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CRYPTO 101
Ep. 695 CoinShares CEO on Institutions, ETFs, Treasury Companies, and Bitcoin’s Long Game
00:25:45
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host (Gemini Intro)
Welcome to the Crypto 101 podcast presented by Gemini, your bridge to the future of money.
- [00:14]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
All right, everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Crypto 101 podcast. I am flying solo today without my compadre, Mr. Brendan, who is dealing with some reconstruction at his place of work. So we are, we are very lucky to be having the CEO and co founder of Coinshares, Jean Marie Magnetti, joining us today. Sir, welcome to the show and how are you doing?
- [00:41]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
Thank you for having me, Bryce. And Sorry. Brendan can be with us today.
- [00:45]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
I'm sorry too, because this is a good, this is going to be a great one. And he, he loves talking all things institutional involvement in crypto, you know, structured products and all sorts of things like that. Leverage, of course, but we're going to just dial it back real quick and just get our audience acquainted with who you are and really what was the impetus or the catalyst to starting Coinshares.
- [01:11]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
So, as you said, my name is Jean Marie Monizi. I'm the CEO and co founder of Coinshares. Coinshares is Europe's largest digital asset manager with a listing in Sweden. And we are moving this listed in Q1 to the US on NASDAQ. How did we start Coinshare? You know, we were community traders, and the hedge fund we were running started its life in 1998 and finished its life in 2012, 2013. And we were at that point where the partners like each other, works very well together, and we're looking for what is the next big thing to do. We had a kind of a strong, deep value investing thematic in our DNA as commodity investors. And, you know, we stumbled upon Bitcoin almost by mistake, as everybody does. You know, there is a famous saying, saying, everybody discovered Bitcoin at the price they deserve. We discover it quite early, to some degree, maybe not early enough, some will say. And, you know, it was the start of the, you know, the journey. We follow Alice in the rabbit hole and never kind of get out of it, you know, so we keep digging deeper and deeper and, like discovering new things every single time.
- [02:19]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
I love it. No, that's. That's a great story. And, you know, it makes me wonder or what? You know, it's. It's wonderful that everybody kind of goes down that same rabbit hole, although everybody kind of comes to the rabbit hole from a very different world. Like, I was in the media world, you were in the hedge fund world. You know, you've heard people from all over the. You know, our producer was at IBM and heard about crypto and so everybody kind of comes at it. But you know, bitcoin and crypto really are a great unifier because at the end of the day like, you know, money has the total addressable market of like 8 billion people. Everybody needs to use it.
- [02:55]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
But every journey is very unique. And you know, this journey in crypto is also defined by the people you meet and how open minded you are. You can go in bitcoin and just be in crypto, engineer and be a bitcoin maximalist and, and, and live under a rock and don't look at anything else but bitcoin. Or you can just like start to be a bit of a social butterfly and discover all the different innovation which are occurring, I would say sometime at the margins sometimes as a mainstream element of the underpinning technology. So beyond bitcoin you also get the technology elements attached to it and that's really what the genius act, kind of like reveal. People were always in institution telling you oh yes, stablecoins are great, interesting, but we don't like blockchain. And eventually they look at the genius. I say, well actually if this stablecoin story needs to work, we kind of need a blockchain somewhere. And, and you can see the Wall street rush to buy Ethereum ETF at that point was okay, so someone need to buy something because how do we express a view and investment view on that? So it was pretty cool to see that people finally get the penny drop moment and say, okay, for all these tokens to work they need to get some form of blockchain technology element. And so there is a very strong technology angle beyond the simple kind of investment aspect of things. So that's pretty cool.
- [04:09]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
Yeah. And it's not just like the private enterprise blockchains. I feel like in a sense that ship has kind of sailed or sunk, I should say. It's like a lot of these blockchain based assets are like the biddle fund from BlackRock that's on Ethereum and all these other public blockchains. And I saw JP Morgan chain or JP Morgan Coin now trades on base for other institutions and stuff. And so the public blockchains, it feels like is the winner.
