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- [00:00]
Host 1
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- [03:27]
Host 2
All right everyone, welcome back to the Crypto 101 podcast. We hope all of you are having a fantastic morning or evening because no matter where you're coming in from, but you're certainly in the right place here today. Man, we hope everyone's doing well out there in the crypto community. There is a lot of turbulence. There's certainly a lot going on and despite all of this, guys, the market is continuing to move forward. Guys price action can remain pretty choppy and stuff, but let me tell you what we love Bringing in leaders from the space to hear what's going on, to give you all the inside scoop about what's going on behind the scenes, what kind of different areas of the industries are remaining active, how they're increasing, how they're changing so that you all can understand where you should be looking, about where the ball could be heading next. Now it's with my great pleasure to introduce all of you to Kash Donda. He is the CEO over at Jupiter and before all of that he was doing consulting for a number of different Fortune 500 companies. Cash, it's good to have you and welcome.
- [04:26]
Kash Donda
It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on.
- [04:28]
Host 2
You know, this is going to be exciting because you know, for the listeners out there, you're probably coming in here and saying, hey, didn't you just have Jupiter on? And we did, you know, earlier this year in January. So it was about five, six months ago now at the time of recording this. So we had Xiao Xiao Zhu, who is the president of the Jupiter Exchange on, had a great conversation with him about the decentralized exchange and the aggregator and how that works. But I think what people failed to understand and probably partially on our part, is that Jupiter does a lot more than just let you go through the aggregator and make transactions. Over the years, I mean you guys have been evolving into this defi super app. You have all these different products, you have all these different ways that people can interact with not just Solana but a bunch of different areas inside like Solana's ecosystem. And I've seen you guys are doing some other things that we'll talk about here today as well. But as you guys grow into what is very clearly becoming this defi super app, what is the long term vision of, of, of what Jupiter is going to be up to for the next few years?
- [05:40]
Kash Donda
Everything is the short answer to that. Our kind of core product philosophy here is we want people to just use Jupyter for anything that they would do in their on chain. And our view is that the entire financial world is going to be moving on chain over the coming years, which means you end up doing everything that you would do around money value trading, earning yield, et cetera, all through Jupyter itself. So today we have of course the trading side, we did about $1.2 trillion last year in trading volume. But we're also number one by TVL on Solana. So we have the most liquidity inside of the protocol. We also have one of the most used wallets in the space, Jupiter Mobile and our Jupyter Chrome extension and then a bunch of other products as well. We have 18 in total from a stablecoin to prediction markets, to developer APIs and much, much more. So yeah, the end view is that anything you want to do around assets, around value, around money, you're able to use Jupyter to do it.
- [06:32]
Host 2
Yeah, I mean Jupiter has become a staple of, of Solana. Right. People go there. We use you guys all the time. You know, we recommend you.
- [06:42]
Kash Donda
It's.
- [06:43]
Host 2
Can you guys, or sorry, can you just explain, I guess the difference between a decentralized exchange and what Jupiter is? Because there's a little bit of a difference between an aggregator and a dex. Right.
- [06:56]
Kash Donda
So Dexs actually hold on to the liquidity, the underlying trading tokens. Right. So let's say Solana and USDC for example, that liquidity lives in a protocol like Meteora. Right. That's a pure play Dex. On the trading side, one of Jupiter's products is in fact the Dex aggregator. And what we're able to do is look across all the different liquidity pools that might exist all across crypto. And you know, in Solana there are dozens and dozens of them and we kind of find the best possible price for you across those different pools. And oftentimes that means splitting up your order and giving, let's say 30% to meteora and 40% to radium and whatever, you know, the other percentages to other pieces. And so really our goal is not to necessarily house the liquidity, but rather to make sure that you as a trader get the best possible price and you don't have to hop around across 10 different sites in order to get that price that you want.
- [07:45]
Host 2
Yeah, and I think that's important, right, Because a lot of the times you might go to one place and you're like, you know, am I getting the best price? Am I going to get slippage? Am I going to run into some of these different issues? And the cool thing about an aggregator is it's exactly like you said, it's saying, hey, let's look at everything and let's get you the best price, the best liquidity, the best fill. And it can be just kind of a convenience thing for, for you. So, you know, you don't have to worry about a lot of that stuff now, you know, if you're more advanced, right. You might be more comfortable doing that. But I think for the average trader, that becomes a pretty big advantage. But you know, like we said at the top of the show, you guys are doing so much more than this. There's what, how many different products? Now I want to say you guys are over 15, is that right?
