The New Western Gold Rush

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker Episode: The New Western Gold Rush Release Date: January 16, 2025

In the January 16, 2025 episode of Critics at Large titled "The New Western Gold Rush," The New Yorker's critics Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Frye, and Alexandra Schwartz delve into the surprising resurgence of the American Western genre in contemporary television and film. This detailed discussion explores the reasons behind the Western's enduring appeal, its modern reinterpretations, and its reflection of current societal tensions.

Introduction: The Western Revival

The episode opens with the hosts acknowledging a listener-driven request to examine the flood of new Westerns emerging in the media landscape. They express fascination with how these timeless narratives are experiencing a "boom," likening their sudden popularity to "gophers sprouting up" (01:41).

Key Contemporary Westerns

Yellowstone

Yellowstone, starring Kevin Costner, is highlighted as a flagship example of the genre's modern iteration. The show, now concluding its fifth season, centers on the Dutton family, wealthy ranchers in Montana, and their battles to maintain their land against various external threats.

Nomi Frye [02:03]: "It's sort of like one of the first myths of America."

The discussion underscores Yellowstone's focus on territorial control and familial legacy, traditional Western themes reimagined within a current-day setting.

Landman

Another significant mention is Landman, created by Taylor Sheridan, the same mind behind Yellowstone. The show, featuring Billy Bob Thornton and John Hamm, explores the oil industry in West Texas, blending Western motifs with modern-day conflicts involving oil magnates and Mexican drug cartels.

Alex Schwartz [12:38]: "American Primeval is about a lot of different things... fictionalized account of real-life clashes between the U.S. army, Mormon settlers, and native tribes."

Landman exemplifies the neo-Western by intertwining personal drama with broader socio-economic battles over land and resources.

American Primeval

American Primeval, a Netflix limited series, is dissected in detail. Set during the Utah War of 1857, it portrays fictionalized events between the U.S. army, Mormon settlers, and Native American tribes vying for control over territory.

Nomi Frye [10:55]: "It's positively Hobbesian."

The show is praised for its gritty depiction of violence and chaos, reflecting the tumultuous birth of American society.

Themes and Relevance of the Western Genre Today

Conflict and Justice

The hosts discuss how modern Westerns maintain the genre's core conflict over land and rights, deeply embedded in narratives of justice and societal formation through violence.

Alex Schwartz [05:14]: "I'm looking for violence... At least one kerchief."

This insistence on depicting conflict underscores the ongoing relevance of Westerns in exploring foundational American values and struggles.

Influence of Taylor Sheridan

Taylor Sheridan's pivotal role in shaping contemporary Westerns is examined. His work, characterized by intense territorial disputes and morally complex characters, resonates with current political climates, particularly around themes of expansionism and governance.

Vincent Cunningham [30:37]: "It's impossible to overstate the influence of Sheridan."

Sheridan's shows, Yellowstone and Landman, are lauded for their ability to merge traditional Western elements with modern societal issues, appealing to a broad audience.

Nature and American Identity

The portrayal of nature as an untamable force is a recurring theme. The hosts connect this to real-world issues like wildfires and environmental degradation, emphasizing how Westerns encapsulate the struggle between human ambition and nature's unpredictability.

Alex Schwartz [43:05]: "One thing I want to know from you guys is do you think this is a red state show?"

Character and Storytelling in Neo-Westerns

The episode highlights the complex characterization in modern Westerns, where protagonists navigate personal demons alongside external conflicts. Characters like Taylor Kitsch's role in American Primeval and Billy Bob Thornton's in Landman are portrayed as flawed heroes striving for stability amidst chaos.

Nomi Frye [15:00]: "Sarah... through her uncomprehending eyes... what the hell is going on."

These nuanced portrayals add depth to the traditional Western archetypes, making them relatable to contemporary audiences.

Political Undertones and Red State Appeal

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the political implications of neo-Westerns. Yellowstone and Landman are often labeled as "red state shows," reflecting conservative ideologies through their emphasis on land ownership, individualism, and resistance to external threats.

Alex Schwartz [35:58]: "Do you think this is a red state show?"

The hosts debate whether these shows subtly critique liberalism while celebrating frontier values, suggesting that their popularity might be tied to current political divisions and the desire for narratives that affirm traditional American virtues.

Lessons from Westerns and Contemporary Relevance

The panelists explore what modern Westerns can teach us about navigating today's societal challenges. Themes of community, resilience, and the negotiation of new frontiers are seen as metaphors for contemporary issues like political polarization and technological advancements.

Alex Schwartz [45:44]: "Can we set up something that is more stable?"

They propose that the Western genre, with its focus on foundational societal questions, remains a powerful lens through which to examine and address current and future dilemmas.

Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of the Western

The episode concludes by affirming the Western's timeless ability to mirror and critique the American experience. The hosts suggest that as long as America faces challenges related to land, identity, and governance, the Western genre will continue to evolve and resonate.

Alex Schwartz [46:17]: "You need those like-minded people. If you're outnumbered, your days are numbered."

Critics at Large adeptly captures the essence of the Western revival, illustrating how these narratives retain their potency by adapting to the evolving landscape of American culture and politics.