- [04:39]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
It's not so much about sinking or burning, it's more a question of there were kind of necessary evil in the evolution journey. You know, if you were to think about when, you know, digital asset holding started back in 2016 probably or 2017, backed by DRW and UBS and some big names, you know, and they put a big name CEO as well from Wall street to, to lead the ship. You know it's very difficult for them to go talk to Goldman Sachs or any other big bank and like in the idea that yeah, you're going to trust this kind of open permissionless blockchain situation here it is. So it's almost kind of this journey stage by stage where it's almost like the failure of the private blockchain is what make it much more powerful in an open architecture but you have to go through the failure first. And so the kind of like the hoops of innovation were necessary and you saw it's a different idea. If you go back 20 years ago when Mark Berniol start marketing Salesforce he couldn't even raise a dollar because everybody was saying nobody would want to put the data in the cloud. And Salesforce is a success, it is today. So unfortunately people don't really see the capacity of innovation far enough. They always underestimate what innovation can do in the long term and overestimated the short term. So it's great to see this evolution. And you were talking about JP Morgan Coin and JP Morgan based effectively architecture but Bidle announced this morning they were running now on BNB chain as well. So it's kind of a complete transformation as well as the architecture has become cross operatable on different blockchain and even on the stablecoin world you saw last weekend while Swift network was closed, you get JP Morgan and DBS settling through two different chain and cross operation between chain as well. So stuff are definitely moving at an institutional level as well and that's quite exciting for coinshare.
- [06:32]
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- [07:08]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
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- [07:10]
Podcast Host (Gemini Intro)
This is not investment advice and trading. Crypto involves risk.
- [07:12]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
Check Gemini's website for more details on rates and fees.
- [07:14]
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- [11:27]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
Yes so let's dive into Coinshares. Exactly what are your products and server services that you guys are offering to institutional investors and maybe even retail investors?
- [11:39]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
Well, so the way we think about it is that we started the hedge fund in digital assets. The hedge fund business couldn't really scale and the idea for us at the beginning was like, okay, how do we sprinkle a little bit of financial freedom into everybody retirement account? And that was really the original promise. And so the best vehicle at the time back in 2015 to sprinkle this financial freedom was to get an ETF framework so we did exactly what grayscale was doing in the us. We did the same thing in Europe back in the day. And we kind of like run this journey on the ETF side until today. We're still doing it very actively, both in Europe and in the US at a much smaller size. But you know, we have a starting of a presence in the US and that's kind of a listed vehicle listed fund approach. Everybody with a brokerage account, whether they are institutional or retail, even if we don't distribute actively to retail, but the products are effectively available for retail, subject to the appropriateness test by the brokerage house. And so from there we kind of like had also a very strong capital market division within Coinshare. This capital market division enabled us to relaunch our private fund and hedge fund product which is being developed as we speak. And the question is like, where do we go from there? And like, you know, we have been always selling to the market what the market was able to consume. You know, there was no point selling in 2017. DeFi was not even a word. And so the question is like, how do we move forward through the tokenization channel value and propose product which are more and more sophisticated and more and more kind of embracing the values of decentralized technology.
- [13:15]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
Yeah, that's awesome. And it seems like there's more and more ETFs coming out. Obviously started with the Bitcoin ETFs, the Ethereum ETFs. We just in America got staking approved as, you know, kind of a non securities transaction. So we've got the staking component in the Solana ETF. And apparently now there's a whole host of over 100 altcoin ETFs slated for approval that have gone through the generic listing standards. And I just kind of want to get your take. Are all of these like a net positive for the ecosystem? You know, is it just kind of confusing investors like, what do you kind of make of just this flurry of altcoin ETFs?
- [13:55]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
There is a bit of formal issue because everybody wants to replicate the success of BlackRock and everybody looking at it and say, okay, BlackRock has done a massive win on Bitcoin, so how about we can capture the tail element of it. That's kind of a very short term view in itself. But you know, the market need to normalize, they need to overswing. The US has been deprived of crypto ETF for 10 years compared to Europe. So obviously the market going to overswing in the other direction. It is confusing for investors. It is confusing for advisors. You know, you talk to advisors today in the U.S. you know, they kind of start to get the Bitcoin narrative and why to sell it and why to add it to your portfolio. You move to Ethereum, they already look at you saying what are you talking about? You talk about hype as they look at you, say what? Hyper liquid, what is that? So, yeah, it's just like, you know, it's great. You're a very much strong retail audience with that. I think it's becoming more and more confusing and it's just, you know, it's a fantastic business for lawyers, it's a fantastic business for custodians, a fantastic business for plenty of people. Eventually it's becoming more and more of a question of like, what do people want to do? And you know, at some point you're better off just having a coinbase account if you really want to trade in every single token available in the market. And so that's kind of the flip side of everything. You know, when we look at Coinshare, you know, we're not really in the game or doing for the next 10 years what we've been doing for 10 years already. So, you know, we're looking at stuff and the evolution of things and trying to position ourselves where we really try to add value to the investment value chain and try to figure out, figure a way to bring products which are differentiative and differentiating. So we launched for instance in the US a product called DIME. And DIME is like listing 10 different coin in the basket. We have a clear risk budget of 10% per coin. But this coin has no chance to be listed in the US anytime soon as single coin under the current framework. So it brings a kind of a diversification. So, okay, I want a bit of optionality, a bit of call option element into a portfolio which is already long, a BlackRock ETF or any kind of Bitcoin ETF. And at that point you can get that as almost like an overlay which makes sense in your portfolio. So we're trying to think about stuff a little bit differently and try to bring a different narrative to just like, okay, here's a kind of a plethora of listing opportunity and pick and choose whatever you like with just a super exchange.
