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- [00:00]
David Carvajal
Foreign.
- [00:09]
Bryce Paul
Everybody, welcome back to another exciting, action packed, dare I say, high caliber episode here of the Crypto 101 podcast. I am your co host, Bryce Paul, as always, joined by my good buddy across the country, Mr. Brendan Veeman. Brendan, how goes it today in the sunny state of Florida?
- [00:30]
Brendan Veeman
Well, it's not so sunny today, but, you know, we're entering in the hurricane season, but everything's good, man. We're having a good time over here. The crypto market is on fire. We're starting to see a little bit of fall in that. That pesky bitcoin dominance that has been bugging the altcoin market for a little bit now. So all things considered, Bryce, I'm doing fantastic and I'm stoked for another pod.
- [00:51]
Bryce Paul
Yeah, we'll definitely hunker down there. I guess, you know, during these stormy seasons, you just don't want to go outside. But what better way to not go outside is just, you know, spend time inside crushing this bull market. There are so many exciting protocols and new networks that are coming out, and we have some incredible guests here on the show. I'm really excited to speak with Norris Protocol founder and CEO David Carvajal, as well as the chief of strategy, David Holtzman. We're graced with both of your presence, David and David. David Carvalho will say hi to use first, so the audience knows which David, you are the CEO and founder, and then David Holtzman will go to you next.
- [01:35]
David Holtzman
Awesome. Pleasure to be here. Hello, everybody.
- [01:38]
Bryce Paul
And Mr. Holtzman, how goes it?
- [01:41]
David Carvajal
Everything's fine. Hello.
- [01:43]
Bryce Paul
I love it. Now, we're excited to dive into NARS Protocol. You guys are doing some. Some really incredible stuff in the sort of the cybersecurity world. And we want to just get acquainted with your backgrounds before we dive into the Protocol. David Carvalho, give us a little brief on who you are and how you came to be the founder of Norris Protocol.
- [02:03]
David Holtzman
Sure. I'll give you a quick one. So I'm originally from Portugal. My background is in cryptography and also in cybersecurity. So I've been a cybersecurity researcher for more than 20 years. I've been an ethical hacker for 25 years, and I've been global chief security for a number of multibillion dollar companies, both in Europe and also in the UK Mainly kind of like highly regulated spaces, airports, things like this. And I've been advising a number of supernational institutions and also nation states on cyber warfare, cyber espionage, data protection, cyber terrorism mitigation, and many other areas that tend to be critical to countries mainly under the European Union and the NATO umbrella. And it was connected to. It was in connection to these environments or these centers that former leaders of these areas thought this was a good idea. And I decided to leave corporate and dedicate my. Which is now my life, to Norris Merkel.
- [03:08]
Bryce Paul
Wow. Incredible. So fighting off, like all the bad guys, basically, in cyberspace, it sounds like. As an ethical hacker and a national security advisor, I gotta ask, just out of the gate here, what kind of keeps you up at night knowing what you know about the underbelly of cybersecurity?
- [03:28]
David Holtzman
Well, what keeps me up at night, there's two main areas. One is the fact that all cybersecurity in the world is centralized. So the whole world is a collection of single points of failure that are just waiting to be dominated or taken over that will lead to access to everything they're connected to. And that's not changing unless web3 becomes the backbone of this. And the other part of it is just the fact, talking about Web3 more directly. So, for example, blockchain themselves, they provide or they promise immutability and protection against double spend and all that. Then quantum technology threatens that promise unless you react now. So it's the whole cryptographic backbone of blockchain. Blockchains, but also in the real world, everything from, like nuclear secrets to, you know, blockchains themselves and consensus mechanisms is completely based on the cryptographic standard that quantum computers threaten. And we are completely resilient, too. And that's one of the backbones of what we're doing.
- [04:32]
Brendan Veeman
Wow.
- [04:32]
Bryce Paul
Yeah. Quantum resistance is. Is going to be huge. Mr. David Holtzman, we want to dive into a little bit about how you came to being chief of strategy here at NARS Protocol, a little bit about your background, and then I just think for fun, I'll toss the same question to you at the end of what keeps you up at night? As a cybersecurity expert, have you ever.