- [08:27]
Kash Donda
It depends on how you count it, but yeah, it's something like 18. One quick point to make on the Dex liquidity side that I think is important for people to know that is sometimes overlooked. Right now the biggest innovation that you're seeing in trading especially, it started on Solana and it started with Jupiter, are something called prop AMMs. Now these are liquidity pools that you can't actually access in any other way outside of Jupiter. There is no or other Dex aggregators. There are no. There's no front end for Goonfi or Bison Phi. Those are. That's liquidity. That's only available via the aggregator. So I would say, you know, listen, we love what traders go straight to Meteora or wherever else to trade. But ultimately, if you do want the best price, using an aggregator and using Jupyter specifically is how you're going to get it? Because we can surface liquidity that you cannot access anywhere else.
- [09:09]
Host 2
Yeah. And that's important, especially at a time like this. And I think that's why a lot of users like to go over there. Right. People are always asking us, oh, hey, where should we go? What matters? I think this conversation is going to help out a lot of you, but again, we don't want to focus too much on the decks. We just had an awesome podcast. If you guys have not listened to it already, go back again. It's with Xiao Xiao Zhu, the president of Jupiter. We did it back in January. A ton of great content over there in regards to that. And I think there's a huge reason. Right. You know, we like to use Jupyter. We talk about you guys full transparency over here. But what. What we've noticed, right, and why we're having you back on here is all of these different products that you guys have been working on, the latest one. And I guess we'll dive into this first, because I want to talk about Solana as a whole in the Solana ecosystem and what kind of activity and changes you guys have noticed here. And we're going to talk about that in a little bit. But one of the big headlines that caught my eye was your partnership with Bitwise. Bitwise, Friend of the show. We've had numerous people from their team on, so shout out to them. You know, we're big fans and supporters of them. But you have this partnership with Bitwise to curate a market for Jupiter Lend through Athena. Can you just talk to us a little bit more about what that means and maybe why this is happening?
- [10:35]
Kash Donda
Absolutely. This is a seminal partnership, I think, in kind of defi history, quite honestly. We have Jupiter Lend, which is our borrow lend market, our money market. It's about $2.2 billion in total market size today. And a big driver of that in the recent growth in particular is this isolated market that we put up with Bitwise and Athena. It's a very kind of limited market. So it only has three assets in it. Usde, which is Athena, Stablecoin, USDG from Paxos, and of course, Solana itself. And bringing Bitwise in was an essential part of the equation. Here they are what's called the risk curator on the market. So they're the ones identifying the right LTVs, the right liquidation thresholds, the Oracle setup, the OPSEC side, et cetera, et cetera. They kind of make sure that the market works well. And this was really important at this moment in time. In particular, as you mentioned. And as anyone who's been paying attention to Defi has noticed, it has been a difficult few months for Defi, especially on the security side right now. Thankfully, we have avoided all of that at Jupiter. There's been no bad debt, no exploits of any kind and so forth. But we knew we needed a partner that had the kind of institutional expertise, they could speak the language of the institutions and create that trust that was needed to kind of like bring back some of that trust into Defi that. Hey, yes, there have been some problematic spots elsewhere, not with Jupyter, but there have been going on. Let's bring in the big boys to show that we're taking this as seriously as you could possibly take it. This is their first major foray, Bitwise, as your viewers probably know, has something like $15 billion in assets. They're one of the major ETF issuers for crypto products around the world. And now this is their first major foray into decentralized finance. You're getting this great mashup of, you know, the best of traditional finance minds, the best of Defi, kind of coming together to build what is ultimately, you know, the best lending product for all users.
- [12:21]
Host 2
Yeah, I was going to bring that up. I was going to say, I think this is the first time that an institutional asset manager has curated a market for. For your lending product. Right, Correct.
- [12:31]
Kash Donda
Yeah. We've had many offers in the past to do it, and nothing against the other curators. You know, they're all great. But we wanted to really make sure that when we did it, it was going to be big and with the best possible partners. And so that market ran up to about $530 million in total market size inside of about 72 hours. It was growth like we've very rarely seen, quite honestly. And of course, bitwise is a big part of that. Athena is a big part of that as well. And so it's really just kind of bringing the avengers together. Right? Who can build the best trust? Who has this kind of next gen product? Athena, who has the best lending infrastructure, which is us with Fluid, who we built Jupyter Lend together with, and who's got the distribution that can actually take it to users all around the world.
