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- [00:00]
Bryce
I'll be honest, once it gets hot out, I'm not trying to overthink outfits. I want something that's comfortable, breathable and still looks like I tried a little bit. That's where Quince is coming for me. And I absolutely love their 100% linen drawstring pants with the matching short sleeve button down that I just got from Quince guys. It's exactly the kind of thing I want in the summer. Super easy to throw on. Doesn't feel stiff, it doesn't feel heavy, it's breathable and it looks clean. Clean without being too dressed up. It's basically vacation energy without looking like you packed in five minutes. And you can have that vacation energy all summer long at home as well. Quinta's high quality essentials without the luxury markup. We're talking linens, organic cotton tees, lightweight sweaters, all the stuff that you actually wear. Their European linen pants and shirts are a great warm weather upgrade. And the price is right. They're starting at just $34 and pricing is a big part of it. Everything at quints is 5050 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman. So you're paying for quality, not just the logo. And they go way beyond clothing. You've heard me talk about how much I love the Quint website. They have bedding, cookware, sofas. It's one of those sites where you go for one thing and end up staying for many more. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quint.com crypto101 for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns to now available in Canada too. That's Q-U I N C.com crypto101 for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com crypto101 are you curious about the economic forces shaping your daily life? The Planet Money podcast from NPR makes sense of the economy in ways you'll actually understand and enjoy. Guys, you love listening to the rundowns. I get some of that information from this NPR Planet Money podcast. Especially recently with the war going on, the straight of Hormuzzi. Uh, you're just kind of getting those updates as they come from these guys. They put out a ton of awesome content. It's a different perspective from crypto101 but still a great listen. So go over there and check out the Planet Money podcast. If stuff like current events and the finance world interest you, each story on Planet Money starts With a question. Recent episodes ask why Pokemon cards are growing faster than your retirement count. Questions about the war, just like we talked about recently a lot on our program. From the job market to the stock market to prices at the supermarket, Planet Money explains it all. Planet Money is a different kind of world where the complex economy somehow makes sense, where human stories supersede abstract theories so you can learn, laugh, and be entertained. It's econ, but just down to earth. The hosts go to unusual lengths to explain the economy. They've published their own book to track the global supply chain. They've shot a satellite into space to understand the economics of the private space industry. They've gone inside a live book auction to show how ideas get get to market. It's the kind of show where you learn something, probably laugh and walk away seeing the world a little differently. And I think if you like crypto101, you'll enjoy Planet Money. So maybe check that out. Follow NPR's Planet Money podcast and understand how money shapes the world.
- [03:17]
All right, everybody, I hope you're having a fantastic morning, morning, noon or night. Wherever you are in the world, you are certainly in the right place. You've got your host, Bryce and Brendan, joined by an incredible market practitioner Today on the Crypto 101 podcast, a legend in the space, Chris Perkins, who is the incoming head of Franklin Crypto, currently the CEO of 250 Digital Asset Management. Chris, we are so excited to have you on the show. Joining us, we're going to talk about all things current markets, what to expect with the clarity act and, and so much more. But first, warm welcome. How are you doing?
- [03:56]
Chris Perkins
I'm doing great. Markets are up or down, but for those of us who've been in the space for a while, you just keep moving forward and, but really appreciate you guys having me on. Thank you.
- [04:06]
Bryce
Yeah, absolutely. Brendan, how are you doing, my man? Good to see you.
- [04:11]
Brendan
Good to see you too. I'm doing good. It's like you said, you know, we get a little bit numb to, I think, some of the volatility. If you've been around in the crypto space for any period of time, you get used to it. I think that's why a lot of us are here in the first place. So if anything, the volatility excites me, but definitely a lot to talk about here today, 100%.
- [04:31]
Bryce
And Chris, I'm sure that you look at the volatility and you've traded the volatility. You've traded billion dollar books. We want to know a Little bit about what got you into crypto. I know your background at the CFTC and Lehman Brothers and all sorts of incredible. You know, obviously, coin fund, another crypto fund, but. But get us up to speed, you know. How'd you get your start in crypto? What led you from the Tradfi markets over to our side of the train tracks?
