Ep. 693 Inside the Fetch.ai and Ocean Rift — Humayun Sheikh on AI, Decentralization, and the Future of ASI/Fetch.ai

Summary

CRYPTO 101 | Ep. 693 Recap: Inside the Fetch.ai & Ocean Rift with Humayun Sheikh

Date: December 2, 2025
Hosts: Bryce Paul & Brendan Viehman
Guest: Humayun Sheikh, Founder of Fetch.ai

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the recent turbulence within the Artificial Super Intelligence (ASI) Alliance, focusing on the split between Fetch.ai and Ocean Protocol. Humayun Sheikh, Fetch.ai’s founder, gives his perspective on the alliance’s promise, Ocean’s abrupt departure, the controversial token conversion, and the broader implications for AI and blockchain collaboration. The conversation also explores advances in agentic AI, competition with tech giants, the future of AI-first applications, and practical optimism about energy and technological scalability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Founding & Purpose of the ASI Alliance

• Alliance Structure: The alliance, originally comprising Fetch.ai, Singularity, and Ocean—later joined by Kudos—was formed to create a deep, modular "tech stack" for decentralized AI.
• Tech Stack Components:
  • Fetch.ai: Agentic AI
  • Singularity: Advanced AI research and blockchain
  • Ocean: Data tools/data tokenization
  • Kudos: Decentralized compute
• Goal: Simplify the deployment of decentralized AI solutions, reducing technical and token friction.
  • “We felt very comfortable that our tech stack was and actually still is pretty much at the cutting edge. It’s probably one of the deepest tech stacks…in our crypto space.” — Humayun Sheikh [02:55]

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2. The Ocean Rift: Token Controversy & Fallout

Background

• Ocean was to provide a large pool of community reward tokens (50% of supply) as incentives for building out the ecosystem.
• A vision paper detailed the 10–20 year roadmap for fair token distribution.

What Went Wrong [04:00–12:50]

• Ocean decided to leave the alliance, which Humayun characterizes as their right.
• Before leaving, Ocean converted a massive share of the alliance reward tokens (meant for community projects) into FET tokens and began selling them.
• Fetch.ai discovered this, first suspecting a hack, but learned Ocean had rebranded its custodial structure and claimed full right to the tokens.

Allegations & Impact

• Humayun alleges misrepresentation and calls it, essentially, a rug pull:
  • “You can’t just convert all the tokens, convert it into FET and then dump it on the community. That’s not right. It’s meant for community tokens. You’ve declared this going to be done over 10 years.” [13:14]
• Damage to trust, legal action underway, and assertion that this is a landmark case in crypto (class action for misrepresentation).

Notable Exchange:

• “If you made a misrepresentation about that many tokens…about that much money, you know, I would be bordering into fraud.” — Humayun Sheikh [19:59]
• “It sounds like you were defrauded in a sense.” — Brendan [20:12]

Legal Follow-up:

• Case filed in the Southern District of New York, potentially precedent-setting for crypto-law intersection. [21:07]

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3. Transparency, DAOs, and Lessons in Decentralization

• DAO Misrepresentation: Humayun claims Ocean Foundation falsely portrayed control as a DAO but actually kept private custody.

• Key Security Lapse: Fetch trusted Ocean’s process, later realizing the lack of genuine decentralized governance.

  • “Turns out that it wasn’t actually…there was no DAO-like behavior, unfortunately…The representations that were made were incorrect.” — Humayun Sheikh [17:48]

• Ideal Resolution:

  • Logical outcome would be compensation/remediation for the affected community—tokens returned/distributed as promised.
  • Highlighted the irony of Ocean’s departing with alliance tokens under the banner of “more decentralization.” [24:12–26:44]

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4. Moving Forward: Focus on Technology & Agentic AI

Adoption & Product Traction [28:02–31:29]

• ASI1 Platform:

  • Users can create and personalize AI agents without coding, connect calendars, schedule meetings, and much more.
  • Over 2.7 million agents active; significant daily user growth (10-15k new users daily).
  • “...with ASI1, you go in and click a few buttons...and you can actually have your own agent right out of the box.” — Humayun Sheikh [28:26]

• Stack Vision:

  • Top Layer: Agentic, autonomous AI applications

  • Middle Layer: Expert models, orchestrated by large language models

  • Bottom Layer: Massive, efficient decentralized compute (helped by partners like Kudos)

  • Drawing parallel analogies to the web/p>

  • “In AI first, your application layer is going to be agentic…agents are more cognitively aware, they're autonomous, can be autonomous, they can do things, they can have intelligence...” [34:04]

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5. Competing with Big Tech & Industry Future

• Competing with Giants:
  • Alliance built to aggregate resources and stay nimble, focusing on useful applications rather than brute-force capital arms races.
  • “To compete…to actually create solutions which are at least comparative to these big entities…we’ve actually done a pretty decent job of building this whole stack.” [40:37]
• Current Ecosystem:
  • Unlike Meta, X.ai, or even OpenAI, decentralized approaches allow rapid customization and personalization, with real-world utility spread beyond crypto-centric audiences.

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6. Market Parallels, Energy, and Sustainability

Dot-Com Comparison & Boom/Bust Cycles

• Current AI build-out likened to the broadband/telco boom—potential for over-investment in compute, but it also sets up the next wave of killer applications.
• “Everybody was going out, spending money…all they were doing were building infrastructure. And then everybody realized once the infrastructure is done, you need applications…that’s kind of where we are in this phase…” [44:05]

Energy Considerations

• AI center construction is increasingly efficient (new data centers, containerized nuclear discussed).
• AI will ultimately optimize its own energy use.
  • “I’m more optimistic about it because…I feel this is obviously a growth pattern which is happening.” — Humayun Sheikh [47:53]
  • “We’re going to use actually AI to improve the efficiency of these centers which we're building.” [48:10]

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7. Market Dynamics & Investment Perspective

Michael Burry’s Short, Valuations, and Bubble Talk:

• Humayun’s take: Shorting is rational at these insane valuations—but he’s more pro-Palantir/Nvidia in the longer run.
• Expresses concern over artificially inflated circular economies (advance sales revenue, tokens).
  • “It’s like a runaway train…it’s kind of creating its own steam…that is slightly dangerous.” [51:41]

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8. What’s Next for Fetch.ai & the Alliance?

