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- [00:00]
Narrator
We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes. Nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With Alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today.
- [00:30]
TikTok Advertiser
Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business? Think again.
- [00:34]
Trey Farrow
We've generated over 100,000 leads, which has converted into over 40,000 sales for our pet insurance policies. My name is Trey Farrow. I am the CEO of Spot Pet Insurance, TikTok's smart AI powered automation takes the guesswork out of targeting, bidding and optimizing creative if I can advertise on TikTok, you can too.
- [00:53]
TikTok Advertiser
Drive more leads and scale your business. Today only on TikTok. Head over to get started.TikTok.com tiktock avoiding.
- [01:01]
Thumbtack Advertiser
Your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start? Thumbtack knows home, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte, paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today.
- [01:26]
Dr. Samantha Amin
We talk a lot about technology on this show, but now it's getting personal. Your Device Devices aren't just tools anymore. They shape how you think, focus, and even make decisions. Tech no longer just demands your attention, it anticipates your intentions.
- [01:43]
Dr. John Sujanja
The AI systems that we are engaging with, they are constantly shaping our perception, what we know around us, what we know about the world, and the way that we are making choices.
- [01:54]
Dr. Samantha Amin
Dr. Jansu Janja is an expert in AI and founded the AI Ethics Lab. She told our senior producer Teresa Carey that tech isn't just trying to hold your attention anymore. It's actually learning to predict what you'll do next. And that shift could reshape your sense of freedom and privacy. Look, I don't really need to be convinced here. I already often feel trapped in an endless scroll on my phone with ads that know me better than I know myself. And then my for you page has the nerve, the gumption to tell me what I'm doing is actually called revenge Bedtime procrastination. You know, when you stay up too late doing mindless stuff like doom scrolling couldn't be me. I don't do that. A lot of people might do this to get some me time in after a day of being pulled in so many different directions. Even though we know we're exhausted and we know we should be sleeping. I know you do that constantly too. We all do. Also, we've got an interview with the winner of a global contest called Dance youe PhD. Dr. Sula Ruka explains how he turned his PhD research into a full body experience that'll give your brain a much needed break. I'm Dr. Samantha Amin and pay attention. This is Curiosity Weekly from Warner Bros. Discovery. I'm going to tell you a secret that I really hope you can't relate to, but statistically you probably can. I am a major sleep procrastinator. Even when I've stayed up working late, I just can't shut my laptop and go straight to sleep. I need to do my full skincare routine, read a bit of my book, maybe do some online window shopping. And this type of behavior is so common that there's a term for it, bedtime procrastination.
- [03:30]
Dr. Vanessa Hill
When you stay up later than you had planned, even though nothing is stopping you from going to bed, even though you know you will be tired tomorrow.
- [03:39]
Dr. Samantha Amin
That's Dr. Vanessa Hill. She's a sleep scientist and science communicator. You may know her as the host of the Braincraft YouTube channel. She's studying why people put off going to sleep even when they're tired because about one third of adults in the US report they don't get enough sleep. Sleep procrastination isn't the same as staying up late because your kid is sick or you're on call at the hospital.
- [04:00]
Dr. Vanessa Hill
Is it bedtime procrastination if you are achieving another goal? Like if you're not going to bed to finish a paper or something that you need to write, like, is that actually procrastination or are you just achieving a goal?
- [04:15]
Dr. Samantha Amin
For whatever reason, procrastinating the sleep we need can have serious impacts on our health. Initially, researchers thought that people were delaying sleep but still getting the same amount of rest, like going to bed later and then sleeping in later. But Vanessa did a meta analysis on all of the existing literature that found sleep procrastinators actually do tend to get less sleep overall. And that's where the problem lies.
- [04:38]
Dr. Vanessa Hill
If you're chronically procrastinating your bedtime and you're sleeping like five hours a night or something like that, and you have this sleep deprivation buildup over the course of your life, then you're more likely to be at risk for diseases associated with cognitive decline and aging and things like that.
- [04:58]
Dr. Samantha Amin
Us procrastinators know it's bad, but we can't stop. Vanessa did an interview based study on 28 recent grads now in full time jobs to learn more about their habits. She found that procrastinating sleep sometimes comes from a need for me time or just because it's hard to fall asleep. Technology seems to have made it worse, especially for people who were already more prone to sleep procrastination.