- [16:20]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
Yeah, no, it makes a ton of sense and I think it, it's the right approach. But of course it's not the only approach. There's a, there's a whole slew now of these digital asset treasury companies as well. And everybody's trying to replicate the same success that Michael Saylor kind of had. And I'm curious as well to kind of get your take. Do you think that this trend is sustainable, you know, or not? And, and kind of what's your rationale around these?
- [16:45]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
Seems like. Fair enough. I bumped into Michael in, in Miami at the Cantor conference a couple of days ago and people are confused with one thing. It's like the same way. There is only one Satoshi, there is only one Michael Seller. And so, you know, not everybody can replicate the aura and the kind of investment thesis that Michael put into this kind of microstrategy story. And so yes, again, the bankers and the lawyers replicated all at scale, Michael's proposal. But you know, it's very difficult to create something which is as successful. It was the very first treasury company. It has a first mover advantage moat. It was also run by people who understand capital market in, in depth and the kind of structuring and structuration of all these kind of products very, very, in a very, very advanced manner. And so realistically, not all treasury company are born equally. They are very, very different shape, different size. And actually I think the softness you see in the market right now on Bitcoin specifically is down to most of the market maker being long bitcoin and short treasury company because they were like arbitraging the spread and now that the spread are collapsed, they're just like unwinding the trade and basically selling bitcoin to be able to buy back the treasury company trade. And so you're very much in this situation where. The treasury company has been a formidable accelerator in terms of accumulation of capital into digital asset. They are creating captive audience as well in terms of captive putting of capital dedicated to digital asset. I think their live shelf is limited. You're going to probably see a lot of M and A activity, consolidation or takeover activity around them between themselves and between external raiders or private equity decide to say, okay, we're going to dismantle that and sell it in pieces. So you're probably going to see a lot of restructuring happening in the next 36 months around that. Especially if the premium are disappearing and some of them start to trade at significant discounts.
- [19:00]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
It's lawyer season and investment banker season.
- [19:06]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
Lawyer season is always on. It never stops. It's a season who never, never stop, never start.
- [19:12]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
Man, I got into the wrong business.
- [19:14]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
Me too.
- [19:15]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
Yeah.
- [19:16]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
When you talk to institution, they are still at the very, very first innings of the understanding of what is bitcoin so that's really what they're driving is okay, they want to understand that. And then the next question is, okay, what do we do next? How late are we in the journey? And effectively market allocation or capital allocation is following, I would say the cap table of bitcoin tokens. It's like all the total market cap of every single token. So you have effectively a weakening factor here where you're going to get less allocation on Solana that you have on Bitcoin. And know if you look just as a Treasury company, you can see that kind of tail event. You look at the etf, you can see the tail event as well. And so realistically, people start with Bitcoin and then they start to, depending which directions they go, they stop at Bitcoin because like, okay, our investment committee is barely understanding crypto, so we're not going to blow their brain away with more than Bitcoin or they have a serious appetite to say, okay, we're already late on Bitcoin, how do we start cash catching up? And that's when they start looking into effectively the technology play which is underpinning bitcoin and digital asset in general, which is the entire, I would say differentiation between all the L1 and what's happening on the L2 level. And so, so different institution after different stage of the journey. You know, realistically, the vast majority is at the stage one, which is like trying to understand Bitcoin and how to start, you know, getting their brain effectively not to explode when they start looking at the power of tokenization and what it can do for the.
- [20:51]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
It's got to be like a slow grind, a slow sort of adoption.
