“The Studio” Pokes Fun at Hollywood’s Existential Struggle

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker
Episode: “The Studio” Pokes Fun at Hollywood’s Existential Struggle
Release Date: April 10, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Critics at Large, Vinson Cunningham, Naomi Fry, and Alex Schwartz delve into the intricate balance between artistic integrity and commercial demands within Hollywood, using Apple TV’s new series "The Studio" as their focal point. They explore how the show satirizes the perpetual tug-of-war between creating meaningful art and producing commercially viable content.

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Overview of "The Studio"

"The Studio" centers on Seth Rogen’s character, Matt Remick, a well-meaning yet somewhat inept studio executive striving to produce quality films while navigating the pressures of corporate expectations. The hosts discuss how Remick embodies a rare executive who genuinely values artistic expression over mere profit, creating a satirical portrayal of Hollywood's often cutthroat environment.

Notable Quote:

Nomi Fry [01:07]: "I'm talking, of course, about the tension between, on the one hand, great art and on the other hand, commerce."

Character Analysis and Themes

Matt Remick is depicted as an idealistic executive who clashes with both the artists seeking creative freedom and the studio’s commercial demands. This unique positioning makes him a satirical figure, highlighting the absurdity and challenges of maintaining artistic vision within a profit-driven industry.

Notable Quotes:

Alex Schwartz [03:10]: "Matt Remick...positions himself as an executive on the side of the artist that he legitimately believes in."

Vincent Cunningham [17:47]: "I think he's a loser."

Comparisons to Other Works

The hosts draw parallels between "The Studio" and other cultural pieces that explore similar themes:

• "Veep": Both shows feature hapless protagonists navigating complex systems, but while "Veep" portrays a cynical environment, "The Studio" introduces a character who remains optimistic amidst chaos.

• "The Player" (1992): They compare "The Studio" to Robert Altman’s film, noting similarities in depicting studio executives grappling with creative and commercial pressures.

• Pat Hobby Stories by F. Scott Fitzgerald: These stories illustrate the futile struggles of a screenwriter within Hollywood’s machinery, echoing "The Studio"’s themes of artistic struggle against commercial forces.

Notable Quote:

Alex Schwartz [07:18]: "They're both about big systems at work that the public is the result of."

Current Crisis in Hollywood

The discussion shifts to the present state of Hollywood, emphasizing the multifaceted crisis the industry faces:

• Declining Production in Los Angeles: Referencing Winston Cho’s article, they highlight how productions are moving out of LA due to lack of tax incentives and increasing competition from global markets.

• Shift Toward IP-Driven Content: The success of high-budget, commercially driven films like the "Minecraft" movie contrasts sharply with auteur-driven projects, reflecting a broader industry trend prioritizing proven IP over artistic experimentation.

• Impact of Strikes and External Factors: The lingering effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, combined with recent writers’ and actors’ strikes, have exacerbated Hollywood’s struggles, leading to tighter budgets and increased caution in project approvals.

Notable Quotes:

Alex Schwartz [35:35]: "The U.S. meanwhile saw a 35% decline [in live-action scripted titles]."

Nomi Fry [37:58]: "Nobody wants to take a chance on anything that's even slightly kind of unproven."

Art vs. Commerce: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives

The hosts explore how the art versus commerce debate has evolved over time:

• Classic Era: The studio system once held immense control, often stifling individual creativity in favor of profitable projects.

• New Hollywood (1970s): A shift where young auteurs began to assert more creative freedom, leading to groundbreaking films despite commercial risks.

• Modern Era: Today’s landscape is marked by a resurgence of IP-driven films alongside a struggling auteur movement, creating a polarized industry environment.

Notable Quotes:

Alex Schwartz [31:19]: "Shakespeare had to sell tickets. He was out there to get butts in seats. Virgil had a patron."

Insights and Conclusions

Despite the bleak outlook, the hosts find glimmers of hope in the persistence of creative individuals within the industry:

• Seth Rogen’s Role: Rogen’s portrayal of Matt Remick serves as a beacon for those hoping that seasoned Hollywood executives can still champion artistic endeavors.

• Independent Studios: The rise of indie studios like A24 symbolizes a potential path forward, where niche markets and targeted audiences can sustain artistic films outside the traditional studio system.

• Future Prospects: The anticipation surrounding upcoming auteur projects, such as Paul Thomas Anderson’s new film and Christopher Nolan’s "The Odyssey," suggests that there remains a dedicated space for art within Hollywood.

Notable Quotes:

Vincent Cunningham [43:22]: "As much as I love a newcomer, I wonder if now is the time for people who are seasoned in the way of Hollywood to really think about how it can be angled toward making art."

Alex Schwartz [44:55]: "I'm just out there to see what's coming, guys. I'm just along for the ride, as always."

Conclusion

"The Studio" serves as a timely reflection on Hollywood's ongoing struggle to balance artistic integrity with commercial success. Critics at Large effectively uses the series to explore these enduring tensions, drawing connections to historical precedents and current industry challenges. While Hollywood grapples with significant obstacles, the episode underscores the resilience and hope that creative visionaries continue to fuel the art of filmmaking.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Nomi Fry [01:07]: "I'm talking, of course, about the tension between, on the one hand, great art and on the other hand, commerce."
• Vincent Cunningham [17:47]: "I think he's a loser."
• Alex Schwartz [03:10]: "Matt Remick...positions himself as an executive on the side of the artist that he legitimately believes in."
• Alex Schwartz [07:18]: "They're both about big systems at work that the public is the result of."
• Alex Schwartz [31:19]: "Shakespeare had to sell tickets. He was out there to get butts in seats. Virgil had a patron."
• Alex Schwartz [35:35]: "The U.S. meanwhile saw a 35% decline [in live-action scripted titles]."
• Nomi Fry [37:58]: "Nobody wants to take a chance on anything that's even slightly kind of unproven."
• Vincent Cunningham [43:22]: "As much as I love a newcomer, I wonder if now is the time for people who are seasoned in the way of Hollywood to really think about how it can be angled toward making art."
• Alex Schwartz [44:55]: "I'm just out there to see what's coming, guys. I'm just along for the ride, as always."

