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- [00:00]
Capital One Bank Announcer
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- [01:01]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
I'm here on a job site with Tim, who owns his own electrical contracting business.
- [01:04]
Matt Kaplan
Three employees and two work trucks.
- [01:06]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
Tim traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance. We're positively here where he needs us most.
- [01:12]
Matt Kaplan
They sure are.
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Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
With step by step help on all his insurance needs. All for shockingly low rates.
- [01:17]
Capital One Bank Announcer
Shockingly low, huh?
- [01:19]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
Just a little bit of electrician humor. Do you get it?
- [01:21]
Capital One Bank Announcer
I got it.
- [01:22]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
You know, it feels like we have a real connection.
- [01:25]
Matt Kaplan
All right, I'll stop.
- [01:26]
Capital One Bank Announcer
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- [01:34]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Wasn'T always common knowledge that something as simple as hand washing could help prevent the spread of disease. Just think about it. When Ignaz Semoleis, the Hungarian physician, discovered that hand washing could stop the deadly childbed fever, the medical community pushed back hard. I mean, can you imagine handwashing? To be fair, they were still figuring out germ theory back then. But still, even with this groundbreaking insight, Semmelweis didn't get a ton of support. To understand why this happens, Matt Kaplan is joining us. Kaplan is a writer who explores this story and more in his new book called I Told you Scientists who are Ridiculed, Exiled and Imprisoned for Being Right. We'll also explore why women are more likely to suffer from ibs. Recent research in mice points to a connection with estrogen signaling that could give us some answers. And finally, with Valentine's Day. On the horizon, we'll discuss kissing. I'm Dr. Samantha Amien, and this is Curiosity Weekly. It may not be trending anymore on social media, but hot girls still have ibs. Hundreds of millions around the globe suffer from irritable bowel syndrome. But interestingly, about two thirds of those affected are women. A team of researchers may have found a reason for this gender gap. They discovered that some gut cells become more active when estrogen is present because it increases the pain signals sent to the brain. IBS can cause bloating, diarrhea, and constipation, and it's sometimes linked to what we eat or how stressed we feel. While most of us have experienced these symptoms, occasionally, IBS makes them happen a lot, which you can imagine is incredibly disruptive and debilitating. Now, when we think of our gut, we think digestion, which is totally correct. But what's fascinating is that our gut has its own nervous system. It's got a whole host of its own neurons and signaling molecules, just like the brain. And the brain and gut talk to one another. Pain is always perceived in the brain, but it can start in the gut. A team from the University of California, San Francisco, wanted to figure out how. It's been well known that IBS symptoms often line up with the menstrual cycle, suggesting that hormones like estrogen might play a role. To explore this, the researchers removed the ovaries from female mice to test what would happen without estrogen. The results were telling. Those mice had far less activity in their gut's pain signaling nerves. To mimic the discomfort of bloating, they inflated a small balloon in the mice's colons, and the ovary free ones had less discomfort. Now, initially, the scientists thought this might be because the lack of estrogen quieted down certain cells involved in signaling discomfort. But surprisingly, those specific cells didn't even have estrogen receptors. They did discover estrogen receptors on L cells. Those are important because they release a peptide known as pyy. When the researchers upped the estrogen levels in the mice, those PyY levels also rose. Now, PyY can activate the cells that signal discomfort. And when those are activated, they send pain signals to the brain. This whole process is a bit like a complicated cascade of dominoes. The researchers even removed one part of that chain reaction, the part where PYY tells the other cells to signal discomfort. And they found that the mice experienced less gut pain. If scientists can identify the same pathway in humans, it could suggest changes to diet or inspire new, more targeted medicine.
- [05:07]
Capital One Bank Announcer
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member, FDIC.
