What “Michael” Tries to Show—or Hide

Summary

Critics at Large | The New Yorker

Episode: What “Michael” Tries to Show—or Hide (April 30, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Critics at Large tackles the newly released Michael Jackson biopic, Michael, analyzing not only the film’s portrayal of the King of Pop but also Jackson's enduring legacy and the ethical and cultural dilemmas that surround his life and art. Hosts Vinson Cunningham and Nomi Fry are joined by staff writer and pop music critic Kelefa Sanneh (sitting in for Alexandra Schwartz) to examine the popularity and controversy of Jackson as a global icon, the film industry’s handling of his legacy, and the broader cultural questions about celebrity, art, and morality.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Michael Jackson’s Cultural Resurgence and the Success of Michael

• Box Office Impact
  • The film Michael has grossed $217 million worldwide on opening weekend, setting a record for biopics.
  • “There's a big hunger. People are really excited about getting a chance to go into a movie theater and hear his songs really loud and celebrate that… It's partly nostalgia, but it's partly the fact that his music still feels like it's here with us.” — Kel Fassene [03:44]
• Jackson’s Ever-Present Influence
  • “I can't think actually maybe Madonna… It's hard for me to think of another artist who is as present over the course of my life.” — Nomi Frye [06:02]
• Early personal memories of Jackson from each host highlight how universally embedded his music is.

Film Recap and the Question of Omission

• Behind the Film: Production and Framing

  • Michael is directed by Antoine Fuqua and stars Jafaar Jackson (Michael’s nephew). The film was made in close collaboration with the Jackson estate to secure music rights [09:59].
  • The original script included scenes depicting Jackson’s legal troubles and Neverland Ranch raid, but these were cut due to legal constraints from a settlement agreement related to past accusations [12:06].
  • The film ends in the late 1980s, before public allegations surface.

• Handling of Abuse Allegations

  • “How do we make a film about Michael Jackson that doesn’t depict these things? … Basically what they decided to do was end the film in the late ’80s.” — Kel Fassene [13:59]
  • “It’s both avoidant and, in this avoidance, it is a defense because it kind of corrals us sweetly into forgetting.” — Nomi Frye [16:57]
  • “It seemed more sinister than avoidance. The movie was sort of grooming me into believing that Michael Jackson hadn’t allegedly done any of the things…” — Vincent Cunningham [16:38]

The Power, Appeal, and Ethics of Pop Stardom

Michael as a Prism: Child Stardom [25:45]

• Discussion of the toll of early fame, Jackson as an early case of the “child star gone wrong” trope, and the persistent issues of parental exploitation in show business.
• “The pusher as parent, that really scares us, this specter of abuse.” — Vincent Cunningham [28:50]
• Fassene pushes back on the assumption that audiences are responsible for stars’ suffering, suggesting the parent/child dynamic is key but cautioning against over-emphasizing the effects of fame itself [27:36].

Separating Art from Artist: The Legacy of Abuse Allegations

• The 2019 documentary Leaving Neverland and its impact:
  • “It wasn’t so much… oh my gosh, he might be guilty, but it was the idea of having to think in detail about these allegations and how horrific they are.” – Kel Fassene [33:25]
  • The documentary’s removal from HBO after legal action by the Jackson estate is discussed, illustrating ongoing battles over narrative and legacy [35:56].
• How do we listen to music differently after such accusations?
  • “Some years pass and obviously the fact that Michael Jackson is dead. And so the songs start creeping back into the mainstream… you hear Michael Jackson songs more often than you hear R. Kelly songs or something, right? And there’s levels to this based on the level of fame, the level of accusation.” — Kel Fassene [35:20]

The Role of the Law and the Limits of Justice

• “Michael Jackson was never convicted of anything. And so I think this is one of those areas where the law actually matters. Like when we see somebody’s convicted and they go to jail, … It’s been decided. And there’s enough ambiguity with Michael Jackson where his music is still around.” — Vincent Cunningham [39:44]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the Movie’s Structure and Intent:
  • “This is why I totally agree about Colman Domingo’s performance… it is really a story about Michael’s repeated attempts to break free of his father.” — Vincent Cunningham [14:13]
  • “Colman Domingo ... the way his face moves, it’s kind of like we’re seeing that big face and those big eyes through Michael Jackson’s eyes.” — Kel Fassene [10:59]
• On Avoidance of Allegations:
  • “It seemed like the movie was sort of grooming me into believing that Michael Jackson hadn’t allegedly done any of the things that he’s later been said to do. And so that I resented and thought was kind of like a little bit evil.” — Vincent Cunningham [16:46]
• On Being Moved by the Music:
  • “It did get me. And it did get me with the music. I must admit.” — Nomi Frye [18:03]
• On Comparing Stars:
  • “Maybe in some cases sounds too much like him to fit comfortably onto a playlist. Because you’re like, that’s Michael Jackson.” — Kel Fassene [49:10]
  • “Who's our Michael Jackson today?” — Nomi Frye [51:02]
  • “Taylor.” — Kel Fassene [51:15]
  • “I’ve been thinking about Justin Bieber … just this idea of someone who seems to really be showing the strain of having been who he is for a long time…” — Vincent Cunningham [51:24]

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Important Timestamps

• 03:44 — Discussion of Michael Jackson’s cultural impact and the huge box office of the biopic
• 12:06 — Details on how legal settlements forced the movie to omit key events related to allegations
• 16:38 — Hosts’ reactions to the film’s approach to abuse allegations
• 25:45 — Michael Jackson as the archetypal exploited child star
• 32:35 — Leaving Neverland documentary and cultural ramifications
• 36:56 — The Jackson estate’s role in controlling the narrative, pulling the documentary
• 39:44 — The role of the law in shaping Jackson’s posthumous legacy
• 45:37 — Authenticity, image, and artifice in pop music, as played out in Jackson’s life and career
• 51:02 — Who is the “Michael Jackson” of today? Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber, and Britney Spears discussed

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Thematic Analysis: Michael as a Prism

• Child Stardom and Exploitation:
  • Jackson’s early career reflects ongoing realities of child exploitation in entertainment.
• Race, Image, and Authenticity:
  • Early scrutiny over Jackson’s appearance and race fades as focus shifts to larger questions of his behavior and legacy.
• Cultural Amnesia and Rationalization:
  • The tension between the power of nostalgic pop and the discomfort of real allegations is ever-present.
  • Despite rational debates, choices about whether to engage with Jackson’s music remain subjective, irrational, and tied to memory and cultural identity.

