Popcorn in the Pages - Episode 11: The Perks of Being a Wallflower

Summary

Podcast Summary: Popcorn in the Pages - Episode 11: The Perks of Being a Wallflower

Hosts: Meredith Monday Schwartz and Kaytee Cobb

Release Date: May 29, 2025

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Popcorn in the Pages, a spin-off from the Currently Reading podcast, delves into the world of book-to-screen adaptations. In Episode 11, hosts Shad Cascone and Katie Cobb explore Stephen Chbosky's acclaimed novel, The Perks of Being a Wallflower, and its 2012 film adaptation. This detailed discussion uncovers the strengths and shortcomings of both mediums, offering insightful perspectives for fans and newcomers alike.

Introduction to the Episode

Katie kicks off the episode by setting the stage for their analysis of The Perks of Being a Wallflower, emphasizing that this series is spoiler-heavy. Shad and Katie acknowledge the challenges in accurately spelling the author’s name, highlighting the varied attempts they encountered during their research.

Katie Cobb [00:48]: "This is episode number 11 of this series, but you can listen in any order. Today we are tackling The Perks of Being a Wallflower by Stephen Chbosky, which I spelled wrong in my notes."

Publisher Blurb: A Starting Point

Katie reads the publisher’s blurb for the novel, offering a critical take on its portrayal of high school life. Shad concurs, noting the discrepancy between expectations set by the blurb and the book’s darker themes.

Shad Cascone [02:09]: "And it's funny because when I was doing research for this, a lot of people talked about, like, how it's a lot darker than it definitely presented itself, especially if you went based off of that blurb."

Book vs. Movie: Key Differences

The hosts delve into pivotal scenes from the book and their translation to the screen. Shad highlights the iconic tunnel scene, praising how the movie captures the essence despite changes in the soundtrack.

Shad Cascone [07:13]: "The first time when Sam stands up and she's in the tunnel... they did a good job on that one."

Katie discusses the portrayal of Charlie's trauma and his relationships, expressing disappointment over how deeply these elements were handled in the film.

Katie Cobb [09:04]: "I felt like it was glossed over and nebulous in the movie... it was underplayed."

Casting Choices: Hits and Misses

Shad and Katie critique the casting decisions, questioning the fit of actors like Logan Lerman and Emma Watson for the characters of Charlie and Sam, respectively. They propose alternative actors who might better embody the nuanced traits of these roles.

Shad Cascone [24:55]: "I thought Logan Lerman was too attractive. He wasn't as gangly or awkward or weird."

Katie Cobb [28:33]: "It was too hot for Logan Lerman, too attractive for Emma Watson... Alison Brie could have been a good Sam."

Despite reservations, they commend the overall talent in the movie, acknowledging the ensemble's prowess.

Shad Cascone [35:19]: "There was literally everyone in this movie. Every role was played by someone... I was blown away by the amount of talent in this movie."

Reception and Ratings

The hosts compare the book and movie ratings, noting the book's high Goodreads score versus the movie's favorable reviews on Rotten Tomatoes and IMDb. Shad expresses a personal nostalgic attachment to the book, while Katie reflects on her evolving perspective as an adult.

Katie Cobb [45:31]: "I rated this book as read and I gave it five stars."

Shad Cascone [45:46]: "I gave it four out of five and I wrote next to it, Nostalgia."

Personal Reflections and Final Thoughts

Shad and Katie share personal high school memories, drawing parallels to the themes in The Perks of Being a Wallflower. They discuss the emotional impact of performing in orchestra and choir, emphasizing the enduring connection music has with their past.

Katie Cobb [54:59]: "I loved going to dances. I loved dances."

Katie also vents frustration over the added 20-year-later letter in the book’s 20th anniversary edition, feeling it detracts from the original narrative.

Katie Cobb [36:50]: "It was so pandering. It turned this book... into an after school special."

Looking Ahead

The episode wraps up with a teaser for the next installment, which will examine The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger and its 2009 film adaptation. Hosts encourage listeners to join their main podcast, Currently Reading, for more book discussions and recommendations.

Katie Cobb [57:06]: "If you want more bookish content, we'd love to have you join us every Monday for the Currently Reading podcast."

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Notable Quotes:

• Katie Cobb [00:48]: "Unlike our regular episodes, these ones are full of spoilers. We are going to spill all the tea..."

• Shad Cascone [07:13]: "The first time when Sam stands up and she's in the tunnel... they did a good job on that one."

• Katie Cobb [09:04]: "I felt like it was glossed over and nebulous in the movie... it was underplayed."

• Shad Cascone [24:55]: "I thought Logan Lerman was too attractive. He wasn't as gangly or awkward or weird."

• Katie Cobb [36:50]: "It was so pandering. It turned this book... into an after school special."

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Conclusion

In this episode of Popcorn in the Pages, Shad Cascone and Katie Cobb provide a thorough and engaging examination of The Perks of Being a Wallflower in both its literary and cinematic forms. Their candid critiques and heartfelt reflections offer valuable insights, making it an enriching listen for anyone interested in the intricate dynamics of book-to-film adaptations.

Transcript

[Shad Cascone]

Foreigners.