- [20:56]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
And it is, but like, it is, but like the reality is like crypto is this very, very first asset class which has an inverse pyramid of allocation. Normally, institution gets the first shot at everything and then retail can get a little bit of the crumbs. And in this specific case, it is exactly the opposite where the retail market got everything first and institutions are playing catch up. And so they need to play catch up even faster because normally there's the one dictating the timing. And now the market is moving ahead of them. So there is a little bit of a kind of. The institution are not used to be driven by the retail market and to have to react to the retail tempo. If you remember the COVID event with GameStop, the institution were like all saying, oh yeah, GameStop is just a fade, you're going to stop in five seconds. And then they get run over by Retail market, we say, okay, you want to play? We're going to play, play. Because the entire retail market was sitting at home doing nothing and say, okay, well we can have a bit of fun. And it's like sometimes I would say the old institution in mind is not ready to understand how powerful the retail market has become through this kind of effectively self directed trading capacity which is available to them through Robinhood or all this kind of platform which has democratizing massively the access to capital market.
- [22:13]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
Yeah, I want to kind of jump over or back to the conversation that we kind of had about the digital asset treasury companies and you talking about the weakness in the market, huge premium and they were long Bitcoin or the underlying. And now that trade, they're essentially, you know, covering their short, which implies that they might be buying back the digital asset treasury companies. What's, you know, do you think that this is the start, Are we at the start of a bear market because of this trade? Or do you think that, you know, we could have pockets of optimism and where might those pockets of optimism in the market be?
- [22:52]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
No, no, I think there is two different narrative. You know, effectively conflict, conflicting in some way. On one hand, the macro trend actually are very, very clear. And all the signal on the macro trend are kind of a line to explain that Bitcoin should be, should go higher. You know, you see the story around gold right now, it is kind of like exactly what is doing, exactly what it should be doing. And bitcoin should have the same journey. Now the problem is there is this kind of macro trend. And then within this trend you end up to have some micro level elements which are much more tactical than strategic. And so among all this kind of trend around macro, say okay, Bitcoin should be an allocation factor for the debasement trade. The digital gold narrative, all the narratives, the debt selling, the government spending, all this kind of narrative we know very, very well and which has been explained at length and which is only getting worse and worse. And so from that perspective, the bitcoin trend is winning. Now the bitcoin trade is also suffering from the kind of much more local factors. And the local factors on the journey right now, for instance, is like the unwinding of this treasury company trade. Like everybody who bought a convert on some microstrategy or something else at some point was also short the stock. So there is plenty of short in the market who were playing for the volatility associated with this digital asset treasury company. The short element of it when the premium collapsed, which is Basically the delta between the price of the, of the, of the treasury company and this nav is collapsing to zero. At that point, the people who are holding the effectively long bitcoin short treasury company position need to unwind the trade to capture the profit. And that's exactly what's happening right now. So you have like a market which I would say in a secular manner has some very, very good narrative playing in front of him and ahead of him at the same time is suffering from this kind of unwinding in the market and this kind of softening in the market at the same time. So you need not to confuse is the journey broken or is the narrative broken with kind of the technicality of the moment? And yeah, right now there's a technicality which has been driven by this unwinding of the trade, the absence of liquidity in the market, with the shutdown in the US all this stuff commingling, creating effectively the weakness we're seeing right now.
- [25:23]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
Wow, very well said. Yeah, it's like always have to zoom out, right? Like I think the rate cuts and you know, the lack of, or the winding down of the quantitative tightening and like all these things that are happening not just in the US but globally.
- [25:35]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
But look, you're absolutely right. But I guarantee you on Monday morning we're going to wake up in the US and Michael Seller going to announce he buy a ton of bitcoin during this weekning with weakening moment. And you know, if you zoom in again or zoom out again. Anybody who bought bitcoin for more than four years never lost money. So it's a question of like, are you, you know. Yes, if you try to day trade bitcoin you probably are in a bad position. Yes, if you are leveraging yourself way too much, you're probably in a bad position. But you know, the very principle of bitcoin is like bitcoin going to be all long term unleveraged by many, many people. You know.
- [26:12]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
So anything else, it's funny because like you know, everything else doesn't matter in the journey, but there's a whole other ecosystem. I think we even started the conversation was you can't just be a bitcoin maxi. You have to kind of extend you and understand there's all these other crypto ecosystems. So what do you think the future for altcoins is? And does coin shares dabble in altcoins at all?
