Capital One Bank Advertiser (4:22)

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Matt from P1 with Matt and Tommy (5:26)

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Dr. Kaylee Byers (6:29)

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Dr. Samantha Amin (6:45)

When you think of wildlife, what do you picture? Perhaps lush forests, whimsical bogs, or sparkling seas. But even in cities, wildlife is all around us. Where I am in Toronto, for example, we're famous for our raccoons. But I see coyotes, skunks, possums, and honestly, mice pretty often. Whether we notice them or not, the health of urban wildlife can impact our own health. And the way we interact with them can teach us a lot about our public health system. To learn more about the interconnectedness at play here, I am thrilled to introduce the rat detective herself, Dr. Kaylee Byers. Dr. Byers is an assistant professor at the UBC School of Population and Public Health. She's also the host of the Nice Jeans podcast. Welcome to the show. Kaeli.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (7:30)

What an INTRO thanks so much for having me. What a distinct pleasure.

Dr. Samantha Amin (7:35)

It's always a delight to get to chat with you. You do so many different things, and with your research, you bring it all together, connecting topics that might not otherwise seem connected. So can you explain what One Health is and why it's so important for both wildlife and humans?

Dr. Kaylee Byers (7:52)

Yeah. So this idea of One Health is, is essentially that your health isn't just about you. Your health is also related to and intimately connected with the health of other people around you, the health of the animals in the environment, and the health of the environment itself. And what it essentially says is, like, you can't study any of those things really in isolation. You have to think about them as connected to each other.

Dr. Samantha Amin (8:15)

So since community is such a big part of One Health, what does that look like in practical terms when it comes to research?

Dr. Kaylee Byers (8:22)

Yeah. So I think when we're thinking about community within One Health spaces, the most important thing to ask sort of at the beginning is what are the priorities for communities related to wildlife health? You at the top talked about, you know, different cities have different wildlife in them, and different communities and rural settings will have different wildlife. And so understanding what those local priorities are is really important. The other thing, when it comes to wildlife health, that's really interesting. So here in Canada, we have the Canadian Wildlife Health Cooperative. It's a national network of folks who work in wildlife health science, and so they study wildlife health. And how do those samples come in? Well, that's mostly people reporting sick or diseased wildlife sending in samples. And so the public is also really engaged in that process. It's something we call sort of passive surveillance. Active would be, we're going out, we're purposefully sampling passive is folks are submitting samples or calling in. So the community is really important for understanding local priorities and then also sort of contributing to national work on this issue.

Dr. Samantha Amin (9:22)

And then I read something that you wrote about the gender dynamics in livestock vaccination. Can you speak more about that work and what you found?

Dr. Kaylee Byers (9:32)

Yeah, you know, this is a really new area of research for me, but something I also feel really passionate about and I'm excited about. And it was something that was inspired by work by Dr. Salome Bukachi at the University of Nairobi, and she come to give this talk here at the university. And we started talking about how vaccination can be such a critical component of protecting not just human health, but animal health as well. And when those animals are, say, livestock, they're also really important, say, for food security and sovereignty. For communities. But access to those vaccines really varies depending on where you are, who has access to them. And so we did a review looking at sort of these gender dynamics and found that women were less likely to have access to vaccines for many reasons. They had other responsibilities that kept them from being able to access vaccines. They might have less access to funds, less power in these circumstances. And so we sort of explored, okay, well, how could we do this better? Could you have someone come into community and actually give vaccines there instead of having to have someone come and say, leave caregiving roles to go get vaccines? But it all sort of points again at how complex these systems are. We need to think beyond even just like go out into the field and test animals for diseases or test people for diseases. It's what are the social determinants and ecological determinants that impact access to these resources as well?

Dr. Samantha Amin (10:54)

It's so cool because we talk a lot about social determinants of human health, and that's a big conversation. I mean, it could be bigger, but it is talked about in terms of human health. But then to think about the impact social determinants in humans have on wildlife or livestock and then how that then impacts us is just a really cool full circle, which makes sense because that's.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (11:14)

How the world is.

Dr. Samantha Amin (11:15)

Like, they're not separate, right?

Dr. Kaylee Byers (11:17)

Like, even think about income, right? Like income inequality. If you have a lower income, you have less access to funds, you might not be able to take your pet to the vet, which means that they also their wellbeing might not. You might not be able to care for them in that way. So you can also see that trickle effect out to animal health as well, related to social determinants.

Dr. Samantha Amin (11:38)

Now you're lovingly called the rat Detective. I think that's how I was first introduced to you. I don't know if you're still going by that title, but can you just tell us, like, why are or were you so obsessed with rats?

