← CRYPTO 101
Loading summary
Transcript39 lines
- [00:00]
Podcast Host (Ad Read)
One thing I love about summer is everything's just getting easier. You're outside more, you're taking vacations and it's the time where you're really not trying to overthink every outfit. You just want stuff that feels good, works, and sometimes is a little cool. That's why I keep coming back to Quint's. They make those pieces that you end up just wearing all season. For me, it's the 100% European linen shirt and the matching linen pants that has become one of my go to beach vacation outfits. I've gotten so many compliments on it. It's breathable, it's comfortable, it looks put together, but it's still feels relaxed. You can literally wear this thing going to the beach all day, walking by the water for a sunset and then head straight to dinner later feeling completely comfortable and looking fashionable. And that's really what Quince does. Well, their 100% European linen pants and shirts are easy to wear, perfect for summer and the price is unbelievable. And they start at literally just $34. They also have soft tees you can wear all day, plus lightweight cotton sweaters that are perfect for when the temperature drops a little at night. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman. So you're paying for exceptional quality, not the brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quint has become one of those brands people trust for home travel and everyday essentials too. You've heard me talk about their website before. It's super fun to scroll around. They literally have everything. So make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quint.com crypto101 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com crypto101 for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com crypto101.
- [01:47]
Brendan (Interviewer)
All right everyone, we are joined here by Ryan Sachs. He is the co founder and CEO over at Eco. Ryan, welcome and it's good to have you.
- [01:56]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Great to be on, Brendan. Have a good conversation, dude.
- [01:59]
Brendan (Interviewer)
We're going to have a good one. Let me tell you what, I've got to kick us off with a little bit of an icebreaker here. Where did the name Eco come from and does it tie into the mission?
- [02:09]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Okay, so it's actually a pretty interesting story. I'll shortcut it in the interest of time, but originally we started the company under the name Beam and there are several beams. We didn't have much brand protection around Beam. There were a couple of beams in crypto, there were a couple of beams not in crypto. And so it was just a cluttered name. And one of our seed investors, guy named Garrett Camp, had the brand rights to Eco, this very valuable brand. Garrett created Uber. He loves brand and brand design is sort of a portfolio of brands that he'd accrued over time. And they intended to start a company or a project under the name Eco and didn't end up kind of doing that. And so it was effectively unused. And so as part of our early investment deal, we took over the brand. And our thinking at the time was clearly to get something more distinct and more ownable than Beam. But we really liked the abstractness of Eco related to the stablecoin and crypto mission. You can play with it from a brand perspective in a number of different ways. Ecosystem, economy, et cetera, et cetera. Once you sort of see it, you can't really unsee it. And so it's been, it's been really valuable for us to leverage and we, we own it, including the assets around it. And it's been an advantage from that standpoint as well. So that's where it came from.
- [03:32]
Brendan (Interviewer)
I was curious, I was, as I was going through a lot of your material before this, I was just going around, I was like, man, that is probably a hard name to get anything like that. That's, you know, one word, short, popular. The name Eco is, you know, I would imagine it had to have been a hard thing to get, but that would make sense if you kind of had a little bit of an inside scoop and allowance there. But I want to dive in to what all of you have been working on in terms of the team. You guys have been building out a lot when it comes to just looking cross chain, increasing liquidity, stable coins, tokenization, real world assets, you guys just name it. You kind of have your hands in a bunch of these different areas. But can you give us a high level overview of what you're working on?
