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- [00:00]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [00:29]
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- [01:00]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Reggie, I just sold my car online. Let's go, grandpa.
- [01:03]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Wait, you did?
- [01:05]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Yep, on Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame.
- [01:13]
Professor Timothy Caufield
You don't say.
- [01:14]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast.
- [01:17]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Wow.
- [01:17]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Way to go. So, about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.
- [01:24]
Bombas Comfort Line Announcer
Car selling made easy on Carvana.
- [01:28]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Pick up. These may apply as we navigate our daily lives, often with devices in hand. How we absorb information can significantly impact our health decisions. We're bombarded with a wealth of helpful information and just as much misinformation. That's why I'm excited to talk to Professor Timothy Caufield, expert debunker and a professor in law and public health. Before I talk to him, I'll look into a new study that explores the neuroscience behind motivation, also known as why we sometimes can't just do that task that needs to get done. Can you tell that one's personal for me? And then later, we'll talk about the ins and outs of artificial snow. This is Curiosity Weekly, and I'm your host, Dr. Samantha Amien. Let's get started. Be honest. How long have you been procrastinating? Cleaning out your closet. And then once you did, how long did that bag of clothes for donation sit on your floor? For me, it's literally been six months. Okay, do not judge me. The bag is still there. Or at least if you're going to judge me, do it with some neuroscience. Because researchers identified the brain circuitry behind this type of avoidance behavior, and they used a targeted genetic approach to turn it off. A team from Kyoto University tasked monkeys with computer work to see if they could map out the brain pathway that leads to this avoidance behavior. Now, a task is considered unpleasant when there's something aversive involved, like some kind of punishment or discomfort attached to it. Say you have to confront a friend for a difficult conversation, or you want to try a workout that's new and challenging. For tasks like these, two parts of the brain play a role in motivation, disrupting the connection between those two parts of the brain produce apathy like behavior, at least in primates. They're called the ventral striatum and the ventral pallidum, and they're both nestled deep in the brain's reward network. But we didn't know the specifics on how these areas work together to influence motivation until now. The researchers set up two monkeys with a computer task where there were two different types of trials. In one trial, when the monkeys completed the task, they got a reward. In the other trial, they still got the reward for completing the task, but they also had to deal with a mildly unpleasant puff of air to the face. At the same time, a cue would pop up on the screen, indicating which trial was coming next. After seeing the cue, the monkeys could choose whether to start the task at all or completely avoid it. They found that when a task came with the unpleasant air puff attached, the monkeys were much less likely to even get started. The monkeys simply refused to fix their gaze on the screen to begin the trial. Here's where it gets really cool. The scientists could use a drug to turn down this specific brain connection. And when they did, the monkeys were more willing to start the trials, despite the annoying puff of air. What this tells us is that this pathway only kicks in when something negative is on the table. In their experiment, they basically lifted that motivational break. And it may also explain why just knowing a difficult task will be worth it isn't enough to get it started. So reframing a task to make it feel less aversive, less uncomfortable, is usually the way to go. For example, breaking up a task into more manageable small parts. I finally organized my closet because I decided to just start with the sock drawer, then tackle another drawer next weekend. Knowing the brain pathway behind motivations can help us design new medications and therapies in the future. This would be especially helpful in conditions like depression, where the motivational hurdles to get things started can be really challenging to overcome.
- [05:04]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, Monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save Hundreds of Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. With almost half a million customers and over a trillion dollars of secure payments, Bill isn't new to intelligent finance. It's the proven way to simplify bill pay and maximize cash flow. Want to learn more? Visit bill.comproven for a special offer hey,
- [05:43]
Paige from Giggly Squad
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- [06:24]
Dr. Samantha Amien
tell you, I was just looking on ebay where I go for all kinds of things I love. And there it was.
- [06:29]
Professor Timothy Caufield
That hologram trading card. One of the rarest.
- [06:32]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
The last one I needed for my set.
- [06:34]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. Ebay had it and now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful. Millions of finds, each with a story. EBay Things people love. We are constantly glued to our devices, like maybe even right now as you're listening to this podcast. And the way we consume information has huge implications, especially when it comes to the decisions we make about our health. Each day we're hit with an overwhelming amount of data as we scroll through social media, news outlets and other platforms online. This does offer incredible opportunities for learning, but it also comes with risks like misinformation and misleading claims. Being able to sift through information thoughtfully has become an essential skill. That's why I'm pleased to welcome to the show Professor Timothy Caufield. He's a professor and Research director of the Health Law Institute at the University of Alberta. He's also the author of multiple outstanding books, including the most recent, the Certainty, what you don't know, and why it matters. Welcome to the show, Tim.
