A Journey to Three Pines - Episode 9: How the Light Gets In

Summary

A Journey to Three Pines - Episode 9: How the Light Gets In

Released on April 25, 2025, by the Currently Reading Podcast hosted by Meredith Monday Schwartz and Kaytee Cobb

---

Introduction

In this special limited edition episode of "Currently Reading," hosts Meredith Monday Schwartz and Roxanna Kasamkara delve deep into "How the Light Gets In," the ninth book in Louise Penny's celebrated Three Pines mystery series. The hosts emphasize the necessity of reading the series in order to fully grasp the intricate plot and character developments discussed throughout the episode.

---

Book Details & Reception

Meredith introduces the episode by providing essential details about "How the Light Gets In":

• Publication Date: August 27, 2013
• Hardback Pages: 405
• Goodreads Rating: 4.48 (over 92,000 reviews)
• Awards:
  • Edgar Award nomination for Best Novel
  • Publisher’s Weekly Best Mystery Thriller Book of 2013
  • Washington Post’s Top 10 Books of the Year
  • NPR Best Novel of 2013

She notes that this installment is one of the highest-rated in the series, attributing its success to Louise Penny's masterful weaving of mystery, character depth, and emotional resonance.

Notable Quote:

Meredith (00:35): "We're talking about the mysteries, of course, but also about the characters we've grown to love, the gorgeous settings in the Eastern Townships, and all the deeper themes that Louise Penny weaves so masterfully into each story."

---

Plot Overview

Roxanna provides a compelling synopsis of the book, highlighting its blend of murder mystery and political thriller elements:

Roxanna (09:26): "How the Light Gets In is where everything comes together... Gamache is at his most isolated. His once loyal team at the Sûreté has been gutted. Jean-Guy is still lost to addiction and being used by Francoeur. Enter Myrna from Three Pines with a missing friend, Constance Pineau, paralleling the real-life Dionne quintuplets."

The story intertwines the present-day investigation of Constance Pineau’s disappearance with historical references to the Dionne quintuplets, creating a rich tapestry of suspense and emotional depth.

---

Writing Style & Themes

The hosts commend Louise Penny's nuanced writing style, emphasizing her ability to balance multiple plotlines without sacrificing pacing or emotional impact.

Pacing:

Meredith (19:06): "There is never a point where you are drumming your fingers, waiting for something to happen because it's gotten slow... it's all very, I mean, I don't mean downtime. I mean, there's never a point where you are drumming your fingers, waiting for something to happen because it's gotten slow."

Themes Identified:

1. Redemption and Resilience: The overarching theme revolves around brokenness and the possibility of redemption.
2. Community and Resistance: The villagers of Three Pines actively protect and support each other against corruption.
3. Missed Connections: Central to the plot are moments where characters almost miss pivotal connections, echoing themes from stories like O. Henry's "The Gift of the Magi."

Notable Quote on Theme:

Meredith (33:33): "In 'How the Light Gets In,' the major theme is how the light gets in the cracks where we are broken, highlighting redemption and personal growth."

---

Characters Analysis

1. Armand Gamache:

• Depicted as isolated and struggling with internal conflicts.
• Faces betrayal and corruption within his department.
• Exhibits resilience and moral integrity, culminating in his triumphant return in the final scenes.

2. Jean-Guy Beauvoir:

• A complex antagonist battling addiction and manipulation by Francoeur.
• His relationship with Gamache is fraught with tension, culminating in a heartfelt climax where Gamache's unwavering compassion leads to profound transformations.

3. Ruth (Ruth Vine):

• Portrayed with depth, her alcoholism is integrated into her character without reducing her to a stereotype.
• Acts as a pivotal character who facilitates Zhangi’s redemption by entrusting him with Rosa, symbolizing trust and healing.

4. Zhangi:

• Struggles with addiction and a sense of worthlessness.
• Experiences significant character development, ultimately finding redemption through connections with Gamache and Ruth.

Notable Quotes:

Roxanna (24:08): "Ruth is a fully formed person... she's got some growth. She's the one who saves Jean-Guy."

Meredith (73:06): "When Ruth hands Zhangi Rosa, it's a pivotal moment that signifies trust and the possibility of redemption."

---

Emotional Impact & Key Scenes

The episode highlights several emotionally charged moments that define the book's impact:

• Opening Scene: Audrey Villeneuve’s hallucinations set a tense and foreboding tone (02:00).
• Gamache’s Isolation: The portrayal of Gamache without his usual support system heightens the stakes (41:22).
• Elevator Scene: Isabelle Lacoste's perspective on Zhangi's devastation provides deep emotional insight (44:30).
• Climactic Confrontation: Gamache's whispered "I love you" while confronting Beauvoir underscores his moral strength (72:03).
• Final Revelation: The dual reveals of Gamache's strategy and the emotional reunions in Three Pines deliver a satisfying conclusion (77:35 - 81:34).

Notable Quote on Emotional Scenes:

Meredith (44:30): "It’s the moment where Gamache is about to be shot, and all he does is whisper 'I love you,' which is profoundly heartbreaking."

---

Superlatives

The hosts engage in a light-hearted segment celebrating their favorite and least favorite aspects of the book:

• Character MVPs:

  • Roxanna: John Gamache for his depth and resilience.
  • Meredith: Ruth for her pivotal role and emotional gravity.

• Least Favorite Character:

  • Frank Francoeur: Described as a terrifyingly well-written antagonist, embodying pure evil without redeeming qualities.

• Favorite Food Description:

  • Meredith: Clara’s simple yet heartfelt meal scene, emphasizing community and warmth.

    Meredith (85:02): "Clara made omelets with melted goat cheese... it was the perfect depiction of friendship and sanctuary."

---

Canadian Elements

Both hosts appreciate how "How the Light Gets In" encapsulates distinctly Canadian elements, enriching the story’s authenticity:

• Dionne Quintuplets Reference: Reflects Canada’s historical context, adding depth to the mystery.
• Quebec Construction Scandal Parallel: Mirrors real-life corruption investigations, enhancing the political thriller aspect.

Notable Quote:

Roxanna (64:56): "The snow in Three Pines feels like Canada itself—beautiful, silent, and occasionally harsh."

---

Final Thoughts

Meredith and Roxanna express their admiration for Louise Penny's dedication to the series, highlighting how "How the Light Gets In" serves as a culmination of the first era of the Three Pines saga. They emphasize the emotional and narrative payoff that rewards loyal readers, reinforcing the series' legacy.

Notable Quote:

Roxanna (91:36): "Louise Penny's Gamache books are not trivial to me. They're my dream come true, my legacy, my offspring."

They conclude by encouraging listeners to continue following the series, teasing the next focus on Book 10, "A Long Way Home."

---

Conclusion

"A Journey to Three Pines - Episode 9: How the Light Gets In" offers an in-depth exploration of one of the most acclaimed entries in Louise Penny's Three Pines series. Through thoughtful analysis, emotional reflections, and engaging discussions, Meredith and Roxanna provide both new and existing fans with a rich understanding of the book's intricacies, themes, and character dynamics. This episode serves as a testament to the enduring allure of the Three Pines universe and its masterful storyteller.

---

Connect with the Hosts:

• Meredith Monday Schwartz:

  • Instagram: @eredithmonday
  • Currently Reading Podcast

• Roxanna Kasamkara:

  • Instagram: @roxannethereader

Join the Conversation: Share your thoughts on "How the Light Gets In" and discover more book recommendations by following the Currently Reading Podcast every Monday.

Transcript

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Foreign.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Hey readers, welcome to A Journey to Three Pines in this special limited edition series from the Currently Reading podcast. We are doing a deep exploit exploration of each book in Louise Penny's Three Pines mystery series and we are getting deep into it.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

We're talking about the mysteries, of course, but also about the characters we've grown to love, the gorgeous settings in the Eastern Townships, and all the deeper themes that Louise Penny weaves so masterfully into each story.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

I'm Meredith Monday Schwartz, co host of the Currently Reading podcast and the Three Pines series is my favorite book series.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Of all time and I'm Roxanna Kasamkara, a Canadian reader and show regular on the Currently Reading podcast. I'm making my way through the series and loving it. In today's episode, we'll focus on how the Light Gets in, the ninth book in the series. And yes, the series must, absolutely must be read in order.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