- [04:19]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Yeah, I mean, what we're really, really focused on is moving stablecoins at large scale, programmatically, kind of across the markets that use them. Okay, so that's, that's what we do use this word, orchestration. Sometimes some people mean a little bit different things with how they say it, but when we say orchestration, we simply mean programming those stablecoin flows across the markets where they're most in demand. And so you can think of eco as kind of like this neutral routing layer and liquidity layer for stablecoins to move. And that means moving them across on chain markets, which means moving them across vaults and defi protocols and different chains. It also means sometimes routing them across off chain liquidity with the issuers directly or with kind of market maker liquidity protocols that hold, hold those assets off chain. And we're just really, really good at price selection and price monitoring and risk control across that dynamic environment, moving stablecoins at large size. So that's what we do. And what's interesting about that is it also touches on the markets that you said, you know, rwas tokenization on chain fx. These are markets that are developing, they will be huge markets. The stablecoin market itself is already big and will be huge. But the adjacent markets that touch stable coins and correlate with stablecoins will also be enormous. And so if you're moving through like an on chain FX currency pair, or you're trying to get in and out of a vault position, like an RWA or tokenization position, you're usually using stablecoins to do that as well. So if we're really good at routing stablecoins, it's not always only just to swap between two stables. It may be to also access these other on chain markets. And that's where we sit.
- [06:09]
Brendan (Interviewer)
That makes sense, right? Kind of saying, hey, you know, we just because we started or we can succeed with stablecoins, maybe there is a practical use case outside of that. That's what it's sounding like, right?
- [06:20]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Yeah. I think that a lot of times even the bull case for stablecoins underestimates the true bull case because the use case is not just sending a dollar that also sort of underpins use cases that will also be enormous on their own, accessing those vault positions, routing on chain fx, et cetera. And that's just an interesting kind of like maturity curve in the market. So that's, that's where we sit. That's why we think a focus on stablecoins is, is so valuable. And that's how we optimize accordingly.
- [06:55]
Brendan (Interviewer)
What do you make or maybe what have you seen in, in terms of stablecoins over the last one to two years? Right. From my perspective and I think the audience, it, it feels as if there's been a lot of growth. I mean, not only did you have the genius act get passed, but in terms of how much stable coins are being created and you always hear like all these big numbers about increases and Even like publicly traded companies now. Right. You know, with Circle going live and being traded here in the US it seems as if there's a lot going on, I guess. What have you seen behind the scenes and what does that growth look like?
- [07:36]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
It's a great question. So it's pretty astounding to me. I've been building in this space since 2017 informally. We started the company formally in 2018 for the stablecoin use case and it was way too soon. And you know, you know, Circle launched USDC in 2018 19, so it was starting to grow. But at that time I thought incorrectly that stable coins would sort of hit and kind of go mainstream within a couple years. And it took way longer than that for a variety of reasons. But once they did, they've actually grown faster than I expected. Okay, so you know, it's like that, that rubber band stretched for a longer time than I thought and then suddenly it snapped more powerfully than even I predicted. And so that kind of frames my answer to your question. The growth in the stablecoin market for the last two years has been astounding. It was really unlocked by two things, I think, broader maturity of the underlying infrastructure. So blockchains had to scale, they had to be trusted as sort of stable back end financial infrastructure. And that was just a development problem that lasted for the better part of a decade. And they kind of got to that point over the last couple years. And then of course, regulatory clarity, the technology fundamentals of stablecoins were apparent already. This is just a better way to move money for a number of different reasons. But when you get to a certain institutional scale, banks, desks, et cetera, they're not necessarily going to dive in unless they have, you know, absolute clarity on how they interact with this technology. And the Genius act gave them, that gave stablecoin issuance that in the United States at least. And then it's just like open the floodgates. The potential energy was already there and it's activated over the last couple years. So a few trends that are relevant to that that I think are particularly interesting. You mentioned the stablecoin issuance trend. We now have hundred stable coins, you know, issued by, I would say a short list of six to eight major issuance platforms in different corners of the market. And there's a lot of dust to settle there. What which of those stable coins will be retail branded and we'll want some notion that I'm holding the stable coins. Which of them will be relegated purely to the back end as kind of A faster money movement unit of account. There's some dust to settle there. That's dependent on who's issuing them, what product they're integrated with, et cetera. And that'll be, I think, a fertile area of the market for the next couple of years. But clearly there are going to be a number of kind of these digital dollars that need to interoperate across markets and across products that frames the opportunity for a product like ours or for a platform like ours. And the maturity of the space is the other thing that I would call out. So the space, the stablecoin space, has become more institutional faster than I expected. The growth rates are astounding. They're doing more payment volume than the major card networks worldwide year over year, growing at 30 to 50% annually in that volume. But what's I think going to really accelerate that even further is like the institutional adoption curve of stable coins. I just don't need to. Not only do I need to move stable coins for sort of a $10,000 retail transaction or a $1,000 retail transaction, but institutions asking how do I move 10 to $100 million at a time over this technology? And that's going to be an area to watch over the next couple of years.
