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- [00:01]
Bombas Comfort Line Announcer
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- [00:30]
Heygen Sponsor Announcer
This episode is sponsored by Heygen. Heygen turns a script, photo or presentation into a polished video of you in minutes. No camera or crew required. It's how real estate agents, financial advisors, attorneys and creators show up consistently on every feed and build a brand that brings in clients without spending their whole week making content. Rated the number one AI video platform for small businesses on G2, with the most realistic AI avatars in the industry, trusted by a community of over 30 million people and 85% of the Fortune 100, and built to work in over 175 languages so you can reach your audience in theirs. Here's the wild part. Record yourself for just 15 seconds and Heygen builds an AI avatar that makes professional videos for you on demand so you can post everywhere your audience is as yourself without filming every time. Your first three videos are free at heygen.com pod that's H E Y-G-E-N.com pod
- [01:24]
Danny Pellegrino
hi, it's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. As summer fades, your home deserves a reset too. Swap in warmer, richer scents. Brown butter, toasted spices, ripe orchard fruits. And let Pura fill every room automatically. Save 20% on every PURA fragrance subscription and fall in love with your home and the convenience of a monthly scent delivery. This year, scenting for fall is easier than ever. Head to pura.com to get started.
- [01:57]
Samantha Yamin
Hello loyal listeners. Sam here. We've talked on the show about the power of the algorithm and how we need to be more mindful of how we consume and support the media that we enjoy. So if you enjoy the show, send us some feedback so that it shows up on other people's feeds and they can enjoy it too. Tell the algorithm what's up. Thank you. History remembers space exploration mainly through the lens of the astronauts. We but there are so many other people who make this technological feat possible. Often their perspectives are missed as we focus on those who are sitting on the actual rocket. But that only gives us part of the story. So this episode we're joined by Dr. Tracy Scott, a sociologist at Emory University. She's the daughter of Apollo 15 commander David Scott and the director of the Moonshot Era Project, helping us understand the human cost of sending people to space. Before we get into that, we'll talk about a fascinating new discovery that reveals that early humans were sophisticated enough to perform dental work. And later, we'll look into a study that explores whether a long night of sleep is enough to help us offset sleep deprivation. My name is Samantha Yamin, and this is Curiosity Weekly. Let's get into it. Neanderthals are amongst the closest extinct relatives to modern human beings. Some think of them as simple cave people with cognitive abilities closer to primates than you or me. But a recent discovery hints that these early humans may have been way more sophisticated than we give them credit for. In a cave in southwestern Siberia, Researchers found a 59,000-year-old tooth with what looks like a hole from a drill. Upending what we know about the origins of dental work in humans. The team led by researchers from the Siberian branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences believes that a Neanderthal was suffering from int intense pain as a result of a cavity. Rather than suffering through that pain, someone seems to have fashioned a thin tool out of stone and went to work. This is now considered the earliest form of dental work ever discovered. They used drilling or rotating motions to create a hole in the tooth until it reached that tooth pulp and hopefully alleviated the pain. That was the researchers theory anyway, but they had to test it to be sure. So using a tool made from the same type of stone that they found in the cave, they replicated that drilling motion to create a hole in a modern tooth. Lo and behold, it took less than an hour to make that same hole. Scans and other marks on the tooth showed that the Neanderthals survived the procedure and kept using the tooth after. This discovery places the origins of dental work tens of thousands of years before we thought the practice first emerged. It reveals a medical and technological knowledge that many assume Neanderthals weren't capable of. It also shows a surprising amount of resilience and dexterity because the procedure itself would have been pretty painful for the patient and taken pretty complex hand movements from the person doing the procedure. Figuring out how to fix the tooth rather than just pulling it out suggests that some Neanderthals had sophisticated understanding of how the body works. It seems as though they knew that the short term pain of fixing the tooth outweighed the long term pain of keeping it in. Turns out wincing in the dentist's chair isn't just a modern experience. It's been going on for a long, long
- [05:20]
