Magic Mushrooms Help Trees Gossip

Summary

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Curiosity Weekly – "Magic Mushrooms Help Trees Gossip"

Host: Dr. Samantha Yammine (“Sam”)
Guest: Dr. Suzanne Simard (forest ecologist & author), Dr. Antonio Usuno Mescato (animal cognition researcher)
Date: March 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode investigates extraordinary new discoveries at the frontiers of ecology and biology. Host Dr. Samantha Yammine explores the secret communication systems in forests—where “magic mushrooms,” or mycorrhizal fungi, help trees “gossip” and share resources. Dr. Suzanne Simard, whose groundbreaking research posited the existence of the “wood wide web,” joins to discuss how forests are super-connected through fungal networks. Also covered is a remarkable study on tool use by a cow in Austria and a breakthrough in cartilage regeneration for osteoarthritis.

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Main Themes

• Secret communications in the natural world: underground fungal networks among trees
• Evolution of scientific acceptance of plant communication
• Kinship, cycles of life and death, and resilience in forests
• Practical implications for forestry and climate resilience
• Intelligence in animals (highlighting cow tool use)
• Promising news in human health: cartilage regeneration

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Animal Intelligence: A Tool-Using Cow

[03:04–06:34]

• Dr. Antonio Usuno Mescato introduces Veronika, a 13-year-old cow in Austria, noted for tool use:
  • Veronika uses brooms and rakes to scratch different parts of her body, even showing preference for different tool ends.
  • “She was using the same tool in different ways depending on her needs. That's a pretty sophisticated form of goal directed and adaptive tool use.” — Dr. Samantha Meen, [04:34]
  • “This might even qualify as the use of a multipurpose tool, something extremely rare in nature. So much that there is only solid evidence of it in chimpanzees.” — Dr. Antonio Usuno Mescato, [04:43]
• Researchers suggest farmed animals may not demonstrate such intelligence simply due to lack of opportunity, not capability.
  • Quote: “Her conditions are perhaps a reminder of what we all might achieve if we get to touch grass now and then.” — Dr. Samantha Meen, [06:34]

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2. The Secret Social Networks of Trees

[08:16–33:42]

The “Wood Wide Web”: Fungal Networks Connect Forests

[09:02–11:12]

• Guest Dr. Suzanne Simard explains mycorrhizal fungi:
  • “Mycorrhizaes are beneficial fungi…they associate with plants by colonizing the root systems of almost all plants in the forest…the association is crucial to the fitness of the fungus and the plant.” — Dr. Simard, [09:21]
  • Plants photosynthesize and share food with fungi, which in exchange gather water & nutrients for the plant, a mutualistic relationship.
  • Fungi interconnect trees, serving as “conduits for the transmission of resources or communication between plants.” — Dr. Simard, [11:12]

Houseplants: Can They Communicate?

[11:12–11:50]

• Mycorrhizal networks can also form in potted plants if they aren’t over-supplied with water/nutrients ([11:18]). If multiple plants are present, they may share networks.

Cultural Impact: Inspiration for "Avatar"

[11:50–13:00]

• James Cameron drew on Dr. Simard’s work for the “Tree of Souls” in Avatar.
  • “Apparently they'd been holding workshops and looking at papers…and this idea resonated with James Cameron…It inspires them.” — Dr. Simard, [12:00]

Science Breakthroughs & Skepticism

[13:00–15:51]

• Dr. Simard discusses the backlash and slow paradigm shift in science:
  • Her 1997 Nature paper was met with skepticism since dominant ecological theory focused on competition, not cooperation.
  • “There was a lot of backlash...scientists said, you know what, this doesn't fit with our idea of how evolution and ecology work, where competition is always viewed as the dominant organizing principle...But honestly, there's been a plethora of scientists all around the world...deepening our knowledge on...these networks and how they work.” — Dr. Simard, [13:22–15:51]

Symbiosis Across All Life and the Limits of Competition

[15:51–19:23]

• Ecosystems operate through a mix of competition and cooperation; both are fundamental.
  • “It's not just competition, it's not just cooperation, it's a whole plethora of different relationships...really what we need to look at is these relationships, the symbiosis relationships, the mutualistic and competitive and cooperative relationships. That is what makes the system work…” — Dr. Simard, [16:04]
  • Trees also communicate through airborne chemical signals (“aromatics”) and can recognize kin, both through soil and air.