[Katie Cobb]

Welcome to Popcorn in the Pages. In this spin off episode series from Currently Reading podcast, we'll be exploring book to screen adaptations and what makes them great or awful.

[Shad Cascone]

In each episode we'll tackle the book, the adaptation and the ways they complement each other. And as always, we love a strong opinion as we definitely have them.

[Katie Cobb]

I'm Katie Cobb, co host of the Currently Reading podcast and I will read nearly anything but keep my screen watching to sitcoms and book adaptations.

[Shad Cascone]

And I'm Shad Cascone and I read exactly what I'm told to, just like a good book reading partner.

[Katie Cobb]

Unlike our regular episodes, these ones are full of spoilers. We are going to spill all the tea, so be warned if you have not read the book yet. This is episode number 11 of this series, but you can listen in any order. Today we are tackling the Perks of Being a Wallflower by Stephen Chbosky, which I spelled wrong in my notes.

[Shad Cascone]

It's hard. When I was doing research today on it, people spelled Chbosky however they wanted.

[Katie Cobb]

Apparently every single way.

[Shad Cascone]

None of them were the same and they were mostly all wrong.

[Katie Cobb]

So mine says Chobsky.

[Shad Cascone]

Oh, maybe I'll blame autocorrect. How does that sound?

[Katie Cobb]

Okay, let's talk about the setup for this book. I am going to read the publisher blurb and then I'm going to tear it apart because I hate it. So here's what the publisher says about it. This is the story of what it's like to grow up in high school. More intimate than a diary. Charlie's letters are singular and unique, hilarious and devastating. We may not know where he lives. We may not know to whom he is writing. All we know is the world he shares. Caught between trying to live his life and trying to run from it puts him on a strange course through uncharted territory. The world of first dates and mixtapes, family dramas and new friends. The world of sex, drugs, and the Rocky Horror Picture show, when all one requires is the perfect song on that perfect drive to feel infinite.

[Shad Cascone]

Infinite. Of course it's infinite. I know you hate that. I hated all of that. That was a hundred percent. That did not. That did not, for me, encompass. I mean, it got like the gist. Yeah, no, it doesn't. This. This book's. And it's funny because when I was doing research for this, a lot of people talked about, like, how it's a lot darker than it definitely presented itself, especially if you went based off of that blurb. And also, like the previews for the movie, people Were expecting it. I saw someone describe it. They thought going into it that it was going to be like a new age breakfast club. No, definitely not.

[Katie Cobb]

That's cute. I would bring you that. Right. I did a little finessing. Let's see if I get a little closer here.

[Shad Cascone]

You rewrote it in chatgpt?

[Katie Cobb]

Absolutely not. This is 100% Katie Cobb.

[Shad Cascone]

Okay.

[Katie Cobb]

This novel is epistolary as every section starts with a date and a letter addressed Dear friend. Charlie is just starting his freshman year of high school, is grieving a previous classmate's death and decides to process his emotions and these changes through anonymous letters to a friend in quotes. While he starts the year introverted and standoffish, he quickly finds his own quirky group of friends and starts to experience all that high school has to offer and more with parties, dating, et cetera. We are invited into his wins and his struggles through these anonymous letters as he gives us a first person view into his high school experience.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah, that seemed a little bit more appropriate.

[Katie Cobb]

A little closer. I just didn't like the like angsty 80s song Nature of the original blurb.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Katie Cobb]

Don't you forget about me. Exactly.

[Shad Cascone]

Correct.

[Katie Cobb]

All right, so let's talk about the book itself. This book was Originally published in 1999, although it takes place in 1991. 1992, and it clocks in at just over 200 pages. Is this the shortest book we've read?

[Shad Cascone]

It might very well be.

[Katie Cobb]

I know we read in the 200s, but I'm pretty sure like 2 13ish. This is the shortest one, I think.

[Shad Cascone]

I can't think of anything that we would have read that would have been shorter.

[Katie Cobb]

Right.

[Shad Cascone]

What about Dickens Christmas Carol?

[Katie Cobb]

Ooh, Christmas Carol is only like 95 pages.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean that's kind of a novella, let's say.

[Katie Cobb]

I like that. Okay. This one did hit number one on the New York Times bestseller list. That's the biggest accolade it got. It won a few awards from the American Library Association. My favorite of which was the best book for reluctant readers in 2000. So it's like a very niche award.

[Shad Cascone]

It was like an MTV sponsored book too. Like they. It was.

[Katie Cobb]

Right. And so that is gonna play into the movie here a little bit. So the movie released In September of 2012, it has 20 wins and 51 nominations for awards.

[Shad Cascone]

Really?

[Katie Cobb]

Most notably the GLAAD Media Award for outstanding film and a few Critics Choice award nominees.

[Shad Cascone]

Really?

[Katie Cobb]

And like a whole metric butt ton of MTV award nominees. And I was like, wait a min nepotism what is happening here? Like, it was so many.

[Shad Cascone]

I am quite surprised about the glad recognition because I don't feel like it was especially.

[Katie Cobb]

It's like a side note.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. It wasn't very queer forward, we'll say. Or even like queer friendly.