Transcript

[Nomi Frye]

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[Alex Schwartz]

Okay, let's all say wild, wild West. Wild, wild West.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wild, wild West.

[Alex Schwartz]

Wild, wild West.

[Nomi Frye]

Should I sing the. The Big Willy style Wild wild West Smith Wild wild West song?

[Alex Schwartz]

I don't see why you wouldn't.

[Vincent Cunningham]

If I stroll into the wild wild.

[Nomi Frye]

West, it was the soundtrack of our lives.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Bouncing through the wild. So stupid.

[Nomi Frye]

Okay, should I just start?

[Alex Schwartz]

I think you've begun.

[Nomi Frye]

Welcome to Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Nomi Frye.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I'm Alex Schwartz. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here.

[Vincent Cunningham]

How did we get here?

[Alex Schwartz]

My critics.

[Nomi Frye]

We got here.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, There you go.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, there is actually another answer to the question of how we got here, here being today's topic. Because actually, as you guys know, it came to us from a listener. This listener wrote in and asked us to do an episode about a slate of TV shows that have been coming out recently that are a new take on an old genre. I' I would say one of the oldest genres at least where film and TV is concerned. The American Western.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, that's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

So thank you to this listener. Yeah. This should just inspire all the rest of you to give us ideas because this is.

[Nomi Frye]

Because we got none.

[Alex Schwartz]

Because this got us really fired up. I was gonna say this listener got us wondering what is going on with this resurgence? Westerns really are cropping up everywhere. They're springing up like. Like gophers in.

[Nomi Frye]

It's a feral situation. Yeah, yeah. First of all, there's Yellowstone.

[Deborah Treisman]

Everyone's forgotten who runs this valley.

[Nomi Frye]

You know, sort of mega successful TV show starring Kevin Costner, family legacy is.

[Deborah Treisman]

This ranch now protector of my life.

[Nomi Frye]

About sort of the family of a wealthy rancher in Montana. And, you know, all the ins and outs and challenges that family faces from both within and without. And it's been, you know, extremely popular. It's now finished its fifth season.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Right. And there's also a new show by the creator of Yellowstone. It's called Landman.

[Deborah Treisman]

You gotta secure the land, then manage the people. That's my job. First part's pretty simple. It's the second part that can get you killed.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The finale just ends. So we're kind of in Peak Landman right now. You might call it the Landman Boom.

[Alex Schwartz]

You might.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You might.

[Nomi Frye]

You could.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You might. I just did.

[Nomi Frye]

Or you also couldn't.

[Alex Schwartz]

I think we will. Yeah. I mean, I'm also thinking of Horizon. You know, Nomi, you mentioned that Kevin Costner stars in Yellowstone. Well, Kevin Costner has exited Yellowstone due to a conflict with Taylor Sheridan, in part to make his own opus on the American West.

[Vincent Cunningham]

There's no army off this earth.

[Deborah Treisman]

That'S.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Gonna stop those wagons, little as they're wanted.

[Nomi Frye]

He can't stop.

[Alex Schwartz]

He can't stop. Right.

[Nomi Frye]

Because it's the first in four installments.

[Alex Schwartz]

Exactly.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Seemingly get on the train before it leaves the station, baby.

[Nomi Frye]

Beep, beep.

[Alex Schwartz]

And great train noise. One recent example is a new Netflix limited series called American Primeval, which just came out.

[Deborah Treisman]

There's war brewing in this territory.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Eddie was a mistake.

[Alex Schwartz]

I have no choice. Do you feel bad?

[Nomi Frye]

Killing men?

[Deborah Treisman]

Not the bad ones.

[Alex Schwartz]

You know, it's undeniable, I think, that the American west is alive and well on screen. There are still frontiers to be crossed there. There is land to be grabbed. And this is kind of interesting to me because the Western is a genre as old as cinema itself. I mean, it really is linked to the origins of Hollywood. And right now, when we're living through a time of renewed American conflict for sure, where the country's very history is up for debate, where there has been talk from the soon to be president of continued expansion into new frontiers such as Canada and Greenland, we have come back to the Western as a way to look at all of this. So what I want to know is, what do these new Westerns want to tell us about our past and possibly about our future? That's today on Critics at Large. Who Won the Wild, Wild West. Okay, critics, yes. To start out, what do you expect to see in a movie, in a TV show, in whatever that calls itself a Western?

[Nomi Frye]

I expect to see cowboys and Indians.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay.

[Nomi Frye]

Quote, unquote.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I wanna see in a true Western, I wanna see some dirty faces.

[Alex Schwartz]

Mm.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Some improbably slick mustaches. And at least one kerchief.

[Alex Schwartz]

Mm.

[Vincent Cunningham]

A kerchief.

[Alex Schwartz]

Vincent, your interest in the aesthetic particulars is good, specific.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Right. And this is because at least my generation, maybe. Maybe it's just my age, my introduction to the aesthetics of the Western come almost 100% from a great American hero, Ralph Lauren.

[Alex Schwartz]

Mm.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, interesting.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And those spreads, the Western wear the blankets, the fringe, the jeans, the fringe. A certain that includes the way you hang something around your neck, a scarf or a kerchief. This has been repackaged and repackaged for me through menswear.

