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B (8:53)

Of course we need food for survival, but it's so much more than that. Food is a cornerstone of culture. It brings people together. And all it takes is the aroma of your mom's signature dish to be transported back in time to childhood memories. If you've ever tried to brown butter or emulsify the perfect homemade mayo, you know there's both an art and science to cooking up delicious food. To learn more about the science of flavor, our guest is one of the best in the biz. Dr. Arielle Johnson is a leading flavor scientist, co founder of Noma's Fermentation Lab, and author of An Essential Guide to the Science of Taste and how to Use it in the Kitchen. As someone who has cried from biting into the perfect tomato, I am thrilled to welcome you to the show. Ariel.

D (9:35)

Well, I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.

B (9:38)

Now, I know you wrote a whole book on the science of flavor, and in fact, it's built around the five laws of flavor according to science. So how would you summarize the scientific definition of flavor? For someone who hasn't read it yet.

D (9:50)

The first two laws of flavor are the most essential. One is that flavor is molecules. So we use our chemical senses to experience flavor, but also that flavor is taste and smell. So a lot of it, I mean, everyone knows the taste as a part of flavor. We even use the word taste to describe, you know, experiencing the flavor or something. But. But smell plays kind of a Huge hidden role in flavor perception. I think just about everyone underestimates how important smell is. I mean, part of this is there's a well known psychological sort of illusion called the sort of taste smell illusion where when we experience smell during eating, so specifically when food is in our mouth, we're chewing, swallowing, breathing out, our brain takes that smell signal and makes it feel like it's happening on our tongue. So it very much it's like an optical illusion, but it's olfactory illusion. The only way to really experience what that means is to take smell out of the equation and see how different it is. So I mean, for anyone who's had Covid and completely lost their sense of smell and you know, everything like tastes very flat. It doesn't actually taste flat. They're just experiencing flavor minus all of the smell components. So taste on its own and you know, short of infectious disease, you can experience this too by taking like a gummy bear or a jelly bean and chewing on it with your nose held. So you like put your nose shut, which I'm doing right now. Not that anyone can see it.

B (11:28)

We can hear it.

D (11:29)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then you, yeah, chew on a piece of candy and it'll probably taste sweet and sour, but like not particularly identifiable as like a fruit. Then if you let go of your nose, the like the full flavor of the, of the fruit or the candy really like blooms on your tongue. So it literally feels like it's happening in your mouth, but it is actually.

B (11:50)

Technically smell, which is surprising to me because I don't particularly think of gummy bears as fragrant.

D (11:57)

It's true. But there are, there are lots. Yeah, yeah. So anything with a strong flavor basically has a lot of aroma going on.

B (12:06)

And to justify, you know, your love of smell a bit more, we know that smell does do a lot of cool stuff in the brain. You talk about how it's has like a direct access to the brain and how it takes such a big part of the genome. And of course you've also like, I don't know if you have anything more to say about that, like genetically and neuroscientifically it being.

D (12:27)

Yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, I think part of the reason I, I don't know, perhaps over emphasize how interesting smell is is because historically it's been so, I don't know, like hated on. I mean even going back to like, like the ancient Greeks, they would talk about how smell is like the basest and least advanced and like, you know, sort of least honorable of the senses, like the most animalistic and also the like least interesting. And it wasn't till the 90s that that we actually like looked into smell really in depth. So Linda Buck was the scientist who actually found all the genes for smell. And it turned out that there was 400 different genes for smell. So like each gene codes for a different smell receptor. And contrasting that to taste, where we have about like 25 or 30 and the majority of those are actually for sensing bitterness. So smell is like multiple times more complex than taste. And then, yeah, the emotional component of smell is very, very strong. So we sense smell sort of directly with neurons. They actually there's neurons that are like attached to your olfactory bulb inside your brain and actually pass through the bottom of your skull into your nasal cavity. So you have neurons dangling in the air there, which is kind of really.

B (13:56)

Are just dangling through like this mesh.

D (13:58)

It is, yeah, exactly, the cribiform plate.