No question it must be read in order. And you should make sure if you have not read how the Light Gets in, you may want to press pause and come back to it because this episode will be spoiler filled. We will not give away anything having to do with the series as a whole, but we will be discussing this book in great detail with all the spoilers. Okay, let's start out with a few details about how the Light Gets In. So it was published on August 27th of 2013. The hardback was 405 pages and as we sit here today, the book gets a 4.48 rating on Goodreads with over 92,000 reviews. I know this is one of the highest rated in the entire series, which makes a lot of sense. We'll discuss that further. All right. We are in the winter season here. In fact, we're at Christmas time. And as far as the awards that this book won, by the time we get to this part of the series, I have to think that every other person who is writing mystery novels at the time is sick of how many things Louise Binney is winning because she gets, of course, an Edgar Award nomination for best novel. She gets the Publisher's Weekly Best Mystery thriller book of 2013. And this book was one of the Washington Post's top 10 books of the year and it was an NPR best novel of 2013. So lots of critical praise for this book. As far as how it was reviewed, the New York Times said the only way to thwart the dastardly schemes, too dastardly for credibility of that monstrous villain, too monstrous to be true, is to set up a satellite link in the outside world. How can Gamache ask dear friends like Myrna Landers, who owns the bookstore, and Gabri and Olivier, the gay couple who operate the BNB to assist in the ruination of their village, Once met, the delightfully quirky inhabitants of Three Pines are the kind of people you can't wait to see again. And the characters Gamache imports from Montreal are peculiar enough to fit right in with the locals. But they all seemed better suited to the modestly scaled subplot. So the New York Times does not give a rave review, which is, I think, very, very interesting.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Wow, I'm surprised to hear that. Okay, Right.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Kirkus says, of the three intertwined plots, the Francourt scheme is the deadliest. And the Wylay saga will remind readers of the real life Dionne family debacle of the 1940s. But it's three pints, with its quirky tenants, resident duck, and luminous insights into trust and friendship that will hook readers and keep them hooked. And Publishers Weekly says, once again, Penny impressively balances personal courage and faith with heartbreaking choices and monstrous, evil. First printing of 300,000, which I will say is double the last book's print run.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah, and, you know, for Canada, remember, we're 1 10th your size. So at this point, she's already gone international. But still, for a Canadian author, that's almost unheard of.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Right? A 300,000 first printing is really, really big.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

All right.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

As far as I know, Roxanna, how the Light Gets in does not have two titles.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Right.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

We're just, we're working with one title, I think, from here on out with the series.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah, I have, you know, I have a copy right here. It's how the Light Gets In. I think by this point they've learned their lesson. And also she's famous enough and they're doing these big enough print runs, like they can't afford to have two different titles and people being confused about what comes next in the series when they're this far in. So I don't. I think that was just the first few books and then they kind of figured it out. And this one also. How could you call it anything else, to be honest?

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Absolutely. The title is perfect for this one. So what format did you read this book in this time? And how many times have you read how the Light Gets In, Roxanna?

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

So the first time I read this, I looked back at goodreads. It was December 12, 2021. It was just three months after I'd finished A Beautiful Mystery, which was Just three months after I finished A Trick of the Light. So as I'd said, I'd picked up the series, you know, back in 2013, put it down, you convinced me to pick it up, and now you can see, you know, this is a year into our friends. I am running through this series, Meredith. Like for me, three months in between is basically like just picking it up right away because I wait a little bit. So I. I was in it, I was on a tear. This time I read it digitally, which I really liked. As I said, I think I told. I said on the big show, like I like to read in the dark with, you know, it on dark mode and very quietly. And I went back because the writing in this one I enjoyed so much. I would go back and highlight and look at quot and then kind of move forward and then go back again. So I really enjoyed reading it that way. But of course I had my paper copy there to make quotes, to highlight quotes in and to kind of track my progress in as well.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Right. Okay. So this is your second full time through.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes, it is. And I remember the first time it being one of my favorites and kind of that heart stopping action. So I was really excited to get back to it.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Okay. By the time we reach this part of the series and then from then on in my initial reading, I was all caught up. And I was now at that point where we were waiting for a book to come out every year at this point. It came out in August, a couple of weeks from my birthday. And so I had already started kind of using this as a little birthday gift to myself to take an entire weekend once I got the book and just read it. So I have done it in print. That's how I always read her books. The first time through, I have done this one on audio and this is my third time through. We're now at that point in the series where up till now I had read each book four times. Now this is just my third time and this one I did a true tandem read. I did this on my iPad, which of course is the way that I like to do my close reads because I love to take notes, I love to do them color coded. And so the iPad gives me the ability to do that this time all the way through. I also listened to it using the whisper sync technology. So I just really gave myself that gift. Sometimes when I'm trying to go quickly, I don't want to do the audio with it. But in this case I was like, I've got enough time and I just feel that the best way to experience this book, these books for me now is to do that audio and digital close read. So I enjoyed it.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

So do you mean you read some of it in, like on your iPad and some in audio, or did you actually read on your iPad and then you had your earphones and listening to the narrator at the same time?

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

That so with. Right. So. So with Whisper Sync, if I've bought the audiobook through Audible and obviously the Kindle book through Kindle, then it just all syncs together. And so, yes, it was actually reading to me. And then I would just quickly pause it when I wanted to make a note or, you know, highlight something and then just hit the play button and go back to it. Now, I did have that at a faster speed. I do it. I usually listen to these at 1.5. Again, I want to be. I want to really be hearing the French and the French words and the names. But when I'm reading and listening at the same time, I do it at 1.8. So I did it that way. But I still feel like this is still when Ralph Kosham is reading. I really, really like doing it this way. I thought it was very helpful. Okay, let's get into the meat of this book. Roxanna, do you mind setting up how the Light Gets in for us?

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes, I will. I did it slightly differently this time. So listeners, tell me if you like this or not. Okay. Okay, friends, buckle up, because how the Light Gets in is where everything comes together. And I mean everything. If you've been hanging on through the heartbreak of the last few books, this one feels like the moment where all the threads start weaving into something absolutely breathtaking. It's Christmas in Quebec, but don't expect cozy sleigh bells and hot chocolate just yet. Gamache is at his most isolated. His once loyal team at the Surete has been gutted. Jean Guy. Oh, Jean Guy is still lost to addiction and being used as a pawn by Francoeur. And the corruption that's been simmering for eight books, it's boiling over. Enter Myrna, calling from our beloved Three Pines. Her friend, someone she won't even name at first, has vanished. That friend turns out to be Constance Pineau, the last surviving member of the world famous sets of quintuplets. Yes, totally inspired by the Dionne quintuplets in real life. Now almost completely forgotten, Gamache heads back to the village to investigate and slowly realizes that this seemingly small case is connected to something massive. Think political rot, dangerous secrets, and the literal List that could expose everything. This book is a blend of sharp edged murder mystery and full on political thriller, but it never forgets its emotional heart. The stakes are sky high, but so is the love. Gamache is fighting not just for justice, but for his soul, for Zhang Gui, and for everything he holds dear. And we the readers, are rooting for Gamache to come out of the other side with our hearts in our mouths until the very last, last chapter. Strap on your apple, watches your heart rate is going to soar while you read this one.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Perfect setup. All right, now we will continue our entering the book by reading the first couple of paragraphs. Chapter one. Audrey Villeneuve knew what she imagined could not possibly be happening. She was a grown woman and could tell the difference between real and imagined. But each morning as she drove through the Ville Marie tunnel from her home in Easton, Montreal to her office, she could see it, hear it, feel it happening. The first sign would be a blast of red as drivers hit their brakes. The truck ahead would veer skidding, slamming sideways. An unholy shriek would bounce off the hard walls and race toward her all consuming horns, alarms, brakes, people screaming. And then Audrey would see huge blocks of concrete peeling from the ceiling, dragging with them a tangle of metal veins and sinews. The tunnel spilling its guts that held the structure up, that held the city of Montreal up until today. And then, and then the oval of daylight. The end of the tunnel would close like an eye. And then darkness. And the long, long wait to be crushed.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Whew.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

I love, I love this beginning. And I just wanna say right up here at the top, because this is part of why we're doing this series. Because it enables us to see patterns that when you're just reading them one off and not thinking about them closely, you don't see again every other book she begins with a bang. We commented on the very slow, very dull entry into a beautiful mystery. Yeah, right. Like we were like, oh man, even the first couple paragraphs were boring. Yeah, this one, you know from the first paragraph that you are in for something totally different from a pacing perspective. And boy does she deliver on that.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

I think she really loves to play with and subvert readers expectations. Not just in the actual books, but just herself. She's like, they think I'm fast paced. They think I write thrillers. You know, I finally made it onto that New York Times, they called me a thriller writer, not a cozy writer. Now let me write it slow as humanly possible and really dive into the monks because I love the Monks now they think I'm slow and I can't pull a story together. Well, let me give them a banger. Like, I think she just has a bit of a rebel in her that she likes to do this to people.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

I think she absolutely does. I. We see that over and over again. So overall, Roxanna, I think we both just right at the top. Let's just get out of the way. The fact that we both really love this particular book in the series, I would go as far to say it's definitely in my top three, if not in my top two. And when I talk about Three Pines being my favorite series I've ever read about many of the books being books that I would describe as perfect. This book is one of those. Now you said at the beginning if you've been hanging on for all eight books, this one is when things start to come together. Of course none of us want to tell people it really is, but it is nine books in when it starts to become. I mean, it's been brilliant. It's now a masterpiece. To me, this is height of her powers. There is so much about this book that is pure perfection for this reader.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

I completely agree. Like, this could be like a book seven in a Harry Potter series. Right. It's not that you didn't enjoy all the other books leading up, but things kind of come to a head and come together here. That's how I felt. It's of course not the end of the series, but it does wrap up a significant. Like the first era, I would say, you know, of the Pennyverse, right?

