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- [00:00]
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- [02:58]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Crypto 101 podcast. We hope everyone is having a good morning or evening because no matter where you're coming in from in the world, you're certainly in the right place here today. Man, the crypto market has been wild lately. Let me tell you what we have seen. Seeing all sorts of new volatility. It's been a pretty wild, rough year so far, right? Some pretty big moves down. But despite that, we always like to call these the builders markets, because the ecosystems in the projects inside of cryptos continue to be built, the back ends continue to grow. We see all sorts of new technologies and upgrades and updates. We love talking to founders and different industry leaders about what's going on behind the scenes. And that's exactly what we're going to do here today. So today we're joined here by Keane Gilbert. He is the head of institutional relations for Lido for Lido's Ecosystem Foundation. Keen, it's good to have you and thank you for coming on.
- [03:56]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
Brandon, thank you so much for having me. You're very kind.
- [03:59]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
Absolutely. This is going to be an exciting one. I think a lot of the listeners out there, they've probably heard of Lido before. Brief introduction. On Ethereum, you can do something called staking, right? In fact, a number of years ago, Ethereum switched over from being a proof of work blockchain and a proof of work consensus mechanism to being a proof of stake blockchain and a proof of stake consensus mechanism. Now we'll talk about what this means, but inside of that, you know, if you want to stake natively on Etherium, you have to have quite a few Ethereum. I think it's around 32 right now. And for the average investor, you look at that and you go, man, 32 Etherium times its current trading price of around, you know, 1500 to $2,000. It's not cheap. And so that's where something like Lido comes in, where you can actually stake at substantially smaller amounts. You can make sure that your funds are liquid so that you can interact with defi and stuff, but that's really where Lido comes in. Here is just the dominant player in the liquid staking space. So I know I'm not going to do it justice. So, keen again, once again, thank you for coming in here. Just introduce us to what Lido is and how it kind of works and what its role is inside the Ethereum ecosystem.
- [05:14]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
Sure. And transparent. I think you've hit most of the nails on the head, to be honest, so it's fantastic. But effectively, like Lido, like you mentioned, is the largest liquid staking provider. So effectively, people take their eth, they come stake it to Lido's middleware and in return they're given steth or steth. And you can effectively think of steth as like a certificate of deposit. And Lido is really trying to address probably two main point pain points, liquidity and capital efficiency. So one of the main issues with native staking is you're basically taking your eth, you're locking it away effectively in escrow, but when it's in escrow, you can't transfer it. So that's where the liquid staking token comes in, which is ste. So you can effectively take your STE token, deploy it into DeFi, use as collateral, borrow against it, or ultimately, if you want to get out of your ETH position and not have to wait in the exeq, you can instantly swap your steth into staples. Where we're probably seeing a huge amount of interest right now is more on the entry side. So, again, for context for your listeners, there is an entry queue before you can start earning rewards on your eth. And I think the entry queue right now is around 53, maybe 54 days. So that's 54 days where you're not actually earning staking rewards. Whereas with Lido, the minute you start staking your eth, you get staking rewards in one day. So that's incredibly attractive when I'm speaking to different institutional clients where they may not want to rotate their ETH or they want to start earning rewards quicker. That's what Lido effectively offers.