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This comprehensive analysis provides listeners and readers with an in-depth understanding of "The Studio" and its commentary on Hollywood's eternal struggle between art and commerce. By weaving together perspectives on historical and current industry dynamics, Critics at Large offers valuable insights for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of film and television.

Transcript

[Nomi Fry]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Alex Schwartz]

Welcome to Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Alex Schwartz.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Nomi Fry]

And I'm Nomi Fry. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. Hi, guys.

[Alex Schwartz]

Hello.

[Nomi Fry]

So today, my friends, I will present you with an age old conflict. It's as classic as dogs versus cats. Oh, Coke versus Pepsi. Oh, Azealia Banks versus Elon Musk.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Oh, that's a tough. That's a big one. It's up there with that.

[Nomi Fry]

Well, I mean, we'll see, we'll see. But I think it might be. I'm talking, of course, about the tension between, on the one hand, great art and on the other hand, commerce.

[Alex Schwartz]

Ah, yes. Ah, yes.

[Nomi Fry]

Ah, yes.

[Alex Schwartz]

Truly a tale as old as time.

[Nomi Fry]

A tale as old as time. Pretty much wherever you sit in any artistic industry, this conflict is something that you have to grapple with. It's unavoidable, and it's something that art itself often grapples with. And one recent example of this is the Studio, a new show on Apple tv. It stars Seth Rogen as a frazzled, somewhat bumbling movie executive who's trying to walk that line between making great movies and having to sell them.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Thank you. What do I have now? A meeting with the Jenga people. Fuck, that's right.

[Nomi Fry]

Yesterday was Rube's Cuban, now Jenga.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Patty's the head of the studio. Her corporate overlords want us to make more movies based on known brands. So I gotta take these fucking meetings. So now what you do?

[Nomi Fry]

You make a Jenga movie?

[Vincent Cunningham]

No, you take the meeting and then you don't make the movie and you focus on making an actual good movie.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, my God, this is so depressing. I'm like 30 years too late to this industry.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I know. Trust me, if it was up to me, we'd be focusing on making the next Rosemary's Baby or Annie hall or, you know, some great film that wasn't directed by a pervert.

[Nomi Fry]

Turns out perverts make great movies.

[Vincent Cunningham]

They really do.

[Nomi Fry]

What struck you guys about the studio? I know we all watch several episodes. Specifically when it comes to this kind of eternal tug of war between art and commerce.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, One thing that struck me is that Seth Rogen's character, the studio executive he plays is on the art side. Because usually the way the conflict boils down is that the artists are the dreamers and the executives are the guys who are watching the bottom line. They're the ones who are gonna pay for this thing. They wanna make their money back. The artists just wanna make their dream. And the way that Matt Remick, Rogan's character positions himself is an executive on the side of the artist that he legitimately believes. And that of course, sets him up to be a certain kind of satiric figure because he's kind of at odds with everyone. He's at odds with the artists themselves, and he's at odds with the studio and trying to accommodate both.

[Nomi Fry]

Right, right. Vincent, what do you think?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, one thing I think is that Seth Rogen has never been better dressed in a movie or a television series. That's true. I think it's Commerce who really tailored those amazing lapels on these double breasted suits.

[Nomi Fry]

That Brunello Cuccinelli.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Cuccinelli suit. So I don't know, maybe Commerce has something to say.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, certainly, I think Commerce has a lot to say in this show. So today we're going to be talking about the studio. And not just about the studio, but about other works of art over the years that explored this tension between great art and the business behind it. And specifically in Hollywood, where that tension is paramount. And it's worth saying that we're at a moment right now when the movie business itself is especially strained. More than ever, the industry is beset by threats on all sides. We still haven't totally recovered from the COVID era. You've had the writers strike, the actors strike, AI, the LA fires recently. So what I'm wondering is, even though this is a familiar question, are we actually at a unique moment of crisis for Hollywood as a business and for movies themselves? That's today on critics at large, the studio and the existential struggle for Hollyw. Okay, guys, let's dive right in into the murky waters of Hollywood.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Shark infested waters.

[Nomi Fry]

Shark infested waters. Famously shark infested waters of Hollywood via the studio on Apple TV, a new TV show that's getting a lot of attention. We're four episodes into the 10 episode season right now. Who is going to step up to synopsize?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I will give it a go.

[Nomi Fry]

And go ahead, Vincent.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Matt Remick, as we meet him at the very beginning of the studio is a creative executive on the rise, who is very quickly, given the promotion of a lifetime. Being the head of Continental is the only job I've ever wanted. That is adorable. All right, well, listen, I honestly just have one strong reservation about you. Oh. I've heard you are really into artsy fartsy filmmaking. That you're obsessed with actors and directors liking you rather than being obsessed with making this studio as much money as possible.

[Nomi Fry]

Me?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. That could not be further from the truth. I am as bottom line oriented as anyone in this town. I believe you. Great.

[Nomi Fry]

Good, good.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Because at Continental, we don't make films, we make movies. Movies that people want to pay to see. Yes. So from the very beginning, this guy whose self conception is as like a cool executive who the first time we ever see him, he's on a. He's on a movie set and he's like, you know, he wants to give notes, he wants to be part of the vibe, he wants to hang out with actors and directors. It is essentially about the sort of slapstick disillusionment about this industry and what is possible within it and what is impossible with it.

[Alex Schwartz]

What this show reminded me of is actually something like Veep, which is Armando Inucci's brilliant show about the inside of the White House, because both shows are about hapless people. The big difference between a show like the studio and a show like Veep is that the studio is not cynical. It's dealing with a world of cynicism that is its backdrop. But it plants in the middle of that world. The only pure guy, the guy who really believes and really thinks that he can remain starry eyed, bright eyed and bushy tailed, whatever it may be. In the midst of all of this wrangling and dealing and wheeling. And of course, in Veep, everyone is rotten to their very cores, but it is a kind of choreography of ineptitude. And they're both about.