- [26:37]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
Well, first of all, you can be a bitcoin maxi if you want to. There is nothing wrong with being a bitcoin Maxi there is plenty of gold bug as well. So it depends how much you want to have pleasure in life. But if you want to really blow your mind, you have to get into the, into the altcoin narrative and realize that there is all the stuff but Bitcoin to start to play back. But at the end of the day, the altcoin need to be measured at the light of the benchmark which need to be Bitcoin. So if you measure your altcoin performance against dollar. Yeah, okay, great. But you really need to measure it against your internal benchmark which is to be Bitcoin. And so, you know, Coinshare has been dabbling into altcoin. You know, we, we offer products in Altcoin. We were the first one to list Ethereum. We were the first one to list many, many products in Europe to, to bring that to the market. We bring staking to the market as well. As part of that narrative, we actually do staking a bit better in Europe than in the US where we don't have to pay a dividend of the staking reward kind of naturally embedded in the product. So people just get the corporate. There's a capital gain appreciation on that instead of an income interesting on that, which is a better tax structure for investors. But overall we're always looking at new things. We've been very, our research team was looking at hyperliquid, our research team been looking at many, many different tokens. So we are kind of like very interesting in the narrative. And we went from I would say a 20, 21 era where everybody was building much more by opposition to another blockchain. It was like the team wasn't satisfied with this blockchain so they spin out to create something else because it was like that better or that different. And now we're really in an era. People are really building products and stuff which are usable and have a utility or a real kind of utility utility. So it's become very, very interesting. And you know, the, the way you see all traditional assets now starting to be injected into defi is also very interesting and, and you can see how to organization slowly but surely gonna become the back and middle office of financial servicing.
- [28:35]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
I love it. Well, Jean Marie, I've got one final question for you. And it's a little bit more of a psychological personal journey kind of question. But you know, you've been in the hedge fund business, you know, obviously like you said, for, for, for long time, you know, run public companies and a lot of us traders are, you know, we have our stress and our emotion euphoria or depression tied to the price of the market with its altcoins or bitcoin. And a question I get a lot of the times is just how do you manage, how do you measure or make sure your your emotions are measured when you're just so steeped in crypto markets? How do you handle it personally?
- [29:18]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
Just don't have emotion.
- [29:20]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
You have to seriously medicate yourself. Is that what it is?
- [29:23]
Podcast Host (Gemini Intro)
No.
- [29:24]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
I didn't know. I would not recommend anything like that. Don't try and medicate it. It's definitely not a good idea. Now look we we think about it in a very simple way. It's not about being right or wrong, it's just being about to change your mind quick enough to as you make the right decision decision. So nobody cares there of the day if you're right or wrong. People just care about like did you manage to make money and your opinion is what matter. So just don't fall in love with your position. Just like stay honest around what you're doing and the rest will take care of himself.
- [29:53]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
I love it. Hey keep it simple self honesty. I love it. Jean Marie where can people kind of follow along on your journey? Are you big on X? Do you have a substack? And what websites can we put in.
- [30:03]
Jean Marie Monizi (CEO and Co-founder of Coinshares)
The show notes coinshares.com we publish a weekly newsletter. I write a monthly piece for Coinshare.com which is part of the newsletter and on X as well.
- [30:14]
Bryce (Crypto 101 Host)
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today. We hope to have you back on again after you have a smash hit on the US nasdaq. Everybody at home watching and listening. Thank you so much for joining. Come back same time, same place next week. We're going to have some more great guests for you. Thanks Jean Marie.
- [30:41]
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- [31:11]
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Ever see an idea so clearly in your head but struggle to find the time to get it all done? Wix helps you go from eh, I'll get to it to done. Build a full site just by describing your idea. Let an AI agent handle daily tasks, Plan your next marketing campaign or help out customers so you can grow your business the way you want without it taking over your life. Try it out@wix.com.
- [31:39]
ON3 College Football Sponsor Voice
College football never stops when college football news breaks, it breaks on ON three. From the transfer portal to the playoff race to coaching changes, the sport is moving every single day. That's why college football fans turn to ON3, a trusted authority with real reporters and real communities built around the teams you care about. Find all of your favorite teams and join the community. Get the full picture@on3.com that's on and the number3.com.
- [32:09]
Safeway/Albertsons Sponsor Voice
Save on holiday essentials at Safeway at Albertsons this week, get USDA Choice Beef Bone in Roast for $6.97 per pound with digital coupon and minimum purchase of $50 or more in a single transaction, excluding the price of the roast while supplies last. Limit one plus get broccoli, cauliflower, green beans or Brussels sprouts for 97 cents per pound with digital coupon. Limit six pounds and russet, red or yellow potatoes, yellow onions, yams or Sweet potatoes are 99 cents per pound member price. Visit safeway@albertsons.com for more deals.