[Nomi Frye]

That's really interesting. Famously, Ralph Lauren, a Jew from the Bronx who looked to make clothes that were more American than American. It's unsurprising that he went to western wear because that is. It's kind of like one of the first myths of America.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, absolutely. To that end, I would say that something I'm looking for in the Western, what makes Western for me is a particular kind of conflict. It's a conflict about land, it's a conflict about rights. And it is very bound up in an idea of justice. The whole mythos of the west is of a society in creation, a kind of self governed society that is born through conflict and is bringing itself into formation also often through violence. So those are some elements of the Western that I'm looking for. I'm looking for violence.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Perpetrators, the stop. Yeah, exactly. Arrows flying, Guns a shooting.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, guns a shooting and arrows a flying. Certainly the, you know, I mean, in the kind of classic touchstones of the genre, you know, the John Wayne, the famous John Wayne movies that established for us what a cowboy looks like.

[Alex Schwartz]

When I think of, you know, Duke of John Wayne, I think first and foremost of his appearance in the 1939 film Stagecoach. There's John in his cowboy hat, in his spurs. And we have an American hero.

[Deborah Treisman]

Hiya, Buck. How's your folks? Oh, just fine, Ringo, except my grandfather came up.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Shut up.

[Deborah Treisman]

Didn't expect to see you riding shotgun on this run, Marshall. Going to Lawrenceburg.

[Alex Schwartz]

Vincent, do you have any favorite westerns?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I mean, to kind of fast forward through cinema history? When I was a kid, there was the. Again, I mean, Costner does really figure into a lot of this stuff. Dances with Wolves.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, yeah, When's that from? 1990.

[Nomi Frye]

When it's 1990. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

So there was, there was a moment with that also when I was a kid and I've been waiting to see if you guys remember this show. There was a show that I watched a lot, okay. And it was called Dr. Quinn, Medicine.

[Nomi Frye]

Woman, of course, Jane Seymour. Jane Seymour, the ageless Jane Seymour.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No one ever talks about this.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, they said a woman doctor could not survive alone on the new frontier. But I won't give up. And I'm not alone anymore. I've inherited a family and that may be the biggest challenge of all.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Did you see this?

[Alex Schwartz]

No, this was lost on me.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Dr. Quinn, she was a medicine Woman. She was a medicine woman. She was a doctor from Boston who comes West. And, you know, this is. I think it takes place in the 1860s and is a doctor, a medicine woman on the great American frontier. And, you know, which kind of, like, is really interesting. So this is happening in the 1990s, right. So as we're becoming as a society, aware of Hillary Clinton, we get Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. It's like, oh, this is what the Western's supposed to do. Take the worries and the preoccupations of the age and sort of project them onto this screen that we already think we understand. So that was likely the first Western I ever saw.

[Nomi Frye]

That's really interesting.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Dr. Quinn, medicine woman.

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, for me, the first Western, I would say, and it's not exactly a Western, but I think it does deal in a lot of the themes. Alex, that you noted are kind of part and parcel of the genre is something I know I've mentioned before on this. On this podcast, the Little House on the Prairie books and also series where the frontier looms incredibly large with its kind of like, weather and its violence and settlers versus Native Americans and, you know what to be a woman. A time, you know, again, like 18, you know, 70s, 1880s, I believe, where a woman was, obviously belonged very much to the private sphere, but then was kind of, you know, dragged in some senses out of it by the rough environment that the pioneers were exposed to and the kind of idea of a society and a creation, the making of a town, the making. The building of a church.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, yeah.

[Nomi Frye]

You know, all of these things loomed really large for me as a young reader and viewer.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you talk about the making of society, to me, that is one of the crucial themes of the Western and is at the heart of one of my favorite Westerns, which is the man who Shot Liberty Valance from 1962, directed by John Ford and starring both John Wayne and James Stewart as a lawyer who comes west immediately comes into conflict with Liberty Valance. The title thug who is ruling by the gun in this town out West.

[Deborah Treisman]

No, Pilgrim, hold it. I said you, Valance, you pick it up. Three against one.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Donathan.

[Deborah Treisman]

My boy Pompey. The kitchen door.

[Alex Schwartz]

And there is a question here of what is at the root of society? Is it, is it law or is it violence and force? And the movie makes a good case. That's kind of all of it in an interesting meld, and I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen. To me, it's one of the most kind of like, how did America become America? Movies that we have, which I think is kind of really what the westerns are about. And actually brings me to what we're here to discuss. American Primeval. I mean, it's right there in the title of this thing. Clearly American Primeval is making a case that this is the origin story, a origin story of the country. So this is Netflix's new prestige show. It is a six part miniseries created by Mark L. Smith and directed by Peter Berg. Whomst among us dares to synopsize the various roiling plot points of American Primeval.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, my God.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's quite a job.

[Nomi Frye]

I feel like there's only one man for the job they do. Yeah. And that man is Alex Schwartz.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, my goodness. I'm nominated to sling my gun and hanger Shanghai.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, wow.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sorry. Please be our guide to the next town.