Six- to Twelve-Month Outlook [54:12–58:50]

• Key Deliverables:
  • Real-world adoption of ASI1 platform and agentic web—scaling beyond crypto.
  • Upcoming launch of AI-centric, sharded blockchain for scaling model and compute-specific workloads.
  • More “Earn and Burn” mechanisms and compute platforms coming online.
  • “The whole stack is really, really working well and I’m really excited about it.” — Humayun Sheikh [58:29]

Public Challenge:

• “I challenge anybody and everybody to come and have a look at the technology and say anybody has a better technology…” — Humayun Sheikh [58:50]
• “We’re not just a crypto project. We are outside of crypto—that scale is much bigger.” [58:50]

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Notable Quotes

• “We did [the alliance] because we felt we need to build a tech stack…to make it so coherent so that everybody can deploy a solution and don’t have to worry about too many tokens…” — Humayun Sheikh [02:55]
• “...that’s called a rug pull. So that’s what I’m saying. You guys tried to do a rug pull.” — Humayun Sheikh [14:17]
• “I’m not fighting for myself. I’m fighting for the project and the community.” — Humayun Sheikh [20:18]
• “Fate loves irony.” — Brendan [24:12]
• “We have like 2.7, 2.8 million agents…majority of them have a purpose.” — Humayun Sheikh [29:16]
• “AI needs multiple components, just like web did…we need all of them effectively. It’s crazy.” — Humayun Sheikh [39:04]
• “We’re not giving up. This is a small hiccup. We’re going to recover from it. We’re going to be back to where we should be.” — Humayun Sheikh [58:50]

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Key Timestamps

• 01:59–07:49: Alliance structure and rationale, initial vision, Ocean’s departure
• 13:14–16:34: Token conversion controversy, legal actions
• 17:14–21:07: Decentralized governance issues, misrepresentation, legal context
• 28:02–31:29: Agentic AI in action, platform adoption, user growth
• 33:36–40:37: Building the agentic web, orchestration of expert models, infrastructure needs
• 47:53–51:41: AI, energy, and the path to sustainability
• 54:12–58:50: Roadmap, new platform features, next-gen blockchain, future vision

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In short:
This episode provided a candid look at the turbulence within the ASI Alliance, the nuts and bolts of decentralized AI progress, and Fetch.ai’s determination to maintain momentum despite setbacks. It’s a crucial listen for anyone navigating the AI/blockchain intersection—whether for its lessons in governance, technology, or idealism.

Transcript

[Host (Gemini Crypto 101 Intro)]

Welcome to the Crypto 101 podcast presented by Gemini, your bridge to the future of money.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

All right, everybody, welcome back to another episode, heavy hitting episode of the Crypto 101 podcast. High caliber, action packed. Brendan, how the heck are you feeling today? I'm excited, man.

[Bryce (Co-host)]

Hey, I'm doing pretty good too. I mean, at the time we're recording this, we're getting some nice price action, we're getting some good news. There's a lot going on and man, we got a familiar guest, a familiar face over here, one who we always appreciate having on, so can't get much better. Bryce.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Yep, I agree, man. This is a true honor and pleasure. Humayun Shake, founder of Fetch AI we are welcoming you back to the show. Had you on a few times in the past, but got some big updates and some big conversations to have today. So welcome to the show and how are you?