- [06:52]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
Yeah, I think that's important to understand because I was just at. We Sometimes we have these in person events and, and, and little conferences and I had someone come up to me and they were asking me about lido. We actually did a little bit of a presentation. I did a, one of those tutorials and walkthroughs of, of how to partake in lido and specifically, specifically the liquid staking side. And afterwards people came up, they were super interested and they had a number of questions because when you look at staking, people have a couple of different ways of approaching it. Either a, they take the easy route, they go onto an exchange, they stake through there and that's fine. You know, you usually get pretty good security. And the caveat or maybe the downside is that the exchanges are going to take a bigger piece of the pie. They're going to say, hey, we're going to make it convenient, we're going to make it easy, we're going to make sure you don't mess things up for yourself, but we're going to take a little bit of your rewards. And so some people go, well, I'm pretty smart, I can do this myself. So then they want to stake natively. And you know, I think that's where some speed bumps come in for Ethereum because it's going to say, hey, it's like you said, there's a queue, there's a delay, it takes a little bit longer. Your funds are not liquid, they're locked up. Once they're, they're inside of this and then on top of that, you know, you gotta have, I think it's close to like what, almost $50,000 in Ethereum to kind of meet the bottom threshold. So that kind of removes a whole nother group of people, you know, people who say, hey, I have some money in Ethereum, but I don't got, you know, 50,000 or close to that. I don't have 32 Ethereum in Etherium. So that kind of removes another group of people. And then there's the people who say, you know, I want to go into liquid staking, which I think really captures the most attention because it's saying, hey, we're not going to take massive amounts like the exchanges. Well, we're not going to take significant amounts. And you're also going to have these funds and this, this token that goes along with them called the liquid staking token, which is the STE or the ste. And for people who don't understand what the ST means, I already know people that are listening are going to go, Steve, what does that mean? ETH well, it stands for staked eth, Right, it's a little abbreviation there. But what you can do with these tokens is you can continue to take part in defi. Right? So you have this staked eth token and then you can go and you can use that staked eth token to go and earn a yield somewhere else, or you can go and, you know, put it up somewhere else and borrow against it. You can do all these different things and earn extra yield or just be active with those tokens so you don't have to sit completely inactive. Now the only difference there is that obviously if you want to come back and redeem the Ethereum that you staked, you got to have those liquid tokens with you. But I think that's where the benefit of something like this really comes. One of the big questions that I got from this in person event was, guys, can you talk about the security differences? What does it look like from a security or a risk standpoint? And I was like, you know what, this is a great question because I'm going to be talking to some of the Lido guys here just a week later. So can you kind of walk us through that? You know, for people who are wondering, especially in light of some of the hacks and exploits and stuff that we've seen this year, I think it's freaked people out and they say, I don't want to do anything too crazy with my funds here. What are like the main differences?
- [10:08]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
Yeah, no, I. Look, I couldn't agree with you more. Like, I've definitely gotten more questions than I ever have from clients asking, well, how is lido secured? How many smart contract auditing events have taken place? Has there ever been any slashing events? Obviously with what's happening with AI, it's become a real hot topic. And I think ultimately it's up to the end user to decide what level of, I suppose, involvement they want to have. Like you mentioned at the beginning there, there's obviously tens of thousands of people using centralized exchanges to stake, which to be honest, kind of blows my mind. Why would you spend 25 on fees to stake your ETH when you could go with other providers like Lido and only pen or spend 10%. Yeah, you're getting the same product. But like ultimately staking is kind of a sticky business. Like once people start staking, they tend not to rotate it that much. I suppose the key difference with Lido and one of the things that we're incredibly proud of, is that Lido is heavily battle tested. It's running around For a significant amount of time. There's never been any slashing events. We've spent millions, I think 4 or 5 million on smart contract auditing. We've opened bug bounties. And one of the things that I think most people are quite proud of a LIDO is that it's a middleware. So by that I mean nothing is actually staked with lido. It's distributed or decentralized, depending on what language you want to use among 900 different node operators. So one of the big benefits of that is there's no single point of failure. So if you go and compare that to a centralized exchange, that means it's centralized, it's one provider, they manage everything end to end. And again, like you mentioned, they do that incredibly well. But there is that centralization risk. Whereas with lido, because it's so diversified and decentralized, you don't have that single point of failure. And there's huge value for that. And that's definitely something that again, as we're speaking to more clients about AI and the risks around that, being able to say that LIDO is the largest, largest liquid staking protocol, I think 15 billion TVL, 9 million each staked. There's a huge amount of trust there, and there's an incredible amount of work happening behind the scenes to make sure that smart contracts are audited. We recently got Web3SoC compliance, Certa certification, I think an A rating there. So being able to say that we're this battle tested and we're so focused on mitigating and managing risk is kind of the big draw for our clients right now.