[Alex Schwartz]

All right, so American Primeval is about a lot of different things. It's set during the Utah War of 1857, and it's basically fictionalized account of real life clashes between the U.S. army, Mormon settlers and native tribes who are all warring over territory in the American West. We have a mother and her son from the east coast looking to join up with her husband as they make their way through treacherous terrain. We have conflicts between all of these groups above. We have corpses. A piling up.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Many corpses. So many corpses. So many scalps.

[Nomi Frye]

Lots of scalps.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's positively Hobbesian.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It is.

[Alex Schwartz]

What did you guys think of this show?

[Nomi Frye]

I liked it. I thought it was.

[Alex Schwartz]

And that's great. And we wanna hear why.

[Nomi Frye]

And that's all I'll say.

[Alex Schwartz]

Your pregnant paws waiting for. Waiting for us to.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, yeah. No, I thought it was quite good. I mean, you know, it's kind of like, as you said, Alex, it is like palpably kind of a prestige project. So it's meant to be good, you know, it's meant to be important and almost like artsy in a way, I think. And I thought it worked. Actually, one of the things that I liked about it is that it's kind of a whirl of indistinguishable violence half the time, you know, like I was watching it and I was like, you know, there's like this horrible massacre in the first episode, which is based on a real life massacre that happened around the same time in 1857, I believe, in the territory between Mormons and pioneers and, you know, some Indian kind of accomplices of the Mormons. And I was watching and I was like, what's going on. You know, everything happens. Everything is such a swirl of grime and mud and blood and sort of like senseless aggression in this fight over territory that I think on the plot level, it sometimes almost difficult to figure out what's going on for a pretty long while because it's kind of. In a way, the topic is kind of the confusion and senselessness of this era. And I think it does actually pointedly kind of a really good job doing that. And I think the acting is quite good. I think Taylor Kitsch is really good. I think Betty Gilpin is really good. Taylor Kitsch plays this kind of like, man of the frontier who guides Sarah, the woman played by Betty Gilpin, who comes from the east and is seeking out with her young son, seeking out her husband who has a gold claim, she says, in Utah. And the character of Sarah is also kind of. She's kind of like the figure who we can. Through her eyes, through her uncomprehending eyes and her kind of like, you know, consistently shocked perspective of, like, what the hell is going on in this incredibly lawless and scary place. This is the kind of environment.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Quite an establishment you have here. I expected things to improve once we came across more people.

[Deborah Treisman]

Civilization and civilized are two different words entirely, Ms. Royal, I might suggest you head back to Boston where you'll find more of each.

[Alex Schwartz]

My husband is waiting for us at Crook Springs.

[Deborah Treisman]

I suggest maybe you wait a little longer until early spring. Weather will have ease by then, and any luck, the tribes of Mormons will stop their ravaging.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm afraid waiting is not an option, Mr. Bridger. There's a moment early on where the Betty Gilpin character, Sarah, is sort of insisting, like, no, I have to go to Colorado. I gotta get to this place. And Shea Whigham Bridger, the sort of founder of this small settlement, this small fort in Wyoming, gives her a sense of what is to come. And he's telling her, no. First there's a mountain range, and then there's, like, a cutaway to the mountains, and then there's the Mormons and they show them. And then there's. So it's like this moment of, like. It is kind of an expository moment, but it's also like what people nowadays call world building. It's like, here are all of the interests involved here.

[Deborah Treisman]

There's war brewing in this territory. Brigham Young trying to make his kingdom, President Buchanan sending in troops, try to stomp it out. And every single one of them more than content to kill some immigrant mother and child. To keep their grip on what they see as theirs.

[Alex Schwartz]

Mr. Bridger, I would appreciate you securing my son and I an escort.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And the way that the story moves is in that kind of way around those interests. Sometimes we're watching Brigham Young give a speech with his thumb forward, like a sort of proto Bill Clinton sort of riling up his troops. Sometimes we're with his band of his sort of Mormon gang that does his bidding and is the perpetrator of that massacre. Sometimes we're among the Shoshana or among the sort of splinter groups among them. Sometimes. So we're moving around in this way. Sometimes we're with the American, the U.S. army, who. There's one point where one of the lieutenants is sending a letter back home and we hear a voiceover and he's saying, there's no love here. It's only brutality. It's just like that. It's just like he's writing back home. And every. Every day I'm in this frontier, I feel myself getting lost in it. You know, it's just like the absolute, as you say, senselessness, the brutality of it. There's always violence in westerns, but here it's just like there are moments when it gets very heightened and very crazy. There's a moment where like, you know, during the massacre, an ox just comes up and rams one of the, like the wagons. It's just like so crazily violent that sometimes it feels over the top. But I like that maybe as a counterpoint to the more so the glossy or sort of almost comic violence that we sometimes get in westerns here. It's like, this was some bullshit. I can't believe that this is how this country came, at least in part into being.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I think there's absolutely this emphasis on the darkness, the filth. It's the wanton violence as a matter, I guess, of aesthetics and also storytelling at first put me off a little bit and then I was like, all.

[Nomi Frye]

Right, what's another body?