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yes.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

And for me, now I'm. I have learned now I'm going to hold back judgment on what my favorite books are until I've read each of them twice. Because now that I'm reading them again, I'm seeing different things. But for sure, up until this point, this is my absolute favorite. And you know, I thought it was the brutal telling, which I really love, but I really love this one. And I will say, like, I was like, well, why isn't this my favorite book of the year? Like, I know it's a reread, but I know it's April, but am I. This is the best book I read this year and am I going to read anything better than this? Like, it really is a knock your socks off book and not just from a thriller perspective. That's what makes it a not. Like if it was just that, you know, she's shown. Yes, I can do that. But it's everything else that we're gonna get into that makes it a masterpiece.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Exactly, exactly. It hits on every level. And the brutal telling. I think it's interesting that you hearken back to that. One of my favorites, too. The brutal telling is where we begin to see when we have those first chicken skin experiences. Yes, we're beginning to really see it here. We're getting so much payoff, so much payoff from knowing these characters as well as we do from seeing them having gone through now some really, really big things and solved some really intense cases. And we've seen both ups and downs in their relationships with each other. There's so much payoff here. And I think it's really, really smart of you because I hadn't cottoned on to this before you mentioned it in one of our previous episodes. Is that really this book is the. The bookend to this first part of the series? Yeah, these books form a very particular part of the series. And in the next book we start, you know, a very. A very particular, but a different part of the series. So I love thinking about it in. In those terms. So from a pacing perspective, if we just start there, which is where I often like to start, because we are reading mysteries. This is a. We are in the mystery genre. And I think we do always have to start with pacing. And we know that a lot of her books are paced really well, but several of them are paced not very well. The beautiful mystery being the example of one that is really a struggle from a pacing perspective. But then this one, right on the heels of that, this book to me is perfectly paced because you're getting this A and B plot right, which we always have. But the way that she weaves these two together, the overarching plot, the Francoeur plot is what I'm going to call the A plot. And then the B plot is the Wylay Quintuplets one off. It's only going to exist in this book plot. The way that she weaves all of those pieces together the whole way through. There is never a bit of downtime. It is all very. I mean, let me say. Let me. Let me say. I don't mean downtime. I mean, there's never a point where you are drumming your fingers, waiting for something to happen because it's gotten slow. But it's not all up at the top where our hearts are racing, so we're interested the whole time. But we have these peaks and valleys. We have the humor, we have the village. We have some big swings of emotion and then some big swings of plot and she is just conducting it like a master conductor the whole way through.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah, I completely agree. Like, this book moves, but it's not in a frantic, plot heavy way. You know, where, like, the book with Samuel de Champlain almost felt like. Like there was almost too much going on in that one. You couldn't keep all the plot threads together.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Right.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

This one moves with urgency, intention. But there's this beautiful emotional current also that carries you from the first chapter to the last. And just exactly like you were saying, she's really performing a high wire act here, if you think about it, because she has this, like, boiling political corruption, the end of Quebec as we know it plot on one side, and then she has five baby girls born in a rural town in the 1930s. Like, how would you think. Like, yes, that's a great counterpoint, but, you know, how would you think that that plot B would be so you know when you got back to it, that it would keep you moving, right? And a lot of times what Penny's done, like, that bigger plot, I'll say, like the plot that's outside just this one book takes precedence. And then when you go back to the plot of the case, it like, okay, they found one clue now 78 pages gonna go by then maybe, okay, they found a red hat. Like, and I particularly complain about that. Cause I'm like, that case is not moving. But this one. Unless until we talked about now, I didn't realize. Oh, yeah, that's like, really about just how quiet that plot could have been and how quiet it is. But how she makes it, like, so much more. Right. And how she mirrors the. The big plot with it I thought was really, really ingenious. Like, this is where she shows the masterful writer she is that she balances both those plots so beautifully.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Right. She's spinning a lot of plates. And I have a theory about why the. The B plot, the we lay Quintuplet's plot was. I have. Well, it's two reasons. I think that it was such a great B plot. It was, first of all, something that was interesting and memorable.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Right?

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

It's a plot about Quintuplet girls that's interesting on its face, but she executed it in a way that heightened that B plot's ability to perform all the way through, because. And she's done this more than once, especially as we get further through the series where we get the beginning and we know the ending, so we know the girl the quintuplets are born. We know that at this point, one of them has been killed. But we have no idea what happened in the middle. But we're getting little breadcrumbs that make us say, but wait. What? Like just little breadcrumbs of wait. The girls didn't live with their parents. That's very strange. Or why were they hiding from the public? Why was it so important that they, their private lives be kept private? For those of us who had never heard of the Dion quintuplets.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

And of course, are reading the book for the first time. This plot line had enough. Wait, what? In it. And the way she delivered it was so perfectly breadcrumbed that it enabled them to leave it for moments, go to the francour a plot, and then come back to it. But it also was perfect because the intensity in and urgency of the two plot lines were so different. And I think that that is part of where pacing can go wrong in her books. Sometimes the two plots are both too slow, and sometimes they're too fast, too urgent, and then they fight. Here, these two plots were complementing each other in the best possible way. So from a pacing perspective, I think there's one other book in the series that I think it rivals it for best pacing, but this one, she is. She's at the height of her powers.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah. And those. Even those breadcrumbs you said, Meredith, like, they're not breadcrumbs you see from any other mystery author. Right. Let's watch a National Film Board movie from the 1930s and rewind this 30 second segment and see what we see there. Like.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Right.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

But no, it's really important. And like, I am, you know, at the edge of my seat trying to figure out, what is she trying to see there? Why did she throw that hat so viciously into the camera? What do those initials mean on that hat? Like, I'm in it. But those are not, you know, when you're reading kind of standard mysteries and they're going from person to person asking them. These are not the kind of standard clues you get. So you. You're right. Even in doling out those breadcrumbs, she was very strategic to keep you really guessing.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yeah. It's so incredibly well done. I really love. I simultaneously love and hate about my own brain that this is the third time I've read this book. And it was completely new to me, too.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Me too.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

And I've said this. This happens to me with all the books. It's why we're doing this, because it gives us the opportunity to actually read them closely and read them again. I completely forgot who the killer was. There were some clues that I picked up on, but as I was doing it, I was like, this must be. I don't remember the first time through picking up on this clue. So clearly my brain had squirreled away a few things, but it was as much a surprise to me as it was to anybody who the killer was at the end of this. Like, who, who had killed this poor Constance and Constance, yeah.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes. And I, I read it four years ago and was also like, was there another Quint? What's going on? Like, I had no idea.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

That makes me feel better. That makes you.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I honestly had. And because I realized I remember the feelings of books, so I remembered how I felt at the end. I have some vivid imagery, but honestly, I don't think I could have told you that the Quint plot was in this book until I started reading it. And then I was like, oh, yes, okay, this is this one.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

I remember where I was when I read this and I remember specifically about the quintuplets plot line. That's where I started to put together this concept that I've always had about the series of the oddness factor. Something we bring up a lot in the series that she puts together plot lines that are very unique, very singular that you just don't see in other books. And it contributes to why the books always feel fresh. Louise Penny is never doing something like, oh, the sister is missing, let's go get the sister. Oh, the five, you know, people who know each other are getting together and some they killed just the tired tropes in the, the crime fiction and mystery genre. She's pulling up some really odd things. And the Quint's plot line, although I didn't remember anything about it other than that there were the quints in it, but of course, what stuck with me most, and I think every reader would probably say this is the emotionality of this book. This book has some of the most intense emotional scenes in the entire series.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Well, and I will say I think Louise Penny has a few things that she's pulling on here. So I think first she gets these plot lines. Remember, she was a decades long career journalist for cbc, so she covered Canadian stories from all across the country. Strange ones, odd ones, you know, and ones that largely the American public has not heard about. Right. So this is where I think she kind of mines a lot of that. And frankly, most of the Canadian public, like, I don't think anybody past my age, like younger than me would know who the Dionne Quintuplets were. It's just too long ago. But she mines a lot of that. And then I think she has the courage to really mine her own experience and go deep. Like, and we'll talk about this later, but we see this with the Zhangi plotline, right? Like, she goes deep into her addiction experience. And I can say this because when I looked at some of the Goodreads notes, she specifically said that. But I think pulling some of that up, you're totally right. This is what makes it different from a thriller is that you can see she's really, I think now after eight books, by eight by book nine, she's more confident, she's more assured, and she's more gutsy. Right. Like, she is willing to go deep and share some of that stuff that maybe she was. She might have been holding on to before. Like, she's pouring that into Zhangi, right? And into, you know, all these characters. And I think she, like, you know, I found at the beginning of the book of the series, she used to almost like, you know, tell a lot. You know, like, she would. She would want us to notice the big ideas, right? So she would, like, do a sentence and then right afterwards she would repeat the sentence and then she would repeat it again, like line after line, kind of like a mic drop moment. And here she does less of that. You know, she lets silences speak. She lets glances and gestures carry entire conversations. You know, she has transitions between humor, sorrow and rage that are seamless. She hands. She has an old woman hand a duck to an addict and we all lose our minds, Right? She doesn't over explain it. She doesn't have a lot of language around it. But we're all. I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm crying in my pillow at that point. Like, there is just. She's gotten to a point where she can, you know, say so much with, like, it's like the deaf brushstrokes I find of a master, you know, with just a brushstroke, they're doing so much. And she's also learned, I find, to handle complexity better than ever. So it's multiple threads, multiple settings that before we were like, like, yeah, in that Champlain, Samuel de Champlain book, we're just like, what's going on here? And where there's too much here, here, she never drops a stitch. You know, I really feel like it's literary mystery writing at its best, how she's pulling this all together.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yes. And in fact, I. My notes here say just in the category of, you know, what did we think about the sentence level writing? And my notes say, her writing here is, no question, amazing. But the phrase that keeps going through my mind is that it isn't in your face.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

She.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

She's giving her words room to breathe, which is exactly what you're saying here, that she's okay with some silences, she's okay with letting things be. She's not feeling the need to tell us. My theory is that at this point in the series, with the awards and the reviews and the print runs increasing, I think there's a part of her at the center of her as a person that is like, look, if you've hung in through a beautiful mystery and you are still here with me, you are my people. These books are for you. I don't need to convince you of what they are or they aren't. But I also think that in. In a way, she's giving us some payoff in this book that is in recompense for coming along all of this time. So, you know, and. And I want to talk a little bit more about that. But first, let's talk about. Let's talk about the issue of theme. Some books, I find, are very deep on theme.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

So can I say one thing about the writing before we get there?