Heygen Sponsor Announcer
this episode is sponsored by Heygen. Heygen turns a script, photo or presentation into a polished video of you in minutes. No camera or crew required. It's how real estate agents, financial advisors, attorneys and creators show up consistently on every feed and build a brand that brings in clients without spending their whole week making content. Rated the number one AI video platform for small businesses on G2, with the most realistic AI avatars in the industry, trusted by a community of over 30 million people and 85% of the Fortune 100 and built to work in over 175 languages so you can reach your audience in theirs. Here's the wild part. Record yourself for just 15 seconds and Heygen builds an AI avatar that makes professional videos for you on demand so you can post everywhere your audience is as yourself without filming every time. Your first three videos are free at heygen.com pod that's H-E-Y-G-E-N.com P D O
- [06:13]
Edward Jones Announcer
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- [06:45]
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- [07:13]
Walden University Announcer
This message is brought to you by today's sponsor, Walden University. Set a course for Change now is the time to make a real change in your life, career and community. At Walden University, we give you the support and flexibility to get the W. Walden's online programs are designed for working professionals like you. You'll gain hands on skills to take on real world challenges and succeed. Your future is waiting and Walden is here to help you achieve it. Take the first step to make your impact, visit waldenu. Edu Walden University Set a Course for Change Certified to operate by Chev.
- [07:54]
Samantha Yamin
We love covering space on Curiosity weekly. And while we've talked a lot about the engineering feats, the new technology and leaps in exploration, there's this whole other world happening right alongside crewed missions. The families waiting at home, do they live with the constant fear of disaster? Like, what's it like to raise kids in that environment? The best selling book the Astronaut Wives Club told some of those stories about the Apollo era, the race to land on the moon in the late 1960s and early 70s. But now there's a whole new generation of families behind the Artemis missions, our return to the moon. So to help us understand the real human cost of the space race, I'm talking with Dr. Tracy Scott, a sociologist at Emory University who runs the Moonshot era project and who also has a unique perspective as the daughter of Apollo 15 commander David Scott. Thank you so much for joining us, Tracy.
- [08:48]
Dr. Tracy Scott
Thank you so much, Sam, for having me on the show.
- [08:51]
Samantha Yamin
Your research explicitly focuses on the human cost of that moonshot era. Can you explain what that means and tell us beyond, like, the physical dangers that astronauts faced? What were the most significant emotional or psychological burdens that their families experienced?
- [09:08]
Dr. Tracy Scott
Well, first, Sam, I would say that none of us at the time ever looked at any of this in that way. So at the time, I'm not sure that we would say there was any kind of burden. And part. So part of my research is trying to help people understand what, what that world was like at a very specific time and place. And this is kind of an origin story about astronauts and NASA and space and astronaut families. So we were so connected, and it was such a small community, and everybody in the community did the same thing. This was the first time people had been astronauts, and we all grew up with this, but our fathers had also all been test pilots. So all of the first astronauts were also test pilots and had had military background. So all of them had done something dangerous. In fact, way more dangerous than being an astronaut. And all of us had grown up in that. So I don't think anybody ever thought of it as psychologically stressful or burdensome. It was just the way you were, it was the way you grew up, it was the community. Now people think about that more because the landscape has also shifted in terms of things like mental health. The real human cost came later in a lot of ways. So during the program itself, I would say most of the families, most of the wives and the Kids just thought it was a really cool time. It was really fun. And a lot of the fun didn't even have to do with space. It had to do with all these other things. It was more afterwards that the cost was sort of realized, or we kind of figured out that there was a cost. And a lot of the cost came from the way that NASA and the media tried to make the astronauts and the families into celebrities. The fame aspect was the thing that was at the root of the human cost. Not the space stuff. Not space, not science. This was what our dads all, you know, it's what they wanted to do. It's what they went into. It's what their wives knew going into the marriages. It was much more the fame thing, which nobody thought about, that was the real driver of the costs.
