The Staying Power of the “S.N.L.” Machine

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker Episode Summary: “The Staying Power of the ‘S.N.L.’ Machine” Release Date: February 20, 2025

In this engaging episode of Critics at Large, The New Yorker's staff writers Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Fry, and Alexandra Schwartz delve deep into the enigmatic longevity of Saturday Night Live (SNL). Celebrating its 50th anniversary, the trio examines the factors that have cemented SNL as a cultural staple, explores its historical evolution, and contemplates its future in the ever-changing landscape of television and comedy.

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1. Personal Beginnings with SNL

The discussion opens with each critic reminiscing about their first memorable SNL sketches, offering personal insights into how the show has shaped their sense of humor over the years.

• Vinson Cunningham recalls Tracy Morgan’s “Brian Fellows Safari Planet” sketch:

  “All I'm saying is he needs a haircut. His shaggy appearance is helpful in many ways. Well, I imagine his sharp quills are evolution's way of providing him with excellent defense against his natural predators.”
  (02:18)

• Nomi Frye shares her teenage laughter over Kevin Nealon’s character “Mr. No Depth Perception,” highlighting the quirky humor that drew her in:

  “I just remember thinking it was so stupid and funny for me.”
  (02:50)

• Alex Schwartz reminisces about Helen Gurley Brown and Maya Angelou sketches, emphasizing SNL’s blend of humor and unexpected character portrayals:

  “She came to say that she'd been dead for six months and that really cracked me up.”
  (03:34)

2. SNL’s 50th Anniversary Celebrations

The conversation transitions to SNL’s extensive 50th-anniversary festivities, including commemorative concerts, special episode rebroadcasts, and NBC’s four-part docuseries, SNL 50 Beyond Saturday Night.

• Alex Schwartz expresses mixed feelings about the anniversary special:

  “My butt was in the seat until 11pm at which point it showed no signs of slowing down and I had to, you know, trundle off to bed.”
  (05:24)

• Vinson Cunningham praises the special for capturing the essence of SNL’s celebrity-driven format:

  “It was like the Oscars of Saturday Night Live.”
  (05:32)

3. Analyzing the Anniversary Special

The critics dissect the anniversary special, noting its star-studded lineup and the heavy presence of celebrities, which underscores SNL’s enduring focus on fame.

• Vinson Cunningham observes:

  “This show clarified something about snl... It really is a show about fame.”
  (14:23)

• Nomi Frye adds:

  “There's something monocultural about it, at least trying to reassure itself and reassure us as viewers that we are still kind of like united around some mythical water cooler.”
  (15:11)

4. Reflecting on SNL’s Origins and Evolution

A pivotal segment involves revisiting SNL’s first episode from October 11, 1975, contrasting its countercultural spirit with its current mainstream status.

• Vinson Cunningham highlights the show's original rebellious tone:

  “It was clear that we were in the realm of the firmly countercultural.”
  (26:37)

• Alex Schwartz points out the stark differences in comedic styles over the decades:

  “He's talking about football as an analogy for American imperialism. Not a bit that, you know, would seem inappropriate today.”
  (26:41)

5. The Creative Engine: Lorne Michaels

The discussion delves into Lorne Michaels’ pivotal role in shaping SNL’s identity, referencing Susan Morrison’s biography, Lorne, the Man who Invented Saturday Night Live.

• Nomi Frye emphasizes Michaels’ foresight:

  “One of Lauren's kind of like, six senses was knowing when the music is changing.”
  (30:54)

• Vinson Cunningham discusses Michaels' balancing act between old and new comedic styles:

  “He was dancing between these two modes, the radically new and the sort of old kind of standup comedian and the old kind of sketch performer.”
  (32:22)

6. Political Humor and Modern Relevance

The critics assess SNL’s approach to political satire, particularly in the context of its 50th-anniversary special, which featured a fleeting political joke involving Steve Martin and Martin Short.

• Vinson Cunningham reflects on the joke’s effectiveness:

  “I was trying to figure out whether it was like a toothless gag that just kind of immediately gave way to the rest of the celebrity scene or if it was an actual sort of puncture in the fabric of the show.”
  (35:05)

• Alex Schwartz shares her discomfort with the political undertone:

  “It felt like, okay, you're trying to figure out where to put the punchline or where to put the target.”
  (36:26)

• Nomi Frye critiques SNL’s political stance:

  “It's a show made by an extremely wealthy man who has gained greatly from the entertainment industry. It's monoculture or it hopes to be monoculture.”
  (37:14)

7. The Balance of Humor and Legacy

The conversation turns introspective as the critics ponder SNL’s ability to remain funny while maintaining its legacy, acknowledging that humor is subjective and varies with each performer.

• Alex Schwartz admits her struggle to find SNL consistently funny despite respecting its performers:

  “I'm just wanting to crack the smile more often than I'm cracking a smile.”
  (40:04)

• Nomi Frye responds with understanding:

  “There's something about the gap between SNL's status as iconic institution that operates, as we've said, according to a set formula and the ability to make an across the board funny show every week.”
  (41:25)

8. SNL’s Workforce and Longevity

The team discusses the evolving nature of SNL’s cast and crew, noting the increasing tenure of performers like Kenan Thompson and the dynamic duo of Colin Jost and Michael Che.