- [13:13]
Host 1
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- [18:33]
Kash Donda
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- [18:33]
Host 1
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- [18:54]
Host 2
Yeah, wow. Can you walk us through how the lending product works? Because, you know, there's questions out there, right? There's some places where it's like, oh, you have to be institutional or it's in, sorry, excuse me, it's institutional only. Other places say, hey, you know, institutions can come in, but we want to focus on retail. Some places do both. Some, you know, have, you know, security requirements. Right. You need to show proof of concept. In Defi, it's a little bit different because in centralized finance, it's pretty straightforward and it's pretty. I don't know how I want to say it, maybe like linear in the sense that it's almost all the same. If you're going and doing lending from a centralized standpoint, it's almost the same everywhere that you go. But in crypto, there can be a lot more variables kind of inside of this. So how does the lending product work and who would you say it's meant for targeting, if anyone?
- [19:44]
Kash Donda
The latter question is easy to answer. It's meant for everybody. So Jupyter Lend is a permissionless protocol. Anyone can participate. We've had more than 100,000 users use it over the last nine or 10 months, which is pretty incredible. Lending markets typically do not have so many users. We end up having a lot of, of retail users who are doing deposits as small as $10 or $100 at a time. And then we have a bunch of institutions who have, you know, nine figures of capital in the protocol as well. And the reason they all like to use it is that it's simpler for lenders and it's better for borrowers. The basic kind of mechanic here is pool based lending. So traditional finance, of course, you have a bank that sits in the middle. They're doing underwriting, they're saying, hey, it can be an under collateralized loan and then they can come after you using whatever the legal system, et cetera, to make sure that you pay those debts back. In crypto, we don't have that benefit so much. Like other borrowed protocols, our protocol is over collateralized, which means if you want to borrow $100, you got to give us more than $100 in collateral and that goes into this pool. So Jupyter doesn't really, you know, custody of the funds. In that sense, they're held within the protocol, which is itself open source. Everything is visible on chain. And Jupyter's got two kind of Jupyter lend has two kind of unique things about it. The first one is that we have this very interesting earn page design where you can deposit stablecoins in and we will automatically route those across the protocol to give you the best rates at all times. Many other protocols, you know, they might have 10 different markets and you kind of have to identify which one makes sense. You have to swap at various points, you know, rates go up and down, etc. Etc. Ours is much simpler. Just you put in your stable coins. We'll make sure that you get the best possible yield. And with that you also get a receipt token that just sits in your wallet so that you know your deposit does not magically disappear. This is like the scariest thing. I don't know if you felt this when I first got into defi. First time I used aave put the tokens in, they're out of my wallet. What the hell is going on? Where did my money go? If you forget about it, you're obviously, you know, in some real trouble for us. We give you a back or receipt token that sits in your wallet and just constantly increases in value. So you always know where your assets are and you're always kind of seeing that value accumulate in real time. The second thing that we have that I think is really important is a 100x improvement in liquidations. Liquidation is the fundamental heart of these borrow lend protocols. It's how you ensure that people are not going to have bad debt that has to get socialized to other users. We work with Fluid, which is an EVM based team, to develop this together and it basically allows us to liquidate extremely efficiently. Most borrow lend protocols, when you have a liquidation, they liquidate position by position. And this makes sense, it's a logical way to do it, but it's inefficient. It's like imagine if you wanted to cut your hair and you had to tweeze every individual hair. Each individual Hair is a position said what we do is group the positions together by tick or by price, and then we liquidate up to that price as needed, which is instead of tweezing your hair, it's like using scissors to cut a bunch of hairs all at the same time. And because it's so much more efficient, we can have higher LTVs and higher liquidation thresholds and lower penalties, which is much better for borrowers. Right. We hope you don't get liquidated. We don't charge any fees on our end. We make no money if you do get liquidated to align incentives. But in case you ever do, you're going to get liquidated for the absolute smallest amount of every single time.
- [22:50]
Host 2
Yeah, I think that's important. Right. No one likes getting liquidated from like a false candle, right? Oh, there's a little bit of slippage. Something goes wrong with the Oracle, you get liquidated. It's a frustrating process. I think defi has come a long way, though, in recent years. I think you've seen it come a really long way from some of the problems that we probably encountered closer to the early stages of defi, like 2018 up to like 2020, dare I say, even like 2021. Even like, we've come a long way since then. And the cool thing about lending specifically is that there's two sides to it, right. If you want to go borrow, you can. You can be one of the borrowers. If you want to actually go lend and earn a yield on your money that you have sitting idle, or on your crypto that you have sitting idle, you can do that as well. And I think that is what probably becomes appetizing to the average retail person out there. And I think that, you know, the more advanced people like to go and borrow. And, you know, they borrow for different reasons. Some people want to get levered up, other people just want to get as maximum exposure as they can to different defi protocols and farming. And there's a lot of variety to it. But for the people out there who just maybe have a bunch of crypto sitting around, what products can they lend or I guess, what assets can they lend and what do you kind of see as a yield for them?
