who are these sort of like pale, in fact, actually kind of like OTS coated sort of My Chemical Romance. Like emo, kind of like gross looking, you know, like colored hair actually, you know, kind of a Trumpian orange homosexual. Homoerotic. At the very least. Coded incestuous.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. I would say. I would say delicately stroking the shoulder of a semi naked boy as you watch Glad Trail Combat is. Is coded, right?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, it's coded.

[Alex Schwartz]

Ridley Scott was like, let's not be subtle this time.

[Nomi Fry]

It's really for what kind of like the kind of the lack of moral center and how everyone is kind of like looking out for number one. Seemed to me to be more in tune with the times and more kind of like honest about Its impulses in the way the first movie was not just to.

[Vincent Kanye]

And we will no doubt get back to Gladiator 2. But what are the texts? What are the movies? The whatever, that sort of. I don't know. And you're growing up or whatever, your aesthetic education, where this setting became important for you.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. So I mentioned this briefly already, but for me, I Claudius, which I watched the miniseries when I was. I was maybe like eight, I want to say. And so this is from 1976. Dirk Jacoby plays, you know, the eventual emperor. The stuttering, you know, smart, actually, all knowing, you know, pretends to be like kind of a dumb idiot, but in fact knows everything. Claudius and the Rome around him, you know, and all of its, you know, very colorful characters.

[Vincent Kanye]

I'm now about to begin this strange.

[Alex Schwartz]

History of my life, of my family. I'm gonna marry to Uncle Claudius, and you can both come and live in the palace.

[Vincent Kanye]

Why, we could stage the greatest night.

[Nomi Fry]

Of love the world has ever seen.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, you know, what I love about I, Claudius, the book, which I read when I was my early 20s or actually late teens, I think is how funny it is. It's a very. I think the thing that makes it feel so present when you read it at least, is you're there with this voice. You're with the voice of Claudius, who's writing his memoirs. And so much of it is about what exactly. What the Gladiator movies are not about, which is intricate schemes. The schemes, and especially the schemes by women. Women being as powerful as men and in some ways more powerful because they have to wield their power subtly. You know, for me, one of the great contemporary, if we're using that term, pretty generally, movies about ancient Rome is A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the forum from 1966. I just remain devoted to it. It is so key to my life and I think also my sense of humor. A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum kind of came out of all of the sword and sandal pictures from the 50s, the 60s, and it sent them up in a really funny way. It was first a Broadway musical in 1962, and then it became a film in 1966, directed by Richard Lester. The was composed by Stephen Sondheim and Ken Thorne, and it stars Zyra Mostel as this slave, Sudalis, who works for a noble family who go away one weekend, leaving him with their dull, idiot son, Hero. And Pseudolis thinks he can buy his freedom through Hero. But Hero becomes enamored of a young virginal whore who has just been sent to the brothel next door. So the young, the virgin whore is to be given as a wife to Miles Gloriosus. This great general, Miles Gloriosus, was a figure in ancient Roman satires, the kind of vainglorious hero. And as he comes stomping in, he sings a whole song about how great he is.

[Vincent Kanye]

I, Miles Gloriosus, I, slaughterer of thousands, I oppose, oppressor of the meek, subduer of the weak, degrader of the Greek, destroyer of the Turk, Thus hurry back to work by Miles Glorios.

[Alex Schwartz]

It just makes fun of the entire Rome thing in a way that just really, like, tickles me. Another thing I love about this movie is how dirty it looks. It just really.

[Nomi Fry]

What do you mean?

[Alex Schwartz]

They're sweating? It's hot. Oh, you know, don't give me the beautifully made up, you know, give me the sweat. Give their flies buzzing on screen. It's just really great in every way. It ends with a crazy chariot chase scene. Yeah, I find it big and campy and funny and it's very mid-60s and it's humor in that way, but also it doesn't take the whole thing too seriously. You know, the dream that was Rome, long gone by that time.

[Vincent Kanye]

Yeah, it's different than the comic book material. Right. In that, like, in one way, it's like lore that is repeated and repeated and gone over and over again. But unlike that stuff, which mostly they have to take it all very seriously and the world has to be at stake every single time. And something about the lastingness of antiquity opens itself up for different modes of engagement, comedy, other things. So, yeah, I was thinking a lot about, as I teased earlier, Ben Hur, which I actually watched very recently, stars Charlton Heston as this Jewish nobleman named Judah Ben Hur. And it's a 1959 directed by William Wyler. What I love about it is that it takes place. And this has a little bit of resonance with Gladiator 2, which, you know, is on some level a story of the peripheries to the center of empire. This takes place on the peripheries of empire. It's like, you know, these guys are in the sort of Palestine of the biblical era, of the New Testament era, and therefore are just subjects, you know, and the proximity and distance from the Roman Empire is the sort of long running theme of it. This guy's a nobleman, and therefore he grew up with the person who is the Roman governor over that area, has some proximity to Roman power. But also, you can tell that these people are a speck in the eyes of Rome. And early on, he meets up with this governor guy, and they're talking about Rome. I've seen Rome. And I tell you, Giorda, it is.

