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Kim Stanley Robinson (5:03)

You look the same.

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You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

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Oh, that's annoying. At least with the new Blue Apron, there's no subscription needed. Get delicious meals delivered without the weekly plan.

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Keep the flavor. Ditch the subscription. Get 20% off your first two orders with code APR. Blue Apron 20 terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more.

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Kim Stanley Robinson (6:23)

Lounge access is subject to change.

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Curiosity Weekly Host Dr. Samantha Yamin (6:28)

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Kim Stanley Robinson (6:29)

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Curiosity Weekly Host Dr. Samantha Yamin (7:00)

Science fiction has a unique power to stretch our imaginations while grappling with real scientific ideas and societal challenges. It pushes us to think about possible futures and what it means to be human in a world shaped by technology and change. I'm currently reading a sci fi book, Hank Green's Duology, and it's really been fascinating just to daydream and think about all the what ifs. Senior producer Teresa Carey will talk with Kim Stanley Robinson, one of the most influential voices in science fiction. His Mars trilogy and climate fiction have inspired readers and thinkers worldwide to consider big questions about our planet and beyond. Here they are.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (7:39)

Mr. Robinson, thank you so much for talking with me. I'd love to know, how did you come to see science fiction as your main literary form, like, capable of exploring these big ideas and complex realities that you do in some of your novels?

Kim Stanley Robinson (7:50)

I grew up in Orange county as a kid south of Los Angeles, and it was orange groves. And during the time I was a child and a youth, before I went off to college, through my high school years, the orange groves were being torn out and replaced by freeways and shopping malls and apartment complexes in suburbia at an incredible rate. I read later, five acres a day, every day for 10 years. And so I had been a very intense reader through my childhood and basically ransacked about three local libraries, small libraries for all their books. When I ran into science fiction, which is just a coincidence, in the checkout stand at a library, I saw a book by Isaac Asimov and a book by Clifford Simak. And I I always took out the full 10 per week. Not that I read them all, but I took out 10 books. So I grabbed these last two and I started reading them, and it was like the light bulb going off over my head type of experience. It was a feeling of recognition. These stories set in the future with all their strange transformations and time speeding up and people turning into robots in front of your eyes, it all felt right. It's a way of presenting the present in the way that it feels. So it's poetical. It's like a metaphor. And it's also talking about what's coming. So it's somewhat like prophecy. It's not really prediction because you can't predict the future, which is very, very unpredictable. But you can talk about the future and you can present likely scenarios.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (9:25)

I like that you said you would ransack the libraries. My child and I go in with a laundry basket that we fill with books.

Kim Stanley Robinson (9:33)

I like it.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (9:35)

So on our show Curiosity Weekly, we often focus on facts, on new research that's come out and things like that to really inform our audience and to help them navigate the world with reliable information. But science fiction, I think, also plays a really important role alongside factual knowledge. It helps people grasp these complex scientific ideas or imagine possible futures, or develop critical thinking about technology and society. We had a segment on literacy where our guests talked about how simply reading storybooks, fiction, novels, can really develop the brain and critical thinking and empathy. And so from your perspective, how does science fiction do this for us? How can storytelling in this genre complement facts to deepen public understanding and curiosity about science?

Kim Stanley Robinson (10:28)

Well, first, I think it works the same as all literature, as you just mentioned, when you're reading a story, those are just black marks on the page. And you have to do a lot of cognitive work to turn it into an experience in your head. You have to use your imagination, your memory, your grasp of reality itself. And when you're done, you've had an experience then. Now, science fiction in particular, the story coming out of the future, has this kind of eerie power to it. So you get a dystopia and utopia, to use the science fiction literary terms. But these are ancient forms. The story of things coming good if you behave right, the story of things going bad if you behave wrong. Humans have always told these stories, and it's a mental power that we have to think forward into the future and think about consequences of actions. So science fiction is about the consequences of social actions. But then if you read a lot of science fiction, you go out into the world and something happens. Everybody else is like, oh, my God, this is new. I never thought of it. And the science fiction reader is like, well, this has been discussed for about 50 years, and I'm ready for it because I've run all the scenarios.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (11:49)

