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- [00:00]
Dr. Samantha Yamin
This summer, Instacart is bringing back your favorites from 1999 with prices from 1999. That means 90s prices on juice pouches that ought to be respected, 90s prices on box Mac and cheese, and 90s prices on ham, cheese and cracker lunches. Enjoy all those throwbacks and more at throwback prices only through Instacart. $4.72 maximum discount per $10 of eligible items. Limit 3 offers per order. Expire September 5th while suppl discount based on CPI comparison.
- [00:39]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Summer is just around the corner. And that means one thing in my books. It's Pride Month. Sure, it's easy to scroll past parades, rainbows and party pics on social media, but Pride is also about reflection. It's about honoring the experiences and contributions of two spirit LGBTQIA people past and present, and recognizing that even as society evolves, there's still work to do. Gender identity is central to this story. There would be no Pride Month without the courage of gender non conforming leaders like Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, who helped ignite the modern queer rights movement during the Stonewall uprising. Today, nearly 60 years later, misconceptions about queer and trans lives still run deep, including in science and healthcare. That's why I'm so excited to share Today's interview with Dr. Shawn Hercules, a queer non binary cancer researcher and science communicator. We'll explore their work on breast cancer in women of African ancestry, why inclusive research is essential for better care, and how they're shaping policy around gender affirming care. Before that, I'll dig into the neuroscience behind the right to disconnect, also known as how the expectation to be everything everywhere all at once when it comes to work is stressing us out. We'll also explore the pros and cons, but don't mainly cons behind the recent uptick in deep sea Mining. I'm Dr. Samantha Yamin and this is Curiosity Weekly from Discovery. Let's get into it Sometimes I feel like the workday never really ends. I know you know the feeling, especially for those of us who work from home. Work is everywhere. It's all the time. And burnout is so real. But now some governments are stepping in, creating a growing global movement called the right to Disconnect. It's a concept that's picking up steam as new research tells us more about what after hours work is doing to our brains. Don't get me wrong, no matter what the sign says, I'm a night owl, okay? I'm often on slack or in Google Docs working well past 11pm and sometimes my lovely producer sends updates that late too. I could ignore them until the next day, but I don't. Why? I don't know. Because many of us feel like we can't. Because I'm into the work and it's interesting. That's exactly the problem. A growing body of neuroscience research is showing that this constant digital availability isn't just tricky to deal with, it's actually harmful. A study published in the Journal of Occupational Health Psychology looked into the effects of after hours work expectations on employee well being. The researchers surveyed 132 employees and in a smaller subset they looked at their cortisol levels. That's the stress hormone. They did this during a four day period where they were expected to be available for work during off hours and then a four day period when they weren't. Then they compared the results from the two time periods. They found that when employees were expected to be available for work during off hours, they started the day in a worse mood and had increased cortisol measurements. This suggests that the mere expectation of after hours availability can stress people out. Having that increased cortisol over time can drain your focus, mess with memory, and even raise the risk for anxiety and depression. And there's more. A recent report from the University of Southern California's Marshall School of Business conducted 16 studies with 7,800 participants to study how employees who unplug from work are perceived. They set up controlled experiments where two employees would be exactly equal in quality but have different levels of unplugging. For example, one would set an out of office email alert for a weekend away and the other wouldn't. And the managers rated the one who detached from work lower. And here's the strange Even managers who recognize the benefits of unplugging for productivity and well being gave the same penalty, rating them as less committed and less promotable than their colleague. This phenomenon is referred to as the detachment paradox, where managers value the benefits of detachment but penalize the behavior itself. It takes a shift in cultural norms at a company to avoid this penalty. So managers, if you're listening, don't just say you support unplugging. Actually show it. A lot of people find it hard to disconnect. In fact, the Australia Institute issued a report in 2023 finding that Australians averaged 281 hours of unpaid overtime that year. That's equal to about seven extra weeks of work. Now imagine what your bonus would look like if you were paid for that. The following year, Australia passed a Right to Disconnect law Now. Countries like France, Portugal, Ireland, and even parts of Canada, my home country, have passed or proposed laws giving employees the legal right to ignore work emails and calls after hours without the fear of retaliation. Thankfully, we at Curiosity aren't expected to work late, even if some of us, like me, choose to. Now, we're not just trying to rile everyone up. This isn't just about working overtime. It's about expectations and boundaries and whether you're fully unplugged or not. Because that's something our brains actually need in order to recharge and stay sharp. People who disconnect more often actually perform better. Plus, the well being and happiness benefits can't be understated. So while the laws are still evolving, the science is clear. Our brains aren't built to be online 24, 7 and the longer we stay plugged in, the more we risk burning out.