- [05:19]
Dr. Vanessa Hill
Think about the reason why you were procrastinating your bedtime. Like do you just want to have fun? Do you need to wind down? Is it an anxiety thing for you? Are you going to revenge mode because you don't have enough autonomy at work? And just try to figure out like one simple thing that you could do during the day or maybe earlier in the evening to actually address that.
- [05:43]
Dr. Samantha Amin
Now if you're feeling called out, same, but there's no judgment or shame over here. I think I'm going to try Vanessa's advice and try to figure out the cause of my sleep procrastination. Let's see how that goes. DM me if you try something that works well for you.
- [06:00]
Narrator
Out here, it's not only the amazing views, but the way time stretches out a little longer and how the breeze hits just right at the summit. With alltrails, you can discover nature's best with over 450,000 trails around the world. Download the free app today.
- [06:15]
Thumbtack Advertiser
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows home so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today.
- [06:36]
TikTok Advertiser
Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business? Think again.
- [06:39]
Trey Farrow
We've generated over 100,000 leads which has converted into over 40,000 sales for our pet insurance policies. My name is Trey Farrow. I am the CEO of Spot Pet Insurance. TikTok Smart AI powered automation takes the guesswork out of targeting, bidding and optimizing creative. If I can advertise on TikTok, you can too.
- [06:59]
TikTok Advertiser
Drive more leads and scale your business. Today only on TikTok. Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [07:29]
Dr. Samantha Amin
You've probably been using sunscreen your whole life without really knowing how it works. Next week on Curiosity Weekly, we have Michelle Wong here, also known as Lab Muffin Beauty Science, and she's going to set the record straight. She explains what SPF actually means, what matters on the label, and why getting it right makes all the difference. You turn the TV on, you're watching HBO, and you start scrolling on your phone. Okay, it's 8pm and before you know it, you look up. Oh, an hour has gone, it's 9 o' clock. You look up again, it's 11pm Time is flying. You've wasted it and it's gone before you even know it. You live in what's called the attention economy. It's where social media and search engines are literally designed to keep us glued to our screens for as long as possible. But there's a new twist in this story. The intention economy. This isn't just about keeping your eyes on the screen. It's about predicting what you're going to do or even want next. Sometimes, before you even know it yourself, it really makes you think about what that means for your own choices, your privacy, or even how democracy holds up. Dr. John Sujanja is a leading expert in AI ethics and the founder of the AI Ethics Lab. AI ethics means making sure the people who build AI and use AI do it in a way that's fair, safe and respectful. It looks at who benefits, who gets hurt, and how the tech affects real lives. Your life. AI ethics keeps people in check and makes sure that the tech doesn't cross the line. Teresa Carey is our senior producer and she breaks all of this down with Dr. Janja.
- [09:03]
Interviewer
Thank you so much for talking with me today.
- [09:05]
Dr. John Sujanja
Thank you for having me. Thank you for inviting me.
- [09:08]
Interviewer
We've all heard about the attention economy, how apps and platforms like social media or search engines, they keep us hooked to keep us scrolling endlessly. And I think most of us believe we're in the driver's seat when it comes to our choices. But now I'm hearing about this new intention economy where companies are shifting from competing for our attention to trying to predict and shape our intentions. So let's say I'm chatting With my AI assistant maybe complaining about being stressed out, how might that AI jump in and predict that I want to watch a movie tonight and eat cheddar popcorn even before I've decided that I want to do this? Do you have any real world examples that you've encountered or heard of where AI predicts this intention and how does that raise ethical challenges or questions?
- [09:57]
Dr. John Sujanja
It is a little too much to say that it is predicting an intention, but it is really predicting a pattern that is really all that it is saying. You know, as much as we want to think of ourselves as super unique and very different from everybody else, most of our behavior fits patterns. So when you have a lot of information about how people behave, we are who behaves in which way, under what circumstances, it becomes much quicker for a system to say, well, this person is most likely fitting to this particular pattern. The system is just basically saying, you know, most people who are stressed, who are in this age group, who are in this socioeconomic background, you're probably going to go for a movie, you're probably going for a rom com because you've done this when you are stressed last time, you know, so it's not that mysterious. But if we think of ourselves as super unique, it becomes super mysterious. Of course. It's like, how did you predict me out of all people, me?
- [10:56]
Interviewer
Oh, but what if I'm trying to change the bad habit of watching a movie during the week?