- [12:45]
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- [16:02]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
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- [16:33]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
No, it's a great point. I know Ethereum as an ecosystem right now is under a little bit of maybe stress or under a little bit of fire, right? You kind of see the sentiment online, crypto, Twitter, other places. Just a little bit of disgruntled behavior from maybe the average retail person. And I've seen you kind of previously talk about this. I think you said Ethereum was feeling something like. I think it was like unloved was the term you used. And despite kind of the major institutional adoption that we've seen, there's still maybe this feeling of just unloved right now. Now maybe that is frustration from just price being down, I think farther than people expected. Maybe that's just price being down longer than people expected. I think that's probably playing a pretty big role here. But do you think that sentiment has like genuinely shifted from last year to this year, from 2025 to 2026 and what kind of drove the change, if any, in this sentiment that you're seeing?
- [17:34]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
Yeah, I like, I genuinely think the sentiment is improving from an institutional perspective. Like I can definitely say from the institutional department that I run. Like we've never had so much ETH being staked from institutions, so much institutional conversations. Wisdom Tree launched the first Lido State ETH ETP in December. Like there's been terrific things happening. You can also see what the dots have achieved. Like I think that's a terrific momentum that hadn't happened last year. You can see what BlackRock has done with the ETHB product and getting that launched. But I think the tailwinds are not really crypto specific. I think there's a lot of macro stuff happening. And then obviously with the AI hype right now, I think that's probably taken a lot of money out of the market. I think a lot of the money that would have went into altcoins like Ether Salana. I think that's probably sitting on the sidelines right now or may have gone into AI. Maybe it's waiting to see what happens with the SpaceX IPO. I think there's a lot of interesting things in the market right now, but from an Ethereum perspective, I'm incredibly bullish. My view on this is if you're going to place a bet on a network, you place a bet on the one with the most money behind it and the most developers, and that is effectively Ethereum. Then the other thing I always say is the big guys, like the blackrocks, the Fidelities, the Franklin Templetons, they don't place bad bets, and they're all building on Ethereum for a reason.
- [19:08]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
So you said that you've seen more activity and maybe more love from the institutional side, especially when it comes to staking. Does that mean that the negativity that we're seeing is mostly retail reaction in that the institutional side is doubling down? Is there like a divergence or a disconnect there between maybe how retail is looking at this and behaving and then how the institutional side is.
- [19:34]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
Yeah, well, to your point before, like, people want price to go up.
- [19:38]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
Yeah.
- [19:39]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
And unfortunately, like anything in life, you know, like, the tide goes out, the tide comes in, price goes up, price goes down. Whereas I think if you're an institutional investor or you're a big black rock or a big institution of that size, you're not thinking in months or years, you're thinking in decades.
- [19:56]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
Yeah.
- [19:57]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
So, again, I think the average retail investor wants to see profits incredibly quickly, whereas again, the big guys know, they look at a longer time horizon. And again, I genuinely, I've never been more bullish. Like, all the conversations I'm having, these guys are actively looking at the space not just from a staking perspective, but also from a tokenization perspective. And like, I've been in crypto 10 years. Like, when I used to walk into meetings, you'd spend the first 15, 20 minutes trying to explain to someone that blockchain and bitcoin wasn't the same thing. And now I'm attending ETF conferences, and the entire conference is about tokenization. Like, I never thought that would happen.
- [20:39]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
Yeah, tokenization has come a long way. Let me tell you why. It feels like every podcast or interview that we do over here, it comes up in one way or another. And, you know, I think people have a hard time understanding, like, just how much these institutions want to bet on it or they want to believe in it. They hear about it, and then I think it goes over a lot of people's heads initially because it's not happening instantly, right? It's not something like, oh, tokenization hasn't been finished in a year, two years, three years. And it's not like that. I think things again move a little bit slower and so that, I don't know, maybe makes people have less conviction in it because like, why hasn't this been fully adopted yet? And it's like, well, that's just not how traditional finance works. It's a very slow process over there and over here. In crypto we're used to things moving at a million miles an hour. So we adopt things really fast, we build things really fast. We also break things really fast, which is why we get some volatility in the price action and you get some, some pretty big market moving events. But you know, to, to your point from earlier, I want to talk about some of these ETFs and ETPs because you've seen a big push to get staking into all these different traditional financial products in relation to Ethereum. But you know, even other products that you can stake, I know the Wisdom Tree staked Ethereum ATP is a big one for you all because that's actually using Lido's ste. I think I, I read somewhere that that reportedly involved like 450 due diligence questions in like a year's time or something, which is just a lot that goes into it. And so what that shows to me is that like number one, they care. They're spending a lot of time, effort, resources to make sure that this stuff works for them as like a major institution. I mean you're talking about multibillion, sometimes multi trillion dollar asset managers that are looking into this stuff. And then the other one just in regards to Ethereum staking as a whole was, you know, grayscale. Right. Grayscale distributed its Ethereum staking rewards directly to ETF holders for the first time in US history just a little while ago. And so you see this process from the institutional side getting increasingly more involved and interested in the staking side. Any thoughts on any of that?