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Always a pleasure as, as you know, Bryce. Brendan, it's always fun to have a chat with you guys. I think we have a lot to discuss, as we all know, so I'm really looking forward to it so that you guys can go ahead and ask whatever you like and let's have a. Let's, let's get it moving.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, there's obviously, for longtime listeners know that we've, you know, we've been big fans of what you guys have been. Fetch AI and then the artificial super intelligence asi, you know, operation that you guys have been running in partnership with several other, you know, AI meets crypto projects. But it seems like there's been a little bit of a ker fluffle. It seems like things have potentially broken down. I don't know, tell us the high level, what's going on. I don't want to read the tea leaves or get hooked on these random Twitter threads because everybody's got an opinion. So let's hear from the horse's mouth.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Sure. We, as, as you know, we, we spoke about this. We did a alliance and we did a token merger with three founding members, which was Fetch AI, Singularity and Ocean. And then we added another alliance member, which is kudos. So, and we, we were moving along and I think in June and I think let's just dig a little bit into the background. So why did we do it? We did it because we felt we need to build a tech stack. The tech stack includes the agentic AI, which is what Fetch brought into the mix. We had Singularity, who was working on more research stuff. So that. How do you make these Models better, How do you bring more AI algorithmic models and how do you then bring them to the market using the Agentix stuff. So they were working on that. They were also working on the technology for the next iteration of let's say a blockchain, which is AI specific. So that's what they were working on. We had Ocean who, who were working on the data side data tools which we felt were kind of really very nicely fitting into the stack. And then we had Kudos who brought in the compute, so decentralized compute platform where you can actually plug in compute and then you can use it and distribute it. So that was the component that was the tech stack. And we felt very comfortable that our tech stack was and actually still is pretty much at the cutting edge. It's probably one of the deepest tech stack that you'll find in our crypto space. And the reason why we did it was to make it so coherent so that everybody can deploy a solution and don't have to worry about too many tokens, don't worry, have to worry about integrating too many technologies you deploy and it works. So that was the premise. That's what we were doing and that's how it started. And one year down the line we had Ocean announced. Well, I mean announced and I'll, I'll give you the detail of the announcement first and then we can dig into what, what actually happened. So they announced that they want to leave the alliance, which. Okay. I mean it's an alliance, that's great. You know, we still have technologies together and you know, there's some components of their technology we use, we don't need to use it, but nobody is going to stop. You know, you build technology for people to use. I mean there is some data technology which is not particularly that innovative, but we were using part of it and they decided to leave the alliance, which is fine, not a problem. Alliances are not to force people to doing anything. They, they, they wanted to take their own route, which is absolutely fine. But let's just rewind a little bit. In June there was, when we did the alliance, there was these, this, this whole pool of community reward tokens which Ocean had indicated that that are Ocean committed to providing this community reward tokens which they, they previously had publicized everywhere. I mean they've written papers about it, that this is how these tokens are going to get distributed. That we had a vision paper which actually Trent, and Trent was a very critical part of announcing that we are going to have these tokens which are going to be community Reward tokens. We're going to reward the community for building solutions. We want to build the ecosystem. We all have different methods and we, we Fetch foundation has its own method, but this was what was indicated and this is one of the reasons why we actually did the alliance with them was because they had this pool. They just minted 50% of their supply a year or so ago for community rewards. And we wanted to bring that in because they were struggling to build community projects because there wasn't really much action going on. And the reason was that, yes, I mean, you can't just have data doing nothing, right? I mean, there's no application unless you actually have applications. Applications so fitted in the stack. Well, and we wanted to build these solutions and for that they would have rewarded. We were going to use the community reward tokens to reward the projects. And you can see. And we can talk about the technology and you can see what all the products that are coming out of Fetch and Singularity at the moment. And Kudos itself as well. So those tokens were meant for community reward tokens. What transpired is that on 25th of June or something, these guys just withdrew a huge chunk out of those tokens, right? So there was like 289 million FET, which by the way was a conversion from Ocean. They were meant for conversion into FET for FET and ASI Alliance, Community and Ocean decided. And this is not how it was meant to be because Ocean said, we're going to enable people to build these projects which are going to use Ocean technology. We're going to reward these people with those tokens. And suddenly all these tokens get converted into fet. And then suddenly we felt there was some hack and we went and investigated, but turns out that this is Ocean Foundation. Now they call it not foundation, but now they call it Ocean Dao, Ocean Expedition or whatever they want to call it. All the representation.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Ocean Gate.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Ocean.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

It's Ocean Gate. Like Watergate or Deflategate.

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[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

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[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Yeah. Yeah. So they, they just did that and then, then we went and we did some legal stuff. Held back, but then they announced that they're leaving, which as I said, no problem. But you know, you can't just convert all the tokens, convert it into FET and then dump it on the community. That's not right. It's meant for community tokens. You've declared this going to be done over 10 years. I mean this is like 10 years plus 10 years was a half life. So we're looking at tokens which were meant to be distributed or 10, 20 years for people building the projects. We haven't seen a project from them and suddenly all the tokens disappear and then they started selling them. So we, I mean again, I can't talk too much about the legal stuff because it's still ongoing. But I mean we took some legal actions. They took some legal actions. There was still a pool of hundred million fet which is still, which we didn't top up the bridge with. And that still sits there. And, and what I am, and the alliance is arguing is, hey, I mean these, this should not be given for people to be converted because you've already left the alliance and you've dumped the tokens on the people here. So, so that's kind of what the sequence of events transpires to be. Of course they now claim Ocean Dao is some other entity, which is what you would read in their blog post. It, it might be another entity, but who cares? I mean, you made representations under foundation saying all these tokens belong to the community. I mean it's like me saying, well, here's, you know, 300 million tokens FET tokens. I'm going to give it to the community. But one day I wake up and I take all those 300 million tokens and I go and sell them for my purposes, my own purposes. Well, we call it rug pull, right? And the founders do it. It's called a rug pull. So that's what I'm saying. And that you guys tried to do a rug pull. Now if you did it on Ocean, that's 51% of your supply. You would have, you would have really killed everybody. It's like because we are fetch and we have alliance and we have singularity. Part of it. Kudos. Part of it, we're still going. Of course. It's going to damage the token price. I mean, did damage the token price. All the negativity. Then they started creating all the false news that they started spreading. Well, what they're doing is like, oh, well look, look at, look at, oh, you did X, Y and Z wrong. But, but hang on a minute. We did X, Y and Z wrong. Nothing happened. But you dumped the token in the market and now you're saying, let's, let's not look at that. Let's look at some hypothetical problem which we have just come up with. So that's what's going on right now. So I think I'll pause here for any questions. Man.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm sorry to, to you and to the community and to everybody involved. It just sounds like a, some, something not fun to be involved with. And it, it's really a bummer. It takes you away from, you know, doing what you're really passionate about, which is, you know, artificial intelligence and making these applications that are going to make the world a better place and easier to interface with and so on and so forth. But it's, it's part of the, you know, it's, it's. Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, it's, it's part of reality now.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

It's not funny because, I mean, of course over the last month or so I've taken personal time to actually try and fix this problem. Of course other members of the alliance are also trying to do that. But the issue is that because I've taken this stance where I'm saying, no, I'm not letting this go because that's not right for the community, then obviously you get personal attacks on you. So that's kind of what has been happening and trying to come through that on the other side. But you know how crypto is where everybody can have an opinion, right? Everybody totally better than anybody else.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Yeah. I guess the first question that pops into my mind just naturally from hearing this is how did they have the ability to make that transaction? How did they have the private keys to these funds that should have been locked up? Because it seems like there was an element of, you know, obviously trust that if it wasn't ocean, it could have been fetch or if it wasn't fetch, it could have been kudos or AGX who could have done this? But you know, all of crypto is about like not trusting but verifying and having these multi sigs and having layers of security and stuff. Like what was the setup that allowed them to.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