- [04:59]
Chris Perkins
Yeah, I started my career in the Marines, actually. And I remember I was in Ramadi one night in the depths of the war, and I'm like, you know, I'm going to come home and I want to be part of what makes America, like, really amazing. And to me, that was always innovation, that was always building new things. And that actually took me in a very weird path to Lehman Brothers. And, like, people are like, what are you talking about? That's a bank. It actually wasn't a bank. It was a broker dealer. But back then we used to build businesses all the time. It was very entrepreneurial. And so I started a business there. It was in derivatives, and it was so cutting edge, like these things called credit default swaps that later came under a ton of scrutiny. But, like, we were always trying to innovate and create new types of businesses and products and exchange risk and et cetera. So I learned a lot through that, obviously went through the Lehman crisis, and bitcoin was born out of Lehman, as you guys know, and really focusing on how innovation was really needed to drive to keep leadership in this space. And ultimately, as time went on, I was running a bunch of businesses at Citigroup, and I realized in the beginning it was blockchain, not bitcoin. That was the thesis back in 2016, 2017, because you knew that you could totally make the world a better, more safe place with settlement, et cetera. But then I had this epiphany and I'm like, wait a second. This is much bigger than all that. Much, much bigger, because you can actually put private property into the Internet for the very first time. And I'm like, wow, I spent a lot of time on the Internet. I don't own anything. Nothing. Like, I don't even own my own domain, but. And, like, all the value accrues to the five dudes that run the Internet. Like, that wasn't how it used to be in my weird college dorm room where like, like the. The original Internet was weird, decentralized, but now we spend our entire lives in this, like, system. We don't own anything. And then I was like, wait, it's not just blockchain, not bitcoin. It's the, actually the assets, the digital assets. It's the crypto that really makes things super interesting because we're putting private property into the Internet now. That was the big thesis. And of course the ability to start extending financial. The democratization of financial services was very appealing to me personally. Like I've always been an idealist, like serve my country, but like the idea of extending financial services to people who don't have them. Like, I see AI as a democratization of information. Crypto is the democratization of finance. And now we're in this really interesting world where we have AI, we've got crypto, we've got quantum on the horizon. These are like civilization defining technologies. They're all accelerating each other. Very, very exciting times. But it really was that, like that, that whole private property thing in the Internet. And now when I step back and I'm like, oh my God, what we're seeing before our eyes as these traditional markets converge and collide. And we can talk about this till I'm blue in the face, but this thing called tokenization is electronification 2.0. And for those of us who've been around for a while, you see how we went from these voice analog markets. Then all of a sudden electronification took over, people fought it, and now it's like table stakes. Well, tokenization is emerging as the new electronification 2.0. Real time risk management. Last thing I'll say, because I could go on for a while because it's very exciting actually, is that the state of markets in nature are 24 7. Markets are always alive, they're always working. But our technology prevented us from participating in 24 hour markets because we get tired, we set market hours. That's not the real market. The real market's 24. 7. And now finally I'm seeing this thing happen where markets are becoming 247 across the board. Those are some of the major trends. It's just so obvious to me and that's why I'm excited about the space.
- [09:08]
Bryce
Yeah, I love it. And tokenization is something that we've talked a lot about here on the show. Bringing real world assets and making them 24. 7, 365 fractional, you know, permissionless in a sense. But of course, you know, different securities and so on will have different permissions wrapped around it. But it seems like this has been something, you know, we've all been talking about for years. It started the year at $10 billion, now it's 30 billion. And the clarity act is kind of right here in the middle. Maybe it'll get passed, you know, this month, next month. If not within the next couple months, maybe next year. Because we got midterms coming up, so there's a lot of kind of in between, you know, where we're at now in this ideal future that we're hoping for. But can you paint us a picture of that ideal future? You know, the promise and power that tokenization has, and then maybe color it in with a little bit of realism on the Clarity act and. And so on?
- [10:06]
Chris Perkins
Yeah. So this thing called the Clarity Act, I think it's going to be super, super important because fundamentally, it does something very important. It tells us what's a commodity and what's a security and how we can operate compliantly. It sets rules. Right. And for those of us who come from traditional finance, essentially you have regulations and you build businesses in those regulations. We never had that previously in the old administration. It was strategic ambiguity. So it was very hard for us to really innovate if you don't know the rules. And that is super, super important. Um, and by the way, in the past, maybe if you were called a security, it was a death sentence. That's no longer the case. Like, securities are awesome securities, whether they're digital crypto or not. Like, they have the ability for you to, like, really benefit from these incredible equity capital markets where you can raise a ton of capital. So securities are no longer a death sentence, but at least now, like, hopefully, we're going to know which is which. And, like, if the Clarity act comes, it's great because it enshrines these. These, like, it takes act of Congress to create a law. It takes an act of Congress to change a law. And so at least we'll enshrine these provisions for a very, very, very long time. Now, in the absence of the Clarity act, we're going to be just fine. Because we have guys like Chairman Selig, Chairman Atkins. I know them both very well. They're both very focused on what they should be, which is the principles that matter. Client protections, transparency, predictability, creating the conditions for economic advancement, capital formation, fair capital formation, all these things. Right? So these guys are working together to provide us that clarity. Either way, it's just. The benefit of clarity is that it's enshrined for a very long time. So that is a tailwind any way you strike it. And, like, what does this do? It actually opens up institutional adoption.
- [12:00]
Sponsor Voice
Why?
- [12:00]
Chris Perkins
Because institutions, they will take market risk all day long. They're happy when assets go up. They get sad. When assets go down, but that's what they're paid to do, they're very uncomfortable taking other types of risk, whether it's security, regulatory risk, they can't stand, reputational risk, probably the worst of all things. And that can stem from violating regs. And so that opens up this institutional error that we're seeing. That's why you're seeing it moving forward and catalyzing. Now, second question you asked Bryce was around. What does tokenization mean? To me, this is electronification 2.0 I always talk about. I used to work in the futures industry. The Bund future used to trade in the Life Exchange, Open outcry, big guys would get in a sweaty pit and Deutsche Borsa, your ex, built an electronic market and overnight that liquidity shifted. And a lot of traditional people in their mind are like, oh, this is happening again. Why? Because I'm a fiduciary, right? I have LPs, I have clients, I serve as their investment advisor, I serve as their fiduciary, I'm a fiduciary of their assets. If you look at two assets side by side and you have a tokenized equity and you have a non tokenized equity, assuming they're the same liquidity, I don't have a choice. I have to trade the tokenized asset.
- [13:30]
Bryce
Why?