[Nomi Fry]

I love that term.

[Alex Schwartz]

They're both about like big systems at work that the public the result of. And revealing exactly how much haplessness, how much coincidence, how many accidents, how much stupidity contributes to the making of things that we just kind of receive and then evaluate as finished products.

[Nomi Fry]

That's a really good comparison. Yeah. I mean, did you like it? Did you like the studio? Was it funny? Were there things that especially stood out to you? Like, what was your feeling?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I should say that I am especially sort of open to the charms of Seth Rogen and his basically lifelong writing partner, Evan Goldberg. I think they're.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, they grew up together.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. I think they're really funny. Their movie. This is the end.

[Alex Schwartz]

Great movie.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I still remember going to with my friend Jose and us just like cracking up in an almost empty movie theater. Just like a great movie going experience. And I think that this is kind of for me and the studio I think is really, really great.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It is very, almost self consciously stylish, Very stylish. One of the things that I really dislike about the moment in quote unquote prestige TV is how many of the things kind of look the same. How much kind of over clarity there is in the resolution of even the cameras. Certain streaming shows. And do you mean.

[Nomi Fry]

What do you mean by over that's interesting. Like how there's a certain.

[Vincent Cunningham]

There's a certain clean camera.

[Nomi Fry]

You mean like severance or something like that?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I don't know. No, I like severance. Severance has a nice palette. But I don't know what. I'm not a camera buff. I'm not a gear. There's a certain look, especially on Netflix where it's just such hyper clarity. There's no grain. It seems like they all have the same cinematographer and cinematography.

[Nomi Fry]

It's not distinct in any way stylistically. The language is not.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. One of the things about the studio is that it is made out of a complete love for the movies and love for the sort of filmic arts. And it gets into this. Certain of the episodes, for example, one is about a missing reel, a missing reel of film on the set of a noir film. And so the episode is shot like a noir and it is shot on 35 millimeter film. It starts. It dawned on me as I was watching. I'm like, oh yeah, those lights out of focus in the back. This is film. Anyway, Veep is also a posit as a comparison because it really is kind of a joke, a minute kind of machine. It really is trying to have lots and lots of jokes. I don't know, it just. Ike Barinholtz is so funny in this.

[Nomi Fry]

He's funny. Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Chase Sui Wonders, who I did not know, plays like a sort of junior executive who's on the rise. She's good too.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

In Seth Rogen's wake. Awesome. Katherine Hahn is always funny to me and she plays this like sort of.

[Nomi Fry]

Like she's the head of marketing.

[Vincent Cunningham]

She's the head of marketing, but she's like she. She speaks like a TikTok. She's got like all the worst slang and is kind of the most one of the more cynical characters. She's like, get this bullshit out of here. You know, I am like very pro the studio and I found myself just wanting another episode every time one ended.

[Alex Schwartz]

The Kathryn Hahn random slang that has now infected my own brain is the word delulu for delusional.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh yeah, Delulu, Delulu.

[Alex Schwartz]

You're absolutely delulu. If you think that we are not gonna cut this crazy 35 minute rambling sequence about a motel in Ron Howard's otherwise action packed movie for the studio. That's the thing also about the show that we should say there tons of appearances and cameos from actual Hollywood people, which is so.

[Nomi Fry]

It's classic. That's classic.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's like a bag of candy.

[Nomi Fry]

It's just a bag of candy. I mean, this is, you know, it reminded me in that aspect of the beloved and beleaguered HBO show Entourage, which was kind of like an earlier depiction of kind of Hollywood and the making of movies and the clubs. So that was one of the kind of like the perhaps baser enjoyments of the studio.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. And at the same time, you know, you can see on the studio why people would want to participate as themselves. Why directors like Olivia Wilde or Martin Scorsese indeed would, or Ron Howard would want to appear as themselves. Because of course, the way the show works, they are positioned as the people with the dreams who have to deal with the killjoys at the studio to get their work made. So they get to kind of have fun and self parody at the same time as they really get to also pat themselves on the back for continuing to make movies. And this becomes apparent right at the start because as Vinson was setting up for us, Matt Remick becomes head of the studio immediately. And he is so excited. Cause now he's gonna get to support filmmakers and make films and not movies. And he's hit right from the top with a problem, which is that the big movie that his boss wants him to make is a Kool Aid picture.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm confused.

[Alex Schwartz]

Why are we making the Kool Aid movie?

[Vincent Cunningham]

You hate the stupid IP shit. You just gave this jerk off interview about how you wanna make cinematic works of art. I know. Look, Griffin Mill would only give me this job if I agreed to make the Kool Aid movie. Ah, yeah, okay, that makes a lot more sense. Because when this shit's announced, you're gonna look like a hypocrite.

[Alex Schwartz]

I was gonna say a idiot.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, unless we make the fancy version of Kool Aid, then I actually look like a genius. You know what the agent's got for us? Hey, Mitch Whites.

[Alex Schwartz]

So Remick is Disheartened. But then an amazing thing happens. In comes none other than Martin Scorsese.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Martin.

[Nomi Fry]

Marty Scorsese. Martin.

[Alex Schwartz]

Marty Scorsese. Who appears and says, I have a pitch for you. This is my dream movie. It's big. It involves everything. It involves the American government conspiracy. It's about Jim Jones, the leader of the famous cult.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Is that the massacre where everybody committed suicide by drinking Kool Aid? Exactly. That's the phrase. They drank the Kool Aid. Drink the Kool Aid.

[Alex Schwartz]

Whatever it is.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's the phrase. That's the climax of the picture. It's a big, big sequence. That's great. In a sense, I guess you could say that your film is about Kool Aid.

[Nomi Fry]

Well, I mean, yeah, in a sense.

[Alex Schwartz]

I guess in a sense.

[Nomi Fry]

In a sense.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Great, great, great.

[Alex Schwartz]

So this strikes Matt Remick as a thunderbolt. This is great news. We're making Kool Aid. Except, of course, it's not because the studio freaks out, the marketing freaks out. Everybody just loses their minds.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Hey, I know you love Martin Scorsese. His vision for this movie is going to bankrupt us. You need to show Griffin this teaser right now. I can't show Griffin this. This is nothing. This has no fucking story. It's nothing.