Dr. Kaylee Byers (11:50)

Yeah, you know what's really funny, Sam, is I actually grew up in Alberta, which is known as Canada's rat free province. And so coming to rats was really not ever in my life plans, I don't think. But, you know, I came to Vancouver to do my PhD, and I worked on urban rat ecology here and public health risks associated with rats. You know, I tracked rats in the field. I had a rat van. I tested them for diseases. I asked people about their experiences with rats. I did all these different things. And through that I just, I had many names. Rat detective is one. I gave Myself, I often got Rat Queen, which I didn't like as much, but Rat Detective felt more legit to what I was doing, which was essentially lurking in alleys observing rats. And so that's where it came from. And we still do rat work now. A lot of what we've done now is more shifting into the practical side of rat management. But I don't know, it'll take a while for me to give up that title. It's a good one.

Dr. Samantha Amin (12:46)

I don't think you should. I think you should own Rat Detective. You are the world's preeminent rat detective.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (12:51)

Thank you so much.

Dr. Samantha Amin (12:53)

Let's keep the title. Speaking of management, New York is famously overpopulated with rats. I think something like one rat for every three people. So what did you learn in. I think this was mostly your PhD research about the impact that can have on people and like how that impact varies across demographics.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (13:12)

Oh, okay. Well, first let's like just come back because you and I are both data girlies. We have zero idea actually how many rats there are in our cities. And that's because how we generally track rat infestations is like people will call into their local 3, 1, 1 line. As you can imagine, many people will never call. I've touched like 700 rats, have never called that line one time. You know what I mean? And so why are you catching so many rats? Because I caught them. I don't just go out and pet them. I was catching them for research.

Dr. Samantha Amin (13:39)

We don't recommend that, folks.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (13:40)

No, I do not recommend going out and touching your local rat. But there, you know, lots of people will never call. Again, that could be related to social determinants, whether or not, you know, even that you can call. We did some research in Chicago to find that lots of people don't know that they can call. And even if you do, maybe you don't think anyone's going to come and do anything about it. So there's a whole system around how we collect information about rats. We have no real idea of the numbers in our cities or if they're increasing or decreasing. We don't know. And we need systems to be able to answer that. But okay, let's say we have lots of rats in our cities. We know we have lots of rats in our cities. What are the impacts? Well, there's potentially several. There are sort of the disease associated health risks. Rats do carry a number of diseases that can make people sick. They carry bacteria, they carry viruses. One of the ones that is globally distributed is a leading cause of what we call morbidity and mortality. So illness and death in people globally is called leptospira. It is a bacterial pathogen transmitted in rat urine. They pee it out, it splashes into our city streets and we can come into contact. Especially if you have flooding water, you know, accumulating, washes up the urine. And if you have cuts, you could get it that way. It causes a fever, like illness in people. So there's lots of diseases they can carry. They can also pick up human bugs and potentially give them back to us. We don't really know. That's one of the challenges with those, what we call zoonotic pathogens, human animal associated things. In some of these cases, we might give it to them. Like shigella, for example. We found rats here can carry Shigella. It may have just came come from people. We don't know if rats spread it back, but they can carry these diseases and spread it in their feces, their urine, the fleas that live on them, the lice that live on them. There's one called rat bite fever. I bet you can guess how you get that one.

Sundaes Dog Food Advertiser (15:30)

Right.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (15:30)

So there's a few on the other side of things, they can also impact our mental health. So even just knowing that rats can make you sick, worrying about your children, if there's a rat in or around your home, your pets, it also spans out to, well, if you don't see anything being done about it in your building or in your city, well, then that leads to feelings of helplessness and hopelessness. Maybe you're less likely to engage in community activities where there are rats. So it can impact you that way. And then even beyond that, you know, they can, they can eat our food sources, they can contaminate foodstuffs, they can impact allergies. So they have a number of potential impacts on human health.

Dr. Samantha Amin (16:10)

I saw that you proposed the rat risk index to try to monitor rat populations better in urban settings. What should people know about that? Like, what's the purpose of that?

Dr. Kaylee Byers (16:21)

When we're managing rats, our focus has been very reactive and sort of see a rat kill a rat. Right. But doing that doesn't necessarily address the harms with them. We could have a whole hour long conversation about rat management and how effective it is or not. Right. But essentially when we're thinking about rat management, we're not actually that concerned necessarily about the rat as much as the harms associated with the rat. And based off of those harms, our approaches might differ. Right. So we know that folks are probably more impacted if they have a rat, say, in their home because of the health risks, the uncertainty, the unease. And so knowing that those are maybe higher risk spaces, how do we manage that? How do we ensure that landlords are held accountable, for example, for managing rats in our homes? What kind of improvements can we make to our homes to keep rats from getting inside? Making sure doors go all the way to the ground, for example? These are some actions. Harms in hospitals would be higher than, say, harms in other settings or harms in food establishments. And so all that together is to say that these harms differ depending on where you are, depending on the setting. And taking all of that into account is really important. So that's really what we're focused on here now, is trying to quantify what are these things we're actually concerned about with rats. And how can we develop a tool that cities can use to, to address their own local concerns and contexts in a way to support, you know, the overall health of their people, the animals and the environment?