- [06:02]
Dr. Samantha Yamin
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [06:27]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Happy Pride y' all two Spirit LGBTQIA People have made science to so much better and continue to every day. I've always thought that the Pride flag, which initially started as an eight colored rainbow and now continues to evolve every few years, perfectly captures the ethos of science to keep shifting and expanding as we learn more. Like science, queerness isn't static. It's about exploration, complexity and challenging assumptions. So today we're celebrating the people who do both. Pushing boundaries in identity and in discovery, queer and trans people are an essential part of the science community. There's trans neuroscientist Ben Barris, who helped us understand that astrocytes aren't just support cells, they actually play an active and important role in how the brain works. And there's Sally Ride, the US first woman in space and first acknowledged gay astronaut. And then of course there's my good friend Dr. Shawn Hercules. Shawn is a queer non binary clinical epidemiologist with expertise in molecular cancer biology and health equity. We first met at a drag race viewing party and realized that we both shared an extreme love of both science and drag. So we ended up co founding an entire nonprofit together along with a few other friends that celebrates queer and trans scientists and it's called Science is a Drag. I am so excited to introduce you all to my good friend Sean. Welcome to the show, babes.
- [07:49]
Kyne Santos
Yay. Thank you.
- [07:53]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Thank you for being here. I'm so excited to chat with you today formally.
- [07:58]
Kyne Santos
No, thanks for having me.
- [08:01]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Okay, in your view, what are some of the ways that science as a field can be made more inclusive, not just in terms of identity, but in terms of whose questions and ways of knowing are valued?
- [08:12]
Kyne Santos
You know, that's a big reason of why we started Science as a drag six years ago, in 2019.
- [08:20]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Was it? Six, wow.
- [08:22]
Kyne Santos
Six years ago. I know, because when we go to conferences, we usually see the same type of person being white, CIS male stereotype of the leaders in science platforms. It's just not very encouraging for people who are generally present outside of that. And Sciences of Drag shows you, oh, wow. They're like real, real scientists that do not look like that, do not speak like that. You know, science is more heterogeneous. So if we have the same type of people asking the same questions, we're not going to have diverse thought. We're not actually addressing the big questions that we should be addressing. We're missing people outside of gender. If we bring race and ethnicity as well, more diverse voices and perspectives leads to more rich questions and rich outcomes for our heterogeneous populations.
- [09:24]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Okay, so you're a multi hyphenate, so let's start with a bit of your research background. Can you tell us more about your doctoral and postdoc research that was studying breast cancer in women of African ancestry?
- [09:36]
Kyne Santos
Yeah, so for my doctorate, I, as you mentioned, I worked with women of African ancestry. I investigated the epidemiology and which is the disease trends of a particular form of breast cancer called triple negative breast cancer among women of African ancestry and the genetics within this population. The main chapters were on the incidence of this particular form of breast cancer, specifically among the Barbadian population, which is where I live. So I went to Barbados and I was able to conduct the study. And we found that compared to the US population, that Barbados had a higher percentage of this particular form of breast cancer being diagnosed compared to black women and white women in the US and we also found that there was a higher incidence of breast cancer just generally being diagnosed among younger populations within the Barbadian population. So it really did help to continue those conversations among the Barbadian population about getting checked earlier and just being aware of this particular form of breast cancer with limited treatment options. I also traveled to Nigeria and I collected breast cancer specimens and I conducted whole exome sequencing. So I just looked at the protein coding regions of the DNA looked for unique mutations within the Nigerian population and Barbadian population for the samples that we had. And yeah, these populations are so understudied. There's not a wealth of data online. And it was really important for us, for me and my team and my supervisor to really put this out there so that we can hopefully find actionable targets for therapy.
- [11:32]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
And what was the role of community in that type of research? Because you were out there collecting samples from these populations who, like you said, are understudied. Like what role does community play in doing that type of research?
- [11:43]
Kyne Santos
Community plays a huge role. So for the Nigerian study, There was a PhD student in our lab from Nigeria and she actually formed relationships with various surgeons on the ground in Nigeria before we even started this work. So it was really important for us to build those relationships. My supervisor is from Barbados as well. So we established those connections with the surgeons, with the pathologists, the lab techs, the patients as well. We really, most of the time, well, a lot of the time was actually spent building the relationships so that we can start the work so we can get the consent form so we can actually get those balls rolling. So that was really, really important and that played a huge role in us even getting samples or getting any level of data and being able to contribute.
- [12:35]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Yeah, it needs to be like, by us, for us.
- [12:37]
Kyne Santos
Exactly.
- [12:38]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Yeah. I'm curious if there are any examples where your identity as a queer, non binary person has given you a unique lens on your approach to science or public health.