Trees Recognize Kin – The Science

[19:23–21:59]

• Trees know which neighbors are their “kin” and may change behavior accordingly.
  • “Through scientific, the Western scientific methodology and publishing of this material, we know...trees and plants can recognize who's related and who's not. And I would say that Indigenous knowledge systems...have known these things for millennia.” — Dr. Simard, [19:53]

Life and Death: Cycles in the Forest

[22:02–26:02]

• Dr. Simard on her new book’s opening: “There is no way to understand how something grows without also understanding how it dies.”
  • “The forest is a connected place. It's also a cyclical place...our lives are intimately intertwined with these cycles...I really wanted to, you know, connect our cycles with the carbon cycle and the water cycles, these big biogeochemical cycles...I think that once we integrate into it and harness its goodness, that we can actually rebalance the earth and get, you know, and deal with climate change…” — Dr. Simard, [22:23–24:45]

Forest Resilience and Human Impact

[26:02–28:42]

• Forests cover 1/3 of Earth, crucial for storing terrestrial carbon, supporting species and freshwater.
• Clear-cut logging destroys carbon stores and biodiversity, undermining resilience against climate threats.

Policy: What If Dr. Simard Ran Global Forestry?

[28:42–31:53]

• Key advice:
  • “The first thing I would do is...leave all the remaining old forests that we have left...the big tall tree ecosystems...we only have 3%...we need to protect those.”
  • Don’t log old growth or primary forests; log sparingly, prioritize local benefits and restoration.
  • “We can actually restore a lot of the vitality, the species, the water system, the carbon cycle. We can do a lot to really mend these forests. I can't just imagine the number of jobs that could be made...of people creating and healing.” — Dr. Simard, [30:11]

The Mother Tree Project

[31:53–33:32]

• An applied research initiative across 900km of forests in BC, seeking ways to protect old trees while allowing selective logging.
  • “The Mother Tree Project has been going on since 2015, and it's a project that covers an area about the size of Denmark...We're trying different ways of protecting old trees while still doing some harvesting...” — Dr. Simard, [32:05]

The “Mother Tree” Name & Cultural Wisdom

[32:48–33:32]

• The term “Mother Tree” is widely resonant but sometimes criticized as unscientific.
  • “People have known the importance of old trees forever...it resonates, and I think that's important.” — Dr. Simard, [32:56]

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3. Science Update: Cartilage Regeneration in Osteoarthritis

[35:43–38:27]

• Promising Stanford study blocks an enzyme (15PGDH) to promote cartilage regrowth in aged mice and human tissue samples, potentially revolutionizing osteoarthritis care.
  • “People previously thought that cartilage regeneration wasn't possible. But this study showed that cartilage can grow back with this enzyme inhibitor.” — Dr. Samantha Meen, [35:43]

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4. Final Message from Austria

[38:27]

• Veronika the cow’s owner gives a heartfelt closing:
  • “You save the nature, then you protect yourself and nature. Diversity is the key to survive on this planet.” — Vitka (cow owner)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On trees “gossiping”:
  “These fungi, it turns out, can also connect plants and trees together…and they can serve as conduits for the transmission of resources or communication between plants.” — Dr. Suzanne Simard, [09:21]

• On kin recognition:
  “We've demonstrated that trees and plants can recognize who's related and who's not...through scientific methodology.” — Dr. Suzanne Simard, [19:53]

• On paradigms in science:
  “There was a lot of backlash...They said, you know what, this doesn't fit with our idea of how evolution and ecology work, where competition is always viewed as the dominant organizing principle...” — Dr. Suzanne Simard, [13:30]

• On hope for forest policy:
  “We can actually restore a lot of the vitality, the species, the water system, the carbon cycle. We can do a lot to really mend these forests. I can't just imagine the number of jobs that could be made of really good, joyful jobs of people creating and healing.” — Dr. Suzanne Simard, [30:31]

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Timestamps At a Glance

• [03:04–06:34] — Tool-using cow, animal intelligence, and what farm conditions hide
• [09:02–11:12] — Mycorrhizal fungi and tree resource sharing
• [11:50–13:00] — Dr. Simard’s influence on "Avatar"
• [13:00–15:51] — Scientific backlash and the shift in ecological thinking
• [16:04–19:23] — Multidimensional relationships: competition, cooperation, and kin recognition
• [22:23–26:02] — Life, death, renewal cycles, and climate action lessons from forests
• [28:42–32:47] — Simard’s ideal forestry policy; The Mother Tree Project
• [35:43–38:27] — New research on cartilage regeneration for osteoarthritis
• [38:27] — Closing message: “Diversity is the key to survive on this planet.”