[Nomi Fry]

No accident that one small village on.

[Vincent Kanye]

The Tiber was chosen to rule the world. Your legions. It wasn't just our legion. Other countries have armies, fine armies, I.

[Nomi Fry]

Know, I fought them. Oh, no, no.

[Vincent Kanye]

It was fate that chose us to civilize the world. And we have. It is fate that has chosen us to civilize the world. And it shows me how, like, a lot of the time when we're talking about these people, what we really are talking about is the meaning of leadership. Like, what does it mean to lead, who gets to lead and by what right? What Ben Hur shares totally with Gladiator is that, like, there is an idea of Rome, right? And especially in America. It's like we too, have this mythology of on some level, we have a right to empire, we have a right to leadership that goes beyond our borders because of the idea, the originary idea of our society. Ben Hur is so much about that. You know, this emphasis on leadership and, like, where it really comes from, on what basis can you lead? Is what sticks with me about this. As we've been talking about, ancient Rome has been a fixture in our art, especially our popular art. But lately it's also become a fixture in our politics as well. That's in a minute on critics at large. From the New York.

[Alex Schwartz]

At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry, but. But we do also like to get.

[Nomi Fry]

Into other kinds of stories, stories about.

[Alex Schwartz]

Policing or politics, country music, hockey, sex of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers and.

[Nomi Fry]

Hopefully make you see the world.

[Alex Schwartz]

An Radiolab adventures on the edge of what we think we know.

[Nomi Fry]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Vincent Kanye]

So, yeah, we've been talking about the lasting appeal of ancient Rome. And, you know, something I'm interested in is in the same way this story has been sort of received in our entertainment over time, it seems to me that it's also had a bearing on our politics, like, on parallel lines recently, I think in really bad ways. There's a lot of the increasing and increasingly noxious white supremacist, white nationalist rhetoric that I've seen at least has had this aspect of, you know, Western civilization, that we have an inheritance that goes back to these people. And the notion of the emperor, the notion of the grand, you know, whatever it is, is part of our cultural heritage that maybe something like multiculturalism wants to erase. And therefore part of the danger of modernity is an effacement of this great inheritance. Have you seen this? Or other things like it? And how have you kind of taken that in?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. I mean, wasn't there recently, like as kind of in opposition to the so called, kind of like wokening of public schools? There has been a movement in Republican circles to champion kind of a classical education movement. I think Desantis.

[Vincent Kanye]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

Has talked about this kind of. Let's get back to brass tacks. When supposedly. And you know, and of course it's completely invented because like, what's gayer than like the Roman Empire?

[Vincent Kanye]

Right.

[Nomi Fry]

But the idea that men were men and they were white and they told women what to do and that was fine with everyone. And this sort of idea that. Let's get back to kind of like the force of a rational male who will rule us all. Which doesn't sound that great.

[Vincent Kanye]

No. A strong leader.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. I mean, I immediately think about Charlottesville, you know, the fascist march in Charlottesville among the alt right, where members of the march carried flags with symbols of the Roman state. And I think there really was and is this direct identification between the alt right and Rome. I mean, Identity Europa was a very active white supremacy group. It sort of disbanded, sort of reformed itself in 2019. But it's right there in the name, you know, Identity Europa. And of course Europa is spelled with a V in the Roman style. So not making such a secret of where it's taking its inspiration. That's right, yeah. I think one thing that really interests me about the classics in general is how they serve as such a mirror for the culture, but also different aspects of culture and especially over time, like Vincent, what you're mentioning is something I've noticed as well, which is right now what is very popular on the right, especially among the kind of young men who helped to deliver this election to Donald Trump, is this macho idea. And that's actually what I see in Gladiator 2 as well, this kind of macho hand to hand combat, basically force. The idea that Rome venerated force and that it was a time when men could be men, et cetera. And it is so interesting how the Rome we get is the Rome I guess, we need. Need with a big dose of skepticism.