- [11:01]
Dr. John Sujanja
I think that is where things get questionable once. The goal of an AI system is to make most accurate predictions about you all the time. The problem is that maybe we are not super unique, but we do want to have the opportunity to change ourselves. I mean, that is the whole point of the individual and collective human progress, right? Like, we want to be able to be different. And if we are just being not just being predicted, but almost forced into a pattern because other options are just being eliminated from our view, then it becomes difficult to change your life, to make progress, to be a little bit better than you thought you would be.
- [11:43]
Interviewer
We hear the term nudging, like when an app suggests to us what to eat or who to follow. So how do you draw the line between a helpful nudge and just manipulation?
- [11:53]
Dr. John Sujanja
If you think about it, the world that we are living through is completely designed because now AI can nudge us in so many different ways. That line between nudge and manipulation really does get blurry. And I think the only thing you can really say about this is that what is the intention behind the nudge then? Does it become a nudge for me versus a nudge that is making me do things that serves the profit of a corporation. That's one of the sad realities. So there are ways of keeping this balance between nudge and manipulation still under our control so that we can avoid the manipulative part. And that is not something that we are doing so well at the moment.
- [12:38]
Interviewer
And so you've worked with a lot of people, startups, government agencies, and you're trying to help them, hopefully to use AI responsibly. When things go sideways with AI, is it because usually of a technical glitch, or is it more about people not thinking through the ethical side of things early enough, having those what could go wrong conversations right from the start?
- [13:00]
Dr. John Sujanja
When we think about developing any sort of technology, we don't have to think about AI specifically. But why are you doing this? The goal should be, as a society, we agree the goal should be, it just helps with human progress. Maybe it's going to help us find new drugs, maybe it's going to make our resource allocation more efficient. So every time we are developing something, we are actually trying to create some progress in humanity and for individuals. If that's the idea, then ethics is really at the source of innovation. It is the reason why we are doing the innovation. The way to think about it shouldn't be we innovate. And then ethics comes in and checks us and polices us and tells us, oh, you were wrong, and points fingers. But it should really be, how can we work together with those who understand humanity, who understand what is better, what is good to create innovation that really is serving its function? And that collaboration, working early on together, by designing the right products for the right purposes, by minimizing its risks, that collaboration really results in good outcome. But oftentimes we skip all of that. We just go into, oh, can this system predict? Let's predict everything. Let's see how far we can go with prediction. And then ask the question, oh, what should we predict? Is it actually okay to predict somebody's educational success and then make decisions according to what we have predicted and maybe not make certain educational opportunities available to you because we predict we're just not going to be good enough? That sounds like a problem.
- [14:43]
Interviewer
And sometimes we can't all agree on what's best for humanity.
- [14:46]
Dr. John Sujanja
That is true. But I can assure you ethics is about analysis, systematic analysis and consistent, coherent analysis of our values. And humans are basically holding very fundamental values. Collectively, we all care about minimizing harm. We all care about some sort of benefiting humanity and individuals and the world. We care about our agency being able to act for ourselves and not being under the control of others or some structure. And we all care about some level of fairness. Again, however, we define that fairness. If we just go through a very rigorous, systematic analysis keeping those values in mind, what we will end up with is a limited set of right actions. We are still going to be so much better off than choosing from all of those other wrong actions that fall outside of that set.
- [15:41]
Interviewer
As someone who works on the ethics side of AI, how do you see this shift affecting our lives?
- [15:46]
Dr. John Sujanja
I think most of the time there are these impression of AI is a tool that we are using and we are in total control of it. And what is really happening is the AI systems that we are engaging with. They are constantly shaping our perception, what we know around us, what we know about the world, and the way that we are making choices. So what is more present in our mind? Well, if your social media keeps showing you certain information, then you would think that they are just more prevalent in the world. And if you think about, you know what, how we make decisions, we make decisions based on what we know, what information we are aware of. And one thing that AI has been doing very efficiently and very usefully, by the way, is that sorting the information, because there is just such a flood of information available around us, and that sorting that ranking always means certain aspects of what is available out there will just not be visible to us. So no matter how much we think that we are making autonomous decisions by just manipulating the information, I can manipulate what decisions you are able to make. The other one is this impression of there's nothing that can be done. This is how it is. AI is taking over, companies are using it, we are being subject to it, and there's nothing we can do. There is a lot that we can do.
- [17:11]
Interviewer
What are some of those things that we could do?