[Katie Cobb]

It really is not very queer friendly. That's true.

[Shad Cascone]

Maybe because at that. No, because at that time, there was still. There was a lot of. Yeah, I was gonna say in 99, it would be like, oh, look, queer representation. That's novel. But no, in 2012, can we talk to you about how it took 13 years to make? That surprised me too.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, it's a little weird. It was written and directed by the author. Stephen Chbosky spelled it right that time. It had a budget of 13 million and earned 33 million worldwide. So it was considered a success. Both the book and the movie, when I looked for information about them on the Internet, have cult classic attached to them as part of their description. So book gets referred to regularly as a cult classic movie also gets referred to as a cult classic. So they definitely have their audiences. But I was like, I don't think that they can both qualify.

[Shad Cascone]

Really. It's funny because when I.

[Katie Cobb]

That feels odd.

[Shad Cascone]

When I was looking stuff up for this, people are either like, this is my most favorite movie ever, or people are like, I absolutely hated it. It didn't seem like there was a lot of people that were just like, reviewing it and were just like, eh, you either loved it or hated it.

[Katie Cobb]

It's fine, really. Okay, so strong opinions, as promised.

[Shad Cascone]

I don't know if I. I mean, I would say the book was a cult classic for me because it has a little bit of nostalgia attached to it because I did read it in high school and it means something to me. But I mean, the movie, I couldn't see it. I guess it was kind of like an indie some. Maybe in that sense.

[Katie Cobb]

Oh, yeah. Well, right at the beginning you were like, why are we filming this? Like we're in art school.

[Shad Cascone]

Correct. Like, what is this film that we're using? I compared it to the Blair Witch Project.

[Katie Cobb]

Without any of the darkness or supernatural elements.

[Shad Cascone]

No, but I'm saying, like, the quality of the film is what I was talking about.

[Katie Cobb]

Right. The graininess was really getting to me for sure. Okay, let's go to the cutting room. We're gonna kind of play with this movie a little bit. Let's talk about some pivotal book scenes, like things that we were very excited to see on screen and how they actually translated. All right, what came to mind first for you, Shad.

[Shad Cascone]

To me, the one that I could think of and I think is probably like, the most pivotal scene was the tunnel.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes.

[Shad Cascone]

The first time when Sam stands up and she's in the tunnel. And I think it's, I think, more so in the book than the movie. The line of, like, I feel infinite. The first time when he's writing with him, it's like a bigger part of it. And that tunnel scene kind of plays into all of that. So that was, for me, the one I was most excited to see. And I think, well, they did make some changes. You know, she climbed through the back window of the truck as opposed to pulling over. The song was completely different. It was supposed to be Landslide by Fleetwood Mac and it was Heroes by David Bowie. But I think it got the feeling of it. Right. They described it later on about how, like, on one side you're, like, dark, and then you go through the tunnel and, like, it sucks all the air out and it's just the music. And then you, like, explode on the other side and it's like the lights of the city. I think they did all that pretty well. I liked that. Yeah, it was a good. They did a good job on that one.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes, I liked that, too. The thing that I was most looking forward to, which probably speaks to my level of maturity, is Charlie being high because I. Well, first of all, in the book, all of all of the action is self reported by Charlie. Right. So how much of this is, like, filtered versus whatever? Right? Like, is he actually hilarious while he's high? Was he actually that insistent about needing a milkshake? Or is it just how he remembers it after the high comes down? Yeah, I thought they did a decent job. Although he is much funnier in the movie version. So was he minimizing himself in the book version to not, like, you know, boost his ego with his anonymous friend? I don't know. And then he doesn't, like, ask for a milkshake over and over and over again. We just go to a scene where Sam is making him a milkshake. So I feel like we got a little bit cheated on that part of it.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. Or was it just through the view of the lens? They just, like, make him funnier to play it up for laughs.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes. Right.

[Shad Cascone]

Could be part of it, too.

[Katie Cobb]

Could be. Yeah. And then the only other really big scene I feel like that, you know, made its way into the movie is Charlie's revelation. Right. This is toward the end, as we say. This is not a spoiler free Episode, he has a revelation while he and Sam are doing the deed, or they're attempting to do the deed in her bedroom before she leaves for college, that he was actually sexually molested by his Aunt Helen. And that's hard because he has looked up to her so much. Her death has been devastating for him. She's like the pivotal adult role model in his life throughout the entire book. And then he's like, oh, shoot, I totally repressed this entire situation that was happening.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

I felt like it was glossed over and nebulous in the movie. Like, the flashbacks got a little, you know, nobody. It's our special secret, Charlie. Nobody has to know. But it's like, it's not as obvious to me that that's what was going on.

[Shad Cascone]

Did you want, like, to see the touching?

[Katie Cobb]

No, I did not. But it also, like, it was like he and Sam are, like, kind of making out on the bed, and she only puts her hand on his. And like, yes. It's a film for young adults. Like, we don't need to, like, see a porno, of course. But, like, it's not even like she touches his belt. Right. Like, it's very much like, wait, so he can't be touched on his knee? Like, what's happening?