- [11:03]
Podcast Host (Ad Read)
You know what slows teams down more than anything? It's not always headcount, budget, or even the tools themselves. It's when the way work gets done lives in someone's head and never actually gets documented. Then someone new joins a new platform, gets rolled out, or a teammate leaves, and suddenly everyone's doing the same process in a different way. That's exactly the problem today's sponsor, Scribe, was built to solve. For Scribe is a workflow AI platform that captures any workflow in real time and turns it into a step by step documentation. Automatically, you just turn on the extension, do the process like you normally would, and Scribe builds the guide as you go, capturing every click, step and screenshot. And it's already trusted by over 80,000 enterprises, including nearly half of the Fortune 500. With our team being remote, I have definitely had moments where I've had to explain the same setup or or process more than once to a colleague. And it always feels like something that should have been documented the first time. With Scribe, what could take hours of writing screenshots and cleanup can be ready to share in under a minute. Scribe also automatically redacts sensitive information like names, emails and account numbers from screenshots. Admins can enforce that across the team so nothing slips through the cracks. Plus, anyone following the process can get real time on screen guidance showing exactly where to click inside the actual tool. And Scribe doesn't just document workflows, it uses AI to suggest ways to improve them, helping you spot redundant steps, bottlenecks and places to simplify. To book a personalized enterprise Demo, visit Scribe. How/Crypto101 that's S C R I B E. How/Crypto101 when it's time to scale
- [12:49]
Sponsor Voiceover
your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want, like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha chings from every channel right in one spot and turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial.
- [13:14]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Today I cashed out my entire 401k thinking someone stole my identity.
- [13:20]
Brendan (Interviewer)
A fake email cost me my dream home.
- [13:22]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
After I sent my personal information to
- [13:24]
Brendan (Interviewer)
a scammer, my AI agent wired thousands to an account I'd never seen.
- [13:28]
Sponsor Voiceover
When billions of people feel unsafe, that's no longer a security problem. It's an economic one. At Gen, we're building the trust layer for a more fearless planet with products and technologies from our global brands, Norton, Lifelock, Avast and Moneylion. See it in action@genndigital.com yeah, it's been
- [13:48]
Brendan (Interviewer)
fascinating because as this grows, there are so many different use cases. And what stood out to me the most was hearing how both like traditional companies, right, traditional equities have talked about stablecoins in a very, very positive light regardless of their stance on crypto. And then also watching how the government talks about it because the government's excited. They're like, hey, these guys can be big buyers of our debt. We benefit from that. We want to push this. Companies are looking at it and saying, hey, this makes sense in terms of functionality. Now you also have a lot of like agentic stuff going on and they're saying, hey, we can actually allow them to use stablecoins for this or that. You mentioned tokenization. Obviously stablecoins have been just the growth in relation to like token tokenization, RWAs and how stable coins kind of correlate to those. That's another just wild one that has seen a lot of attention. But I think you made a good point earlier where you said stablecoins were kind of ahead of their time where like back in the day when they really started, you know, coming to the market, they were basically just used as, hey, I'm going to use this as a means of exchange or I'm going to sell out of Bitcoin or Ethereum and I'm going to hold stablecoins. And that's really all it was. Defi came along, added a little bit more purpose. You know, tokenization came along, added more purpose. What we've seen in recent years, and correct me if I'm wrong here, I want to get your opinion on it, but it feels as if as the years have gone on, the not only like have the purposes grown right, but also the different ways that it can be used have kind of also expanded. And it feels like as the market has matured, everyone even outside of crypto have started looking in and saying, hey, we could find a different way to kind of utilize this stuff. Is that accurate?