- [13:30]
Chris Perkins
Because I can risk. And again, maybe it's a little bit more complex, maybe there's some security issues, whatever, but like say they're all the same. I have to trade the tokenized asset because I can risk manage it. When Trump invades Venezuela on a Friday night, when Epic Fury starts on a Saturday night, I can add or take away risk because that's what it gives me. It gives me 247 markets. It's a simply better product.
- [13:54]
Sponsor Voice
Product.
- [13:54]
Chris Perkins
It's electronification 2.0. And so you watch the slow. You talked about the slow and steady increase. I think Citigroup today or yesterday put out a report saying, oh, it's going to be $5 trillion, whatever. It's going to be kind of slow and steady until it's not, and then it goes vertical because it's simply better. Watch how markets electronified tokenization will behave the same way. We will be in a tokenized world before you know it, because it's simply a better product. It's electronification 2.0.
- [14:25]
Bryce
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- [20:15]
Brendan
well, I want to follow up with the Clarity act because I know that there's a lot of attention put put towards that right now and there's a lot of different opinions. If you look at the odds, it's been funny the odds on like poly marketing calcium stuff, it's like a roller coaster chart where it's up and then it's down. It's 80%, it's 20%, it's 60%, it's 40%. And there's just, I get, I think a lot of confusion when it comes to this. How are you thinking about that and what do you think is holding it up and what do you think can kind of get this thing resolved because everyone's excited about it. I think that it's, everyone can be in agreement. It's a net positive. Should we get this through. But what are you kind of seeing around this?
- [20:58]
Chris Perkins
I don't know. For those of us who've been around long enough, you know how difficult it is to get turn a bill into a law. The vast preponderance of bills die. It's very hard. It was designed that way. And if you remember the genius act, things get really weird towards the end. They just get bizarre. Like because, because people see political angles and they're able to extract something, whatever. There, there are a couple of issues that are holding this bill up in a way. And again, it's not holding it up. It's just that you're trying to build consensus across Democrats and Republicans and the various stakeholders and certain issues emerge, sides are taken and it is what it is. The first is actually very sad and upsetting to me and that's this thing called interest on stablecoins where the Banks are up in arms. Frankly, I would argue that they were asleep at the wheel during Genius if they didn't like it. We have the law of the land for stablecoins. It's called the Genius Act. It's in effect. In fact, the regulations are getting built right now. It spells out what you can and cannot do and issuers cannot offer interest. But then they didn't realize, oh, other folks like distribution agents, like Coinbase for instance, are paying interest. Oh, my gosh. This is going to undermine us. We don't like it. It's going to hurt our business model. So it's very sad that a market structure bill has been held up because we're trying to relitigate the Genius Act. Yeah, that's very, very unfortunate. But it is what it is. And so I think policymakers will have to come together and figure it out. It looks like it took a really long time. It looks like there was a compromise that was made. Again, you don't know what the law is until you see the final version of it. But it feels like that's being delicately navigated and hopefully not an issue. I'm hearing issues around, political issues around, hey, there's only one commissioner. You know, we want more commissioners for more balance. And then, of course, the big one is ethics. And there's people that just see red and they're like, I am never going to support crypto because Donald Trump like crypto. Trump supports it. He's making money on it. Before today, his family made two and a half billion dollars on it. So if he. If he's benefiting, I hate it. And my response to that is like, do you hate real estate? The dude's pretty long real estate, too. Is that really your problem? Do we have ethical issues in Congress when it comes to trading? I think so. And so if you pay careful attention, when Trump gave the State of the Union speech, he said twice he talked about the Stop Insider Trading Act. And so I think, yeah, I think ethics does need to be addressed. But, like, why are we holding the Clarity act hostage for Ethics? Because not enough commissioners are of a different party. And of course, stablecoin interests. Because it's politics. Because they can, right? That said, check out Patrick Witt, Harry Young, the team in the White House. These guys are working day and night to help educate and push people over the line. At the end of the day, it's politics. What gives me confidence in why I think this gets done is because the President does have a lot of chips. He's the president of the United States, when Epic fury began and the bombs started flying, what did he do? He put out on Truth Social that he wanted to get the Clarity act done. And so you know that that's very, very important. Midterms, I think as we approach midterms, there's a lot of people that are very focused on supporting the crypto space on both sides of the aisle. I was really happy to see Senator Gallego come out Democrat come out in favor of it. You know, I know him, he's a Marine like me. And he's doing what's right and what's brave. So, so kudos to him. So look, I think it gets done. It's the right thing to do. You never know. And if it doesn't get done, we'll be fine. If it does get done, really, really positive for the space.
- [25:05]
Bryce
Yeah, I remember, I think it was maybe the last time we interviewed you, you said that every line of regulation could move a billion dollars in capital markets.
- [25:15]
Chris Perkins
More than that, billions. Seriously, it's like one letter, one word.
- [25:20]
Bryce
Totally.
- [25:21]
Chris Perkins
It just translates to billions of dollars of downstream value creation or destruction. That's just how it works. I saw it with Dodd Frank. I'm seeing it again in real time. And that's why there's so many interest at stake as we're going into the final hurdle, because people stand to gain or lose billions of dollars. And I'm telling you, this technology could completely rewire the financial system as we know it. When you have this real time price discovery like we're seeing right now, all eyes right now are on SpaceX IPO. Right? And if there are certain projects out there that like, that have these markets and if, if they hit the landing and if they nail the price, like I think it's fair to say, like Trade XYZ for recent IPO, they were within like 3 to 5%, 3% of like the IPO price. If you have that price discovery, like it kind of changes the roles and responsibilities for the investment bankers. As you take a company public, maybe you're not going to set it artificially low and have that company leave money on the table. Maybe the fees are going to adjust. And so this technology has the ability to like completely rewire financial services. There are winners, there are losers. Losers. The stakes are very, very high. But either way we're going forward.