[Shad Cascone]

Anticlimactic. Yeah, anticlimactic. Where it was like, yeah, you just wanted more because that is. It is like, the pivotal. It's a pivotal scene. Right. So it just felt like it was underplayed.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. And then he, like, shuts down, goes over to the couch, lays down all night, doesn't talk at all. And instead it's like, oh, he says goodbye and they're all fine. And then he goes home, and then he stops talking, and they realize that, like, something's gone wrong, but it doesn't have the same, like, before and after effect that we get in the book.

[Shad Cascone]

I can see that. Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

So, yeah. And even the things happening in the present where he's, like, carrying this Christmas Eve guilt feel kind of minimized because that is a huge part of Charlie's personality in the book, where, you know, leading up to Christmas Eve, everybody's like, are you going to be okay? Is everything okay? And it's like, meh.

[Shad Cascone]

This is something I definitely wrote down was the book seemed more about Charlie dealing with these. His trauma and his awkwardness. And then his love for Sam was sort of the side story to it. And it felt like the movie and maybe this was just Hollywood. It was a story of his love for Sam and then all of his trauma and his emotions and things like that took a. Took the side story to that. So I definitely made note of that. And I think that's kind of what you're speaking to, is that it was. It wasn't like the book. It was what we were dealing with right. In the movie. It was kind of like, oh, and then here's this thing that we're just gonna throw in right now.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes, that's exactly right. It's like the main course versus the side dish. Like, what are we actually here for? And I think it's more likely that a movie made for teens is going to be more about first love and. Yeah, all of that.

[Shad Cascone]

So mixtapes and whatever the hell else you said in the blurb.

[Katie Cobb]

First dates and mixtapes.

[Shad Cascone]

That's what it was. Sex, drugs, and Rocky Horror.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes, exactly.

[Shad Cascone]

Yes.

[Katie Cobb]

Okay, let's talk about some changes from book to movie rather than these pivotal scenes. So, yeah, let's get into that.

[Shad Cascone]

So what I just said was part of. One of my things I said was changes from book to movie. I did feel like in the book, his friendship with Patrick and Sam was more organic. Where in the movie, it definitely felt like. Like they took him under his wing and took him to this party, and then they decided to be his friend when they found out that his Michael had killed himself. Like, it almost felt like a pity hang after that where they were like, oh, this kid's dealing with some stuff. Let's include him. And I didn't really like that. It felt like it was almost like a little bit more disingenuous than the friendship as presented in the book.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, I agree, because.

[Shad Cascone]

Because, like, it definitely was like, she whispered to Patrick, like, oh, he's, you know, his friend Michael. He told me, just told me his friend Michael killed himself. And then he, like, makes the toast, and everyone's like, oh, to Charlie. Which was also really awkward and weird. Everyone just, like, stopped what they were.

[Katie Cobb]

Doing in the middle of a party.

[Shad Cascone]

Like, what?

[Katie Cobb]

You can't even hear somebody making a toast in the middle of a party.

[Shad Cascone]

Yes.

[Katie Cobb]

What kind of party is this?

[Shad Cascone]

So that was my big one. There's also some, like, little tiny things, like the song in the tunnel, which we already talked about. Mary Elizabeth, in the book gets accepted to Berkeley. In the movie, it's Harvard, which I don't know why you would change that, why it matters. And then Bill, who is his teacher in the book, definitely mentions his significant other as his girlfriend. And in the movie, he calls her his wife. Those are the ones that I have Written down.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, I kind of broadened that out to. That relationship with Bill feels much more formational in the book versus more surface level in the movie. Like, he is occasionally in class with Paul Ruddy. Thanks be to God. And then he's like, charlie, I think you would like this book. It's my copy. Like, but there's no there there. And that was a little frustrating to me because I, like, I mean, even for the two of us, we can still think of high school teachers that were super pivotal to our lives and, like, kind of made us. Helped make us into the people we are today. And I think Bill is that for Charlie. But you don't get that in the movie.

[Shad Cascone]

Shout out to Mrs. Foley.

[Katie Cobb]

Yay, Mrs. Foley. And Candace. Love her. Okay.

[Shad Cascone]

Oh, my God, Candace. Yeah. But I also. So also with Charlie because I have changes from book to movie, things left out of the movie, things added to the movie. So also in things left out of the movie was more of that in depth relationship he has with Bill, because in the book, he gets invited over to his house and meets the girlfriend and they have lunch. And Bill really expresses to him that he's the smartest person he knows or one of the smartest people he knows and wants him to know that and wants him to know that he's special. And so, like you said, it was just a lot more surface level in the movie. And honestly, if it wasn't played, if he wasn't played by Paul Rudd, I don't know if I'd even care.

[Katie Cobb]

Right. We wouldn't even know what his name was. Right.

[Shad Cascone]

Exactly.

[Katie Cobb]

It wouldn't matter. Yes. I think the biggest left out of the movie for me and we both yelled about this is that Charlie doesn't cry.

[Shad Cascone]

Oh, I wrote it in all caps. Charlie's not crying all the time. Yeah, he sheds, like, one tear right at the end.

[Katie Cobb]

It's crazy. Like, what is crying?