- [17:13]
Dr. John Sujanja
So the way that I often think about this and the way that I want to push us to think about this is more collectively, it is not on a single cup to make the right decision. It is just way too many variables to think about. But if law enforcement comes together and says to the technology providers, here are the questions that we want the answers for. What is the data that you use? What are the bias tests that you have put this through? Explain to me why you think that this system will be correct, accurate, and when it fails, on whom will it fail? Where will the impact fall? If we ask the right questions, we can put pressure on the vendors that will create this incentive structure with enough pressure. I think we are always weighting this pressure from either regulation or from individual action. Again, individual action. I don't think we as individuals should be burdened by continuous decision making and activism in every step of our life.
- [18:10]
Dr. Samantha Amin
Right.
- [18:10]
Interviewer
So it's almost what you're talking about is almost like a broad oversight checklist management, maybe like FAA for planes or FDA for medications that have some standard of safety that they have to reach or some standard of ethic that they have to reach that is agreed upon collectively.
- [18:28]
Dr. John Sujanja
Exactly. Exactly.
- [18:30]
Interviewer
And that doesn't exist yet.
- [18:31]
Dr. John Sujanja
That doesn't exist yet, yes.
- [18:33]
Interviewer
Is it going to exist?
- [18:34]
Dr. John Sujanja
I don't know.
- [18:35]
Interviewer
If you had a magic wand and you could change one thing about AI, about how it's built or used to better protect humanity, what would you do? And why would you think that's the most important fix right now?
- [18:47]
Dr. John Sujanja
If I could just change the approach to ethics from policing to collaboration, basically have everyone who is involved in innovation to understand that putting in place these asking the right questions at the right time is interesting and it makes technology better and more exciting, to be honest. So create this more what we call ethics by design. Right. Like making ethics a part of the design process and every ethical question being answered with an action item that falls into the design. And having the right experts involved at the right place with the ethicists working throughout this innovation process together, I think that would change so much that I don't think I need a fancier magic wand, honestly.
- [19:36]
Interviewer
And then having a magic wand then begs the question of is this free will or is this manipulation?
- [19:43]
Dr. John Sujanja
Absolutely. I mean, clearly I would have predicted my answer, by the way.
- [19:51]
Interviewer
Well, thank you so much for talking with me. This has been great.
- [19:59]
Narrator
Out here, we feel things. The sore calves that lead to epic views, the cool waterfall mist during a hot hike, and the breeze that hits just right at the summit. But hey, don't just listen to us. Experience it for yourself. Alltrails makes it easy to discover the best of the outdoors. With more than 450,000 trails around the world, points of interest along the trail, and offline maps for always on navigation, download the free app today and find your next outdoor adventure.
- [20:27]
Thumbtack Advertiser
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows home, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one you can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app.
- [20:46]
Paige
Download Today this is Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Ubereats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber eats it. The amount of times I've had to uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it On Ubereats. You can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost anything with Ubereats. Order now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.
- [21:48]
TikTok Advertiser
Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business? Think again.
- [21:51]
Trey Farrow
We've generated over 100,000 leads, which has converted into over 40,000 sales for our pet insurance policies. My name is Trey Farrow. I am the CEO of Spot Pet Insurance. TikTok Smart Plus AI powered automation takes the guesswork out of targeting, bidding and optimizing creative if I can advertise on TikTok, you can too.
- [22:10]
TikTok Advertiser
Drive more leads and scale your business. Today only on TikTok. Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads.
- [22:23]
Dr. Samantha Amin
A bright red unitard, a white lab coat tossed aside, and a dance floor pulsing with the heat of chili peppers and the icy crack pool of mint. If that doesn't sound like a science lab to you, you're in for a surprise. Sometimes it can be hard to describe your research to your friends and family, so why not dance it? That's exactly what the dance youe PhD contest is all about. And this year's winner was fire. Dr. Sula Ruka's dance video took top honors at this year's dance youe PhD contest from science, the Journal and the American association for the Advancement of Science. Ruka and his team made the science of chemisthesis dance. Chemisthesis is the science of sensing strong, even irritating flavors like hot, hot, hot peppers and the cooling mint of menthol. And let's just say Dr. Ruka wrought the heat In a tight red catsuit.
- [23:16]
Dr. Sula Ruka
Love that title of the dancing doctor.