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Summary Takeaways

• Forests are deeply interconnected by fungal networks (“wood wide web”) allowing trees to share resources and “communicate.”
• These findings challenge old scientific beliefs that only competition drives evolution; cooperation and relationship networks are equally critical.
• Human forestry should protect old growth, respect life/death cycles, support resilience, and learn from Indigenous knowledge.
• Scientific evidence shows even unlikely animals, like cows, may have surprising intelligence if given natural opportunities.
• Exciting biomedical research may transform treatment for osteoarthritis through cartilage regeneration.
• “Diversity is the key to survive on this planet”—the episode’s final, essential message.

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Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

You know, Treebeard, the wise tree in the Lord of the Rings or the disgruntled apple trees in the wizard of Oz.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

We've always imagined trees could talk. But maybe that's exactly the best kept

[Podcast Host]

secret in the natural world.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

That trees actually communicate with one another in ways we're only just beginning to understand. Recent discoveries reveal there's a sophisticated network of fungal threads beneath the forest floor that connects trees and allows them to send messages and resources to one another. We'll talk with Dr. Suzanne Simard on this fascinating topic. And later, researchers recently claimed that they're able to regrow lost cartilage. It could be a major moment for those of us with osteoarthritis, so we'll get into that as well. My name is Dr. Samantha Meen and welcome to Curiosity Weekly. In the quiet Austrian pastures, Dr. Antonio Usuno Mescato, an animal welfare researcher, is studying a new animal that has captivated the scientific community. A pet cow.

[Dr. Antonio Usuno Mescato]

This is Veronika. She's 13 years old and lives in the southern countryside of Austria.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Veronica made headlines in January 2026 for learning to use a tool. It all started about a decade ago when a baker in southern Austria noticed that Veronika was doing something unusual. She was brandishing a stick in her mouth to scratch an itch. Over the years she started doing it with all sorts of objects from brooms to rakes. So Esuna Mascaro and team from the University of Veterinary Medicine, Vienna decided to put the sweet girl to the test. They presented her with a regular deck broom and wanted to see how she'd use it. To determine whether she was using it randomly or with purpose. They recorded 76 instances of Veronica using the tool over multiple sessions. She'd hold the broom in her mouth using her tongue to lift and position it. Then clamped down her teeth for a stable grip so she could get to scratching. And scratch she did using the broom turned backscratcher on the harder to reach lower half of her body. Dr. Antonio Osuno Mascaro also found that she used the tool in multiple ways.

[Dr. Antonio Usuno Mescato]

But then we found something interesting and unexpected. Veronica used each end of the tool in a different way. She preferred to use the blunt stick for the soft skin of her lower body. And she strongly prefer the hard bristles of the broom for her upper back where the skin is thick.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

She was using the same tool in different ways depending on her needs. That's a pretty sophisticated form of goal directed and adaptive tool use.

[Dr. Antonio Usuno Mescato]

This might even qualify as the use of a multi purpose tool, something extremely rare in nature. So much that there is only solid evidence of it in chimpanzees.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

In addition to chimpanzees, another 2026 study out of Johns Hopkins University reported that a type of ape called a bonobo used a cup for play. The bonobo preferred a cup that the scientists would pretend to fill with juice more than a so called empty cup. It's the first case of a non human animal to clearly grasp the concept of make believe. There have also been reports of flexible tool use in hoofed animals, including horses, along with Asian elephants. But Veronica, the cow and the team from Vienna were the first to experimentally verify tool using behavior in cattle. They published their findings in the journal current biology in January 2026, a publication that caught the attention scientists in the field.

[Dr. Antonio Usuno Mescato]

Despite thousands of years since their domestication for labor transport and food production, the cognitive capabilities of cows have only recently begun to attract attention. Our long history of exploiting them has led to their underestimation.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Soona Mescaro told the journal Science that maybe Veronica was grooming herself because of the unique circumstances of her mother's death, leaving her feeling alone and missing being groomed. Jan Langbeen, an applied ethologist at the Research Institute for Farm Animal Biology, had a different reason for why we hadn't seen this behavior before. They suggested in an interview with the Science News team that cows raised in controlled farm environments may not be given the conditions for new skills to flourish. Compared to those raised in open pastures

[Dr. Antonio Usuno Mescato]

like Veronica, Veronica is certainly special, but we don't think she's particularly different to other cows. Her conditions are perhaps a reminder of

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

what we all might achieve if we get to touch grass now and then.