That takes money. That's the Whole point of misrepresentation. The whole point of misrepresentation is you say, here is a Ocean Dao, right? So Fetch doesn't have all the keys, right? It doesn't have the keys. We don't have the community tokens. We never had the community tokens. In the same way we put everything over the last five years, we put it into community, we let the foundation distribute it to the community. So we have foundation tokens, we call them foundation tokens, which is if foundation did something, then we are responsible for that. So somebody can come and question us. We have been questioned many times now, but most of our community reward tokens have already been distributed and they were sitting in a lot of the other pools where we have a whole mechanism of the chain. So you can actually submit your proposal with the validators. Validators can approve it. Then we get distributed. So there's a whole reward pool mechanism which works on voting. Ocean, on the other hand, represented that there is an Ocean Dao, and this Ocean Dao is not in their control. Right. So we asked them and they gave us some keys and said, these are the community members. And we did keep asking them, guys, so who are these community members? I mean, what is the mechanism of doing this? Oh, it's like, you know, it's written here, it's written there, we read it. And sometimes you kind of have to move on with trust in the sense that the representation, it's a dao, It's. It's controlled as a dao, then, okay, we may move on from that. But turns out that it wasn't actually. I mean, there was no Dao like behavior, unfortunately. And, and the whole point was that the conversion of these tokens was meant to be done over time. And that's why some of the tokens were held back, so that we didn't top everything up. But that's, that's the whole point of the, the whole problem is that the representations that were made were incorrect.

[Bryce (Co-host)]

Wow.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

And so, yeah, not to. Not again. I just wanted this.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

I would, I would, I would go. As far as, you know, I am not a legal person, but I would say if you made a misrepresentation about that many tokens, about that much money, you know, I would be bordering into fraud.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Yeah, totally. I mean, that's exactly what I was going to say. It sounds like you were defrauded in a sense. But I'm not illegal.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

It's not my, my tokens. I, I'm not, I'm not fighting for myself. I'm Fighting for the project and the community. These tokens belong to the alliance community. They didn't belong to FETCH founders. You know, the two people who, who set it up and running it. It wasn't for them to just decide to take it and go right and cash them and put the monies in their pockets or. I don't know what they did with them, but I can't prove anything. Either way.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

It's going to be a landmark case. I mean, because I, I believe and correct me if I'm wrong and I, I know I don't want to get too much into like stuff that you're not allowed to talk about or whatever, but I think it was a case that was filed in the Southern district of New York and there's probably never been a similar case like this in all of financial or whatever law. I mean, maybe they're gonna. Again, is there like, is this going to be truly a landmark case?

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

It. Well, it will go through that. It's process, of course, it's a long process. But I mean I, I guess other, other cases have happened, but nothing like this. This is slightly different in the sense that it's not. Well, I mean it's not, it's not, it is still misrepresentation, but it's done as a class action. So that's slightly different to what has happened in the past. So I, as, as much as I'm funding it, I am not in control of it because there's a lot of people who lost a lot of money here. And I mean you have to be careful. It's not a security, it's a utility token. So we have to be, we have to be aware of those things. And again, I don't want to go too much into what's going to happen legally, but. Because I can't. But you could see that if, if somebody, and they have the audacity to stand there and start blaming me for things or alliance for things and saying alliance did something wrong. Absolutely not. I mean we, we actually, we were, we were getting along quite well in the sense. Not with Ocean perhaps, but with the rest of it. We were building the stack and you've seen the progress which is coming through and suddenly you and we are very comfortable that very soon. I mean, and as I will explain to you, you know, our applications are getting more and more traction. There's more and more people signing up and we're looking at that Earn and Burn kicking in very soon and it's already kicking in. All of that was going well and Then they decided. I have no idea. I mean, they. For some. Some kind of spiked the alliance. I don't know, but they just took it, or it's just pure. They wanted the money and they took it. Yeah, they got the liquidity and they just took it. I mean, it's not their tokens to take.

[Bryce (Co-host)]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's. It's interesting. And like Bryce said, it's going to be landmark and it's complicated. And, you know, a lot more questions will. Will continue to be answered, I think, as time goes on. But the final question on this topic. What would your perfect resolution look like? Would it be something where holders get compensated for what's happened, or is it something else?

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Well, let's just be logical here, right? I don't want to be logical. Logical thing is, Ocean wanted to leave the Alliance. Not a big deal. Yeah, right, Fine. Leave the alliance. You're not happy with. Enough decentralization. Having said that, we're the ones who do the voting. They're the ones who do kind of their own decisions and don't even ask the community. But, hey, you want to be more decentralized. So their ethos is we have to be very much more decentralized. We don't want to vote. We don't want the DAO to be run properly. We can make our own decisions, you know, unilateral decisions, but that's called decentralization. Okay, fine.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Fate loves irony.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Yeah. It's like you go and do all those decisions, right? But here's the point. You don't want to be part of the ASI community. You don't want to be part of the ASI Alliance. ASI Alliance's tokens is fet. Why did you convert your own Ocean token into FET token if you were planning to leave? Because it comes out that they were planning to leave. Because if you read the blog post, kind of, they. They kind of refer to the facts that they were not happy and they were going to leave. Well, if you were planning to leave and if you was that unhappy with the alliance, why did you then convert all your Ocean tokens into FET tokens? Which didn't, by the way, belong to them. It belonged to their community. It belonged to the people who were going to build did. Do you have any voting we can see? No. Do you have any evidence that the community actually wanted to do that? No. Where are these tokens? Well, apparently now these tokens belong to a Cayman company, of which Bruce Pond is the only director, called Ocean's Expedition. And now they have openly said that, and they're saying, oh, it's owned by a trust. Well, okay, who's the beneficiary of the trust? Is it the community? Is it the people? But, but, but, but again, it's, it's just, I mean, this is typical. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't want to say it, but it's, it's a typical behavior of people who want to take or defraud other people. Because if you look at the token's flow, they converted it, they sent it to 30 or 40 other wallets. From each wallet, they went into mixers and into options and into exchanges and into. So, I mean, it's. And we did quite a lot of work trying to track it, and we have all the evidence to track it that this is going here, there and everywhere. I mean, you're going to Binance, you're going to gsr, you're going to others, you're taking out options, you're selling them. I mean, they committed. They, they actually admitted that they sold like $70 million worth of FET already. I mean, I'm sure after that admission they've done even more. But the point is, they're not your tokens. They are your community's tokens. But then they're saying Ocean Dell is owned by Ocean Expedition. And so there's no communities that they decided to take the tokens.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