• Vinson Cunningham comments on the stability and evolution of the cast:

  “Kenan Thompson is the most long-running member of the show in its history. He's been there for maybe 25 of the 15 years. Unbelievable.”
  (42:22)

9. Envisioning SNL’s Future

Looking ahead, the critics speculate on who might lead SNL post-Lorne Michaels, expressing hope for leaders like Tina Fey who could carry forward Michaels’ legacy of blending comfort with innovation.

• Vinson Cunningham advocates for Tina Fey:

  “If we want the show to be something like it has been, then the obvious answer is Tina Fey.”
  (46:54)

• Alex Schwartz supports the idea humorously:

  “Let's just say that she's a member of the comedy community. You heard it here first.”
  (48:23)

10. Closing Reflections

The episode concludes with personal reflections on SNL’s impact across generations, underscoring its role as a rite of passage for both performers and viewers alike.

• Nomi Frye shares the joy of her daughter engaging with SNL:

  “I have been kind of lucky enough to... see her entering the world of comedy through the conduit of this kind of like, rather you know, very mainstream organ.”
  (45:33)

• Alex Schwartz emphasizes the show’s enduring place in cultural life:

  “It's a rite of passage, not just for the performers, but also for the viewers in a way.”
  (46:14)

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Key Takeaways:

• Enduring Legacy: SNL’s 50-year run showcases its ability to adapt while maintaining a core formula centered around celebrity engagement and sketch comedy.
• Leadership and Innovation: Lorne Michaels’ leadership has been pivotal, and the future may rely on figures like Tina Fey to sustain its legacy.
• Cultural Reflection: While SNL began as a countercultural force, it now operates within a more conservative and formulaic framework, reflecting broader societal changes.
• Humor’s Subjectivity: The critics acknowledge that while SNL remains iconic, its humor may not resonate equally with all viewers, highlighting the subjective nature of comedy.
• Generational Impact: SNL continues to influence new generations, both as a platform for emerging talent and as a cultural touchstone for audiences.

This comprehensive exploration by Cunningham, Fry, and Schwartz provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of SNL’s staying power, its intricate balance between tradition and innovation, and the challenges it faces in remaining relevant in a rapidly evolving cultural landscape.

Transcript

[Nomi Frye]

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[Vincent Cunningham]

We the people shape our country's story. America250 is gearing up to celebrate the 250th anniversary of of the founding of America's democracy by collecting and preserving diverse stories from across the nation. Nominate any living person you think has a story to be preserved and celebrated for generations to come. Help tell our American story, every unique version of it. Visit america250.org nominate to submit.

[Alex Schwartz]

The Cold Open should be an elaborate sketch that somehow reveals that you're on the coast.

[Nomi Frye]

I am back on the coast, and I'm in beautiful Hollywood. And weirdly, I'm kind of ready to come back. Maybe all of this SNL stuff, you know, the quintessential New York show, has made me feel a longing to come back to the city.

[Alex Schwartz]

We will embrace you with open arms.

[Nomi Frye]

I'm Nomi Frye.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Alex Schwartz]

And I'm Alex Schwartz. And live from New York, it's Critics at Law.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I see what you did. I see what you did.

[Alex Schwartz]

Someone get a saxophone?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

All right. That's it. That sounded like it to me. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. And in case it's not already obvious from that opening today, we. We are talking about Saturday Night Live. It's one of those things that has been part of the culture for what feels like forever. Certainly for us, it is older than we are. So I want to know, critics, what is the first Saturday Night Live clip that made you laugh?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It is a little sketch called Brian Fellows Safari Planet, played by Tracy Morgan, where he plays a kind of sassy wildlife expert. The porcupine is in the rodent family. Those hairs are actually a thousand quills. All I'm saying is he needs a haircut. His shaggy appearance is helpful in many ways. Well, I imagine his sharp quills are evolution's way of providing him with excellent defense against his natural predators.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Nomi, how about you?

[Nomi Frye]

I can't say for sure if this was the first one that made me laugh, but it's. And it's kind of random, but I remember really laughing as a teenager watching Kevin Nealon do this repeating character Mr. No Depth Perception. I don't know if you know this. He was like basically a guy who only saw things in 2D.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I can't believe Brenda's dating this loser. You know what she's after, right? I bet he's got money or something. Jerry.

[Alex Schwartz]

What?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, relax. He can't hear me way down there.

[Nomi Frye]

I just remember thinking it was so stupid and funny for me.

[Alex Schwartz]

First of all, there's a sketch involving Helen Gurley Brown that I've been looking for for years. I don't know who played her. I didn't know who she was. I was about 11. She came to say that she'd been dead for six months and that really cracked me up. If anyone knows what the sketches I've been googling, I cannot find it. Please tell me.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Listeners, get out.

[Alex Schwartz]

Listeners, we're asking you. But one that just I remember everyone talking about in the middle school cafeteria was when David Alan Grier guest hosted and played Maya Angelou doing a commercial for Froot Loops.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Toucan Sam, you leap on the back of the wind. Lodestone to assorted fruit flavors. Phoenix of the Dawns.

[Alex Schwartz]

Gave you Toucan.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sam Life, you, Toucan Sam, give us.