- [24:10]
Kash Donda
The simplest things to lend will always be stablecoins. And so what we oftentimes recommend is if you're a trader or if you're just somebody that has some funds on chain, maybe you keep some money to send around, you're sending money back to your family in a different country or something like that. We recommend you just lend your stable coins and the nice thing here is that you can actually swap directly into them from the jupyter router. So you don't even have to go to our website and click the buttons and whatever else you can just swap into a token. My favorite of them is Juiced which is the Receipt token for JupUSD. So you get R stablecoin deposited the protocol, you get back a token called juiced which is paying something like five and a half percent apy right now again you can just swap directly from any token into Juiced and start earning that yield kind of continuously. That ends up being the kind of dominant kind of lending use case. There are people that lend SOL as well, for example, so you can earn some extra yield on your sol. And then on the other side of the table, the most common kind of use case we see is multiply loops. This is when you take an asset, you pair it with another asset as debt that is kind of pegged to the same price and then you kind of lever it off to amplify your returns. So Joop Soul is our liquid staking token. It's a version of SOL that accrues more rewards. You have that as collateral, you borrow out SOL as debt and now those prices are fully pegged, right? Those prices move in tandem so you're never going to get liquidated on a price based movement. But you can increase your yield by kind of borrowing soul, getting more Jupe Soul, borrowing more SOL etc. And going back and forth in that loop. And I think right now it's something like 17% APY on holding soul. So instead of just holding regular naked soul, you could hold this and earn 17% or something like in those bouts. Now those rates are variable, it's worth saying. So they sometimes are higher, sometimes they're lower. But that is I think like a really simple and easy use case for. For many people to do. Even with juiced, I will say the juiced loop as we call it, you can earn about 13% on your stable coins with very kind of vanilla lending. There are risks, you should look at them. We have more listed on the website. But it's a very. It's a relatively straightforward way turn some extra yield on your assets for sure.
- [26:07]
Host 2
Yeah, I think that's interesting. I mean that's a lot higher than the average staking rate. And that's what I think some people look at is saying, okay, well I can go from earning nothing if I sit on it. I can earn a little bit more if I Stake it. I can get a few percentage points. Then you're looking at lending, which is interesting. I always think that it makes sense that if you're lending you should be earning more than the base staking rate. And in this case it sounds like you are, which I think makes sense. Right. I've never understood that. You go to some places and it's like, oh hey, you can earn, you know, 5% staking and you'll earn, you know, 3% or 2% lending. And I'm like, well, I don't know if that really makes enough sense.
- [26:46]
Kash Donda
Yeah, I think it's oftentimes those products I think are can be a little bit deceptive or kind of trick people a little bit that it makes sense. Or hey, maybe you want to just farm the token airdrop rewards that might be coming. There's like some other non economic kind of reason to do it there.
- [27:02]
Host 2
Well, I want to talk about security as well. Right? Yeah. This will be maybe one of the final notes on this topic because I'm just curious how you manage risk and security with something like this because the listeners out there probably have a slight case of the jitters from what happened fairly recently here with AAVE and Kelp Dao and that situation spooked a lot of people. Right. I mean aave, big name in the lending space, been around for a while. I know that this probably had a little bit more to do with kelpdao, but we talked to Spark about this, who is another Ethereum based project. So a little bit outside Solana, but we talked to them and they're like, yeah, this wouldn't have been able to have even been possible through Spark nonetheless. Right. I think people just have the jitters something like this happens. It's gnarly. There's been quite a few exploits and hacks and whatever we want to call it this year. What kind of measures do you take to manage risk and security when it comes to a lending product which people are a little bit nervous about?