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, it reminds me a little bit of my reaction to. I've been watching Shogun. I don't know if you guys have yet caught up on Shogun.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I haven't the block.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, Shogun.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

The blockbuster series, Hulu series from last year, which depicts a similar clash of civilization between first the Portuguese and in the show, the first English to arrive in Japan in the year 1600 and the Inter feuding Japanese clans in what is going to become a civil war. And similarly there bodies are dropping and I'm thinking, oh my God, this is a society that has a very definite system of justice and moral codes, and yet the violence is everywhere. And I think that's the point here of American Primeval, too. I mean, if you're looking for a document, a contemporary document, to kind of shine the light on the ugliness that is America and say, well, how did we all get here? By absolutely clobbering each other to death. American Primeval, is it? I mean, I don't want that to put listeners off entirely. One thing I kept thinking as I was watching this show was, can you believe that a mere hundred years after the events depicted in the show, people were just driving on highways in cars in the same areas? Yeah, it's shocking. You know, the kind of rapid nature of development from then till now seems amazing, and yet maybe also is actually just a complete mirage.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And not only that, but yes to that, but also the simultaneity, if you think about also at the same time that this is happening and this is why the Sara character is so interesting, there's guys in waistcoats and shit in Boston. You know, in a society that seems much more sort of understandable to us now, like that there were opera houses and stuff on the same continent.

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, this is the same time as, like, craziness. Like, Meg March was like, you know, 12 in, like Boston.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, Meg is in the background. Yeah. I mean, I think what you guys are saying gets to this point where you. The idea of this show is to kind of demonstrate the brutality of a particular American experience, the expansion west. But it all points back. It points back to so called civilization. It points back, you know, why is Sarah willing to risk the horrors that she's encountering on this trail west? Well, because she's leaving something that in some ways to her is equally brutal. Your wagon to our wagon train. And don't go away. Critics at large will be right back. I've waited a lifetime to say that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Thank you.

[Nomi Frye]

Hi, I'm Deborah Treisman, fiction editor of the New Yorker. Each week on the Writer's Voice podcast, New Yorker fiction writers read their newly published stories from the magazine. You can hear from authors like Colson Whitehead.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Turner nudged Elwood, who had a look of horror on his face. They saw it. Griff wasn't going down. He was going to go for it. No matter what happened after.

[Nomi Frye]

Or Joy Williams, her father was silent. Slowly, he passed his hand over his hair. This usually meant that he was traveling to a place immune to her presence, a place that indeed contradicted her presence. She Might as well go to lunch, listen to news stories or dive into our archive of great fiction. You can find the work of your favorite fiction writers and discover new ones. Listen and follow the writer's voice wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alex Schwartz]

All right, so let's widen the lens a little bit because as we were saying before, American Primeval is part of a larger slate of recent shows and films that have picked up on this mantle of the American Western, taken them in some cases into contemporary times. Tell me about some of the others. I mean, we can't go on without talking about the Duttons and Yellowstone. It's the story, as you were saying before Nomi, of John Dutton, who is played by Kevin Costner, who's a fifth generation Montana rancher who has a ranch that is touted as being as big as the state of Rhode Island. It's absolutely enormous. And the conflicts in the show, which takes place in the present day, I guess, are classic western conflicts in that they all have to do with territorial control.

[Deborah Treisman]

We weren't bothering anyone, just having some fun. This field's mine. That fence, mine. You damaged both, then you came back to damage it more. This is my home. If I did this to your home, what would you do? I'd kill you. That's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

Constantly things are encroaching on the ranch. It shares a border with an Indian reservation. There is a whole politics that I cannot even begin to comprehend as I'm just a novice watcher of this show. You know, guys, there's family stuff, right? There's tons of family stuff about this messed up family that one of the sons dies in the first episode. There's a son who's married to a Native American woman who has been involved in killing his brother in law. There's a hyper sexed up, cynical daughter who I kind of love. Like this character is not subtle. You know, she sits in bars and says and you know, tries to seduce the family's political enemies and you know, says things like, you know, that having sex with her will be like touching the sunrise. And I'm kind of here for it. I mean, it's not that hard, I think, to understand why it's beloved. It's a soap opera. And Taylor Sheridan has said that too, that he was trying to make a western rolled up with a soap opera kind of, you know, all the things at once. I think what we can say about Yellowstone as it might be useful to our conversation here is that first of all, it was hugely popular, like by far the most popular scripted show on.

[Nomi Frye]

Network television, around 12 million viewers reportedly watched the premiere of season five.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, it was big stuff. And the other thing that's interesting to me about it is that Yellowstone is talked about constantly as a red state show. And Taylor Sheridan has gone on the record as thinking this is hilarious. Like, he says he's not writing a red state show and that this is okay. Let people think what they want. He'll be laughing all the way to the bank. But I want us to talk about another Taylor Sheridan show so we can try to tease some of this out. Landman. It's the most recent entry in the Sheridan oeuvre.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

So take us there.

[Nomi Frye]

Okay.

[Alex Schwartz]

Nomi, take us to Landman.

[Nomi Frye]

Okay. So Landman. Yes. On Paramount, first season just ended. We have Billy Bob Thornton as a kind of oil drilling caretaker slash fixer.