And in terms of predicting the future, a lot of people think that science fiction can be about predicting the future with accuracy. But you've talked about it as more of exploring this range of possible futures, modeling different scenarios rather than making exact forecasts. And so how do you see science fiction helping us think strategically about where technology and society might go, especially with all the uncertainty. And then also at the same time, isn't it sometimes just a story for the sake of storytelling?

Kim Stanley Robinson (12:18)

Let me give you an example. You're with your eight clones. They're eight identical versions of yourself genetically. So you're like octuplets plus one. And then the spaceship crashes on landing and all of them are killed except for you. What's your experience at that point? This is an Ursula K. Le Guin story called Nine Lives. Well, that's. That's a new story. And it's enabled by the scientific advancement that allows us, if we wanted to, to clone embryonic cells. And so this is. This Le Guin story probably comes from the mid or early 1970s. So the idea of cloning stimulated the story. Now we got real cloning. And so when people talk about cloning now, the readers of science fiction have already run some scenarios about, well, would there be downsides? Or how weird would it get? And so you end up somewhat future shock prepared. You've got some shock absorbers in that you've thought about it in advance, you're not actually doing prediction. The real history is too complex to predict. That's what it comes down to. There are unexpected, random, contingent events that change everything. So science fiction turns into historical fiction in that it becomes about what that moment in history, what people thought could happen. And it still has interest on that level.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (13:57)

I'm thinking of science fiction that has inspired real world, new things. So for example, a classic example would be 2001 A Space Odyssey. That's often talked about as being a classic example of how science fiction can inspire scientific progress. Reportedly, NASA took cues from the film like ideas about spacecraft design and AI that really helped shape their thinking about real space missions. And then there are other cases where science fiction has influenced research. Have you seen moments where your stories or science fiction in general directly influence scientific innovation or research? And what's your view on the relationship between science fiction, storytelling and the scientific community?

Kim Stanley Robinson (14:44)

Well, it's a feedback loop. And I want to start by saying 2001 a space odyssey is a very great movie. It's weird, it's bizarre, and it's a combination of two artistic geniuses. Arthur C. Clarke was a working scientist and space scientists still talk about the Clark orbit, which is a geosynchronous orbit where radio satellites will be stuck permanently above one spot on the Earth because they're rotating at the same speed as the Earth in a high orbit. That's a Clark orbit. He was a working scientist with a visionary science fiction style that comes out of the King James Bible. And some of his stories will live forever, including the one that was the basis of 2001. So what you see there is someone who's knows the science and then speculates with kind of visionary freedom. Well, what if, what if we went to the moon and there was a, an alien radio transmitter there that made us go out to Jupiter, etc. Well, this gets crazier and crazier and it becomes a form of cosmic fantasy or what are, what is life in the universe? These big, big, big questions can come out of a small, almost detective story type origins. And then Kubrick was a wonderful filmmaker, a very strange and brilliant filmmaker. So the combination made for something good. Well, this is one of the great examples. There's a lot of schlocky, second rate examples because it's a very big genre of science fiction and you gotta love it for the, the bug eyed monsters and the, and the silly stuff. If you, if that kind of stuff puts you off, then you're not really gonna be a Lover of science fiction. And then, as I say, it's a matter of entertainment. Entertainment can be educational. Education can be entertaining. Aristotle said this. Berthold Brecht said this. It's a vision of what art is that is, I think, very important. And science fiction often illustrates it very well.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (17:01)

Yeah, I want to talk about your Mars trilogy for a moment. In your Mars books, a central theme is terraforming, which is deliberately transforming Mars's atmosphere, temperature, ecosystem to make it livable more Earth, like. Like introducing engineered plants to. To change the environment or something like that. And so how do you approach blending accurate science with these speculative ideas about, like, planetary engineering?