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Just because there was a quote that. A note she had made in Goodreads about this that was really interesting. And I'll just say, you know, not every author trusts their readers all the way through. They find, you know, they have to explain everything. I find by this point, Penny doesn't just trust the reader, she respects the reader to pick up on what she's doing. And she highlighted a little passage in Goodreads, and she had kind of her notes on it, and it was just so interesting to me. So this is the passage she highlighted. She'd spent hours sewing it. Time she could have, should have spent wrapping Christmas gifts for her husband and daughters. Time she could have, should have spent making shortbread stars and angels and jolly snowmen with candy buttons and gumdrop eyes. Instead, each night when she got home, Audrey Villeneuve went straight to the basement to her sewing machine, hunched over the emerald green fabric she'd stitched into that party dress all her hopes. And Penny says of this, in this scene, I needed to do several things. A certain misdirection. Enough said. Create a contrast between the Christmas treats and her obsession. And, of course, the mystery. Why was this dress so important to her that she was willing to give up so much for it? We find out later why and what sort of person Audrey really was. Enough said. Like, just in that short paragraph, she's trying to do so much. She's trying to paint a portrait of this person. Also set up the myst. Also do some, you know, plant a clue, like. And she does it with just that paragraph. Right. And she trusts the reader to pick up on all that. So I just find that. So, you know, I hadn't noticed that paragraph for the first time, but now I'm like, wow, she really is thinking, in a book this size, paragraph by paragraph, what do I need to do? What do I need to accomplish? How am I going to do it here? I think that's amazing.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

She's very aware of it, for sure. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about theme. In a lot of the books, Roxanna. I come through the read and I have, you know, five or six themes that I've identified, and I've got, you know, I've got quotes to back. Back them up here. I wanted to check in with you on this because here I didn't feel like this was a. I feel like there's one major theme, and I think it is how the light gets in the crack is where, you know, where we're strongest, where we're broken. The, you know, that concept of being broken and yet redemption being possible and coming through it better. Did you find any other themes here that I missed?

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

I mean, that was the big overarching one, I thought. You know, some books, especially the art books, I find, have a lot of subtle themes that you have to pull out. There's nothing subtle in this book. Yeah, because she wanted to be the big bang, so. Right. The corruption and power, which goes so much with that. How. Like, it's in the redemption. An interesting one I did find was community and resistance. Right. Like, Three Pines isn't just a cozy setting anymore. It's active. Right. The villagers are standing up. They're investigating, they're protecting, they're intervening.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

They're misdirecting.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Right. And they're misdirecting. Right. Like, that bistro is almost like a fort. Right. Where they come to protect and to defend and to also kind of come together and strategize. So I thought that was a really interesting theme because as of now, people have called her a cozy writer. Like, it's nice that she goes to this nice setting and has some cafe au lace, but here she's really talking about the power of community. Not just like, you know, found family and these nice Themes of like, love and. But it's like, no, actually fighting against evil and putting themselves at risk to fight against evil. So that was the first time I had seen that theme which I thought was really interesting for her to bring up.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

That is very, very interesting and leads perfectly into. One of the main things that I thought the whole way through is I kept in all caps in my mind thinking the village, exclamation point. The village as a setting. Right.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

The.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

The village as is such a character in this book. And this is the thing that in so many of the books, people want more of. Right. So again, we have multiple books before this where we're not in the village and people just don't like it. Well, here we are firmly in the village. We are there for most of the book. Our favorite village characters are key players, not just in the B plot, but they become embroiled in, like you said, that issue. They are. This is the first time that the villagers are being. When I say villagers, I'm talking about our key, our group. Right?

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

This is the first time that they are put into harm's way and they really are in harm's way here. And so everything related to, you know, the. Here we are back with the bistro. We've got lots of these scenes where we are, you know, sitting in armchairs. In chapter two, a few patrons sat in armchairs nursing cafe au laits or hot chocolates and they read day old newspapers in French and English. Even the fact that they're reading day old newspapers, it just underscores the. It doesn't matter. Everything is safe and fine here in the village. You don't need to know exactly what happened today. We'll catch up on it tomorrow. There's just this, you know, we're back in the bistro. We're back with the senses, the scents and smells of the village. It's bringing comfort to Gamache, who at this book is familiar, but he's still an outsider. And then of course, we get this idea in this book. Are he and Rin Marie going to move to the village? There's just so much payoff in this, in this book, right? Like payoff that we just really, really, really wanted. I love this, this quote, and this is all the way in chapter 10. Armand took a deep breath. The bistro smelled of fresh pine and wood smoke and a hint of candy cane. A wreath hung over the mantel and a tree stood in the corner decorated with mismatched Christmas ornaments and candles. And my note about that says, I love this scene so much it makes my heart hurt. Yeah, right. Like, there's just. She hasn't been giving us this comforting village stuff for a hot minute. And so it feels really, really good to be here. And I think part of what makes us want to hug this book is because if she had given us another book without the hug and warmth and protection of the village and the villagers, bringing Gamache in with him, being there with them, I don't know if a lot of readers, myself included, could have walked through the other pieces of this story where Gamache is on the outside at the surete, where he's being laughed at, where he's surrounded by these horrible people that have been brought into his department who don't even respect him at all, who laugh at him behind their backs, who. It's so disgusting and revolting what is happening at the srete that we really. Like. She loves us to give us the other side of that in the village. Like, there's really. I know in all of her books, we talk about the dark and the light. She doesn't bang us over the head with that theme in this book. There's a lot of books where that is the overarching theme, but here we still are getting it because we are getting this, like, ugh, awful stuff that's happening. But here Gamache can find respite in the village.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah. I think we needed to get three pines, especially after the last book. Right. In this kind of suffocating environment of the monastery. So I was so glad to get that. But I also really appreciated that she didn't just like. I mean, she would never do this, but, you know, some people use cozy settings just as a counterpoint to make the other stuff more palatable. Right. But she activates this community and she, like. And it's Christmas in three pints. But it's not like that, like I said, not like kind of the snowbell and wreath. Christmas. Right. We don't have villagers singing carols. We like. We have. We do. We do. But to lead the bad guys to the church, they're singing carols. Right. Like, she just uses. She still subverts all the expectations. It's a village, but it's almost an abandoned village. Right. Like, when everybody comes in, it's so quiet. They don't know where anybody is in the village. And, like, she's. She's giving us the warmth in the community, but then she's making it an active player in the mystery and these characters, you know that. Yeah, we've Been with for eight books are showing such depth of courage and of heart. Even Olivier and, you know, and characters that we, you know, we've seen these payoffs of these relationships, like Olivier and Gamache, Gabri and Ruth. Right.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

I love Olivier and Gamache in this book. I love. And again, doesn't hit us over the head with it. Yeah. She makes a couple of offhand mentions that if. I think if you were an animal and you hadn't read the other books, maybe you didn't even cotton onto it. Again, another reason why if you're just coming in, you're missing so much. This book is not a standalone. You're missing so much if you don't know all of this backstory. I thought that. That the way that Olivier really kind of leads that village resistance, he stands up and says, no, we. I mean, he's even doing some things at certain points that Gamache has not told them to do. He's just like, this is something that we need to do.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

The other thing is the village as misdirect again. And I keep revisiting this. Just the very fact that it's known to be a place that has no cell service at all, that can't find.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

It on a map. Right.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Can't find it on a map. If it's a satellite map, it's a dark spot.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Giving him cover to. Giving Gamache cover to do everything that he needs to be able to do. They think, oh, he's just in that village, that backwards village within. So it gives cover for Gamache and Therese and Jerome to be able to figure out everything that they. They need. So, again, yes, the village as its own force. You know, I don't want to say police force, but I don't want to say army. It's like this is the group that is caring for Gamache. Gamache feels so alone. Part of what is so painful about this book, maybe the number one thing for me that is so painful about this book is that Gamache is so. Without Zhang Gi with him. We're so used to the two of them being there together. There's just this sense of security having the two of them together. We know that they're going to be discussing the case. We know that Zhangi is always going to be kind of physically protective of Gamache. But here, Gamache is alone. And also, I kept thinking about this concept in this book of Gamache is almost a. He's putting himself forward by the end of the Book we know purposefully, but in the majority of the book, we don't know. He's putting himself forward as a wounded animal. He's alone, he's injured, he's on the run, he's outside of the force, he has no friends, he has no. You know, even at that point where Therese quote unquote turns against him. That whole scene, which of course they engineered. But everything about Gamache as a wounded animal. I love it when Louise does this. She makes us think that he's. He's not in control or he's. He's on the losing side, or he doesn't know what to do, or he doesn't know some big piece of information, but then you find out that in fact he does. And when he can come out of hiding and show that in fact he has known the piece of information or been in control of certain things or all of those pieces, it's such a, like, you just want to stand up and cheer moment. But there are enough times in the series where, in fact, he is on his back foot for real that she keeps us guessing. Yeah, right. Like, yeah, you can't just assume, oh, well, you know, he's. He's getting over on someone. Because there are some times when, no, he's just really. Things are just really bad. But not here. Here he is much more in control than he puts himself forward as being.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes, I. I think, you know, like you said, it's always Gamache and Zhangi. And when they're separated, I think there's a few not issues, but, like hardships for the reader. On purpose. Right. The first that you said this, Gamache is alone, he's a wounded lion. I think she actually specifically refers to him. You know, like, you feel like he's doing this kind of solitary thing. So you're walking his struggle, then you're walking Zhang Gi's struggle. And for me, that was the hardest one to watch. This guy being sent and then raid after raid after raid, and then they give him the pills after every raid. Like, I was just gutted.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

