Live from CrimeCon 2024 with Payne Lindsey, Dennis Cooper, and Liam Luxon

Summary

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Culpable Podcast: Live from CrimeCon 2024

Guests: Payne Lindsey (Up and Vanished), Dennis Cooper (Culpable), Liam Luxon (Status Untraced)
Date: June 26, 2024
Host: John Street (Tenderfoot TV)

Main Theme – Exploring True Crime Storytelling and Authenticity

This live episode brings together leading first-time true crime podcast creators to discuss what drives them to investigate unresolved cases, their creative journeys, challenges with moral responsibility, and how they define “success” in the genre. Drawing from their personal experiences launching chart-topping podcasts—Up and Vanished, Culpable, and Status Untraced—the conversation delves into motivation, methodology, emotional toll, and the evolving impact of their work.

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1. Opening & Setting the Scene (01:53–03:21)

• The panel gathers at the Gaylord Opryland during CrimeCon 2024, reflecting on the surreal, almost biodome-like atmosphere of the venue.
  • Payne Lindsey: “It reminds me of [Biodome] where it's a pretend outside and for a moment, the illusion can trick you… There's a waterfall. But I don't think you can spend more than three days in here without completely losing your mind.” (02:13)

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2. Introducing the Podcasters & Their Projects (03:21–05:18)

• Liam Luxon introduces Status Untraced—the story of missing survivalist Justin Alexander Shetler, the investigation into his suspicious disappearance, and the convictions and complications that ensued.

  • “He was an extremely trained survivalist. One of the last things he ever said was, ‘I should be back mid September. If I'm not back by then, don't come looking for me.’ And then disappeared soon afterwards.” (03:33)

• Dennis Cooper gives background on Culpable: Season one covers Christian Andreacchio’s suspicious death, season two investigates Brittany Stykes’ roadside homicide, and current efforts are focused on one-episode case reviews with a forthcoming Season 3.

  • “I've always been into true crime. My parents were both into it. So it was always on the TV growing up.” (08:55)

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3. Entry into True Crime and Personal Motivations (05:18–10:27)

• Payne Lindsey describes fascination with “unsolved mysteries” as a kid, being driven by the need to know “who the hell did it,” and emphasizes curiosity as the main motivator.

  • “It's always been about solving a mystery and telling that story… you get this little curiosity bug in your brain going.” (05:31)
  • “I think people are curious. They want to know why people do fucked up shit and they want to learn from it. And it's okay to have a little bit of a morbid curiosity.” (07:51)

• Liam Luxon relates his drive to the personal resonance he felt with Justin’s adventurous life—the subject of Status Untraced.

  • “I'd always aspired to do things like that… so to me, it was kind of like that childhood hero that I grew up wanting to be.” (08:28)

• Dennis Cooper: True crime as a constant backdrop at home, fed by family interests, though he didn’t anticipate a career in it.

  • “You find that story and your heart's just in it… you just want to get answers.” (09:18)

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4. Choosing Podcasting as the Medium (10:27–16:49)

• Payne Lindsey recounts discovering Serial while broke and craving to tell real, engaging stories with minimal resources—choosing podcasting over film for its accessibility and personal impact.

  • “I never imagined how enthralled and compelled I could be by an audio show the way that Serial season one did for me.” (11:18)
  • “I just had the crazy idea… I'm going to go find a case in my home state and go put together a true crime podcast about it.” (11:47)

• Liam Luxon reflects on audio’s immersive quality and its circumstantial accessibility:

  • “Audio only allows you to… put yourself in [the listener’s] head so they're in the same adventure as you are… you're kind of there with them.” (13:34)

• Dennis Cooper sees podcasting as more “feasible” than film. He credits Up and Vanished and Serial as inspirations, describing how their amateur yet passionate approach encouraged him to take the leap.

  • “I probably don't make Culpable unless I listen to Up and Vanished.” (15:56)

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5. Authenticity, Amateurism, and Listener Connection (17:51–23:20)

• Payne Lindsey highlights the intimacy of true crime podcasts—listeners feel like they know the host, fostering unique trust and engagement.

  • “You start to follow along… I felt that way with Sarah Koenig. I don’t know her, but if I ever met her, I’d be like, oh my God… I feel like I know you.” (18:15)
  • “I just kind of leaned more into, you know, peeling the curtain back… I don’t have the credentials. Maybe that's what's kind of interesting about this.” (19:29)

• The panel resonates with the power of relatable, non-expert creators in podcasting, citing Don’t Fuck with Cats as proof that “none of them had any business doing that,” but nevertheless found something unique. (21:02)

• Authenticity and self-doubt—how jumping in with genuine intent, even feeling unqualified, can foster meaningful work.

  • Dennis Cooper: “I shouldn’t have been the one doing it. Right. But I found something I loved… Most fun I’ve ever had doing work… most meaning that I’ve put into work.” (22:35)

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6. Challenges: What Keeps Them Up at Night (23:33–28:37)

• Payne Lindsey: The hardest part is the emotional/psychological side: understanding human nature, getting people to open up (“How do I bypass the obvious ‘fuck you, I don’t want to talk to you’?”), and maintaining a drive to truly find answers, not just retell tragedy.

  • “If I ever feel like that’s all I can do, then I’m probably out.” (25:08)
  • “I want to have a pulse and a thumb on the persons of interest, because most of the time… that’s what police haven’t been doing.” (25:09)

• Liam Luxon: Balancing thoroughness and sensitivity—honoring Justin’s legacy and striving to be accurate weighs constantly.

  • “Was finding a way to accurately tell the story and the findings while also honoring Justin's legacy… that for me was the thing that I constantly was thinking about.” (26:15)

• Dennis Cooper: Self-critique and learning curve (‘I should’ve asked that earlier,’ ‘did I sound like an idiot?’), but less anxiety now as experience, team support, and confidence grow.

  • “Compared to making season one, I didn’t know what the fuck I was doing. I didn’t have the resources I have now. Like, I probably shaved years off my life working season one.” (28:17)

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7. Moral Compass and Responsibility (29:04–35:15)

• Payne Lindsey: The anchor for ethical decisions is the victim’s family—if they feel okay about the podcaster’s approach and actions, that guides his sense of right and wrong. Staying transparent and prioritizing the family's pursuit of answers above all.