[Alex Schwartz]

Loops of fruit, Fruity loops and the idea that you could make fun of but also kind of love. The whole Maya Angelou Persona definitely blew the minds of kids who were reading Maya Angelou in School. So SNL turns 50 this year and its current season has been and continues to be one big victory lap. I'm just trying to count off on my fingers all the, you know, the self congratulatory moves that have been made. There have been commemorative concerts, rebroadcasts of special episodes. NBC released its own four part docuseries about the history of SNL last month. And all of this culminated this past weekend in a three hour plus long anniversary special that aired interestingly on Sunday night Twist. It's the Saturday Night Live 50th anniversary.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Special with musical guests Paul Simon and Sir Sabrina Carpenter.

[Alex Schwartz]

My butt was in the seat until 11pm at which point it showed no signs of slowing down and I had to, you know, trundle off to bed. How about you guys?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I made it through a critical mass, I would say. And the spirit of it was all there. Every sketch was dense with celebrity presence. Yeah, it was the Oscars of Saturday Night Live.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I felt like I wanted to be having more fun than I was having. And we'll discuss more in in depth because what we're doing today is we're looking at the staying power of Saturday Night Live, the key players and sketches that made the show the icon it is today. And we're going to talk about that icon status. Whether five decades in this thing that revolutionized comedy as a ragtag countercultural endeavor in the mid-70s is still essential TV to us in this year, 2025. Or is it even essential comedy that's today on critics at large? The enduring appeal of the SNL machine. To start off with critics, was there a time in your own lives when you were watching a lot of snl, like a period of the show's run that defined for you what SNL is, the essential?

[Nomi Frye]

Um, yeah, I think. I mean, it's often been said there's this kind of, like, chestnut that says, like, whatever period you of snl, you were watching in high school, you'll always think that's the best period. And for me, that's. I think that's definitely the case. You know, I think this was also compounded by the fact that I didn't grow up in America, and I only kind of came to America certain periods. And one of those periods. Periods was ninth grade. You know, I was 14. And that's when I really got into SNL. So this was like the early 90s, you know, Dana Car, like Wayne's World, like Dana Carvey, Mike Myers, you know, Farley, Chris Farley, Nora Dunn, Jan Hooks. Like, Sandler even started, you know, early Sandler. So for me, it had to do with, you know, becoming a teenager, I think, but it also had to do with wanting to know what it meant to be American, you know, wanting to know what the cultural conversation was about. Snl, for me, was one of the ways to kind of know what was funny, you know, like, which SNL cast members were considered cute or not, you know, who was like, you know, just that whole kind of vocabulary. I have to know what people are talking about.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, that seems like a great era to tune into.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Vincent, how about you?

[Vincent Cunningham]

For me, it sort of. I think it goes high school, through college, and then until the 08 election, like that decade which starts with Will Ferrell, Shari Oteri, Anna Gasteyer, this sort of, like, cockeyed approach to what I thought was kind of like an American suburbia. You know, Will Ferrell was always playing some version of a suburban dad. You know what I always tell my son, Nathan? Just go out there and try to have fun, you know? Well, you know, having fun is the name of the game. Hey, son, you trying to make an ass of me? Get on the bag. He and Sherri Oteri were doing the cheerleaders. There was a lot of sort of commentary on a world that I didn't quite know. But I was interested in Middle America or whatever that meant that to me is the decade that sort of. I look at all the other decades before and after through the prism of for better or worse.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I'm probably similar to you in that respect. I mean, I had an early moment of starting to watch in middle school and it just had with it the whole whiff of the kind of unallowed but allowed, like, oh, you can just make vicious fun of Alex Trebek. Amazing. Like, you know, America's Alex Trebek, America's Canadian dad.

[Vincent Cunningham]

For no reason.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, for no reason. Like, incredible. Whoa. Stuff like that. But later, SNL came to me as clips, the Andy Samberg clips, like Jizz in My Pants, Lazy Sunday, Dick in a Box. Take a Look Inside Is my In a Box. That same kind of like silly anarchic humor that you could also share, like trade around because it was clips at that point and not just appointment viewing. But speaking of appointment viewing, this past weekend we all sat down and watched this three hour long Bonanza anniversary special. And I want to know what you all made of it. What were the highlights for you? Or Lowlights?

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, I think it did a good job. I couldn't see it going any other way than it did. Which is to say it opened with Paul Simon, you know, SNL icon of the past 50 years, singing a duet with Sabrina Carpenter, the young bubbly, very popular pop star.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I sang this song with George Harrison on Saturday night live in 1976.

[Nomi Frye]

I was not born then and neither were my parents, you know, so big, big laugh there. And this kind of like the attempt to bridge the gap in a kind of like stately but humorous manner of like, this is a legacy event, you know. But we also have to always remember the youngsters trying to kind of like toe that line between history and kind of like the now.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I think that's a very elegant reading. I will just say I thought the song that Paul Simon and Sabrina Carpenter sang sounded awful. That's what Nina said.

[Nomi Frye]

My daughter, she was like, what's that?

[Alex Schwartz]

I was like, am I watching the right show? They're beginning with this somber song.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wasn't it Homeward Bound?

[Nomi Frye]

It was Homeward Bound.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It was Homeward Bound on a tour.

[Nomi Frye]

Of One Night to Stand.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And every stop is neatly planned for a poet and a one man band. This is one of my favorite songs. That that man has ever written, but they did in a weird rhythm.