B (14:02)

One other thing I wanted to ask you about smell. You have a publication where you were studying aroma compounds in Angostura bitters. And I thought that was really interesting because I think it was. Can you tell us more about that? Like, it seems like it was one of the first times that aromatics were being isolated in that way. And why is it so hard to do this type of study on aromas?

D (14:21)

Yeah, so, so with that study, I mean. Well, first of all, there wasn't actually that much work on like cocktails or anything like that before that. But so I'd been doing some other work on like old fashioned style cocktails which incorporate bitters. But then Angostura bitters was a, an interesting, you know, because I had been smelling and tasting it a lot. I'm like, this is very complex. I know that there's a lot of kind of like spice and herb terpenes and molecules like that in here. But the thing with smell is that it is very difficult to predict exactly what something will smell like just from knowing its chemistry. So we can count all the molecules. Fine. We use, you know, gas chromatography, mass spectrometry for that. But just because of the way that our, our smell receptors are set up and that our brain processes that signal, it's not actually till you like smell a whole thing that you can understand like what it will smell like. We were, we were looking at both lavender and then later angostura bitters. And basically the, what happened when you like took certain flavor molecules out and recombined all of the other ones and it was like somewhat unpredictable. Sometimes we'd like take a molecule out and the mixture would smell very different. But then if you smelled that molecule in isolation, it didn't like exactly smell like what was missing. So we think that there's some synergistic effects and kind of like greater than the sum of the parts, things happening when, during. During smell and olfaction.

B (15:59)

Oh, that's so interesting. Like, just to see.

D (16:01)

Yeah.

B (16:02)

The synergy and then something that. It's true, we still use humans as the end detector because.

D (16:07)

Yeah. I mean, which I, which I don't, I don't see as a problem. I mean, it is slow, but, but you know, you don't really know what something smells like until a human smells it.

B (16:17)

Yeah, yeah. And you could see it being useful for not just like mass produced foods, for example, but also like making food for astronau.

D (16:27)

But yeah, no, I mean, studying the effects of processing or sort of like strategically like tailoring how you process foods to make sure that you save certain aromas. We could definitely be more sort of more smart and clever about that with this kind of data.

B (16:47)

Now, we've talked a lot about taste and smell. I'm curious about other senses that go into flavor. For example, texture. It's a lot more touch, but the texture of a food does change your experience and vision. How the food looks also matters, I guess, for more of our perception of the flavor. Can you talk more about how those play into the whole experience, perhaps of eating something?

D (17:10)

So besides taste and smell, we use every other sense. So, you know, vision, hearing and touch in our perception of flavor? I guess I would say touch is probably the most significant just because there are some flavors that they feel like tastes, but they're not tastes, they're not smells. They're actually sensed by touch receptors. So the most famous one would be spiciness, which is. It's not a taste, it's actually literally pain. So there is a very specialized sort of burning heat touch receptor called TRPV1 that is also activated by a molecule called capsaicin that's in chili peppers. There's also similar molecules in black pepper, ginger, et cetera. So, yeah, so when you eat something spicy, you are actually experiencing the sensation of pain. And then there's a few other kind of similar, like touch and temperature receptors. Cinnamon will actually activate kind of a, kind of a warm feeling receptor. And the kind of cooling sensation of mint uses a cold receptor called TRPM8. So, so spicy foods and minty foods won't actually cancel each other out because they use different touch receptors. So you'll just have a very strange flavor experience if you activate TRPM8 and TRPV1 at the same time.

B (18:37)

I'm trying to think if I've ever had anything minty but spicy.

D (18:40)

I guess we gotta try it out.

B (18:42)

But I'm not go for it.