- [26:41]
Brendan
Well, despite all of this, you know, there's geopolitical issues, there's clearly Clarity act issues, there's regulatory things that are being debated. Despite all of it, you still have said that you think that crypto is a coiled spring in light of all of this, what gives you the kind of confidence that there's still this long term setup and you still have this very constructive view of what the future can look like?
- [27:06]
Chris Perkins
Look, like I said in the beginning, we're putting private property into the Internet for the very first time. That's a big deal right now because it's a frontier asset. You're always, it's highly sensitive to macro factors, narratives. Retail goes after shiny new toys and they come back. You're in this period right now kind of where there's almost max competition with AI, which is just weird, but it's just a thing because what's happening now is like people are putting their risk capital towards AI projects, IPOs, whether it's anthropic or JTB or whatever. You're Starting to see AI's unearthing vulnerabilities in certain crypto projects. We saw that with zcash recently. And so it's almost like these technologies are tactically competing, but when you step back for a second, you're like, whoa, hold on a second. These technologies are incredibly complementary. Crypto needs AI, AI needs crypto. Let's unpack those two examples. Right. So from a security perspective, yeah. Is AI discovering vulnerabilities 100%. But guess what? Those vulnerabilities are getting closed. Right. They're making defi much harder. Right. It's hardening. It's really going to enhance security in a way that's never been done before. So that's one thing. And then of course, as agents come on the scene, they need crypto rails, they need crypto rails for payments, they need crypto rails for, for all these other things. And so I think ultimately these are not competitive technologies. They need each other. They're very symbiotic technologies. We haven't even gotten to Quantum yet. So I feel long term bullish. I think the market's got Warsh completely wrong when it comes to crypto. I think he's going to be very, very good for the space. I think there's been a lot of macro pressures on crypto as well, whether it's via potential inflation due to the Iran war, the geopolitical situation. I think in time, as we move forward will get better, not worse. And that should also be another tailwind for the space. And the other thing that maybe I'm most excited about is a lot of the hype cycles are over and that's a good thing. We've seen time and Time again where meme coins, everyone apes into meme coins and then they get blown up because there's no utility. It feels like finally there's focus on projects where there is utility. There's questions around value accrual. And I think that's really going to separate the good projects from the bad projects. And that is a very positive environment when fundamentals come back in focus rather than hype. That's a good thing. So I feel good.
- [30:02]
Bryce
No, I, I love it. You know, I, I watch Bloomberg and CNBC and all that kind of stuff. And everybody's talking about these AI IPOs, right? SpaceX, which is kind of a. It owns XAI, you got anthropic and, and OpenAI with their confidential S1 filings for their IPO. And then it's almost like it's a talking point by somebody, I don't know who makes up these talking points, but it seems like everybody's got these same talking points, like, well, why is, you know, you know, high beta assets down when these are coming? They're like, oh, well, people are selling crypto. That's why. That's why crypto's down. People are selling crypto in order to raise money to buy these other speculative assets. And crypto's been falling long before any of these things were even rumored to be IPOing. There was obviously the breakdown on 10 10. I think that was structurally something that really happened that was exogenous or that was, you know, unique to crypto.
- [30:58]
Chris Perkins
Yes.
- [30:59]
Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [31:00]
Bryce
What's your read? Just on why, you know, why is bitcoin down other than just, oh, people are selling it so they could buy these IPOs. Unless you really believe that. If you do, I apologize in advance.
- [31:11]
Chris Perkins
No, look, I think that the narrative holds very strong. 21 million coins. It's, it's digital gold. And it's actually, if you. One chart to check out is the bitcoin gold chart. Once the Ariane world kicked off, it was really interesting. It has greater utility than gold as a store of value when the bombs are flying. Because it's really hard to transport your gold if you're holding it locally and you're in a fight. So, look, I think a couple of narrative things broke down. Michael Saylor decided to sell 32 bitcoin. Oh, my God, the world's ending. That's not bitcoin. Bitcoin is not designed to be centralized or be under the finger of a single individual or company. Right. That's not how it's designed. It's very decentralized and so sometimes I think the narrative gets in front of itself and retail freaks out. But again, these are oftentimes the time when you need to step back and say, well wait a second, what's the underlying value of this asset? Is the market overshooting in one direction or the other? And that's what you need to do as you underwrite any of your investments. So I think, I think it's a very constructive setup. Anytime you see fundamentals improving and sentiment bad, that tends to be a very, very good setup. By the way, we're also going through the four year cycle. If you believe in that. Sometimes it's a self fulfilling prophecy. But the other thing that's really interesting is that retail, this has always been a retail market, retail dominated market since its inception. That's changing now. And that's why fundamentals are becoming more important because institutions are slowly marching forward. They're building on blockchains, they're getting their heads around them, their teams have been attacked now they're accelerating. They're going to push that throttle down even faster as Clarity act gets passed, if it does get passed. But it's becoming more of an institutional market over time, different flows, material flows. I can't even begin to tell you how many institutions haven't even put their toe in the pool yet. They're saying, hey, you know, I need somebody to guide me. This is my first time. And now the great thing about these investors and it takes a long time to do these things and go through the processes, but now they're bored saying, you know, what do you have in crypto? In the past they would say oh, I got nothing. And they'd say great, great, it's too risky. Now they're saying what are you doing in crypto? And they're like, they're like, you need a solution, you need to have a crypto viewpoint solution. You need to have exposure. And it could be something as simple as like a market neutral strategy where you just want to kind of feel it out first or maybe you want to do something else and go into an ETF for example. But institutions need to have solutions. They need to explain to their stakeholders what they're doing and why they're doing it, rather than say I'm staying out because it's too risky. Those days are over.
