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- [00:00]
Samantha Yamin
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- [00:56]
Jessica Melati Rivera
It started in Texas this past January. A single measles case. Then another and before long an outbreak. New Mexico followed soon after. And now as we're publishing this episode, the CDC has reported 301 cases across the U.S. an infectious disease we once had under control is back. You're asking what is happening? I know I sure am. And the answer is simple. And then it gets complicated. Today we talk to Jessica Melati Rivera, an infectious disease epidemiologist.
- [01:30]
We don't make decisions based on solely on our outcomes for ourself. That's just not how we exist as a species. So many of the things we do are part of the social contracts that we do to keep each other safe and healthy and protected. And vaccines are part of that. To ignore them is extremely ableist. Nobody needs to be dying, especially from vaccine preventable diseases.
- [01:51]
Jessica has been on the front lines providing clarity during public health crises. She's going to help us make sense of of it all. And then later we'll talk about something completely different. Lab grown diamonds. There's now an alternative to mined diamonds. And these high tech gems have been shaking up the jewelry industry in recent years. If you've ever wondered how they're made, now's your chance to find out. Definitely a rabbit hole I went down when I was ring shopping. I'm Dr. Samantha Yamin and this is Curiosity Weekly from Discovery. Okay, let's talk about baby sea turtles. Did your ears perk up? I mean, of course they did. Who doesn't love baby sea turtles? They're so cute. We've all seen the videos. You know, the tiny baby sea turtles wriggling out of the sand racing towards the waves. It's adorable, but also a little bittersweet. The ocean is so big and daunting, and their odds of survival seem impossibly small. Scientists have been wondering where these little turtles go during the early years. That time of a sea turtle's life has long been a mystery, Even earning the name the lost years, many assumed young turtles simply drifted with ocean currents. But a new study in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B tells a different story. For over a decade from 2011 to 2022, a team from the University of Central Florida captured and tagged 114 juvenile sea turtles before setting them free. It's the largest data set of wild caught last year's sea turtle behav behavior to date. I mean, we've tracked adult sea turtles before, but young turtles make it really tricky. They shed the outer layer of their shells, which means tracking devices tend to fall off. They also had to shrink the detectors down to fit on the smaller turtles bodies. And then they had to make sure each one was tough enough to survive underwater and still be able to send signals to a satellite. Overall, not easy. For this study, researchers used small, lightweight solar powered transmitters. Their solar power allows for extended tracking without relying on the bulky batteries. Since turtles have to breathe, the devices could send data each time they came up for air. The team also tracked some drifting boys to see where they ended up versus the turtles. All this data revealed juvenile sea turtles don't just drift aimlessly in the open ocean like we thought. They actually swim. Like a lot, and they hang out in shallower areas. The team observed directional movement, meaning these little guys are actively choosing where to go go. Sure, it might seem obvious turtles swim, but this discovery has big implications. It shows the Gulf of Mexico is a key habitat. That means conservation efforts can be more targeted and it improves environmental disaster response. Like after the 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil spill, scientists estimated turtle deaths between 55,000 to 159,000. Better tracking means better population estimates and more effective protection strategies. The research doesn't just solve a mystery. It gives us the tools to protect sea turtles. And it makes those adorable baby turtle videos you love getting served even more incredible.
- [05:08]
Samantha Yamin
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- [05:42]
Jessica Melati Rivera
In January 2025, Texas saw the alarming return of measles in the United States. Shortly after, New Mexico also had an outbreak. And as of publishing date of this episode, the CDC reported 301 cases and two deaths. That's higher than the case count for the entire United States in 2024. Before these two deaths in Texas, there hadn't been a death in the US from measles for a decade. Scientists say that in order to control the disease, vaccination rates must remain at a 95%. But in most states, child vaccination rates have recently dropped below that number. This decline in vaccination rates in the US has raised concerns among health officials and it's a serious situation with high emotions. So Jessica Melati Rivera is gonna break it all down for us. She's an infectious disease epidemiologist and she was a critical go to source during the pandemic. Jessica, welcome.
- [06:36]
Thank you so much for having me.
- [06:38]
So I'm wondering if we can start, just to give us a quick explainer of what's actually happening in the body when someone has a measles infection.
- [06:47]
Yeah, you know, measles is what we call the most contagious infectious disease. And the reason why we say that is because it's a disease that if you are around a bunch of people who are susceptible or unvaccinated and you're infected yourself, 9 out of 10 of those people are gonna be infected with measles. That's how contagious it is. And it's a respiratory virus, so it's spread through aerosol droplets. And the really interesting thing about measles is that it can linger in the air for hours, even hours after, after an infected person has passed through. When the virus starts to infect the body, what usually happens is, and typically it happens among kids because kids are the most vulnerable population. What they'll get is a fever and then a very characteristic rash that starts from the head down. They are itchy, very uncomfortable, and then a number of complications can happen after that.