A classic case of just, they thought they took what was theirs, but it clearly wasn't theirs. I guess, like, it's just, again, if.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

It was theirs, then prove it. I mean, you wrote papers after papers after papers telling the community that these are community reward tokens and they will be distributed to the community over 20 years or 10 years or whatever. I mean, we have plenty of materials, which they say that. So how come you just suddenly took it? And this is when you didn't want to be part of the alliance, and yet you converted it into the alliance token. Wow.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Well, I'm going to be following along with the case very, very closely. And, you know, we'll have you back on for some checkpoints over the years as this kind of.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

I'm always here.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Yeah. But let's talk about some of the good stuff. Let's talk about the traction of the apps. Let's talk about just the future of ASI and all the good work that you and Dr. Ben Gertzel over at Agix and the folks at Kudos, you know, reset. Let's reset. Everybody take a big deep breath. I know that Was a lot. Our listeners are probably like, I don't know if this is exactly what I expected to listen to today, because it's very unlike most of our podcasts. So gonna take a quick reset. We just want to take a look at the bright future that you're still building. Okay, so. So walk us through some of that.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Yeah, that's. That's my favorite topic. Right. I'm also fed up of this rubbish. So.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Yeah, so here's.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

You know, let's start from the top. Right? So we. We said we're going to build this agentic framework. We did, and we are. And we're building it and we're improving it. So if any of you guys have not tried it, I would highly recommend you guys try it. And you guys try ASI 1AI and go and turn on, you know, different things and try them and see how we have actually built the whole infrastructure where you can actually communicate with agents directly. You can actually speak to them. You can have your own agent within a minute just by signing up to ASI1, which you can train, which you can personalize. You can attach your calendar, it can do bookings for you with other people. I mean, we can, all three of us can find, you know, time. We can ask our agents to do it. They can go and do it. They can send emails, they can do all of that. You know, it might sound simple, but it's not that simple. And the reason. Let me explain. Have you guys built any agents yet? I mean, if you have, then are you a coder? Because coders might have done, but what an individual person who doesn't know how to code too much. And how long does it take to build your agent? I mean, with ASI1, you go in and you click a few buttons, three buttons, and you can actually have your own agent right out of the box. Well, you can ask this agent to do things for you. Other people can ask questions for you. I released my. One of my agents for people to chat with and communicate with. It had its own personality. It had its own information and knowledge base, and you could ask them. So all of that is now kind of going in and people are signing up. We're getting, you know, 10, 15,000 users coming in every day. In terms of actually using ASI1, which is. Which is. Which does everything which other LLMs do, but more in terms of the agentic stuff. So you can actually ask for agents, you can actually query them. So the whole infrastructure where agents become discoverable, it doesn't matter where you build them, but they become discoverable to a large language model is the infrastructure which we have now, it's not in the future. It's not, we're not talking about it. It's actually deployed, it's live. People can actually sign up for it. We have like 2.7, 2.8 million agents, you know, give or take. Not all of them are doing exactly what they should be doing. Some of them are kind of built just for testing, but majority of them have a purpose. And you can actually go and ask your LLM to find you an agent which does something and you'll find one and you can ask it to do something and it will do it. You can actually communicate to it. But, but to get to that point and you will see that when you use the ASI1 platform there is a whole planning, reinforcement, learning, neurosymbolic learning, neurosymbolic modeling in terms of getting you deterministic outcomes, combine it with the generative AI outcomes and then doing all sorts of integrations with the legacy systems. It's a huge engineering and research task which we have now kind of in a place where we actually have launched the product.

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[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

So that's, that's the top layer. I think you have some question, Brandon? Yeah, well, yeah, I was just.

[Bryce (Co-host)]

I mean it seems like AI is trying to go in all these different ways, right. There's a bunch of different people have a bunch of different opinions about like how we can use AI and what should be focused and what's of the highest priority. And I think the cool thing about the ASI or you know, the Artificial Super Intelligence alliance is that you all get to work on a couple of these different areas. But from your point of view, what areas are you the most interested in? And I guess what areas of artificial intelligence do you think should take priority over kind of the rest, if any?