- [04:51]
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- [07:46]
David Carvajal
Sure. My background's different than David's. There's some similarities. I started a long time ago as I was an intelligence agent, spoke Russian, I was a cryptographer, worked for the National Security Agency, and I was a submariner, and I spent four years at the end of the Cold War and I spoke Russian. So you can kind of guess what was going on there. You know, the wall fell. I realized that was a bad job prospect. I'd been using computers anyway, picked up degrees in computers and I was basically became one of the early Internet guys. In the 80s, I was a chief scientist at IBM. I ran research at Booz Allen and Hamilton and a couple other things. And then I ended up at a company called Network solutions in the mid-90s. And they're small company, less than 100 people. And, you know, the Internet was just kicking off. The commercial Internet was just kicking off. But this company ran the domain name system. So I joined the cto and then I ran the domain name system and then the dot com bubble happened. So when I got there, there were like, I don't know, like 75,000 domain names. When I left, there were 10 million. And that's, that's the bubble. And I watched just everything go crazy. We had no security. I ran a data center that had the root servers of the Internet in it. And I mean, you could just pull the plug and the whole Internet would just stop. And because we did it once by accident. So I know that we had, we had. We didn't even have locks on the doors. It was just, you know, it was just a warehouse, you know, with just plain old Yale locks. So everything changed then because people started becoming aware of what the Internet was. And I had to explain it to almost every single member of Congress. They took bus tours down to where my data center was and I would explain it like, you know, 80 or 90 at a time. And they're. I'm sure things have changed, but back in the, in the mid to late 90s, they were dumb as rocks out of like 400. And some people, they, they asked the most ignorant, stupid questions about the Internet that, I mean, if we had time, I could tell you just horrible, horrible things. And this is why we don't have any legislation yet about any of this. And as crypto guys, I think we can all be thankful for that. Yeah, they. They don't know how to do it. So Anyway, so I. Y2K happened. During Y2K, I was running the root servers of the Internet and the entire domain name system. I designed the new domain name system registration and I built it. And this goes back to what David was saying. I built it to be decentralized because during this whole period I came to really dislike the idea of centralized switching for authentication. Because in the non digital world, you know, big deal. But as the digital world starts to emerge, I mean that if you're centralized, you can, you can control everyone. So I designed the domain name registration system so that. That's not completely feasible. But when, you know, we can talk about this later, but in this kind of goes into the question you wanted me to answer anyway. But when you look at a lot of these big data breaches, they're almost never the company whose name gets attached to it. Like Equifax, Office of Personnel Management, what.
- [11:45]
Bryce Paul
Was it, Solar, Yahoo.
- [11:47]
David Carvajal
Target and Yahoo. Right. TJ Maxx got hit. So it's not, it's never them. It's a service provider because they all outsource security issues, they outsource point of sales, point of sale stuff, they outsource authentication and then these guys screw up and they're always some little company in, you know, Ohio or something that you've never heard of, and they basically hack off half the United States. We're talking hundreds of millions of people on some of these hacks. That's what keeps me up tonight because I don't think people understand that. And that's what we're doing in Norris. And that's why I wanted to come and help David because. And he'll talk more about it. But the technology he's designed is, it's brilliant and it supports this capability.
- [12:41]
Bryce Paul
You're talking about traditional sort of cyber security relying on. And both of you guys have kind of alluded to this centralization factor that is just like horrifying. And you're just like, you know, we got to kind of wake up the average everyday person of the fact that there's so many security vulnerabilities in our banking system or E commerce system or you name it. Pretty much everything relies on this Internet architecture that's centralized and, and I'll let both of you guys kind of take a crack at this from different angles. But, you know, how is decentralization, which is a core, you know, tenant of everything crypto related that we've talked on this podcast for like you know, 10 years. You know, what, what, what is decentralization in this capacity? And why is it so much better for critical infrastructure?
- [13:26]
David Carvajal
Well, my, Mine, mine is going to be philosophical and slightly anarchistic. So it, the, the whole centralization, decentralization thing, it's, it's kind of a red herring because what it, what we're talking about underneath is the degree of governmental control over our lives. So centralized anything makes it a lot easier to control you. Blockchain, by its very nature, takes many, many things out of the hands of people who want it, who want to dick with it. And I think that's great. I mean, I would much rather have, you know, symmetrical keys, you know, have a private and a public key system where I control my own private key, then have to give a password to Google or Microsoft or Amazon, because they are the government. I mean, in the 21st century, I mean, you know, Elon Musk is the richest guy in the world there. These, these people control everything. So I believe that this is, it's a political thing and it's a freedom thing. And if we want to be free and we want to have the ability to say what we're thinking and to own cryptocurrencies without having to report every single thing you have to the government, which, you know is coming, you know, you need decentralization. There's just no way around it. Oh, and by the way, as an added benefit, when you add smart contracts in on blockchains, you're basically getting rid of about 80% of all the lawyers, which is. I said there's a little bit of.
