← CRYPTO 101
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- [00:00]
Bryce
Foreign. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I am so excited to be joined today here at the Crypto Hedge Fund Summit by a really incredible individual and investor here in the crypto world and outside of the crypto world. But you know, this is all about crypto funds. And so we're really excited to meet Matthew Lamurle, who's the co founder of Blockchain Co Investors. And Matthew, thank you so much for joining us and coming on and sharing your insights with us.
- [00:36]
Matthew Lamurle
It's great to be here. Bryce. We spoke once pre Covid.
- [00:40]
Bryce
Yeah.
- [00:41]
Matthew Lamurle
Some years have gone by. The space has become more and more exciting. It's good to be here again.
- [00:47]
Bryce
Yeah, no good memory. I. I'm surprised you remember that because it was right when we were starting everything back, even before COVID and we really had no audience back then and we just believed that one day we were going to be able to build this big audience. And now it's turned into, you know, hundreds of thousands of viewers every month and it's been a ton of fun. And so yeah, we have a lot to update the good citizens of Crypt Nation about you because I'm sure your firm has also changed quite a bit in the past six years. But before we dive into some of the big changes and what you guys are looking at going forward, catch us up. What is Blockchain Co investors and how did you kind of come to be a founder here of this crypto fund?
- [01:29]
Matthew Lamurle
Thanks a lot, Bryce. So without going all the way back in Internet and fintech investors from the from about 2000 onwards. And that meant we were also doing a lot of digital content investing, video games, virtual worlds, things like this. And the reason that's important is because a lot of the things we're now talking about like digital assets and digital monies and wallets and the ability to move value around the world over the Internet, those things we were already breaking ground on in large populations of people that were playing those games and in those virtual worlds. But of course, the technology wasn't really ready for prime time. It was very proprietary technology related. When Alice and I first saw the Bitcoin white paper, she had just also been sitting on the boards of First Data and Fiser, the world's largest merchant acquirers and merchant processors. She'd been on some other boards too. And I think we were just primed to see Blockchain for being a lot more than a single asset technology, essentially that it could become the backbone for the movement of value globally. And so we went all in. And so what we've been doing for the last decade. We are early investors in about 40 blockchain venture funds with names like Blockchain Capital, Pantera, Castle Islands, Hash Key, Dragonfly and so on. We do that through a fund to fund structure. Then we do selective follow on investing. So if it's equity related, that's typically Series B, C, D, we used to call that growth capital. If it's token related, it's typically the seed round after formation. And so we'll be putting our own capital in to token rounds after some of our VCs are backed, a new project or team. And then the last piece of our puzzle is we also operate public company vehicles called SPACs with the partnered with Canter and Cohen with the intent of helping the leading blockchain companies go public.
- [03:56]
Bryce
Wow. So yeah, there's a lot there, There's a lot that I want to unpack. Even the SPAC stuff, the special purpose acquisition corporations are very interesting and they were really big in 2021. They kind of dried out as the IPO market kind of dried out. But I'm hearing that it's about to bounce back in a big way. So we want to talk about that, but I want to get your insights. So here we are kind of like, you know, early, early springtime 2025 and paint us a picture of what's going on in the venture side of the world. You, you know, speak to and see 40 other, you know, venture funds that you're invested in. What's, what's the landscape like right now? Springtime 2025.
- [04:35]
Matthew Lamurle
Thank you, Bryce. And you know, everything I tell you, it will be primarily through the lens of an early stage venture investor who invests with a 10 year time frame.
- [04:46]
Bryce
Okay.