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Final Thoughts

• The discussion closes with the acknowledgment that Michael Jackson’s legacy is unparalleled—and fraught. The hosts reflect that our current pop culture, despite new modes of authenticity and constant access, is still haunted by questions Michael Jackson embodied: the costs of child stardom, art versus artist, and how to reckon with a pop icon who proved “too big to fail.”

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Summary by: Critics at Large Podcast Summarizer, preserving the depth and tone of the conversation.

Transcript

[Nomi Frye]

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[Vincent Cunningham]

You got the first lines.

[Kel Fassene]

Are we doing it now?

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, you're a critic today, so

[Vincent Cunningham]

you can deliver that shit.

[Kel Fassene]

This is Critics at Large, a podcast from the New Yorker. I'm Kelleficeni.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I'm Vincent Cunningham.

[Nomi Frye]

And I'm Nomi Frye. Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening in the culture right now and. And how we got here. Okay, today is a little bit different. We are two thirds of our usual pod. Our beloved Alex is out this week. She will be back next week. Not to worry. But we have a wonderful gift for you this week. Our fellow staff writer Kel Fassene is sitting in for Alex today. Hi. Kay.

[Kel Fassene]

Yo. All these years of scribbling away as a critic with a small circle, and I'm finally today, you know, for this little half hour hour, we've got together a critic with a big C. Yeah,

[Nomi Frye]

you are a critic and a big

[Kel Fassene]

secret with a large C. A critic at large, man.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And you are a gift. She said the exact right word.

[Kel Fassene]

It sounds like a hip hop name or something. Critic at large.

[Nomi Frye]

You are the critic at large. And you write about a lot of things. You write about politics, entertainment, tech, boxing. But your big beat K is pop music.

[Kel Fassene]

I do love pop music.

[Nomi Frye]

And that's why we wanted you here with us for this episode. Because today we're talking about the King of Pop himself, Michael Jackson, who is back at the center of the culture thanks to a new biopic called simply Michael.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I love my family.

[Nomi Frye]

I just want to do my own thing.

[Kel Fassene]

Just have all these ideas in my head. Just gotta get them out and do it.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Michael not a little boy anymore.

[Nomi Frye]

So this film just came out already, is a huge success. Box office numbers after opening weekend off the charts, $217 million worldwide. It's the most ever for a biopic. What does the success of this film tell you about where Michael Jackson sits in the culture?

[Kel Fassene]

I mean, it tells me that there's a big hunger. People are really excited about getting a chance to go into a movie theater and hear his songs really loud and celebrate that. Right. It's partly nostalgia, but it's partly the fact that his music still feels like it's here with us. I think probably younger listeners aren't super familiar necessarily with with his life and his career, but they probably know the big hits. And maybe there hasn't been a time, for all sorts of reasons, there hasn't been a time recently where people can go and celebrate that music. And so maybe there was a little bit of a pent up demand.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah. And so today we're gonna be discussing Michael the movie, and we're gonna be talking about Michael himself as a person, as an icon. And we should say right up front that Michael Jackson has been accused of sexually abusing children. There are multiple allegations dating back decades that he and the state have denied and the state continues to deny after his death. And yet it seems that his popularity is stronger than ever. And Vincent, I want to ask you, when we were discussing doing this episode, you have this suggestion of approaching Michael Jackson as a prism through which we could look at a variety of issues. Can you say a little bit more about that?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, yeah, he's such a megastar. Right. That he encompasses all these strains that I guess are still operative today when we think about this kind of mega pop stardom. So we wanted to look at him through a couple of different, maybe areas of interest. I mean, first of all, there's the child stardom of it, which this film, given its ambit and his young life, is really important to this film. The question that we've had increasingly, I guess, in our time, how do you separate art from the artist? And in depicting someone as an art maker, how do you, I don't know, shelve or not, thoughts about their Persona? And then also the big thing that pop stars give us often, which is an image, you know, a surface, and how does that surface interact with our notions of authenticity? So, I mean, hopefully through the course of the episode, we'll get to all of these strains and much more.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, absolutely. So today is all about Michael Jackson as a prism, as you say, Vincent, for the big questions our culture has right now about stardom and about power. And also, it's important to note the sheer staying power of his music, which is really considerable. So that's today on critics at large. When it comes to Jackson as an icon, is he simply too big to fail? So before we dive in, one thing that's worth noting right up top is just how evergreen Michael Jackson and his music really are. You know, I can't think actually maybe Madonna. It's hard for me to think of another artist who is as kind of present over the course of my life. Do you guys have early memories of encountering his music or of him as an artist? I mean, I'm sure you do, but does anything.

[Kel Fassene]

Yeah, I mean, I was a little kid when Thriller came out, and that was the first. Might have been the first cassette I owned. It was. Yeah, it was everywhere. It was like suddenly what everyone was listening to, and before I even had a sense of what the musical context would be or. I certainly didn't know anything about the Jackson 5 or even really about most of the rest of what was on pop charts. It was just. This is the thing that everyone's listening to.