D (18:44)

Well, so that is a question I sometimes get is like, okay, so if spiciness is the feeling of heat and pain, can I cancel it out by tasting something that tastes cold? And no, it will not cancel out. It will just make a very new and strange sensation. But yeah, besides those kind of pain and temperature type sensations, the mouth feel of a food, I know a lot of people hate that word, but that is what we use definitely affects the way we perceive its flavor. Also astringency. So if you drink like a very tannic red wine or chocolate and kind of feel like a rough sandpapery feeling in your mouth, that's also a, a touch related flavor. But I think, I think the thing to keep in mind is that like before we knew anything about chemistry or science or nutrition, so for, you know, hundreds of thousands of years, we, we used our sense of flavor to like try to feed ourselves nice things, but also like keep ourselves alive essentially. So we really like rely on like every possible sensory cue that we can to make sure that we know what we're eating and that it's, that it's good for us. So vision can be a huge part of this. Like the, the color of a food can actually like impact how we, how we perceive it tasting. There's like a famous experiment where if you add green dye to orange juice and let people see the green color, like a substantial, significant number of people actually perceive it as like limeade instead of orange juice because of the color. We actually, when I was in grad school doing sensory analysis, we would run the experiments in these basically isolation booths. So we'd use human subjects, we'd take volunteers, they would sit in these booths. We controlled the color of the light. So we'd use these deep red lights so that you couldn't see the color of anything. They all looked equally dark. And then we'd also use these opaque black wine glasses to serve things so that we'd remove all visual cues because they were actually the way that we use sight. And processing flavor is actually significant enough that it'll throw off the results if you're trying to just look at smell and taste. And then with sound, sound especially affects the way we perceive texture. So there's a couple of famous papers that Charles Spence at Oxford, he's a psychologist, has done where in one, people will eat potato chips and they will like, either amplify or dampen the sound of it. So you'll wear headphones and they'll kind of like reroute the sound to your headphones. And even if you're eating the same chips, whether if they. If they turn it up and especially turn up the kind of high notes, you'll perceive it as more crispy, like physically more crispy than if they turn the sound down. So it'll actually, like, feel and taste staler if the sound doesn't match. They also. They also have an interesting one where they. They had people taste oysters and they would have them listen to either the sound of a farm or the sound of the beach and basically describe whether it tasted more oystery. And the sound of the beach actually made it taste significantly more oystery than the sound of a farm. And that experiment actually became a dish at the restaurant the Fat Duck in England, which is a very important, a progenitor in the field of kind of experimental, avant garde cuisine. So they have a dish where they have oysters and bits of fish and razor clams kind of like sculpted on a plate to look very ocean like. And then they bring you a seashell with an ipod inside of it, and you put the headphones on and it plays the sound of the sea. And the name of the dish is the sound of the sea. I love that. Who said science was born?

B (22:48)

Like, I need to be a participant in those studies rating how oystery something tastes.

D (22:53)

Yeah, it's like, how do I get on that mailing list, you know?

B (22:55)

Yeah, where do I. Sign me up, please. I'll go anywhere. You co founded the fermentation lab at noma. So I have to ask, like, how does a scientist end up at a top restaurant like that? And what are you working on now with them as they pivot to NOMA projects that you're allowed to talk about?

D (23:14)