[Alex Schwartz]

It was bad. Vincent, I'm not trying to be mean.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I love Paul Simon in a way that hurts my body, but, yeah, same, same.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm not trying to be mean. It was just. It felt like. I think they maybe took all the points that Nomi is so elegantly putting across, and it makes sense on paper, as you say, and then suddenly you get the real thing, which is snl. No, like, that's right. So much of SNL is what works, what doesn't work. I mean, one thing that struck me, and I'm curious to hear from you guys, of any favorite sketches of yours from the past came up because they were doing a bit of a greatest hit situation, and the selection of hits was a little random. You know, they had. I think the opening sketch was Fred Armisen as Lawrence Welk doing. And you have Kristen Wiig. I happen to love Kristen Wiig as that freaky character with the little hands and the high forehead who creeps everybody out. But.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Mixed in with Ferrell doing his classic Robert Goulet, it was a lot of stuff.

[Alex Schwartz]

Exactly.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. I. For me, I think that it actually clarified something. This show clarified something about snl, whereas I was like, what is the one? What is SNL about? Not what it was for in 1975, but what has it come to be about? And it really is a show about fame. It's like the promise is that we're gonna give you some people, some great percentage of whom will become famous. And of course, the mechanism of the celebrity host and the music guest is like, this is where people come to express that they have become famous. And famously, famously, Lorne Michaels, who created and showruns snl, he's a guy who does a lot of name dropping, a lot of the impressions of him, even by his proteges. Bill Hader has a great where he does Lorne Michaels name dropping famous serial killers. But every seat in the place was full of famous people. Everything, every mechanism was geared toward getting them on camera for as much time as they could.

[Nomi Frye]

Have you ever seen a heavier room?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It was crazy.

[Nomi Frye]

It was heavier than the Oscars.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It was unbelievable. And. And that showed me something about celebrities, too. They still take this thing seriously, and it's still like they all say the same thing when they're called on to be host. This is like my dream because it means fame. This is what the show is about. Getting famous people or soon to be famous people, to kind of play together in this sandbox. The sort of back. The self congratulation didn't play to me as a betrayal of the thing. It was like, no, no, no. This is a distillation of the thing.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, yeah, it was an absolute distillation. No question about it. Like, I did not for a second expect any surprises, I guess. I mean, the only types of surprises you can get are the surprises that are kind of inevitable in the sense of, like, oh, my God, there's like, yeah, a hugely successful actor who's doing a cameo, you know. Yeah. So I think you're totally right, But I think there is also, for better or worse, there's something about that kind of like expected inevitable self congratulation. There's something reassuring about it. There's something monocultural about it, at least trying to reassure itself and reassure us as viewers that we are still kind of like united around some mythical water cooler. Do you know what I mean?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, totally know what you mean. And I think, you know, NBC, which of course is the network behind Saturday Night Live, has been doing its absolute best to promote that vision. Like, we got this big show, this 50th anniversary show that we're talking about. There was also a docu series that NBC produced called SNL 50 Beyond Saturday Night, which came out last month.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And.

[Alex Schwartz]

And Vincent, you wrote about it. So what do you make of this thing?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, it takes, as a precondition, everything that we said, that people have frames of reference for this show that are sort of deeply embedded and mean things to them that sort of span place and time. So, for example, the first episode was all about people's audition experiences. But for me, the most interesting one was the last one, which was about SNL's weird year 85 through 86 season, which is when Lorne Michaels short story is, he's been away for five years after five years of initial success, and now he's back. And it was just a strange year where there was always a threat of being canceled. They were doing lots of weird experimental things, like having Francis Ford Coppola sort of quote unquote, direct a whole episode and make all of these weird intrusions into the sketches as they're really high concept stuff. Then, of course, before that, I was working very hard on Cheers.

[Alex Schwartz]

All right, cut.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Great, great. Well, why are we stopping now? Well, don't worry, George, you were great.

[Alex Schwartz]

But I want to get one more take, you know, just to be sure.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, that was kind of a joke, Francis. I don't know if they're gonna laugh again, you know, don't worry about it you stand by. Okay, let me talk to the folks. Folks.

[Alex Schwartz]

All right, folks, if I could have your attention, please.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What we're trying to do here is to create the illusion that the host, played by George, is going to tell you a joke. George. George. What's the funny part? Funny part? I guess it'd be towards the end.

[Nomi Frye]

Francis, that was awesome. Honestly, like, I didn't know that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Me either.

[Nomi Frye]

It was incredible.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It was so cool. But weirdly, the doc plays it as this was all a mess. Thank God that's over. And then Lauren figured out how the show should really run, and it goes happily ever after and becomes the machine that we all understand. And it made me be like, why don't they do this more? This sounds fun and daring and weird in keeping with maybe some of the originary ideas of the show, which we can talk about as we go, but I don't know. It was really alluring to me to think about that version of the show persisting, you know, to today. I'd love the Safdies to take over SNL for one. For an episode like this is what I'm talking about.

[Alex Schwartz]

You're saying more creative risk.

[Vincent Cunningham]

More creative risk. More feeling that this isn't just like an institution, but something that's really trying to intervene.

[Alex Schwartz]

In a minute, we go back to 1975, to the very first episode of SNL ever. This is Critics at Large from the New Yorker. Hi, I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior writer at Wired. I'm Michael Colori, Wired's Director of consumer tech and Culture. And I'm Zoe Schiffer, Director of Business and industry. And we're the host of Wired's Uncanny Valley. It's a show about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley Valley. Every week we get together to talk about how technology and culture from the Valley are influencing our everyday lives. The Internet really was no longer about the early days. It was about minting money. He was swapping out the hoodie for.