- [05:37]
Bombas Slippers Announcer
Studies show that 100% of everybody in the world wants to curl up indoors and do nothing because it's so darn cold out there. That's why many people are turning to Bombas, whose pillowy plush slippers and warm merino wool socks have been said to be the most comfortable in the history of feet. Bomba's products have been found to boost coziness by up to 1 million percent. Okay, enough fake statistics. But could Bomba socks and slippers really be the Cure? Go to bombas.com audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A-Dot.com and use code audio.
- [06:07]
Dr. Samantha Amien
El Programa Nacional de Becas a Serde McDonald's a beneficiado mas de vieiciente. And McDonald's Punto.com Yagonal Hacer Reggie, I.
- [06:39]
Capital One Bank Announcer
Just sold my car online.
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Matt Kaplan
Let's go, Grandpa.
- [06:42]
Capital One Bank Announcer
Wait, you did? Yep, on Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame.
- [06:51]
Bombas Socks Announcer
You don't say.
- [06:52]
Capital One Bank Announcer
Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast.
- [06:55]
Matt Kaplan
Wow.
- [06:56]
Capital One Bank Announcer
Way to go.
- [06:57]
Matt Kaplan
So, about that picture frame.
- [06:58]
Capital One Bank Announcer
Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.
- [07:02]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Five hundred years ago it was Galileo and Copernicus. In the Victorian era, Semmelweis two decades ago. Catalyn Kariko and Drew Weissman. These are scientists who had game changing ideas that are widely accepted today and but were initially met with a ton of backlash even from fellow scientists when Kariko and Weissman eventually won the Nobel Prize in 2023 for their work that laid the foundation for creating the life saving MRNA vaccines. They talked about how that fairy work was consistently rejected from top science journals and they struggled for research funding. Our guest Matt Kaplan is a science correspondent at the Economist and was fascinated by this reality while covering the pandemic. So he decided to look deeper into it. Why was this environment of fear and skepticism, such a pattern throughout history. What can we do so it doesn't stifle innovation? Well, lucky for us, he wrote about his findings in his new book, I Told you, Scientists who were ridiculed, exiled and imprisoned for being right. And he's here with us to discuss these stories and the lessons we can learn from them. Welcome, Matt.
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Matt Kaplan
Hey, thanks for having me on, Samantha.
- [08:20]
Dr. Samantha Amien
I would love to dig in more into some of the past with, with this topic. So what were some of the most surprising historical parallels that you found between scientists, let's say, in the Victorian era and those during the pandemic or more recent times?
- [08:35]
Matt Kaplan
I think by far the most interesting is Joseph Lister. Many of us know who Joseph Lister was, at least if you use mouthwash. Most people are familiar with the term Listerine in the United States. You don't find it so much over here in the uk, which is ironic given that Joseph List lived over here. But Joseph Lister was astounding in that he faced post operative infection as a major hurdle. So most folks won't be aware, but during the early 1800s, a fellow named James Simpson invented anesthetic. And anesthetic absolutely revolutionized surgery. Because up until anesthetic was invented, if you, let's say you went out in the street and got run over by a wagon that was being pulled by five horses, your arm would be crushed, it would become infected, and if they did not chop off your arm, you would die. Because there were no antibiotics, you couldn't treat it. So surgery was the only option. You'd become an amputee, but that was only part of the problem. The main issue was you, your arm would be cut off and you would die of post operative infection. A lot of the time no one understood what that was all about because surgeons were walking around with scalpels that were encrusted with gore and blood, aprons that were covered in tissue of previous patients, because the more gore and blood you had on your apron and on your scalpel, the more experienced you were as a surgeon. And there was no understanding that, hey, that scalpel might be infected with bacteria and you might spread it to people, people who. So anesthetic made surgery more common, which made post operative infection worse. Joseph Lister was absolutely set on trying to defeat postoperative infection. And there was some evidence that living in