  • “There's a family out there who either doesn't know what happened to their loved one… As long as I’m not breaking any laws and they feel okay about what I'm doing, then… all the other stuff I add is just my own 2 cents and my own opinion and my own moral compass.” (29:16)
  • “If they’re upset with me, I probably did something wrong.” (29:54)

• Liam Luxon & Dennis Cooper: Echo prioritizing the family and the victim—dedicating themselves to finding answers the family lacks.

  • Luxon: “That to me, that's the… contract that we sign with them… we're going to put… everything we can into figuring out what you haven't been able to figure out yet.” (31:21)
  • Cooper: “None of us can truly put ourselves in their shoes. But we can do our best and be compassionate… That's always been at the center of what I wanted to do.” (32:31)

• The importance of listening to whomever becomes the “family,” since different relatives/friends may be the truth’s main seeker.

  • Payne Lindsey: “Family doesn't necessarily have to definitively mean mom and dad. Sometimes it’s a cousin, sister, best friend… whoever that person is in their life or persons and aligning with that.” (34:09)

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8. Balancing Compassion with Investigation (Listening to Grief) (37:39–42:25)

• The podcasters stress the importance of deep listening to families’ grief—not rushing into interrogation but building understanding and trust.

  • Payne Lindsey: “They’re sharing their emotions and you’re just listening… I’m not necessarily there to console them. I’m there to listen and understand so I can take that information.” (38:08)
  • “I think that is really at the core, that's it… it's not the Payne Lindsay show. It's, like, holy shit, this person is unpacking traumatic events. And I'm just here… listening.” (39:48)

• Liam Luxon: True understanding takes time and many conversations; only after several talks did he approach the actual disappearance details in Status Untraced.

  • “It's not one conversation. It's many conversations… we had done a lot… before we ever really got into… the specifics of Justin's disappearance.” (40:13)

• Dennis Cooper: Echoes listening and time investment; families often open up over time, revealing harder truths only after trust is built.

  • “Ideally, I'd like to shed a tear with them at some point.” (41:27)

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9. Defining Success as a Creator (43:39–48:58)

• Payne Lindsey: Success is self-defined and changes over time; fulfillment now comes from the creative freedom to chase stories his own way, regardless of downloads/rankings.

  • “The benchmark for success in really anything is what you determine it to be… Being able to keep pushing myself… that's the dream.” (43:39)

• Liam Luxon: Emotional impact on the victim’s family and inspiring listeners—he recalls when Justin’s father and friend reached out in tears of appreciation.

  • “The dad and one of the best… friends had binged the whole show and called me… happy tears, sad tears. That, to me, was the most… point of the show.” (47:01)
  • “I hope other people will end up finding the same thing, because I think Justin… his goal was to leave people and to inspire people… I hope that translates.” (48:12)

• Dennis Cooper: After years of unfulfilling jobs, simply doing meaningful work that matters is his current benchmark.

  • “I did work that I did not like doing for 15 years of my life. So to be able to, like, do this as my work… that's my benchmark.” (48:16)

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Notable Quotes & Moments:

• Payne Lindsey (On podcasting): "You know, there's a more personal side of… I'm listening to this person talk about whatever this unsolved crime into my ears and you start to follow along…" (18:15)
• Dennis Cooper (On authenticity): "None of my career up to that point was anything remotely close to that field… but I found something I loved." (22:35)
• Liam Luxon (On focus): "Constantly, like, I would go to… bed [asking] am I doing a good job of that always. Because I think that for me was the thing that I constantly was thinking about." (26:15)
• Payne Lindsey (On family focus): "As long as I'm not breaking any laws and they feel okay about what I'm doing, then… all the other stuff I add is just my own 2 cents." (29:16)
• Dennis Cooper (On growth): "Now where I'm at, like, it's just so much more of a breeze… I've matured into the role." (28:37)
• Payne Lindsey (On success): "Your benchmark for success is a thing that you create for yourself that can evolve over time." (43:39)
• Liam Luxon (On emotional feedback): "The dad and one of [Justin’s] best friends… called me and were like… happy tears, sad tears… that was the point of the show." (47:01)

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Episode Timestamps for Key Segments

• Venue, Conference Banter: 01:53–03:21
• Podcaster & Show Introductions: 03:21–05:18
• Why True Crime? Personal Journeys: 05:18–10:27
• Why Podcasting vs. Film: 10:27–16:49
• Authenticity & Breaking In: 17:51–23:20
• What Keeps You Up at Night?: 23:33–28:37
• Moral Compass & Responsibility: 29:04–35:15
• Listening to Grief, Building Trust: 37:39–42:25
• Defining Success: 43:39–48:58

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Takeaways

This conversation reveals the humanity behind true crime podcasting: relentless curiosity, learning by doing, a deep sense of responsibility to victims’ families, and an evolving definition of success grounded not in stats but in meaning and impact.

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For new listeners, this discussion is an intimate portrait of what drives leading true crime podcasters—and why their stories resonate far beyond the mystery itself.

Transcript

[Amazon Prime Narrator]

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[John Street]

Hey, listeners. John street here from the Tenderfoot team. As you may know, many at Tenderfoot's shows have topped the charts over the years. Actually, we've had over a dozen number one shows since we started back in 2016. And that's thanks to you, our listeners. But have you ever wondered what it takes to make a successful podcast or what the journey's like for creators? Sometimes shows start slow and steady, then next thing you know, they're reaching millions of listeners, making a real difference. And often they gained momentum overnight. So what's the secret? Is it hard work? Sheer luck? Maybe some of both. Well, our team recently attended CrimeCon 2024 in Nashville, and I sat down with Payne Lindsay of Up and Vanished, Dennis Cooper of Culpable, and Liam Luxon of Status Untraced. And they talked about their experience as first time hosts who created a number one show. And what they share might surprise you. Enjoy the conversation.

[Payne Lindsay]

Okay, we made it.

[Liam Luxon]

We did.

[Dennis Cooper]

We did.

[John Street]

We're here. Thanks for doing this, guys.

[Payne Lindsay]

Hey, we have our die hard fans here. Thank you.