[Vincent Cunningham]

A suit, and it just became like the shorthand for, I'm the Silicon Valley hustle coder guy.

[Alex Schwartz]

Or we'll dive deep into the history of some of Silicon Valley's most important institutions and figures. So a lot of people point to parallels between Sam Altman and Steve Jobs. Very good for engagement, for meta, for its bottom line, possibly or probably bad for humanity. I don't know if there's any single.

[Nomi Frye]

Person that I would trust with this.

[Alex Schwartz]

Whether you're optimistic or absolutely terrified about what Silicon Valley will do next, this is the Podcast for you. We'll be there to bring the analysis and reporting you can only get from Wired. Listen to and follow Wired, Uncanny Valley, wherever you get your podcasts. So we've been talking about these anniversary events for Saturday Night live in its 50th season. What's the image that these events are putting forward of this show 50 years into its run?

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, I think Vincent said something that struck me just now. Vincent, you used the word machine, you know, as kind of an opposition to the kind of weirdness of that weird season 85, 86, where one of the things they said in the documentary and the particular episode when they were talking about this year of Lauren's return is that the kind of like, almost military, like, precision and schedule and rules that need to be in place, created, I think it's often said. And we'll talk a little bit more about Lorne Michaels in a bit. Created according to Lorne Michaels specifications and his habits that have become kind of like etched in stone over the years. You know, this is how this show is made. We do it like this. And this is the kind of comedy that emerges from this machine, you know, and this is something he's known to say that the show needs to be like a Snickers bar. Right? You have X amount of peanuts, X amount of chocolate, X amount. You know, it's like a dependable chemistry.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's a formula.

[Nomi Frye]

All of these events, to me, emphasized how army, like the whole thing is, or kind of like how tightly orchestrated the whole thing needs to be. Which, again, gives you kind of like, you'll get a Snickers bar, but do you want a Snickers bar? I mean, maybe sometimes you do, but maybe sometimes you don't.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. Vincent, I'm curious how it left all this lefty feeling about SNL at large.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, I. On some level, you can't help but respect anything that lasts for 50 years.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, my God, so much respect.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Titanic thing. Absolutely. The kind of conservatism that Naomi is rightly pointing out, this sort of formulaic way it comes to being is what it's like swimming in its own water. It's like, this is why it is so comforting. I started watching it with my wife again, and I just thought about this as I was on my way into the studio during the pandemic. Totally. Because it's something I understand. When SNL came back, I was watching that weird zoom episode and then continued. I was like, oh, snl. And continued to watch as it emerged from the pandemic. But this is because it has imprinted a set of rules, a formula, all the stuff that Nomi just said into my mind. And now I recognize it as something to be sort of, I don't know, calmed by. So that was really very much on my mind last night. You know, they did the SNL process, that weird week long process. They did it. I mean, this special was not something else. It was an episode of snl, a very long one, a really long one and a really star studded one. But it was just what the thing is all over again to a kind of alarming degree.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I'm trying to parse my own conflicted feelings a bit to the special because it's 50 years, you know, just ask the Rolling Stones. 50 years is a long time for something that felt countercultural and fresh to keep going. And when you last as long as SNL has, you know, you're in this place where maybe you're a little bit of victim of the own success. People want to hear the hits. But I'm wondering, we've all taken a look at the first episode of SNL, which premiered on October 11, 1975. So what struck you about watching that episode now?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, to our point about a certain kind of conservatism that we would associate the show with today, even though some of the many of the jokes that happen in that first episode are kind of lost on me. Right. Comedy ages like magazines do. Much of it is not evergreen in a very thrilling way. But it was clear that we were in the realm of the firmly countercultural. It opens up and down from the rafters of that famous studio, walks George Carlin with his slouchy sweater. Remember, Carlin started out trying to be kind of Bill Cosby or other kind of more buttoned up performers. He comes with this shaggy hair and he's making jokes about the military industrial complex. He's going into all kinds of areas that you could tell were actually hot buttons. But you know, football wants to be the national, the number one sport, national passport time. And I think it already is really, because football represents something. We are. We are Europe Junior. When you get right down to it, we're Europe Junior. We play the Europe game. What was the Europe game? Let's take their land away from them. You'll be the pink on the map. We'll be the blue and they'll be the green. Ground acquisition. And that's what football is. Football is a ground acquisition game. You knock the crap out of 11 guys and take their land away. From you, of course, we only do it 10 yards at a time. That's the way we did it with the Indians. One by little by little. First down in Ohio, Midwest to go.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. He's talking about football as an analogy for American imperialism.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right. Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Not a bit that, you know, would seem inappropriate today.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The bits are. Some of them are silly and just funny and weird, but many of them are just very abstract and high concept and have an idea of, you know, we're in on this thing. And if you're not, you know, maybe this isn't the show for you. It was. I have to say, it was really great. It was also great to see the last time Chevy Chase was even close to likable. It's the 50th anniversary of that, too.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Nomi Frye]

You know, it's very interesting to watch the first show today because it really is so different. There are some similarities. You know, there's, like, already kind of like a parody for, like, a medication brand, you know, that. Which is a kind of, like, bread and butter for snl.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Soon you're handling life again, feeling better and getting a firm grasp on the situation. Triopen, get your hands working again now with the new childproof safety cap.