- [28:04]
Kash Donda
Indeed. And I will tell you from a builder perspective, it is the scariest of products to build because it is this giant pool of $2.2 billion that's on chain. And so security is like the main thing that we think about. It's the main thing that keeps us up at night. I think it probably comes down to three different factors. So the first and the most obvious is code quality. Right. You need to make sure that your code has been audited. Jupyterlen has been audited seven times. You want it to Be open source. Because if it's open source, people can really dig and attack it in the right ways. We've been open source for many months and you want to be formally verified. Formal verification is basically like a fine tuning of some of the individual parameters that help prevent certain economic use cases. It's a higher bar, it's a slightly different bar than an audit. But it's another way to kind of instill that confidence. So on the code side we feel very common, right? Seven audits, open source, formerly verified, bug, bounty, program out there, all that kind of stuff. And I think that's where a lot of people stop. We go the next step, right? So it's code and then it's also operational security. This is where you've seen some other projects get really hit recently. This is one of the things that happened to Drift as an example. And so what we try to do is focus on our multisig authority. So it's never just one person that can edit the protocol. You need 6 out of 10 signers and critically we have time locks on it, right? So even if somebody was able to control six wallets and then pass through some kind of update, there'd be a 12 to 24 hour delay on their ability to actually for those changes going live, which gives us time and anybody else time to kind of monitor, address the situation, reverse it, whatever else it is. So that 12 hour time lock that we have is extremely helpful. But then the third case, and this is the one most relevant to the AAVE side, it's also about asset selection and the amount of due diligence you're doing on your assets and the type of rate limits you put on assets to make sure that they can't disproportionately impact the protocol. So Jupiter Lend, we have one primary market and then we also have this Athena market as a separate, completely separate instance. But in the main market you'll notice that there's not a lot of different types of collateral, right? We don't have 80 different tokens that you can use. It's somewhat limited. And people come to us all the time like, hey, can you list this asset? Can you bring it on? And we don't because we need to keep it highly, highly curated. And then we also have dynamic rate limits to make sure people cannot withdraw too much, or if there was to be an exploit and some other kind of controls to make sure that those asset problems don't hit us. And if they did hit us, they'd be very much limited in the size of the impact.
- [30:17]
Host 2
That's a good point. Right. If people come and they say, oh well, I want to be able to lend anything and I want to be able to, you know, all my favorite altcoins. And while that sounds good in theory, or while that sounds good on paper, being able to lend anything and earn yield on everything and all that, it actually creates probably more of a security risk. Right? Because then you have all these different attack revenues where God forbid one happens or something happens to one of what now is very many different protocols that you have options for. You have more counterparty risk that way. Right?
- [30:53]
Kash Donda
Absolutely right. Yeah. I mean, and to be clear, we could make way more money than we are making now. We are very like specifically giving up on revenues in order to put security first. And honestly, there's a lot of great assets that are out there, prime or unre or any of these things that are on Solana that have a lot of yield. People would love to loop on them. Users ask us all the time and you know, our primary focus is not on revenue, it's not on kind of growth tbl. It's on security and making sure that things stay safe for sure.
- [31:19]
Host 2
Well, I think that's a good way to think about things. And you know, again for the listeners out there, sorry, you know, if you're, if your favorite altcoin isn't something that you can earn a yield on and it lends, but at the end of the day it probably is for the best because security really is what matters the most. And I think crypto is at a point now where people want to see a focus on that. You know, they want to stop seeing defi exploits and they want to stop seeing hacks and they want to see this be thought of as a very like traditional next generation solution. And I think the, you know, one of the first steps, there's many ways that we can kind of get there, but I think one of the big steps that the crypto industry needs to take is to stop seeing these exploit and hack headlines and stuff like that. And so.
- [32:00]
Kash Donda
Yeah, that's right.
- [32:01]
Host 2
It helps everyone take it a little bit more seriously and just feel safer in it too.
- [32:05]
Kash Donda
So.
- [32:07]
Host 2
Well, there's a lot of other products. Where do we even begin with some of the rest of these? I'm going to ask you here, I'm not sure if you can pick a favorite child, but what are some of your favorites here in the rest of these products?
- [32:20]
Kash Donda
Yeah, I mean no matter what I say, I'm going to piss somebody at Jupyter off. You know, we have a team of like 150 people. Someone's going to hit me up to this. I think that the product that is the, that I use the most is Jupiter Mobile. So I use our mobile wallet. I think it is by far the best mobile wallet. It's substantially cheaper than other platforms and it's more performant and it honestly just has more features.
- [32:39]
Host 2
Jupyter lends the right end. What do you mean by it's cheaper than other platforms?
- [32:44]
Kash Donda
The fees are much less. So, you know, you'll go to other wallets. I won't name any names, but you know, they'll charge you 85 bits for transferring between stable coins. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me why there'd be fees on transferring between different stablecoins. And so, you know, we have zero fees on swapping different stable coins. And even on volatile tokens, you know, oftentimes the fees are much, much less on our end. Somewhere between 8 to 10 times cheaper, depending on who you're comparing to for many tokens. And that's just like kind of what we think makes more sense, quite honestly, rather than kind of maximizing fees, because over time those users will notice that they're losing quite a bit of money. You're losing 85 bips every trade that really has a material impact on your portfolio over time. And then you'll stop using on chain technology and you'll go back to centralized exchanges or whatever else it is. So we try to keep the fees as low as possible, but it's also about features. It's not just about fees. So inside of Jupyter Mobile, you can see your entire defi portfolio. So if you have assets in any other protocols that'll show up directly there. So you can see your whole portfolio at once. You know, we have P and L, which is a feature that most other or many other wallets don't have for some strange reason. Lending built in. We now have a stablecoin credit card or, excuse me, a stablecoin payments card built in as well, and a few other things that a lot of other folks don't have. So Jupiter Mobile and the extension wallet.