And they can't even stand up.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

He can't stand up. And they keep doing it because they literally want. Until he literally falls in front of them. They want to keep torturing him like that.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

And to that end, one of the next quotes that really stood out to me was on page 47. This is coming from the point of view of Isabel. This is when Zhangi and Gamache and Isabelle Lacoste find themselves all on elevator together. And it is so painful. Henri, with Henri, right where Henri licks Zhangi's hand. Just. That was a moment that got. That was a moment that got me. Because Zhang Yi, like, practically doesn't even want to wash his hand after that. But this line, this is from Isabel's point of view. She was standing in the ruins now amid the rubble, and most of it had fallen from Beauvoir. His clean shaven face was sallow, haggard. He looked much older than his 38 years. Not simply tired or even exhausted, but hollowed out and into that hole he'd placed for safekeeping. The last thing he possessed, his rage. He's being eaten alive by his addiction and by the rage that is being fueled by the people around him.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

And on top of that, Sonia are getting Gamache as the wounded lion. You're getting Zhang Gi as a shell. Not even if a shell of himself would be better than the rage, the shell of himself holding the rage. But then you're getting the interactions of the two of them, which are almost like, this is what I mean. You have to wear your apple watch where almost your heart stops. Like, whether it's where Isabelle says there. She realized that Gamache could have held on to Henri a little bit tighter, but no, he let him, you know, lick Zhangi's hand like those. And she doesn't give us more than that. That's all we need. But all the way to the end where Gamache is saying, I love you, Jean Guy. I love you. And Jean Guy is. Has a pistol to hit like I could. Those scenes of all these books, those are just the most heartbreaking, powerful scenes. That's what makes it so hard. Not only are Jean Gi and Gamache not together, but then the fact that they're both alone and that they can't connect is even though they're both so. They both so desperately need. It is so hard, and you need the payoff. Otherwise, I'm not sure we would. We'd be able to stay on for another book. Meredith, like, exactly, exactly.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

She holds the tension, you know, now through a few books, and she wraps it up in exactly the. The right timing. In fact, we. We even see the triumph that Francoeur has on. On page 344, he says, oh, this is that scene where Beauvoir is leading Francoeur and his people into three. Three Pines. He's physically driving, which seems like the worst kind of betrayal to me.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Violation.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

The fact that he drives them into Three Pines, right? Like. And. And Francoeur looked over at the haggard man behind the wheel Jean Guy Beauvoir held tight to the steering wheel, his face blank, as he drove them straight to Three Pines. And in that moment, I am always surprised by how angry I am at Zhang Gi for doing that. Of course, it ends up being the best possible thing that could happen because it puts him back in the village which begins his redemption arc. And thank God for it. But I do want to say, just kind of, before we get to some of those. Those ending scenes that are so filled with drama to go back to Henri in the elevator, this book is really, really filled with. You can really see how much Louise loves her dogs, her pets. There's. This book is filled with pets.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes. And not just filled with pets. From a surface level, like when she talks about Henri and his satellite ears and how he chomps down on that snowball. And the surprised every time, you can tell she has dogs she loves that are older, dogs that she has had for years and years and years, and she has a deep, deep connection with them that comes through like anything.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Absolutely. I love the line where Gamache and Ruth are talking and Gamache says, he's not a dumb beast, madame. And she says, I know that. Snapped the poet. I was talking to Henri, you know, which again, yes, there's so. And then, of course, what we see through Ruth's love and her connection to the duck, to Rosa, her pet, but really her salvation in a lot of ways. And how that lead. That leads to, you know, we see Henri licking junkie's hand is kind of the, you know, the very beginning of the. The cracking, but cracking in a good way of Zhangi, like the breaking through to the core of him in a good way. And then that's drawn all the way through with the scene with Rosa. But also the. It's very interesting to me how much there's a lot of humor in this book. There are a lot of funny lines in this book. And that's something that earlier in the series, I always felt like when she did dialogue that was supposed to be funny, it often came across as being really stilted. She could do other kinds of dialogue and it would be fantastic. But then she would try to be funny and I would be like, oh, why am I tripping over that? In this book, she begins to really nail the humorous dialogue, and we get quite a bit of it. I just. Every time there would be a gut wrenching moment in the book and she would follow it up with a lighter breath, you know, a place where we could take a breath and where things Could. Where we could get a little bit of a laugh. It felt really, really good in this book. It doesn't always have to be that way, but I just felt myself being grateful for it here.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah. Or like Jean Guy's riding up an elevator to the Surete. His. Henri's fart in the elevator.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Like, exactly.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

There's always something that you just helped lighten it a bit. I will say I liked the dialogue much better in this book. There were still some of this Gabri kind of making fun of his homosexuality that felt stilted to me. Like, it's like whenever he can make himself the butt of the joke and bring it up, he brings it up. And I just don't know if people talk that way and then somebody else will pile on in a jokey way. And I get it. But, like, if I was gay, would I bring it up every single time with all my friends? You know, it felt a bit like, you know, I'm not sure about that, but it's getting a lot better than it was in the first few books. For sure.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Absolutely. And also the issue, just to touch on it really lightly, I think here we got much less body description, especially having to do with Myrna. There's a couple, but they're much less flagrant.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

And they don't appear as much. So in future books, it disappears entirely, which is a good thing. It just occurred to me just now, I just put together that not only was Henri licking Gamache's, licking Beauvoir's hand in the elevator, the very kind of beginning of the resolution, or them coming back together, the reunification, but also it's Henri that leads Gamache to Emily Longpre's house, which of course ends up being the Gamache's house. So again, pets playing a very pivotal role over and over again. We see that throughout the series.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

And I also saw that with food this time. You know, we. We haven't had a lot of food in some of the other books. You know, like there was some in the monastery, but here I found that the meals, like we talked about this, the meals shared in Three Pines have meaning. Right. They were how these people connected, strategized. Right. Like you talked about in the bistro. They're having the hot chocolates or they're having a meal, and they're talking about what they're going to do, like the villagers. But even seeing. I love how she contrasted that to the meal that Francoeur and we find out the premier had. And she talked. You know, they have breakfast in a fancy place, and there's china plates, and the, like, butter knife is, like, exactly at, you know, a right angle or something like that. And even when they're breaking bread, just how precise and cold the food feels versus the, you know, Myrna's arrangement of a, like, hollyhock and a sausage, you know, like, just. You don't feel the warmth and the casualness and the friendliness of the food. This food is precise and cold and almost like part of the armor, the armor that they're using against each other. And it was interesting to me that she used food in those two separate ways, but in the same book.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yeah, absolutely. And I hadn't picked up on that, but that. That does seem really purposeful on her part. Lots more examples of meals. Like, I had a lot more like, ooh, maybe this will be my favorite meal. Ooh, maybe. But maybe this one. It was, again, another one of those things where I was like, thank you, Louise. We just really. I needed. I needed some of this in this book. One of the things that I wondered about Roxanna, and it really. Ruth is such a superstar in this book. We get more of her backstory, of course. We get. We get her softer side with Rosa. We get her wise and discerning side with how she really steps into the fray, steps into the void with Zhangi in a way that nobody else has. I mean, she's a real superstar in this book. And she's such an interesting character all the way through the series. Tragic and comic all the way through the series. In the same way that Gabri is always joking. The joke about Gabri from himself and everyone else is always about him being gay. The joke about Ruth is always about how alcohol soaked she is.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

So my question is, why is it, do you think that Louise lets us have this one very pivotal character who is clearly an addiction all the way through, and yet it is accepted as a personality trait. Not a problem. It is something that's funny, kind of sad, but more funny most of the time. And she's at the center of many of the most emotional parts. I just wonder why it is that Ruth is. It's okay for Ruth. I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I just think it's to be remarked upon that Ruth is so alcohol soaked, and yet no one's trying to solve that or change that.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah, that's really interesting because they do say, like, for breakfast, she'll have, you know, or they'll offer her a meal, and she literally will be like, no, give me the bottle and she'll drink it. So it's not like a funny. You know, she drinks a bit much than normal, like.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Right. No, she's.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

She, she. She's meals that are just alcohol.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

So she has meals. She drinks it. 8:00am yes. She's drinking from the moment she wakes up to the moment she goes to bed at night.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