- [15:38]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Absolutely. And okay, so there's kind of like it's absolutely accurate. And there, there are two things to consider. One is replacing the way money moves today and new use cases for how money might move tomorrow. So on the former it's like you need to move a dollar digitally. A stablecoin probably has something for you. So that's like the conversion of the existing money movement market payments, treasury flows, cross border remittances, et cetera, to use this new financial backend. And that's just happening and it's happening rapidly and it has been like we talked about. And then you also alluded to this, there are a number of use cases that just are new. This is another reason why I think people underestimate the size of the stablecoin market. It's not just the replacement of money movement flows that already exist, it is the unlocking of money movement flows that don't yet exist. And you know, the agentec payment category is probably the prime example. That category has not really hit yet. It's experimental, it's not mature, but it's coming right. Like there will be a chatgpt openclaw moment for agentic payments over the next 18 months. I don't pretend to know what company is going to sort of hit that spike and what use case is going to really create it, but that's going to come and they're going to use stable coins and the velocity of money is going to be astoundingly high, even if the average transaction is relatively low. That's just one example to consider in terms of if you can program money and it flows more freely as a result and composes across markets, then you can just do new stuff with it still safely. And that's going to be an interesting Frontier. Yeah.
- [17:23]
Brendan (Interviewer)
Well, I agree with you. I think that stable coins are one of the hottest sectors right now. Right? Again, everyone wants to talk about them. Obviously here in crypto we like stable coins. You go to the traditional financial side, you go to the government side, you go globally. It's just one of the hottest topping talking points at the moment. People can't get enough of them. Again, regardless of people's kind of stance on crypto or whatever, stable coins are just here. Everyone seems to be in agreement that this is going to just be what appears to be just a growing sector and it's grown at a really fast rate. I think it can keep it up. Excuse me, but I think that there's a lot of good things on the horizon there. I guess the big question that people have is if people say, hey, bitcoin's going to be big, it's easy. You invest in bitcoin. If people say, hey, decentralized applications or defi is going to be big, maybe you can bet on Solana or Ethereum. With stable coins, it is somewhat easy, right? You can invest in the chains that build these stable coins, but I think it's a little bit harder, right, because there's no way of like, there's very few ways of direct exposure. And so that is one of the questions that we've gotten asked over here is how can we capitalize and how can us as retail users, everyday people, how can we capitalize on the growth and the success of stablecoins if this is the case?
- [18:50]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Yeah. So exposure opportunity is pretty thin today because that hasn't really, hasn't really sort of translated to public markets yet. The best example is probably Circle. So if you believe in this, in circles, particular value in this huge kind of stablecoin issuance opportunity, the unit economics that may come with it and Circle's value prop for. Yeah, Circle's infrastructure and USDC are going to have hit escape velocity, are going to be a systemically important thing. Then you can go buy Circle stock, but there are not very many opportunities, you know, not financial advice. I don't know what stock's at today. Go do your own research. But there's not, there's not very many opportunities that are similar to that. It's not like there are a bunch of stablecoin companies that have gone public, but there are also several proxies that are turning into kind of stablecoin platforms themselves. Coinbase is doing a lot, they got a lot going on, but one of their clear strategic bets is to become a stablecoin platform, unifying liquidity across markets, providing stablecoin kind of developer products, et cetera. So you can kind of correlate that way. And then a third way, which you also mentioned, is there are a few blockchains that have tokens. Now these are not public market kind of, you know, tokens. You have to go to a crypto exchange to buy them. But there are a few blockchains, I would say three or four or five, that are particularly stablecoin focused. And if they do a really good job of building their technology, creating a developer ecosystem, distributing themselves, then, you know, maybe that, that, that, that crypto asset is, you know, is, is, is a good position to be in. But there's a lot of dust to settle there. A lot of those chains are still new or kind of like figuring out their market penetration. There's not a great play other than the couple of public stocks out there that are highly correlated. That will change over the next two years rapidly. If you think about, there are a lot of market structures in tradfi that will translate to the crypto sphere. You know, we don't need to reinvent everything. Tradfi is pretty efficient in a lot of kind of market structure ways. And crypto will probably just like need feature parity there. So there are some public companies in tradfi that play extremely important roles in primary and secondary markets for different asset classes. Some public companies that really kind of have liquidity, network effects and price control over bond markets, et cetera. And those might be kind of like decent analogies to map to the way the crypto sphere might evolve. You will have more crypto companies going public over the next couple of years that have strong stablecoin offerings or might be wholly focused on stablecoins. And you will have some, that kind of fit into market structure layers where a ton of money just goes through them. They have platform pricing power and they have really good unit economics as a result. And it makes sense for them to go public on the basis of the value proposition. And so I think those opportunities will expand over the next couple years as the crypto market matures.