[Nomi Frye]

Kind of peppy American commercial voice, you know, but it's so loose and shaggy. Just like the kind of, like, rawness of the performances, you know, I mean, like, Belushi, Dan Ankroyd, Gilda, you know, you see all of these, like, incredibly young faces that are kind of like they're unsure of themselves, you know, in ways which I think, again, kind of got hammered into place in the years after. It just feels like it comes from a totally different world.

[Alex Schwartz]

One thing that really struck me, going back to the first episode, was how weird a lot of the comedy probably would have seemed, and still does seem, but really would have seemed in the TV landscape of the time.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

Like, there's a cold open. The cold open sketch, which has come to be called the Wolverines, is just like. How do you even describe it? I guess you have Michael O'Donoghue, who's playing an English instructor who's teaching English to the great John Belushi, who appears to be an immigrant. But all the lessons have to do with wolverines.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Next. I am afraid. I am afraid. We are out. We are out. Would you accept. Would you accept a wolverine? A wolverine in its place? In its place. Next.

[Nomi Frye]

Haynet, exclaim.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Haynet, exclaim. Let's boil. Let's Boil the Wolverine.

[Alex Schwartz]

So that's like a Dada sketch that's just totally. And, you know, I just love that. Like, I love that they went for kooky and crazy. And, you know, our colleague Susan Morrison, we should talk about this, I think has just come out with a book about the history of snl, but specifically, it's a biography of Lorne Michaels, its creator and showrunner. The book is called Lorne, the Man who Invented Saturday Night Live, and an excerpt of it recently ran in the New Yorker. And one thing that I got from the book was just the landscape that this show was arriving into. Like, you know, there wasn't that much going on at this hour. The. The show came about because Johnny Carson didn't want his reruns to keep running on Saturday nights. So there was this kind of empty slot that had to be filled. And there really is a scrappy feeling around the creation of Saturday Night Live. You get Lorne Michaels, who's this Canadian guy who has himself done some comedy writing, done some comedy acting, has done tv, has been living in la, but hasn't yet totally made it is certainly not a brand name. Who someone would say, oh, yeah, let's just give it to this guy. But in this scrappy way, manages to get NBC to agree to give him, you know, some time to figure this thing out and to put all these completely unknown people on the air. And so that's the kind of, like, you only get one shot moment. This is it. Here it comes.

[Nomi Frye]

One thing that I found really interesting is that, and Susan, you know, kind of makes a point of it in the book, is that one of Lauren's kind of like, six senses was knowing when the music is changing. Right. Like feeling something in the air. Where one era, like, cusps, right. Another era is starting, and it's time to switch to entertainment. It's time to switch the music on the radio, right? And you don't want to be playing the music on the radio. That is the previous eras, right? You want to be, like, at the forefront of what's coming. And that is what he did with. With snl, and that is what he has kind of as the years have gone on. One of the reasons for his staying power, at least that's what the book argues, and it seems right to me, is his ability to kind of, like, know what the public is continuing to want. You know, you can't do yesterday's comedy.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. This question that you bring up, Alex, about, like, what is the new. Readers might want to go back and Read the first piece that the New Yorker ever did about snl, which was written. It's a great piece by Michael J. Arlin. And he talks about the former models, the Bob Hopes of the world, Carol Burnett, who, by the way, I still love. He's this really interesting piece about how these new comedians were, first of all, steeped in the language of psychoanalysis and therefore use their identities as a way through, quote unquote, political material. Whereas Bob Hope might make a glancing jab at the CIA, that really never punctured the CIA and also never punctured his own Persona, the new comedy would kind of look at these big systems through the prism of the self and use those larger institutions as a way to present more and more of the self to the audience. Another thing is about how the encroachment of English comedy into the American scene made it more interesting in America to play the eccentric, which had never really been a type in American comedy before. So the way, you know, Belushi as just like saying this weird Wolverine stuff, it's so both of those things. It's like, is this guy in some sort of psychological trouble? And also, wow, isn't it weird to just see somebody act weird for no reason? Isn't that funny on its own merits? You know, so present there. And, of course, Lorne Michaels, to the point of Susan's book, he was dancing between these two modes, the radically new and the sort of old kind of standup comedian and the old kind of sketch performer. And so it's really interesting. Yes, he kind of has an idea of what people want now. And largely because showbiz is created by SNL comedy movies. Other. They're all staffed by people who worked at snl. So it's hard to. This is where I landed in my piece. It's like, it's hard to subvert something that you helped create.

[Alex Schwartz]

You know, one thing that I saw Lorne Michaels say is that. Cause I think it had been speculated that he might step down after 50 years. And no, he's not. Et cetera, et cetera. But he'd specifically said, you know, oh, we're coming into a new political era. And that's kind of juice for the show. And I'm wondering a little bit what you guys make of SNL's take on politics. Because there was a political joke in the 50th anniversary special. It was a very fleeting moment. Steve Martin was doing a monologue, and he had Martin short kind of running in to steal his thunder, like a little bit of back and Forth between those guys.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The only Canadian who wasn't in Schitt's Creek.

[Alex Schwartz]

Thank you.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But, you know, wait a second. I thought we were hosting together. Oh, do you have your passport on you?

[Alex Schwartz]

No.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Ice, get him.

[Alex Schwartz]

No, no, I'll cooperate.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Don't take me. I'll name names.