The quote that made me think about is that this is Gamache and Ruth together, and Ruth is telling about her. When Constance Pineau came to Ruth's, like, knocked on Ruth's door, and Ruth, of course, said, go away. I've no desire to talk to you. And then Ruth says, and then she came back and she brought a bottle of Glenlivet. Apparently, she'd had a word with Gabri over it. Shay Gay, he told her, the only way into my home was through a bottle of Scotch. And Gamache says, oh, gap in your security system. But again, yes. And when. And once you see it. And I mean, obviously we're putting alcohol and Ruth together the entire time, but I just wonder why. Why that character? Because she's shown, obviously, to have problems or be a tragic character in some ways, but in a lot of ways, she's not. She lives in the village. She's surrounded by people who love her, care for her, protect her, put up with her being her worst self a lot of the time.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah, yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

They admire her, respect her, go to her for guidance and. And advice. Why? Why is she outside this bubble of addiction is bad.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah. Like. And I feel like if you ask the villagers, they would say something like, well, she's beyond hope. She's just, you know, Ruth is Ruth. She'll just be who she'll be. But to your point, she's not just a caricature of a character. Like, here, she's got some growth. She's the one who saves Jean Gi. She literally is the one who gives Zhang Gi her most precious possession and helps him find his worth in doing that. Right. So.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

And she doesn't do it by accident. She doesn't stumble into that.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

No.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

She does that full well, knowing that is the only thing that she can think to do, to reach out to someone that she cares about. This is a fully formed person.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes, yes. So you can't, you know, we can't use the excuse of she's a kind of a side character or a caricature of a character. So I do think, especially given Penny's obviously, experience with sobriety, I wonder why she, you know, and I know it's obviously the cliche of kind of the drunk poet, but just knowing in her own life how creativity and, you know, sobriety are so important, that's a really. I don't have an answer for that.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

I just. And actually, it had never occurred to me before reading this book this time. It never occurred to me before. The subplot of Zhang Gi losing his relationship with Annie is another one of those pieces of this book that just makes me cry. And that scene. There's. There's a couple scenes where Joong Gi is sitting in his car outside Annie's apartment, just sitting there. And then the scene where we see that Annie's doing the same thing. Yeah. Because up to that point, we don't know. We haven't heard what Annie's doing or how she feels about Zhangi or how much she's moved on with her life. That moment where she's sitting outside his apartment where. Where we. Where we get the first glimmer of, oh, she hasn't let go of him either. And we get that first glimmer of, wait, is there some hope of something again? It's just. It's so sad because everything has been taken from him, but at the same time, she's holding out just enough of a possibility that maybe he could reach out for it again, you know, and.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

That actually, now that you said I just had a light bulb go off in my head, that one of the big themes in this book is missed connections. Right? Like that scene. Those scenes remind me of the O. Henry story, right? Of, like, the Gift of the Magi. Like they're both sitting at each other's apartments, waiting for each other, those missed connections. But it also makes me think of Gamache trying to connect with Zhang Gi and just. He can't connect. They just keep missing each other somehow. Right. And then I think of the whole. The actual conspiracy of the bridge, and they think it's the tunnel, and they don't make it. They almost don't make it to the bridge in time. You know, those kind of missed connections of what is, you know, Audrey trying to say. Like, there's so many times when they almost miss it or they do miss it. And you just think, God, if only. If only Annie knew how Jean Guy felt. If only Zhangi realized how much Gamache actually loves him and didn't leave him, but loves him. If only they get to the bridge on time. And I think part of the payoff of this book is all those misconnections click together finally at the End. And then you feel like. Like the satisfying piece of a seatbelt coming together, you know, where you're like, okay, they're. They're connecting. Right? Like, who is it that said hell is missed connections? Like, it feels like that. And then you have those connections coming through, and it's like, okay, I. You know, now things are being restored.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Right. And I love it. And I love that, again, she's giving us. It's not all missed connections. There's. There's lots of connection. We're getting payoff. Right. Even when we talk about good old agent Yvette Nicole.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Another superstar in this book. Another person that he goes in to her little dungeony area where she has been placed and takes the thing that she has become really good at doing. Sitting in a dark room alone because she can't be trusted with anybody else and listening and spying on people, and then believes in her enough to believe that she can be trusted. And the whole time we're wondering if she can. I think the Yvette Nicole character is one of the most recurring arcs of the series. It just. It's fascinating to me the way that that character evolves over time.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

And not just. What I love is that Penny doesn't just talk about Yvette Nicole and that character, but also how that reflects on Gamache. Like, what I found so interesting here, because I, like, he picked up Yvette Nicole, and I was like, yes, I know she's going to deliver. Right. But then you have Therese Brunel, who really goes after Gamache and is like, look, this is your shadow side. This is your pride. This is your ego. And not only are you putting yourself at risk, but now you're putting us at risk. You didn't even ask us. You didn't ask me and Jerome if you could even bring her. And he's like, well, because I knew you'd say no. And he's. She's like, exactly. So I love that Penny. Kind of. Yes. You know, in the end, she's the silver bullet. That helps. But she doesn't gloss over the fact that Gamache has a weakness here and a shadow side. And he's trusting her because it's the only thing he has. But he doesn't trust other people enough to bring them into his decisions, and he just like. Or to, you know, share his intuition. So I thought that was really interesting.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yeah. And you know what makes me the most uncomfortable about that is because. And this happens in more than one book. In fact, there's one book that is almost entirely related to this, his shadow side of his Enneagram One. The reason that he does, it's not. It's less about trust, and it's more about the fact that he is positive that he is right to do what he's doing. And he doesn't want anyone else second guessing him because he knows that he's right about this and has and does bite him in the butt. And as a fellow enneagram1, I. This call out of you are not always right. There are times when you get things wrong, and it happens to Gamache. And every single time, I just want to. Oh, gosh, this is so uncomfortable. Because it really is. I mean, it's. It is the shadow side of an Enneagram One, and we really do see it coming into play. Ego can get into the. Can get in the way of these things. Luckily, with Yvette Nicole, it pays off in this. In this particular book. Another thing that strikes me about this book, Roxanna, is that this book feels especially and particularly Canadian. I know we've had other books that delve into Canadian history, but there were multiple pieces here. There's one. There's one line where this is at page 175. Their coats and hats and skates were neatly hung on pegs by the door. Hockey sticks formed a teepee in the corner. And it occurred to me, as an American reading that sentence, it occurred to me this is a really Canadian thing that, plus the quintuplets, plus several different things within. Within the book, just, you know, it made me want to say, do you feel that way? Does it strike you as being particularly Canadian, this entry in the series?

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

It does. And I will just say we have that teepee of hockey sticks right now on our main floor because Mika was out shooting this afternoon. It does feel Canadian. Part of it is that it's winter in, you know, a cold village, and so there's something there. But she does combine some very specific Canadian pieces. And this is the first time, Meredith, that I actually texted you as I was starting the book to give you some background. Like, usually I. I like just, you know, play it out, read it. You don't need the background. But there were a couple pieces here that I thought, no, these are actually important pieces. They were that, I think, help with the background. So I'll go a little bit into those. But first I will read a little quote and Louise's comment on that in Goodreads, because it ties exactly into what you're saying. So, Constance, this is coming From Constance. And she says, but this was the snow of her childhood, joyful, playful, bright and clean. The more the merrier. It was a toy. It covered the fieldstone homes and clapboard homes and rose brick homes that ring the village green. It covered the bistro and the bookstore, the boulangerie and the general store. It seemed to Constance that an alchemist was at work. And Three pines was the result, conjured from thin air and deposited in the valley, or perhaps, like the snow, the tiny village had fallen from the sky to provide a soft landing for those who had fallen. First of all, isn't that beautiful? Like only Louise Penny would think to take that white snow and then turn it into the soft landing for those that have fallen.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