- [22:01]
Brendan (Interviewer)
Yeah, well, I think that's what we'll have to kind of keep an eye out on. And I think that you're right, there's going to be a lot of opportunities. Maybe it is somewhat limited today, but they're still out there. But I want to get back to kind of the core of what you all are doing here as the solution to stablecoins and I guess start that off with the question because do you think that fragmented and maybe like siloed liquidity across chains and issuers remains one of the primary barriers or concerns for some of these large institutions?
- [22:35]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Yeah, but they don't think of it like that. They don't think the way it translates for them. So the answer is yes. But yeah, I would reframe it a bit. It remains a huge problem. Stablecoins are not as interoperable as they need to be. The market's very disorganized and that's always what happens in early markets. Right. And for that market to consolidate well and for your dollar to be a dollar effectively, stablecoins need to become more interoperable. And so the fragmentation problem translates to those kind of institutional customers as unpredictable pricing, subpar risk management. And it makes the stablecoin market look more like an FX market because there's always a spread. If your liquidity is kind of split up, very different liquidity profiles and different chains that have different kind of finality times to confirm a transaction, there's always going to be a spread there. And that spread's not going to wholly go away, but it's certainly wider than it needs to be today. And so a lot of institutions don't operate across chains because they don't have the kind of risk and pricing controls that they would expect in doing so. Also, Clarity act has not been finalized yet, so there's some uncertainty about how they operate in that market structure and how it will evolve. That's really kind of how the problem statement confronts them. And that's the problem statement that we, that really frames what we do. We believe that stablecoins need a neutral programmable layer to pass through that makes them more interoperable. And if we do a really good job routing and sort of aggregating liquidity just in time, then you can compress those spreads and really give them a lot of comfort on kind of like their risk management for operating in this market.
- [24:20]
Brendan (Interviewer)
So what I'm going to summarize this, but what the main purpose here is is to increase liquidity, allow anyone to essentially operate and interact with stablecoins in a cross chain manner. And I think by doing that you kind of solve the first thing I said, which is increase liquidity. Right. So if anyone can transact or not even transact, but if you create this cross chain environment, then you're increasing liquidity and interoperability for stablecoins as a whole. And it seems to be that is the goal, is it targeted more towards the business side or is it retail
- [24:58]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
or both, it's targeted for us more toward the business side. Now a lot of businesses are, a lot of businesses that we work with are building retail products on the other side, but they integrate our infrastructure to build a better product experience themselves. And so we, you know, we're primarily developer infrastructure and B2B infrastructure for how you want to move stable coins. And part of our advantage, part of the benefit to using our platform is there's tons of flexibility to how you want to move money. You know, you can go far beyond just telling Eco that you want to swap a certain amount of USDC for usdt. You can apply rules to that, you can apply tight price controls to that. You can program routing into a second and third event if that's what needs to happen. And it gives you, I think, a good, good measure of confidence operating what are across what are otherwise highly dynamic environments for using stablecoin across market A and market B. Yeah, and that's, that's basically what our platform makes possible. That is definitely sort of a B2B kind of platform, partnership value prop. It's the developers that are doing batched payment settlement, highly sophisticated treasury management, et cetera, that want to kind of program how and when and why they want to move money, not just always do it right on demand in a simple swap. And that's what we make possible.