- [34:07]
Bryce
Yeah. And to that point, I mean, moving towards Franklin, you know, Templeton right there, as far as I understood from the public documentation, they are acquiring 250 digital assets or purchasing it in some capacity and you know I want to know a little bit about, you know, what, what's going on at 250 and, you know, what are you guys building? How are you guys thinking about, are you guys market neutral? Are you guys long, short? And what sort of made you guys such an attractive acquisition target for one of these multi hundred billion, if not trillion dollar sort of fiduciary like Franklin?
- [34:45]
Chris Perkins
Yeah, they're nearly a $2 trillion asset manager. So they're sizable and they're scalable. And if you know anything about the asset management business, most businesses, in fact, they're businesses of scale. And I can't tell you why, you know, they chose us, but I can tell you what attracts me to them. It's the fact that they have incredible visionaries at the top of the shop. They are, they're missionaries, not mercenaries. They have a vision. They've been in the space since 2018. They understand what it takes to win and they're not beholden to tactical market cycles. They see where the world is going and they're building that foundation. And again, they've been here for a long time and they're just, they're ready to scale and they're excited to accelerate that scalability. At the end of the day, they are a client centric business. And when their clients are asking them, like I said earlier, I need exposure to this space. I need to understand this space. I need someone that I can trust to help guide me through the space. You know, that's what they're keen to do. They're here to scale and to support their clients. The last thing I'll tell you that I think is certainly appealing for some clients is that when I'm having conversations with them, what makes me excited about Franklin Templeton is not only the scale that they bring, but it's the people that no one likes to talk about. It's the legal teams, it's the compliance teams, is the cyber teams. Like I said, it's one thing to take market risk, but when you have a world class company that's focusing on those elements, investors, that's something that I can deliver to investors. Is all the things that people don't talk about that are hugely important as you step into the space for the first time, that's what gets me excited.
- [36:45]
Bryce
Yeah. Is it a strategy that they're acquiring that they really like? Is it just the team? How are you guys capitalizing on the space?
- [36:55]
Chris Perkins
Yeah, so they're going to be acquiring our liquid strategies, our existing liquid strategies and our liquid teams. So the team's super excited. And yeah, we're ready to scale and scale the offering across multiple strategies. That's what I could tell you, definitely.
- [37:13]
Bryce
I think it sounds incredible and I know a lot of our listeners are probably curious how they can get involved. If they can get involved, would they just sign up for Franklin Crypto and then they'd be involved or just got to come back and figure it out.
- [37:27]
More to follow.
- [37:29]
Chris Perkins
You know, we have, we have strict, you know, marketing rules that we obviously have to follow. So more to follow on that and you know, look at, look out for some exciting announcements in the future. But yeah, full, full speed ahead and can't wait.
- [37:44]
Brendan
And I, I think it's good to hear that because at a time like this, it's so easy to listen to the FUD which is out there, right? The fear, the uncertainty, the doubt. You see price falling. Sometimes you see maybe the more traditional financial assets rising and you hear this FUD in your ear, which is, oh my gosh, crypto's dead. The big giants are running away. Yeah. The institutions are running away. There's ETF outflows. Look at the activity metrics compared to, there's all these little things that you hear and then it gets you over time, especially as price decreases. But I think if this tells us anything is that they're doubling down. I mean, I know, Bryce. We were just, we're speaking last week. We were together last week and we were speaking and one of the things we looked at is all of the different banks and traditional asset managers that were hiring for a variety of digital asset based positions. And what this is doing is this is affirming that this is doubling down on that. They're not running away, they're not ditching it. What you don't see are mass layoffs of the digital assets divisions and any of these companies. I have yet to see one of those examples. And what we hear is the opposite of how can we hire more, how can we acquire, how can we look at some of the top talent like yourself, Christopher, some of the top talent and some of the top groups that have been built and how can we acquire those and integrate those? Because we know it's going to play a bigger part in the future. And so that's what I get from something like this is it seems as if it's just affirmation that they want to double down for a long term bet and not this little, if you think about it, guys, the little bear market that we've had so far. And I say little because obviously We've had far worse stuff over the course of all of our times in crypto. It still hurts, don't get me wrong, but we've seen a lot worse. But it's only been about nine months. And what they're not doing here is, is basing their future off of a nine month move in price action. That just wouldn't have worked. Imagine if, if, if, you know, Christopher, you had to do that in 2008, they said, oh, there's nine months of price action. We're throwing in the towel. This real estate, housing market, it's a scam. The stock market, it's a scam. They're not going to look at the crypto market taking the decline that it's gotten, you know, 50, 60% depending on the asset. Some little more, some a little less. And they're not going to throw in the towel there.