Dr. Samantha Amin (17:56)

I think urbanization has often been seen as bad for conservation because you're reducing ecosystems. If I build a house here, that's like one less tree where a family of raccoons can live. But you have written about a need to transform urbanization into a tool for conservation. If I summarize that, right, can you explain how those things don't need to be in conflict? How can that be true?

Dr. Kaylee Byers (18:20)

Yeah, I think it kind of comes down to how we think about cities versus non cities. Cities are wild spaces, right? We have lots of opportunity for wildlife in our cities. There are some cities or some animals that do better in cities than others. But we do have lots of green space. So I think there are lots of opportunities to support wildlife in cities. And that comes through, say, greening, greening our cities. And then there's a whole other layer there to make sure that we have equitable greening of our cities. And greening of our cities isn't just good for wildlife. Having trees also cools them down. Our cities are getting hot, right? Like, having those green spaces are important for our health also. And so, yeah, I think we often think of urban as not an ecosystem, but it is. And there's so much that's going on here. And even as a biologist, when I came up, right, people would be like, oh, I'm going to go study cougars in the wild. And I was like, yeah, that's really cool. But then you look, nah, there's so much going on here that we can study to understand, like our most People are going to live in cities, right? By 2030, we're going to have most people in cities. And so understanding those spaces is also really important and promoting conservation within them is important.

Dr. Samantha Amin (19:32)

Are there any new tools or technologies from like genomics to things in the social sciences that are really promising for improving how we monitor wildlife diseases? They may be passing and just like their health in general?

Dr. Kaylee Byers (19:45)

Oh, that's a really good question, I think. So Genomics is, is a really exciting one and that's one that I used for studying rat ecology. So for example, understanding rat movement or animal movement in general is really important because it can help us understand how diseases may spread in a population, like how far an animal goes. And often what we would do is we would say put a collar on that animal and we would track it around where it's going. And I kind of tried that actually with, with rats. It was wildly unsuccessful. But you can also use genomics, you can look at how they're all related to each other and infer movement that way. And what we found here is that, yeah, rats seem like they mostly stay in a city block and we see this real clustering of disease. So at a city block level, most of the animals in your block might all have say, leptospira. And I could walk across the street and there could be a hundred rats and none of them would have it. Right.

Dr. Samantha Amin (20:34)

And so they're territorial, kind of like they.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (20:37)

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Dr. Samantha Amin (20:37)

Like, oh wow.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (20:38)

There's a really interesting study that suggests sometimes a bunch of males will move from one block to another block to mate. Any anyways, it's a wild. But generally they here at least they stick in their city block. And we're using this tool also in a, in another case, chronic wasting disease is this disease of deer. It's, it's a prion disease. It's been spreading across Canada and North America for decades. And we just had our first cases here in British Columbia in early 2024. And we're using population genomics to study, study how those deer are related to each other on the landscape to really understand how that disease could potentially spread. And what are more say, high risk areas where we might want to change certain management protocols or where would we prioritize. And so you can use really interesting tools like genomics for that purpose. And that also often does again, involve human involvement. Right. People submitting samples. In the case of say, chronic wasting disease, most provinces it's hunters and harvesters that are submitting samples for testing. So it's really all connected.

Dr. Samantha Amin (21:41)

Can you explain to folks how do you engage the community in that way? Because it can be difficult to authentically bring them in. And I know that's something you're really good at and do in a really unique way.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (21:54)

Oh, thanks. Yeah, I think that's also really new for me and I think what I'm learning a lot about is the difference between what is community engagement versus community driven work.

Dr. Samantha Amin (22:06)

Right.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (22:06)

There's lots of community engagement where maybe you have a question and you work with a community group on that. You know, we do long Covid research. It's very community engaged. We have, you know, advisory boards of folks. Actually, most of my projects will have advisory boards with people who are engaged in that topic, who help guide the research, which is one great way to make sure that community is part of that throughout the relevant, like the people who are involved in that question or who will be impacted by it. But I'm also really excited about, you know, what does community driven work look like? And that's, you know, where communities are determining the issues and how they are, how they are studied and what your role is going to be. And that comes down to long term relationship building. Right. Is like having those relationships so folks can come with those questions and ask about them and you can build those things together. So, you know, cliche, but marathons, not sprints.

Dr. Samantha Amin (22:58)

That's so cool. I can't wait to see what you all discover through this new approach to doing things and what you tackle next. So we'll definitely have to chat again in the future as things continue to ramp up. Thank you so much for being on the show, Kayleigh.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (23:11)

Oh my gosh. Thanks for the invite.