- [23:19]
Dr. Samantha Amin
The dancing doctor's video was high camp, very Eurovision with high ponytails and hair whipping choreography. There's this one part where they're holding a pe and then dramatically biting menthol leaves. But my favorite moment had to be the trust fall to the slow mo outfit reveal where the lab coats come off to reveal sequins tops. Then the dancing doctor Sulo rips off tearaway pants into an all red onesie for a vogue moment. But of course it was still all about the science.
- [23:48]
Dr. Sula Ruka
Most of us might be familiar with the taste sensation and the smell sensation that we experience from food. For example, you may be familiar with the sweet taste and sour taste and bitter taste. But not many of us know that we also feel different chemicals through our somatosensory system.
- [24:12]
Dr. Samantha Amin
The somatosensory system is the part of our nervous system that helps us sense and perceive things in our world, including the five senses, but also pressure, pain, temperature and body position.
- [24:22]
Dr. Sula Ruka
My research focus on the chemisthetic perception in the mouth area especially and studying like what kind of impact individual differences have to our food related behavior. So one of good example about the chemisthetic perception is the hotness that you may feel from the chili peppers, from the capsizing compounds or the cooling sensation of the mint ment from the menthol compound.
- [24:53]
Dr. Samantha Amin
Spice coolness or astringency are all due to different molecules activating sensory receptors in our mouth.
- [24:59]
Dr. Sula Ruka
And you may also feel this mouth drying feeling that drying sensation called astringency that you may feel from polyphenolic compounds, for example from wine tannins or the tea.
- [25:17]
Dr. Samantha Amin
The dancing doctor wanted to figure out why some of us are more sensitive to spices or astringency than others. In fact, they had 205 human participants in their food lab taste different food compounds from spicy capsaicin to cooling menthol and astringent aluminum ammonium sulfate. This helped them come up with a new scoring system that helped them understand what it is that makes some people more sensitive to these strong sensations than others.
- [25:43]
Dr. Sula Ruka
So we found out that some of the background factors such as gender or age could explain some of the kinesthetic sensations and individual differences. Females were more sensitive to perceive that capsizing than men. You may feel start have this kind of like oxytocin or endorphins in your body system. When you are like having these extreme sensations, the burning sensation you might have like endorphins. Some of us might feel emphoria, but some of us might feel like, oh my God, this is burning my mouth. I need some milk.
- [26:26]
Dr. Samantha Amin
So whether you can bite into a whole pepper or survive the stinging chill of menthol, make your own dance floor, raise a glass of milk and go dance along to the dancing doctor's winning video. And remember, we love when people write in with science questions or topics that they want to learn more about. So please feel free to leave us a review on application podcasts and include some questions that you have and we'll try to cover them on a future episode. For Warner Bros. Discovery Curiosity Weekly is produced by the team at Wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is Theresa Carey, our producer is Chiara Noni, our audio engineer is Nick Karisimi and head of Production for Wheelhouse DNA is Cassie Berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha Yuin. Thanks for listening.
- [27:27]
TikTok Advertiser
Location the Lab Quentin only has 24.
- [27:29]
Dr. John Sujanja
Hours to sell his car. Is that even possible?
- [27:32]
Dr. Samantha Amin
He goes to Carvana.com what is this, a movie trailer?
- [27:36]
Dr. John Sujanja
He ignores the doubters, enters his license plate.
- [27:40]
TikTok Advertiser
Wow, that's a great offer.
- [27:42]
Dr. John Sujanja
The car is sold, but will Carvana.
- [27:44]
TikTok Advertiser
Pick it up in time?
- [27:45]
Dr. Samantha Amin
They'll literally pick it up tomorrow morning. Done with the dramatics?
- [27:49]
TikTok Advertiser
Car selling in record time.
- [27:52]
Dr. Samantha Amin
Save your time. Go to Carvana.com and sell your car today.
- [27:55]
Paige
Pick up these may apply this is Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber Eats it. The amount of times I've had to Uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it. On Uber Eats, you can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost anything. With Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.
- [28:56]
TikTok Advertiser
Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business. Think again.
- [29:00]
Trey Farrow
We've generated over 100,000 leads, which has converted into over 40,000 thousand sales for our pet insurance policies. My name is Trey Farrow I am the CEO of Spot Pet Insurance. TikTok Smart Plus AI powered automation takes the guesswork out of targeting, bidding and optimizing creative. If I can advertise on TikTok, you can too.
- [29:19]
TikTok Advertiser
Drive more leads and scale your business. Today only on TikTok. Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.