[Shad Cascone]

Cause in the book, he literally never stops, Right?

[Katie Cobb]

He never stops crying. He also masturbates until he chaps his wiener in the book. And that is not dealt with at all in the movie.

[Shad Cascone]

PG 13. The movie was rated PG 13, Katie. That's what we got here. Okay.

[Katie Cobb]

Okay. But there are ways again, there are ways to like.

[Shad Cascone]

To what?

[Katie Cobb]

Like, insinuate this without being like, let's have a little look, see at you actually holding the lotion while he didn't use lotion.

[Shad Cascone]

He used a pillow.

[Katie Cobb]

He did a blanket and a pillow. And it turns out that's too much friction, folks.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah, another big one that I saw that was left out was it was kind of the more developed relationship with his sister. Or like, even his sister in general. Because we know how Katie hates sisters when we do movie adaptations from books, as we know. But this definitely, like, the sister wasn't as much of a character because we missed out on. We definitely got the boyfriend, Derek, ponytail Derek, hitting her. But we didn't get the rest of that story where Charlie told Bill. And then she gets found out and then the parents get mad and then she has to see him in secret. And then we also missed out on the abortion, which I think is kind of a pivotal scene. Because she's really mean to him for most of the first half of the book. And then that happens and you kind of see their relationship develop a little bit more. They have this bond again. So I kind of felt that that was missing again. Maybe it was cut for the rating because it is only PG 13. Somewhere I read is that there. They did actually film it. It's on a deleted scene. So maybe it just didn't make the cut for time or pacing. Right. For timing or pacing. Maybe it was cut for. But I felt like that was something that I missed as well.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, I agree. I thought that was a really important part of the book. Especially the way it developed their relationship.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. And then I don't know. Do you have another one? Because I have another one.

[Katie Cobb]

I have one more, which is just regarding Rocky Horror. I feel like it is much more important in the book. The number of times they go. The fact that Charlie is able to step into the role. Because he's been there so many times. So of course he's able to play this big role on stage when he's never shown any kind of, like, extroverted aptitude for this. And so instead in the movie, it's like, oh, yeah, he goes. And then all of a sudden he has to be in his underwear only and, like, touching Sam's boobs on stage. And that felt unearned to me.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah, Sam's boobs felt unearned to me, too.

[Katie Cobb]

Oh, for sure.

[Shad Cascone]

The last one that I have, and I think this was a huge one as well, is in the movie we don't get the scene where Sam tells Charlie not to think of her that way. Which I think is big because it's absolutely defines their relationship for the first, you know, three quarters of the novel.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, right.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. And so I thought that was definitely missing and something that was too important to just leave out. And maybe it was because they didn't have time for it. And it affected all the ultimate love story of them. And we've already talked about how that seemed to be the more important aspect of the movie, but I don't know. It was a huge part of the book that was brought up a few times, and it was just not there.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, it's part of why Charlie kind of puts up with all this other relationship hullabaloo with Mary Elizabeth and Patrick, with going to the park, like, all of that part of it. Is there anything added to the movie that wasn't in the book that is salient?

[Shad Cascone]

Mine's a little bit superficial. The only thing I wrote down was that in the movie, his brother and sister actually have names, because they don't in the book, they are Candace and they are Chris. And in the book, I literally, every time I reference them, just said brother and sister. Because they did not. They weren't that fortnite guess I don't know. That is the only thing I had that was added.

[Katie Cobb]

I can see that. And it did definitely get you on a whole.

[Shad Cascone]

Catch me by surprise. Oh, it's because I notate. So, like, when I read the book, I literally take notes the whole time, and I do a list of, like, characters, and I write their names and how they're described because it's how I have to do it. And so when people don't have names, it bugs me because it's like, well, how do I reference them? Yeah, you know, it's literally brother and sister, mom and dad in this one because they didn't have names. So I like, very much know that they did not have names. And then all of a sudden, in the movie, they just did.

[Katie Cobb]

They do. And they're all names, right? It's. Yeah, Candace, Charlie and Chris.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

Okay. The only thing I wrote for this is that Charlie is a normie in the movie. And so he's like. In the movie, he's mellow. He's just a little introverted. It feels like his change into being accepted or befriended or, like, even a little bit popular at school isn't very dramatic or drastic. Again, because it's more about the love story rather than in the book. He's clearly a kid repressing trauma, maybe slightly on the spectrum. He's got a lot going on, and that doesn't come through at all on the movie. Instead, he's just like a kind of awkward kid who's starting freshman year of high school for the first time and is trying to figure out where he fits in, which is probably much Closer to a lot of people's high school experience. Maybe it made it more relatable for everyone else, but for me, it kind of took away from the story a little bit.

[Shad Cascone]

Well, and it's not what the book's about. It's not just Charlie starting freshman year, and he's an awkward, weird kid and needs to find his people. I mean, it's. There is that subtext to it, but it's like, Charlie's a little bit messed up.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. And he has a lot going on.

[Shad Cascone]

That's a nice way of putting it.