It's beautiful.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

It's beautiful. And then she writes about that how well I remember the snow of my youth in the Laurentians of Quebec, exactly as Constance has described. They're becoming rarer now. So I wanted to capture not just the event, but the feeling. Such peace, everything white and clean, all sounds muffled. People sometimes ask why I live in a climate that can be so harsh. Besides the obvious answer that it is home, I also love four distinct seasons. And very few seasons are as distinct as winter, as beautiful and as brutal. So I just thought that was a nice sum up. And being Canadian myself, I can so attest to when that snow falls like a blanket and it's so quiet and everything just kind of. The hush of silence is so beautiful. So anyway, so I think that part was distinctly Canadian. But more than that, as you said, there's some very distinctly Canadian pieces here. I'd say they're more obscure even in Canada, so they're not things you would know about. Right? So like the Dionne quintuplets, for example. This is a deeply Canadian story. I learned about it in school, but one I don't think many generations, frankly, of Canadians know after me. And no, it's one for sure. If you're outside Canada, you don't know. So, born in 1934, the Dionne sisters were the quintuplets. This is before IVF. They were born to a rural Quebec family. So it really was a miracle, right? And it was during the Depression, and it was seen as kind of this miracle, but they were actually taken by the Ontario government and turned into a tourist attraction with over 3 million visitors watching them grow up in a quit land like. And when you Google it, you see exactly the picture she talks about with the doctors. You don't see the pictures of them with their actual parents. All the pictures that come up are with them with the Doctor. So Penny really pulls from that history with Constance and gives us a glimpse of what it means to be used by the state and then discard it. Right. It's so funny because it's. It happened in 1934, but it's so prescient to, you know, some of the celebrity, especially with children that's being done now. And I also. It was interesting she had a note at the back of the book. I don't know if it was in your version, but she specifically said in her acknowledgments, listen, I did not pull from the actual story of the Dionne quintuplets. Like, I took the surface that I just shared. It's true that they were taken. It's true that the. That the parents wrote letters to get them back, but all the other stuff she completely made up. So she wanted to very clearly say that, I think, to respect the Dion quintuplets as well and to say, you know, this was all made up and they're, you know, I don't know what went on in their house or what the. What the feeling was with the parents or any of that. I literally took the surface level and built on that. But I thought, what an interesting story. And then. Yeah, how interesting to parallel what celebrity in fame and isolation and parents using children. Like, what that can, you know, what that can do and what kind of. What that can fester. How that can fester.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yeah. Very, very interesting way into a murder.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah. And then the Quebec construction scandal, like, this is for sure one you would not hear of outside Canada. But this is true. So not the actual plot is not true. But there is, you know, the real. There was a Charbonneau commission set up in Quebec that investigated widespread corruption in the construction industry, revealing mafia ties, bribes, political payoffs, you name it. So she really, when I read that first, like that very first, you know, page that you said, I was like, oh, gosh, she's really digging into this. Right. So she's fictionalizing these events, of course, but the parallels are crystal clear. And so she, you know, isn't just creating fiction here. It's commentary. And it adds so much depth to the political thread. And really, you know, I love how this is the highest stakes that she has here. Right. So there's no, you know, the fact that Kamash is fighting against corruption in the. But also in the construction industry, and now that millions of people could die because of this corruption in Quebec, I thought was such a great way to take it and amplify it while still making it realistic and not like, not making it kind of too overblown because it's rooted in something real.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Right. And I. I thought it was really, really helpful reading it through this time with you, for you to give me a heads up on both of those two things. And we'll include a note, we'll include a link, the link that you gave to me about each one of those things so that, that can deepen your reading. If you want to dig a little bit into the. The real life inspiration for the A plot and the B plot. I love how she uses that. All right. As we near kind of the end of our discussion, of course, we've alluded a couple times, but those, those final scenes, those couple of final scenes about that especially have to do with the emotional fraughtness between Gamache and Beauvoir, which is really the heart of the heart of the heart of the story. We, of course, have to mention, like you said, that scene in the office where Beauvoir draws his gun, draws his gun on Gamache, where he shoves him into the wall. Gamache bangs his head up against the wall. And Stan, you know, Gamache is bigger than Shanky. He's bigger, he's taller. He also was wearing a gun.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Doesn't draw, doesn't. Keeps his hands down next to him. Doesn't do anything. And Beauvoir's got that gun on him, and all Gamache does is whisper I love you to him. I mean, that is the scene where I just had tears just streaming down my face. And I read that whole. From that part of the book all the way till the end, I think I read in one sitting, which I think most people probably do, because that last. Whatever it is, 20% or something, is so propulsive. But then, of course, Zhangi stumbles away from that piece and from that scene and then takes Francoeur and the other bad guys into Three Pines and stumbles away from what's happening there. And then he and Ruth find himself to find themselves together in the scene where Ruth hands him Rosa and where he says, you realize that I could snap her neck.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Says something like that. Which is a really odd thing to.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Say when somebody gives me their most precious thing.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

And she says really quietly, like I do, I think we're supposed to get that she's. Nobody's joking about anything here. She has no idea how far this person is sitting next to her on this bench is from the person that she's used to him being. And I think she's aware of the fact that we may be very far away. She doesn't really know, but she's hoping against hope that everything's going to be okay. And more than anything, she wants him to keep Rosa. She's willing to take that risk because she. She wants to keep Rosa safe. So then we get Zhang Gi ruminating on that. This is on page 386. The chief had. This is kind of the moment the chief had stared in the factory. The chief had stared into his eyes and bent over and kissed him on his forehead and whispered, I love you. As Gamache had the day before, when he thought Beauvoir was about to shoot him. Instead of struggling, instead of fighting back, as he could have, he'd said, I love you, Jean Guy. Beauvoir knew then that he and Rosa hadn't been abandoned. They'd been saved. So that moment where Ruth hands zhangui Rosa to keep her safe so that she can go and put herself in the line of fire, and she whispers to the duck, I love you. And he sees how true that moment is. That is the moment where the switch flips in his brain, and that is the moment where we get Zhang Gi back.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes. And I think it's also the fact that Ruth, this person who trusts and loves no one, right, outwardly, gives Zhang Gi her most precious possession, one that she lost, that she never thought she would get back, that she finally got back. And she trusts him with that, which I think, you know, he leads Francoeur in because he has no sense of worth anymore. He says, I don't really care what happens. I don't really care where Gamache is. Like, is he. I don't know. I guess he's in the schoolhouse. If he's not there, he doesn't care about himself. And I think this gives him, okay, you know, somebody cares about me still and cares enough to give me this. And so they love me just like Gamache loved me, just like all these people love me. And I think it's exactly what turns the switch and saves him, really. Like, I don't think that might be one of the most beautiful scenes I've ever read, because it is so understated.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

It is. And Zhong Gi and Ruth's relationship, they see in each other all. They recognize each other, and they also see in each other their worst selves mirrored back to them, but also the parts of themselves that they don't want to admit to mirrored back to them. So she trusted that because there's a part of her that understands Zhangi better than anybody else, because they see each other, they see themselves in each other. And I think that's really beautifully developed all the way through the series. Whether it's them, some of the funniest lines back and forth, them joking with each other.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

And then, like, how, you know, she calls him numb nuts all the way through the series. And then, you know, to these moments where they just are. They're so vulnerable with each other in a way that they aren't with anybody else. So thank heaven. And then, of course, thank heaven for the whole. I love the fact that we get that she doesn't often do things that are as dramatic as that very final scene where we kind of like, at. Gamache is going to the hospital and then, like, one year later, Right. Yes. We don't know. Like, we don't often get. I don't remember if it was one year, but there's. We have a time jump, right?

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Which we normally don't get.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Well, and what's key. Like, what's key about that? Because that other scene, it's second by second by second. Right. And all you see is Zhang Gi raises the gun and Isabelle Lacoste is going to shoot him, and she might shoot him and he might shoot Gamache. And all you know is that he's shooting Gamache. You don't know why, you just know he raises the gun and takes aim. And then that next chapter, there's a service in a church.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

And then she says, you think it's a funeral.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Right.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

The end of that. That chapter is. And then Armand Gamache fell, spread eagled, as though making an angel in the bright snow. In scene in chapter.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

And then it's like there's a. There's a funeral. And you're like, oh, my God, it's.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

It's so good. And then there are two reveals. Two reveals in this book that just made me, like, all the applauding emojis in, you know, all of them. The first one, of course, is when Gamache can finally reveal to Francoeur before he kills Francoeur.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yes.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

That he paused, making sure Francoeur was with him before he delivered. The coup de grace, the safety of public officials, the team that guards the premier. You yourself dismantled my department and spread my agents into every division. My agents, Sylvain, mine, never yours. I didn't fight it because it served my purposes. While your plan progressed, so did mine. Francoeur went as white as the snow. My people have Taken over those departments and arrested any agents loyal to you. The premier is in our custody, along with his staff. Had we been on water, this would have been called a mutiny. The announcement that I'd resigned was the signal for my officers to move in. I had to wait until I knew what you had planned and had proof. There was no response to your phone calls because there was no one there to answer. And those texts you received about the bridge, about the people picked up? Inspector Lacoste sent them. The bridge has been secured. Impossible. Frank Hoer says that just that whole moment where we get the reveal that this whole time Armand has been in control. He has had people completely loyal to him all over, working to stop. It's such a delicious moment where everything comes together, where it's the opposite of a misconnection. It's all the pieces coming together in the most victorious way. It's good triumphing over evil. In so. For so long, the last few books, we have felt that good is. And there's a. There's a moment in this book where, you know, Gamache says something like, maybe I've been wrong this whole time. Maybe justice doesn't bend. You know, the arc of justice doesn't bend towards good, or whatever that phrase is. Yes.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

That scene, that quote is so good.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Where he says that. And also, I have to say, just kind of bringing us in real time right now, as an American living in the world we live in right now in 2025, March 2025. I needed a moment where you think things are really bad, but it turns out the good guys have had a plan in place this whole time that's gonna save us all. And I just. It felt good in every fiber of my being. And then, of course, then that brings together the. The A plot perfectly. And then, of course, to bring together our emotional heart plot at that very end, the last chapter of the book, when we're so afraid that we're at St. Thomas's Church because we're there for Gamache's funeral. But it turns out Annie Gamache is coming down the aisle. Jean Guy is standing there crying as he sees her. But Annie is alone coming down the aisle, or she's with Ren?