[Nomi Fry]

That we can use for whatever ends.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. In any given moment. I mean, I was reading a review in Vulture that I liked a lot by Alison Wilmore. And the title of the review is, I hate to say this, but men deserve better than Gladiator 2. Basically, the point, and this is not just a rag on Gladiator, the point she's making is the first gladiator had to do with friendship, was really elevated in the first gladiator. So was family, by the way. The huge motivation of Maximus is to get back to his wife and child. And once they're dead, he keeps their figurines with him as a kind of like representation of their bodies, even though their souls are gone. You know, it's really rooted in those things in a way that the Gladiator 2 to me is just about spectacle and violence. But I think that Rome and also ancient Greece certainly have been huge to this country since its inception. Not just the idea of empire, as you mentioned, Vincent, but at a certain point, almost the opposite. Just the idea of a non, you know, monarchical kind of rule. Like, think about how George Washington was called the American Cincinnatus when he decided to step down after two terms. That kind of model was really important for the country. And it wasn't just this country. It was really important in Enlightenment Europe, in England. This idea that there was a time when the Church did not dominate, when you could have reason, when men could rule themselves. So Rome was kind of what you wanted it to be. I mean, one of the great works of history, the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon, was arguing that the Church came along and screwed everything up, and that's what made Rome fall. Please do debate historically whether or not this is the case. But as a signal of its time and the message it was trying to send, nothing could be clearer. So I think that this idea of Rome has held, you know, in modernity very broadly defined. Both the kind of promise for a better kind of government, a more equal kind of government, or maybe the opposite. The promise for domination and for control and for exploitation. And so Rome is kind of in the eye of the beholder.

[Vincent Kanye]

Right. I think it's. To your. I think it was, you know, me who meant who used the word, you know, using. Right. And there is this notion, I think it was coined by the turn of the century critic Fenwick Brooks. He wrote an essay, I think, 1918, talking about a usable past. It has to be acknowledged always that this is a work of imagination, a work of a kind of fiction that connects us to the past. But again, totally instrumentally, it's about who we want to be at the time. Right now at the Metropolitan Museum There is an exhibition, it's called the Flight into Egypt. And it's about how African American artists, pop artists, high artists, visual arts and others have sort of appropriated over time, ancient Egypt and used those aesthetics. You think about, you know, Sun Ra in jazz, you think about Parliament Funkadelic, all of these different black artists who called on this cultural patrimony. Of course, there are some like, okay, like the Egyptians were in Africa and we are. There are reasons to sort of sometimes chauvinistic reasons to say, like, you know, we've suffered at the hands of certain kinds of oppression and therefore we need to remind ourselves that people that are. Can be said to be. Our ancestors were kings and, you know, whatever. Sometimes it's a way of sort of reinvesting a people with dignity or whatever. There are many different reasons, psychological, historical, otherwise, to do this. But sometimes it yields surprising and good results. And it's like about to your point about the Roman Republic versus the Empire, all these things like, which parts do you choose? It's always cherry picking. It's never the real thing.

[Nomi Fry]

And it's not like the Republic was like, you know, I mean, totally enlightened and everything else. Totally enlightened.

[Vincent Kanye]

Right, Right, Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, with Rome, I have to say one thing that when I do think about Rome, and I won't just say when I think about the Roman Empire, but when I think about Rome, maybe Republic and Rome know me, I think one of the things that I've always liked about it and thinking about it is thinking about a culture that is really recognizable and also so vastly different. Even just going, you were talking about the Met. One thing I really like to look at at the Metropolitan Museum is ancient jewelry.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, I love that. It's my favorite thing.

[Alex Schwartz]

And to me, it's a little bit like, yes, there's all this jewelry in these movies, but you kind of think about just people putting it on.

[Nomi Fry]

It's crazy.

[Alex Schwartz]

And now I sound really stoned and I'm not, I swear.

[Vincent Kanye]

You know, putting it, wearing it, wearing it, just.

[Alex Schwartz]

I think one of the things, making.

[Nomi Fry]

It and wearing it and yeah, it's.

[Alex Schwartz]

I just think one of the reasons that we retain this connection to Rome is also for a very simple reason. It's because we have a lot of information about it. And yes, that information can be twisted and used in all kinds of ways, good and bad, but I think to immerse yourself in the life of someone else in a way, you know, just trying to imagine yourself into that, into a society that you can and can't ever imagine is itself such an appealing, tempting exercise. That one. Yeah. I guess, like, one thing that I would want to say to myself at the end of talking about it with you guys is like, make ancient Rome strange again. Take away the analogies. It can be in ways that are really simple. And it's not just Rome, maybe just the classics in general. I'm thinking of Emily Wilson. So this is a Greek thing. The translator Emily Wilson, who has now translated both the Iliad and the Odyssey into English. And so often when we think of things like this, we just think of what we've come to know of them through other sources, you know, through previous translations, through the way it sounds in our own language. And so when you do a new translation, it just strikes you totally differently. Her first line about. Or the opening of her Odyssey is, tell me about a complicated man using this word, complicated, which I think had never really been used before her translation. So I guess that's. I think that's. Maybe that's the appeal of the classics, to try to keep returning and re. Understanding even as we can't help holding them up as a mirror.