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[Dr. Samantha Meen]

We've all heard the adage everything is

[Podcast Host]

connected a million times, right?

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Well, when it comes to forest ecology, that phrase could not be more true. Some say forests are superorganisms because of their ability to communicate with and depend on each element of the ecosystem. Our guest is a scientist whose research defined how this part of the natural world doesn't compete for resources, it shares them. Dr. Suzanne Simard's work was pivotal in proving the existence of a tree communication system through underground networks of fungal threads, something she called the Wood Wide Web.

[Podcast Host]

She has a new book coming out

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

called when the Forest Renewal and Resilience

[Podcast Host]

in the Natural World.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

I am thrilled to have you join us.

[Podcast Host]

Suzanne, welcome.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Thank you for having me.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

I gotta start by going back to

[Podcast Host]

some of your really early research where

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

you discovered the fungal threads that connect almost every tree in a forest, no matter the species, no matter the age, making up what's called the mycorrhizal system. Can you describe to us how that system works and what kind of communication exists through. Through those pathways?

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Yes, mycorrhizaes are beneficial fungi. In the soil, by and large, they're beneficial. So they associate with plants by colonizing the root systems of almost all plants in the forest. In fact, almost all plants worldwide form these mycorrhizal associations. There's only five families of plants that don't. All of the other ones do. And this association is crucial to the fitness of the fungus and the plant. So what happens is that the plant photosynthesizes or makes food through photosynthesis and passes some of that energy to these fungal partners, who then grow through the soil, the fungal threads, and pick up water and nutrients, and they bring it back and trade it with the plant. So the plant gets some nitrogen and phosphorus and other essential nutrients in order to build proteins and DNA and, you know, all the things that it needs, the tissues in its own to grow and reproduce. And then the fungus, of course, benefits by getting this food that it otherwise cannot get because it doesn't have leaves. And so this is a highly evolved mutualism between the plants and the fungi. And it actually is so old that it allowed plants to actually migrate from the ocean onto the land billions of years ago. So, and then that association enabled plants to evolve to become higher level organisms like trees, which eventually oxygenated our environment. So these fungi, it turns out, can also connect Plants and trees together, and it turns out that they can serve as conduits for the transmission of resources or communication between plants.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Does this also start to happen in houseplants or potted plants?

[Podcast Host]

I'm just thinking of the plants I have in my office.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

What a great. This is such a great question. You know, a lot of plants will. If they don't, if you provide them with all the water and nutrients they need, they'll actually shed their mycorrhizes. They won't associate with the fungi because they just don't need them. You're supplying all the needs of the plant. And so, you know, if you're not, then they will form these fungal associations. And if you have multiple plants in your pot and they're. They need the fungal associations, then they. They could form these networks. If you have a little family of plants in your. In your pot.

[Podcast Host]

I read on your website that apparently James Cameron was inspired by your work to write about the tree in Avatar.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

What can you tell us about that? Because that's pretty similar.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

It's pretty cool. Yeah. So when. When Avatar, the first Avatar came out in the Tree of Souls, was in that book, and that's the great connector to the Na' Vi people. I got a phone call from some anonymous phone call, and they said, did you know this movie's coming out? And did you know that your work is included in this? And I was like, no, I did not know. But apparently they'd been holding workshops and looking at papers and mine and many other scientists as well. And this idea resonated with James Cameron. And since then they've actually made a little documentary film on the concept. And I was included in the film, but I don't think the film ever got released. But yes, it's cool. I think it's fantastic. Right. I mean, it took the science to a broader story. It used, you know, a bit of science fiction, of course, but people get it, and I think that that's a wonderful. That's a wonderful thing. It inspires them.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Now, you first published this, I think, in a nature paper in 97. And my understanding is at the time that was pretty radical and since has only since has become a lot more widely accepted. Can you tell us about what that

[Podcast Host]

journey was like as the person who led that early discovery and then had to sort of chisel away to get it adopted?