- [04:47]
Matthew Lamurle
And I say all of that because I know a lot of your listeners may be traders and they may be more interested in public liquid traded tokens and, and I'm happy to talk to that too, but I'm a pretty much an old fashioned Silicon Valley long term investor. And so for us it couldn't be better in the sense everything we've been believing for the last 10 years was being heavily resisted here in America. And even though we could see the value of this technology in terms of allowing the movement of monies as well as commodities and other assets over the Internet, opening up a lot of consumer benefit in terms of quicker, cheaper, easier to do business, to do everything you want to do. Even though we could see that vision of blockchain empowering a digital economy, the reality was it was very difficult to gain traction in an environment where the US was pretty hostile to the founders and the businesses they were launching. And so we were backing businesses for 10 years. Some of them were getting substantial traction. Some of them have names like Coinbase and Ripple and Kraken and Securitize and Bitwise. Your listeners will know those companies and many others. But I would say it was always hard. And the difference now is that it's becoming a lot, lot easier in the sense that we now have the beginnings of the elimination of uncertainty around is what we're doing legal and is it okay to do it? But we also have the urgency for the traditional players to get on board. It's like you could have been the CEO of a bank or a payment company or an asset manager for the last 10 years and you were sort of twiddling your thumbs and, and staying on the sidelines. I think without exception, they now need know that they need to embrace this technology and that it's going to do a lot for their own businesses. So all the adoption curves are taking off. The number of, the number of people with digital wallets, the monthly average users, the amount of institutional adoption, the regulatory environment, it's all trending in a very positive way and that's allowing the, the companies and startups that we've backed to accelerate their businesses and grow faster too. Now with venture we have a high failure rate. We expect that and so we know that most companies will not succeed. But the ones that the, the, the, the, you know, the stars in their respective spaces are all now seeing tremendous growth and that's very exciting to see.
- [07:40]
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- [08:51]
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- [09:50]
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- [10:14]
Bryce
No purchase necessary vgw group void. We're prohibited by law 21 plus terms and conditions apply. I love it. And so, so tell us a little bit about, you know, venture capital, right? What is it that you're doing with these companies? And are you taking tokens? Are you taking equity? Are you taking a combination thereof? And what makes you different than just, you know, a hedge fund, right, who comes in and buys up a bunch of the tokens on the open market? Are you actually sitting down with the founders, helping them shape these things and, you know, connecting them?
- [10:44]
Matthew Lamurle
Okay, so Bryce, to answer that, I think we need to first talk about how many asset classes are there here. And I'll do this really fast, but in traditional startup and technology investing, we split the world into more than one asset class. We say there's early stage venture, and venture capitalists are the people that back startups in the formation through Series A phases. Then we'll do what we call mid and late stage private investing. And that's when companies have product market fit, they're beginning to scale up, but they need to raise more capital. And so far, everything that I've just mentioned is private investing. And then the company will have a going public event, an IPO or a DEAC merger, it will become publicly traded. And at that point we're talking about public equities. The big distinction is venture capitalists focus on the private phases that I just described. Early stage venture, mid and late stage venture traders tend to focus on trading public equities or public tokens. Well, I haven't talked about tokens just yet. I'm just. Okay, what is. So you could think about Genentech, which was a life sciences company, was backed here in Silicon Valley by venture capitalists. It raised more capital as it began to scale and then it became a public company, and then it was acquired and became part of an even bigger Swiss company. But the important point was that in its formation phases, it was backed by venture capitalists. Nowadays it's traded by traders, tokens. Bryce actually go through the same stages. So a typical token project will have a formation phase when the founders will have a good sense of what they want to do. They'll set up a foundation, they'll allocate some of the tokens to the community and to themselves. But they often need some capital to get started and they'll often invite an investor to provide them some of the capital by buying some tokens, formation seed. They'll do a couple of private rounds perhaps, and then they'll have their token generation event and they'll become public liquid tokens by the time they're public. Liquid tokens and Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, they're all publicly traded liquid tokens. It's a world of traders. Okay, So I would argue that the, the skills you need to be early are the skills of a venture capitalist. You're going to have to do a lot of due diligence. You need to get in front of the teams, understand who they are, know if they have the, the skills they need to do what they say they're going to do. Understand their white paper, their vision, their strategy. That's a venture capital investment decision. By the time it's publicly traded, I'd be the first person to say traders with edge are probably the best when it comes to figuring out will this token price go up or down. And it's often not connected to the fundamentals, especially in, in the world of tokens, there often is very little connection between the price and the price movement v, the software that's being written and the products and services that are being brought to market on the platform, the protocol or whatever it is.
- [14:21]
Bryce
Yeah, it's a good point. It's one of the biggest questions and maybe even criticism still surrounding crypto is, you know, how do you know, I get this asked a lot. You know, how do you kind of rationalize around valuations? You could go to, you know, the stock market, you could find something that's trading at a, you know, five times multiple or, you know, 10 times forward earnings or whatever. In crypto, there's not a lot of that. And so as an investor, and I guess again, you have to separate in your mind between a trader and investor. So I'll just ask you, as an early stage sort of venture investor, like, how do you decide what gets the green flag where you, you want to buy that versus the red flag?