cities made it more problematic. Amputees in countryside areas didn't tend to die as often as people in cities. And so Lister kind of questioned, well, what's going on there? Is it the smell in the city? Yes, the Thames was an open sewer and people were just left to rot outside of hospitals. I mean, it was bad. And Lister was the one who ultimately worked out that carbolic acid which was being dumped into sewers to disinfect the sewer and get rid of the stench. He used it on his scalpel before surgery and then used it on the patient. He drenched bandages in it and discovered that it effectively made the risk of postoperative infection almost zero. He published on this and he got vigorously attacked by none other than James Simpson, who invented the anesthetic. James Simpson led the charge and convinced scientists all across the United Kingdom to attack Lister as well. The reason? Well, James Simpson didn't say it outright, but we know it. He was working on treating postoperative infection as well. And he had this theory that you could use tiny needles and stick them into the tissue around the surgical site so you could spread out the inflammation and reduce the risk of there being a terrible response that would cause you to die. Nice idea. Completely wrong. But Simpson really wanted to be the guy who defeated post operative infection. And he couldn't stand the notion that Lister would beat him. And therefore that drove him to make this vigorous attack and it led Lister into retreat. I mean, Lister was a quiet man. He was a Quaker. He was very reflective, he was very sincere and not prone to making big public speeches that were going to, you know, battle people out. In a lot of ways, he was like Charles Darwin and that Darwin, you know, shied away from the limelight as much as he could. But Lister did something that some scientists still do today when faced with vigorous attack, and he turned to his students, he just retreated inward. He stayed at his hospital in Scotland and he taught student after student after student. And all of those students, even though the rest of the academic community went, you know, Lister, James Simpson says he's, you know, crooked and got problems and that there's nothing true to what he's saying. But as these students left the hospital and migrated around Britain, slowly but surely over the course of decades, Lister's word got out and ultimately he won the day. But it was. I mean, we're talking about two decades of having to sit in silence as all this stuff was going on. And it didn't need to be that way. Think about all the people who died unnecessarily while Lister was in the midst of all of this.
- [13:28]
Dr. Samantha Amien
And so what's the issue there? Is it the way the ridicule that's received? Is it that kind of, like the psychological aspect and that might Lead scientists to be less likely to come out with bold ideas? Or is it how it gets into the broad media? Like, what's the. Because there's always going to be some debate in the scientific community. And so what's the issue where, like, it becomes a hindrance.
- [13:53]
Matt Kaplan
It is important for us to have the conversation. It is important for us to debate. The problem is when the gloves come off and it becomes personal. I mean, I talk about that in the first chapter of my book and I carry it on throughout. Because in modern science there have been a lot of people who have been destroyed just because their ideas clash with those of people in power. And a character assassination isn't part of the deal. Debate is. So, I mean, you can go to. Okay, let's talk about Oliver Wendell Holmes for a second. Oliver Wendell Holmes was his dad and he was first, very much a doctor. And second, he became a very successful poet. His transition to poetry was largely because he got so vigorously attacked by the scientific community. But he set out to look numerically, using statistics, at a disease called puerperal fever, which is also known as child's bed fever. We don't deal with this very much at all today, but back during the Victorian era, when women gave birth, 1 in 10. Think about this. 1 in 10 would get puerperal fever. And if they got it, they died. I mean, it just. End of story. If you got the disease, you died. And it came in waves. Hospitals would get flooded with patients who would all end up with puerperal fever at the same time. And all of these women and their children would die. It was not given as much attention as diseases like tuberculosis and smallpox because men could die of tuberculosis and smallpox and only women died of. I mean, this is sad, right? But this is the way.
- [15:39]
Dr. Samantha Amien
And it continues.