- [07:46]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Thanks for having me on. Sam.
- [07:49]
Dr. Samantha Amien
There's so many things I want to ask you, but to start, what do you think are the biggest hurdles people face today when it comes to finding accurate information online?
- [07:57]
Professor Timothy Caufield
You know, Sam, I think you touched on one of them in the introduction. It's the frenetic pace, the bombardment of information that we. That we have right now. There's just so much information out there right now, it's biologically impossible for us to sift through it in a critical manner. And I really do think that's a big part of the story and often an underplayed part of the story. We engage with information now incredibly quickly. Right. And I think the social media platforms, where increasingly we get our information, invite us to do that. Right. They want us to move through the content quickly. They want us scrolling quickly. They don't want us pausing and reflecting. It's all about the noise.
- [08:48]
Dr. Samantha Amien
You're kind of touching on it, but you've had a pulse on this, and you've been tracking misinformation and scams related to health and the policy related to it for a really long time. So what do you see that's changed more recently in recent years? Because it's always. Misinformation's always been there. But what's the change been?
- [09:05]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Yeah, I've been following this for decades, really. I think no one's gonna be surprised by me saying it's gotten worse. And the things that are making it worse are the obvious things. Social media has become a dominant source of information now. In fact, studies have shown lots of this research comes from the United States, but it's applicable to Canada, that social media is becoming a dominant source of news. It's a dominant source of information more broadly, especially for the younger demographic. That's a big change. That's a significant and real change. So we're not relying on conventional news sources as much. And influencers. Influencers are becoming a dominant source of information and news for people. And, you know, these are individuals that don't necessarily follow journalistic standards. These are individuals that may not have appropriate training. They're influencers. So that's a huge shift. I think another huge shift is the role of identity. And so what do I mean by that? Yes, political identity is a big part of the story, but that's the story of echo chambers, the story of online communities. Increasingly we get information that is tailored to our preconceived notions, to our prejudices, to our, our, you know, our beliefs about how the world works. And that creates echo chambers and reinforces, makes it more difficult for people to get a breadth of perspectives on, on topics. And when you're talking about science, that really matters, right? So people may not even be exposed to what the actual science says on a topic, be it vaccines or climate change. And they reside in a world they may. And we all, by the way, and not pointing fingers here, we all kind of live in echo chambers, right? We, people may not be exposed to what the actual science says. And another big shift, and this is a shift and you can probably guess I'm going to say that's happened over really the last two years. And this is the rise of AI. You know, this is becoming an increasingly dominant part of the story. Virtually every element of our information environment is being shaped by AI now in a very significant way. In fact, there was a study that came out of the United States again really recently that suggests that online content now is, I think it's 52% is created by AI and 48% created by humans. So in other words, yeah, already the singularity is upon us. It already is becoming a dominant form of communication. And layer on top of that, you know, really convincing deep fakes, layer on top of that, really convincing AI influencers. People may not even realize that they're AI generated. It's becoming problematic.
- [11:53]
Dr. Samantha Amien
It's so easy to be fooled. And so you have a tip, I've heard you quote a study about why like pausing and, and not being so fast and quick to share. Can you tell us more about that?
- [12:04]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Yeah, I think that this idea of pausing, which sounds ridiculously simple, doesn't it sound like so straightforward? But there's been, there's been a body of research on this. So this work has been replicated by other laboratories, etc. But people like David Rand and Gordon Penny Cook, Gordon's at Cornell and David's at mit, have done really interesting research on the idea of just pausing. And, and Sam, I'm talking just a beat here, you know, I'm not talking about putting your phone down and walking away. Even pausing for a moment can make a difference. You're less likely to fall for misinformation, less likely to share it. And if I might, I think this is because of another really important study. Another really important study highlights why this works. So this was a study that came out about 18 months ago that found that 75%, Sam, 75% of the content online is shared without clicking through. And this was research that was done on meta content, you know, Facebook and Instagram. But I think it applies broadly. So people are sharing content based on that emotional response, right? You know, the think of that echo chamber we were referring to, you know, that they really agree with it or it makes them angry or it's, you know, it plays to their rage or grievance. But people are sharing content without clicking through. This is. They're sharing our, I like to put it this way, our information environment is created by our emotional gut response to information. So this idea of pausing, I think it works because even for a moment, it invites us to put our emotions aside for just a moment, for a beat, and think critically. I don't know if you know, do you know Kate Starbird, she's a researcher at the University of Washington, does really fantastic work in this space. And I actually interviewed her and I asked her, you know, what's your advice? Her number one bit of advice is if it feels like your team scored a touchdown, that should be a clue to pause, right, to reflect. And then of course, you built on if it makes you angry. In other words, if it's playing to your emotions, that should be a signal to pause. That should be a red flag. And I love that bit of advice, right, because it really does touch on, you know, the frenetic pace of our, of our information environment, the role of algorithms, you know, echo chambers, all of those things. It's great advice.