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Yeah, I think that one of the things that's important is to understand where I came from and why I did this work. So I grew up in the rainforests of British Columbia. I come from a long ancestry of horse loggers from Quebec, all across Canada. And so I grew up in the rainforest and I knew the forest as this incredibly connected place already. So I had this, you know, I had this deep knowledge in me already. And when I came to the forest industry, I became a forester, you know, in my 20s, and it was very different. It was about clear cut logging and planting trees and not at all how I understood forests worked. And so it led me to do this research and then when it was published in Nature, because it was quite a, you know, when I learned of these connections, it was really sort of, you know, following along with my own worldview of how the forest worked and it came into nature. And there was a lot of backlash, to be honest. There was a lot of positive response, I think by and large that was overwhelmingly the response. But there were a lot of scientists that said, you know what, this doesn't fit with our idea of how evolution and ecology work, where competition is always viewed as like the dominant organizing principle around, around forests and plant communities. And so there was quite a bit of pushback. And to be honest, there still is today. And I kind of think of it as, you know, it's a revelation of how steeped in these scientific fields are in their own ways of seeing things and a reluctance to let go of old paradigms and, and maybe not really unable to really put together whole systems. I was interested in the whole system and these networks made this, they were a really great example of how these systems work as connected places. And that's not really how science, Western science has built itself. It's built itself more on reductionist approaches. And so there was, even today, there's a pushback, there's a conversation going on about even how prevalent are these, how, how, how do they work. But honestly, there's been a plethora of scientists all around the world have become interested in really deepening our knowledge on, on these networks and how they work.

[Podcast Host]

Do you think these symbiotic systems and

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

relationships are also reflected in other ecosystems beyond the forests? And how, how does, how has, how have your findings evolved the way that you think about competition?

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

So first off, you know, Darwin wasn't necessarily wrong. He understood that, you know, that species lived together and they cooperated and they also competed with each other. But we've placed an emphasis on the competition side. And it's not that I've upended any of that evolutionary theory. I have not. All I've done is say, hey, you know, he was Right. That actually these, these are multi, multi dimensional relationships. There's many things going on. It's not just competition, it's not just cooperation, it's a whole plethora of different relationships. And so these, yes, these and these symbioses and relationships are throughout all of our systems. And you know, and they've evolved, they've co evolved together to work together. You know, even we as people, we're a co evolution of all kinds of creatures where we're not just individuals, a consortium of different species in our guts, on our skin. Everything about us is co evolved. And so I think that's another thing that really has become more clear as science has moved along. I feel like we've just touched the surface, honestly. We just barely know. But I think it's important in some ways we don't have to know everything and we can't. But the concept that these are connected relational systems and relational is really important. I think that in Western science we've tended to focus on the parts of the ecosystem, the trees, the soils, the logs and so on. And really what we need to look at is these relationships, the symbiosis relationships, the mutualistic and competitive and cooperative relationships. That is what makes the system work, is how all of these creatures are working together in food chains and food webs, in mycorrhizal networks, in other ways of communicating too. So getting to your question. In forests there are multiple ways of communication going on. And I just looked at one that I thought was really interesting because I was always interested in soils. But other people are looking at ways that trees, for example, communicate through the air. They can send signals through their chemical aromatics through the air and communicate with their neighbors about stresses or if there are maybe an infestation of insects or pathogens that scientists have understood now that they can communicate with each other about those dangers. And then neighbors can respond. They can also communicate through the air about their kinship. And I studied this in communication below ground. But kinship or relationship or relatedness of plants is another important piece of information that trees and plants need to know when they're interacting with their neighbors. If it's kin, for example, that are your offspring, you might behave as a tree differently than if it's a stranger. And so we're discovering that that's the case. So yes, there are multiple modes of communication. Those are just two examples below and above ground.

[Podcast Host]

Those are both very fascinating.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

When you said trees can communicate through

[Podcast Host]

the air, I thought you were going to talk about seeds and acorns and all that. But I didn't realize there are these chemogenic messages or chemical messages they're sending.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

And I also didn't realize that they can recognize kin.

[Podcast Host]

They can recognize relatedness through both the

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

soil or even through the air. That's fascinating.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

I mean, honestly, kinship we've known in animals for a long time, and we focus on our own kinship a lot.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Yeah.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Because we're so human centric that I think that people didn't really look, or they didn't think to look, that plants, or at least I should say in the Western science world, didn't think to look at kinship among trees. And now we, you know, through scientific, the Western scientific methodology and publishing of this material, we know we have demonstrated that. That trees and plants can recognize who's related and who's not. And I would say that Indigenous knowledge systems have, you know, the ones that I have had the honor of working with have known these things for millennia. That there is kinship among plants. In fact, there is kinship among all beings, including people.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

That's very interesting.

[Podcast Host]

Do we just quickly. Do we know the mechanism there? Because in humans there's some immune components to it. But I don't know in plants how they.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

If a root is about to touch

[Podcast Host]

another root, what's it sensing to know it's kin?