[Liam Luxon]

Thank you for joining us.

[John Street]

We are at a place unlike anything else I've ever been to, the Gaylord Opryland. Like, first, I want to get everybody's thoughts on this place. It's a very unique venue. Yeah, thoughts.

[Payne Lindsay]

Have you ever seen the movie Biodome?

[Dennis Cooper]

Yes, I have.

[Payne Lindsay]

It reminds me of that where it's a pretend outside and for a moment, the illusion can trick you. And then like in a brief moment later, you're like, holy shit, I'm actually inside. Then you have this weird panic and then you're like, wait, it's still cool. There's a waterfall. But I don't Think you can spend more than three days in here without completely losing your mind? No, other than that, it's beautiful. They did a great job.

[John Street]

So we're here at Crimecon. Payne, have you been to every crime con?

[Payne Lindsay]

Maybe. It definitely feels like I have. Okay, I'll just go ahead and say yes to that.

[John Street]

All right. Hard yes from pain.

[Payne Lindsay]

I went to the first one. I know that.

[John Street]

Okay. Which was where?

[Payne Lindsay]

It was in Indianapolis.

[John Street]

Okay.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yep.

[John Street]

And the second one was here. Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

I have. I have no idea.

[John Street]

We've definitely had a crime.

[Payne Lindsay]

They all kind of blur together with, like, other, like, conferences in between. I'm like, was that. Was that Crimecon? Was that another thing? I don't know. But I've definitely been here before for Crimecon, I believe. Right, Mike? Right. Yeah.

[Dennis Cooper]

18.

[Payne Lindsay]

So now it feels just like a deja vu thing. Yeah, it really does.

[John Street]

All right, so we're here to talk about number one show. So obviously each of you have a different show that you've kind of pioneered, created pain. Everybody knows pain. Liam, why don't you take a second to introduce yourself in the show?

[Liam Luxon]

Sure, yeah. So my name's Liam Luxon. My show is called Status Untraced. It's about a nomadic traveler who went missing under extremely suspicious circumstances in India. He wasn't just like a nomadic traveler, though. He was an extremely trained survivalist. One of the last things he ever said was, I should be back mid September. If I'm not back by then, don't come looking for me. And then disappeared soon afterwards. Like you could call him. The lead suspect was arrested and three weeks. Spent three weeks in jail, and about three days before he was released, was found hanging in his jail cell. And that was. Yeah, that's kind of. That's the baseline of the story, but.

[Payne Lindsay]

There'S a 10 episode series on it called Status Untraced, which is out now.

[Liam Luxon]

And took four years to make.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, took four years to make. And it's incredible. And it's a deep dive investigative story, and it's his very first podcast, and it actually went number one.

[John Street]

Dennis, what you got?

[Dennis Cooper]

Oh, my intro. Yeah. I'm Dennis Cooper. I'm from Louisville, Kentucky, where I live with my wife and four kids. And in 2019, I got into podcasting and created a podcast called Culpable. We covered the suspicious death of Christian Andreacchio, a 21 year old in Meridian, Mississippi. We did a second season out of small town Brown County, Ohio. We covered the case of a young pregnant mother of one who was killed while driving on the highway headed to her father's birthday. And from there, we've launched our case review series, where we are covering more cases and less episodes. So just doing one episode per case, and then I'm in the middle of working on season three of Colt bowl right now.

[John Street]

So we're here at CrimeCon, an entire conference dedicated to the genre of true crime. So I'm curious from each one of you, how long have you been a true crime fan? Like, what was that journey like for you?

[Payne Lindsay]

For me, I mean, I think the moniker true crime has kind of become something more representative of a larger genre that's existed for a while. I mean, going back to Unsolved Mysteries. I mean, I used to love that as a kid. It scared the shit out of me. But my mom let me watch Unsolved Mysteries, and I've always been fascinated by things that are unsolved, things that we can't explain or figure out. I mean, you could go back to, like, an Agatha Christie book. It's just the suspense of not knowing and just to me, that bothers me. And it gets this little curiosity bug in my brain going. And so for me, it's always been about solving a mystery and telling that story. And so in 2016, when I made up and vanish season one, I took a new approach and I made a podcast where I was going to personally go investigate an unsolved missing person's case, which at the time, I had no real business doing. And that's really ultimately why I'm here. Today was just kind of taking a leap out of my comfort zone. And, you know, for those who don't know me personally or, like, what would maybe drive me, it never really is about the nitty gritty true crime parts of it. It's not about the forensics. It's not about. These are all interesting things to me. But to me, it's about who the hell did it or what, what happened in, like, that part of it drives me. And as I've kind of grown into my shoes a little bit more, I've just tried to push the envelope more there because I feel like it's more authentic to me, and it's what I have more control over. If I. If there's a suspect to a murder case and I know where they live, well, I could go knock on their door. And so that's kind of where I'm at. But true crime is, I think, a little bit different to everybody. But I think at the end of the day, I think that people are curious. They want to Know why people do fucked up shit and they want to learn from it. And it's okay to have a little bit of a morbid curiosity. I think if, if you don't have that, then maybe you're one of the people who is killing people out here.

[Liam Luxon]

I, I agree with that. For, for he's like two shifts. Pretty much all of that is true for me. I've always been really inquisitive. I've been very curious. Status untrace. And the disappearance of Justin Alexander Shetler for me was. Justin himself was so fascinating. He was this guy that gave up everything he owned and already lived all these crazy, adventurous lives of being, you know, crossing the Himalayas and flip flops or becoming a monk or living with indigenous tribes and stuff.

[Payne Lindsay]

And that's unique to you though, right? I mean, because not every true crime story, you. You felt connected to the way he lived his life.

[Liam Luxon]

I, well, in the fact that I had always aspired to do things like that, not that I had done things like that. So to me, it was kind of like that childhood hero that I grew up wanting to be, you know, and the mystery of what happened to him was so fascinating. There were so many different things that were just so odd about his disappearance that I immediately felt like I had to know what happened. I think that's that it was my draw to true crime originally. I guess still is too.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah, I've always been into true crime. As far as I can remember. My parents were both into it. So it was always on the TV growing up.

[Payne Lindsay]

Like Forensic Files and stuff or what?