- [15:00]
Matthew Lamurle
Yes. So in early stage venture, whether it's equities or tokens, what actually matters most is the quality of the team, the vision of whatever it is that they say they're going to do, and your conviction that they can get it done. And so you can go to Sandhill Road here in Silicon Valley, you can talk to early venture funds, and they will always talk a lot more about the quality of the team and the quality of the idea than the discounted cash flow of the projections and the business plan. By the time you get to late stage private investing or private equity, the numbers matter a lot. You're now talking about how are you going to value Kraken or Anchorage or Copper. These are blockchain companies. They have real businesses, real products, real services, customers that are paying money. And hopefully you can do more of a discounted cash flow analysis of what you think their value is. By the time you're talking conventionally about public equities, I would say most public equity analysts spend most of their time analyzing the numbers. They'll be Talking to the CEOs or the CFOs of the companies about strategies and directions and the like. But at the end of the day, they're valuing public equities based upon discounted cash flow and models. Tokens are a bit confusing because the reality is most tokens have no intrinsic value in the sense no one's actually building any software or is trying to build products and services to market. Now, obviously, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, these are, these are real communities and networks of software developers building real software. But you don't have to go very far down the rankings of tokens by market cap before you start getting to tokens where it's a price, it's a traded token with the price, but there actually isn't any software being built on top of the, the token. And here it's, it's not my world. I mean, I, I, I, I recognize that traders need prices to trade and I don't think there's anything wrong with having a speculative asset. But if there's no software being built on top of it, then I don't see how it can generate products and services that in turn generate, you know, revenue and transaction fees and profitability over time. So it's not really what I do. I, I'm not a trader, I'm a long term venture investor.
- [17:57]
Bryce
I love it and I think that's a, it's a good binary. It's like, you know, the meme coins, right? It's just these literally these, you know, amorphous digital representations of a community. It's like, how do you value that? I don't know. Right. So they're going to trade on pure speculation versus something like Solana where there's, you know, lots of transactions and cash flows going to the validators and stakers and all this kind of stuff. You could, you could kind of value things a little bit more. So we don't need to get too into the weeds there. But I love that sort of, you know, contrast that we kind of keep bringing to the front of like folks who are watching need to know their lane. Are you a trader? If you are, then be married to risk management and trying to find your edge and whether it's on chain data or technical analysis, like define your edge. But if you're, you know, want to take the long term approach because, you know, you're not the trader kind, then you know, be married to the game of, you know, finding out who the teams are, doing your diligence on that, doing you know, track record analysis and total addressable market and you know, and, and kind of stick to your, stick to your lane.
- [19:01]
Matthew Lamurle
But I believe that's really important. Bryce I think the biggest mistakes occur when someone enters an asset class assuming that the, the skills that they have are going to be able to be applied. But the reality is they don't understand the asset class they're in. So you know, you can't be a trader backing early stage venture projects. And I think most early stage venture capitalists would probably not make Very good traders either. And in fact, it gets really complex if we start layering questions like valuation. Because you did ask, how do I think about valuation? Well, I think about valuation in efficient markets completely different than valuation in inefficient markets. And across the asset classes that represent blockchain and crypto, we have everything from the most inefficient markets to the most efficient markets. So the very notion of how do you value something? Changes a lot based upon, you know, where you begin and what you're looking at.
- [20:13]
Bryce
Very well said, man. Yeah, we could do a, a whole entire pop, you know, probably podcast series on, on that right there. But in the time that we have left, I do want to ask you kind of one question, and it was surrounding just like where you kind of see us at in the market today. You know, here we are again, early springtime 2025. There's a lot that's going on with uncertainties surrounding the macro, but with crypto specifically, kind of where are we at, you know, in this cycle? And how do you kind of make sense of it all?
- [20:46]
Matthew Lamurle
Thanks. So let's actually start with the public liquid markets. So if we go into the public liquid markets, which on the crypto side means bitcoin on through all the altcoins on the token side, on the equity side, you're talking about a handful of companies, Coinbase, some, Some miners like Riot and Marathon and so on up in that end of the world. I think that there are very few large investors in the world that aren't now taking out a pencil and trying to figure out if they need to participate. The reality is most of them have not yet begun. So if you take pension funds, retirement systems, sovereign wealth funds, large corporate treasurers, most of them have no exposure, not even to bitcoin. In fact, if you listen to Matt Hougan over at Bitwise, he'll tell you that even when you get to wealth advisors, you're talking about 10 to 15% of their customers will have some Bitcoin. And even if they, the wealth advisor, like 50% do and 50% don't, most of them have not yet started helping their clients gain exposure. So. So the big.