- [26:27]
Brendan (Interviewer)
Well, Ryan, we appreciate your time here. We love hearing about not only growth, but what's happening here with stablecoins. It's an exciting space, man. Again, you know, for people who have been around in the space for a while, watching that grow and evolve and adapt in real time is super interesting, especially as it's getting used in all these different ways. I think it helps kind of paint the long term picture and what that might look like. And we're glad to hear that you're at the forefront building the infrastructure for those next stages. It's always funny coming back years later and then looking back on it, I think this is going to be one of those moments where in a couple of years from now we'll look back at this and we'll talk again. Here we are. Now we're like, oh, stable coins are being talked about being used to buy government Treasuries and it's being used in stable coins and real world assets and all this stuff. Look back a couple years from now and be like, oh, you know, like either a lot of this stuff, hopefully, hopefully a lot of this stuff has become mainstream, or we'll just talk about it, be like oh, what was stablecoins used before it was used? All this stuff. Like, what did people use it for back in the day? So hopefully we have a couple of those conversations. Final question for you. You know, how far away do you think a lot of this is? I know some people get nervous about the Clarity act. Some people are, you know, just nervous because we've been in a bear market. It pushes their time horizons out a little bit, or maybe it makes their confidence waiver in terms of adoption and getting this stuff up and running and really seeing the activity that we've talked about. How far out do you think we could be?
- [28:04]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Trains left the station.
- [28:07]
Brendan (Interviewer)
It's happening.
- [28:08]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Yeah, the train has left the station. It's happened so quickly that I think that people are still talking about the inevitability of stablecoins and I think we need to change the phrasing. It's just like they were inevitable. Yes, they have been for a while. They're not. They're just. They're just here. And that's just going to continue. They're going to gradually take over and replace existing backend financial infrastructure steadily and accelerating over the next decade. And so it's just happening. Clarity. No clarity. It's still happening because we still have genius. That's the Genius act gave us stablecoin authorization. Clarity might add some requirements, change some other things, but, you know, it's already happening. On the basis of the legislation we have, we at least have that clarity in the United States of what it takes to issue and use a stablecoin and what collateral is allowed. And that's good enough to really unlock this phase. And it's just happening. So I think everything we've talked about in this conversation is not hypothetical. I would expect all of the trends we've discussed to continue to accelerate over the next couple years.
- [29:15]
Brendan (Interviewer)
Awesome. Well, Ryan, where can people follow you at if they want to get involved? If they want to follow you, if they want to follow eco's doing, where can they find you at?
- [29:24]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
So ECO is super easy to find. Eco.com@eco nx. And then if you care what I have to say personally, is my name first and last at Ryan Sachs on X.
- [29:36]
Sponsor Voiceover
Perfect.
- [29:36]
Brendan (Interviewer)
Well, Ryan, once again, thank you so much for joining us here today. We appreciate your time.
- [29:41]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
Great conversation as always. Thanks, Brandon. I cashed out my entire 401k thinking someone stole my identity.
- [29:58]
Brendan (Interviewer)
A fake email cost me my dream home.
- [30:00]
Ryan Sachs (Co-founder and CEO of Eco)
After I sent my personal information to
- [30:01]
Brendan (Interviewer)
a scammer, my AI agent wired thousands to an account I'd never seen.
- [30:06]
Sponsor Voiceover
When billions of people feel unsafe, that's no longer a security problem, it's an economic one. At Gen, we're building the trust layer for a more fearless planet with products and technologies from our global brands Norton, Lifelock, Avast and Money Lion. See it in action@genndigital.com Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.