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Yeah. So I mean, pinpointing one or two is probably quite difficult, but let me just give you my train of thought. So we had web. When web came, it was everything needed to be changed into Web First. What it meant was everybody needed a website. That's where we started, right. We were not mature enough. The technology wasn't mature enough. All it was was a catalog that was a website. From there we evolved into E commerce systems. From there we evolved into very, very complex infrastructures which were running on web. Right. So that's use that as your paradigm and then translate that into AI First. This, this was Web First. Now we have AI first. What is the difference? Let's, let's, I mean, I, I'm, from me, you'll always hear some more commercialization kind of methodology because I feel, you know, yes, we need to create this AGI, but ultimately it will evolve as more commercialization happens. It's not going to evolve in a vacuum. So I'm taking that commercial, I'll give, give you my commercialization slash evolution of commercialization approach first and then we can dig deeper into what is needed. So Web first always needed websites. Now we're going into AI. AI needs multiple components, just like web did. And the web paradigm relied on the application layer, which was a website, which then evolved into E commerce and kind of evolved into more complex technologies. In AI first, your application layer is going to be agentic. So you have an agent, you have multiple agents. How and if I make the simple comparison with websites, what it is, is websites were static, they were informational agents are more cognitively aware, they're autonomous, can be autonomous, they can do things, they can have intelligence, you can make them do active actions. So all of those things which were missing in web, with AI comes this layer which can help you do that what do we need for that layer? If you go dig a little bit deeper, I mean, we are proponents of a combination of expert models. I don't feel we're going to have one huge big model just about doing everything. And I think that kind of is also starting to come through in other people's opinions is that we will have one expert model for let's say medical brains kind of analysis or something. And then you'll have one physics model focusing on quantum physics, for example. So these are all expert models which people are going to build and they're going to specialize. And then underneath that you have this one large language model which can actually understand the intent and call these expert models. So what's in the middle between those two is the infrastructure which enables you to bring those models when you need them, and that's the agentic web. Because if you think, I mean again, it could be very, very complex model or it could be very simple model, just dealing with an API is also an agent, or dealing with a complex model which does brain analytics or quantum physics analytics can also be represented by an agent. So when you build this infrastructure where this large model, who is context aware, who is which is able to translate your intent to calling the right models, orchestrating the outcomes of different models to deliver something that you're asking that infrastructure is what Fetch has, what AgentVerse is and how we interact with agents is. And that evolves into a more complex solution. And I'll explain how. So all those interactions and all those combinations of actions, these actions could be knowledge based, these actions could be legacy system based, these could be physical, these could be just virtual actions. They all actually form part of these reinforcement learning models. So you can actually start making these reinforcement learning models which understand much better your intent and what the actions are required. So that's combined with all this agentic stuff, combined with the reinforcement models, combined with the generative AI models that stack. Well, it needs to live on compute, right? So right underneath you have to have quite a lot of compute, which is why we're seeing Nvidia's valuations going crazy. Because all of this AI, first infrastructure, one has to be enabled, it has to live somewhere, and second, it will live and compute on a computer kind of infrastructure. So that's, that's the whole stack for you. So saying which one is more important? I think we need all of them effectively. It's crazy.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

It's crazy. Just. Sorry to interrupt. No, the, like you said, like the, the compute that Nvidia is providing, they Seem like they've got a stranglehold on the market. I think a 5 trillion dollar 5 trillion or something like that market cap again that fluctuates day to day by a trillion dollars or something. Something which is just insane to think about.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Like nothing.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Yeah, like if you look back a few years ago, I mean, I don't know, 10 years ago, I don't think there were any companies that were over $2 trillion. So the fact now that we have several and this kind of like is where, you know, I kind of have a question around. Like some of these big dogs like Meta, Google, Xai Open AI wants to go public now. Which, God. We could, we could talk about that. You could talk about that. How it started as a non profit.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

That's another, that's another upcoming for everybody to enjoy.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Another lawsuit between Sam Altman and Elon Musk that'll get broadcast over every airwave. But like how, you know, kind of to keep things, you know, relevant here, how do you, and the ASI and, and maybe even generally other, you know, crypto startups or AI startups, how do they compete with the big dogs when it seems like they've just got, you know, economies of scale and so much CapEx and just, they could just train these things at a quicker rate. Like how do you just think about competing in that arena?

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Well, I mean that was one of the reasons why we foresaw that problem. That's why we combined, that's why we built the alliance. Right. Because we needed to compete. And you're absolutely right, it's not easy. The way to these valuations are, I mean, crypto, Crypto actually it's very unfortunate. We're still not actually appreciating what is here right now, what we have here. Because really if you look at anything in comparison to normal companies, the valuations are insane. I mean you can see them already. But to compete, not to compete, but to actually create solutions which are at least comparative to these big entities, these massive valuation entities which have capital, they don't even know how much they have and what to do with it. We've actually done a pretty decent job of building this whole stack at the moment. If you. And I was saying to you there are, there are agentic systems which exist, but there's nothing here where you, you can say, oh yes, you know, there's such an agentic system. I went in and I created an agent and my friend can speak to my agent, right? You can't. There's not, there's nothing here. I Mean meta could have done it because meta is in, in the space of networking and it's in the space of social connections. They haven't got it. Xai doesn't. I mean it's very much. We want our model to sit where we sit and we'll make it better and better and you guys can come and talk to it. But, but luckily what we're saying is that's one model, that's one way of doing things. And where the opportunity comes is where you don't need that much capital and you just need more innovative thinking commercially and actually technologically is to build a parallel solution. Not even fully parallel because we still use large language model, but to create some utility. If people can use something very quickly, which is what OpenAI did really well. Right. People started using it. I mean others have failed to do that. I mean Google has probably got the most amount of possible utility that could come out, but they're kind of a little bit slow and they do things in a different way. But you're going to see that application layer mature very, very quickly. But infrastructure, it's like. And again we had the web, but before the web came the telco boom. Right. So in the telco boom without the infrastructure spend on connectivity on web, we would not have seen the web paradigm.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

And we would they over indexed on it. Like they, they invested way too much in, in broadband and all this kind of stuff as the, at the peak of the bubble and then all of that network connectivity was all stale, nobody was using it and then the market crashed.