[Alex Schwartz]

Ice chased after Martin Short, who's Canadian, to whisk him off the stage.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Right.

[Alex Schwartz]

So what'd you make of this?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I was trying to. And maybe the fact that I was trying to figure it out proves that it kind of worked a little bit. I don't know. But I was trying to figure out whether it was like a toothless gag that just kind of immediately gave way to the rest of the celebrity scene or if it was an actual sort of puncture in the fabric of the show. I was thinking about that little moment for kind of two sketches after, just trying to figure out, is that the show's way of saying, no, we still can engage. We can still. We plan in this new atmosphere, in this new administration, all this absolute chaos going on, not to just be this star machine, but to really tangle with the meat of what's going on. It made me. It did two things to me at once. It was like, can this show, as currently constructed, do that? Maybe, or maybe not. And that pushed me in the direction of maybe a slight amount of cynicism. But then it was like, but maybe they also want to try to do it. Which made me feel slightly hopeful. But I do think that that is the precise question, the precise pulling in both directions that will characterize this next couple of years of the show's existence.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I found it very weird and awkward as a joke. And I had a similar reaction, Vincent, of just being like, okay, I'm still thinking about that. So they got my head. But also like, what the hell? You have a bunch of ultra famous people, super rich people sitting in this audience, and there's a little ha, ha joke about a general horror that's actually taking place ruining lives and destroying families. And again, do I hear the liberal skull tone in my own voice? Of course I do. But it felt like, okay, you're trying to figure out where to put the punchline or where to put the target. It was a brief moment, but it was one that made me feel like, are you aware enough to handle this? I don't know.

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, it's just not a radical show. It's like, it's not a radical show in any direction. You know, it's not a leftist show by any means. You Know, it's a show made by an extremely wealthy man who has gained greatly from the entertainment industry. You know, one of the things in Susan's book is she kind of clarifies how to many of his proteges and, you know, cast members, favorite cast members have passed under him over the years. Lauren has become kind of like the embodiment of the good life and, you know, how to be a rich, tasteful man. But also, on the other hand, it's not radical in the sense of, like, it plays the 50 states. You know, it's monoculture or it hopes to be monoculture, and it's entertainment. It's not a political show. It's a show that does political humor sometimes, but it's not gonna make anyone very uncomfortable.

[Alex Schwartz]

She's a realist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nomi Frye]

And I don't think it's, you know, I don't come to the show expecting it to give, like, trenchant, radical critique of where we are as a country.

[Alex Schwartz]

I think that's quite fair.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

SNL is iconic, but is it actually funny? Critics at large from the New Yorker will be right back.

[Nomi Frye]

The run for Revoke is where you'll meet all the most exciting people in fashion and culture. I am Fran Libowitz, who should be.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The mayor of New York.

[Alex Schwartz]

We all support that.

[Nomi Frye]

We support that. Very nice, Nikki.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's been really great being in this beautiful pink room.

[Nomi Frye]

All right, Usher, can you hear us?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I can hear you. All right. Can you hear me?

[Nomi Frye]

We can.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We can. All right, here we are.

[Nomi Frye]

On the podcast, you'll learn how Vogue really works.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sometimes we'll come in for a second.

[Nomi Frye]

Or even third run through until we are awok.

[Alex Schwartz]

Can you tell us what awok means?

[Vincent Cunningham]

It means aw. Ok. Anna Winter. Ok.

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm Cho Menardi.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And I'm Chloe Mel.

[Nomi Frye]

And we're the hosts of the Run.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Through with Vogue, where fashion and culture collide.

[Nomi Frye]

Join us.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's awok. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alex Schwartz]

You know, I'm feeling vulnerable but confident here. May I just lay my cards on the table for a second, please?

[Nomi Frye]

Please do. This is a safe space.

[Alex Schwartz]

My greatest emotion associated with SNL is wanting to laugh. It's not laughing. It's wanting to. And I can think of, yes, I can think of a ton of counterexamples. I can think of my deep late aughts love for Stephane, you know, the club recommender played by Bill Hader. I can think of all kinds of things that SNL did that I loved and that amused Me, I was very into the Sarah Palin impressions in the Tina Fey era and the kind of meta commentary on how the writers don't even need to do anything that the show is writing itself. That said, when, if and when I sit down and I tune in and I'm saying, All right, it's 11:30, let's do this thing. I'm just wanting to crack the smile more often than I'm cracking a smile. And yes, I am well aware this is the oldest criticism in the book. There is like nothing more boring than claiming you don't find SNL that funny. And again, like I'm conflicted cause I respect the hell out of the performers and the crew and the whole deal and the crazy rehearsal process. And yet, and yet, you know, will someone fight me basically, is what I'm asking here. Will someone just come to the stand up for the honor of this 50 year old maiden and tell me that I'm, that I'm crazy?

[Nomi Frye]

No, you're not crazy. I think this is, I think that's just the way it is. And I think, and I think there's something about, you know, the gap between SNL's status as iconic institution that operates, as we've said, according to a set formula and the ability to make an across the board funny show every week. That's just the case. And I think it's kind of always been the case. And I think just like there are certain performers you gravitate towards and like, I'll always laugh at like anything Malaney is involved with is always funny to me. You know, anything Bill Hader was involved in was always funny to me. You know, it's like, it just has to do with like what you gravitate towards.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. I will say that we're in this weird stage where SNL really is more of a stable job than it used to be. It used to be seven seasons and then if you're a big star, you almost have to leave. There's a super senior effect that would start to cling to you if you were there for that too much longer than that now. Kenan Thompson is the most long running member of the show in its history. He's been there for maybe 25 of the 15 years. Unbelievable.