- [40:03]
Chris Perkins
So, yeah, you said it better. You said it better than I could have ever said it. Bren. Like, you know, it's funny, it's contrary to nature, but people like to come into markets when things are ripping and they're high. But that's not what makes a good investment strategy. You want to buy low and you want to sell high, right? And sometimes we see the opposite. And when you feel that like, funny pit in your stomach and you're like, I don't know, I don't know. Usually those are your best investment periods, when sentiment is down, fundamentals are improving and that's exactly what you described. So, yeah, it's not easy. And it's funny, I was on the phone over the weekend with one of the true, true OGs, one of the founders of one of the original L1s. Chris, sometimes you need a good washout, you know, it's a good reset, calm as could. You know, I feel the longer you've been in the space, the calmer you are because you're a believer and you know the trajectory. So anyway, it's. I think you're right. I think watch what institutions are doing. In my mind, they're not at all slowing down at all in anything. They're hiring more, they need more talent because again, it goes back to Electronification 2.0. These markets are rewiring. If they are left behind, they're in big, big trouble. And so they have to pay attention. And that's across AI and crypto produce. It'll be quantum and you can't look at them separately. If you think about it, crypto is the democratization of finance. Finance is changing. And if they are not on top of it. They're going to have issues. And so I see more and more doubling down. This is just one of many examples.
- [41:50]
Bryce
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- [43:12]
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- [44:09]
Bryce
that's superhuman.com youm know, I'm old enough to, to call these bear markets, builders markets. It used to be a really big meme, you know, biddle and all that kind of stuff. And it, this, I think this analogy popped into my mind because you have a military experience, but it's almost like we're in a ceasefire, right? When the market is down, you know, the two sides, the, you know, everybody's just actually, you know, doubling down, rearming, figuring out a way to get their hands on more crypto or more ammo or whatever. And it's not like people are, you know, running. It's a bear market. Everything's down and they're running away. They're, they're definitely, you know, finding ways to reposition, recapitalize and that when the bull market does come back, you know, they're, they're there to capitalize. So it's, it's something that, you know, really excites me. And if we kind of look towards, you know, towards the future a little bit in terms of what could pull things back in the right direction. I feel like we've already really groked here, the regulatory stuff, pass or fail. There's still a really good path forward. We've talked about, you know, tokenization and what that kind of means and why that's so positive. But I think one of the big, you know, questions, something that you're quite expert in as well, so I'm lucky that we have you, is rates and the Fed and monetary policy and all that kind of stuff. And so I'm just curious a little bit about your thoughts. I know at the beginning of the year we were pricing in a couple cuts, two or three cuts. Then the war happened, inflation respiked, oil was above a hundred. FOMC kind of got freaked out. And now everybody's saying, you know, we're not gonna have any rate cuts. The next logical move would potentially be a rate hike. So we're just in this confusion. There's a whole market's in this confusion right now. And I just want to get your take on where we stand with monetary policy and what can, what can we expect?
- [46:02]
Chris Perkins
Yeah, I think markets are now pricing in a 25 basis point hike this year.
- [46:07]
Bryce
That's crazy.
- [46:08]
Chris Perkins
Which, yeah, which was unfathomable, you know, a few months back. A lot of things are contributing to that sentiment. I think jobs, jobless, jobs have been very strong. The economy's strong. Inflation seems to be on the rise. Despite that, like, oil seems to be relatively contained based on what some experts say it should be at. Like, it should be at 150, whatever. We're not really seeing that. The question that you have to ask yourself is, are these conditions transient? And what's the timeline upon which the issues around Iran could secede and there could be a deal, and how fast does oil crash after that? Because oil stayed, you know, relatively contained. If, if the pressure and Hormuz opens again. Well, gosh, we could see very low oil because of the, the production that you're seeing in other places right now. So, Right. You have to watch it. I think the markets got effectively crypto got worse wrong the guy. I, I think it's going to be very challenging if his first move as, as chair is to see an increase in rates. It's going to be very challenging to see that. But I think if consensus is that there's a 25 basis point hike this year and you actually see going the other direction, that should be very positive for risk assets, should be very positive for crypto. And crypto has always been very, very sensitive to interest rates. So I think we're going to be fine. The other thing that I'm watching, which is really interesting, is it feels like there's a new Fed treasury accord. And of course people are very focused on ensuring that the Fed is independent. That was a big part of horses confirmation hearings. But, but independent doesn't mean that you're not cooperative and you're not working closely with your partners and treasury for coherent front to back economic policy. And I think you're going to see a lot more coordination, which again is not, doesn't mean that you're not independent. But Besant, these guys are smart. Like, they're really smart. They know what needs to happen. Besant's a huge fan of stablecoins, Right. He wants to see as many stablecoins as possible because it will stimulate more purchases of our bills, which is great. We like that. So I think we're only at the beginning now of seeing that type of cooperation. We're seeing a lot of strategic investments too, from the United States, which really haven't seen in the past as much in recent times. I feel like with these crypto markets, people forget that they're very volatile in both directions. And you can see Various avenues of various catalysts that could come into play that could make it equally volatile on the way up. Yes, we could see the same thing on the way down. But think about it. The Bitcoin reserve has been hanging out there for a long time. When the White House announces the plan at no taxpayer expense, could that be the catalyst we've been waiting for? Maybe if there's a strategic investment in certain, certain tokens or technologies, we're seeing
- [49:09]
Bryce
the United States microstrategy, I've been hearing
- [49:11]
Chris Perkins
people say, or microstrategy, like I'm not here to speculate, but, but this government is very focused on national security investments. And they've also made the case that crypto is an international security interest. I think it is as well. So, so you have to, you have to watch. I can't speculate what they're going to do, but there are plenty of unexpected catalysts out there, whether it's rates or otherwise, that could be very good for crypto markets. And of course, you know, there's risk. Well, so, but the thing is, I don't think crypto is going anywhere. I don't think it's going anywhere. It's resilient, it's hard to kill. It's going to keep going.