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Marie.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Ren? Marie is taking her, like, oh, no. But then standing right next to him is his best man, Gamache. And it's like you're just getting another moment of everything coming together. This is why this book is almost everyone's favorite, because it just gives us the payoff that we have waited so.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Long For I can see so many people reading this in bed or in their frame, favorite chairs. And they get to that part and they're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And their partner, whoever's sitting in. In the room with them is like, what is going. It's just a book. And you just want to be like, no.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

It is so right. It is so much more. It is. I am living these people, and they're. What they're going through. It's. Oh, it's just. I just felt so grateful that she gave us so much payoff here. Okay, so let's move into superlatives, and we'll move through these fairly expediently here. So who's your character mvp? There's a lot. A lot of people who could be up for this.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

I know. I think, you know, I'm. As I said, I'm not going to spend that much time on these because we've talked about a lot of these characters. You know, I could have gone really obscure. But honestly, John G. Is my favorite, right? Like, it's John Gamache. Let's be honest. I can't pick anybody else. They're just the truth. He's been on a downward spiral for so many books now, and he claws his way back. And, you know, it all makes his return, like, just the guilt, the pain, the rawness. It makes his return to himself feel so earned. And you cheer for him and you cry with him, and then he turns around and sees Gamache. It just, you know, it just fills your heart, right? Like, I felt like I was at that wedding, that I was, you know, with them, and tears are streaming down my face. As, you know, Jean Guy danced with Gamache. I just.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Oh, my gosh. That moment, right.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

I just couldn't. My favorite character, by far. And then my low key MVP is Ruth and the townspeople. And when they do that little Thomas Crown affair, and they all dress up as Ruth, like Therese Brunel, I think, and Yvette Nicole. They all dress up as Ruth, who's like this discarded old lady that nobody cares about. And guess what? She's the one who does them all in. Like, I love that.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

It's so, so good. And she was my. Ruth is my character mvp. She's just there at every pivotal moment. And then, of course, that scene with Shaun Guy, I had as my biggest loser, Isabelle Lacoste. Because poor Isabel, she's living all the hardship that you described for the. Is the reader's hardship. She's living it every single day. She sees Gamache on his own. She's watching Beauvoir disintegrate before her eyes. She feels how bereft the two of them are to be apart. She's aware that her. The only thing she knows is that the department is crumbling, that all these horses ass people are around and screwing things up and doing horrible things. She really. Like, she's got the least information and the most emotional toll on her in a lot of ways, all the way through this book. So she's my biggest loser in this book. Not because she does anything wrong, but because I just. She just. I feel so bad for her.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Well, and you said, like, you're not just. She's not reading it, she's living it. And not only that, but she has to trust Gamache. Like, he tells her to do things. She has to do them, even though. And she does trust him implicitly to give her credit. But she has to be the one who takes out those orders. She's the one who has to trust not to kill Zhangi when he's aiming a gun at Gamache. Like, she has. You're right. She has a tough job. That poor. It's always the women.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

She's trying to hold it all together. She's trying to. And she has the least information. So. Right. She's really just having to skate on that trust. All right, favorite food description. Luckily, in this book, we had a few to choose from.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

We did. I'm gonna talk about my least favorite character first, because obviously it's Frankeur. Right. But I just want to say it's not because he's badly written. It's because he's too well written. Right. Like, you feel his chill on the page. Like, you just. You watch him manipulate and destroy without ever raising his voice. Right. He's got this terrifying quiet power. And it's terrifying because he relates to everybody and gets anybody on his side. Like, he's the ultimate toxic enneagram 3. Right. If you get to the very worst of it. And to me, you know, last time I was saying, like, is there a redeeming side? Like, no, he's the Dolores Umbridge of the Penniverse. That's just. He just is as evil as he can be and just. I'm so glad he's dead.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yes.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

I never want to read about him again.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Exactly. He is truly, truly abject pride and. And evil and narcissism. One of the. I can't remember. It's Clara or Myrna, but one of the women of the village as he Comes into the village, is like. Knows that he's a really. Like, Knows that he's a terrible person.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

But even says to herself, like, woof. That charisma, though.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah, exactly. Because you can't help it but, like. Oh. Know, it's. Most villains, like, you see them. You know, it sees. It's like, streams off of them. This guy, you know, it doesn't. And that's the scariest thing. Oh, my God.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

No, the devil looks. The devil's not an ugly troll. The devil looks like Brad Pitt.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

All right. Thank you for saying that, because, yes, that definitely needs to be noted. Okay. On a happier note, food description. My favorite food description, and I'm so grateful that we had a few to choose from, is this one, which is on page 198, and it's very simple. Clara made omelets with melted goat cheese, a tossed salad, and warm, fresh baguettes, completed the meal. They'd eaten in the large kitchen. And when the meal was over and Myrna made coffee and Ruth and Rosa retired to the living room, Clara had taken Constance into her studio. It was cramped, filled with brushes and palettes and canvases. What do I like about that? I love the fact that the meal is so simple. I love the fact that over and over again, what we see in Louise Penny's Pennyverse, and in the way that they eat is they're either at the bistro or they're at someone's house. But oftentimes it's not a planned meal. They just find themselves together, and they're just kind of making something simple and delicious, even though it wasn't like, hey, I'm having people over for a meal. I just like that. Very unplanned, casual nature. Myrna is the one making coffee in Clara's kitchen. Yeah, I just. There's something so familial about that. It just was delightful to me.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Yeah, it's. And that was the contrast with the other. Like the fancy meal. It is very like the fancy meal that Frankeur and the Premiere have. Right. This is. This is about friendship. This is about having permission in each other's lives. Exactly. And food is refuge and sanctuary. Right. And for me, it was the same thing. It's when they were going to go into. When Jerome and Yvette Nicole were about to start the attack. And then Gamache, at the last minute, he's, you know, Jerome is about to press the button to log in, and he says, no, let's give it one more day. And you're like, oh, my God. And then, you know, Jerome and Gamache go and sit in the bistro. They have a meal. It's like they regroup. They are with their friends, you know, and he says this is like a small kind of, like, respite, but it feels like a safe place. And they know the evil's out there, and they know they're going to attack it, but it's a little bit of, like, sanctuary and safeness. And they're sitting there and Clara's there, and they have their hot mugs of apple cider. It's just. And sometimes, like, you know, like, you were just talking about. The world is a crazy place right now. And sometimes when I'm in my kitchen and I have my hot coffee and I have my little bowl of porridge or whatever it is, like, I just feel like this moment I can hold on to and I can read my book and feel, you know, some peace. And I love that she does that and really make, like, makes that community so strong.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yes. In your. This is a dumb question, but I'm just. For completeness's sake, I'm going to answer this. In your opinion, is this book skippable in the series?

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Completely skippable. I think if you skip this one, like, after the eight books, and let's just hope now that if people are in this. This series, you know, clearly Penny is like. Like you just said, she. You're with me. You're my people. You're reading. I think this question we just, like, it's not, you know, you're in it. You're reading every book. Okay. Right. Just. You're reading every book, and you're reading them in order. And if you're not, I don't. I just. I. I don't want to hear.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

I can't help you. There's no help coming for you.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

All right.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Is. Is there any. So as to how this book fits into the series as a whole, as we said, this book really completes the first third of the series as we go on. And right now, I honestly couldn't even tell you.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

I.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

The titles of the books are. Most of them are really hard for me. They don't stick. They don't. Just a few of them stick in my brain. So we go on to a next kind of portion of the series, which is equally good and even better in some different ways. But I am so glad that we, you know, we've gotten to dig into this book, because what a journey these first nine books have been.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Can I ask a question, Meredith?

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yes.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

At the end of this book. Because you were reading them at this point when they came out, were you afraid that this was the end of the series? Just the way it ends? There's a wedding. Jean Guy, you know, Gamache. I think I would have been afraid, like, okay, is she done? Because it feels like this is, you know, and now we know it's the end of era one. But I don't.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

I think what I was feeling at the time was that the popularity of the series was really building. I probably always, with almost every book, have been afraid, although I've never been as afraid as I am right now that the. I am very afraid that the Black Wolf will be the, you know, the 20th and final of the series. I'm. I'm very afraid of that. But at this point, reading this, I think I was pretty sure that we were. We were building on something here. So. Yeah. Anything else that you want to say, Roxanna, before I wrap up?

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

I'll just say this one quote that Louise Penny has in her acknowledgments, and it's not a big quote, but I just thought, you know, we've talked about how much she cares about this series, and she cares about her readers, and she just says here, I have no children. These Gamache books are not trivial to me. They're not a pastime. They're not cash cows. They are my dream come true, my legacy, my offspring. They are precious to me. And in the age of one book a year, you know, you were talking the other day with Katie on the big show about fast fashion and fast books. To read that and to feel like, okay, like she's doing this out of pure love for Three Pines and these characters, just like we love them. There's just such hope in that and such. I just feel such a sense of surety now. I haven't gotten to the end of the series, so I'm not quite at the same place you are at, but I just loved reading that because it's like, you know, we love these characters, and she loves them so deeply.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. She is very, very devoted to them. That is our discussion of how the Light Gets in by Louise Penny. We are so glad that you joined us. As you know, it's been my dream forever to spend time talking deeply about these books, and it is a delight and an honor to be able to do it.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

We hope you enjoyed our conversation about how the light gets in and all things Three Pines. Well, drop the next episode of a journey to three pints in about eight weeks we'll be focusing on book 10, a long way Home and we hope you'll join us.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

If you want more bookish content, join us every Monday for the Currently Reading podcast where Katie Cobb and I talk about the books we're currently reading and we tell you exactly what we thought of them in a spoiler free way. You can find our show at currentlyreading Podcast on Instagram. I'm eredithmonday Schwartz on Instagram and Katie can be found Notes on bookmarks and.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

You can find me @roxannethereader on Instagram.

[Meredith Monday Schwartz]

Thank you so much for reading this fantastic series along with us. We are so happy that you're listening. The best thing you can do for us is shout out A Journey to Three Pines to other people who love Louise Penny. That will help us to find our perfect Three Pines audience. We'll see you next time on A Journey to Three Pines. Happy Reading, Roxanna.

[Roxanna Kasamkara]

Happy reading, Meredith.