- [33:57]
Host 2
I'll.
- [33:58]
Kash Donda
I'll say today, but if you ask me tomorrow it might be portfolio. The next day it's verified. You know, it's like it changes all the time. Time.
- [34:04]
Host 2
Yeah. Well, is there any products that you have not yet added and you're like, I really want to. Maybe it didn't work out. Maybe you're working on it. You Know, maybe it's just a thought but like are there any products out there that are yet to go live to the public that you're interested in and you know, potentially like open to or looking into?
- [34:28]
Kash Donda
There is actually one. It's still in private beta. It's going to be coming out in public beta very soon. But it's called Offer Book and offerbook is another credit product actually, but it has a fundamentally different model than Jupyter Lender. Most other borrow lend protocols out there, most of them are pool based. Right. And as I said, you need to have very curated asset selection. You need high quality oracles, deep Dex liquidity to handle liquidations and all these other things. Offerbook is a kind of radical new take on how lending can work on chain. And there what we're doing is an order book based method instead of a pool based method. So in Dexs you might think of like AMMs versus pool clubs like Central Mid order Books. There's a similar kind of kind of difference. And what's really cool about this is that it's fully peer to peer lending. So instead of peer to pool like Jupiter Lend, it's peer to peer, which means you can have any asset as collateral as long as there's a lender who's willing to lend against it. And there's no price based liquidations either. That's the kind of crazy part of it here. Right. And so that actually provides a bunch of other benefits, but the primary one is you don't need Dex liquidity, you don't need oracles. And so this is really what's going to support using Pokemon cards as collateral, using watches as collateral, using meme coins as collateral, using anything. Any asset that is on chain can suddenly become a productive asset in the sense of either generating yield or being used as collateral for you to borrow against. That is the one I'm most excited about. It is definitely a little bit further out there in terms of like defi innovation land. But big shout out to Quinton and Matt and the rest of the team who've been working really hard on that. Should be live very soon. It'd be interesting to see how that kind of disrupts the existing lending landscape.
- [35:59]
Host 2
Yeah, and when it does come out, you'll certainly have to let us know. We like making tutorials over here. You know, we got a YouTube channel too and anytime something new comes out, we love to put out a tutorial on it because there's usually people inside of our community who are interested in using it. So definitely give us A message when it's live. And we'd love, we'd love to hear about it. Talk about Solana as an ecosystem. I think that given kind of the, dare I say, I'm going to say the forbidden words here, but the bear market that we've been in, the bear market that we've been in, despite that, Solana has remained one of, if not, I would say it has remained the most active chain in crypto. When you're looking at just raw activity and transactions and stuff like that, Solana has remained just the most active. What has that meant for Jupiter as a defi platform? And I guess how has that maybe changed, how does that change going from like a bull to a bear market?
- [37:03]
Kash Donda
It certainly changes the kind of composition of how people are using the platform, right? So in a bull market there's much higher demands for leverage. There's obviously much more trading of meme coins and these other things. And in the bear market you see people kind of going back to basics, right? Stablecoin yield, for example, rather than trying to like get max leverage, you're just trying to earn yield on stablecoin coins. Rather than trading every new token as soon as it's launched, maybe you're trading more of the majors and so forth. And so what we've seen is a lot more people using our stablecoin payments card that just came out called jupyterspend inside of the mobile app that's now doing like millions of dollars a month in volumes, which maybe would not have been the case in a bull market where people are just kind of, instead of spending their crypto, they're just trying to trade it up. Right? We're seeing more people coming and kind of doing deeper research on tokens as well. So not necessarily, necessarily aping into every last token that's created within 10 seconds, but doing a little bit deeper research using our terminal product. And so you're seeing kind of like different hotspots kind of emerge in the product suite right now. What's been really cool is that because we've been the default place to trade on Solana for so long and are now becoming the default place to earn yield as well. Bull market or bear market, people will kind of continuously come back to the website or come back to the mobile app and start to discover new ways that they can kind of like have fun on chain. So prediction markets is something that we launched somewhat recently. We're seeing all time highs every week in terms of volumes on our prediction market. Despite the fact that volumes overall obviously are down in the ecosystem. So you see different things kind of rise and fall based on what the market structure is like.