[Host (Gemini Crypto 101 Intro)]

Right.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

But not to say that it wasn't useful. We are using it now. The streaming applications came along. So this is going to exactly pan out the same way, right?

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

We're creating overcapacity of everything and then suddenly the applications will come along. I mean I'm hoping this time we've learned from it and the applications will come along quicker so that we don't misrepresent the compute that is required. But it's very, very similar to what happened in broadband. Right. What happened with the telco infrastructure. Everybody was going out, spending money, companies were getting valued at crazy valuations and all they were doing were building the infrastructure. And then everybody kind of realized once the infrastructure is done, you need applications and if they don't exist then you have got nothing. Right. So that's kind of where we are in this phase on the AI phase as well. But, but slightly different, slight difference could be that we've learned from our mistakes and we're going to Build the applications quicker. Now it's not happening right now because we're still just generating videos and there is, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's, it's a huge demand. People take a lot of photos, people do a lot of tiktoking. There is an application. I don't, I have no judgment on if it's good or bad. But, but there is application. But that's only, that's only the beginning because ultimately every organization, every enterprise is going to have to convert this into a AI first model, which will be an agentic kind of model because without it you have to completely dispose of your legacy system and nobody's going to do that.

[Host (Gemini Crypto 101 Intro)]

Wow.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

It's going to be totally crazy.

[Bryce (Co-host)]

It is going to be totally crazy. And I don't, it's always a little bit frustrating to me when people say, oh, you know, this is just like the dot com bubble and I think it's really different from that in nature. And you look at a lot of artificial intelligence and AI and it's a lot of these companies and a lot of like the use cases, like there is a real use case and there's a lot of money that's being made from it already and it's only going to get better. Whereas with the dot com bubble it wasn't quite that.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

And I mean, you say that, you say that. I, I mean I. There is a slight divergence in what I'm thinking in the sense that you, you're right, there's a lot of utility and web also had a lot of utility. But then you start coming up with this, some weird, just no non solution solutions to problems which don't exist. And that's happening here too.

[Bryce (Co-host)]

Yeah, I know. I, I guess you're right. It's a good point.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

And I, I wonder like if like for instance, like when Netflix like was starting and they did all of their like you know, streaming stream, you know, they didn't start with streaming, they just started with DVDs but then there was all this capacity for the Internet and they were like, oh well, we could start to you know, engineer and figure out a way to like you know, stream ip, you know, over IP and all that kind of stuff. But they maybe wouldn't have thought about that if that extra capacity was never built in the first place. And so it's, it's just a boom and bust cycle. I guess it's like as, as a tale as old as time. But I am, I am curious about the energy capacity as well, or the component here, because, you know, I hear a lot of people talk like AI, like, you know, obviously we're scared of the AI overlords and Elon's robots. But I think a really real, actual fear is like, will this just drive up the cost of energy everywhere, which. And it's already soaring.

[Host (Gemini Crypto 101 Intro)]

I don't know.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

We're going to have to do nuclear. But everybody says nuclear is, you know, it's obvious, you know, there's dangers and stuff, and it's just tough to get that spun up. There's turbines that take years and years and years to build. And like, what's the actual physical constraints that you're looking at? And how do you kind of alleviate maybe some of the layman fears of like, more AI means more energy consumption, means less energy for me to heat my house or whatever?

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Sure. I, I'm more optimistic about it because I feel this is obviously a, a pattern, this is a growth pattern which is happening. If you look at the data centers that are being built in different parts of the world now, the big, you know, mega data centers, mega AI centers, they are a lot more efficient, they need a lot less power. They're being built with all of that in mind. I mean, there's multiple points you raise. Look at like all these AI centers that are going up. So the consumption is coming, is going to be becoming more and more efficient. We're not used to it. We're now deploying these solutions. And I was watching something on Bloomberg the other day, and they were showcasing how efficient these AI centers are going to be. So we're going to improve a lot of this efficiency. We remember from our old, the DeepMind days when one of the things we did there was AI actually improved the efficiency of the data centers of Google, so by 2025%. So we're going to use, use actually, actually use AI to improve the efficiency of these centers which we're building. So that's, that's going to happen as just a natural process. You have got nuclear power, which is going to become more and more available. There is nanonuclear plants coming. There's containerized nuclear plants coming, which could be put in kind of remote places where the risk of radiation is low on any humans or, you know, or nations. So that's, that's also happening. We're not going to come to this consumption in two minutes. It's going to take some time. And again, I mean, this phase is going to ease off slightly in the sense that let's go past these Just photo and video generations and see what is after that. I don't think at the moment we see much more after that. We're quite, you know, we kind of stuck in that. Can I generate a TikTok video and can I get a million views? I mean there's, there's things like parrots talking to policemen going around, there's children acting, adults acting, looking like children going around. All of that is fun. But ultimately we're going to get bored of it, right? Because there's nothing real about it. And then we're going to start generating movies for, I mean again I think one part of me feels that movies are going to become self generated, you know, based around you and all of that will happen and then, you know, so that consumption is there, but it's not huge consumption. That consumption will be. We can cope with it without all these data centers. But these data, these AI centers are going to then be available just like we said, broadband and that's when streaming started. So we're going to start seeing applications which are going to use it.

[Bryce (Co-host)]

Did you see the Michael Burry short on AI? Did you see any information about that? He came out and he's like, I want a short AI and I think his two go to's were Nvidia and Palantir. What do you think?

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Palantir founder was like all.

[Bryce (Co-host)]

He was pretty pissed off.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

He was, I remember they were like, he's like, I'm not getting defensive, I'm getting offensive. Like this guy, if he wants to short, you know, a company with the best, you know, the best AI and the best, you know, finances that he just can't understand, then go for it. But yeah, that's a great question. Brennan, what are your thoughts on that human?