[Nomi Frye]

You start to freez. That's how I looked you, right between the eyes. You're very nice. Yeah. I think I was in first grade when Thriller came out. And I remember the show it was on because I was back in Israel, so it wasn't just like, on mtv. There was a pop show on TV that showed it, and my parents wouldn't let me stay up late to watch it. And so everyone in school was. Was talking about it, and I could understand that this was, like, an incredible thing that I had missed and so my hunger for it. But of course, like, it was absolutely everywhere, you know, and we'll talk about Michael. It's like when you hear the music, you just realize how every single note is. So it's familiar to you, like. Vincent, what about you?

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, I was. I guess I was born a little Bit after Thriller, a couple years after Thriller. And therefore, like, Dangerous was the first big Michael Jackson album for me. And for my money, Dangerous is when Michael Jackson was at his coolest.

[Nomi Frye]

That's interesting.

[Vincent Cunningham]

That's when he was wearing the white. Just the crisp white shirt open and the black pants and like, just kind of weird bandages and stuff around his arm for no reason. And the loafers and the big socks. And his hair was already kind of like, you know, crinkly. Leave the little bang coming down the side. He looked cool still.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And Dangerous was my first cd. I remember being scared of the album cover. Cause it was just his eyes.

[Nomi Frye]

Oh, that was. Yes.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It was like menagerie of animals beneath it. Like, the eyes. I had to put the CD in my drawer at night just to, like, Michael's eyes have to go away. But, yeah, he was huge. And I loved him. I loved him. I wasn't a glove owner. Did either of you own a sparkly glove or.

[Kel Fassene]

No, I wasn't leather. I wasn't attempting to dress like Michael.

[Nomi Frye]

Ay. I did not have a glove holder.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Lots of people were glove holders. I was not, But I was like. I did really enjoy Michael Jackson and love his music when I was a kid.

[Nomi Frye]

So let's turn now to Michael the movie. Okay. It just came out in theaters this past weekend. It stars Jafar Jackson, who is Michael's nephew, Jermaine's son, as Michael Jackson. And it's directed by Antoine Fuqua.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay. As the man who recently profiled Said Fuqua, we love to synopsize on this show. Would you like to synopsize the feature film, Michael?

[Kel Fassene]

Sure. I mean, so Antoine Fuqua, the director, grows up in a working class neighborhood in Pittsburgh. And there's kind of a parallel where a big chunk of this film is about the Jackson family growing up in Gary and the determination of Joe Jackson, the patriarch, to get this family up out of Gary. And the idea that he hits upon is that his boys are gonna be a singing group and they're gonna be the Jackson 5. And he's a really harsh and stern taskmaster in the film. And the film portrays Michael as extraordinarily talented and extraordinarily sensitive and kind of kindhearted in a way that sometimes beggars belief. He's kind of like, saintly in the film and again, reacting to often to Joe's determination. Colman Domingo, who played Joe Jackson, I found that performance to be really interesting. Like, that was the one I was kind of watching. It's like. And just the way His. He's got some facial prostheses, I believe, but the way his face moves in general, it's kind of like we're seeing that big face and those big eyes through Michael Jackson's eyes. But it should be said that a lot of what the film is, is music, right? This film was made in collaboration with the Jackson estate so that they would have the licensing rights to the producer. Graham King, who's really the driving force behind this film, also produced Bohemian Rhapsody, which did a similar thing with Queen, the rock band, and helped turn Queen into, like, one of the biggest rock bands of all time. And so part of the idea of Michael Jackson is, imagine what we could do if we had the rights to the Michael Jackson catalog, right?

[Nomi Frye]

But there was a hitch.

[Kel Fassene]

There was a hitch.

[Nomi Frye]

There was a hitch. And maybe, Kay, you can tell us how the movie treats this hitch, what the hitch is, and how the movie contends with it.

[Kel Fassene]

So the hitch really is that there are two halves of Michael Jackson's career. You know, he's. He rises to fame with the Jackson 5. He goes solo. He makes these amazing solo records. And then in 1993, we get the first public accusation that he has sexually assaulted children, boys. And there was a series of allegations later. He was never found guilty of anything in court. There were settlements. And so this kind of comes to dominate the later decades of his life. And originally, the idea of the film was that it would include that one of the scenes that was shot for the film was a scene of Michael Jackson's Neverland ranch being raided. And at one point, his body is examined to see if it matches some descriptions that were given by one of the alleged victims. And so all of that was in an early version of the movie. But then it turned out that the estate was bound by an agreement that Michael Jackson had made with one of the accusers in his settlement with this accuser, which basically said, as far as I'm aware, that he's not allowed to depict the events involved in the accusation. And which means his estate isn't allowed to be involved in a film that depicts the events of the accusation. Which means that Michael, to the extent that the film is made in cooperation with the estate, also can't depict any of these events involving the accuser and things that happened after it. So they had to figure out what to do. How do we make a film about Michael Jackson that doesn't depict these things? And basically what they decided to do was go back, shoot some more footage and end the film. In the late 80s so the film ends with Michael Jackson on top of the world before any of these public allegations surface.

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, I have some thoughts, Vincent. I'm sure you have some thoughts. And, Kay, I also want to hear your thoughts. Let's start with you, Vincent.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Okay. Kay is right. It's a lot of music. On some level, it's like, okay. The logic behind the movie, as I saw it, seemed to be, here's some iconic concerts that we can't miss. Motown 25, the time he gets the Pepsi commercial where he gets his hair burnt off, et cetera, et cetera. On the other hand, it is this chronicle. And this is why I totally agree about Colman Domingo's performance. It is really a story about Michael's repeated attempts to break free of his father. You know, his coming of age is this sort of episodic struggle with Joe. Every once in a while he's like, I gotta fire my father. I gotta get away from my father. Da, da, da, da, da.

[Nomi Frye]

So I gotta fire my father.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. Could you fire my father for me, please, Veronica?

[Nomi Frye]

Fire my father.

[Kel Fassene]

Everyone's got a Michael Jackson voice.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Everyone's got.