Kim Stanley Robinson (17:29)

Well, that's a good question. Teresa and I, it was sort of my. My mission for 10 or 15 years to do that very thing. And terraforming was a name. The science fiction writer Jack Williamson made it up in one of his super science stories in the early 1930s, when science fiction was like space opera all the time. And so Mars was given to us on a platter by Mariner and Viking. So 1969, 1976, we learned millions of times more about Mars than we had ever known before because of these satellite and landers. And lo and behold, the word terraforming and the idea of terraforming began to be discussed in the scientific literature at the same time that we learned about Mars. And this was not a coincidence, because Mars is, like, the perfect candidate planet. It's got lots of water. It used to be warm and wet. Now it's all ice below ground, and there's no atmosphere to speak of. Could you heat the planet back up and get a place where humans could live? They started asking this question in the 70s because they just had gotten all this data about Mars. So the two are tied together, terraforming and Mars. So as a young science fiction writer, I was looking at this new project, this new object of study, Mars. Wow. You could do more than Bradbury, because Bradbury, in the forties, writing the Martian chronicles, It was just a red dot in the sky. Now we had Valles Marineris and Olympus Mons, and we had a detailed landscape and a lot of facts and a bunch of scientists who were riffing on, oh, my gosh, how much heat would you have to apply, and blah, blah, you know, what kind of genetic bacteria would you want to introduce into the soil? And I just took all that stuff and ran with it. So I was really amongst the first and maybe the first to really go deep into the idea of terraforming Mars. And so that's why, you know, People are still interested in my trilogy, although now it's 30 years old and it's missing some new facts that we've learned about Mars that complicate the project intensively. But you know, that's the way it goes with old science fiction. It begins to look old.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (19:49)

And now we have NASA's Artemis program, which is about our return to the moon, but it's also kind of seen as a stepping stone to get to Mars.

Kim Stanley Robinson (19:57)

Yes, that's true.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (19:59)

Your Mars trilogy, it dives into a few different visions for the planet, from kind of keeping Mars untouched and pristine to transforming it through terraforming like we were talking about. And at the same time, your climate books kind of explore similar big questions about Earth's future. Can we keep our planet as it was, or have we passed that point and do we need to rely on technology solutions to deal with climate change? So when you write these stories, are you trying to answer these kind of questions or is it more about presenting possibilities? Because I feel like these are the questions that are on our minds right now.

Kim Stanley Robinson (20:36)

Well, it's true. We find ourselves in a, in a biosphere crisis of our own making. Think of the Earth's biosphere as our extended body, because it is. We depend on its health for us to be healthy as humans. So we've accidentally made it sick and don't need to go too deep into a blame game here. It was to a large extent accidental, poisoning them of a sort, a changing of the balance of gases such that we're heating up the planet much more rapidly than anything except for a stupendous volcanic eruptions or asteroid strike. So okay, we did that. Now we are cast into a situation where we kind of have to terraform Earth as a maintenance thing to keep it in a livable zone for humans. And that means climate interventions of various plausibility, expense, danger. And so what used to be science fiction stories is now present day history. And we see that in AI, we see that in robotics, we see that almost everybody, especially people my age, are cyborgs. In other words, we're half human, half machine, half. We've been kept alive by medical science and we are cyborgs walking this Earth. Science fiction gives us mental tools to think through these issues that are now staring us in the face and might in fact wreck the basis of civilization if we don't come to grips with them. Right. So I, I say often that science fiction has gone from being a kind of literary game, very fun, to really important human decision making, policy tool type stuff. We're in a. We're all in a science fiction novel now that we are all co authors together.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (22:40)

It's so true. And you had just said it's not possible to slow down the rotation of the Earth. And I immediately thought, which is not rotation of the Earth, but it's moving planet Earth or moving the sun. I was thinking of a stellar engine like a Dyson sphere.