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah, Forensic Files. They were more like Dateline 2020, you know, those specials when they were on. But a little bit of Forensic Files, Unsolved Mysteries, like you mentioned, one of my favorite shows to this day, I still rewatch them.

[Payne Lindsay]

Oh yeah, we watch.

[Dennis Cooper]

Oh, so good. It's so good. And then when I met my wife, she was an even bigger true crime fan than I was. So then all of a sudden I went from like, watching sports at nighttime to like, we'd fall asleep with like Forensic Files on the tv because, you know, it's just if that's what you want to watch. So it's just I've just always been around and always had an interest, but didn't anticipate doing a podcast about it. But it's like you both hit on, like, you find that story and your heart's just in it and you're just so, you know, you're just so wrapped up in it and just want to get answers. Like, just want to make sense of this, this problem. Like, like Payne said, I think we all have a little bit of a problem solver in us and want to fix injustices and things that we see wrong. So, yeah, you know, doing that was, was really cool because it was something I think I always envisioned was like being a creative and maybe even specifically in the true crime space. But I didn't put in the work to do it. I didn't go to school for it. I didn't like, try to go make.

[Payne Lindsay]

It happen or like, how do you do that? Right?

[Dennis Cooper]

I don't know exactly.

[Liam Luxon]

You just do it. You just do it.

[Dennis Cooper]

Nike, you know. Yeah, but, you know, the stars aligned and here I am.

[John Street]

So I'm curious, like, why. Why podcasting and Payne specifically for you? Well, I guess, Liam, you too, because you both come from more of like a film background. So why. Why is podcasting the platform that you were like, yeah, I'm going to do this and I'm going to take it to podcasting. And I feel like that's the right way.

[Payne Lindsay]

I was at the point in my life and career where I was dead broke and I just finished binging Making a Murderer and the Jinx when they had just came out and like, to this day, they're. They're still landmark, legendary, like premium documentary true crime series. And I just had this like, stupid thought time. I was like, I mean, I couldn't stop thinking about the cases and I was like, how does one, like, become the person who does this? Like, did they just say, hey, I'm going to go do this? How did they even, like, put together the resources to do that at all? And that puzzled me. And so actually I never even said this before, but early on I used to watch ID Channel 2 and there were some shows that, no offense, I thought were pretty trash, but I still watched them and kind of liked them. And I was like, maybe I should email, like some of the producers of this. Not telling them that their show is trash, but more like, hey, you know, can I work on this show? Or how could. I don't know, how could I get involved? No response. And then I was on a road trip with my friend to Louisville actually, and cereal had just came out and the first five episodes of the podcast serial were out. He's like, dude, you gotta listen to this show. And I'm like, okay, what is it? And he's like, this audio show. I was like, man, I don't like audio radio shit. He's like, just trust me. And so we binged it on the way up there, got the episode five. We're there for, like, three days, and then a new one had come out, and we got to binge that on the way back. And then from the rest was just me at my house waiting for Sarah Koenig to upload that last one. And, you know, culmination of events, a few months later, I kind of went back to the drawing board on okay, if I wanted to make a true crime show, what's my entry point? And I was like, you know what? I never imagined how enthralled and compelled I could be by an audio show the way that serial season one did for me. And so it told me that that was possible. Thankfully, I've been like an editor of video stuff for a majority of my life. And so I just had the crazy idea of, you know what? Fuck it, I'm going to go find a case in my home state and go put together a true crime podcast about it. And I don't know what it should sound like. And I'm just gonna make it sound like, I guess whatever I would want to listen to. As someone who didn't like listening to audio shows, Right. And that was just the basic premise. And then that evolved over time, but that's how I got into it.

[Liam Luxon]

And I think something audio only allows you to do, that video doesn't. Cause I think something that Alex and I did a lot when working on Status on Traces, we would constantly go, okay, why is it better as audio than as video? And the thing that we kept on coming back to is, okay, you're most likely doing something when you're listening to a podcast. You're driving, you're working, you're doing something typically. So how can you put that person or put yourself in their head so they're in the same adventure kind of as you are, but you're with it. And the same way that you read a book and sometimes you add context to the pages, I think adding that audio, you get to hear all of these interviews and things like that, but you actually get to feel like you're there with them in a way that you're not watching it on tv. You're kind of there with them. So that was kind of one of the things that made us lean back into it while creating the podcast itself. That's not necessarily why I chose a podcast. I think I chose a podcast because of circumstances, the same way that I fell into doing this in the first place. And so did I. Yeah, exactly. I think it was More circumstantial than just anything else. But I think that there is something to podcasts having a special edge over. Not necessarily edge, but it's in its own medium for a reason, you know, And I think that. I think that there's a true Crime docu series, I think, fit very well into that because you are interviewing people, you are generally trying to solve something, and you can really be drawn in and pulled with that in that way.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah, yeah. There's something, like, attractive about podcasting. Like, it just. It just feels more feasible. I don't come from film, but maybe you all can speak on it. But I just imagine, like, getting into podcasting has to be immensely easier than film. I could be wrong, though.

[Payne Lindsay]

That's also true. That was also one of the reasons. I mean, like, coming from a filmmaking background, I'm like, I don't want to raise money to do this. I went to Best Buy and I Googled, you know, podcast starter pack didn't exist. Seeing them now, I'm just like, lucky bastards. Because there was just not any sort of, you know, guidance online for how to get started. But it turns out it was just very simple. It was just a microphone and something to record into. And I was like, oh, duh. But now they make it all neat and it looks more.

[Dennis Cooper]

That's why. Yeah, it's even. It's even easier to get into it.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right?

[Dennis Cooper]

Probably. But. But, yeah, I think, you know, it's cool for me because honestly, I probably don't make culpable unless I listen to up and Vanish. Like I. I always say, like, I. I'm the same way. I listen to Serial. I still vividly remember binging it. And it got me into it. It was the first, like, oh, this is cool. I didn't even know that they did these types of stories, the ones I'm watching late at night. They do these in audio only. I'm interested in that. That's cool. And then what was it a year later when the first season of up and Vanished came out?