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

So the one thing that we looked at. So I had a graduate student, Amanda Asay, and she looked at this in detail in Douglas fir. And we were trying to understand did this communication about relatedness occur through the roots, through the air and so on. And so she did these really elegant experiments of growing Douglas fir with strangers and with kin with mycorrhizal networks or without mycorrhizal networks. And we found that this recognition of kin changed adaptive traits of roots and leaves and stems, and that that was communicated through the root system. And this has been building on the work of Dr. Susan Dudley out of McMaster University in Canada, who was working on other plant species and realized early on that it really was through the roots, through the below ground system, including the mycorrhizes, that that this recognition mechanism occurs. But I think that others have also looked at it. There are messages also influence moving through the air that also are signifying kinship among plants.

[Podcast Host]

That's incredible.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Yeah, it is.

[Podcast Host]

I need to dig into that more. That's very cool. Your new book starts with an absolute banger of a line. You say there is no way to understand how something grows without also understanding how it dies. Mic drop? Yeah. Did you set out. Did you set out to write this book through the lens of death and renewal or.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Yeah, I did. So, you know, the forest is a connected place. It's also a cyclical place. And those cycles are going on in front of us all the time. And I wanted to really help people recall that we are also part of this cycle, that we have cycles of birth, growth, maturation, adulthood, death or decay, Death, decay, and then renewal. And that our lives are intimately intertwined with these cycles in the forest and the big global cycles that affect, you know, that affect us every day and we don't realize it. And I just wanted to bring in this great interwoven majesty of all the cycles of people and nature and that we all belong together. And also to show that it's a good thing, right, that cycles in forests gives it renewal and resilience, and it's the same thing in people. And I think that we've tended to fear death, for example, in our modern society. In fact, you know, we need to honor and respect it. And we have, you know, we do actually, we have all kinds of celebration centered around the cycle of life. I really wanted to, you know, connect our cycles with the carbon cycle and the water cycles, these big biogeochemical cycles, because we have at our peril, you know, in our thinking, we don't belong in these cycles, that we're separate from them. We have created climate change, right? And that is one big cycle that we're all part of that is a renewing cycle. And so I think that once we integrate into it and harness its goodness, that we can actually rebalance the earth and get, you know, and deal with climate change. But until we do that, we are going to continue to make, you know, to make errors and amplify the problem. And I think that too, like in forestry, one of the things that also, as I grew up, you know, understanding that I grew up in old forests, that we've cut down almost all of our old forests, and we cut the elders first, the old trees first, the big old ones, because they're the most valuable on the marketplace and in those elders is the wisdom of the forest. And so I really want people to embrace this, because when you look at how the forest regenerates, it depends on these old trees. If you look at, you know, what people are saying, how we're going to deal with climate change, one of the first things that is recommended is to let forests grow to the great old ages, that they're meant to. That, you know, as they age, they absorb and sequester and store more carbon in their bodies, in the soils. And so they call that proforestation. In the IPCC International Panel on Climate Change reports that that's one of the key things, is just like forest grow and then to restore the ones that have lost their elders and try to get oldness back into these ecosystems. So it is actually an absolutely essential part of our lives that we honor and respect the old. And I think that even in our own human lives, that's really important, that we've also sort of lost track a little bit of that too, to really honor and respect the elders in our communities.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

I wanted to ask you about that, actually, because your book, you talk a

[Podcast Host]

lot about forest resilience in it. And I wanted to hear if there

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

was anything else your research has shown about how forests respond to environmental issues like climate change and logging and species extinction and things that we've learned. I know you touch on it in the book, but as a preview for listeners.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Yeah. So just keeping in mind that forests cover one third of the Earth's surface, or 31%, and yet they store an outsized proportion of the carbon. And, you know, I've seen estimates from, you know, 60% to 80% of terrestrial carbon is in forests. And so what we do in forests is super important with respect to climate change. And, you know, 80% in Canada, 80% of species are in forests, 80% of our freshwater is in forests. So if we're cutting down our forests and we're replacing them with tree farms, we're losing carbon and we're losing species. And those are the two things that we really need to keep in balance. And so one of the things I try to convey in the book is just to demonstrate what, for example, clear cut logging does. Right. It actually depletes the ecosystems of carbon pools. They end up draining through the soils and ending up in estuaries and out in the ocean. We're losing soil organic matter, and that's one of the key storehouses. That's where the mycorrhizal fungi live. That's where the connections are in the forest. And so there's ways that we can adjust our forestry practices still logging. Because we're going to need to, and we always have, but do it in a way that is going to protect the vitality of these places. And I really come back to, again, ancient knowledge systems, indigenous knowledge systems, knowledge systems that come from all of us at some point in our ancestry, which is about connection and being integrated into these natural cycles and not disrupting them for, you know, for narrow goals like, you Know, like greed might be one of those goals, or it might be just like trying to feed an economy that maybe can be done in a different way. Right. We need to be more creative because actually now we're at the point where, at least in British Columbia, that we're as we log the forest and clear cut the forest, we're spending so much money in fighting forest fires and floods, which are a feedback loop from too much clear cut logging, that it's costing us more than we're actually getting from extracting. So anyway, there's a lot of stuff that I just said there, but it's all connected together.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so blue sky question here. If the world suddenly said, suzanne, we're letting you lead our logging and forestry practices, what are the biggest changes you would make to that industry to address some of these things you're talking about?