- [49:44]
Bryce
And I think it real, like a lot of it does come back to like, you know, the conversation around stable coins, you know, you know, the genius. I don't think it's an accident that the Genius act was the first crypto related bill passed. It happened when, you know, the US Government is looking for places to essentially, you know, sell their T bills and notes and stuff too. And I think every stable coin that's like, you know, regulated by the Genus act is now backed one for one by either dollars or, you know, T bills. And so this is really a way that, you know, could kind of, you know, get a little bit of the US hegemony extended if you are throughout, you know, the third war or the developing world. You could kind of now say, okay, well, I don't want to hold my, you know, Argentinian dollar, my Zimbabwean dollar, Lebanese dollar. I'd rather just hold a stable coin. And I think that that's a very, you know, interesting play. And I think I checked earlier about 320, $330 billion of stable coins now in existence. And Secretary Scott Bessant said he wants that to be 3 trillion by the end of the decade. You know, how do stablecoins kind of fit into, you know, your view on the market? Is this something That's a positive for crypto. Is it something that you think is kind of maybe a flash in the pan? How do you feel about stablecoins?
- [51:02]
Chris Perkins
I mean, it's one of the simplest instruments that you can imagine because you're just taking a dollar and turning it into a token. And yes, you invest it behind the scenes, and it's turned Tether and others into some of those profitable companies in the world. But why do you do that? Because of the utility. Right? You can move that dollar anywhere, any place, anytime, which is pretty, pretty incredible. And in theory, it gives people, the developing world, access to dollars for the first time in a much easier way without having to go through massive fees. And banks helps, remittances, et cetera. And for those in the developing world, from a relative perspective, it's an incredible store of value because if your local currency is inflating to a point where it's just, you're losing value every second that you're holding it, the dollar is less inflationary. It's a wonderful store of value. And in time there are opportunities for you to also generate interest on that. But whether you're moving to Deep Buy, which is also permissionless. So it's very wonderful if you're in a developing world and you now have a store of value that's liquid and holds. From a national security perspective, look, there's insatiable demand. The greenback is our greatest export. And the more the world dollarizes, remember those assets are sitting back home. It creates obvious demand for our debt. We like that. It keeps rates on the front end nice and tight. We like that. We don't want to pay a lot of interest. And the last thing, it's traceable. I think we seized $300 million in tether from the Iranians. And so it helps national security, it helps people around the world. There's a lot of, lot of good for more proliferation of stablecoins. But that's just like the simplest instrument. We have tokenized money market funds that pay interest. We have tokenized equities that bring idiosyncratic company value to individuals. And so hopefully this is the beginning or even fraction, you can fractionalize. I think, as you said earlier, Bryce, parts of certain assets. So dollars are obviously the first. They're the simplest. But as you go down the stack and you start giving people exposure to more sophisticated products, there's opportunity there as well, but there's also risk. And so that's one of the challenges, but also benefits. How do you make sure that your regulatory Regime keeps up where people understand what they're getting into. And don't even get me started with derivatives markets which are finally coming to the us. I'm so excited. We finally have perps. Congrats to my buddies over at Kalshi Bitcoin perps. These are other fundamental capabilities around risk transfer. Growing up, these sophisticated products, they were only available to certain a very elite part of society. And they got richer and richer and richer. A lot of the world was boxed out. The democratization of what I'm seeing makes me very excited. Whether it's pre IPO market or derivatives, risk transfer or basis trading, like all these things are now finally being offered to more and more folks, you know, with the right controls in place, the right disclosures in place. That's like really good.
- [54:12]
Brendan
Yeah, it is, it is. Well, there's one other thing that I want to talk about here and it has to do with Caesar, the composite Ethereum staking rate, often described as the quote unquote risk free rate for Ethereum. Why is it such an important milestone for institutional crypto adoption?
- [54:34]
Chris Perkins
Thanks for bringing it up. So, Caesar composite ether staking rate. When Ethereum went from proof of work to proof of stake, my institutional mind exploded and I was like, wow, there's actually a risk free rate for Ethereum now why is that such a big deal?
- [54:50]
Bryce
Staking yield?
- [54:52]
Chris Perkins
Yeah, it is. So it's essentially the mean annualized staking yield. And so if you think about it through like a trad lens, it's kind of like an interest rate, right? If, like if the protocol is the Fed, this is Fed funds or the SOFA rate, maybe a better example. But ecosystems have interest rates and if you have a bunch of eth and you got nothing better to do and you stake it, that's what you should be getting in return. Like, you know, is staking risk free? No, but that's the rate you should be getting. So almost think of it like through that lens. And again, nothing is risk free. Don't get me in trouble. Like. Right, but, but now look at what happens in trad markets. In trad markets we have this thing called interest rates and interest rate swaps. Did you know that's a $500 trillion industry with a T?