- [15:40]
Matt Kaplan
Yeah, I mean, we like to think that these are the ways of the Victorian period. But no, no, no, we're still very much in that reality. And because men didn't suffer from puerperal fever, there was a lot less attention. Oliver Wendell Holmes was different. He decided to turn numbers towards propel fever. And he demonstrated pretty quickly that there was a need for obstetricians to wash their hands and think about, about their treatment of patients. Because it turns out, I mean, Wendell Holmes was close. He didn't quite get to it. But a lot of doctors would go to the morgue in the morning. They would handle the patient who had died the day before to try to understand why they had died, and then they would go to the hospital in the afternoon and deliver babies. And a key tactic that doctors use today, and doctors used then is they would palpate to feel, is the baby there yet? Is its umbilical cord around its neck? Oh, its umbilical cord is around its neck. Let's see if we can get that umbilical cord not wrapped around its neck. And all this fiddling inside the uterus with fingernails that have not been properly cleaned would lead to morgue material inside the poor mother. And that morgue material was rife with bacteria from a corpse that would then spread through the uterus and kill the mother and kill the baby. And Wendell Holmes, he published saying, look, I think there are issues with the way in which we're handling patients and we need to clean, clean our hands properly. And Wendell Holmes just got eviscerated by a whole bunch of obstetricians in the United States who said, how dare you? We're gentlemen. How dare you tell us that our hands are dirty. This is insane. And for all of his hard work, Wendell Holmes engaged in full on character assassination and utterly, I mean, they destroyed him in the end. I mean, really sad. And so he had to retreat from medicine, effectively gave up his arguments and ultimately became a poet. And think about that for a second. So he was onto it. He knew what was killing one in 10 women. And I mean, it would be 40 years before anyone would hear it again. And this message would come back from Europe from another doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis, who really cracked the problem and demonstrated that it was morgue material. And he developed a chlorine bath solution that you could use to treat your hands before you go and touch the patient. And for his hard work, he was thrown in the insane asylum in Hungary by his peers. Sorry, insane asylum in Austria by his peers. So, I mean.
- [18:20]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Yeah, so what's, what's interesting to me there is, of course they ended up being right. But there are a lot of cases where people come forth with ideas that aren't right. And the whole reason we have this process of science, which you really celebrate in the book, is to have a rigorous way of evaluating, like what is actually explaining the observations here. Right. So typically the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. So how do you kind of reconcile that balance here that we need to have a high standard? Um, there needs to. The burden of proof needs to be on the person bringing the new claim forward. It needs to go through the rigorous scientific method. But we also don't want to stifle new ideas.
- [19:00]
Matt Kaplan
Yeah. So I Mean, let's take Semmelweiss for a second. So Semmelweis was a Hungarian, very talented obstetrician who ended up working in Vienna. Hungary was a vassal state of Austria at the time under the Habsburgs. And the fact that he was a foreigner in Vienna pose problems from the beginning. There was also the fact that you had a supervisor who believed in the humors, which meant if you had a fever, you needed to be bled because you had too much blood. And Semmelweis was looking at numbers and saying, I ran these calculations, and when we go to the morgue, more people die. So I think we shouldn't be going to the morgue in the morning. And so when you've got one person who is arguing Hippocrates, you know, ancient Greek beliefs about medicine and clashing those with, you know, modern statistics, you've got a problem. But to bring that up to the modern standard, let's talk about Katikariko, who won the Nobel Prize for creating the MRNA vaccine that was used in Covid. Katikariko. Hungarian. Hungarian working in the United States. Hungarian working in the United States on MRNA research that was deemed a dead end by every university, every researcher, and their dog. She kept trying to get funding even. I mean, she knew she was onto something. She could demonstrate that MRNA could create anything within the body and it could be wielded as a vaccine. I mean, this is a big deal. For all of her hard work, she was threatened with deportation by the U.S. department of State back to Hungary, and she was demoted and fired. That's not what science is about.
- [20:38]
Dr. Samantha Amien
What role do you think social media plays in amplifying or even mitigating the fear of backlash among scientists today or, or spreading these ideas that maybe shouldn't be accepted?