- [14:24]
Dr. Samantha Amien
You touched on AI and I'm just curious. Of course none of us can predict the future and it changes so fast, but what are you seeing in terms of trends or in the research about how it might change the landscape of information or journalism and science communication?
- [14:39]
Professor Timothy Caufield
So my fear is the degree to which it is realistic and fooling us. I think people intuitively think I can tell the difference, I can tell the difference. You know, it may fool other people, but. And the answer is no, you can't. It's becoming so incredibly, incredibly realistic. And I think that that trend is obviously just going to increase. I mean, you know, six months ago is the stone age for AI, right? And in six months from now is the future. It's just so, it's moving so, so, so quickly. There was a really interesting study came out of Columbia where they found that they took text from world renowned authors, you know, Nobel laureates, you know, Pulitzer Prize winners, and they had AI create text similar too. And Then they had readers. So could not tell the difference. Sam could not tell the difference. And it gets worse. Preferred the AI written text. It's just really, really remarkable. Right. This is where we're going. And I think that we have to grapple with this reality.
- [15:51]
Dr. Samantha Amien
You had a study in 2023 about how businesses selling untested or unregulated alternatives for cancer therapies could leverage ad and search ranking to reach patients who were otherwise seeking evidence based sources. I mean, if you think about that in the context of AI now, like if you did that study again, your results, can you tell us more what you found then and how it might fit into this current moment?
- [16:15]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Yeah, I think a lot of people think of health misinformation as just misleading content. Right. But it comes in so many different forms and that's one of the things that we wanted to dig into. My fantastic research team. I'm really lucky to have these individuals that have far superior methodological skills to mine where we've looked at exactly what you've described, right. If you start searching for a cancer cure, you know, people can buy the ability to pull you towards bogus treatments. The other thing that Sam, that we've looked at are things like online reviews for cancer clinics in, you know, foreign countries that are offering completely bogus alternative therapies. Of course they're, you know, rave reviews of these clinics. And we know research tells us that those kinds of reviews work. They really do make a difference. They really can pull people towards these clinics. It's a really interesting area of research because our information environment is so frenetic. We're always looking for quick answers. And online reviews, those five stars, right. Are a very quick way. And we know that online reviews are fake, manipulated. And even if people know that, they will still use those online reviews. So, for example, in the health space, we know there's absolutely no correlation between online reviews and actual health outcomes. Right. And one could argue it might be even an inverse relationship. Right. But despite that, people turn to these reviews, they feel authentic, they feel like stories. Right. And we all know how powerful stories are to shape opinions. Really problematic aspect of our online lives.
- [17:56]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Speaking of stories and reviews, why is it different when it comes from a celebrity or an influencer? And how does that, that like, further complicate things for everyday people trying to find quality information?
- [18:08]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Well, for sure it complicates things. And, and yes, celebrities continue to have a huge impact on how we think about, about health. There are a couple of health trends. You know, I like to use Gluten free as, as, as a good example that were almost entirely created by, by celebrity culture. Now, if you're celiac, if you have non celiac gluten sensitivity, you have a clinical reason for avoiding gluten. But the idea that gluten is inherently healthy, healthier, that was created by celebrity culture and it exists still like it's still a health halo, right? Gluten free is still a health halo. A massive market, many, many other examples. Now we're seeing celebrities play a role in the marketing of things like unproven stem cell therapies. Right. You know, Chris Hemsworth, you know, the best looking of the Hemsworth people, brothers, goes to, you know, a Panama clinic and he raves about the clinic, stem cell longevity therapies. And he's got, I think 50 million followers, I want to say, on Instagram. You know, that has a huge impact, right? And it's because obviously the megaphone is part of it. It plays to the availability bias, right? The illusory truth. You just hear something enough, it feels real. Celebrities can play a really big role in that cognitive bias. The other thing it does, of course, we've touched on it. They're a story, right? And often they're a compelling, good looking story. Right. We know that anecdotes, stories, testimonials can sway our ability to think rationally. So that's another way that celebrities can play a huge role with all of these topics. Sam, you know, there's complexities to it because pop culture can do a lot of good too. They can, you know, they've done great things with normalizing, you know, gender issues. They've done great things, you know, think about their role during the HIV crisis. So celebrity culture is here to stay and it plays a role in our lives, but it can also do great harm.