- [38:30]
Host 2
That is interesting. I was, you know, I was about to ask you, what different areas do you see kind of wax and wane with market cycles? And it makes sense. I think obviously in a bull market you're going to see trading go up, you're going to see perpetuals and leverage and stuff like that go up. But in a, in more of like a bear market or in a market slowdown, it sounds like you're seeing more activity in stablecoins. Do you see, I guess what other products besides that sees more activity in a bull market versus a bear market?
- [38:59]
Kash Donda
Honestly, Jupiter Lend has continued to grow despite the bear market. So even as with all these hacks and the defi liquidity crisis that's out there and so forth, I do think that the, the total addressable market for savings is much larger than the total addressable market for trading. Right. Even though crypto was built on trading rather than on savings, I think you're starting to see that kind of shift a little bit right now, especially in this bear market. As more people receive stablecoins through payments or from their employers or from their friends or whatever, there's more of a desire to kind of have the savings type product on chain. And so Jupyter Lend has been one of the very few protocols that has seen substantial growth throughout the bull, throughout the bear market as well. So that's certainly one. Like I said, prediction markets is another big one. And then actually we have a new product called Verified, which is basically a token information layer that helps identify like high quality information about legitimate tokens. And we're seeing more people use that every day, more people kind of digesting that content. We curate tweets all by humans, not by AIs and kind of verify tokens. And so we're seeing more and more energy piling into that right now too.
- [39:58]
Host 2
Wow. So if you had to narrow it down in terms of activity, what are the top three most active areas of Solana right now can be? You know, it could be trading, it could be deep in, it could be prediction markets, it could be lending, it could be anything. What are your top three verticals for Solana right now?
- [40:16]
Kash Donda
So number one with a bullet has to be payments actually. So I think that in Q1 of 2026, Solana did about $2 trillion just in Q1 for, for stablecoin volumes. Right. So a lot of people are using stable coins. It's now the Number one chain. We kind of dethroned Tron which had been number one for a very long time in terms of stablecoin volume. So people are clearly just using the network to move money around the world. Whether you're an institution and you're back in operations or like a retail person like myself. Stablecoins are certainly like one major area to be looking at. I think we're also seeing a lot of agentic payments. I should say something like 65% of all agentic payments are happening on Solana right now as well, which is helping contribute to those volumes too. So payments is a big one. Lending is certainly ascendant as well, especially as more high quality assets come on chain. And then finally I'd say actually trading, but not trading of like meme coins and stuff. But tokenized equities trading has really been a bright spot. So X stocks or something like X stocks. Exactly. So you can use, you trade X Stocks and Ondo through Jupiter. We're in partnership with both of those teams. And now you can actually use X Stoxx and Jupyter lend as well to borrow against and you know, earn some, some yield on. But we, I think Oxalana do something like 95% of all tokenized equities trading volume. Right. So that's largely where that's going to happen. And we're seeing that increasingly turn into this gateway drug where you know, you're a guy in the Philippines or in, you know, whatever other market it might be in Germany or whatever you don't want the high fees and the kind of the paperwork that's associated with traditional brokerage accounts come directly on chain. You can on ramp super easily. I mean with Jupyter Global, our product, you can on ramp for free, actually bring money on chain from any bank account and then instantly buy stocks, use them in defi, sell them at any time 24,7 buy fractional shares, et cetera. So I think tokenized equities are going to continue to be a major story. Bull market or bear market for Solana.
- [42:05]
Host 2
What do you make of the meme coin stuff? Because in the last, you know, let's just call it the last cycle, right? The last two or so years meme coins were a huge part of Solana driving a massive part of the activity and just getting a lot of attention. You saw all these different launch pads kind of go forth. There's a lot of activity towards that. It seems as if from my perspective and you'll have to let me know if I'm right. But it seems as if Solana is moving a little bit away from being the meme coin chain and having so much meme coin activity and moving more towards. I'm going to ruffle feathers. I'm trying to think of the best way to say this, but it sounds like it's moving more towards like, like, dare I say, real uses, right? Like purpose driven uses. We love Meme coins over here, right? We love them. We have team members whose sole, you know, purpose over here is like, let's talk Meme coins and do them. There's a lot of money to be made in them, but it does feel as if there's a little bit less a concentration of like, hey, meme coins, Meme Coins, Meme coins. And now there's different areas, like you said, like, you know, tokenization, lending, AI. It feels like that is gaining market share while meme coins are losing it on Solana.