I did my bachelor's degree at nyu, and while I was there, I kind of fell with this group called the Experimental Cuisine Collective. Yeah. So we'd get together, like once a month and have seminars about the science of cooking. And I was like, great, this is what I want to do. Sign me up. Let's find. Yeah, let's find a program that does this. And it turned out that there were none or there were none in, like 2009. But the UC Davis Agricultural and Environmental chemistry graduate group, when I wrote to them, saying, like, all right, I Want to. I'm a chemist. I want to do, like, real chemistry, but I also want my focus to be gastronomy and cuisine. They were like, you know, we've kind of heard of that. Harold McGee is on our advisory board. So we, like, understand that it's a thing. No one's really doing it here, but if you can figure out a way to, like, we're not going to stop you. Which was, you know, often the most kind of encouragement you're going to get in a new field. So, yeah, one of these other people doing stuff was the Nordic Food Lab, which was a project that NOMA had started a few years before. And so they basically had a houseboat outside of their restaurant that was a, like, science and gastronomy lab. Basically exactly what I wanted to be doing. So, you know, I talked with them. So I'm going to kind of talk my way into coming over for a summer and hanging out with, like, the R and D chefs of the best restaurant in the world was, like, incredible and amazing. And it turned out that there was actually a lot of stuff that I knew that was, like, helpful to them. So, yeah, I actually kind of snuck off during, like, a summer of grad school to work with them and then got two paper. Well, two dissertation chapters out of it, actually. And then when I graduated, it was like, well, like, this has been fun. Do you guys want to, like, take this to the next level? So they ended up hiring me, and I moved to Denmark. Um, so, yeah, I mean, it was really, like, not a. Not a job that anything else I had done could, like, prepare me for and, like, not really something that anyone else did. So there was not, I don't know, there wasn't, like a, like, a clear path or anyone to ask for advice. So we were doing a lot of making it up as we go along. But, you know, I guess when. When people hear gnome, I think they. They. If they're not, like, big foodies, they might know that it, like, has won a bunch of awards. What a lot of people don't necessarily know is that the genesis for all of its creativity was when it was started. NOMA is short for Nordisk Mel, which in Danish means Nordic food. The whole idea being that we're going to start a restaurant and limit ourselves to only Nordic and Scandinavian ingredients, which turns out is incredibly limiting. So there's a super short growing season, and then things like lemons that we might take for granted as, you know, an easy ingredient to get were just completely off the table because they don't grow anywhere in that region. So through that sort of like creative constraint, they had to get very innovative with how they found flavors. So that led to things like trying out, eating insects, foraging a lot of wild foods to get kind of more interesting ingredients, but also fermentation. And I think the reason that chefs have fallen in love with fermentation is that it allows you to like quite literally create new flavors on a molecular level. Fermentation kind of technically speaking, is just the action of microbes on, on food ingredients. So this might be like yeast or lactic acid bacteria or acetic bacteria, but basically what happens is that, that a friendly microbe kind of colonizes an ingredient that we give to it and it will eat the sugars or other components in this and then transform them into other things. Some of them being like lactic acid, which is delicious and tangy. But there's also a lot of kind of small side products of the biochemistry that create interesting aromas as well. So sort of like the, actually the buttery smell of butter comes mostly from lactic acid bacteria. So it's a molecule called diacetyl. And so if you like really want very buttery butter, you either have to like add molecules to it to make it taste buttery or like actually culture the milk before you, before you churn it.

B (27:48)

I'm curious what kind of science based culinary innovations are on the horizon that you're excited about.

D (27:55)

Yeah, well, so I actually just got back from a fermented foods conference at Stanford. Yeah. Please invite me to these. How do I get invited? I'll ask them to put you on the list for the next one. We are understanding so much more about how basically how microbes interact with each other in I guess, simple appearing but technically complex fermentations. So I think commercially a lot of fermentation, especially in like cheese, for example, you'll kind of pasteurize everything and then add one specific culture in to get like a very well defined result. On the other hand, you can do like wild fermentation where you just rely on the microbes on the ingredients or on your hands or in the environment to kick off the fermentation that often ends up being like many more species, much more complex. So for a long time we knew, like, oh, okay, these wild fermentations are more complex than in particular predictable. But yeah, there's a few microbiologists now that really, really care about microbial diversity and flavors. So we're really starting to understand that these wild fermentations aren't just wild and crazy. But there is a lot of very interesting measurable interactions happening. The exciting thing there is that rather than kind of limit complexity to increase predictability, we can understand complexity and make more delicious things things with it.

B (29:34)

Thank you so much for nerding out about the science of one of my favorite things.

D (29:38)

Thank you.

B (29:38)

Food and flavor Dr. Arielle Johnson is a flavor scientist and author of Flavorama. You can find her at Arielle A R I E L L E Johnson on Instagram to keep learning more. Thank you.

D (29:52)

Thank you.

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So let's just get one of everything.

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Yes, Chef.