[Kel Fassene]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, except me.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You're not gonna do it? No, thanks. Fair enough.

[Nomi Frye]

I'm just doing what the movie did.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought it kind of exaggerated.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, yeah. It was like a flutey, very flutey falsetto.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah, I found him. He was more of a counter tenor in real life anyway. Anyway. But, you know, I don't mean it's weird. Yeah. It didn't go into the allegations and stuff, but it wasn't really. I thought everybody said it's avoidant. I don't think it's avoidant. I think it engaged with it in these premonitory ways and sort of like your profile, Kate, you show how the scenes that were cut out were basically kind of florid defenses. He's being sort of frisked in his home and all these kind of terrible things.

[Nomi Frye]

Treated like an animal.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We can't see these things. Whatever. Instead, it just has all of these scenes of Michael being like, well, here's why he could only be friends with children.

[Kel Fassene]

Right.

[Vincent Cunningham]

His brothers didn't want to play Twister with him. His father was a terrible person. He was famous too early. And so he has this conversation with his mother, played by Nia Long, Katherine Jackson. And he says, I can't make friends with any of the other. I can't make friends with any of the other boys. They just look at me like I'm. You know, he's Already famous. They just want to ask me questions like I've been on tv, et cetera. So it's just all about. It's. It seemed more sinister than avoidance. It seemed like the movie was sort of grooming me into believing that Michael Jackson hadn't allegedly done any of the things that he's later been said to do. And so that I resented and thought was kind of like a little bit evil. And I really didn't like that. It really gave me the ick.

[Nomi Frye]

It's right. I think you're right about. I mean, I think it's both avoidant and in this avoidance, it is a defense because it kind of corrals us sweetly into forgetting. Right. And I felt it working for me sometimes not because it's an especially good movie. I mean, I'm putting aside the questions of like sinister. Whether it's sinister or not or whatever. The movie is kind of like a wig fest. You know, there's a lot of. It's like Miles Teller is, you know, powerful lawyer, entertainment lawyer, you know, John Branca with like a kind of 80s wig. You know, it's a little bit of a TV biopic, you know, it's like. It's a little bit like certain, like strains of Ryan Murphy. It's. We're gonna kind of get it right, but it still looks a little weird, you know, like the 80s stuff, the 70s stuff. But it did get me. And it did get me with the music. I must admit. You guys that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Were you jammin.

[Nomi Frye]

Well, I was jamming.

[Kel Fassene]

You were one of those people who was dancing in front of the screen while everyone was just trying to watch the movie.

[Nomi Frye]

I danced the screen at the Lincoln Center, AMC IMAX, and you know, at 1pm on Friday and I just jammed. No, but I have to admit. And it's like not really difficult to make me cry. I'll admit I'm like pretty soft hearted.

[Kel Fassene]

We're gonna try during this podcast.

[Nomi Frye]

But you know, the Jackson 5 stuff, especially like when ABC came on, were you guys. I was like whooping and I was like. And maybe it was because it was kind of like earlier stuff. He's a child still, you know, it's like he is like, that is undeniable that he was a child that would ever happen in Michael Jackson's life. And I can't with any assurance, you know, what kind of abuse we don't know about. But certainly he was abused, you know, by his father, by the system. He was exploited, taken advantage of. So of course it's like the Heart goes out kind of unreservedly. Those moments, it really. It worked. And then I had to kind of like investigate myself and kind of like think to myself, what does this mean? And, you know, and I think Fuqua, in the profile, K says when you ask him about the allegations and how did he come to make this movie? Like, how does he feel about making a movie when, of course, it's this embattled figure that has allegedly done terrible things. He said something to the extent of, I think people do nasty things for money.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Kel Fassene]

He said, sometimes people do some nasty things for some money.

[Nomi Frye]

Right. And he was talking about the accusers.

[Kel Fassene]

Yeah, it was in that context. He was saying he doesn't. He was saying, well, I don't know about them specifically, but he was saying, generally speaking. Yes. And, you know, I was surprised because of the movie that he made a movie that ends in the late 80s. He had the opportunity to duck that question if he wanted to. Right. He had the opportunity to be like, look, we're just telling a film about what happens through the 80s, like that other stuff that's not in the film, people will make up their own mind, et cetera. And maybe I was expecting. Maybe I was expecting that someone who's had a career, like the career that he's had, was seeing this as like a money job and that this is a way to like, make a quick buck by doing this Michael Jackson biopic. And what I got instead was someone, at least in how he talked about it to me, that was a lot more earnest about how he talked about Michael Jackson and who talked about Michael Jackson as this really important figure, a really important figure to black music and to black culture.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Kel Fassene]

And that he seemed earnestly skeptical of the accusations. He seemed to feel like he had an obligation to tell this story and to tell it in the way that he did and. And to tell it in a way that was somehow exculpatory.

[Nomi Frye]

Right.

[Kel Fassene]

Or at the very least, to say, maybe there's an idea that we tend to come down harder on black celebrities or that there's less grace for black celebrities. And so, yeah, I was honestly surprised by that because that was not the easy way out of that question.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

What did you think of the movie?

[Kel Fassene]

So I watched an early version of it, and I gotta say, as a music fan, I'm kind of literal minded about this. I like documentary footage.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Well, they did a lot of. There were some anachronisms speaking of like, non documentary.

[Kel Fassene]

Yeah. And so, yes, when the filmmaker of a biopic is like, well, no, we put this here because it made the story better and they're using the music and the music's gotta carry it. But a lot of Michael Jackson's music, especially up to this era, is not that autobiographical in an obvious way. And so then you've gotta figure out like, well, how are we putting Beat it in? And so they kind of, they create this thing where Michael Jackson's like brokering a gang truce.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Which seems between the Bloods and the Crips. I think that's broadly true. Like he did.

[Nomi Frye]

It's just like the thing itself was really overdetermined.