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, about so.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah. And that was. I listened to that and was just enthralled. And to hear somebody who openly as, like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to give this a try. There was. It was encouraging for somebody like me who was even considering that as an idea of, like, hey, maybe I could do this too, actually. And so that was very much a blueprint in a lot of ways and kind of helped jumpstart that idea of, like, I could do Something like this.

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[Liam Luxon]

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[Dennis Cooper]

That's what I said.

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[John Street]

Yeah, Pan. I'm sure you get that feedback a lot from listeners. Like just the connection that people can have with you because you're there. Your mindset is like, I'm diving in, I'm digging in. I want to know. But also I don't want to put on this front that, like, I know exactly what I'm doing because this is my first time. Tell us a little bit more about that. Like, what is that process like for you of like trying something new while also not being like an expert coming into it?

[Payne Lindsay]

If you're watching a movie, a lot of times it's with your friends or your significant other on the couch and you're not both wearing headphones, right? So I think there's, you know, oftentimes I don't know the statistics, but there's a more personal side of, you know, I'm listening to this person talk about whatever this unsolved crime into my ears and you start to follow along. And like, I've done the same thing with other shows. I felt that way with Sarah Koenig. I don't know her, but I bet you if I ever met her, I'd be like, oh my God. You know, I feel like I know you. And she's like, no, you don't. And I'm like, I know, but I think that part of podcasting is special and like, is, especially in the true crime genre, feeling like you're at the edge of the seat or right there with like an investigative journalist who, you know it feels like you're a part of it in a way that you can't really recreate many other places.

[Dennis Cooper]

Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

And so I think that that's. And I didn't even really know that going into making up and vanished. I kind of realized that after making episodes and realizing how they felt and sounded to me and sort of just general feedback, and I just kind of leaned more into, you know, peeling the curtain back and it being okay that I'm. I don't have the credentials. Maybe that's what's kind of interesting about this. You know, this whole thing could bomb, but at least it was authentic. And I really was only making a podcast back then as a stepping stone to try to do something bigger in my mind, like a TV show or a documentary. I didn't think that there was any business or money to be made in podcasting. I thought serial, which is a really cool thing that happened, and that was the end. I'm going to use this as a. Just a blanket blueprint for how I would do a podcast, go do my own, and maybe that's my proof of concept to sell to the. The money guy that, hey, pick me. I want to do it. One of those ID channel shows that I hate.

[John Street]

You know, that I emailed you about.

[Payne Lindsay]

You know that I emailed you about. You never got back to me.

[Liam Luxon]

Yeah, I do. I do think that having it, like, uniquely starting as an amateur and going into it again makes it more relatable. It's just like, have you ever seen Don't Fuck with Cats?

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Liam Luxon]

Like, that, like, was, like, to me, was more relatable, like, because they just started doing, like, none of them had any business doing that. Which then leads to finding something which is unique. I think that's kind of the. Sums up the nature of this industry generally.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

What do you think? Because, you know, I look at cereal and up and vanish. And then it's funny to hear you say that. Like, you were, like, inspired by both of them. Right. And I feel like that's just the natural evolution of. Of how things go, which is. It's. It's cool to hear you say that.

[Dennis Cooper]

Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

But what was it for you, though? Like, I guess just dipping your toe in the water.

[Dennis Cooper]

It was. You hit on something a minute ago that made me think of something you were talking about. Like, once you got into it, like, that perspective changes. And I. I didn't. I didn't know if I would actually enjoy doing it. Like, I just.

[Payne Lindsay]

Sure.

[Dennis Cooper]

It was more like a challenge. Like, I always Say it was on my bucket list. Like, after I listened to Serial was, like, on my bucket list. Right. I was like, I want to do that someday. And like I said, I give a lot of credit to you because listening to you, I mean, Sarah Koenig. Sarah Koenig, like, she's.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Dennis Cooper]

I mean, she's kind of a big deal in this. Yeah. You know, where are you, by the way? She's not here. She probably had better engagements, but. But you, on the other hand, getting into it, we're just an amateur.

[Payne Lindsay]

This guy's just fucking normal.

[Dennis Cooper]

This guy has no idea what he doing.

[Payne Lindsay]

Shit.

[Dennis Cooper]

Like, I don't. I could do better, but.

[Payne Lindsay]

No, I get it, though.

[Dennis Cooper]

But, yeah, it just made it seem like, okay, that's. That's doable. Like, I can definitely do that, but at the same time, I didn't necessarily expect to enjoy doing it because none of my career up to that point was anything remotely close to that field. I mean, I worked in, like, healthcare and telecommunications. A bunch of random things. Yeah. Yeah. So it didn't really make sense at the same time to even be trying it. Like, I. I shouldn't have been the one doing it. Right. But I found something I loved. You get in the weeds of it, and all of a sudden you realize, like, wait, actually, I'm enjoying this. Like, this is the most fun I've ever had doing work before and the most meaning that I've put into work.

[Payne Lindsay]

There's never a dull moment, right?

[Dennis Cooper]

Never a dull moment.

[Payne Lindsay]

There may be a lot of stressful moments, but it's not dull.

[Dennis Cooper]

It's stressful.

[Liam Luxon]

There's definitely purpose too.

[Dennis Cooper]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

It challenges yourself in ways that maybe you never had before.

[Dennis Cooper]

Right, right.

[Liam Luxon]

That, and then, like, there's a responsibility that you immediately start to feel to the victims, families and finding answers. There's a lot of things that just.

[Payne Lindsay]

Start to, like, force, reflection a little bit too, right?

[Liam Luxon]

Oh, 100%.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

[John Street]

So what are the things that keep you up at night? I guess, as a creator or podcaster, I mean, are they more like process driven? Like, I got an episode, it's coming out in a day, I'm falling behind, I got to get locked into the edit. Or is it more story driven and, like, wrestling internally with, you know, what makes the cut? What, you know, how much do I put into, you know, my own bias or thought process? Like, what are the things that. That are kind of stressing you or keeping you up at night?