- [23:06]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
Yeah, well, it kind of goes back to like what you mentioned there with like retail wants things now and institutions, it just takes so long, like with the Wisdom Tree example. So we are definitely speaking to them for probably a year, year and a half, 350 questions, I think maybe 450 questions, but that's the kind of level of detail you have to get into. So like getting them comfortable with the smart contract risk. Again, how do you manage events if there's a slashing incident, anything and everything you could think of, right down to the what do you do if it's raining outside? That's the level of granularity these guys get into because ultimately it's, it's reputational risk. Like these are tier one public institutions and their clients trust them tremendously. So Wisdom Tree and others have to go through a significant amount of DD if they're to launch a new asset. And like, I'm incredibly proud. I've worked with kind of the Wisdom Tree team there. They're fantastic at what they do and they definitely kept us on our toes. They asked incredibly intelligent questions and just to be able to work with them and see how they think about launching a product was incredibly interesting. So the Wisdom Tree product is the first Lido State ETP globally. It was also the first product to be 100% staked. So again the context of that would be most of where all of the other natively staked ETH ETPs in Europe they're typically only staked between 50 and 60% percent and the reason for that is they keep a proportion liquid for redemptions when people want to get out of our position. But because stake deep is so liquid, you're actually able to offer 100% state product, which is far better if you're an investor because instead of you only getting half the rewards rate with Lido and the Wisdom Tree product, you're able to get the full 3%, let's say staking rewards. Right.
- [25:00]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
I think about 25% of Ethereum is staked right now at the time of us making this. Would you expect that number to go up as institutions get more involved? Because from my viewpoint, again, like we've talked about, institutions tend to have more of a longer term mindset and approach to this. You know, they're going to keep some on hand for redemptions and, and other things like that. But I would imagine that as more of these asset managers and banks and whoever get in and they want to offer staked eth, you would imagine that that probably attracts a more long term investor as opposed to a shorter term trader. And so if that's the case, then you would have to think that the amount of staked Ethereum in terms of overall percent would likely go up. And I think that that would be a net positive for the whole Ether ecosystem. But I don't know, am I looking at that the right way?
- [25:54]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
I think you're right. Like my view is like there's no reason to keep on state ethics like you should be staking it. It is the risk free rate and we have again, a ton of clients, they view that the exact same way. Like why would you get into an ETP or any type of fund where 20, 40, 50%, whatever it may be, is left unstaked? Because ultimately that's affecting the rewards that you're getting. Like, it's very easy for me to put two products in front of a client and say one will give you the full 3% staking rewards rate, the other will give you 1.5. Which are you realistically going to choose, especially if the other product is heavily diversified.
- [26:31]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
Yeah. Well, Keane, we really appreciate your time here. Thank you for speaking with us and going through all this. If people want to learn more about what you're doing at Lido, they want to get involved in liquid staking. Or maybe they just want to follow either yourself or Lido on the journey. Where can they find you at?
- [26:48]
Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
Sure. So if people want to reach out to me, it's keen Gobert on LinkedIn and that keen KeenGilbert on X& then from Lido, you can find that on Lido Fi on the website and all the social links will be there.
- [26:59]
Brandon (Host of Crypto 101 Podcast)
Perfect. Well, Keen, thank you for joining us. We appreciate your time and man, we'll have to have you back soon as things progress.
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Keane Gilbert (Guest, Head of Institutional Relations for Lido)
Thanks so much.
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