[Vincent Cunningham]

One cold blooded killer is like, michael, can I teach you how to poplop?

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And then another cold blooded killer is like, and here's the Crip walk. And he's like, yeah, guys, that looks great. Let's make a movie about it. It's like, what? Excuse me.

[Nomi Frye]

It was a little over determined. Like it was a. It was a little much. In a minute, Michael Jackson, the Prism critics, Will Archer and the New Yorker will be right back. Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, the global fashion news and features director and co host of Vogue's podcast, the Run Through. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all access pass to the world of Vogue with the latest fashion news and the most exciting voices in the industry. On Tuesdays, join me to hear interviews with influential leaders in the industry like Calvin Klein, Daniel Roseberry and Jonathan Anderson. On Thursdays, join head of editorial content at Vogue, Chloe Mao and head of editorial content at British Vogue Cho Manati as they explore style and culture through the lens of fashion with guests like Martha Stewart, Kamala Harris and Tracee Ellis Ross. The Run through with Vogue new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. Wherever you get your podcasts, this show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o d o o.com. that's o d o o.com on the tranquil shores of Amelia Island, Florida. Salt air, sunshine and gentle sea breezes invite you to enjoy the luxury of letting go. Wander pristine beaches, breathe deeper on quiet nature trails, or simply get lost in the charm of a downtown stroll. Discover the northeast Florida getaway where every day feels a little different and completely your own. Find your unwind@ AmeliaIsland.com. I want us now to proceed and talk about what Vinson suggested was the different prisms that we can look at Michael Jackson through. And I think I want to start with child stardom. I feel like in 2026, we're much more aware than we used to be, certainly more than we were during the time of Michael Jackson's childhood, of the toll early fame can take. Does Jackson's early life feel like a familiar case of kind of like an exploited child star to you? Or like a story that couldn't have turned out well because the beginnings were already so determined in a certain direction,

[Vincent Cunningham]

in a certain way, at least in my lifetime. It's kind of the, er, case of this. I can't. It was the first time I had my mind the trope that child star, something's gonna go bad, you know. But it's weird, though, as you say, 2026, we're all kind of more aware, we're all kind of more wary of child stardom. But I would also stick a pin in our era as one of the high points of ubiquitous child stardom. If you look at so many people who are big in our culture right now. I've been watching Zendaya act since she was a child because I had a kid who was the right age to watch her Disney stuff. Recently there was that documentary Quiet on Set about Nickelodeon and all the horrible abuse, or, you know, the Dark side of Kids TV was the subtitle to that.

[Nomi Frye]

And the Jeanette.

[Vincent Cunningham]

The Jennette McCurdy.

[Nomi Frye]

The Jennette McCurdy memoir, I'm glad My Mom Died, which talked about her career as a young child who was pushed to the brink.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah.

[Nomi Frye]

By her family and also through this Nickelodeon machine.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. It strikes me at least of this grand irony that our wariness has increased. But the prevalence of this thing, child star, I mean, it just seems like it hasn't slowed down.

[Nomi Frye]

No. And we have other kind of very signal examples of this. You know, the example of Britney Spears, for instance, Right. Where she was a Mouseketeer, you know, pushed to stardom at an early age, sexualized over. Sexualized at a young age by the system that kind of reaped the financial benefits of doing so. And it all went haywire from there.

[Kel Fassene]

I'm not sure I agree with any of this.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Give it to us.

[Kel Fassene]

I think there is something weirdly satisfying for those of us that are fans to imagine that when people are famous. And we witness problems that they have that we as an audience did this to them. There's something that makes us feel like part of their story, like, oh, Britney's having trouble. That's my fault as a pop music fan, but I'm not sure that that's.

[Nomi Frye]

It was my fault.

[Kel Fassene]

K. Well, no, but like that's the fault of. No, but that's the fault of the thing. So then we're implicated. And being implicated gives us a kind of like, intimacy.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah, like the frisson of like, oh,

[Kel Fassene]

we're part of her life. And I just don't know if that's true. I think sometimes we. Yes, I'm sure it's hard to be famous, but I think it's also hard to be poor. I think it's also hard to want to be famous and not be famous. I don't know that we have that. We've done good studies of what the actual effects of fame are rather than things that are correlated with fame. One thing that might be correlated with fame is having a parent who wants to live vicariously through you. I'm sure that that has some ill effects.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think when we say child star, often we are using that idea. And yes, fame plays into the ambiance that we are creating, but really it is a metonym for, as you mentioned, at least in my mind, the child parent relationship, the parent who pushes their child. And we see this, obviously there are corollaries to be drawn. Maybe the biggest exposure most Americans have to child stardom is youth sports, because every NBA player was once a child star, for example. And I think it's that idea, the pusher as parent, that really scares us, this specter of abuse. Kay, though I wonder what you make of the fact that maybe our biggest American pop star, Taylor Swift, is very famously also a child star. Do you think that that plays into how we think of her in your position as pop critic? Whether that sheen of we've seen her grow up is part of the lasting appeal?

[Kel Fassene]

Yeah, I mean, I think often there's a thing where when people grow in public, they kind of go quite quickly from seeming kind of precocious and older than they are to being grown ups who then are seen as younger than they are. And there is a, you know, and certainly that is something that she has wielded to great effect. Right. Is a certain girliness that's part of her affect, even as an obviously grown up woman. Obviously we're thinking about something that's very deeply human, that people are somehow fascinated by youth and by young. And by young people sort of acting in slightly grown up roles, right? The way, you know, when Michael Jackson is singing, you know, he's singing songs that are kind of flirty totally as a young boy.

[Nomi Frye]

And Margo Jefferson talks about it in her great book on Michael Jackson from 2006. He's acting more adult in his songs and his movements and so on in his manner than his actual years when he's still in Jackson 5.

[Kel Fassene]

And it's considered cute.