[Nomi Fry]

Who gives a shit if it has a story? He's gonna be delighted by the Kool.

[Alex Schwartz]

Aid man doing the Zae Zay show. This comes to this just meets a terrible end. And Nomi, just to go back to your question of whether I liked this. Yeah, yeah, I totally did. I think it's a really fun show. I think it appeals just like people get to the Hollywood. People get to feel good about their cameos. Those of us who love movies get to feel good about picking out references. And there's also a wholesome quality to this show that is on a certain side of corny. I think that's absolutely true, and I'm okay with that. But what did you make of it? Know me well.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay. As you guys know, and some listeners might have already gleaned over the past year and a half. I love. I love Hollywood. My life is a love letter to Hollywood. It's not really, but I just, you know, I love Holly. I love.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, it is.

[Nomi Fry]

I love. Yes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Put that in the memoir titles drawer. My life is a love letter to Hollywood. Just.

[Nomi Fry]

I love books about Hollywood. I love movies about Hollywood. I love TV about Hollywood. I love.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Let's face it, you are Hollywood.

[Nomi Fry]

Let's give it a break. I am Hollywood. And so, you know, and so this is kind of catnip for me, and I did enjoy it. Vincent, I totally agree with you. It's a beautiful show. Like, it's looks really good. Beautifully done, Beautifully done. LA looks great. I love Seth Rogen.

[Alex Schwartz]

I feel like the guillotine is just rising.

[Nomi Fry]

No, not guillotine. Let's not. I just feel like Seth Rogen's character just wasn't totally realistic to me because I. It's. It can't be both. Like, you can't somehow. It's not like a Chauncey. It's not a Chauncey Gardner situation where you have this kind of, like, total outsider suddenly finding himself plunked as the President of the United States. You know, like, it's couched as a realistic choice to have him be selected as a studio head. Right. And yet, over and over again, as I was watching this show, I was, why is this, like, totally bumbling dummy? How did he rise in this pool of sharks to the top? Like, I was like, how is this? Every set he goes on, every scene he's in, every new situation he finds himself in on this show, it's as if he's never done it before. Like, Pratt falls, Like, every second he, like, does something wrong, people are mad at him. Like, what is it that has brought this man to this place that he is? Because the whole world around him. And that's part of kind of the satire of the show. You see how almost everybody sucks? You know, it's kind of like a bad world, right? It's not a world where, like, oh, yeah, people are so nice to each other. It's based on, like, bonds of friendship and love and commerce doesn't play a part. This is like a bloodbath. Okay, sure. I really wanted to understand who this guy is and what is he doing there. And I'll say one last thing before we break, please. I know he's positioned as the guy who really cares about movies. Every reasoning he gives for why he loves movies or what it is about movies that is so important to him is completely vague and abstract and cliche as fuck. It's like the grain on this. On the film. I'm like, oh, really? Yeah. It's like, again, you're like, 50 years old. Why are you telling this to the projectionist? You know what I mean?

[Alex Schwartz]

But that's the joke.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. I think he's a loser.

[Alex Schwartz]

That's the joke.

[Nomi Fry]

But how then is he the studio head?

[Alex Schwartz]

Because that's the joke. The joke is these people are idiots. That this. Yeah, basically. And that this is A happy idiot. This is a pure idiot.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Naomi's browser furrowed, listening.

[Alex Schwartz]

She doesn't buy it. And that's cool. But let's imagine the pitch. The pitch meeting for the studio. I think the pitch is, what if our main guy is a studio exec, A type of person nobody likes, who everybody considers to be lame, who is a villain at best and a nobody at worst. And what if he is our hapless hero? He's in it for the love of the game. And he's called up in a kind of classic trope to march off. You know, he's Frodo. He's gotta get his stuff made. He's gotta make it through with the ring, which is all the cynicism and money and power that comes with being a Hollywood power player. And what if it's that guy?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

In this world. And I get Nomi. I totally get your issues with it. And I think all your issues with it are valid.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. I really wanted to love it more because in so many ways, it does do things right and depicts a world I wanna be in. But the gap maybe between satire, between hilarious satire and some kind of, like, realistic sense of what Hollywood really is, I just couldn't totally buy it. Art and commerce, Mortal enemies or strange bedfellows. Critics at large from the New Yorker will be right back. When you listen to Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone, the comedy podcast, you learn stuff.

[Alex Schwartz]

I've been learning to throw a boomerang. Cause this is the kind of thing.

[Nomi Fry]

That really, really gets the listeners engaged. You know, interviews with people who will make you smarter.

[Alex Schwartz]

Does the amount that you learn protect you from cognitive decline?

[Nomi Fry]

Paula, don't catch that. Can't people just listen to the show? Can't they just enjoy a delightful treehouse full of information And I think I'm bleeding.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Join us and be a nobody.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay, so before we get back to the episode, I have an announcement. Listeners, you asked, and it's our duty to answer.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes, we have now gotten enough emails in our inbox about this that we are gearing up for a follow up to one of our favorite episodes of Critics at Large, our advice episode called Help. I Need a Critic.

[Nomi Fry]

Help.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Help. In case you missed this episode from a few months ago, Go back, just take a listen. It's a great episode, and it's our version of an advice hotline show. You listeners got in touch with specific cultural dilemmas.

[Nomi Fry]

For instance, our listener Adam, whose therapist told him he should be looking for depictions of healthy relationships in films and novels. Imagine that. It's actually kind of hard to come by, so we helped him track down a few.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. Or Lucy, who wanted examples in literature of being a young adult in a state of arrested development. Vincent took it all the way back to Hamlet.