- [11:35]
Samantha Yamin
Presumably that fame extended well beyond the actual mission period itself. And so is that when things kind of compounded.
- [11:42]
Dr. Tracy Scott
Yes.
- [11:42]
Adam Grant
So that.
- [11:42]
Dr. Tracy Scott
Yeah, the. And again, some of this is interesting. I'm a sociologist, so I study groups and communities and how specific they are to different times and places. And you've got to remember the media landscape at that time was so entirely different. There was no Internet, There was no way to know what anyone else was doing except through television. And there were only three broadcast networks, radio or newspapers and magazines. So those companies controlled the narrative much more than any of us did. Right. I mean, we had. In fact, one of my students in one of my classes said, you know, your moms were the original influencers, but with no control over their content. They didn't. People were framing them the way they wanted them to appear. So it was a really weird thing. Fame was so different then. And you had this projection to outsiders, but it wasn't the way you perceived yourself. After the Apollo program, all of our dads went on to other things. Some stayed with NASA for a little while, but that fame faded. Right. I mean, people lost interest. And yet the men had been treated in a way like rock stars. They had groupies. And that was really damaging. It was really damaging when you aren't prepared for that. Right. And there was no one explaining how you handle that to the men, to the wives. So there was an extremely high divorce rate. This was a huge, huge cost for the Apollo era. Huge cost.
- [13:23]
Samantha Yamin
When you compare the Apollo era experience with what we see in the Artemis era now, do you see that same type of pressure scenario or how has that landscape changed?
- [13:36]
Dr. Tracy Scott
That's a good question, Sam. And part of it is these astronauts knew that going in. They knew this was going to happen.
- [13:42]
Heygen Sponsor Announcer
Right.
- [13:42]
Dr. Tracy Scott
I mean, they have social media accounts. In some ways they don't have a choice, but they know that going in, whereas our dads and our moms didn't realize that was going to happen. So again, a lot of it's about control and it's about choice. So, you know, I'm sure different astronauts have different feelings about whether they like that or not. But they know it's going to happen and they, you know, they probably have more training. Our parents had no training on anything like that at all. Media is fragmented, so not everybody follows this. It's a smaller group that follows it. Right. The Artemis astronauts flying, they are much older than our dads were. I taught this class about this era last semester and my students were all excited about Artemis. So they were saying, well, how old were they? Because your dads were in their 30s, late 30s. Well, the youngest of the Artemis 2 astronauts was 47, much older. So their kids are grown up, right? Mostly grown up. We were really young, really young. So that's, that's, you know, again, that's different. You have to kind of look at those things. They don't fly as often now, so it's kind of different landscape. But I do think they also get more formal support, mental health wise, from NASA. So that's got to be helpful.
- [15:00]
Samantha Yamin
If it's appropriate to ask, how old were you during Apollo 15?
- [15:04]
Dr. Tracy Scott
I was 10. So I was.
- [15:05]
Edward Jones Announcer
Wow.
- [15:06]
Dr. Tracy Scott
Yeah, So I remember it, but I was little. From the time I was three, my dad was an astronaut and everybody's, all my friends, dads were astronauts. I didn't think about it. I just thought this is what everyone does, right? You don't think about it till you get to a place where not everyone works for NASA, not everyone is an astronaut. And then it's a really, really tough kind of sharp awakening that this is a different world. And again, with social media now, people don't have that. But at the time you had to go to a physical place that was different in order to understand that. And that happened for many of us when we moved away from Houston.
- [15:47]
Samantha Yamin
I'm just thinking about the fact that the whole families, the wives, as you mentioned, and the kids too, were involved. I'm curious if these days you still see that family unit involvement or if it's more like a focus on the individual astronaut.