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Well, I think coming from what I just said, the first thing I would do is I would leave all the remaining old forests that we have left. You know, where I'm from in British Columbia, the big tall tree ecosystems, the valley bottom ecosystems where the trees grow big, we only have 3% of those left, and we need to protect those. You know, they're where the seeds and the spores and the, you know, the knowledge of those systems are, and we just can't afford to lose any more. So that's one thing I would say right away. The second thing is that there's another kind of forest called primary forests, and those are forests that might not be really old, but they've never been logged before through industrial practices. And they have not been disrupted by machines, for example, and short rotations and tree farms. They also contain really important species that are not in these managed systems and carbon pools. So that's another thing, like no logging of old growth forests. Be very careful about the primary forests. And then the third thing I would say is that where we do do some logging, don't take everything, just take a little bit. And then when you do take some wood, be really careful about making fine products that are worth money, that feed the local communities, the local economies, instead of just letting it taking too much, leaving a mess behind, and then letting it, you know, end up in the shareholder pockets that do not live in these places. So it needs to be more local. And I guess the last thing I would say is that we also need to invest in our youth and our communities and getting jobs. And they can do that in going into these forests and restoring the damaged forests. Right. Like they need a lot of work. These forests that have been logged and they're coming back to these plantations. We can actually restore a lot of the vitality, the species, the water system, the carbon cycle. We can do a lot to really mend these forests. I can't just imagine the number of jobs that could be made of really good, joyful jobs of people creating and healing. And then we need to figure out. And I think there are ways of making a cyclical economy that actually values this for the clean water it produces, for the climate stabilization that it produces, for stabilizing slopes and not letting floods happen, for mitigating wildfire. I mean, we can put people to work doing that and restoring forests and creating a healthier environment for everybody. And that's going to require, like, a change in our economic system. But I really believe that there's lots of smart people who are working on this, and we need to really invest in those ideas.

[Podcast Host]

And to your credit, you have the Mother Tree Project, which is working to engage youth and students.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Can you tell us more about the concept of it and the type of work you're doing? Because I think.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Yeah. Thank you. Yes. The Mother Tree Project has been going on since 2015, and it's a project that covers an area about the size of Denmark. It's 900km long. It includes nine research forests across a climate gradient from hot and dry to cold and wet. And the idea is that we're trying different ways of protecting old trees while still doing some harvesting of trees and increasing the fire resistance. I have a dream that we're going to expand this big gradient all the way down through the Douglas fir forest of all of the Americas, all the way down to Patagonia, which would be amazing, and get people integrated in communicating their findings.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

And I really appreciate the name for

[Podcast Host]

the project, despite some of the pushback you've received in calling it Mother Tree, because it's been criticized as, like, not being objective.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

And actually, you know, this idea of mother trees, elder trees, parent trees, grandfather trees, grandmother, it's been around forever. Right. I came to it from a different point of view, from these webs, and that the big old trees were the centers of the webs. But people have known the importance of old trees forever. And so that name, it's not just mine, that's for darn sure. It's been around for a long time. And yes, it's received a lot of criticism from the scientific world, but people get it and it resonates, and I think that's important.

[Podcast Host]

Dr. Simard's new book, when the Forest Breathes Renewal and Resilience in the Natural

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

World is available on March 28, wherever you get your books. Thank you so much for joining us. Suzanne.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

You're welcome. Thank you so much.

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[Vintage Store Shopper]

Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter?

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Right.

[Jennifer]

And the best part? They accept Discover.

[Vintage Store Shopper]

Accept Discover in a little place like this? I don't think so. Jennifer.