[Nomi Fry]

Never forget.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's true. Words, words, words. So, listeners, here's what we want. Send us your voicemails. We want to hear about whatever dilemma in culture that you are facing. It can really be anything. What exactly is bothering you? What's grinding those gears? The more specific, the better.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, make it fun. Make it painful. Make it spicy.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Send us something a little bit fucked up. We'll fix it.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, we're ready for the challenge.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

Oh, yeah. Send your voicemails to themailewyorker.com with the subject line critics, and you will be hearing from us.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay, now back to the episode. Okay, you guys. So we've been talking about the studio and its depiction of Hollywood today. What do you think the argument the studio is making is in relation to this art versus commerce question, at least in its first few episodes? I don't know how many you've watched so far.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think that one way to pose the argument is that. And I don't know that it's always arguing, by the way, but when it is arguing, I think it's something like this. Anytime something good appears in a movie, it is a miracle that there's a whole minefield of challenges, minds and potholes and all kinds of things standing between an idea and its execution.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And that to get anything done that is good is like a superhuman.

[Nomi Fry]

No, it's insane feat. And I think this is true. I mean, every time I hear friends who have anything to do with TV or movies or Hollywood, quote unquote, when they talk about a project, it's impossible. I don't know how anything ever gets made.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, Vincent, the one thing I would say, in contrast to the point you made about anything artistic being a miracle, is that I think the show plays both sides a little bit in a way that I find appealing. So it's not just because I think it would be a very. Maybe not flat, but it would be a different kind of satire to have the evil studio and the brave artists.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

For example, there's an episode that I mentioned before where Ron Howard has this movie called Alphabet City. It's set in the seventies in New York. It's gritty. Everyone is super.

[Nomi Fry]

That's really funny.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's very funny. So everyone is very excited watching this thing in the screening room. And then at the end of the episode, Anthony Mackie's character, a cab driver who it's implied, has been through hell on a Night to Remember.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

Suddenly gets dragged into the sequence at a motel with the ghost of a young child, it seems. And everyone just loses it. They fall asleep. It's ridiculous. The whole movie is ruined. And nobody can tell Ron Howard that this thing sucks, that he's ruined his own movie. Ron Howard, by going right up his own ass with this artsy stuff that apparently has to do with a cousin who died when he was a kid, has completely ruined his own movie. And that's where the critical judgment or commercial judgment kind of join hands.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right.

[Alex Schwartz]

And need to be saying, no, no, it can't just be about you, remember, the viewers. And so I like that this show plays both sides, right?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, that is true.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay, so one of the things I want to ask you guys about is how these themes that the studio raises have shown up throughout the history of Hollywood. Because there's a lot of examples. I mean, some of my favorites. I mean, I kept going back to the Player, to Robert Altman's the Player when I was watching the studio from 1992, which is exactly about that. It's about Tim Robbins as this studio executive, Griffin Mill, who is a kind of, like, slick and sleek businessman of Hollywood who's constantly getting pitched to. You know, there are several very famous scenes in the movie of, like, you know, a guy coming to him and saying, okay, the Graduate. But it's the sequel.

[Alex Schwartz]

Ben and Elaine are married still. They live in a big old spooky house up in Northern California somewhere. And Mrs. Robinson lives with them, her aging mother, who's had a stroke. Mrs. Robinson has a stroke, so she can't talk.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's gonna be funny.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, it'll be funny with a stroke. And weird and funny.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And with a stroke.

[Alex Schwartz]

Okay, maybe it's not a stroke. Maybe it's. I don't know.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Anyway, go on.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's a malady of some sort.

[Nomi Fry]

She's up there. It's hilarious. And the main conflict, in fact, is that there is a screenwriter who Griffin Mill suspects has been stalking him and writing him threatening letters because. Who's, like a kind of, like, real one, Right? He's not, like, into the schlock of Hollywood. He's like, I sent you the script. You never responded. Like, you'll pay, et cetera, et cetera. And Griffin Mill ends up killing him, murdering him. And the whole movie, he's covering it up. And so it becomes a kind of like, you know, noir while also being a satire of Hollywood. And so in that movie, the conflict between art and commerce is literally like the violence is done on the body of people. Love that movie. I just recently rewatched that, and I was like, God, yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

I just wanted to point out also that in a nod to the Player, the head honcho Bryan Cranston, in the show, the studio is also named Gryffind Mill.

[Nomi Fry]

Yes, Vincent. Can you think of any examples of past texts that have explored this question?

[Vincent Cunningham]

One of my favorites I read recently might have only been two or three years ago, of Scott Fitzgerald's Pat Hobby stories. There are these darkly comic, sort of maybe light on the surface short stories that were published in Esquire between 1940 and 41, about a sort of screenwriter who has kind of had his moment a long time ago. He's kind of a trickster figure and kind of just a loser who hangs around a studio trying to find just enough work to stick around and get, you know, his free lunch at the studio commissary. One of the funnier ones is Pat is employed by an executive to go track down another writer to remember just one detail of this idea that he'd given the executive. Pat Hobby goes out drinking with the guy. There's this whole kerfuffle. There's a fight at the bar. And then after all of this stuff, he has to testify in court. Then he gets back to the executive and realizes that he, too, has forgotten the detail. Like he's forgotten that moment in the story.

[Nomi Fry]

Right, right.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And it's just like this picture of everybody's stupid in these. Like, nobody comes off well.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Obviously based in part on Fitzgerald's own sort of travails in Hollywood.

[Nomi Fry]

Famously never had anything produced.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right. And so you can see what his estimation of that business was from those stories.

[Nomi Fry]

They're pretty good, Alex.

[Alex Schwartz]

Delicious.

[Nomi Fry]

Do you have any favorite texts?

[Alex Schwartz]

I do. One of my absolute favorites is Lillian Ross's account in this very magazine of the making of John Huston's Star Crossed movie, the Red Badge of Courage. This was published in multiple parts in the New Yorker in 1952 and was later turned into a book called Picture. It's amazing in a lot of ways. One way is purely on the level of access and craft, which the three of us in the room, I think would all kill to be able to just spend the kind of unfettered time that Lillian Ross had with no one getting in the way. No publicist saying his schedule has 20 minutes for you on this one. One day you can meet in this cafe and then that's it. Just being able to trail the whole process not only behind John Huston, the director and screenwriter of the Red Badge of Courage, but also she got into the studio and she got to see what happened when, after Huston finished shooting the movie, the studio just ravages his film. Yeah, they. They cut pieces, they add pieces, they do voiceovers. They just crucify this thing. And she just gets every part in this tragicomedy of what goes into making this movie. I mean, you have. I just had picked out a few choice lines from the second part of the article. She's summarizing at the top what has happened to even get to this point. So there are all these different players. There is Louis B. Mayer, the head of mgm.