- [16:02]
Dr. Tracy Scott
And that's a good question too. I don't know because I haven't really followed it too much. But I think, I think they kind of abandoned that notion of the astronaut family after The Apollo era, the media did. A lot of this had to do with the contract that the astronauts had with Life magazine. And that ended. So a lot of that, again, is shaped by historical things. And that all ended.
- [16:26]
Samantha Yamin
What was that? I don't know.
- [16:27]
Dr. Tracy Scott
The contract with Life magazine. Okay. So this is what helped sort of shape how astronauts were defined and how the kind of celebrity stuff happened. The origin of astronauts is in 1959 when the astronaut group one is selected and then group two is selected in 1962. Group three is selected in 1963. So that's kind of the core of the astronauts that flew Gemini and Apollo program. And it was kind of 30 astronauts total. And NASA knew that there was going to be media attention, right? They had a whole press off. They had a whole huge PR office. They knew this was going to happen. So they, you know, they tried to kind of manage that. But I'm not quite sure who. How this came about, but Life magazine was the kind of major national magazine at the time. It was a combination kind of a People magazine and Time magazine. And they offered a contract to the families for the family story, the personal story, as. So this was also a way. It was a little bit of funding. It wasn't a lot of money, but it was a little bit that would help the astronauts because they weren't paid anything extra. They were paid their military salaries. Yet when they became astronauts, they could no longer get life insurance on the open market. They couldn't get life insurance.
- [17:54]
Samantha Yamin
That makes sense.
- [17:54]
Dr. Tracy Scott
So Life magazine's like, we'll pay you a little bit. That will be like life insurance. And we will have access to your families and your personal story and no other media will. So the astronauts and the wives wanted this because it would help protect the kids, basically. So, I mean, we did have reporters on our front lawn all the time during the missions, but they couldn't approach the kids and ask us stuff because of the Life contract. And they couldn't ask our moms about personal stuff because of that contract. The only people who could ask us that stuff were the Life magazine reporters. And there was one main reporter who basically lived in our neighborhood. And she and the reporters under her were in our homes during the missions. Like in our homes 24, 7. Seriously.
- [18:42]
Samantha Yamin
Wow.
- [18:42]
Dr. Tracy Scott
It was. And we were friends with her. Fascinating. It was like she was embedded with the astronaut families as a journalist. But that was so different, right? So different than today in a way. That was protecting kids. Now, there's been legislation that protects celebrity kids now, but there wasn't that at the time. Right. So this was a way to help make sure that we didn't have really intrusive people trying to peek over the backyard and do stuff like that. So it got rid of the tabloid stuff.
- [19:16]
Samantha Yamin
I want to hear more about that side of things. Perhaps we should start with the moonshot era project. Can you tell us more about what you're doing there?
- [19:24]
Dr. Tracy Scott
So this is a larger project that actually started with my. My father's mission and the Emory center for Digital Scholarship, who created a website for the Apollo 15 mission. And they've digitized a lot of the mission documents. But that's not the science I do. I do social science. So I'm interested in the stories about the group and the community, the culture of the time. And I realized there was a lot of that embedded in the documents of my parents, specifically my mother, who died in 2016. She kept lots of things. This is how we do research for social science in historical time periods. You look at documentary evidence of what happened, and I realized there was a lot of that. So I donated her papers to Emory's Rose Library. So this is a kind of second part of the project. My parents papers are at Rose Library at Emory. But then I realized that there has not been a story told from our families from the insider viewpoint. So I started thinking about this when there were kind of reunions happening around the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11, the first lunar landing. And I started reconnecting with some of the other kids I grew up with. I started talking to some of the wives. And I realized there's a lot there as a sociologist about how this really small, unique community in this short period of time shaped us and shaped a historical era in a way that's extraordinary, really extraordinary beyond just the STEM science stuff. So that's when I decided I wanted to do the project about the families and what I discovered. Sam was the life journalist who I knew about. I discovered that she left her papers to Iowa Women's Archives at the University of Iowa. She was a very famous journalist and she kept notes on everything, all typed. There are transcripts of interviews, first person interviews with all of the first 30 astronauts, with many of the wives, her typed notes of her observations with us in the family, with the. With the couples. It's like she was an ethnographer of the time. That's what we call my research method. An ethnographer goes in and studies a group in depth, by observation and by doing interviews. And that's what she did. So I went to her archives And I have an enormous amount of data about our lives at that time, firsthand, first person. So this is what I'm now trying to work my way through. It's like stepping back in time. And I tell my students who use my parents papers here, when you go into the archives and you see these documents and you read them and you immerse yourself in them, it's like time travel, right? It creates the world for you. It's really fascinating.