- [20:51]
Matt Kaplan
Yeah. So I don't think social media helps science very much at all because it just fuels a lot of really nasty commentary behind between researchers. Now you have scientists on social media, and it allows the gloves to come off more easily. It's so easy to attack people. It's so easy to attack people anonymously. And that, that fuels the contempt, the hatred and the, you know, I say it ridiculed, exiled and imprisoned. It is very easy to be ridiculed and exiled in science now via social media.
- [21:28]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Looking ahead, what lessons do you hope readers will take away from your book in terms of how we approach scientific advancements and discussions?
- [21:36]
Matt Kaplan
Yeah, so I, I fervently believe that we need to be talking about the sausage making more. You know, they say laws and sausages you don't want to know how either of them are made. We should be educated. We need to know. And I think the same goes for science. We need people to understand how this works. And the economist for decades has done a very good job of it. I think in recent years, we've done a less good job of it. We've focused more on AI and a little bit more on wellness and a little bit less on the process. I'd like to see us return to more of that. I think other newspapers really need to step up more and discuss how science operates so that people understand. It's not like a bunch of people sitting in an ivory tower waving their magic wand. Debate is important, debate is healthy, and, and it really, it needs to happen. It's also about getting rid of perverse interests. So the pharmaceutical industry. I write about this in the book on a number of points. The pharmaceutical industry has put pressure on scientists to date to stop them raising safety concerns when a drug is being tested out. And that's because there's a lot of money behind the drug. And if the scientist has testing, has safety concerns, that could slow down the drug, it could derail the drug. There are all kinds of problems, but the pharmaceutical company should not be able to exert pressure on someone who's doing safety testing. That just shouldn't be possible.
- [23:16]
Dr. Samantha Amien
To end on a positive note, how do you think the stories of scientists who faced adversity can inspire today's researchers or innovators?
- [23:27]
Matt Kaplan
You know, the folks who have endured are such people of character. They. I mean, I. I interviewed Katie Carico for this. I've known so many researchers who have really put up with a metric ton of bullshit. And I think. I think it's important for people to know that actually those who ridicule and exile are in the minority. It's like bullies on the playground. Most people are inherently good. Most people really are cheering for science. We're in this together, right? And it's just the odd bully who can stir up the frenzy, who causes the problem, like James Simpson did against Joseph Lister. And if we can all be aware of that, we can come to the aid of people who are being attacked. We have a real interest in making this work. So we need to remember we're all in this for the sake of humanity. And researchers and the general public together can make a really big difference in making science operate better.
- [24:37]
Dr. Samantha Amien
There are always these lone scientists who get pedestaled in the misinformation space for being like, look, everyone's ignoring him and disinformers actually use the same argument of like, look how Galileo was treated, look how the this person was treated to become sycophants for someone who is actually a quack. And so on the one hand it's like we need to be open, but on the other hand there's a reason why we have guardrails. But there's a lot of people who are using this story of the lone scientist who was discredited to bolster quackery.
- [25:15]
Matt Kaplan
There's always going to be that tension, peer review and debate between scientists, well mannered debate, polite debate, polite disagreement. This is the immune system of science. This is how we identify stuff that really doesn't belong and is quackery. And how we identify stuff that really actually deserves its chance to be funded. And is it perfect? Of course not. Of course some stuff is gonna get through, but it's a whole lot better than the alternative. And it's about maintaining that balance between having a too aggressive, too anaphylactic a reaction against everything different and having no immune system at all. It's gotta be balanced.
- [26:07]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Matt Kaplan's book I Told you'd so Scientists who are Ridiculed in, Exiled and Imprisoned for Being Right comes out at the end of February 2026 and you can pre order today. Thanks so much for being on our show, Matt.
- [26:18]
Matt Kaplan
My pleasure. Good to talk to you, Samantha.
- [26:25]
Capital One Bank Announcer
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capitalone.com Bank Capital One, NA Member, FDIC.