[Nomi Fry]

I should note she describes him as a man who has. Whose large head seems set upon the shoulders without an intervening neck.

[Alex Schwartz]

Just brilliant.

[Nomi Fry]

Just so amazing.

[Alex Schwartz]

Just brilliant. There's Dory Shari, who's the vice president in charge of production, who is going to bat for the Red Badge of Courage. We get the following summary. Shari had said to them, boys, we'll make this picture. Stop worrying. Just go ahead and make the picture. Mayor had said to them, I wouldn't make this picture. You want to make this picture? Dory wants to make this picture. All right, make this picture now. As the rehearsals approached, Reinhardt, who's a producer, kept repeating to Houston that they would make a great picture. The picture would be profitable to Loews Inc. And at the same time, it would duplicate the quality of the Stephen Crane novel and be great artistically.

[Nomi Fry]

So that's actually very Matt Remick. It's very like, let's do the Kool Aid movie by Scorsese.

[Alex Schwartz]

Exactly. So studio.

[Nomi Fry]

Studio is happy, Koolaid is happy. Scorsese is happy.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah, it's just so great.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, the thing is, you know, the question I have to you guys is. This is from 1952, Alex. So this, you know, this is many years ago already. You know, it's nearly three quarters of a century ago, the relationship between art and commerce was different than what it is now. Like, can we draw some sort of arc over the century that Hollywood has existed, the movie industry has existed.

[Alex Schwartz]

Or, I mean, beyond that, Shakespeare had to sell tickets. He did. He was out there to get butts in seats. Virgil had a patron. He was writing for Augustus. He was there to praise that dude because he had to, because he Wanted to keep his job. This is the nature of the business. As Bob Dylan sang and as I may have quoted on this podcast and rings in my head once a day, you're gonna have to serve somebody. And so that is this whole thing. And I think that a lot of it does seem to be a cat and mouse game. And that's when the depiction gets really fun. You both have to cajole and convince and maybe threaten, though the artist is never in a position to threaten. It's the studio, the head honchos who have the power who can do the threatening. And it's the artists who have to cajole and also sneak. And that is what gives this dynamic some pizazz, some fun. I think, you know, in the eras that we think of in Hollywood because we do tend to define them by what the studios were up to, there's the first great studio era when Hollywood came into its own and the studios did control everybody and everything. You had to contract with the studio, you couldn't get out of those contracts. Very challenging for actors, challenging for directors. And the studios had all this power. That system starts to crack and in comes this era that I think a lot of us idealize and perhaps probably rightly so, new Hollywood. When the power flips again and young filmmakers are making movies cheap, they're not attached to big studios. And then of course what happens is, what always happens, studios, the big machinery of commerce catches up and goes hunting for those people and you get a kind of unholy combination perhaps. And yeah, I wonder where you guys think we are now. I mean, in some ways I think we are at an era of indies and indie studios like A24. Everyone talks about A24, but you still very much have the studios operating except that the business is really bad. I think there's a very real question about Hollywood's survival in a way that is a little bit different than the past.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, I think that's the question that I want to get to with you guys. Critics at large from the New Yorker. We'll be right back.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Hi, I'm Alex Goldman, host of the Hyper Fixed podcast.

[Alex Schwartz]

Each week we take listeners problems and.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Try to solve them for them.

[Nomi Fry]

Problems like I'm 30 and I'm scared.

[Alex Schwartz]

To drive in New York or why.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Can'T I adjust the volume of my car stereo when I'm in reverse? We also solve non car related problems. If you have a problem, not only will we fix it, we'll expose the hidden systems that caused that problem in the first place. That's the Hyper podcast from Radiotopia. Find it wherever you find podcasts [e-mail].

[Nomi Fry]

I think the one thing the studio gets really right is that it's very, very hard to get movies made right now, let alone, gasp, good ones. Right. And something that we hear a lot is that Hollywood is in crisis. What are some of the factors of this crisis?

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, I myself was curious about this and I read an article, a sobering article, shall we say, especially if you were Matt Remick, called why Los Angeles is Becoming a Production Graveyard in the Hollywood Reporter, which is a publication I really love, by Winston Cho. This was published last October, and it's just a litany of why Hollywood is screwing it up and why people wanna make stuff elsewhere. It starts with MasterChef, which is not something a TV show, not something I associate necessarily with Hollywood, but it's been filmed on a soundstage in Los Angeles for years and now it's moving to Australia because they just don't have the tax credits to shoot in California. And other places are starting to get really competitive. And it turns out that this is, you know, a big thing happening across the industry.

[Nomi Fry]

Can this be solved by President Trump's tariffs?

[Alex Schwartz]

I'm sure it can.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay. Sorry.

[Alex Schwartz]

My God.

[Nomi Fry]

Just had to, you know, just when.

[Alex Schwartz]

I was putting them out of my mind, pull me back in. But there are, there's a lot of really interesting examples here. The shoot days happening in Los Angeles are at historically low levels, which is astounding to me. There's a little graph here that actually looks not unlike the stock market since tariffs were announced. It's just going down, down, down.

[Nomi Fry]

Beautiful.