[Katie Cobb]

Well, I mean, he's been in, like, mental health inpatient stuff before, and, like, that's very briefly alluded to in the book. It seems like you're getting bad again. Like, that's the only kind of comment about it. So. Yeah. All right, let's talk about casting. One of your favorite.

[Shad Cascone]

Ooh, casting.

[Katie Cobb]

I wrote Too Hot, Too Attractive, Too short, too Old.

[Shad Cascone]

I can guess who that is. I only did Charlie, Sam, Patrick, and Mary Elizabeth because I feel like they had the most screen time. I didn't really get into everyone. I will touch base later about the casting situation, but for me, when we go into. When we talk about casting is alternate casting. So for Charlie, Charlie was played by Logan Lerman, which is probably best known. He was Percy in Percy Jackson. He's done some other things, but I felt like that would be the things that people know him from. And as you just touched on, I think that not only was Charlie not portrayed well in the script, based on what. How he read in the book, I also don't believe the actor playing Charlie. It's not how he pictured him. And it was because he was, like, too attractive. And, like, he wasn't as gangly or awkward or weird. And I just didn't picture Charlie to be, like, this guy who was kind of hot and, like, sure, he had a weird haircut or whatever, but, like, right. Like, it just. It didn't fit for me. So when I thought about alternate casting, I definitely picked some actors who were a little more unconventional looking, we'll say. So the first one I went with was Freddie Highmore, which, if you know the series, it's called the Good Doctor. He was the Good Doctor. And I don't know if maybe I picked him because in the Good Doctor, the Good Doctor is about a doctor who is autistic. So maybe my mind just went there because he's already playing someone who has a little bit of these traits that we feel like Charlie should have. I also went with Thomas Brody Sangster, who was the kid in love, actually German guy, the little one again, because not conventionally good looking, you know what I mean? And like, I felt like he could portray that. The other one I went from, because this was 2012. So not only when I consider these not only, like people that like, fit the role, but who was also popular at the time, were they famous enough at the time they could have gotten this role. And someone else I went with was Nicholas Holt. He played in Catherine, Catherine the Great. He was Peter. He's also Lex Luthor in the Superman movies. And it's funny because after I wrote all these, because the next one I have is, I think it's Aja Butterfield. Asia Butterfield. Asa Butterfield from Sex Education. Okay, Sex Education. The main guy from Sex Education.

[Katie Cobb]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

Also, and it's funny because after I did all this, I was like, why are they all English? Literally every one of these guys is English. I don't know if that was something. Maybe because they're more apt to cast people who are unconventionally good looking in lead roles. I have no idea. But I thought that those kind of all felt the feeling of Charlie, for me, a little bit better than Logan Lerman. You see him.

[Katie Cobb]

And also Asa Aisha Butterfield is currently 28 years old. He was born in 1997. So he would have been 15 at the time that this. Which is how old Charlie is supposed to be. He's supposed to be 14, 15. Right. That's a whole thing that we're going to get into.

[Shad Cascone]

Yes. And so that's another thing I had to look at was like, because I was thinking of different people who could play this role. But I was like, oh, they would have been seven when this movie was filmed or things like that. So I also had to look into like the different ages of these people or like, oh, they actually would have been 35 when this was made.

[Katie Cobb]

Right.

[Shad Cascone]

Next up is Sam, which is Emma Watson. And don't get me wrong, I love Emma Watson. British, I'm pretty sure. British, I'm pretty sure. This was this interesting enough when I was looking up casting, I found out that she was the only one who was offer. Only everyone else auditioned. So they like, they thought about her, offered her the role. She didn't have to try for it. I just didn't picture her as Sam and I don't know why. For me, she just didn't fit it. And maybe it's because, I don't know, maybe she's Too short. Maybe she's a too short. I don't know. I didn't really like her for Sam. Maybe she wasn't edgy enough. Because Sam's supposed to be a little edgy and she's a little. Yeah, yeah. And she's a little too Belle from Beauty and the Beast. Disney Princess, you know.

[Katie Cobb]

Right, right.

[Shad Cascone]

We did find out that she wasn't wearing a wig. That was actually her hair, in case you were wondering. Katie and I went down a tangent when we were watching the movie into.

[Katie Cobb]

That because there is a wig later, but it's on top of her actual hair, which is for the rest of the movie.

[Shad Cascone]

So we should put, like, a cautionary warning at the beginning that normally when we watch the movie, we're in bibing. So sometimes we misremember things. Sometimes we go on weird tangents. Just so you know, they all come from a place of love.

[Katie Cobb]

That those are all true things. Yes.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. So we. Alternatives at the time. I did Jennifer Lawrence because she was kind of coming into her own at that time, and I could picture her a little bit of Sam because she's got that edge. Sarah Hyland, who is the oldest daughter from Modern Family.

[Katie Cobb]

Oh, Haley.

[Shad Cascone]

Haley. So I could picture her. I also chose Emma Roberts, who I liked for this just because she is a little bit on that edgy side. And then I also thought Brie Larson, because she was just coming off having been in Scott Pilgrim vs. The World, where she played this kind of like, punk sort of singer. And I thought all of those would have been good options for this.

[Katie Cobb]

Brie Larson, She's Wonder Woman, right?