- [22:01]
Bryce
Even if they do it personally is what you're saying. Most of them aren't even doing it with their clients.
- [22:05]
Matthew Lamurle
That's right. That's right. If you're, if you're a broker that works at a Morgan Stanley or something like this, the chances are that your company does not let you yet propose crypto to any of your clients. So if clients ask for it, that's one thing, but you're not allowed to go out and promote it. So. So starting with this end of the spectrum, I think there's enormous demand yet to come online for the large cap cryptos and here I'm talking about Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana and so on. And since they're businesses, those that have businesses like Ethereum and Solana, since their businesses are still trending upwards in terms of the functionality in the software and what it can do, I'm very bullish that we'll see a lot of growth in the value of those projects over time as the demand continues to increase the supply at least in some cases like bitcoin being fixed. Now as you go down the public liquid tokens, you quite quickly run out of large cap and you start getting into the lower cap projects which we also call altcoins. And here I have a bit of a question mark. Where are we? We thought we were in the first part of a bitcoin cycle that would normally mean the altcoins would bounce back with a surge probably beginning the second half of this year and into next. That's what we've seen for most of the last three cycles. Bitcoin leads, the altcoins follow. I think actually we might be seeing that relationship break. And I think the reason is that the world is now overloaded with too many tokens. And so even though I think there's some great tokens and great projects building real software who deserve to be worth a lot more than they are, I think that we are flooded with you said meme coins or, or altcoins that where, where they're really just the price point and I don't know that those will come surging back so. So I don't know what we can expect the rest of this year in interne next on the altcoins and I would say be very selective and have a good rationale for why you're buying what you're buying or selling what you're selling in terms of the late stage private. So now I'm moving back to private investing mid and late stage. It's a great time because we've had an overhang of highly valued real companies in blockchain that just couldn't progress, they couldn't go public, they the, the big acquirers were not willing to buy anything. We think all of that is now opening up. So we think we'll see a lot of going public events. IPOs and de SPAC mergers for public blockchain companies. We also think we'll see more and more mega mergers like, like we saw with, you know, with a block recently or we just saw last week with Kraken and Ninja Trader. We think there'll be more and more multi billion dollar acquisitions in the space. And then going all the way back to early, early venture. I think it's, it's a continuation. The innovation hasn't stopped. Good teams can still launch a startup. Venture capitalists will still back you, but you need to be state of the art. You need to use the best technologies. You need to understand, just as an example, how AI can be deployed to write code in, in a blockchain project. You need to be current. But we, we, we've always seen in the past that the innovation doesn't stop. It takes 20 and 30 years to really bring a whole new technology to the world. The Internet or like in life sciences or clean energy. It takes a long time. I don't think there's anything wrong to be an engineer starting out today, but you do need to be state of the art. You can't be sort of rehashing old stories. You need to be using the new latest technologies and approaches in whatever startup you're launching.
- [26:30]
Bryce
I love it. And that kind of ties into my final question because it's essentially like, if we kind of look out in 10 years, what's going to be the most valuable kind of crypto company? And I guess this also ties into, you know, the spac stuff, because the spacs, they, they go out and they try and find a target to acquire and to bring public. And there's people that are out there that are building startups that are like, you know, what, what startup should I build? And so there's all these kind of people that are thinking about 10 years, is it going to be a crypto exchange? Is it going to be a crypto miner, Is it going to be a crypto custodian? Or any of the other companies that are kind of that type are going to be out there. And I want to pose that to you. What do you think?
- [27:15]
Matthew Lamurle
Yeah. So Bryce, I think first, the innovation never stops. So if you'd asked me that question in 95 be 2005 be 2015, you know, the new innovation would have been just around the Corner. And in 2005, we wouldn't have even been predicting that Apple was going to launch apps or that Uber and Airbnb were about to surface, you see, so, so that's the first point. The most valuable company in the future. And you went 10 years out. You know, in 10 years time, some of them will be doing the things we already know about and some of them will be doing things we haven't yet even imagined.
- [27:58]
Bryce
I love that.