- [20:07]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Yeah. I'm thinking about you also mentioning it starts that story and that builds some familiarity. I think you called it illusory truth bias. Is that the formal name? Yeah. Can you tell us more about that?
- [20:20]
Professor Timothy Caufield
It's a very straightforward cognitive bias. The more you see some thing, the more likely you'll think it's true, right? You're more likely, you're open to the idea of this being true. And we all, again, this impacts all of us. And think about how this has played out in politics, right? You just say something absurd enough, it starts to feel a little bit real. And that's one of the reasons I think you should debunk everything. I know the word debunks got a little bit of a bad word. And I get it, it sounds combative and that's not the right entry point for a lot of these conversations. But I do think it's important to counter really everything because if it's out there and it's making noise, people can start to believe it.
- [21:05]
Dr. Samantha Amien
But for the average person who's maybe not doing all that work or not putting content out there and just scrolling and taking things in, what advice do you have for them? What are things that they can do to get a sense whether they need to be raising some flags, whether something's trustworthy? What are your tips for the average person who's just consuming content online?
- [21:26]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Well, I really think that, you know, we've touched on a real, an important one and this, this idea of pausing and reflecting, right? It's so, it's so easy to believe we've all fallen for misinformation. Sam, I think I've told you this before. I keep a list of, of misinformation. I study misinformation, Sam, and I've fallen for it, right? And things have changed my mind on, you know, I think it's really important to, to come to the, to, you know, our information environment with that humility. So that's one thing I think you want to do. And this is there's a little bit of a paradox that's happening right now because there's so much fake news, fake research online now. There's so many poorly done studies that look legitimate. There are these influencers, et cetera, et cetera. The role of the expert has become more important, not less important. You know, someone who, who actually knows the literature in this area. So I think that, that turning to trusted voices that are genuinely well aware of the body of evidence in an area is, is incredibly important. So why is it a paradox? You know, the value of that expertise is increasing at the exact time that, you know, experts are being downplayed or mocked or marginalized, which is really problematic. And of course, that's a strategic effort by individuals trying to spread misinformation.
- [22:53]
Dr. Samantha Amien
This feels like a lot on the average person and it would be great if we had some regulatory frameworks that could keep up with these challenges, especially as we're on this huge inflection point with AI. What I really admire about you is your very transparent about, as you said, when your mind has changed and you're very open about, like, hey, we can evolve our thinking, everyone, and you lead with that, you demonstrate it. So in the spirit of helping everyone feel a little bit more comfortable admitting that maybe they've gotten something wrong. Do you have any stats on like, how common that is, like how often we fall for misinformation?
- [23:31]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Tracer found that 60% of fitness videos misleading or full misinformation. Anywhere between 80 to 85% of videos about cancer cures misleading or problematic. That's like all the content online. There was another study that found only 2% of nutrition content online is based on good science. This was a study from Ireland. And our own research has found that 50% of cancer books are misleading or problematic. The misinformation is absolutely everywhere. It's almost become the norm.
- [24:05]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Fantastic. Tim. Thank you so so much for joining us today. Timothy Cotfield is a professor and research director of the Health Law Institute at the University of Alberta. You got to check out some of his books, including the latest the certainty Illusion, what you don't know and why it matters. Thank you, Tim.
- [24:20]
Professor Timothy Caufield
Thank you, Sam.