[Deborah Treisman]

The industries listed ahead of oil and gas are completely dependent on oil and gas. The more they grow, the more we grow. That's the scale, that's the size of this thing. And it's only getting bigger, this fucking job. But before any of that money is made, you gotta get the lease, you gotta secure the rights and lock up the surface and babysit the owners, babysit the crew, then manage the police and the press when the babies refuse to be set. That's my job.

[Nomi Frye]

He works for a wealthy oil magnate played by John Hamm, who is married to the lovely Demi Moore. And Billy Bob Thornton is kind of like his go between on the ground, so to speak, making sure that, you know, the Mexican drug cartels who are in the area, because this takes place in West Texas, I should say so, close to the border, are dealt with. You know, it all has to do with kind of the territory, the crooked land leasers. Of course, there are, like, personal conflicts. Billy Bob is a divorced alcoholic who used to be married to the lovely Ally Larder, who is now remarried and keeps kind of like teasing him, you know, you said Alex in Yellowstone, the daughter is unsubtle in her feminine wiles. Let's talk about lack of subtlety in presenting the female characters on Landman. You know, there's Ali Larder who plays the sort of sexed up, like, horned up Angie.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah. Her personality is. I like to fuck in all casts. She loves to fuck with like some rhinestones in there.

[Nomi Frye]

She can't stop fucking. And Billy Bob is. Is sort of who is a kind of a quip machine, you know, all quips. He's like also horned up, but also somehow irresistible to women. Even though he's like a complete Husk. You know, it's sort of unclear.

[Alex Schwartz]

I get it.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, there is. They have two children together. One of them is. Wants to be. Is kind of like a reed, like, you know, college dropout who for some reason decides to go in his dad's footsteps and become kind of a roughneck on the oil fields and wants to climb his way up. There's a daughter also extremely horned up. Makes all the other older men around. Billy Bob act extremely inappropriately boners all the time. Yeah. Which Billy Bob, of course, takes, accepts with ease even though he's a father to a daughter. It's like sex and money and oil and jokes and violence and drama and it's all kind of like, leavened with a kind of like, throwback feel of like, oh, you know, all of those things that you taught us weren't okay to say anymore or to do. Like, here you can. It's okay. This is America. You know, we're back to like, loving like a blonde girl in a bikini. Right. Vincent, I know that you also were struck by that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's true. I also think it's worth, partly because it's kind of news to me, really, just taking a minute to talk about how big Taylor Sheridan is as a figure in TV right now. Bloomberg reporter Lucas Shaw talked about this in his newsletter. It's called Screen Time, and I'm just gonna read what he wrote. The number one TV producer in the US Right now is. Is Taylor Sheridan. The season finale of his series Landman, dropped on Paramount Sunday. It has been one of the most popular streaming shows in the US since its debut, outperforming the biggest shows on larger streaming platforms. The writer producer created three of the most watched original streaming shows in the US during the final third of the year. So, I mean, it's impossible to overstate the influence of Sheridan. And I mean, just think about it. He's done that basically on the back of the Western. He hit on so many of the things that I think can maybe define some of the characteristics of either the Taylor Sheridan verse or the larger thing of neo Western, which takes place in a more contemporary America, happens in the west, but reiterates these themes of territory, money. There's one thing is the extremity, the closeness to the border, the way that the older Western takes place more in sort of Wyoming, Colorado, but here we're moving. It's like the Southwest. So the border is a part of this. Again, reiteration of the theme of territory, but also, I think, rhyming with our current politics. It's always interesting to me when Trump says, in talking about the crisis at the border, he always says, we don't even have a country. Meaning that if somebody can cross a line, that we. The whole concept of nationhood has to do with a certain non permeability, right? And so that sense today, I think, is a lot of the subtext of some of these Neo Westerns and why the Sheridan verse has been thought of as a Red State phenomenon. But the other thing is, how do you figure, what part does the east coast play in something like American Primeval? It's just a place that a woman is going, she doesn't want to talk about what happened in Philadelphia. Sarah In American Primeval, it's just like civilization versus the land. Right here, though, Cooper, the son of Billy Bob Thornton's character, what he says to his father after he's been in this oil rig blow up, and Billy Bob's like, you don't want to do this, man. This is not for you. He says, what do you want me to do, sit at some computer? That's the east coast, that's civilization. That's the world, by the way, against which most of the country, the whole red wave is reacting, right? It's either be a goober at a computer, implicitly die on opioids or video games or porn or whatever, or build something on an oil rig, right?

[Nomi Frye]

Live a real life.

[Vincent Cunningham]

If you don't have a country, people can walk in and out of your borders or whatever, and there's no jobs for like real guys, then, like, where's the dynamism? Where can I go to like actually literally build something and get rich?

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, Vincent, I take your point. A huge part of the motivation of that character Cooper is also getting rich. He says very explicitly, yeah, I want to start as the worm, which is the kind of term of art for the newbie on the, you know, in the oil fields. So I can learn every aspect of this operation so that I can take over, so that I can be a Monte Miller, who's the Jon Hamm tycoon character. And that is a part of the. That is another part of the western and the neo Western, this idea of fortune and capital, capital, you know, this. Not to keep hearkening back to old westerns, but, you know, why not? They're on my mind. There is an aspect here, maybe more implicitly than explicitly, but I wanna make it explicit, of a movie that I love, the Treasure of The Sierra Madre, 1948, which is just kind of the John Huston movie. Which is about being driven mad by the possibility that you can strike gold and make it big.