[Nomi Frye]

And it's considered cute. It's like adorable. Oh, he's a heartbreaker, you know. But what we're talking about here, I think is one of the things we're talking about here is we're talking about power, right? We're talking about power exerted by adults on children. But another prism that I want to talk about with Michael Jackson is the power that he allegedly exerted on young people, right? And the question of what to do with his music when these alleged terrible actions were revealed and continue to be revealed in some cases, and it's an extreme case, this is like one of the most, if not the most popular entertainers, musicians of all time has been accused of doing like the most terrible things you could do, you know, sexually abusing children. These allegations started in 1993 with the first lawsuit. There were others. But most recently allegations were described in, I think unprecedentedly vivid way in the 2019 documentary Leaving Neverland, which was directed by Dan Reed. And it involves lengthy, lengthy interviews, it's four hours long with two men who were children when they met, when they met Michael Jackson, Wade Robson and James Safechuck.

[Vincent Cunningham]

There's no thoughts of this is wrong

[Kel Fassene]

or anything like that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

He told me if they ever found

[Nomi Frye]

out what we were doing, he and

[Vincent Cunningham]

I would go to jail for the

[Nomi Frye]

rest of our lives.

[Kel Fassene]

Secrets will eat you up.

[Vincent Cunningham]

You feel some.

[Kel Fassene]

I want to be able to speak the truth

[Vincent Cunningham]

as loud as I had to speak the lie for so long.

[Nomi Frye]

These men detail the assaults they experienced when they were young after forming connections with Michael Jackson and Jackson State continues to deny all of these allegations. Interestingly, both of these kids were child stars, right? Do you guys remember when that documentary came out and what was the response on a broader cultural level?

[Kel Fassene]

Yeah, I mean, people were horrified, I think, by the detail of the allegations and how horrific they are. And yeah, I think that probably did change some perceptions or at least changed the mood for anyone paying close attention. Ever since the 1993 allegations, the idea of like, oh, he's like a harmless eccentric. It's not like there's some, you know, the explanations that Michael Jackson offered about why he was having sleepovers with young boys are not explanations that anyone would accept by someone if they came from someone in their own life. And so I think it wasn't so much the idea of like, oh my gosh, he might be guilty, but it was the idea of like having to think in detail about these allegations and how horrific they are. And it's funny, when we talk about how do we respond to these allegations, right? The most obvious response is, well, hopefully we respond to them by investigating and prosecuting where possible and putting criminal in jail. And so all these questions become very different when someone's dead. And if we're talking about someone who's no longer here, we can argue about the legacy, we can argue about the behavior of his estate, but it's no longer an argument about someone where we're worried that they're still offending. And whatever justice was going to be meted out, he's already gotten whatever punishment he might get. And so now it's just a question of do we listen to, do we enjoy the music of this person who's no longer here? And in the question of like what music we listen to, our pop music choices are shaped every day by all sorts of things that are much, much less consequential than these allegations. Right? Like a pop star can get a bad haircut and you know, I'm out. Yeah, people that'll make the new single flop. Like a rapper could get his chain tooken and it's like, well, he's not what he portray on the record. So a lot of times these decisions aren't rational. In the case of Michael Jackson, these songs are pretty deep in our collective memory and some years pass and obviously the fact that Michael Jackson is dead. And so the songs start creeping back into the mainstream and you hear Michael Jackson songs more often than you hear R. Kelly songs or something, right? And there's levels to this based on the level of fame, the level of accusation.

[Nomi Frye]

And also just to note that the documentary Leaving Neverland used to be available on HBO until the Jackson estate, relying on an old agreement between HBO, a non disparagement agreement signed in the early 90s between HBO and the Jackson estate concerning some other rights to like a concert, the famous Bucharest, the Bucharest Romanian concert. The Jackson estate successfully argued that that means that Leaving Neverland needs to be pulled from the platform, which it was. And so now it's literally unavailable to watch. You can find it on various Pirated sites and so on, as I did this weekend to watch it. And I have to say, watching Micah and then watching Leaving Neverland, like, day after day in a kind of like, one, two punch was a very jarring experience because you watch this movie, this biopic, with the music, with the kind of, like, effort to rehabilitate this. This figure, and. And then watching these two men talking, and I think this was a considered decision on the director's part in a very calm, detailed manner. No, not. Not noticeably. Kind of like emotionally distraught. They're just saying, this is what happened. And I'm not gonna say on air what happened, but it's extremely detailed and extremely disturbing, and it's very hard to watch. I found it very hard to watch it, really, you know, was difficult. And so it's just like, such a dissonance, such a weird dissonance, especially seeing these two texts in such close proximity. And I agree with you, Kay. I think I will allow myself to listen to and enjoy Michael Jackson's music. Like, I don't. And maybe it's like some. I am making life easy for myself by kind of separating it in my head and saying, okay, I can enjoy, yeah, Human Nature or whatever it is, or Thriller, like, Off the Wall, like, and not think about the kids in Leaving Neverland or the men now. But the thing with Michael is it doesn't just separate the art from the artist. It separates the artist from the wrongdoing entirely.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But to this point about what we listen to, I agree that it is irrational, but there are, I don't know, some basic dynamics that at least I observe. If R. Kelly comes on in public, I'm always pretty shocked unless I'm around much older black people. There's a little bar that's on Franklin Avenue in Brooklyn that I went to once, and they put on. There was an R. Kelly set that came on, and I was like, wow. And I was like, but that makes sense. Okay. I was like, okay. Demographic reasons. I understand someone who's about to go on a big tour. Chris Brown is about to go on a big tour with Usher. There are, let's call them, discourse communities where if Chris Brown came on in my life, I'd be like, what's happening? And there are many people in my life that if it came on, I'd be like, yeah, a lot of people love Chris Brown, but it's still kind of predictable to me based on where I am, who I'm around. I find that it's less predictable with Michael Jackson. I know people who principled, don't play Michael Jackson. But a lot of people who think he did it and play Michael Jackson. Now, part of it is to the point about what we should really do is just pursue justice. Michael Jackson was never convicted of anything. And so I think this is one of those areas where the law actually matters. Like when we see somebody's convicted and they go to jail, I know people who won't watch the Cosby show for this reason, et cetera. It's been decided. And there's enough ambiguity with Michael Jackson where his music is still around. The other reason, and this is just from a sort of aesthetic standpoint, the older I get, the fewer Michael Jackson songs. Even if I had no problem with Michael Jackson, I would ever play in my real life because. And this came up with the movie too. It's like Michael Jackson was really alert to the history of popular music and the history of American entertainment. Obsessed with stuff like singing in the rain, et cetera. Really interested in the history of sort of song and dance, men, et cetera. Talked a lot about Fred Astaire, but he made a lot of novelty music.