- [15:20]
Bryce Paul
Anarchy in that answer, but what's your take, Mr. Carvalho?
- [15:25]
David Holtzman
Well, I'm pretty much aligned with everything that it said, you know, and I would be happy to press the, the, the, you know, like, libertarian, anarchist part of it as well. More. But I'll just give it a little bit, maybe a different perspective and explain a little bit the context of knowledge protocol and why. So the reason why is important because, you know, every, as I mentioned before, every system, every piece of hardware, every application, every service, every API, anything that does anything digitally is a centralized thing, unfortunately. So blockchains themselves, they are not magical, right? They don't operate in the atmosphere on top of nothing. Right. They are running on top of centralized systems themselves. So they're running on servers, in the cloud, on validators, on people's homes, whatever, right? These are all central points of failure to the environments where they operate. They can be hacked, keys can be stolen. The same thing with wallets same thing with exchanges, so on and so forth. There's no difference between the centralized environments and this, because these are centralized environments. The only difference is that blockchains are the decentralization side of things under consensus and you know, under a strong cryptographic standard that right now is under threat because of quantum. Right. And it's very backbone or foundation. So that, that's a good idea and that's much better than centralization. But the principle is that, that every device is a single point of failure to everything it is connected to is a very bad principle. Right? And that hasn't changed ever. So I think for the first time we have the opportunity to change these, you know, this primitive, let's say, this fundamental issue by applying, you know, a very resilient post quantum cryptographic standard on top of everything that runs that, you know, could be hardware, could be software, could be anything and we can prove its state for the first time under consensus. So as it is operating, for example, say a wallet and I want to make transactions with this wallet or make logins with the wallet, or it could be a banking application, could be anything. You want it to be in a trusted state as it operates and you want that to be transparent and very resilient. So that's really what the Norge protocol has created. We are at sub layer zero, we call it the sub zero layer post quantum infrastructure for Web three and Web two. So it's a native Web three infrastructure that was designed to secure the entire blockchain stack as we know it and also outside of blockchains, because any digital system is a potential blockchain with our ecosystem from future quantum threats in existing centralized threats. So without requiring any hard forks. So that means that any other chain can actually use this without going back and hard forking and making every transaction since the beginning of time and many other complexities. So we combine kind of like decentralized ethos of Web3 with real world proven security principles that are the most mature areas, obviously backed by a number of NATO level, let's say, commands, let's say, or directions or mandates, basically the technology itself meets the tougher standards in the real world, which is something that blockchains are missing because in general, even if you look at say, you know, fundamental cryptography in blockchains, we're looking at like 256 bits, which is 32 bytes, right? If you multiply or divide by eight, that's really low even compared to for example, your traditional VPN at home, which you're probably working at. I don't know. RSA 2048, which is 10 times more. And of course there is the consensus mechanism that makes it more resilient. However, when Quantum comes into the picture, all of that goes out of the window. Right. And the consensus mechanism doesn't matter anymore because the fundamental cryptography that's maintaining the blockchain and signing the transactions and all these things is at threat. Right. It's under risk. And so our focus is on empowering Web3 through this technology to be the backbone for everything from on chain finance to real world enterprise applications supporting security through Web3, so that basically any centralized or decentralized infrastructure becomes exponentially more resilient through web3, even without knowing that web3 is present. So the objective is to make every application, process, service, piece of hardware part of a consensus that validates the state of every other. Right. In a very resilient post Quantum way.
- [20:21]
David Carvajal
Oh, I'm sorry, I just wanted to add a small thing on what he said. Looking at business and economics, it's not going back again. So this Web two, Web three distinction we're talking about, we're close enough, we can talk about it now. Web2 is going away and, and Quantum is coming in whether we like it or not. And that means post Quantum is coming. So, you know, you might as well, you might as well deal with it. And that's kind of part of the message. And most of the small governments we've talked to actually completely get this, which I think is fascinating and, and that we've had a lot of success. David's on the road all the time dealing with these guys and, and it's because of that, so it's inevitable.