- [12:49]
Kyne Santos
We think of breast cancer as only affecting women. We do know that there are males that do get breast cancer. You know, that's a population that is missed. But also during my postdoc specifically I was focused on screening among high risk populations and I was really cognizant to not use the term women. I focus on populations to also include other people who are not women. Like a lot of trans people are excluded within cancer screening. So say that you already have a background of high risk through a mutation, like a BRCA1 or BRCA2 mutation, or through family history and then you undergo medical transition. We don't really know how much your risk has altered through any of your gender affirming care or surgeries that you might have gone through through surgery, through hormones, et cetera. However, those populations are not really thought about because no one's really studying them. So my lens has really helped me to include those on our protocols. Now how are we approach approaching these populations within our research? So I a thousand percent believe that how I navigate through life outside of science has really impacted how I ask research questions, how I work within a team to like writing protocols for studies. There was always this blurb within our ethics protocols that not bothered me, but it was just like, oh, this is so annoying. Why is this here? It's all like pregnant women, mass xyz and I'm just like, okay, there are other people outside of women that get pregnant, so just say people that can get pregnant. It's really not that hard. And they started doing that after I was on that committee.
- [14:45]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
On the research side, the way that we are defining the research and even the categories for the data, I feel very passionately about that. Especially as we move towards a future of more personalized medicine. That's the more precision health, that's the promise. We're trying to get more granular and understanding everyone's individual health and recognizing someone's unique sex or gender and what they're doing to affirm that gender and how that could influence their biology. Those are really important and interesting scientific questions that will impact healthcare outcomes. I'm glad to know you as someone who's making those changes internally. And then on the policy side, even the way we talk about breast cancer screening. I just said it. Breast cancer. I think there's a shift to say breast and chest, right?
- [15:28]
Kyne Santos
Yeah, breast and chest. Mostly for materials for trans populations that they're changing that language. But overall there's a move now to from saying just breast, breast and chest cancer.
- [15:41]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
I think a lot about cases where things have originally developed for trans people eventually benefited CIS people. Trans activists and healthcare providers pushed for an informed consent model for hormone therapy that removed outdated paternalistic gatekeeping like mandatory psychotherapy or approval by a panel. And that's impacted CIS people. It influence broader shifts in medicine towards more patient centered consent based care. For example, similar models are now being considered in reproductive health care, replacement therapy for menopause, even cosmetic procedures. Why does understanding queer health and trans health matter for everyone?
- [16:18]
Kyne Santos
A lot of what we know about gender affirming care that trans people utilize. A lot of CIS people use the same procedures that were innovated for trans and gender diverse individuals. So I mean if you want to start off with like the selfish reason, that should be one reason. Because it, it might benefit you at some point.
- [16:45]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Like hormone therapy for example.
- [16:46]
Kyne Santos
Exactly, hormone therapy. Our first instinct is to think about ourselves and then like the next level of a bubble. But like the world is so huge, like you should care, you know, so even like bringing, bringing back that example of me on that ethics committee, it seems minor, but you know, it was pretty important in my opinion. You know, we, my lab, we were asking the right questions. So that's why honestly, we need more diverse voices. More diverse voices and perspectives leads to more rich questions and rich outcomes for our heterogeneous populations.
- [17:26]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Yeah, I think a lot about queer and trans populations who were neglected in the AIDS crisis in the 80s, like basically led the way in understanding harm reduction, which is a core tenet of public health to this day. That was helpful during the COVID 19 pandemic. It's helpful for thinking about substance use. Any public health issue requires harm reduction. And that was very much championed and elevated by queer and trans activists.
- [17:55]
Kyne Santos
And you know, like populations that have to fight for their own because they've been neglected, have systems in place that then later on the rest of the world catches on. It's like, you know what, maybe we should. And largely queer and trans people, black people in the U.S. other people of color that are neglected, had to be innovative. And that's why again, we need more diversity in science and health, because those voices at the table will definitely help advance and push the needle in ways that we would have never seen before.
- [18:29]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Now, when it comes to gender affirming care, there are also many different things that that can mean. So can you tell us a bit about what gender affirming care is and the different ways that that can look?
- [18:40]
Kyne Santos
It's very specific and it's not one or the other or like the whole suite of things. It really depends on the individual's gender dysphoria and gender incongruence. So the disconnect between what's inside versus outside the society places this expectation for you to be X way or Y way, however inside, like you'd feel completely outside of those bounds. And gender affirming here can look like many different ways. But it's goal is for you to feel aligning of what you know that you are. So essentially gender affirming care will help you to navigate through life internally and externally. I identify as non binary, so neither man or woman, just somewhere in the middle and sometimes closer to one than the other. Like there's a huge confusion with the general public when they think of gender affirming care. They just think of gender affirming surgeries. But there's so many other ways.
- [19:50]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Or for parents of young children going to family counseling together to learn as a group about the way that you can make your house feel more affirming or different language that you can use that's gender affirming care too. Right. That seeking that psychosocial intervention. Do we know much about the outcomes from providing gender affirming care or even providing this type of gender affirming language in how we talk about health care?