[Payne Lindsay]

There's been an evolution of different things that have Done that. But I would say just like, more recently and more, I guess, like, more like six, seven years in the things that bother me the most or keep me up at night, which, you know, it's not always the case, is shit, like, why is this person being like that? Like, why. Why are they talking to me like that? What do I not understand about that from some human nature psychology thing, like. Or, you know, why would this person do this if this is what happened? And how do I bypass the obvious, Fuck you, I don't want to talk to you. How do I get there? Because if I can't figure out a way to do that, then I'm just retelling a horrible tragedy, and I don't have any genuine interest in doing that at all. And so if I ever feel like that's all I can do, then I'm probably out.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

And so that will keep me up at night, and I lead with that. And it opens up all these other doors and so much is out of your control. But, you know, I want to have a pulse and, like, a thumb on the persons of interest. Because most of the time, in any cases I've looked into, that's what the police haven't been doing. So if I'm gonna go cover this and really do it, or if it's gonna sound like that, then I'd rather get better, sleep at night knowing that I really am doing that. And you can think, whatever, if I really am or not, or if you would have done it differently, that's fine. But I go to sleep at night knowing that this shit's fucking hard, and I did all that I could, and I will learn from that and get better the next day. But I really want to find the bad guy, because that's what the family's telling me. They're not thinking that, like, I'm gonna get too scared or, like, uncomfortable at some point and say, sorry, gotta stop here. That's what mine would be.

[Liam Luxon]

I think the thing that I fixated on, I'm just gonna do just status and trace. Cause I have one great example in there. Yeah. I think the thing that I fixated on more than anything else was beyond, like, how are we gonna do this? Cause everything was difficult. Finding, you know, searching in another country is not easy. And getting into another country during COVID was not easy, all of those things. But was finding a way to accurately tell the story and the findings while also honoring Justin's legacy. That was like. I constantly, like, I would go to. I'd be like, am I doing a good job of that always. Because I think that that for me was the thing that I constantly was thinking about. I mean, it's simple and sweet. Honestly.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

Then you answer, that's how I think that's how you do it. You have to, you have to constantly check yourself. You have to remind yourself you don't just like, say like day one, I got it figured out and then day 365, still be in that same mindset.

[Dennis Cooper]

Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

You fucked up. If that's the case, you got to be constantly like, okay, reshaping, re evolving. Look in the mirror. How, what else? How would they perceive this? I mean, you have experience, you have a lot of experience with that.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah. I mean, truthfully, to answer your question, like, not much keeps me up at night these days as far as work goes.

[Payne Lindsay]

But I think the ambience that works, right?

[Dennis Cooper]

No, it's just like you said, you mature into the role, you grow, you learn how to work, life, balance. But there's always going to be those things that kind of nag at you. For me, it's usually more like beating myself up, like, damn, I should ask them that question earlier. Or like, you know, did I sound like an idiot when I said the wrong name earlier? Like really, really stupid stuff like that is honestly what I get hung up on. It's kind of weird. But no, for the most part, like, I enjoy what I do. And now where I'm at, like, it's just so much more of a breeze. It's, it's heavy at times it can be taxing, investing in a case. But like, compared to making season one, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I didn't have the resources I have now. Like, I probably shaved years off my life working season one.

[Liam Luxon]

Oh, 100%, you know.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah. You know, and you probably did too.

[Payne Lindsay]

Absolutely.

[Dennis Cooper]

You took four years to make your show. Yeah. So I can't even imagine four years, bro.

[Payne Lindsay]

You got times in four years sooner.

[Dennis Cooper]

You might have lost 10. Yeah. But no, like now it's, you know, I got a good team, good sports system. I've matured into the role. So, I mean, not truthfully, not a lot keeps me up at night now.

[Payne Lindsay]

But you never forget those things that you felt dumb about, do you?

[Dennis Cooper]

No, no, they, I mean, I've.

[Payne Lindsay]

Because also there's no take backs usually.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

There's no redos.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah. The ambience fix it at night, I think. I think about it all day long though. I'm like, damn, that sounded so stupid. When I said that, they're probably going to hate me.

[Liam Luxon]

Yeah, I think that's just a piece of the rule.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a. Yeah.

[Liam Luxon]

You're never going to be perfect.

[Dennis Cooper]

That's going to be cutting through. You're like, yeah.

[John Street]

So you all are digging into stories that are really hard and can be very dark. So I'm curious, the idea of a moral compass, what does that mean to each one of you, and how do you bring that into your creative process?

[Payne Lindsay]

I mean, if you polled every single person in this building, they'd all give a slightly different answer. Maybe if it's just 0.1% different of what their moral compass is, what their belief system is, what their religion is, you know, what they believe in. Right. And so I think that's person to person for me. The easiest way to always kind of just stay in a straight line is remembering one thing only. There's prongs to it, but one main thing. There's a family out there who either doesn't know what happened to their loved one, knows just this information, or somebody murdered them, and they want to find out what happened. I think as long as I'm not breaking any laws and they feel okay about what I'm doing, then for the most part, generally speaking, all the other stuff I add is just my own 2 cents and my own opinion and my own moral compass. But staying on, that is where I start. If they're upset with me, then I probably did something wrong. Right. And you might think that too. But if I'm leading with that, then we can take the risk that we might need to take to get to the answers. And I mean, usually if a family is at a point in an unsolved, like, case of one of their loved ones and they're willing to. To make a true crime podcast about it, Right. Then they're already at the point where they're willing to take that risk. So I look at that as a responsibility of, like, okay, am I just like one of those trope true crime podcasts? Or am I, or. Or do they actually think that I can help? And what am I going to do to. To prove that to be true? Or how hard am I going to push myself to make it as true as I can within the means of my own control? Right.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah.

[Liam Luxon]

I mean, I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with that. I think it's. It's on top of that, it's finding. It's finding the truth, it's finding whatever you can find or furthering the case as far as you can further, is doing what the family has not been able to do so far, and it's finding a way to go do that. That is. That to me, that's the social construct, like the contract that we sign with them when we. When we start doing a case like this, you know, it's. It's. We're going to put, like, everything we can into figuring out what you haven't been able to figure out yet.

[Payne Lindsay]

And you might not always agree on the same things, which. Which is definitely weird, that something happened. And I'm thinking, like, there's no way. Now, I'm not going to come out bluntly and just say that blindly. Right. But I'm going to consider that more than anyone else's opinion, you know?

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

Because, you know, why do they think that?