- [24:26]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
- [24:48]
Sarah from Olive and June
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- [25:46]
Matt from P1 with Matt and Tommy
Hi, this is Matt from P1 with Matt and Tommy. And this episode is sponsored by ebay. The cars you'll find on ebay are just different. They come with a story that you can't wait to share. Like this 1973 Dodge Charger on ebay that has been tucked away in an Arizona Barn for over 40 years. Only 55,000 miles and somehow in great running order. It even has a rare sunroof. Suddenly, a car that was hidden for decades is being delivered in just a few clicks with eBay's secure purchase. All the paperwork handled. There are thousands of cars on ebay, from unique finds like the Pontiac Grand Prix SJ to daily drivers. And now with a new way to buy them, ebay Things People Love
- [26:29]
Elise Hu from Forever 35 Podcast
hey, it's Elise Hu from the podcast Forever 35, where every week we talk about how we best take care of ourselves and the different ways self care can look for everyone. But taking care of yourself is key, no matter who you are. So if you are struggling with hot flashes, noticing brain fog or increased fatigue, dealing with some restless nights, maybe know that it's not just you and it's not just aging. It could be hormonal. And that's why Alloy exists, to make sure you get the care you actually need from menopause expert doctors wherever you are. No waiting rooms, no pharmacy lines, just real menopause solutions delivered straight to you. 95% of women feel better in just two weeks. Visit myalloid.com that's my A L L O and don't forget to use code FOREVER35. That's Forever35 for $20 off your first order, Aloy is here to help you feel like yourself again.
- [27:27]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Artificial snowmaking is a lifesaver for winter sports lovers. When Mother Nature isn't cooperating, sometimes we need a little help from technology to create those snowy scenes. Producing artificial snow starts by drawing water from nearby lakes or rivers, then using a snow gun to shoot a fine mist into the cold. There are two types of snow guns. Some use compressed air to push the water into fine mist, while others have electric fans that do the job instead. Both methods help create snow by letting the droplets freeze before they hit the ground. One key factor in making snow is the wet bulb temperature, which considers both the air temperature and moisture levels. For most snowmaking, the best snow is when the temperature is below minus 2 degrees Celsius, or 28 degrees Fahrenheit, which is just below freezing. Dry air is particularly helpful because it allows the water droplets to freeze more efficiently. Some artificial snow uses special additives to seed ice crystal formation, like snowmax, which is derived from a harmless bacterium. While both natural and artificial snow are frozen water, they feel distinctly different. The droplets from the artificial snow guns freeze quickly as they fall, resulting in these small dense balls of ice. This kind of snow feels hard and icy, which can be advantageous for ski racing. However, natural snow is lighter and fluffier because of its loosely packed crystals that contain a lot of air. This is the powder snow that recreational skiers dream of, and as someone trying to learn how to snowboard, that's what I'm always hoping for. Let's talk about the impact of all this. Producing artificial snow requires a significant amount of water, hundreds of thousands of gallons per acre. During dry winters, this can strain local water resources. When spring arrives, some of the water runs back into the local watershed, and while it may seem like a temporary fix for a lack of powder, the process can have longer term environmental consequences. For instance, studies have shown that artificial snow can alter soil temperatures and moisture levels, potentially affecting the native ecosystems and the wildlife that depend on them. The infrastructure required for snowmaking, including the energy needed to operate those snow guns, those can lead to increased greenhouse gas emissions. A 2023 study found that producing snow for a year of ski operations in Canada alone consumed the energy equivalent to nearly 17,000 homes. The amount of CO2 emissions it generates is comparable to the carbon Sequestered by over 155,000 acres of forest in a year. It's a cycle worth considering as we're trying to create a winter wonderland. By prioritizing sustainable practices, ski resorts can pave the way for a more eco friendly future in Alpine recreation. After all, we're trying to enjoy the great outdoors over here for Warner Bros. Discovery Curiosity Weekly is produced by the team at Wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is Teresa Carey. Our producer is Chiara Noni, our audio engineer is Nick Karisimi and head of production for Wheelhouse DNA is Cassie berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha Yamin. Thanks for listening.
- [30:54]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [31:13]
Matt from P1 with Matt and Tommy
With its two juicy beef patties, three
- [31:15]
Professor Timothy Caufield
slices of melted cheese and tangy Big Arch sauce. The Big Arch is what happens when you start start making a McDonald's burger and never stop. The Big Arch the most McDonald's McDonald's burger yet for a limited time hey,
- [31:30]
Adam Grant from Work Life Podcast
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- [32:10]
Bombas Comfort Line Announcer
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- [32:18]
Dr. Samantha Amien
Keep your chest lifted.
- [32:19]
Bombas Comfort Line Announcer
That's Peloton iq, helping you lift smarter, train safer, and move with confidence. With strength, yoga, Pilates, and personalized guidance, this is the future of fitness. Let yourself run, lift, flow and go. Head to 1peloton.com to learn more about the cross training tread plus terms.
- [32:37]
Paige from Giggly Squad
Apply.