[Shad Cascone]

No, she was Captain Marvel.

[Katie Cobb]

Oh, that's what I meant.

[Shad Cascone]

Wonder Woman is Gal Gadot, right?

[Katie Cobb]

Yes.

[Shad Cascone]

And I do know.

[Katie Cobb]

Right?

[Shad Cascone]

Correct. For Patrick. I actually really liked Ezra Miller. Miller for this role. I thought he did a really great job.

[Katie Cobb]

I did, too.

[Shad Cascone]

He is a little controversial now. He's had a lot of, like, legal problems, and he's kind of been canceled by Hollywood. There's. There's a lot of things going on with Ezra Miller, but at the time, none of those existed. He's only become an asshole since then. So at the time, I thought he fit the role very well. He does identify as queer, so I liked that because Patrick is queer in the. In the movie. And so with that, I did try to choose some people who maybe were a little bit more effeminate, acting, like, not these big macho men. So I went with Timothee Chalamet, I thought could play that role pretty well. I did Andrew Garfield, kind of also that lanky, sort of effeminate.

[Katie Cobb]

He wouldn't have been old already. Isn't he our age?

[Shad Cascone]

I think he would have been a little bit on the older side.

[Katie Cobb]

Okay.

[Shad Cascone]

And then Jonathan Groff. Because we love Jonathan Groff.

[Katie Cobb]

Let's just put him in the Jonathan Groff.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

Can we have him be the teacher? Maybe?

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. I mean, who would Paul Rudd play?

[Katie Cobb]

I don't know. That would be sad. But I have some opinions about Paul Rudd in this movie.

[Shad Cascone]

And then Mary Elizabeth was played by Mae Whitman, which I know her from. Ann from Arrested Development. Katie knows her from Parenthood.

[Katie Cobb]

Parenthood, yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

She's one of those character actresses who's like. She's been in all these things where you're kind of like, oh, I know who she is, but you can't name anything. She was actually in. I love. I love character actresses. Why? I love Judy Greer. Just kind of that quirky best friend with, like, Joan Cusack, who was also in this movie.

[Katie Cobb]

If anybody's playing Popcorn in the pages, bingo. You already got Judy Greer for this episode.

[Shad Cascone]

I literally wrote under all this, who could Jeff Goldblum have played? Because he's my other one.

[Katie Cobb]

The Doctor. He could have been the. He could have been Joan Ku's ex role, for sure.

[Shad Cascone]

Correct. Or Parker Posey. She's another one I love. I'm trying to fit in everywhere.

[Katie Cobb]

She could have been the mom.

[Shad Cascone]

She could have. Yeah. But for Mary Elizabeth, I chose because I wanted sort of that quirky best friend, sort of, like, role. I did Rebel Wilson. That was before she got all skinny and, like, leading lady. She was more that funny best friend. I said Alison Brie, which. I know her from Community. She was on the show Glow as well. Yes. Love her for that. And I also picked Rose McIver, which, if you watch the show Ghosts, she's the main girl from Ghosts, the one who can see ghosts. And so she was coming into her own at that time as well. And I feel like she could have fit in that. That role pretty well as well.

[Katie Cobb]

She's from New Zealand.

[Shad Cascone]

Who? Rosemary. Is that what you're doing right now? Are you, like, looking these people up?

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, I look them up as. Because sometimes I'm like, I have no idea who that is. And then I see their face and I'm like, oh, I do know who that is.

[Shad Cascone]

It's funny because now I put. When I'm. When I'm looking people up, I literally put my print like, who's. Who's. How you know them from, for, obviously everyone. Except for Katie.

[Katie Cobb]

For Katie.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah, for Katie. But also, I mean, I'm sure nobody knows actors like I do or if they do, we should be friends, so.

[Katie Cobb]

You probably are already. Okay, I.

[Shad Cascone]

So what did you have?

[Katie Cobb]

I. Well, I didn't do alternate casting, obviously. I said, too hot for Logan Lerman, too attractive for Emma Watson, because. And that was the, like, not edgy enough. Johnny Simmons as Brad. I said he was too short. He's a quarterback. He doesn't look strong and fast and, like lanky. He looks kind of goofy.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. Like a little pedestrian to be the hot football jock.

[Katie Cobb]

And then we looked up Dylan McDermott and Kate Walsh and we feel like both of them were too old to be the parents.

[Shad Cascone]

They were in there. I think, like, I think he was like 60 or something, looking damn good. And then she was in her 50s. But I think they had a college age son.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

How old were your parents when you were in college?

[Katie Cobb]

Well, my parents had me late. Like, when Micah goes to college, I will be like 45.

[Shad Cascone]

Oh, yeah. But like, if Dylan. If Dylan McDermott was 60, that means he had Charlie when he was 45. That didn't seem right.

[Katie Cobb]

Feels a little off. For sure.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

All right. Okay, so let's talk about. Is there anything problematic with either the casting or the story or the anything. And mine is obviously the utter lack of people of color. This was an all white school. I assume it was segregated. The first person of color that we see in the IMDb listing is Atticus Kane, who is the emergency room doctor.