[Nomi Frye]

Mm. Mm.

[Vincent Cunningham]

If a grown man that I know was in his house and he put on Thriller, I'd be like, are you a serial killer? This is like Halloween. What is it? It's not. Listen to it in your house music,

[Nomi Frye]

but it's like when it comes on the radio music, you're like, okay, yeah, great.

[Vincent Cunningham]

But it's not even. I don't know, it's not like music. It's always Michael Jackson music.

[Nomi Frye]

I'm sure there would be a lot of people who would argue with that.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Maybe, maybe. But he had this idea about stardom that was really about multimedia and capital E entertainment. That doesn't at all jive with my ideas about enjoying music in my real life. And so maybe it just doesn't come up as much.

[Kel Fassene]

But isn't part of. I mean, musically part of what's happening is you have this 80s moment where pop is reigning supreme. And in the aftermath of disco, R and B is kind of on the back foot. And there is this idea that in order to be relevant, R and B singers need to, quote, unquote, go pop. And that is why some of his. I don't even wanna say it sounds old fashioned, but it sounds like that moment when Prince was making pop songs, when Lionel Richie was going from being

[Vincent Cunningham]

in a funk band to doing easy like Sunday Morning.

[Kel Fassene]

Yeah. Yes. And even All Night Long. And these songs that are these kind of weird pop amalgamations Hello. Yes. Exactly where Aretha Franklin feels like in order to get back on the radio, she's gotta do a duet with George Michael. And so all this stuff is happening in that moment that said, you know, Tina Turner. Yes. Thriller as an album, it's like, it's so popular and it's so omnipresent that it might feel to, like, put it on, but, like, I don't know, human nature.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Human nature is nicely. Human nature is on the list into

[Kel Fassene]

any set of anything. And like most big name artists, when you get into the later albums, there's all sorts of weird moments. But, you know, this comes partly to how he made music that he loved, sort of mainstream pop going back to like Broadway and Tin Pan Alley. And the idea of being like an old fashioned entertainer is very different from someone like Prince who, you know, is a, you know, is into funk and he plays guitar and he's creating in a very different way. But even now, like, Michael Jackson still looms large in a way that Prince doesn't like. You listen to the Weeknd and you're like, oh, yeah, it's hard to imagine this existing, you know, without Michael Jackson. And not that the weekend's not some random person. The Weeknd is one of the five or ten biggest singers on planet earth right now.

[Nomi Frye]

Right now.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Speaking of Prince, when I got home from watching Michael, I put on Prince.

[Nomi Frye]

It was like a palette.

[Vincent Cunningham]

It was like my Palo Santo.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Most beautiful girl in the World. Diamonds and Pearls. What was the next song I played? Little Red Corvette. I would die for you adore Most

[Nomi Frye]

Beautiful girl in the World. The video directed by Fuqua, Antoine Fuqua.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Five songs set just to clear the air.

[Nomi Frye]

In a minute. Michael Jackson, image and authenticity. Critics at large from the New Yorker will be right back.

[Vincent Cunningham]

We are in uncharted territory.

[Nomi Frye]

Staff writer Evan Osnos on the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I think all of us right now are trying to make sense of an avalanche of news every day. And there aren't very many places where you can go and understand how something looks in the grand scope of history and context. That's what I come to the New Yorker for.

[Kel Fassene]

I'm David Remnick, and each week my colleagues and I try to make sense of what's happening in this chaotic world. And I hope you'll join us for

[Vincent Cunningham]

the New Yorker Radio Hour.

[Nomi Frye]

I want us to talk about our kind of third prism theme for the day. The idea of authenticity and kind of the authenticity that a lot of pop stars today are trying to put forward or not. Just today, just in general, this notion that there is probably a distance, a gap between the image a musician or a star is putting out and who they really are, quote, unquote. And it's interesting to think about this with Michael Jackson, who obviously there is a question, the kind of defining question of what was he trying to hide? Or was he even hiding anything? Like, was he who he really said he was? And I'm interested in what you guys think about the way this is treated in Michael, in the movie. And just in general, this question, Michael as a figure over the course of his career, what was kind of his approach to this issue?

[Kel Fassene]

Well, so much of this discourse in the 80s had to do with racial authenticity, physical authenticity. Right. The color of his skin, the way he changed the shape of his nose. And, you know, obviously, especially in the 80s, this was a big question. And part of the question of the idea of being like an R and B singer and quote, unquote, going pop was this idea of like, oh, are you no longer proud to be a black musician? Are you no longer making black music? One of the many ironies of Michael Jackson is that later in life, and especially after his death, as all these other questions swirled around him, that became less of a question. Right. The idea, for better or for worse, you know, he's regarded as a black musician. And people who defend him often seek to defend him on that basis.

[Nomi Frye]

Fuqua, for instance, talks about it in your profile.