- [21:14]
Brendan Veeman
I'm curious, how far away do you think that quantum computing is? Because it seems like different people in this space have a different idea of, you know, maybe this is farther, maybe this is closer than we think. I've seen people say maybe 15 years on the short side, maybe 30 years on the far side. But then with AI, you have to think that that timeline and that process has accelerated.
- [21:39]
David Holtzman
So I have a much more aggressive view about that. So I published some papers on the idea. Obviously we are very well connected to a number of, how can I say, agencies that work with us and they also have intelligence about these sort of things. Obviously I'm not going to reveal details, but the fact is that we're a lot closer. Like if you look a lot. When I say a lot is like little caps lock a lot. Yeah. Like if you look, for example, at most tier one countries and they're for example, their 2030 plants. And you know, from a technological perspective, they all include quantum in some way. They include quantum resistant, they include quantum cryptography, they include quantum. And even the US and European Union. Very recently, the last year and again this year, they have passed laws saying that all government connected entities that work with the government need to be post quantum resilient by 2030. But this is what's public by 2030. What's private is a whole different story. Now just give an idea. You know, Xi Jinping himself said quantum is a strategic technology for this country. And it's not by chance that, you know, China is investing more in quantum than they are with, for example, in, with their, with their nuclear program. And that tells you how strategic that is. Right? And it's the same kind of investment from the US and Europe combined, what's happening in China. Having said that, quantum computers are in constant evolution. So as David likes to to say, they are not activity, they are real and they are not, how can I say, theoretical, they are an engineering problem. So in other words, you throw enough people at it, enough brands at it, you're going to solve this problem. There's constant innovations on the way of how, you know how to solve quantum computing, scalability issues that basically exponentially puts us close to that Q day. Right? So there's two points I want to make. One is Q day is a lot closer than what you think it is. Second, it is a survivability event. It's kind of like quantum is coming for blockchain and for the real world, like the asteroid has come for the dinosaurs. Okay? And the only difference is that the dinosaurs didn't know what that thing was. We actually know and we see it coming and it's survivability event. And besides being a lot closer, the only way that you can actually prevent what's coming is by being resilient. Now there's this whole thing about this whole harvest now, the crypt later. And that's the point that I want to make about the moment. That Q day being now or in 12 months or in two years is not the issue. The issue is that your data, your transactions, your keys, your signatures are being captured right now and they're being stored in somebody else's hard drive, right? And it could be for web3 or for other purposes like espionage or whatever, right? And it's all based on the same cryptography that quantum computers are really good at breaking. And once it's in somebody else's hard drive, there's nothing you can do about that. And it's just. It's just waiting for the moment that they can all be broken pretty much simultaneously and that access will be given to that threat actor. Now, the only way for it to prevent that is to be quantum resilient now, because that stuff is being harvested now. And this is my point about, you know, the Q day being irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it's in one year or in two years or three or in six months, because your data is already somewhere else. And guess what? Nobody ever does. Nobody changes keys. But not only that, the backbone of the infrastructures. So if you think, for example, you know, Bitcoin itself or, you know, other cryptographic spaces that hold nuclear secrets or whatever is not going to change, right? So we need to change it now for it to be resilient into the future. Otherwise you won't survive it. So we're not preparing for the quantum future right now. We're already defending against it. And you'll see quotes from, you know, you know, IBM, top people and other people saying that this is happening now. You need to be, you know, secure against it. Now, those warrants won't survive it. Like, the only post quantum defenses that can see quantum attacks coming are quantum resistance. In other words, quantum attacks don't knock. They bypass that. You won't even know that this has happened.
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- [28:32]
David Carvajal
Yeah, there's also a misguided viewpoint that I have seen for decades in technology, and this misguided viewpoint is that technology increases linearly. It does not increase linearly. It's it has jumps. Right? And a perfect example of that is the whole generative AI stuff. It caught me by surprise. I mean, I thought when I first started messing around with chat GPT, I said, holy crap, this is a lot better than I thought it would be at this point. And now everybody's using it for all kinds of crazy stuff. And the adoption curve is probably exponential. It is not linear. So I think that that same model applies to quantum computing, because now there is a very good, there's a very good reason to, to what David's talking about, resilience and store and harvest and all that. I mean, these are things that are going to just push it along. It is an engineering problem, and people know how to solve engineering problems. They innovate. And once there's enough money at stake, I mean, you know, it's going to be something. My guess is it's going to follow the same path of Moore's Law, which is, you know, doubling the number of transistors every 18 months. I think it's going to be something like that because right now we're already at about, I don't know, David probably knows, but about 1200 cubits. I think it's something like that for the, the most public quantum computer. And if they're now that's like Google or something. So if they're announcing that, then you Figure nsa, who lies or doesn't admit things, probably has an order of magnitude more. So they probably have, I don't know, 10,000, 20,000 qubits and you need supposedly a million to have a completely working quantum computer. And I don't believe that either. I think a hundred thousand is probably plenty. And they'll just do. They'll get rid of the rest by extrapolating in software. And also to their benefit, everybody's got all these Nvidia chips that are being accelerated because of the AI stuff. I mean, half of the world's electricity output is quickly going into running Nvidia chips. And you know, and it all started with bitcoin mining and now it's going into AI and it's going to go from there right into quantum computing.