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C (30:27)

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Ultra processed foods are everywhere, from frozen meals to that healthy breakfast bar. But lately they've come under a lot of scrutiny. Some scientists warn that the factory made staples might be doing more harm than we realize. Defining what ultra processed foods are has been tricky. The term was coined in 2009 by Dr. Carlos Montero, a nutrition and public health researcher at the University of Sao Paulo. That same year, he and his colleagues came up with the Nova system to sort foods into four groups from unprocessed to ultra processed, based on how much industrial modification they undergo. It ranges from Group one, where you have unprocessed or minimally processed foods like Cord Pineapple Group 2, where you have salts, oils, sugars and other culinary ingredients from Whole Foods Group 3 is Processed foods like baked breads or canned fruits and group four is ultra processed foods like candies, soft drinks, nuggets and even vegan cheeses. The NOVA classification has been increasingly used in nutrition research, but at the same time it's faced some criticism regarding its lack of precision. With all that said, it's still seen as a useful, broad tool to look at the impact of food processing. Ultra processed foods have been associated with increased risks of obesity, type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular diseases, as well as anxiety, neurodegeneration and cancer. For example, a large review found strong links between ultra processed food consumption and heart disease, mortality, type 2 diabetes, anxiety and common mental health disorders. Other research points out that these foods are usually high in sugars, salt and unhealthy fats but low in fiber and nutrients. Plus they often contain additives and processing, often to improve flavor or shelf life and that could confound things. Now many of these studies are observational, so factors like lifestyle and socioeconomic status can also influence the results. Results still, the evidence supports cutting back on ultra processed foods for better overall health. Some researchers argue that ultra processed foods may be addictive. A 2023 study found that when participants added a daily high fat high sugar snack to their regular diet for eight weeks, they showed a lower preference for low fat low sugar foods and more activity in reward areas of the brain when they were anticipating their high fat high sugar snacks neck but there was a small brain imaging study from earlier this year that found that dopamine release normally associated with addictive behaviors wasn't quite there, at least after ingesting a milkshake. An alternative explanation is that those energy dense high fat and sugar ultra processed foods may just be causing overeating. That combo's really easy to over consume before feeling full and their low fiber content can disrupt gut microbes that help regulate blood sugar and appetite. It can be hard to know what is ultra processed out there and marketing claims like light or no trans fats can be really misleading since those products might still have more sugar, more salt or more fat than the non processed counterpart. In light of all this, there's a desire amongst some scientists to move towards a more practical classification system categorizing based on nutrition and health impact rather than just how processed something is. And it's not as simple as advice you see online to just avoid things that aren't natural or whole foods. Food is definitely a public health issue where harm reduction really matters. Sometimes having highly processed foods is actually important because it helps to make sure people can access and enjoy foods that might otherwise be hard to include in their diet. For example, think of whole grain bread or yogurt that's been processed. They're designed to keep their nutrients and flavor intact, making it easier to include in your diet. Or how about packaged snacks or instant meals? They may have added sugars, salts or different kinds of fats, but in some settings they help people access calories and food, which can be crucial in areas with limited fresh food available. In correspondence with Nature News, Montero gives a great example. He wrote that if an ultra processed food like a salad dressing makes it easier or more affordable to eat something nourishing and full of fiber like veggies, that can be a positive trade off. The goal isn't to cut out ultra processed foods entirely but to notice when they're crowding out more balanced choices. So you can swap those back in for Warner Bros. Discovery Curiosity Weekly is produced by the team at Wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is Teresa Carey.

D (37:27)

Our producer is Chiara Noni.

B (37:29)

Our audio engineer is is Nick Kimi. And head of production for Wheelhouse DNA is Cassie berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha Yamin. Thanks for listening. Okay, just to be clear, dark chocolate is a vegetable and we fact checked that it is.

D (37:51)

Got to eat six quares of vegetables.

B (37:54)

A day and they can all be doctor I think I'm the healthiest, biggest eater there ever was.

D (38:02)

Last week and I literally like but you're such a good baker.

B (38:05)

I know. I'm so I need to live closer to you.

D (38:09)

I have been going absolutely ham on the leftover because I had to buy so much chocolate on the leftover chocolate chips. And it's like, oh, they're so good in bed at night. Like trouble.

B (38:21)

Who am I?

D (38:22)

This is not. But it's a festival vegetable. It's adequate.

B (38:25)

You're an ingredient household. You snack on the ingredients.

D (38:27)

Yeah.

B (38:28)

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I'm Hannah Berner and I'm also thinking.

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D (40:24)

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