[Deborah Treisman]

California and Australia, all over the world, practically. I know what gold does to men's souls. You talk as though you struck it rich sometime or other, Pop. How about it? And what are you doing in here? The down and outer. That's gold. That's what makes this. Never knew a prospector yet that died rich. Make one fortune sure to blow it in trying to find another. I'm no exception to the rule.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's so good because it's so dark. And that darkness is here too. I think sometimes it's, you know, it's leavened by the kind of quippy humor that Billy Bob Thornton gets to toss off at all times. I mean, he's working in this industry where there's tremendous wealth to be had. And we learn he's $500,000 in debt. And that's part of. That's part partly because. And there's nothing more American than that. There is nothing more American than being in extreme debt as you pursue wealth. I mean, one thing I want to know from you guys is do you think this is a red state show? There's clearly a lot of negging of liberals on the show. Like, there's a liberal lawyer who comes in who absolutely owns and dominates when in a deposition, and she just kind of walks out on a total high. And she is the representative of the. You know, she's a killer.

[Nomi Frye]

She's a lady lawyer.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, and she's a killer. But in an east coast sense, in a highly schooled, you know, not ready to kind of get down and dirty, but maybe, question mark, we'll see what goes on with that. And so there's a lot. Like, there's a moment where she notices wind turbines on a part of the patch and she says, what? There's green energy here. There's. And she's immediately told by Billy Bob, no, no, no. Those wind turbines are here in order to power the drills getting the oil. And they will not end up being a worth. They will not cover their own carbon footprints of what it costs to make them. So there's a little bit of a kind of shaking at you, the viewer, you know, the blue state viewer. Can I confess something to you guys, please? Does this say something about my personality? I was. I was like, there for it. I was like, great. You know, mock my biases, humiliate me before the majesty of wealth and the oil as it destroys our world. Yeah, like, the show sees you. Tsk, tsking. And shaking your finger and it says, oh, yeah, you wanna live without oil? Well, yeah, try to do it.

[Nomi Frye]

Go ahead, honey. Yeah, I do think it's a red state show. I do, and I think that's fine. I identify with what you're saying, Alex. It's like me preferring to stay on Twitter rather than going to Blue sky because I'm like, okay, I need to sort of see what people are saying, what's being said, what's being said. You know, I think it's a mistake not to.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

I guess my reaction to, like, there have been a bunch of critics saying, I can't believe the women are this completely, you know, just like non entities. Like, they're ridiculous. They're truly running around basically being fuckbots and sex dolls. And I was like, okay, fine, let it happen. Whatever. Like, that's, you know, I'm not gonna take the bait. I'm here for the. I'm here for the oil.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm Landman.

[Nomi Frye]

You Alex Schwartz.

[Alex Schwartz]

Alex Schwartz is Landman. Westerns have been around since the beginning of Hollywood. What do they have to say to us now? Critics at large will be right back.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm investigative journalist and former Deputy sheriff Scott Weinberg.

[Nomi Frye]

And I'm Anna Sega Nicolazi, former New York City homicide prosecutor.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Each week on our podcast, Anatomy of Murder, we give you the inside perspective as we dissect the layers of each case. The victim, the crime, and the investigation.

[Nomi Frye]

You'll hear from victims, loved ones, and those actually involved in the journeys to justice.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Because the heart of each of these cases and this podcast is people listen.

[Nomi Frye]

To Anatomy of Murder now wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Alex Schwartz]

So we've been talking about westerns as a genre in broad strokes, what it does broadly, and a little bit about neo Westerns too. So what about right now? Like, why is this genre coming back? Now? When I look at these, like, when we talk about Yellowstone or when we talk about Landman, I think there's a real need to say this is unsettled. There's still wildness in this country, and there always will be wildness that I think is bigger maybe than just like a red state versus blue state kind of politics.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think it's the politics of sort of stability, sclerosis, decline. We've got a big. One of our big preoccupations these days is the gerontocracy. Why is everybody in Congress so old? I think of this as a classic east coast problem. Sometimes I walk through Central park or I go to the theater, and every single one of the benches or seats already has somebody's name on it, as if to say, it's all done. Everything's been claimed here, and everything that is of real import has been settled. Therefore, if you are dissatisfied, get over it. And the Western says, no, there are still things being negotiated. This is why even movies that aren't Westerns often has a moment that looks like a Western when it's like, this is where it gets worked out. I was thinking about this the middle of Oppenheimer, when he establishes the town of Los Alamos to where the bomb is actually built. It's like, we're gonna decide what kind of society we are. And in order to do that, I need to give you a little Western. All of a sudden, they're building a church. There's purveyors, there's sticks going into the ground. We need to build a whole new society just so we can figure this thing out about atomic power. And it does seem like, you know, one reason to, like, talk about, like, today on the Western is to say, like, or maybe the way to sort of reverse engineer the question is like, what is it that we are trying to work out so deeply that we all of a sudden need stakes in the ground again? You know, And I think there are lots of questions like that that are very open in our society, which is why. And I do think that Trump, in his, like, absolutely animal way, understands that that's like, are people gonna be have jobs anymore? Is AI gonna take, like, all these big questions we have? He's like, let's buy Greenland, which is.