[Alex Schwartz]

The UK and Canada in the last quarter each saw more live action scripted titles with budgets of at least $10 million actively filming. The U.S. meanwhile, saw a 35% decline. So Los Angeles in particular, but the U.S. in general is really on the downswing. And I think there are some real questions about whether Hollywood can and will bring business back. You know, as we know, there's always talk about Hollywood in crisis and always anxiety. And of course, the push, pull over money. I think it's serious. I think it's serious. I'm an outsider. It seems pretty serious to me. Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

This is anecdotal, but since the writers strike, people I know who are writers, producers. I've been hearing this from several people. Again, anecdotal, but I think it points to a larger problem. Nothing is selling. The purse strings are being tightened. The streamers, which in the past, you know, seem to Just throw mad money at anything. Are suddenly kind of like shops closed, like, no, not buying this. Everyone is really nervous. Nobody wants to take a chance on anything that's even slightly kind of unproven. And I know in 2024, the kind of like aphorism or term that I kept hearing was stay alive till 25, which is like, next year, you know, 2024 is a wash. So I don't know though, if things have become markedly picked back up better at all.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, this show does seem to me, and I don't know that answer either, of course, but this show does seem to me to contain traces of that same anxiety. So after the blow up with Scorsese, they can't make his picture. And what Marty says is like, I know I should have made this with Apple tv. It's like the streaming thing or.

[Nomi Fry]

Which is also, again, a similar flex. That's right, because the show is of course on Apple tv.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's all this like, game, right? And then on the newest episode, the Missing Reel, it's among other things, it's like a mystery about this missing reel of film, as I mentioned earlier, and one of Remick's, I mean, it is a self important sort of narcissistic worry that he has, but he's like, if I fuck this up, no film studio will ever make a movie on film again. He's thinking about a certain extinction level crisis that the movies are in. And so part of his sort of, I love the movies, whatever, is he understands himself, rightly or wrongly, as the last of some kind of thing, as the last of a kind of desire to make movies. Otherwise it'll be all Kool Aid or whatever. So I think that all.

[Nomi Fry]

Or TikTok. Koolaid or TikTok.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right. So all of these anxieties, I think are part of the. Perhaps not the text of the studio, but it is kind of the hum of anxiety beneath its creation, I think.

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, to this I have two data points from the real world I would like to introduce, please, data point number one. We all recently live blogged the Oscars. So we all watch the Oscars and we did stay awake to the very end. And what we.

[Nomi Fry]

We had no choice.

[Alex Schwartz]

We had no choice. Judy called and what we found out at the very end was that the winner of best picture for 2025 was Enora, directed by Sean Baker, which was made for very little money, I think around a $6 million budget and grossed $55 million, which is very nice for Anora, but small Potatoes in the world of Hollywood and is one of the lowest grossing best picture winners in recent history. So Honora was, by the way, shot on 35 millimeter film.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It was gorgeous.

[Alex Schwartz]

So here you have Hollywood congratulating a movie that really throws back and maybe forward, but certainly back to an idea of what the movies could be. Smaller auteurist by Sean Baker, who has really been outside of the Hollywood machine before this moment. Not costing a lot of money made on film. You have Hollywood celebrating that and at the same time you have this deep, deep commercial anxiety. Just yesterday what I saw is that a little picture called a Minecraft movie.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Ooh.

[Alex Schwartz]

Has struck gold at the box office with a record breaking opening weekend grossing $157 million domestically, $301 million globally. This is on $150 million budget. It's raining Minecraft.

[Nomi Fry]

USA. USA.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, I'll be.

[Alex Schwartz]

Those little blocks are made of solid platinum, baby.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Wow.

[Alex Schwartz]

Jack em up all the way to the heavens.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, it's raining blocks.

[Alex Schwartz]

It's raining.

[Nomi Fry]

Make it rain blocks.

[Alex Schwartz]

And what's particularly make it rain blocks, that was the unofficial tagline of Minecraft movie unknown to most. What makes this particularly funny in light of the episode we're recording today is that this movie is produced by Warner Brothers. And Warner Brothers has an executive, David Zaslav, who came from TV and who has just gotten the worst press I've ever seen a person get. It's just, you know, there was just an article in the Times a few days ago. David Zaslav promised to revive the storied film studio when he took over Warner Brothers Discovery. That was three years ago. It's just been stinkeroo after stinkeroo. Stinkeroo. He also ruined cnn. It's just not. He's having a reverse Midas touch, you know, David Zaslav, I'm glad you can have your martini tonight or whatever you want, your green juice, whatever it is, and just know that it's raining platinum little blocks in the world of Minecraft. But that's the reality. The reality is that I think like Hollywood is letting out a huge sigh of relief that Minecraft, you know, they don't want anoras. Anoras are all very nice, but they're not letting anybody sleep well in their houses in the Hollywood Hills. They're not.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's right. No, I mean it is an all out assault on Zas. Who Zaslav, who's like, yeah, that's his little tabloid nickname, is said to not want to hear anything about these director LED films, auteurism, art making. And he's like, enough. We need more ip. We need more Minecraft. And so there are people working in charge of these studios right now who want Commerce to finally shut down this little opposition that we're tracking through time. No more. He wants Commerce to finally win over art. Others have desired it. He wants to finish it. That's all I'm saying.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, yeah. Zaz, to Commerce. You complete me.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, so, guys, where does Hollywood go from here? Are there any bright spots? Do you feel hopeful in any way?

[Vincent Cunningham]

The studio makes me feel hopeful.

[Nomi Fry]

Okay, that's nice. Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. The fact of Rogen's tenure in Hollywood is actually something that puts me in mind of. A favorite argument of our colleague Richard Brody is that the early auteurs were people who could. Who knew Hollywood and could use it as a kind of instrument, who could marshal its resources in favor, you know, toward the benefit of their vision. You know? And so as much as I love a newcomer, I wonder if now is the time for people who are sort of seasoned in the way of Hollywood to, like, really think about how it can be angled toward making art.

[Nomi Fry]

I mean, there's a bit of irony, right. That's like what makes you hopeful as a TV show. Right. Rather than kind of like, oh, cinema.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, cinema, which is kind of. You know, it's a kind of reverse of the prevailing narrative. Right. There was a moment where TV was ascendant and the movie. I think now people are largely saying, oh, TV has reverted to sort of more conservative tropes. There's less autourism in television, and people at least talk about movies more than they had maybe 10 years ago. Right. Rogan, I think here is showing that there's still space on tv, in film, wherever, for somebody to kind of look out from behind the camera and kind of wink at us, which, no, definitely I'm heartened by.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah. Yeah. Alex, what do you think?