- [07:40]
And why is it so threatening to children? Why are children so vulnerable?
- [07:44]
The reason why children are vulnerable is because they don't have any natural immunity to it. It's why we vaccinate at such young ages. We vaccinate the first. It's a two dose vaccination. The MMR vaccine. The first dose is given between 12 months to 15 months, and then the second dose is given between ages 4 and 6 with the goal of them being fully immunized and protected by the time they enter kindergarten. So we measure vaccination rates on kindergarten vaccination rates. That's when you get those 95% thresholds. It is a disease that can cause severe illness among children. It used to be one of the main killers of kids under five. Just a few years ago. I mean, a few is truly just a few years ago, it used to kill millions of children worldwide every year. I mean, just two years ago, over 100,000 children were killed by measles because they didn't have access to the vaccine. So I'm very passionate about explaining the fact that the mortality of measles is very real. I think a lot of folks have been misled to believe that it's just a rash or just some regular childhood disease. And it's really not.
- [08:42]
Wow. What's going on in West Texas and New Mexico that's resulting in this uptick? Because it's not something we've seen in recent years. Things have been quite stable in the United States with measles.
- [08:54]
Yeah. So measles was technically eliminated from the US in 2000. And when we mean, what we mean by eliminated is that there's no kind of local transmission that's happening. Most of the outbreaks that we've seen in the last 25 years have been from an imported case or from pockets where there is low vaccination rates. And like we were talking about earlier, that herd immunity threshold is very specific. It's 95 or higher. What we're seeing in West Texas and places like New Mexico and even Oklahoma and other states is that the threshold of vaccination has dropped in some cases below 95%, in some cases below 90%. And in some, I mean, there was a. I don't know if you saw recently, but there was a person on the Internet bragging that a school had a vaccination rate of 20, 20%.
- [09:37]
Oh, wow.
- [09:38]
And that creates an extremely vulnerable scenario for kids because like I mentioned, it is such a contagious infectious disease that when you have such low protection, the rate of infection, one person sick with measles can infect between 12 to 18 people each. And it just spreads like wildfire.
- [09:59]
So there are fewer people vaccinating their children because those vaccination rates you're talking about are in kindergarten age kids. Right. So what's going on there? I Hear people talk about, like, measles parties and these kind of alternative things to vaccination. Do we know much about the situation there in particular?
- [10:20]
Yeah, there is an assumption that natural immunity from infection is superior. There is a lot of extremely dangerous misinformation that not only is the infection based immunity better, but that infection is beneficial. None of those things are true. With regard to measles parties. It was speculated that that was happening. I can't confirm that that is happening currently. There were people pushing for it and kind of comparing it very incorrectly to chickenpox, where they're, you know, I'm old enough to remember being sent to school when there was a chickenpox outbreak because we didn't have the varicella vaccine when I was a kid. And so my kids will never know the pain of oatmeal baths and scars that last a lifetime because they've been protected.
- [11:01]
Do we know the transmission currently happening with these outbreaks? Like, is it predominantly amongst unvaccinated children? Is it a mixture?
- [11:09]
It is predominantly among unvaccinated children. It started among children in a very tight knit religious community, actually, which again, is very reminiscent of what happened in 2019 with the Ultra orthodox community in New York where they spend a lot of time together and a lot of community is shared. And so it's not surprising that if a community is so unprotected that an outbreak could emerge.
- [11:34]
And given that the MMR vaccine is 97% effective against measles. I think it's from the CDC website.
- [11:41]
Yeah.
- [11:41]
Is there a risk to those who are vaccinated should the outbreak become more widespread?
- [11:46]
That's a fair question. I mean, no vaccine is 100% effective. 97 is not 100. And there have been cases of measles among people who are vaccinated now, their illness is gonna be much, much milder because they've got immunity from the vaccine. But again, this is why we rely on an imperfect number, but a high number to protect against outbreaks. I mean, we have seen many long periods of time in which there's no measles transmission at 95%. But, yeah, breakthrough infections, if you want to call it, are possible. But for the most part, if you are vaccinated, the worst outcomes are most likely going to be not a risk for that person.
- [12:25]
I got to ask here, because I saw this conversation happening online. If the vaccine is so effective, I've heard people say, well, then why do you care if this other child is vaccinated or not? Like, why does it matter? Like, why do we need herd immunity if you're so well protected? I'm just wondering what your thoughts are there.