Kim Stanley Robinson (22:55)

Yeah. And there are some things that are possible in the equations of physics that are not possible in human history.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (23:03)

I want to talk about a few films and books. Gattaca is one film and Minority Report. I think both of those have shaped how people think about the ethical and societal challenges around genetics or AI. Predictions. Maybe they acted as a warning about what could go wrong. And then in terms of books, Never Let Me Go by Ishiguro, that also explores these issues deeply through a more emotional lens. And have you seen science fiction raise awarenesses either publicly or within the scientific community about risks of certain technologies? And how do you think that these cautionary stories influence real world debates around innovation and ethics and topics like genetics or AI?

Kim Stanley Robinson (23:50)

Well, they definitely, these stories, movies and books, they illustrate ethical dilemmas. And so literature always did that. The, the, the game, the question in literature is how should we behave to be right with ourselves and good to other people? So these are ethics questions dramatized in scenarios. And literature has always done that. But as I said before, when the new situation, if there could be made, three of you and two voted to get rid of the third. Oh my gosh, the ethical dilemmas of genetic manipulation. I want a child that is like twice as smart as I am, or all those choices that we perhaps could make, should we be making them? Are they choices we should put off the table for ourselves entirely? That too is a choice. So all of the ethical questions of modern life that are changing daily because of scientific progress or the, what can I say, the possibility of scientific progress, that sometimes we say to ourselves, but wait, that actually isn't progress. That's just creating a dilemma that nobody can solve. And all these are stories. So if you're interested in telling stories, then suddenly science gives you on almost an infinity of new stories to tell.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (25:23)

Yeah. And you know, some of those choices that you were talking about, maybe as a hypothetical future, are on the table for us. There are a few startups that are giving like a polygenic risk score, like a statistical analysis of how likely this child would have heart disease or have, you know, athleticism or short stature or various things like this.

Kim Stanley Robinson (25:49)

Yes. But let's Run a story there right away and say you're parents. You go through this process, they've given you an embryo that you have been guaranteed is going to be fine. On these various scores, fine. The child is born five years later, something is drastically wrong that you didn't think was going to happen. Or even better, subtly wrong. Like, the kid is a little bit alien and eerie. So the story gets complicated, crazily and to the point where the reader might be thinking, hey, let's not mess with nature. Let's just do like people have done forever and have sex, have a child, find out what we've got. It'll be a new person. It will be. Nature knows best. So this is one of the most. Well, it's a joke, but it's one of the most fertile sources of good news story.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (26:46)

It sounds like a next novel in the making. If science fiction, as we talked about, can push the boundaries of what's scientifically plausible, it can imagine these futures that could reshape society. Do you think that you have an ethical responsibility to your readers when creating these radical futures? We talked about a few stories already. How much do you think about the kinds of social consequences when you imagine new technologies or societal changes in your stories?

Kim Stanley Robinson (27:20)

Well, I'm always comforted by the idea that it's just one story amongst others and nobody's going to read just that story and say, okay, this is the final word. So that said, I think all literature has a kind of a moral aspect to it. There's a moral to the story and that's simplistic. And there's a version of modernism that says, oh no, you can't have a moral to the story. The reader has to make their own judgment here. But the dice are always loaded. The the writer of novels is making a game out of considering moral questions. But questions of right and wrong are fundamental to what literature is doing.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (28:03)

I'm sure you read a lot of science, not fiction, but a lot of science news and current events. What kind of science do you read to get inspired in terms of news and like what's currently really, truly going on, and then also fiction. What are you reading?

Kim Stanley Robinson (28:18)

Well, I read all the scientific popular literature, Nature Briefing, Science news, eos, which is the magazine of the American Geophysical Union, and anything I can get my hands on. Bloomberg Green is very good on the intersection of climate and business and society. So it's like being a filter feeder. You just open your mouth and let the world flow in and out. And what catches in terms of good stories is a little random, but the more you take in, the more likely you're going to hit something that is important and interesting, which is the great combination for selecting a story.

Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (29:01)

Kim Stanley Robinson's latest science fiction novel is the Ministry for the Future. It imagines a near future where humanity confronts climate change in bold ways, and you can find that at your local library.

Kim Stanley Robinson (29:13)

Right on.

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Kim Stanley Robinson (29:30)

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

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Curiosity Weekly Producer Teresa Carey (29:55)

So let's just get one of everything.

Kim Stanley Robinson (29:57)

Everything.

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Curiosity Weekly Host Dr. Samantha Yamin (30:20)

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Kim Stanley Robinson (30:22)

Can I make my sight firmer?

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Curiosity Weekly Host Dr. Samantha Yamin (31:24)

California's newest beach regulars aren't surfers. It turns out they're sea turtles. In a twist that scientists did not see coming, the endangered Eastern Pacific green turtles are ditching their tropical homes for the waters of San Diego and Los Angeles. Their new migration isn't just a curiosity. It's a sign that wild sea animals are taking survival in a warming world into their own hands, or fins. The Eastern Pacific green turtles are the largest hard shelled sea turtles in the world and they typically like to stay in the waters around Hawaii, Mexico and the Galapagos Islands. I don't blame them, but over the years they've been spotted a ton by researchers along the California coast and it has scientists scratching their heads. You see, these turtles are now being spotted in large numbers close to the polluted waters of San Diego and Los Angeles, still far from their usual habitats and in a totally unexpected environment. Researchers from the national oceanic and Atmospheric association, or noaa, aren't exactly sure why these turtles are becoming California beach bums, but are quick to note that these waters aren't exactly welcoming to them. Their new waters are typically murky, busy with boats and polluted. The urban turtles have even been spotted in the San Gabriel river near downtown la, close to oil wells and power plants. Watch out turtles. The population bounce back could be because these turtles initially became endangered due to fishing practices in the Pacific. They were hunted relentlessly for their meat and eggs between 1950 and 1970, and they were frequently victims of bycatch. The US put protections in place in 1978, but Mexico didn't until 1990. So there are these theories that a group of turtles ventured further north during that time to find a new habitat away from the threat of capture. But since then, a lot more turtles have followed suit. More likely, the warming sea is causing seagrass, a major source of the turtles diet, to die off in the Baja Peninsula. The cooler waters of California don't seem to have that problem, with abundant seagrass, sea lettuce and algae in harbors and marshes along the southern coast of the state. So the change in venue is probably due to a mix of the increasing population size along with warmer temperatures and an abundance of food. The concern, of course, is that the polluted waters they're now hanging out in could cause disease and death. So far, research has found that there are some traces of chemicals and heavy metals in their blood, but there isn't any evidence yet. Showing that those are having negative side effects on the actual animals. Sea turtles eat low on the food web, so toxins don't accumulate in their body as much as if they were eating, say, a seal. This species of turtles has been around longer than the dinosaurs, so as surprising as it is to see them in a San Diego marina, we shouldn't be shocked that they're able to swiftly adapt to more favorable conditions after 100 million years of survival. Resiliency is the name of the game for Warner Bros. Discovery Curiosity Weekly is produced by the team at Wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is Teresa Carey. Our producer is Chiara Noni, our audio engineer is Nick Karismi and head of Production for Wheelhouse DNA is Cassie Berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha Yamin. Thanks for listening.

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Kim Stanley Robinson (35:03)

You look the same.

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But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

Kim Stanley Robinson (35:07)

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

Verizon Terms Announcer (35:10)

Selfies check please with Verizon. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro. Designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever. Plus a new iPad and Apple One. No trade in needed. Offer ends November 5th with a new line on Unlimited Ultimate Best 5G Swords. Route Metrics Data United States 2020 25. All rights reserved. Additional terms apply for all offers. See verizon.com for details.

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