- [20:18]
Kyne Santos
Yeah. So the main outcomes that we look at would be for sexual function, for overall satisfaction, surgical complications. And some evidence also looks at regret. Yeah. Like people are affirmed, people are happier. A vast majority of people are very happy that they've gone through gender affirming care if it's not surgery. So, yeah, those are the main types of outcomes that, that we look at in studies.
- [20:56]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Yeah. I also think when we brought in our definitions, that influences how we function in a society and when we brought in our health care, that will also help us have a deeper understanding of the core biology that impacts health. I want to end with asking whether you have any queer or trans mentors in science or favorite queer or trans scientists that you look up to. Your pick.
- [21:18]
Kyne Santos
Oh my God, that's a big question.
- [21:22]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Say their name.
- [21:25]
Kyne Santos
Yeah, I'm gonna pick Kyne. I love that Kyne has put the intersection of drag with math on the map, the global map, huge on TikTok and is so unapologetically themselves and really like ties in how queerness and math intersects in a way that I would have never thought. You know, I just love, I just love what kind does. And I'm, I'm really, really excited. Anytime you see Kyne on my feed.
- [21:58]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
For folks who don't know Kyne or Kyne Santos is a mathematician and drag performer drag queen who goes by the same name in Drag Kine. They competed on Canada's Drag Race season one and are everywhere on TikTok, Instagram, you name it, with the handle Linekine. What a fabulous answer. What a great way to end. Thank you so much for joining us, Sean. This was so much fun. Happy Pride.
- [22:24]
Kyne Santos
Thanks.
- [22:25]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Happy Pride.
- [22:25]
Kyne Santos
Thanks for having me.
- [22:29]
Dr. Shawn Hercules
Did you know that thousands of meters below the ocean surface, like way deeper than where sunlight can reach, there are these fields of shimmering rocks and metal rich nodules scattered across the ocean floor. They're packed with the building blocks of our modern technology, everything from cobalt to nickel, manganese and rare earth elements. So in April, President Trump signed an executive order to ramp up exploration and mining of these critical minerals from the ocean floor. So with that going on, let's learn a little bit more about deep sea mining. The mineral deposits that we're interested in when it comes to deep sea mining can exist in a few different ways on the Ocean floor. There are these potato sized rocks scattered across the seafloor. They can also be around hydrothermal vents, which are basically like underwater geysers. Those ones are packed with copper, gold, and valuable metals. And then there are these underwater mountains called seamounts, where you'll find lots of cobalt rich crusts, but they're like 4,000 to 6,000 meters deep or two or four miles down. So it's not your typical mining. In fact, to get to it, you have to release these robotic vehicles that are sent all the way down to the seafloor. Kind of like a pool vacuum cleaner, except bigger and attached by a pipe to a giant sea carrier on the ocean surface. These will vacuum up nodules or scrape crusts off rock surfaces for sulfide mining. They can even crush parts of the seafloor around vents. Sounds pretty disruptive to ocean ecosystems. So why are we even considering doing this? Well, as I mentioned, the demand for these metals is huge due to a push for clean energy and digital tech. Like to make more batteries to power your electric car? We need these minerals. A single electric vehicle battery can require several kilograms of cobalt and nickel. Right now, a lot of these minerals are just being mined in a few countries, often under conditions that raise serious human rights concerns. The argument for deep sea mining is that you'd have this huge supply of these critical minerals, hopefully have fewer people affected, and then you wouldn't have to clear all the forests to build the landmines. But there are a lot of things we need to consider first. Mainly, we don't really understand ecosystems in the deep sea. There are a lot of unique species that have adapted to complete darkness, a lot of pressure and very cold temperatures. How are they going to be affected by this? We just talked about our dear friend, the Colossal Squid on a recent episode. What's going to happen to the Colossal Squid? Mining operations could stir up massive sediment plumes that smother marine life, disrupt breeding grounds, and destroy habitats that took millions of years to form. There's also a concern that the noise, pollution and vibrations from this mining could affect whales and other deep diving species. These are important things to consider because the damage could be permanent. Deep sea environments recover extremely slowly. Right now, deep sea mining is caught between two major global getting the critical minerals we need and keeping the planet healthy. Thanks for listening. If there's anything you're curious about, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and ask us about it. We love seeing what our listeners are into, so don't be shy. Your topic might be featured in our next few episodes for Warner Bros. Discovery Curiosity Weekly is produced by the team at Wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is Teresa Carey, our producer is Chiara Noni, our audio engineer is Nick Kharisimi and the head of production for Wheelhouse DNA is Cassie berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha Yueen. Thanks for listening.
- [26:08]
Dr. Samantha Yamin
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.