- [12:41]
It comes down to a basic misunderstanding, a fundamental misunderstanding of public health. And I think we saw that on full effect during COVID 19. That individualism is incongruent with public health, that we don't make decisions based solely on our outcomes for ourself. That's just not how we exist as a species. So many of the things we do are part of the social contracts that we do to keep each other safe and healthy and protected. It's why we have traffic lights, it's why we have speed bumps, it's why we have seat belts, it's why we have grades at restaurants, to keep food quality at a certain rate so that we don't get sick from foodborne illnesses. These are things that we have, as a society, agreed to do to protect each other. And vaccines are part of that. You know, we've lost the plot a bit on what it means to be healthy. There are people among us who rely on other folks to be vaccinated to protect them as well. There are immunocompromised and medically fragile people who cannot be vaccinated while they're a smaller population. To ignore them is extremely ableist and extremely cruel, in my opinion, because they're looking for folks to understand the altruism behind public health, which is, we're in this together. Nobody needs to be getting severely sick and nobody needs to be dying, especially from vaccine, preventable diseases. Vaccines were intended to protect everybody and vaccines are why everybody is living longer these days. I think we have a lot of fundamental education to reshare with folks that, you know, vaccines are not just for yourself, they really are for the community.
- [14:13]
Yeah, I think that community mindset is missing in a lot of ways in a lot of parts of our society. It's easy to a lot of people feeling isolated and just remembering that, well, we live in a society together. And even just having hospitals overloaded, that's a problem that affects everyone and cascades to so many other conditions. Conditions. And it's harder to exactly measure that because it's a domino's effect. So it just becomes such a bigger problem. Can you tell us a little bit more about how the vaccine against measles works?
- [14:45]
Yeah. So the simple way to describe how a vaccine works is that it's kind of giving your body a cheat code. The MMR vaccine is a live attenuated vaccine, which means that it has weakened virus from measles, mumps and rubella to train your body to recognize those antigens if you are exposed again and to fight it and not succumb to the illness and be overtaken by that disease. Now, you've probably heard folks talk about, like, well, what about boosters? Do we need boosters? You know, for the most part, two doses by the, you know, by the time you're four or five, are enough to protect you for a lifetime, because the vaccine is that good at training your body to remember what these pathogens look like so that you don't get sick from them again. But there are some folks, unlucky folks. I'm one of them, actually. Where your antibodies can wane over time. And, you know, when you're pregnant or if you're a healthcare provider, you get something done called titers. They're checking your titers, which is your antibody levels. And my titers for months had basically disappeared. And because MMR is a live vaccine, they don't give it to pregnant people. So I had to wait until I delivered my child, and an hour later, they were like, lift up your gown and they got me.
- [15:58]
And I know you were all for it.
- [16:00]
You were like, yes, please. Yes, sure. Like, just add something else to, like, cause discomfort, please. You know, But I happily did it because they were thinking about this child, this poor child who came into the world where I could not provide that protection for them, and I should not be a person to potentially expose them to this, to this deadly virus. So, yeah, it's a very effective vaccine, has been around for years. And if you look at the outcomes data for MMR, it's incredible. I mean, truly, 90% of cases in most places that had high vaccination rates just disappeared because the MMR vaccine was that effective.
- [16:40]
Now, I understand you specialize in infodemics. What is an infodemic, and how does that relate to what's currently happening with measles?
- [16:49]
Yeah, I mean, I first learned about infodemology probably, like, 20 years ago. There are a few definitions, but the definition that I feel is most palatable for folks is to think about it as, you know, an epidemic is to epidemiology as an infodemic is to infidemiology. It is an outbreak or a incidence of too much information in the same way that an epidemic is too much disease, too many cases. But an infodemic does not necessarily mean that it's all bad information. It just means too much. And it makes it very difficult for even the most discerning eyes to understand what is true. What is trustworthy, what is correct, what is evidence based. And these are. They create dangerous information ecosystems for us. It makes it very difficult to discern between fact and fiction. And so infodemics are very much a secondary outbreak to epidemics. And you see the coincidence of those. That's actually what I'm going to write my dissertation on, where you have an epidemic and an infodemic comes either at the same time or shortly after because there's just so much information, and it makes it really difficult to understand what to follow and what to believe.
- [18:00]
Okay, so we're gonna go through a quick true or false rapid fire on measles. You ready?
- [18:05]
Yep.
- [18:06]
Okay, question one. The MMR vaccine can cause measles.
- [18:11]
False.
- [18:12]
Hey, the MMR vaccine is effective for life.
- [18:17]
True.