- [22:28]
Samantha Yamin
It sounds like there's so much data you're still digging into it. Can you give us a sample of some of the findings? And I'm especially interested how it compares to your personal experience and memory of the time.
- [22:40]
Dr. Tracy Scott
It's really interesting. In fact, I had another student at another lecture I did say, is it surreal to read about your life at that time? It is. And yet she really captured it. So she wrote a memo to the reporters under her before the Apollo 11 mission. So with each of the three families, there was going to be one of the life reporters who would be in the home for the launch, for everything in the mission. So she writes a little sort of do's and don'ts list for all these reporters. What do you do when you're in their home? And she says if things are happening late at night and they ask you to stay, sleep on the couch. I mean, it's all this kind of really interesting, detailed stuff like that. But at the end of this memo, she says, don't ever forget that the heart of everything in that home is the squawk box. Now do you know what the squawk box is?
- [23:41]
Samantha Yamin
No.
- [23:41]
Dr. Tracy Scott
So this was a little like, it looked like a little radio thing, a little communication module that was on the ground that was hooked up to mission control. So it broadcast mission control communications with the spacecraft during the mission so that our families, we could hear our dads talking to mission control. Now they could turn it off if something happened, but it was on in the background the entire mission. I mean, I just remember hearing it crackle and pop and then you'd hear them talking and sometimes it would be off, but most of the time be on. So it kind of rules your life during the mission because you hear it, right? It's this kind of 24, 7 thing, it's like a livestream thing, only in this little box and it's only audio. So what she, she writes this amazing paragraph about the squawk box where she says that is the lifeline between these women and their husbands. It is this unbelievably Sort of deep connection that they have to the men during this mission. That's. That's kind of, you know, I can't summarize it very well. I need to go back and read it. But she's basically saying this is their life together. This one little kind of audio communication. And when it goes off, you can see them. They immediately kind of pay attention to it. This is their partner. This is the love of their life, whoever it is. And they're up there in space, and that's the connection they have with them. So it's a wonderful kind of observation of how important and emotional that one little box on the ground was during the mission, connecting the women with their husbands.
- [25:23]
Samantha Yamin
Last quick thing I want to ask is, what do you want us to take away from all this now that we're in another era of venturing back to the moon?
- [25:31]
Dr. Tracy Scott
That's a good question, too. You know, I loved seeing people get excited about how beautiful space is. It is beautiful. So humans went to the moon and they looked at the moon and they stepped foot on the Moon. But as one person, Norman Cousins, has this quote that says the kind of significance of the lunar missions is not that humans stepped foot on the Moon, but that they set eye on the Earth. It was seeing the Earth that mattered the most. Realizing, that's your home. It's the only color in space. Everything is black and white or gray. The only color is this little blue marble. And you think, that's where my home is. That's where my family is. That's where life is. Everybody's human. It's all of us are in this together, and we need to pull it together and work together. Right. We need to quit focusing so much on individuals and start shifting back to a perspective that sees community and groups and kind of the big picture a bit more.
- [26:37]
Samantha Yamin
Thank you, Tracy. What a thrill to get to chat with you, and I'm so excited to follow your work as it evolves.