- [31:18]
David Holtzman
Yeah, just since we are about crypto, I just want to say something. Yeah, you're about right on the qubits. Then there's different ways how default tolerance exists and how they are used for logic and so on. But if you're looking at, for example, say breaking ecdsa, the elliptic curve digital signature algorithm used for example, by Bitcoin, would really buy all chains. When signing a transaction, which is the weakest part, you actually create the hash which is public. Right. And that gets, you know, sent for the validators. Right. That's the weakest part of it. You would, you could actually break a single Bitcoin private key once the signature is visible. You know, theoretically, with like 1,500, we have 1,250 publicly. Right. I would argue we're very, very close to this. We're talking like minutes to hours. So assuming that one logical qubit is like 1,000 or 10,000 physical qubits because of error calculation and that the algorithm, there's Shor's algorithm, there's other algorithms that are potentials too. And I'm sure your point, Bryce, about AI was pretty good because AI is going to get us better algorithms. And if this algorithm is just 10 times better or 100 times better, then we're not talking about one key, we're talking about all keys instantaneously at the same time. And that's not just Bitcoin. That would be for everything. Just kind of like to leave you with the quote that I remember from. I think it was somebody in the nsa. The impact of adversarial use of a quantum computer would be absolutely devastating to all national security objectives and our nation and any existing sub processes. So, you know, critical infrastructure, power, whatever, it would be equivalent to like An EMP attack potentially or, or worse. The implications to blockchain, as I mentioned, are absolute. Because everything is crypto. That's why it's called crypto, right? Everything is crypto, cryptography.
- [33:53]
Bryce Paul
It almost reminds me a little, it almost reminds me a little bit of like, like splitting the atom, like the Manhattan Project. You're like, okay, well what good is going to come from this, right? Like, sure, you could use it now for like atomic energy or nuclear energy. Like, we learned a lot about good, positive stuff for humanity that came from the Manhattan Project. But also, you know, it destroyed and, you know, lots of lives and created like nuclear warfare and all that kind of stuff. So I guess my question is what good is going to come from quantum and will that outweigh the bad? And is there like a way to kind of put the rails on this stuff?
- [34:30]
David Holtzman
Can I answer that? You go. There you go.
- [34:34]
David Carvajal
Okay. Well, if you integrate, see, quantum is not going to exist in a vacuum. So quantum computing added to generative AI running on, you know, 40 billion dollar, you know, racks of Nvidia chips. What can't that do? I mean it, I mean it can do anything practically. And that's, we're talking a couple years from now. This isn't like the end of the decade. This is two, three, four years. And oh, by the way, not to get too wacky about this, but if you all know what the singularity is, all of this stuff is going to bring the singularity, you know, when, when the first computer becomes sentient, you know that the, the general consensus is it's 2035 or 2040. Elon Musk thought 2030. I, I think it's going to be 2030 or, and all this stuff's going to happen. And, and you mentioned World War II and, and the atomic bomb. You know, if you look at the state of nuclear physics in 1940 and you, and then realizing when they actually lit off a bomb in early 1945, that was pretty impressive. And that was not a linear innovation curve. And, and there were other countries doing it, Germany was doing it. You know, there were all these, you know, the whole Heisenberg Oppenheimer thing that that movie sort of captured. We're going to see that. I mean, we're going to see it really soon and it's gonna, it's gonna shake, shake the planet down to its social roots. And the nice thing about that is if it happens, the currency everybody's going to use is going to be post quantum cryptocurrency.