[Alex Schwartz]

A long time.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. And I believe that the update duo of Colin Jost and Michael Che is the longest running update duo as well. Update always makes me laugh still. I don't know why. I think I'm just used to, I love the rat a tat of jokes.

[Nomi Frye]

It's Just joke. It's jokes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's just jokes. And when they have one of the deskabits, when somebody brings their character just to interact with Michael and Colin, I just like it. There are definitely times to everybody's point where I get through a whole thing and I don't laugh, but I watch it because I do still rely on it to show me new people. Sarah Sherman is a kind of, wow, oddball weirdo who I find hilarious. She makes me laugh a lot. And I feel that SNL is designed to give me someone like that. And I'm grateful for that.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. You know, I appreciate what you guys are saying. I'm leaning into my own crankitude a little bit because, you know, I love a little bit of friction on the show. Like, we gotta have a little bit of push and pull here. And just in case anyone's confused, I love to laugh. Much like Noemi Frye and Vincent Cunningham, I can attest. Yeah. I'm not sitting stone faced, you know, like some kind of emperor saying, please me, please me more.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But your point is that you want to.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, my point is I want to. And there are many things, things on SNL that have just now I'm thinking about, but I'm going back a little bit far, but I'm thinking about the Hot Tub Lovers with Rachel Dratch and Will Ferrell and stuff that, you know, I guess what I'm saying is maybe I need to do a little more Vincenting. Maybe I need to just post up at 11:30.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Sit with the show.

[Alex Schwartz]

Sit with the show. Let it find me. Let me find it. Enough of this clips. Lifestyle.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, I wanna say something else. I have been kind of lucky enough to. Or I don't know, it's like in the past year or two, my daughter, newly A teenager, she's 13, has become a big, big SNL fan. She doesn't like all the performers. She says she also thinks it's uneven sometimes, but. But I get to see it through her eyes. Seeing her discover comedy through that and performers through that. And she's also very into performers of the past. Like, for her, deep, deep history is like the Andy Samberg era, you know, I love that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That makes me so happy.

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, she, like, for Halloween, this, like last year, she got dressed up as, like, Stephane, you know, that was her costume. Because for her, that's classic. And it is classic. There's something really lovely for me to see that and to see her entering the world of comedy through the conduit of this kind of like, rather you know, very mainstream organ. And then going from that maybe into other things as well, you know, it makes me kind of grateful that we still have this, like, institution.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. It's a rite of passage, not just for the performers, but also for the viewers in a way.

[Nomi Frye]

Definitely.

[Alex Schwartz]

Mm. Well, you know, looking forward to the next 50 years. Unless Lorne Michaels figures out how to preserve his organs to a state not currently known in nature, the show is going to have to have a new leader at some point.

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, and that leader is gonna be me. I'm announcing it now.

[Alex Schwartz]

Suddenly, I would fully support the Fry era.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm in. Ready to lead the coup.

[Alex Schwartz]

Do you. Do you critics have any idea, you know, if it can't be Nomi Fry, but you do have a magic wand to wave. Whom would you wave it in favor of?

[Vincent Cunningham]

If we want the show to be something like it has been, then the obvious answer is Tina Fey. Her sort of attunement to what is comedy, comedy's relationship to society. I think she is the one to extend Lorden's legacy into the future. But it's so interesting because now sketch comedy, partially under the influence of snl, has grown so many different tentacles. We have shows that are definitely not trying to be mass entertainment, like I Think youk Should Leave, Tim Robinson, Key and Peele, and all the different ways that sketch comedy has sort of developed its ways of working. So I don't know. But I do think that if Lauren has his druthers, which I bet you he will, he'll have a say. I would cast my lot with Tina Fey.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, I think I would, too. And there are far worse outcomes. I love Tina Fey.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah. And I think if what we're seeking as a nation, or even just as our own very own selves, is comfort and continuity, if we're not seeking a bloody revolution, can we hang on to a still point in the turning world, then? Yeah, that would probably be Tina Fey. If it can be Naomi Fry.

[Alex Schwartz]

Of course, you'll always have my vote.

[Vincent Cunningham]

On which is not a 4 Dunn.

[Alex Schwartz]

Let's just say that she's a member of the comedy community. It's true. And we're just putting it out there. You heard it here first.

[Nomi Frye]

Call me Suddenly.

[Alex Schwartz]

This has been critics at large. Our senior producer is Rhiannon Corby, and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Conde Nast's head of Global audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrato composed our theme music, and we had engineering help today from James Yost with mixing by Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at [e-mail] Critics hey podcast listeners. I'm Chris Marocco, food director of Bon Appetit and Epicurious and host of the Dinner SOS podcast. Every week on Dinner sos, my test kitchen colleagues and I help listeners figure out what they should be cooking right now. And this winter, we're helping you embrace all things cozy cooking, letting you join the Ba Bake Club and getting back to basics with simple strategies to level up your home cooking. So don't miss out. Listen to and follow Dinnersos wherever you get your podcasts, and if you have your own kitchen question, email us at dinnersosnappetit.com Happy cooking.

[Nomi Frye]

From PRX.