- [26:43]
Dr. Tracy Scott
Thank you so much.
- [26:44]
Samantha Yamin
That's Dr. Tracy Scott, a sociologist at Emory University. You can learn more about her work at Tracy no E. That's T R A C Y L Scott.org tracielscott with two T's.org.
- [27:02]
Adam Grant
Hey, this is Adam Grant, host of Ted's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. This podcast is supported in part by Bill, the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results. One assumption many organizations rarely rethink how their financial operations actually get done. That's why smart leaders turn to Bill with AI Powered automation. Bill isn't just moving money, it's reducing the manual work of invoices and expenses for nearly half a million businesses. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with a platform built to evolve with you. Visit bill.com proven to talk with an expert about automating your business. Finances
- [27:40]
Wayfair Announcer
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- [28:08]
Paige from Giggly Squad
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Samantha Yamin
Prices and participation may vary.
- [28:37]
Mark Bittman
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- [29:10]
Samantha Yamin
Longtime listeners of the POD know your girl struggles a bit with getting enough sleep. I've been working on it, especially because experts we've spoken to on the show have emphasized how important it is for our health. While a new study gives me a little reassurance and maybe is slightly enabling, they found that if you have a short night's sleep, a sleep rebound might undo some of the damage. A sleep rebound is getting an extra hour or so of sleep the very next night. You may have heard before to aim for seven to nine hours of sleep a night, but of course, real life is messier than that. So scientists wanted to know what actually happens when the amount you sleep changes from night to night. A team led by researchers at Tsinghua University and Harvard Medical School dug into data from the UK Biobank, a massive long term health study and looked at over 85,000 people who wore motion detecting wristbands for up to a week. They found that on average, people slept about six and a half hours a night. Over a quarter had a day or more of less sleep. But of those people who had shorter sleeps, nearly half rebounded, making up for it with a little extra sleep the very next night. To assess the impact of that rebound sleep, they looked at death. Yeah, sleep is that important. Okay. People with shorter sleeps that didn't rebound were about 15% more likely to die of any cause over the next eight years compared to people who slept regularly. People who naturally sleep less than average were the most sensitive to this effect. Well, that's me. Even a moderate shortfall raised their risk. For people who normally sleep longer each night, though, it took a bigger sleep debt, like missing more than three and a half hours before that extra risk even showed up. The helpful news? People who did get a rebound sleep had a mortality risk much closer to regular sleepers. The catch up Zs seemed to buffer the loss. They also analyzed a second dataset from the US to see if the patterns held up in a different population, and they did. But we should add that this is an observational study describing two things that are statistically linked. It's possible that not bouncing back could be for some confounding reason, like an underlying health issue. The researchers warn that this isn't a hall pass to run on fumes all week and then binge sleep on the weekend. While catching up on sleep in general appears helpful, they show that the timing might matter too. So while it's not official advice yet, the simplest takeaway seems to be to protect your sleep when you can. But I may give myself a little more grace on the nights I can't and just aim to pay it back sooner rather than later. For Warner Bros. Discovery, Curiosity Weekly is produced by the team at Wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is Teresa Carey. Our producer is Chiara Noni, our audio engineer is Nick Karisimi, our fact checker is Lauren Coella and head of production for Wheelhouse DNA is Cassie berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha Yamin. Thanks for listening.
- [32:17]
Adam Grant
You.
- [32:23]
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- [32:53]
Lowe's Announcer
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- [33:00]
Danny Pellegrino
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Wayfair Announcer
back to school is busy enough. The last thing you need is shopping. That makes it harder. Whether you're moving into a dorm, your first apartment, or just getting organized for the semester, Wayfair makes it easy to get everything you need in one place. Furniture, bedding, storage, decor, study essentials all at prices you'll love with fast shipping. Before move in day get everything you need for back to school season. Shop wayfair.com today.
- [33:32]
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- [33:36]
Jake Stauch
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