- [18:17]
If you get both doses, Vitamin A can prevent measles.
- [18:22]
False.
- [18:23]
Vitamin C can prevent measles.
- [18:25]
False.
- [18:26]
Vitamin D can prevent measles.
- [18:28]
Also false.
- [18:29]
Okay, seeing a pattern here.
- [18:32]
Yeah.
- [18:32]
And there's a cure for measles.
- [18:35]
False.
- [18:36]
Okay, so in terms of looking for alternatives, really, your vaccine is just the best bet.
- [18:43]
The MMR vaccine is the safest and most effective way to provide protection and immunity for measles.
- [18:50]
Jessica Mladi Rivera is an infectious disease epidemiologist dedicated to making public health information clear and accessible. She was the science communication lead for the Peabody nominated Covid tracking project, and she's a DRPH student at Johns Hopkins. Find her on Instagram Essicamilatti Rivera. Thank you so much, Jess.
- [19:09]
Thank you so much, Sam. This was so fun.
- [19:18]
People have loved diamonds for a long, long time. Like since the days of Alexander the Great. The diamond industry has been going strong. But as it's known to do, science is changing the way we see diamonds. The price, accessibility, sustainability, and creation of these gems has shifted with the popularization of lab grown diamonds. Diamonds symbolize romance, love, and commitment. But that's no accident. The idea of diamonds as a symbol of love stems from a company called De Beers and their clever marketing campaign. See, in the 1940s, after the Great Depression, De Beers needed a boost in diamond sales in a big way. So they coined the phrase diamonds are forever and popularized the tradition of diamond engagement rings. And ooh, it worked. Diamond rings became one of the most well known cultural traditions in North America. But that story no longer holds the same power. Today's consumers are starting to question the values behind it, especially because more ethical and affordable alternatives exist. Market share for lab grown diamonds has tripled in recent years, and according to an industry report, they account for 14% of the total market share of diamond purchases in 2024. So the diamond market has taken quite a turn in the past few years. A large driver for this is lab grown diamonds. Both mined and lab diamonds end up being visually, chemically and physically identical. The main differences are that mined diamonds are billions of years old, and lab grown diamonds are chemically synthesized in a lab in one to four weeks. By the way, you can call them lab grown diamonds or synthetic diamonds and it means the same real diamonds grown in a lab. There are a few methods used to mine diamonds. There's open pit mining, which, like it sounds, is digging a big hole hundreds of meters deep to look for diamond deposits. There's underground mining that's used when the diamond deposits are deeper in the earth than an open pit can get to. And then there's marine mining. Basically, large vessels dredge the bottom of the ocean looking for diamonds hidden in the sediment. With all these methods, there are issues of ecosystem disruption, pollution and potential devastation to the local environment. Not to mention the notoriously exploitative human rights violations and dangerous working conditions in many mines. On the other hand, lab grown diamonds are made by simulating the chemical and geological processes that create diamonds in nature. Now, it isn't easy to grow diamonds. To make a diamond, you need immense pressure and heat that helps carbon stick to a diamond seed and crystallize. There are two ways scientists do this. The first way is called high pressure high temperature process, or hpht. Imagine a tiny seed being planted in a pressure cooker full of molten metal. That's basically what's happening in the HPHD process. HPHD works by taking a carbon starting material like graphite. You melt it down with metals like iron, nickel and cobalt. And then you use heat and pressure to attach it to a small diamond seed, where it can then grow into a synthetic diamond. The other method, chemical vapor deposition, works by heating a chamber filled with gases like carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, causing the carbon to stick to a diamond seed yet again. It's like building a diamond one atom at a time, but inside a futuristic oven using gas instead of molten rock. Lab made diamonds skip the mine, but they don't get off scot free. According to analytics from S and P Global and the International Gem Society, creating diamonds releases three times more greenhouse gases per carat than mining. That's because of all the energy required to simulate those underground heat and pressure conditions. So the economic and cultural battle between lab grown versus mined diamonds continues. And if all of this talk about mining has you curious, check out Gold Rush on Discovery it's not about a diamond mine, but it will give you a firsthand glimpse of what goes on above ground at a gold mine where crews dig deep, literally, for their shot at striking gold. It runs through April 18 for Warner Bros. Discovery Curiosity Weekly is produced by the team at Wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is Teresa Carey, our producer is Chiara Noni, our audio engineer is Nick Karisimi, and head of Production for Wheelhouse DNA is Cassie Berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha Yamin. Thanks for listening. Mazda crafts cars for those who choose to do more, because every day is a chance to explore, to experience, to feel. And in the Mazda CX50 Hybrid, you'll spend less time refueling and more time discovering.