[Kel Fassene]

Yes. The idea that maybe he was treated differently because he was black. And so it's interesting that the kinds of things that disturbed people about Michael Jackson, some people in the 1980s have totally fallen out of the conversation because we have these bigger, more important things perhaps, to be disturbed by. And so the question of authenticity, I'm never sure exactly what that means. One thing it means is that his songs foreground artifice in a way that is a little different. Right. He's kind of working with songwriters. The songs are kind of about whatever. They're not necessarily about his personal experiences. He has certainly, more than any major pop star, he kind of doesn't really sing love songs, which is, like, bizarre, unprecedented. And when he does, they're always a little weird. My favorite, they look stagey.

[Vincent Cunningham]

They're like, yeah, what's your favorite?

[Kel Fassene]

My favorite is Muscles, the song he wrote for Diana Ross, which is maybe about a snake, Right. I want muscles all over my body. It's very strange.

[Nomi Frye]

She has some songs of revenge when it comes to women. The songs directed Dirty Diana, Billie Jean, of course.

[Kel Fassene]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

I Think maybe one of the sweeter love songs, which is also on my playlist of like, I would like to hear this at a party is Liberian Girl. But again, it's like. It's play acting. And I know I want you to get DIN uk, but it's like. And nobody has to answer this. Boo. Is there one Michael Jackson song that you would listen to while having sex? Yeah, just a question. Oh, just a question.

[Kel Fassene]

That's the real.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Because, you know, that's a question about pop music. You know, the new Kehlani album has a lot of sex songs on it. Michael Jackson never made one. But you were saying, Keh.

[Kel Fassene]

I think in general, the idea he made some songs that. That could have been described as slow jams, could have been played on Quiet Storm radio back in the day. But I think we think of. I think the way we think of authenticity now is that he sounds like him. When you talk about your reaction when he comes on. When a Michael Jackson song comes on, it doesn't sound like anything. And so even when we hear people borrow bits and pieces of him, whether it's the Weeknd or we're hearing a little bit in Bruno Mars or whatever, we're like, oh, oh, that's Michael Jackson. Instantly recognizable. So in that sense, he ended up perfecting a very different kind of authenticity, which was he created a sound that even now sounds like him. Maybe in some cases sounds too much like him to fit comfortably onto a playlist. Because, like, you're like, that's Michael Jackson.

[Vincent Cunningham]

There's an interesting moment in the film that corresponds with this. He's talking to his lawyer, played by Mouse Teller, and he's saying, I don't wanna do all this different publicity. Cause I wanna be mysterious. If Hayley's comic came by once a year, every year, would it be so special, et cetera. But I'm wondering. Cause today the opposite is true about image and authenticity. The only way to make either of those things cohere for an audience is to be Halley's Comet times a million, you know, constantly. All constantly in front of us.

[Nomi Frye]

Yeah.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And I guess I wonder, maybe this is a question for you, Kay. Cause, you know, I don't know. Does this. Has this totally changed the nature of pop stardom as the way you look at it? Or is it on an easily trackable continuum?

[Kel Fassene]

I mean, pop stardom is always changing, Right? In the Michael Jackson era, the idea that we had music videos was like kind of a new thing. And it's like, oh, we're getting to See, we get to see, like, there's an album and then it's accompanied by like half a dozen short films. Like, that was a big advance in terms of how close we got to the pop star. Now, of course, from the modern vantage point, we see those 80s music videos as being really highly scripted, tightly controlled productions compared to someone speaking on an Instagram reel or something. Right. So, yes, it's a high level of artifice. But yeah, at the time, a lot of the talk about Michael Jackson was partly about how ambitious he was and how capable he was in the. What was then a relatively new medium of music videos.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. When he gets to ask the Bloods, do you want to be in my short film?

[Nomi Frye]

And they're like, yeah, where do I sign Mr. Berry Gordy, guys? So, you know, we've been discussing how Michael Jackson is this prism right at the center of all these ideas about stardom and specifically pop stardom. I wanna ask you a question. I don't know if it even has an answer. Who's our Michael Jackson today? Or, like, who comes closest? Is there anyone?

[Kel Fassene]

Taylor.

[Nomi Frye]

Taylor, what do you think, Vincent? Do you agree? Do you have another contender for Michael Jackson? Dumb.

[Vincent Cunningham]

Yeah. Recently I've been thinking about Justin Bieber. I wrote about his concert at Coachella and just this idea of someone who seems to really be showing the strain of having been who he is for a long time and trying to turn that into art in a certain way. I've been thinking, I mean, he does not anymore cause stampedes at the mall, but I've been thinking about him a lot.

[Nomi Frye]

I mean, when I think about someone like Britney, similarly, I think to MJ is like the music is simply undeniable. It's like something that I feel the same sensations when I hear Hit Me Baby, Mary Martin.

[Kel Fassene]

And that's a song that never. That I don't wanna say never goes away. Nothing lasts forever in pop music, but. But that doesn't go away for a number of generations. You know, maybe in a hundred years or something.

[Nomi Frye]

Maybe in a hundred years. K, thank you so much for being our guest critic today.

[Kel Fassene]

Thank you.

[Nomi Frye]

It was an absolute pleasure.

[Vincent Cunningham]

A critic at Large. Capital C, Forever now and forever.

[Kel Fassene]

Is that a curse?

[Nomi Frye]

No, This has been Critics at Large. Alex Barish is our consulting editor and Rhiannon Corby is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our show is mixed by Mike Kutchman and we had engineering help today from Pran Bandy with music by Alexis Cuadrato. You can listen to all of our episodes [e-mail] Critics. Hi, I'm Rebecca Ford.

[Vincent Cunningham]

And I'm John Ross.

[Nomi Frye]

And we're the hosts of Little Gold Men, Vanity Fair's podcast for film, TV and awards lovers.

[Kel Fassene]

And just because the Oscars are done

[Nomi Frye]

for now doesn't mean we are. Join us every week for coverage of the biggest stories, stories in Hollywood, interviews with today's brightest stars, and so much more.

[Kel Fassene]

Listen to Little Gold Men every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.