- [55:44]
Sponsor Voice
Why?
- [55:46]
Chris Perkins
Because people need to trade fixed versus floating all the time. This is the most natural thing. If you ever went to rates by, in nature, they're, they're floating, they move around. Right, but people can't make a living when rates are floating necessarily. So you go to, to your bank and you say, hey listen, I want a 30 year mortgage and I want a fixed rate because I want to know my liabilities. That's unnatural unless you swap it out. And so somebody wants to take it, the floating risk, Somebody wants to take the fisk, the fixed risk. It's again, derivatives allow for risk transfer. They are the foundation of global finance. And if you can do it with SOFR or Libor in the past, remember LIBOR was centralized and it was manipulated and it resulted in like people don't even know how much money was manipulated and lost.
- [56:34]
Bryce
Yeah, there's a big lawsuit about it, right?
- [56:36]
Chris Perkins
Oh, there was lawsuits for years. There's trillions of dollars that were impacted by manipulation. This is open and transparent and it's around a 3% real yield, 2.8% real yield, whatever. But now you need an observable benchmark, like you need social consensus as hey guys, this is the, this is the floating rate. And if you have that captured, then you can start trading fixed against that, you can start trading that against trad rates and you can start opening up this $500 trillion market that is really non existent. And this is what I think institutions, as the industry institutionalizes, they're going to want more sophisticated products or hey, I'm going to give you a product, an etf, right? I'm going to give you an ETF with yield. Okay, what's the yield? Well, I know that I should be getting at least Caesar, it keeps people honest as well as a benchmark. So yeah, a lot of utility for rates. Only getting started. And yeah, thanks for bringing it up. It's administered by a company called Quatrofoil. And yeah, I helped found and spin off that company. So I'm affiliated to it.
- [57:38]
Bryce
No, it's a great product and it's definitely something that the crypto world needed. And we wanted to close out with with the good old quantum question since I know you, you've kind of pontificated on this in the past. But you know, at the end of the day, you know, security of course is, is a huge concern of anybody who's involved with crypto. And in my conversations, people practically, or they ask me practically, like what can I do to protect myself? And I tell them it basically the quantum risk for the average person is pretty low because they're not going to spend, you know, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to attack your wallet with, you know, a thousand bucks in it. But if you do have concerns to basically send your money from a wallet where you've already had these transactions happen, send it to a fresh wallet that's never transacted before, and that kind of keeps it a little bit safer. That's like as basic as an explanation as I could have like kind of come up with. But I'm curious how you're kind of telling people to think about Quantum. Of course, like I think just the fears and like the perspective of, oh, Quantum could break crypto. There's not a centralized group of people saying like, you know, Jamie Dimon saying, okay, JP Morgan, you guys get Quantum ready next year and here's the plan, go. Whereas in crypto it's like we got all these nodes and miners and different ecosystems and it's hard to like coordinate everybody. And so I think that's kind of why people are a little bit more fearful in crypto because there's nobody to like lead us now. There's like Coinbase and Microstrategy and a couple of these big stakeholders that are taking the charge. And so just how are you thinking about Quantum in general when it comes to crypto?
- [59:24]
Chris Perkins
Yeah, for markets to work, for markets to function as they should, to see capital come into markets, you need one thing, and the most important thing is confidence. If confidence is ever shaken, you know, whether it's, hey, I'm putting my money in a bank, if I don't have confidence in that bank anymore, that's a huge problem. You have runs on banks, et cetera. It's very important that markets, layer ones, blockchains, they're able to have take the steps to make sure that people retain confidence. Quantum is coming, it's accelerating, it's not new. Like, you know, it's been, people have been working on it for over 100 years. Like, but now with AI, I think you're seeing more and more acceleration, more breakthroughs. You know, Google seems to be announcing more and more interesting capabilities. So the good news is that many of these ecosystems, including the Ethereum ecosystem, has announced that they are putting together the world class talent and Coinbase created a council. There's sufficient focus. And I think in crypto we're hypersensitive to it because our industry starts with the word crypto and encryption. And the fact that quantum could break encryption is very. So post. Quantum encryption is a massive focus of most of the practitioners that I know. They know how high the stakes are. I think for that reason I would expect for us to be prepared before Q day. And it's important that projects are transparent with the work that they're doing so that that Confidence doesn't go away. I think there's a lot bigger issues outside the crypto world and perhaps that's another reason why capital should be coming into crypto. To the extent that we are crypto secure and they are not, I do think long term we will have an advantage in our space.
- [61:15]
Bryce
Love it. Hey, that's all we got for you today. This was an incredible conversation where, where can people find out a little bit more about what you're working on and follow you ON X or LinkedIn or wherever you like to to chat?
- [61:29]
Chris Perkins
Yeah, either way, LinkedIn, I'm on there Twitter, Perkins, CR97 and yeah, hopefully hear a bunch of announcements from us soon. But fellas, awesome to be on again. Thank you so much for having me.
- [61:40]
Bryce
Absolutely. Rock on. Really appreciate all that you've done for our industry, for our nation. Thank you as well for your service in the Marines and for just being a great leader in our community. I know Brennan and I look up to you. A lot of the people that follow us do as well. So it's always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks, Chris.
- [61:59]
Chris Perkins
Humbling, guys. Thank you so much.
- [62:12]
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