- [26:56]
Bombas Slippers Announcer
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- [28:32]
Dr. Samantha Amien
With Valentine's Day coming up, I thought we would explore the hidden science behind kissing. Contrary to popular belief, kissing isn't a universal behavior. More than a decade ago, a study published in American Anthropologists found that less than half of all cultures they surveyed practice lip to lip smoochin in a romantic context. Wow. Honestly. Less than half? 46% in other animals, chimps and bonobos kiss, and so do polar bears, wolves, prairie dogs, and even albatrosses, though with varying degrees of tongue and messiness. You remember those classic song lyrics, you and me baby ate nothing but mammals, so let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel. Shout out to the Discovery Channel. Anyway, a lot of animals often sniff each other, conveying reproductive cues through scents called pheromones. Scientists have linked pheromones to reproduction for decades. In animals, there are clear and practical examples. Think dogs sniffing each other when they first meet, or moths using pheromones to lure mates. But pinning down the human equivalent hasn't always been as clear. One theory is that we may be drawn to potential partners whose scents give us clues about their immune system genes. And choosing the right partner could promote genetic diversity, which has health benefits. Take the infamous Sweaty T shirt study from 1995, for example. That's where researchers had women sniff T shirts that were worn by different men. It showed that in this study, women preferred the scent of men that had different immune genes from them, promoting genetic diversity. The study hints at some kind of chemo signaling, but it doesn't quite fit the classic Pheromone definition. So if smell rules the animal kingdom, where did the lip to lip kiss come from? A lot of people point to a 1500 BCE text from India as the first documented evidence. But a perspective published in the journal Science finds a bunch of overlooked references from Mesopotamia and Egypt that go way back to at least 2500 BCE even if we knew when it started, we're still trying to understand why we even started kissing in the first place. There are a few biological theories behind it. One proposes that humans have an innate desire for lip contact and that links back to when we were babies and breastfeeding. And others link it to a practice called premastication, where mothers would pre chew food and pass it directly to their babies mouths. Which is something we still see in the animal world, even in chimpanzees. But kissing also can have some downsides. It might come with the spread of germs like viruses. Neanderthals in modern humans could have locked lips over 100,000 years ago. And some researchers point to a microbe called Methanobrevibacter auralis as evidence, which has been found in both those species. Because we do share microbes when we kiss. In fact, a study on kissing found that couples start to have similar oral microbiota, more so than strangers. And frequent kissers often have more matching saliva bacteria. Each 10 second kiss can exchange around 80 million bacteria. And there you have it. This Valentine's Day. Just think, the kiss is more than a token of love. It weaves together culture and science, even bacteria, to create a connection that goes beyond affection. So keep those connections strong and smell ya later. For warner bros. Discovery, curiosity weekly is produced by the team at wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is teresa carey. Our producer is chiara noni. Our audio engineer is nick karisimi. And head of production for wheelhouse DNA is cassie berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha yamin. Thanks for listening.
- [32:22]
Capital One Bank Announcer
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- [32:52]
Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
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- [32:56]
Matt Kaplan
Hey, good morning.
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Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
Dale traded up to Geico Commercial Auto IT Insurance for all his business vehicles. We're here where he needs us most.
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Matt Kaplan
Yep, they sure are.
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Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
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Matt Kaplan
It's all right.
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Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
We're so far up here.
- [33:14]
Matt Kaplan
Look at me. Take a deep breath.
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Geico Commercial Auto Insurance Reporter
I'm good. So good.
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Matt Kaplan
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Cara Berry
Hi, I'm Cara Berry, host of Everyone's Business But Mine. Think of me as your new friend and fellow busybody as I talk about everything under the pop culture sun, from the best way to detect a celebrity breakup or pregnancy to recapping your favorite reality TV shows from the Housewives cinematic universe. Welcome to Plathville, Kardashians, and so much more. So check out Everyone's Business But Mine. Airing multiple times a week everywhere you listen to podcasts.
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Matt Kaplan
Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.