- [43:15]
Kash Donda
Yeah, I think that's certainly supported by the data right now as well. Now listen, I'm not counting meme coins out. Who knows what's going to happen six months now. It might. They might surge up again. I think Meme coins kind of represent this kind of fundamental tension that's at the heart of crypto that I might describe as like the casino and the church. Right? And crypto is both casino and church. On the casino, you have people who are here for entertainment or to change their life financially or whatever else it might be. And on the church side, you have those who think that decentralized technology is a better way to do finance that is going to undergird, you know, the trillions of dollars of value in the kind of mainstream financial system and so forth. And you have these kind of two camps. And I think Solana has always kind of uniquely been the best place where you see this kind of synthesis between the casino and the church coming together. So the meme coins, listen, it was a lot of fun. It was very kind of profitable. It's what makes Solana so lucrative for a lot of businesses, including Jupiter, or it did previously. But critically, it stress tested the network, right? You cannot actually scale to real world usage until you're put under real world pressures. And Meme coins, Lord knows they put Solana under a lot of pressure, right? Just the amount of usage, the amount of. I mean, we were seeing something like 70,000 new tokens being created per day at the height of the meme Coin boom. Right. And so that kind of stress tests every. The network itself and every project on it. And so it made us Much stronger, I think. And yes, it is now true that because the network is so much stronger and actually can be used, people use it for stablecoin payments. Users came on and they stuck around. So now they're using lending protocols and trading Tokenized equities and RWAs and whatever else it might be. So I think it was a critical part of the growth. I don't think that the book is closed on meme coins for what it's worth. But yeah, I would assume that it will continue to be a smaller and smaller share of Solana stories over time.
- [44:56]
Host 2
Would that ever give you guys headaches when like the meme coin mania was at its hype?
- [45:00]
Kash Donda
Oh, all the time.
- [45:01]
Host 2
It was probably a double assured. Right. It probably helped you guys make a lot more off of fees and stuff, but at the same time it was probably hard to keep up with.
- [45:09]
Kash Donda
Oh my goodness. I mean the hard part with routing, right, is that you have to look at every single trade that's happening across the entire kind of chain at any given time to identify the right pricing and then split it up and then, you know, people really wanted to trade the second, like literally the first block that these tokens were created and the work that we had to do and God bless our engineering team to kind of reduce latency, make sure the transactions would land with minimal fees, minimal slippage. We had to develop an entire real time slippage estimator so that users would not get wrecked. There's been so many like kind of technical improvements that came our way and there was more than a few, you know, 3:00am BetterStack notifications hey, this thing's gone down. Wake up and get onto it. So yeah, I don't think our engineers slept much during that period time, to be honest.
- [45:51]
Host 2
Yeah, they're. They're probably resting well now, thinking thank goodness it's cooled down. So.
- [45:56]
Kash Donda
But they mostly don't sleep even now. If I'm being honest. Our engineers are built different. Yeah, they're just always finding difficult problems to solve, I'll be honest.
- [46:04]
Host 2
Well, that's because they're decentralized engineers. That's why.
- [46:07]
Kash Donda
So they're.
- [46:09]
Host 2
They were built for this purpose. But Cash man, really appreciate you coming on here. Lots of great conversations. Did we miss anything? I want to make sure that we cover everything. Is there anything that we missed that we should have talked about?
- [46:25]
Kash Donda
I think anyone that's watching this right now should go give Jupyter spend a try. So go get the Jupyter mobile app and try our stablecoin card. It's got some of the best features. We have up to 10% cash back right now on it and incredibly low fees. Like I said, free on ramping and off ramping as well. Direct bank accounts, multiple currencies, live in 60 or 70 different countries. So for people I know there's been a lot of talk of like crypto cars lately. I think that if you try Jupiter Spend, you'll never go back to anything else. So encourage people to check that one out.
- [46:53]
Host 2
All right, well, I like that. We'll, we'll have to let the users know and all the listeners out there. Go ahead, use it. Let us know. We'd love to hear back from you. Cash. Where else can people find you at? Maybe they want to follow along. They want to test some of these different products. They want to see your social medias. Where can they find you?
- [47:11]
Kash Donda
At best place to find me, for better or for worse, and probably for worse, is on Twitter or X or whatever people want to call it these days. I'm @cash donda. I tweet more than I probably should. So yeah, if you want to kind of stay up to date on what's going on in Solana, Defi and Jupyter and, you know, occasionally get reading recommendations and other nonsense, that's where you should find me.
- [47:32]
Host 2
Awesome. Well, Cash, thank you so much for tuning in here. We appreciate your time. And to all the listeners out there, we'll see all of you at the same time, same place next week. Take care.
- [47:52]
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Host 1
Listen.
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Kash Donda
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