[Dennis Cooper]

Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

Is there something to that? And as long as I'm listening and communicating, you know, if any of us are right and get somewhere, then we already forgot about that time where we were confused.

[Dennis Cooper]

Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

The whole thing's confusing. That's why we're here in the first place. Right?

[Dennis Cooper]

Yep. Yep. Yeah. You really can't put it much better than pain did, starting it off, like, definitely keeping the family at the center of it all and their trauma, because none of us can truly put ourselves in their shoes. But we can do our best and we can be compassionate and try to understand who the victim was. And that's always been like, you know, at the center of what, you know, what I wanted to do with culpable was a lot of what started that was a conversation with the mom and just my heart went out for her and everything she'd done for five years, just like, doing everything in her power to try to get justice for her son. And more than anything, even more than justice, just get answers. Like you said, the not having answers. I'm working on a case right now, and John, you're familiar with this, where this girl doesn't even know the victim and is just helping out because every year she'd see at the anniversary this post about this kid that died in her hometown and, you know, flash forward years later, and she has a young child who dies while with a babysitter. It turned out to just be some virus, but for months they didn't have answers to that. And she said, like, that just completely changed her perspective of his case and was like, I want to help this family any way I can. And I was like, heck, I do, too, now that she just said that, like, holy cow. Like, that's that's tough, you know, losing a child. And then that's what puts it into perspective of like, that's what it must feel like, you know, when we didn't have those answers for two months. They haven't had answers for 25 years to their son's death. So. So that was just refreshed on that recently after meeting with them and talking about that. So, yeah, the family's got to be at the center of it all. And obviously even more central is the victim. But.

[Payne Lindsay]

And family can mean a lot though.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yes.

[Payne Lindsay]

Like, family doesn't necessarily have to definitively mean mom and dad. So families are different. Sometimes it's a cousin, it's a sister, it's the best friend, it's the person who is spearheading some sort of. Because it's difficult. Not everyone can do that at the same time. But they're always going to be solely focused on justice for that person. And so you have to learn from them and stay closely tied to that. Because you didn't come out of the womb naturally feeling that way. You can develop that compassion and empathy for the situation, but it could never match what they're feeling. And so, like, just wanted to add that, like, it's whoever that person is in their life or persons and aligning with that because they don't have any other motive other than finding the truth. And if you stick to that, I think that the rest you can navigate. If you're just not a shitty person and you're actually considering what others may be thinking and feeling about what you're doing.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah, yeah.

[Liam Luxon]

The very first in person interview I did for Untraced was with one of Justin's best friends. And I sat down there and we're sitting across the table. And of course, this is the first time in the genre, first time in all of us. And he's like, the not knowing is the hardest part. He's like, if. If I know my friend is dead, it's at least like, I can start mourning. He's like, but if you. But if you don't know, like, am I giving up on him? I don't know. That's still like, it's a piece that just is always constantly running around. So for me, that, that like the answers and finding that is. That's. That is like the. The guy. Like the guy.

[Payne Lindsay]

Which is also like why we just all three said we do this. Yeah, that would be absolutely maddening to not know. Yeah, that would be horrible.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yep.

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[John Street]

So you're sitting down with family who's in the middle of or potentially it's years removed, but they're dealing with a very difficult loss in their life and you're asking difficult questions even if you're not probing necessarily or trying to dig for information. But you're just trying to learn and discover. How do you process their grief and where they're at while also still understanding that you're trying to learn something in your own discovery process. How do you balance those two things?

[Payne Lindsay]

Just listen.

[Liam Luxon]

You took my answer.

[Payne Lindsay]

You could go deeper with more nuance, but they're sharing their emotions and you're just listening. Yeah, you're listening and understanding and you don't forget that. Right? And that's what I do. I just kind of just shut up and once, you know, maybe the tone of the room has changed a little bit. I'll shift it to, you know, a rational, realistic, positive small step that we could all take together that goes in a direction so we don't feel like we're absolutely helpless. That I actually truly believe in. But, you know, I'm not necessarily there to console them. I'm there to listen and understand so I can take that information. They always know that they can call me and I'm always going to listen. But most of the time that's what they want. They want someone to hear them out. That's why they're here. No one believed me. The cops aren't listening. My family's tired of hearing me say this. Well, I'm all ears, right? And I think that is really at the core, that's it. And with every person and situation, there's a lot of nuance to that. But put quite simply, that's what I do is listen. And that's what you should be doing. It's not the Payne Lindsay show. It's like, holy shit, this person is unpacking traumatic events. And I'm just here, I'm here listening.

[Liam Luxon]

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly that. I don't really have anything more to add to that. It's not one conversation. It's many conversations, you know, and like, for me, I didn't end up getting to Justin's like the specifics of Justin's disappearance until like five or six sit down conversations with both of his parents. Like we had, we had done a lot of conversations about who he was understanding Justin before we ever really got into.

[Payne Lindsay]

You were beating around the bush sometimes.

[Liam Luxon]

You had to kind of. But also like, like, like, in a way, but it wasn't necessarily the specifics of. It always comes down to, you know, what is actually there to learn immediately from it. Right. But yeah, it's just, it's listening and understanding and learning who the person is. I mean, and to be honest, the reason I did the show in the first place is because I was fascinated in Justin.

[Payne Lindsay]

And that's authentic. And it's okay to show that. I think that builds trust.

[Liam Luxon]

Yeah. So listen. I think listen is literally the answer to that. This is the only answer I really have.

[Dennis Cooper]

I'm gonna echo that same thing. The only thing I would add is just like investing time. Like, you can't just schedule out one four hour sit down and think, you know what? That one person only knows one detail. I only really need to spend an hour with them. But this is the family, like, so I'm going to go spend four hours with them. Like when I went into this. That's like, the mindset I had was that, like, you know, you could. You just kind of block out time. You talk to them once, and then you go hit the ground and figure out the next thing.

[Payne Lindsay]

It's not work from home, job at a tech company.

[Dennis Cooper]

Right, right. And it was just like, no, like, you. You really got to invest time, one, to understand them, to connect with them on a deeper level. Like, you know, ideally, I'd like to shed a tear with them at some point.

[Payne Lindsay]

Like, I mean, if you left me on red, I'd be upset.