- [27:59]
Matthew Lamurle
I think, yeah, for your audience, those of them who are themselves innovators and entrepreneurs, what that means is don't stop, you know, keep on dreaming, keep on creating. There will be things we can't even imagine that will be, you know, live and, and, and launched and expanding in year 10. Now, if you ask me about the other side of that coin, which is what do we already know about and where will it be in 10 years? I think my experience has always been that we start with a lot and then we have a shakeout and we end up with fewer. So if I'm talking about the mainframe operating system wars, or the mobile operating system wars, or the app wars, or the, you know, the music online wars, it always starts the same way. You have a lot of people trying to do it and then you end up with a fewer number and you have some degree of consolidation and you have some degree of aggregation. And so you asked me, you just said, is it a wallet, is it an exchange, is it an on off ramp company? I think we'll see all those things consolidating together into. So if you look at China right now and you go to Alipay and we pay, they are super apps, right? You, you, you, you get your wallet. There is an exchange. You can buy and sell crypto, but you can also lend and borrow money and, and you can invest in public equities and you can take out insurance all on the same app and like.
- [29:31]
Bryce
Network with your friends and stuff too on that same app.
- [29:34]
Matthew Lamurle
Exactly, exactly. And they have all of the social and browsing and content sharing all into the same app. So my expectation is that our crypto industry will begin to consolidate together and we'll begin to see the rise of players that do many things. And so, you know, if you're Coinbase, you started off with crypto and then you added base and, but you, before long, I expect we'll see securities and public equities at Coinbase and then who knows, maybe Coinbase will offer insurance products and. I don't know what I mean. My point is simply that the things we're already looking at will likely combine and converge and then we'll get shocked and surprised by a whole new set of innovations we can't even imagine. And so if your audience are entrepreneurs that says keep on going, keep on being creative, Keep on dreaming and keep on launching businesses. But if you're investors, it's a bit more difficult. It says, by all means, carry on supporting new teams and new projects, but start being more discriminating about where you're parking the capital you already have. And you need to start asking the question, am I in the winning company or the winning project or not? And you may need to move your money around as things change, because Alice and I, we backed ink to me. You don't even remember Inc. To me, I don't know. No, I know. It was the world's best search engine technology platform. And so things like altavista and Ask Jeeves were driven by. To me, to me got killed by Google. And so we, we lived it painfully. It was like we were in the right place at the right time and then we weren't and it'd be the same. You could be a MySpace investor and. And then all of a sudden you regret that you didn't move some of your money over to being a Facebook investor. So I think in the world of tokens, you need to think about that as well. When you and I got started, Bryce, if you look at the top 10 tokens by market cap, some of them are still there and some of them aren't.
- [31:57]
Bryce
It's true. It's it. It always blows my mind at the turnover of that top 10 by market cap. It's like each year there's like a 50% turnover or more, you know?
- [32:07]
Matthew Lamurle
Yes, yes. So you're making two decisions. One is, what am I? Well, three decisions. What am I current? What am I going to back in this cycle? Where am I going to leave my money to ride and where should I be? Getting liquidity now and redeploying capital. And I think those three decisions all go together.
- [32:27]
Bryce
I love it. Matt, that is an incredible way to kind of wrap up this conversation. Where can people kind of find out more about your work and maybe follow you online or even potentially reach out about investing?
- [32:41]
Matthew Lamurle
Yeah. Thanks a lot, Bryce. So we're Blockchain Co investors.com and we do have a lot of free content. So just like you do a great job with your show, we put out newsletters and, and blogs and other information. We share everything we, we learn. And you can just go to blockchain co investors.com and sign up the other thing we have. Bryson, you're not going to be happy about this. Alice and I created the world's first 100 AI channel for blockchain news. It's called Block Talk AI and you can find it on Spotify and Apple. It's literally a hundred percent AI driven blockchain news 15 minutes or less every day. And we'd like people to take a look at that and see if that helps them as well.
- [33:29]
Bryce
No, that is awesome. And I've actually seen, I don't know if I've seen yours in particular, but I have seen talk shows that are now news and the, the hosts are completely AI driven and I'm sure they're just reading an AI generated script and so on. But yeah, I mean that's, that's a whole other thing that we want to get extra, extra smart on here because it's going to impact every aspect of investing and every industry regardless. Right?
- [33:53]
Matthew Lamurle
I think so too. And the other part is in blockchain and crypto, the traditional media was so bad and so negative towards us and so censoring of the information they were willing to share. We just said, let's get an AI to give the straight, the straight scoop 15 minutes or less every day. And that's what block talk AI is.
- [34:17]
Bryce
That's awesome. Well, hey, we're gonna check it all out. And again, thank you so much for joining us and everybody at home. Stick around. We're gonna have some more great guests for you coming up.
- [34:36]
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