- [36:30]
David Holtzman
Yeah, I mean, we Ourselves, we are using that technology, the post quantum cryptography, for actual validations, right? So if you go for example to our testnet, we have done more than 90 million post quantum transactions already about, over about 2.6 million wallets. And these are validations of state of things. But we're using that in a very resilient way. So for example, let's say you want to access your wallet safely, let's say your metamask or whatever, or your hardware wallet. Again, these are centralized points of failure. So if there's some malicious thing that actually tampers with your local metamask or with your local wallet, it's game over, right? It's game over for you. Because yes, the blockchain is going to validate the transaction, but you didn't make it, right? Or it was triggered by a third party. So there is currently no validation of state for anything anywhere. Just think about this. This is huge. It's like we're basically the whole world is operating on a trust me bro basis.
- [37:42]
Bryce Paul
Yeah, trust me bro basis.
- [37:45]
David Holtzman
That's it. Like we're, we're. Whereas sleepwalking into, you know, breaches and anarchy and things that happen, if you don't know why. But the. So the logic is like, why the hell shouldn't we have an always on web 3 post quantum proof, like resilient to quantum computers. But also, you know that nothing is tempering that truth, right? It's a bit philosophical, but about the trust over the truth. So you're seeing something on your screen, but how do you know it's true? It's very important for you to actually have a proof that's transparent that proves that what you're seeing is actually true. Because it's coming from a trusted system that's validated by a huge decentralized, anonymous environment of potentially billions of devices, maybe with satellites in space and on the earth and so on that are part of the consensus telling you that yeah, you can trust that. And if you can trust that you want to operate it, if you cannot trust it, then you don't want to make this transaction, right? So the parallel that you made between the Manhattan Project at the quantum frontier is really interesting because yes, they brought this nukes which kills lots of people, but they also brought this nuclear power, right? And potential nuclear fusion, hopefully, right? Which will be clean, right? They also brought this X rays so you can see your broken bones, you know, and stuff like that, right? So just like any technology, quantum is dual use, right? And you know, the parallel is let's Say, yes, creating the Manhattan Project ended up ending World War II with the bang. Right. But quantum computing, if we are not ready, it will break all Modern cryptography that will support all or that is supporting everything that matters in the world right now. So, you know, that basically threatens the whole global digital infrastructure. And we are here to support on the security side with decentralized infrastructure, as we mentioned before, as we call it the sub zero layer, which is the last frontier that needs to be decentralized, which is infrastructure itself. So this is infrastructure for infrastructure in stopping quantum from ending privacy and ending your, your sovereignty even as a person that creates data and consumes data.
- [40:11]
Brendan Veeman
Yeah, I mean, so what it sounds like is even though the timeline for quantum computing is moving forward, the timeline for quantum resiliency is also moving forward. And that this is a very achievable goal.
- [40:25]
David Holtzman
Yes.
- [40:25]
Brendan Veeman
And so I think that's something that's important for the listeners to understand because they always see these headlines, they, they see, they see these fear articles being put out and it scares them out of a lot of this stuff. But you know, rest assured, there is a solution. There are people working on this. And as we zoom out to the bigger timeline, which is what I want to do now, you know, what does the success of what you are, of what both of you are working on in the next like 5 to 10 years look like? And is this protocol meant to integrate quietly everywhere, like maybe in the background, or is it meant to reshape how the world even like thinks about digital security?
- [41:05]
David Holtzman
Yeah, so I'm sure David has opinions on that. I'll just start with a couple of my own. First of all, I see these as both community driven and also enterprise driven. This is obviously, how can I say, until recently it was military grade technology, that it's very strategic for countries to adopt this. That's why they have these on their 2030 plans, 2040 plans. But from a perspective where we have Web3 and moving into Web4 and other things like that, this is like, I would say it's a fundamental technology. Right. The world is moving on that direction. It's inevitable. And as Brendan was saying, the people are worried and they get afraid. They should be. But at the same time there are solutions. And post Quantum comes before quantum terms of integration, what I see in terms of like, you know, growth and integration with, you know, you know, critical infrastructure, like we're doing for example with European smart cities project, with the other projects related to governments and government technology and critical infrastructure, it's obvious, like the use Case that is obvious for it. But there is, how can I say, I see the community that we have created, which is hundreds of thousands of people, and I see it as kind of like the beating heart of this. So people will be able to come in and explore the SDK and build use cases on top of it for whatever. Insert use case here. And that will lead to an explosion of capability. So what I envision is like in four or five years is like tens of millions. We already have almost a million nodes. But so right now we are the biggest web3 infrastructure. On top of centralized, we're decentralizing things. These were computers that were centralized and now they're part of Web3 infrastructure in the world. And what I expect in five years is to have hopefully billions of devices participating. That will add to the resiliency of everything that humanity wants to do. And as civilization evolves further, and maybe we'll go to Mars and go to the moon again. And all these things, these should be nodes, they shouldn't be points of failure. They should be all communicating and validating each other. Right. So this is what I see. And the people, the community that is, that is driving this, they're going to be the beating heart of the whole ecosystem. They're going to be the anonymous validators that are going to maintain all of these running. You know, again, this is a web3 backbone for a world that is already decentralized physically. They just don't know about it or they're doing it wrong. Right. So yeah, that's what I would say.