[Dennis Cooper]

Right, right. And that's the thing, like you said, like, the phone's got to be open. You got to be willing to keep the conversation going. Because I've just seen, like, time and time and time again where, you know, families want to protect their kid. Like, they don't want to typically. They don't want to talk about how rough their life was. They want to paint it in a different way. I totally understand that. But the longer you spend with them, the more open, the more trusting they are to. To talk about and get real with you and you worked on a case with me, you know what I'm talking about, where me and we was, like, pulling teeth to, like, get answers out. Like you. That's all you want to say about their life. Like, you're awfully quiet. And then over time, those walls start to come down. You're like, oh, so they were addicted to drugs. That's interesting.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right?

[Dennis Cooper]

Surprised you didn't say that when we first met. Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

I mean, because, yeah, your instinct would be like, that's not how my son died.

[Dennis Cooper]

Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

And it probably wasn't, but. But we need to know everything, right?

[Dennis Cooper]

Yep.

[Payne Lindsay]

And do I trust you enough to tell you that? Right.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah. Yeah. If you're trusting us with this, like, we can only work with what we're getting, you know, so it's not only listening, but also just investing the necessary time and being. Being open to talking to those people. Family or, like you said, friends. I mean, often friends know way more than families.

[Payne Lindsay]

They usually do, actually.

[Dennis Cooper]

Like, so friends are huge, you know, so investing time with, you know, really anybody in the case, even. Even persons of interest, you know, I.

[John Street]

Think it's easy to approach, like, an investigation or like an interview, quote, unquote, as like, a checklist. It's like, these are the people I gotta talk to. These are the things I gotta learn. I'm gonna go in there, I'm gonna ask these questions. Check.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right.

[John Street]

But we've all talked about like the humanity. I think at the end of the day, like that that is what has to drive it is like I'm sitting across from a human being. You know, maybe they are related to the victim, maybe they are somebody who knows something, maybe they're a potential suspect, but at the end of the day they're a human and I have to be able to learn more about what they could potentially be bringing to this story. So you've all had very successful shows from an outside looking in perspective, right? Whether it's ranking, number of millions of downloads, whatever it would be. But I'm curious, from each of you, what would you point to as the benchmark of success?

[Payne Lindsay]

Oh man. So I had to ask myself that. I think I have to often keep asking myself that, right. I think that the benchmark for success in really anything is what you determine it to be. Right. There had been a time where I surpassed what I thought was even possible for a 28 year old inexperienced person playing investigative journalists in a small Georgia town. Right. But then, you know, the creative bone in my body and the childhood dreams part of me was like, well, I'm not done yet. And so I, I had a, like a, another sort of, you know, big like revelatory moment last year when I was making a new podcast that's out now called High Strange. I took a little pivot and I did an eight part series investigating the UFO phenomenon from like a real objective, non tinfoil hat standpoint. And I was sitting there and at my house in like this studio that I have in there and I was playing it and I just, I stopped and I go, wow. I was like, you know what's crazy? This is my favorite place. This moment right here is, is outside of all of the good that comes with telling a true crime story and trying to find out what happened and bring justice. As a creator, this is it. To be able to do this how, however I kind of want to, to a degree and it be my job and be able to keep pushing myself and be allowed to do that. And like as a kid that's that, that was the dream. Like I felt like throughout my whole career as a creator, it's like all I ever was doing was begging people to take a chance on me. Right. And so in that moment I realized that, man, it's not about all of the accolades. Those are cool, those are fun. It's like, was it well received? Did people respond to this? Do you feel re inspired by your own work? So I think your benchmark for Success is a thing that you create for yourself that can evolve over time, and mine's continually evolving. And I think it'll be. It'd be different the next time you ask me, but, you know, just recent recollection that that was the moment I had where I was like, man, I just. I want to be able to keep doing this, like, to be able to go to Alaska, which is not cheap and not easy, and go try to find out what happened to a missing person. That is a. Like, not everyone can do that. That, to me, is fucking cool. And so I'm cool with that. And I'm not going to lose sight of how special that is and how fortunate I am to do that and try not to squander that.

[Liam Luxon]

I think the one I'm hoping still comes, the one that hit immediately wasn't hitting number one. It was like two days after we had released the show. The dad and one of the best, One of his best friends had binged the whole show and called me and were like. We were, like, crying. We were like, learn new things. We were happy tears, sad tears. That, to me, was the most. That was the point of the show, was to make it that way. So I think. And in the future, I'm hoping that other people will. I personally find Justin himself to be inspiring, and I hope other people will end up finding the same thing, because I think Justin, from all the conversations that I had with friends and family, his goal was to leave people and to inspire people to go do what they loved and to just follow that, whatever it is. And I hope that translates the same way it did to me as it does for other people through the show. So that would be a sign of success for me.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, his legacy is alive in the same way that it inspired you. And I can only imagine, as someone who was close to him, that's special because that's what he was all about.

[Liam Luxon]

And I hope that translates. So to me, that's. That's a sign of success.

[Payne Lindsay]

100.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah, like Payne said, it kind of depends on where you're at in career, in life, I guess. But I definitely remember feeling like all those same things, like the accolades, the feedback, the thanks, like that. All mental at the time. But I think, like, where I'm at now, I just look back and I say, like, I did work that I did not like doing for 15 years of my life. So to be able to, like, do this as my work is, like, I. I think that's. That's my benchmark.

[Payne Lindsay]

You don't want to go back.

[Dennis Cooper]

No. No, I wouldn't want to put the tie back on. No, I wouldn't work in any of those jobs now. Are you gonna miss those.

[Payne Lindsay]

Those quarterly meetings?

[Dennis Cooper]

Oh, there was just void of meaning, you know, like.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, purposeless.

[Dennis Cooper]

Yeah, purpose. A machine, not only something you like doing, but something that you feel like it has purpose and you're doing a good work. A service almost in some ways means a lot, so I don't take that for granted.

[John Street]

Special thanks to Dylan Harrington, Mike Rooney and Dayton Cole for support on this episode. If you haven't listened to up and Vanished, Culpable or Status Untraced, go right now in your podcast app and follow the shows. And be sure to follow us on our socials enderfoottv for more information on the latest Tenderfoot shows. Thanks for listening.

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