[Nomi Fry]

Is that pos.

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, it may not be possible.

[Nomi Fry]

It's like. I totally agree with you, but I'm just thinking. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if this is, like, the moment we're at right now is unique in any sense, or if I'm just making that up because I'm alive right now and I'm thinking about it and it's. But I do think that America right now is a particular. At a particular point that does lend itself to think specifically about Empire.

[Vincent Kanye]

I guess I've been wondering why. Like, not just why we do this as, you know, a species, but why we're doing this right now. It seems to me that it's like moments of uncertainty. Maybe I'm thinking about this now as I'm like, you know, every day I wake up and I'm like, what is the Democratic Party? You know, I'm just trying to figure out, you know, this kind of grounding questions. Why now? You know, do we find ourselves doing it? And, you know, and maybe why is it sort of this positive against, like, a reluctance to instead create new stories or something like that?

[Alex Schwartz]

Like, why do we return to the template of Rome?

[Vincent Kanye]

Yeah, yeah. And why? And how is it operating now?

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, I do think that when you're waking up every day and you're seeing the nominations for cabinets, you're not. Not thinking about a tiny monkey. In a dress, running around on someone's head. You're not. Not thinking about Marius card.

[Vincent Kanye]

The monkey's name is Pete Hegseth.

[Alex Schwartz]

The templates are good. The templates are good. Rome has a long history, and you keep looking, and when you see yourself reflected, it should scare you straight. It scares me.

[Nomi Fry]

That monkey was pretty cute, though.

[Vincent Kanye]

It was. It was. It must be said.

[Nomi Fry]

It must be said.

[Alex Schwartz]

It was cute. Did that qualify to be consul?

[Nomi Fry]

Eh, no. Yeah. Probably not, but it could.

[Alex Schwartz]

You know, it probably would have done a better job than Denzel.

[Vincent Kanye]

Well, you know, it's so funny that you mentioned the Denzel character. Maybe like to talk about that character just a little bit. This person who is, as we learn later on, has been a sort of enslaved subject of Rome, but is totally the outsider who, because of his outside nature, understands the society better than those who understand themselves to be insiders. Right. Maybe, though, he kind of stands for what we maybe really want, which is a critical awareness of the past instead of just like, mindlessly copying, which turns into various forms of fascism, as we've talked about, to say. Yeah, this, but not that, but not totally rejecting at the same time this weird shuttling between.

[Alex Schwartz]

Are you making a case for Macronus as hero?

[Vincent Kanye]

A little bit, yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Interesting.

[Vincent Kanye]

He's the one who's aware. He's the critic who sticks his fingers into the nose of the society and says, like. And kind of mushes your face into it and says, like, see this? This is Rome.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Vincent Kanye]

You know, this is just so we're clear, this is what you like.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Vincent Kanye]

So pushing a thing toward its own implied, like, extremities, that's like, I'll blow it up, but I'll blow it up. Roman style.

[Alex Schwartz]

Strength and honor, know me.

[Nomi Fry]

Strength and honor. Alex.

[Alex Schwartz]

Strength and honor.

[Nomi Fry]

Strength and honor.

[Alex Schwartz]

Strength and honor.

[Vincent Kanye]

Alexander.

[Alex Schwartz]

Listeners to all of you. Yeah, we're all going to need it.

[Vincent Kanye]

This spectacle of blood and violence has been Critics at Large. Our senior producer, Emperor, is Rhiannon Corby, and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Conde Nast's head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrado composed our theme music, and we had engineering help today from James Yost with mixing by Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] critics. We'll see you again next week. I'm dan Taberski.

[Alex Schwartz]

In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

[Nomi Fry]

I was like, at my locker and.

[Vincent Kanye]

She came up to me and she was like, stuttering super bad.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm like, stop around. She's like, I can't.

[Vincent Kanye]

A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's like doubling and tripling. And it's all these girls with a diagnosis.

[Vincent Kanye]

The state tried to keep on the down low.

[Alex Schwartz]

Everybody thought I was holding something back.

[Vincent Kanye]

Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Vincent Kanye]

Yeah. Well, yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

No. It's hysteria. It's all in your head.

[Nomi Fry]

It's not physical.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since.

[Vincent Kanye]

The Witches of Salem, or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right.

[Nomi Fry]

Leroy was the new dateline, and everyone.

[Alex Schwartz]

Was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical. Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by.

[Vincent Kanye]

Joining Wonderyplus.

[Nomi Fry]

From prx.