- [43:56]
Bryce Paul
I love it. I'm curious if, if like Coinbase for instance, was using NARIS protocol, would they have been able to avoid any of the recent breach? Because I know that recent breach kind of hits close to home for the crypto industry, as many people were affected by sort of a central point of failure. Or was that just completely something?
- [44:15]
David Holtzman
Of course not extensively about this. We have had articles published in, in Forbes and in other environments. Exactly. Explaining why and how this would have been mitigated. But because you see, this is just the kind of like the same thing that David was explaining before that happens in the real world. I mean, outside of blockchains, over and over and over again. Because again, these are centralized environments that, yes, they have blockchains, but the blockchains themselves and their environments are centralized that are serving the things. So yes, there is a key somewhere to be stolen, a system that needs to be infiltrated locally, or some exploit that needs to happen to a single system that leads to everything. Being taken over laterally and vertically and then you don't really own anything anymore. Right. But again, the issue is the point of failure. So if we take that out from a perspective of infrastructure, we are in a much better position resilience wise.
- [45:16]
David Carvajal
So there's another problem with going off what you're saying on centralized systems that I don't think people talk about very much, which is that it also creates not just vertical vulnerabilities inside their own network, it creates horizontal vulnerabilities because other people are using similar, if not the exact same software. In fact, that's what zero days are all about. Zero days are a menace because if, if you have one, you don't just get this computer, you get this and this and this and this until the vendor finds out and it becomes a one day or a two day or something like that. So that with Norris protocol embedded in these things, I think it pretty much wipes out that kind of an impact.
- [46:07]
David Holtzman
From zero to just to finalize, to kind of like make it kind of like go around and touch Web3 again, because all this is Web3 native for the world. Regardless of its Web2 or Web3, what we see ourselves is kind of like the security and assurance and trust providers, let's say, for a decentralized environment. Doesn't matter if it's of centralized or decentralized systems or infrastructures where we actually focus on the security and trust of everything and the proof of state of all the things with post quantum fingerprints, all the validators, while existing chains continue to focus on scalability and speed, which is the focus. This is how we see things operating.
- [46:53]
Bryce Paul
Wow. No, it's crazy. And I think one of the, I guess criticisms that I'd like you guys to discuss kind of as we wrap up about decentralization is that sometimes it's slower and it'll reduce response time and you know, centralization is there because of that scalability dilemma. And so people centralize things because it's more efficient and speedy. Is that a fallacy? What's your guys's take?
- [47:19]
David Holtzman
I'll quickly mention Deepin here and of course it is a fallacy. It's, you know, when you look at any nascent technology it looks like, oh, you know, this is never going to work. Look at the electric car, you know, can only drive, I don't know, 30 miles or whatever. You know, it's always like that for any new technology and then it matures a whole different story. Like, you know, I was going to pull up here, our website quickly and we have basically proven that. So we have, three months ago we have started what we're calling our testnet, which is really kind of like a beta mainnet because it has our own chain, our own consensus mechanism operating. And we have 911 nodes that have done more than 86 million post quantum transactions. If you go to the explorer, you'll see the, the transaction hashes have like six pages instead of just one line. So these are quote unquantum hashes. If you haven't never seen one, you can go there and check it. And we have, under this environment, which is decentralized space, mitigated almost half a billion threats just with this specific use case. So we have, just to give you an idea, this is in three months that's more threats mitigated than $100 billion companies out there. I'm not going to mention their names, but this shows you that actually decentralized physical infrastructure, or meshes of it, which is our case, are actually way more competent at achieving high throughput, high speed things than centralized systems. If you look, for example, there's so many projects right now, for example, dealing with distributed storage and computation for AI and many other things also on the deep in space and you can see like it's so much more efficient. Like it costs you like a hundred times less to do the same computation with distributed computation of the participants and it costs you to go to the cloud and do it right. And the people are still paying for electricity and still they're making money. So it's already happening.