[Nomi Frye]

Not for sale, which is not, as.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Far as anybody knows, for sale. Trump says, you know, we could also, like, why don't we make Canada huge? Canada, by the way, the 51st state. The whole Canada could be one US state. And recently at a press conference says, also, while we're at it, why don't we rename the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America? And so part of his, you know, part of his second term appeal is, you know, this is gonna be America's golden age. Like, that's how we're. The way to figure this stuff out is to, like, open up a fresh frontier.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. I mean, meanwhile, as this is going on, the thing that's connected in my mind with these ridiculous plots and ploys of expansion is also just nature itself. I mean, one thing we haven't touched on so much is nature and the American West. That's a huge part of it. It's about also the attempt to tame a landscape, but also to Acknowledge the power that a landscape has. And one thing that I've especially been thinking about with Landman and its oil theme are the fires in the West. It's a little bit like, you know, the west is saying, hold on now, there is no owning me, there is no controlling me, there is no taming me. Yes, yes, you thought you had me. Actually, this is not the case. It just strikes me that whether or not we want to be living in a Western. Yeah, you are.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You are.

[Alex Schwartz]

You very much still are.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, it's so true. And even if you thinking about again these horrible, horrible Los Angeles fires, the reaction to them is so like the sort of structure of a Western. There's the human being and their aspirations, their like, you know, desire for a new home or whatever. There is nature, but then there's also the law. It's like immediately, and I think rightly, we start looking around at like, okay, so what's the public policy? How do we govern? How do we mediate between the person in nature, what's going on with oil interests, what's going on with fire department budgets, all these questions. It's just like these blue and gold uniforms of the US army that recur through these westerns. It's like, so where does the law intervene? What can the law do? What can it not do? And also speaking of the horizontality of American primeval, these different groups, it's like the unhoused in la, all the wealthy landowners. Who's responsible? That's such a big question. And it's like, you know, part of the structure of this stuff.

[Nomi Frye]

Who's responsible? And much like in the Western, you know, it often feels like the inhabitants of the land end up alone, you know, with the government falling short, with the body politic falling short. And then all we end up with is this go fund me economy. Right. There's nowhere to go to. It's like 1881 in the Dakota Territory or something because no one's coming. The trains have stopped. The self reliance or the reliance on a close community is still kind of the law of the land in America.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

You know, but I guess that's what I mean, because, you know, in something like, okay, take American primeval, you're looking at a society trying to decide, can we be a society? Is there a point in being a society? What this rough, brutal, very super, super new town is trying to figure out basically is, can we set up something that is more stable? I mean, in that way? I think the questions remain.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No, that's right, that's Right.

[Alex Schwartz]

To say the very least. I mean, what I'm wondering is if there are lessons like that that westerns offer us about how to survive under these circumstances.

[Vincent Cunningham]

One of the answers is you do need to round up a posse.

[Alex Schwartz]

You need a posse.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You need a posse because like if one of the great variables of the western is the law and where does it step in and how far does it extend? The only countervailing force to that is numbers. You need those like minded people. Larry David. Oh, gosh, Larry David, when he did stand up, has this whole joke about ducking the posse. He's like, oh, did he send a note about a posse? You were rounding up a posse. I didn't get to know. I would have been part of the posse. You know, there's like, there is a lot.

[Nomi Frye]

He's a person who is not part of the posse.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right. There's a lot of posse shirking in this society. Right. But the only guarantee, because the moment you don't have numbers, it doesn't matter who you are in these things, you can be the most skilled fighter, whatever. If you're outnumbered, your days are numbered. But you know, round you up a good enough posse and you know, you might make it to Colorado. That's it.

[Nomi Frye]

Here's hoping.

[Alex Schwartz]

Glad to be riding with this part. Posse.

[Nomi Frye]

Yay. We have a posy.

[Alex Schwartz]

Do not forsake me, my darlings. This has been Critics at Large. Our senior producer is Rhiannon Corby and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino Conde Nasty head of global audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrato composed our theme music and we had engineering help today from James Yost with mixing by Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] critics hi, I'm Susan Glaser.

[Nomi Frye]

I'm Jane Mayer.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I'm Evan Osmos. And we host the Washington Roundtable from the New Yorker's political scene podcast.

[Nomi Frye]

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[Alex Schwartz]

In the country and, you know, just kind of compare notes.

[Nomi Frye]

Now that's so true because first of all, we are actually friends in real life. But I can't wait till Fridays to hear what you guys think. Everybody sees the headlines, but you guys fill in the gaps.

[Alex Schwartz]

I also think, though, occasionally we get somebody to come on and I'm always smarter for it. If you get a great historian who can tell you about a presidential election 5060 years ago. Often it can help you understand about what's happening today. So if you're looking for weekly insights.

[Nomi Frye]

Into what's going on inside the Beltway.

[Alex Schwartz]

Please join us every Friday on the Washington Roundtable, part of the New Yorker's.

[Nomi Frye]

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