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

My, my thoughts are that you're always going to have, I mean 5 trillion, if you're asking me personally I think is slightly insane. But okay, still 3 trillion could be possible, right if, if other companies are 2 trillion and you can see the, you know, so having a short on it, to me it doesn't seem that illogical. I mean short doesn't mean it has to go down to zero and it's not forever and it could mean that 5 trillion becomes 3 trillion or 4 trillion, that's still a short which pays off. So the point is not that and I actually don't fully agree with Michael Berry's kind of approach and I think I'd probably be more pro Palantir and Nvidia, but I do feel there is this cyclical False economy being generated. So you take, you take a product which actually is very crypto like to be fair. I mean if you want to do a crypto comparison. So you have this chip which is your utility token. You take that utility token and you say to somebody, hey, I'm going to give you this utility token and you put it on your, you then become a company which I made an investment in, but then you put an order for that utility token as well. So it's a very circular, it's a very circular kind of scheme whereby your sales actually you creating your sales and then you're reporting those sales and then you're issuing new shares which then you're using to create more sales. And these sales are in the future, they're not today, these cells are in the future. So you could actually run. It's like a runaway train effectively, which is just kind of, it's kind of creating its own Steam and just running away with it. And I think that's, to me that is slightly dangerous. And I think that is where I think probably various comments are coming from as well. That's why he's looking to show.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Wow, awesome. Look, you know, while we have you, I just want to, you know, kind of as a wrap up question, what do we have to look forward to with ASI and sort of over the course of the next, you know, six to 12 months. What's in the pipeline and what are some things that you're really excited about?

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

Well, I'm really excited about is creating a product which people actually use. And I think we are at the cusp of it, we are actually building it and we actually getting uptake, we are actually taking, we're getting signups from people, not just crypto people because our product is not crypto based alone. We are open. This is a normal product for anybody and everybody. Crypto is an underlying technology which helps with payments, which helps with decentralization in the sense that it's open. It's like saying we have the ICANN of the new agentic web. So we have that, we have the Google of this agentic web in the sense of we can do search and discovery of agentic systems, we can do search and discovery of AIs, we can actually connect them and we can actually monetize them. So I to me that over the next 12 months is going to be the most of exciting things. I mean there is research going on, of course there is research going on, but really the research makes any difference when you actually start seeing it do something and it generates something. I mean, we, we, you know, we, we talked about in the past, we talked about neurosymbolic AI combining that with generative AI and trying to make it deterministic responses, which agents are doing. We've now kind of implemented all of that. It's actually in working, it's actually delivering an outcome. And if you haven't used it, I would highly recommend that you use the ASI1 platform. Try and work out the personalization part, see how many responses you actually prefer as compared to anything else. And you can actually find agents and you can actually speak to agents and you can do some things which you can't do anywhere else. I mean, you know, you can go and ask it to generate five different. I mean, our favorite thing is to generate images, right? So five different images using five different models which are represented by five different agents, right? It'll generate you five different images from different models. I mean, it's as simple as writing a prompt and you speaking to agents. So that's very exciting. Some of the other technologies, exciting technologies which are coming out of the alliance itself, this was more fetch, but it's ASI chain which has got a huge research and technology which is a lot faster than the chains which is built for AI. It's actually built for AI. It has a sharding mechanism where you can deploy different models, you can deploy different activities, you can actually create a compute shard, you can compute create an, you know, a, a expert model shards. You can actually take that and actually make it more a usable blockchain which has a purpose in AI. And I think AI is going to be one of the most prolific technologies which actually requires blockchain at some point. That's quite, that's quite saying something, right? Where everybody's going with these centralized huge capital spends in one entity. I see that these shards can actually enable us and this new way of thinking. I mean, the chain is not ready yet, but it will be. Next year we'll release Testnet and you'll be able to see how fast it is, be able to see what it can do for you. To combine that with the Agentix system that we got, are we getting all this uptake on the compute that we have, the compute platform, all of that combined is. I'm really excited about it because that's what we wanted to build and we actually have it within a year. Right. We put it all together, it uses all these things and the chain is coming out. The gentic system's already out. The computer is Getting deployed. We have millions of hours of compute being used on the platform. So I'm actually quite excited, you know, cutting out all that noise that happened. You know, the whole stack is really, really working well and I'm really excited about it.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

I love it. Well, look, we greatly appreciate your time joining us, getting our community up to speed on what's going on and obviously we wish you all the best and the community all the best and we hope to have you back on again here with more exciting developments. Whatever works for you.

[Humayun Sheikh (Founder of Fetch AI)]

We're not giving up. This is a small hiccup. We're going to recover from it. We're going to be back to where we should be. And you know, I challenge anybody and everybody to come and have a look at the technology and say anybody has a better technology. I mean, we have it and we have been creating the utility and as, as we get into this phase of adoption, the, the whole game will change because our adoption is not crypto alone. Our adoption is worldwide for anybody. So we're not, we're not just a crypto project. We are outside of crypto project. So the scale is much bigger.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

I love it. Well, Humay and Shake, founder of Fetch AI, thank you so much and everybody at home listening. We hope you enjoyed and come back same time, same place, same next week. We'll have some more great guests for you. Take care.

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[Brendan (Co-host)]

I just built my whole site in under an hour.

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[Host (Gemini Crypto 101 Intro)]

Whoa.

[Ad Voice (WIX Ads)]

It's giving.

[Brendan (Co-host)]

Our sales are through the roof.

[Ad Voice (WIX Ads)]

So whether you need help expressing yourself or just need something to make your life easier, WIX has you covered. Try it [e-mail]. hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure, you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got not at all. So farewell oatmeal. So long, you strange soggy.

[Ad Voice (Grainger Ads)]

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[Ad Voice (Indeed Ads)]

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