- [49:24]
David Carvajal
So also if you look at say the early days of computing, like the first 30 years, if you look at the algorithm for data retrieval, it was, it was linear and it was really slow and it got slower and slower and slower. And then people came up with this concept of having cash and then you have a hit, a hit ratio. So and, and that, and the same thing happened to the Internet because the Internet got really slow about three years after it started. And then companies like Akamai came up and started putting like, you know, edge storage around the Internet. So you don't really go to the website. You're trying to go over 90% of the time because it's cached somewhere. The same thing's going to happen. I mean we're going to have an incentive to build similar systems and it's going to make it even faster than it is now. And it's already faster than centralized systems.
- [50:25]
Bryce Paul
Yeah, no, that's, that's super interesting. And you know, somebody explained what cash was to me, in a very simple thing, they're like, if I asked you, like, what 165 times 65 was, and I asked you right now, would you be able to figure it out? And, like, probably not. Off the top of my head. I need, like, a calculator, whatever. He's like, all right, well, I'll tell you. The answer is 10,725. Let me ask you the same question 165 times. 65. I was like, oh, well, I know. I know the answer. He's like, yeah, that's what caching is. You put that memory right next to, you know, where it's going to be accessed rapidly and. And many times. And like, we basically did that, you know, not we, but like the people who architected caching and the Internet, like they. They algorithm, you know, made an algorithm to do that. And I was like, oh, wow, that's. That's pretty crazy. And so it's funny you bring that up because I think a lot of people are, like, listening, like, oh, cash, like digital cash, like, you know, money. And it's like, no, you're talking about the way that, you know, memory is accessed.
- [51:15]
David Carvajal
C, A, C, H, E. And it's not just memory. It's. It's disk drives. So if you look at, you know, almost any computer and you actually analyze how many times it's really going to a disk when you think you're going to the disk, that the hit ratio on those things, I don't, like, 96, 97%. So that means 96% of the time, whatever you're asking for is already cached. And I'm sure the edge parts of the network's cloud, you know, the Azure and aws, I'm sure their ratio is probably even higher than that.
- [51:56]
David Holtzman
Actually. That reminds me of, you know, my background is, you know, from a university perspective. Is it? And I remember a cash joke that we had, and this was the kind of thing that you would say, and that would be like, one person, like, ha. So that's actually similar what you were saying, and it was something like, why did the CPU break up with the cache? Because. Because it kept bringing up old memories. That's what the cash does.
- [52:29]
Bryce Paul
I love it. Now, this has been super fascinating, and it's something that we could, you know, Brandon and I are still trying to learn about quantum. Quantum resiliency, how it applies to, you know, all of our listeners at the end of the day. And so we really appreciate all of you. You, you know, all the work that you and your team are doing to push forward quantum resiliency. And for you guys to come on here, the dynamic duo of the Davids here to walk us through where could we kind of follow along with the journey. We'll make sure to put these in the show notes. I know you guys are Narus Protocol on X. Any other places like David, you mentioned you were blogging quite often and so on.
- [53:09]
David Holtzman
Yeah. So a good place to follow us of course is at norris protocol.com or noris.com there's also our discord and also our, our telegram in there that you can find and participate and you know, participate in different ways or even join. Join our mainnet testnet. So on our public cell is currently going so you can also find that information about that all over Twitter and in different locations. Follow up the news around us. There's lots, lots of things, as you said, blogs and videos like this. Of course, you guys are the best. And a number of other publications. Yeah, there's a lot to follow. There's also peer reviewed papers with universities and supernational organizations that we have worked with that are also posted in our site and also in publications of that kind of thing if that tickles your fancy for the 0.1% of people listening. But yeah, that's, that's what I would say.
- [54:09]
Bryce Paul
Awesome. Well, thank you gentlemen so much for coming on the show. We hope everybody at home listening or watching, whether it's on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, wherever you guys are in the world, you're certainly in the right place because you guys are getting one step closer to mastering your own financial destiny and mastering your own sovereignty with this sort of technology here at Naris Protocol. So everybody watching, thank you for joining and gentlemen, we'll, we'll talk soon.
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