[Alex Schwartz]

Well, I think it's all mashed up right now in a way that's pretty interesting. Like, I'm thinking again about the Oscars, whereas the previous year, when Oppenheimer. Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer really swept. Oppenheimer, I think, was a classic example of our and Commerce meeting. We can say a lot of things about Oppenheimer. Yes. I think we could critique it pretty thoroughly if we ever wanted to sit down and do that. But what if he.

[Nomi Fry]

Do it now.

[Alex Schwartz]

Do it now. Just do it now.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It has the texture of a movie trailer for the first two hours. How about that.

[Nomi Fry]

Well, bam.

[Alex Schwartz]

He went for it, folks. He just did it. That was pithy. That was good. That's what criticism is all about. Sometimes you have to do it on the fly. Woo.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It's a good town, baby.

[Nomi Fry]

It's like the drum, the drumbeat in the background of the studio.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Anyway.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes. So that was a marriage of both.

[Nomi Fry]

Ceremic's dream, right?

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes, that's Remik's dream, I would say.

[Nomi Fry]

And in fact he name checks Barbie as the kind of like let's make Kool Aid. Yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

If we have to.

[Nomi Fry]

The sort of Greta Gerwig ex Mattel thing, you know.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yes, yes. If we have to do a product placement movie, let's do it in that we can feel proud of.

[Nomi Fry]

Absolutely.

[Alex Schwartz]

So I think it's all shifting around and jumbled up and we're not gonna see the end of this debate anytime soon. I think we are gonna see more Kool Aid Men movies.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alex Schwartz]

More ip. That's not going away.

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

No.

[Nomi Fry]

I'm wondering if there's like, you know, Alex, you talked about the studio system collapsing or kind of slowly becoming sclerotic, I guess in the 60s and the New Hollywood of the 70s emerging from that kind of young auteurs touching riskier subjects. I'm wondering if like, do you foresee a similar kind of like emergence of a silver lining from the kind of like top heavy failing Hollywood of now? Perhaps, like what might happen?

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think, I mean, Alex mentioned before. I do think that 824 stands out as a. And is certainly trying to brand itself as standing out as the kind of next gen realization to the point where it's almost like sort of a genre. A 24 movie is more of a genre than a market, you know, than like a, I don't know, relationship to commerce. And I do wonder if the next move will be letting many A24s bloom more people trying to create entities like that and targeting them specifically because now everybody has to be kind of micro targeted. Are you someone who likes art cinema, you know, and really trying to slice and dice audiences in a way that might be further corrosive to our ideas of like, you know, mass culture or whatever, but targeting people who subscribe to the Criterion Channel or whatever?

[Nomi Fry]

Yeah, I mean, making movies just for them to produce the substance.

[Vincent Cunningham]

There you go.

[Nomi Fry]

Which was relative to the kind of budget and profile of the company was a great success. You know, Oscar nominee Demi Moore and so on. So yeah, I think there's a lot to. What you're saying is There any movie that you're looking forward to that might renew our hopes in the art of cinema?

[Alex Schwartz]

I mean, my hopes are not gone. Let's just be clear. My hopes are not in the ground. The studio is not making me sad, the state of things. I'm very happy for the Minecraft people, but that's, you know, it's not depressing me or elating me.

[Nomi Fry]

Let's pop open a bottle of champers.

[Alex Schwartz]

Yeah. I'm just out there to see what's coming, guys. I'm just. I'm going along. I'm along for the ride, as always.

[Nomi Fry]

I, too, am along for the ride.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You know what I'm really excited for?

[Alex Schwartz]

What?

[Vincent Cunningham]

First of all, Paul Thomas Anderson has a new movie coming out.

[Nomi Fry]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And that's always, like, the one I'm always like, oh, yeah.

[Nomi Fry]

You know, it'll be something interesting.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Great filmmaker, people will watch it. Cool. But I'm also interested for to see and I don't know even when it comes out. Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey. Oh, I can't wait. Cause, you know, one thing that I think of, like, a place where the movies, as an industry can display artistry is on, like, epic material. It's like, I want to see Nolan's Odyssey. I want to see. There's no more. We need Hollywood epics back. Last episode, I was talking about how I'm reading Zora Neale Hurston's man of the Mountain. Somebody make a new Moses flick. I want to see that again. You know, I think, go big. Go big. This is me being Matt Remick. I think that we can get a big movie that people. That a real artist can wrangle some huge material. That's what I want to see. Huge material wrangled into form by an artist.

[Alex Schwartz]

Strap Matt Damon to the mast of a ship, send him past those sirens, and let's see what happens.

[Nomi Fry]

Let's fucking go.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Let's fucking go, man.

[Nomi Fry]

This has been Critics at Large. Our senior producer is Rhiannon and Alex Barish is our consulting editor. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino Condon Ask's head of Global Audio is Chris Bannon. Alexis Quadrado composed our theme music, and we had engineering help today from Vince Fairchild with mixing by Mike Kutchman. You can find every episode of Critics at large@New Yorker.com critics. See you next week.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Hi, folks. Let me see if I can sum up Midnight burger in about 25 seconds.

[Nomi Fry]

Really big monster, zero irony. Pardon me, Gloria. Might my husband and I have a word?

[Vincent Cunningham]

The radio is talking to me. So this is how it ends. Eaten by wolves in space.

[Nomi Fry]

There's a pocket dimension in the deep freeze.

[Alex Schwartz]

This is the stupidest dystopia we've ever been to.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What the hell? Is that?

[Nomi Fry]

Because you're having a cigarette in 415 million BC.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Where are we?

[Nomi Fry]

Space.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Can you narrow that down?

[Nomi Fry]

The bad part? Ava? Yeah, that didn't work at all.

[Vincent Cunningham]

At the Nexus of all things, there is a diner. Look for midnight burger on your favorite podcasting app, or just go to weopenat6.com.

[Nomi Fry]

From PRX.