[Jennifer]

Oh yeah, huh? Discover's accepted where I like to shop.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Come on baby.

[Jennifer]

Get with the times.

[Vintage Store Shopper]

Right? So we shouldn't get the parachute pan.

[Jennifer]

These are making a comeback, I think.

[Discover Card Announcer]

Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Okay, Peloton, let's go.

[Peloton Announcer]

That's the new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus. Powered by Peloton iq. Built for breakthroughs with real time insights and endless ways to move.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Keep your chest lifted.

[Peloton Announcer]

That's Peloton iq, helping you link lift smarter, train safer and move with confidence. With strength, yoga, Pilates and personalized guidance, this is the future of fitness. Let yourself run, lift, flow and go. Head to onepelaton.com to learn more about the cross training TREAD plus terms apply.

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[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

for

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

one in five people in the U.S. cartilage in our joints can significantly wear down over time, causing something called osteoarthritis. This can be caused by a bunch of different things, including genetics, sports injuries, obesity, joint injuries, and of course, aging. Current treatment options only really address the symptoms of the disease rather than the root cause. A team led by researchers from Stanford University recently claimed to have discovered a treatment that doesn't just stop cartilage loss in our joints, it reverses it Cartilage is something in our bodies that doesn't grow back once it's lost. And an enzyme called 15PGDH is known to break down chemical signals crucial for tissue repair. So the team wondered if blocking this enzyme might enhance cartilage repair. They injected aged mice with a tiny molecule that inhibits this enzyme, 15pgdh. What they found was that the naturally lost cartilage in the mice began to regenerate. And it wasn't just any cartilage regenerating either. Joints that take on the majority of stress in body movement, like the hips, the knees and ankles. They have a special kind of cartilage called articular cartilage or hyaline cartilage, which is different from what you might find on an ear or nose. It's the smooth, slippery tissue that lines the ends of bones where they meet at a joint, so your knees can bend without grinding. When it degenerates, we feel a lot more joint pain. These injections made the cartilage thicker and rebuilt the structural markers of healthy articular cartilage. Which is most important when it comes to not feeling the effects of osteoarthritis. People previously thought that cartilage regeneration wasn't possible. But this study showed that cartilage can grow back with this enzyme inhibitor. Not only that, the 15pgDH inhibitor also protected cartilage in mice with ACL type injuries. That's the kind that can lead to osteoarthritis down the road. The mice had thicker cartilage and decreased signs of pain. The team also tested the treatment on human cartilage tissue. Those are explants discarded from knee replacement surgeries that they could culture in a dish. There they saw the tissue accumulate more of the molecules that give cartilage its load bearing strength. The study authors hope to launch clinical trial for an oral version of this treatment based on the research. If all goes well, the hope is that those suffering from osteoarthritis will find some relief. And in an ideal world, joint replacements will be a thing of the past for Warner Bros. Discovery. Curiosity Weekly is produced by the team at Wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is Theresa Carey. Our producer is Chiara Noni. Our audio engineer is Nick Kharisimi. And head of Production for Wheelhouse DNA is Cassie Berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha Yamin. Thanks for listening.

[Veronika (Cow Owner)]

Hello guys. Here I'm. My name is Vitka and this is my very intelligent cow, Veronica. And we have some message for you. You save the nature, then you protect yourself and nature. Diversity is the key to survive on this planet. Thank you.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust Bill to simplify and secure bill pay. That's proven financial infrastructure built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. Visit bill.com proven for a special offer.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Okay, Peloton, let's go.

[Peloton Announcer]

That's the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq. Built for breakthroughs with real time insights and endless ways to move.

[Dr. Samantha Meen]

Keep your chest lifted.

[Peloton Announcer]

That's Peloton iq helping you lift smarter, train safer and move with confidence. With strength, yoga, Pilates and personalized guidance. This is the future of fitness. Let yourself run, lift, flow and go. Head to 1peloton.com to learn more about the cross training. Training plus terms apply.

[Vintage Store Shopper]

Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter?

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Right.

[Jennifer]

And the best part? They accept Discover.

[Vintage Store Shopper]

Except Discover in a little place like this? I don't think so. Jennifer.

[Jennifer]

Oh yeah, huh? Discover is accepted where I like to shop.

[Dr. Suzanne Simard]

Come on baby.

[Jennifer]

Get with the times.

[Vintage Store Shopper]

Right. So we shouldn't get the parachute pants.

[Jennifer]

These are making a comeback, I think.

[Discover Card Announcer]

Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.