Dr. Samantha Amin (23:13)

That's Dr. Kaylee Byers, assistant professor at the UBC School of Population and Public Health. Catch her as the host of the Nice Genes podcast.

Verizon Advertiser (23:27)

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Capital One Bank Advertiser (23:56)

With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week. To assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

Sundaes Dog Food Advertiser (24:59)

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Dr. Samantha Amin (26:17)

Addiction is one of the most common but widely misunderstood conditions affecting people today. In the past, addiction was thought to be the result of a lack of willpower or even a character flaw. But that was very wrong and we understand addiction a lot better now. Scientific research has shown that addiction is a chronic but treatable condition that stems from ancient mechanisms in the wiring of our brains. So let's talk about it. There are two main types of addiction. There's substance use disorders where someone's addicted to substances like alcohol or different drugs. And then there are non Substance addictions, better known as behavioral addictions. These two branches are different, but the neuroscience behind them are pretty similar. Humans, in fact, many animals evolve to seek out pleasure and avoid pain as a way of survival. Things like eating or finding shelter from the cold, they make us feel good and tell us, hey, I should do that thing again. Our brain's reward system is wired to reinforce these behaviors to help us survive. And dopamine is a key learning and motivation signal in that system. But society today could not be more different than the conditions where this process developed. We've still got our old brains, but we're in a totally new environment. One where our dopamine levels are affected by more than just food and shelter. Scrolling on our phones, caffeine, gambling, drugs, alcohol, sex, laughter, shopping. These all directly or indirectly influence dopamine reward systems in the brain. And a lot of the time, especially in the case of substance use disorders, the dopamine levels are way higher and can happen very quickly. Now, if all of this feels kind of familiar, you're right. A reality show from back in the day called My Strange Addiction on TLC documented a lot of these patterns. And FYI, there are new episodes on HBO Max right now if you want to check them out. But our brains eventually get used to that dopamine surge, and they compensate by lowering the efficiency of signaling and availability of dopamine receptors. This is what happens when you build a tolerance to either a substance or behavior, and it makes it harder to satisfy that drive and feel the same as you did initially. It's also why we can't elicit that same uncontrolled belly laugh just by repeating the same joke. The novelty wears off and our brain's response diminishes. When the brain is in a more dependent state, it doesn't respond the same way to dopamine, so the behavior gets even more reinforced. With repeated use, the brain's baseline shifts. The substance or activity may no longer be about feeling good, but it might be required just to feel normal. That's why when it's stopped, withdrawal symptoms kick in, making people feel worse than before, at least temporarily. Supports are really important here, no matter the nature of the dependency. The good news is that the brain's neuroplasticity, which allows it to adapt, also helps the brain recover from these same addictions. There are lots of strategies to make the withdrawal process easier for long term recovery. While the brain readjusts. Addiction is a complex condition and often requires professional treatment and support. If you or a loved one is struggling with addiction. We've put a list of resources in the show Notes. For Warner Bros. Discovery Curiosity Weekly is produced by the team at Wheelhouse DNA. The senior producer and editorial correspondent is Theresa Carey, our producer is Chiara Noni, our audio engineer is Nick Kharisimi and head of production for Wheelhouse DNA is Cassie berman. And I'm Dr. Samantha. You mean thanks for listening.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (29:51)

Speaking of which, we didn't get a chance to talk about the fact that you wanted ants as pets growing up.

Dr. Samantha Amin (29:55)

You I really Weirdo.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (29:58)

And talking to a girl who had rats.

Dr. Samantha Amin (30:00)

You know what? I used to be afraid of spiders. Then I moved into an old house that has centipedes. Now I don't care about spiders. I literally see a spider, I don't even touch it. I'm like, you can just live here. I don't care.

Verizon Advertiser (30:17)

In a world where January is supposed to be boring, one staple of the holidays refuses to end the great deals at Verizon. The joy just keeps on coming. Right now you can save on four new phones and four lines. Critics agree it's the deal that keeps on giving. Come into Verizon and save on four new phones in four lines on unlimited. Welcome additional terms apply seeverizon.com for details.

Capital One Bank Advertiser (30:46)

With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet terms apply see capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching your insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

Mint Mobile Advertiser (31:44)

Say hello to Mia.

Dr. Kaylee Byers (31:45)

Hey there.

Mint Mobile Advertiser (31:45)

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Dr. Kaylee Byers (31:49)

Until I started using acas. I recorded my ad, targeted pet owners in the area and let ACAST do the rest. Now people all over the city know about my grooming services.

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Mia's business is looking sharp. What's your secret for happy pets and happy clients?

Dr. Kaylee Byers (32:03)

A fresh cut, a friendly vibe and a well placed podcast ad.

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