[Shad Cascone]

When I was thinking about it, because I wrote. I wrote personal, like people of color representation as well. I was thinking, like, I don't think there was a single person in this movie that was a person of color.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

So I'm glad. I'm glad you found the one.

[Katie Cobb]

It was like scrolling. It was like, there are 99 credits and it was like number 96 was Atticus Kane, the emergency room doctor.

[Shad Cascone]

And like, because it was set, we definitely know it was set in Pennsylvania, obviously based on the houses. I mean, it was like an affluent part of Pennsylvania. I don't know where they were at, but those houses were giant. One of them looked like a frat house.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes.

[Shad Cascone]

We lived in.

[Katie Cobb]

This one's the frat house.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. So I don't know if maybe that. I don't know the time. Tiny one. I mean, I have no. There's really no reason for it. Especially because they. Just because the characters are white in the book doesn't mean you have to cast them that way.

[Katie Cobb]

Right, exactly. And it was 2012. Like, it's not like this is a movie from 1999. Right.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

Which even then, like, can we try a little better 90s? But, like, yeah, 2012. Come on, dude.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. I wrote Gay representation in this and a couple things for it. And maybe it was because, I mean, this was written in 99. And you got to think, back in 99, even that doesn't sound like it's that long ago. But there. There wasn't a lot. I mean, that's when Will and Grace was coming out, and it was, like, revolutionary. Yeah. And so. And this was set in 91, so definitely. Well before that. But I definitely wrote, like, just. But even taking all that, like, Brad was the closeted, you know, hot quarterback. Like, how cliche is that? And you know how I feel about these things. Can't handle it because he was like, oh, the hottest guy in school who's also the quarterback, is sleeping with the weird, edgy. Like, no, that doesn't happen. But also the part about his dad finding out and then beating him.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. Like, no acceptance whatsoever.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. And then I also wrote the. And I get. Like, maybe not for me. I didn't get drunk until freshman year of college, but there was. There was excessive drug use and drinking.

[Katie Cobb]

It was a lot.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. Like, every weekend they would just get plastered. They were doing LSD and, like, smoking weed. Like.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

That was not the high school experience I had.

[Katie Cobb]

I mean, we were kind of off the popular path. Not losers.

[Shad Cascone]

They weren't popular.

[Katie Cobb]

We were not losers. We had plenty of friends. We just weren't, like, with the. With the very. I don't know. But you're right. They weren't that popular either. I feel like we were very similarly stationed to Patrick and Sam and Hot Bob and.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. Hot Bob.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Cause, like, we were like, you. Right. Like, we weren't. Like, we didn't play sports, so we weren't the popular kids, but we found our people because we would. It's like. Like, with the theater kids, and we were in orchestra and choir and. Yeah. You know, we were in the honors classes. But, like, we weren't Mormon and uptight or, like. But I mean. I mean, I literally never got drunk until freshman year of college.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, I did.

[Shad Cascone]

I did not.

[Katie Cobb]

I did a number of times. And I also did. I didn't do, like, drugs, so I don't really have anything to say about that experience.

[Shad Cascone]

But, like, where were their parents? Like, they were having parties in their house. There was no parents anywhere. It was just like that.

[Katie Cobb]

Dylan McDermott and Kate Walsh.

[Shad Cascone]

Right. Charlie's parents were around a little bit, but, like, they were partying at people's, like, parents houses.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

No one was there. It was weird.

[Katie Cobb]

It was weird.

[Shad Cascone]

And then the other thing I put was Derek hitting his sister and then her covering it up and then the secret relationship, which, granted, like, I mean, I don't think it was problematic in the way, like, I think it was part of the story.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

You know, I mean, obviously it's not great. It's not a great look, but I mean, things like that happen. So we write about him. But that was all I had for that.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, I agree.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

All right. I like it. I mean, I don't like it. That's the problematic stuff. We've checked that box. Let's move on to more fun. The award season section where we talk about the best and worst parts of all the different pieces that we're discussing today. So for the adaptation, what is the worst part of the adaptation?

[Shad Cascone]

So on both of these I have, like a real answer and then like a mermaid answer. So just know that I've got. Yeah, I've got two. For me, the worst part we've already talked about this was the film quality. I don't know what was happening there. I. And like. Because it's like, oh, were you trying to be edgy and indie? Like, you could do that with like standard film. I don't know. I don't know what. How they filmed it that way.

[Katie Cobb]

High eight. I don't.

[Shad Cascone]

I don't know. I don't know what that means. I don't like it. And it was like. Was it necessary? I don't think it was necessary because it's not like this movie was set in like the 70s, you know what I mean? It was 91.

[Katie Cobb]

It was really grainy.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. Jurassic park was filmed in 95 or whatever and it was great.

[Katie Cobb]

So true. So true. Okay, my answer here is how pretty everyone is. But it's not really that. The reason I related so much to the book when I was a teenager is that it could have been us, right? It could have been me and you and the people we hung out with. We were awkward high school students. We were trying to figure out our place in the world. We did not grow into our bodies or our personalities for quite some time. But here we've got 20 to 24 year olds playing 14 to 18 year olds and they're too self aware and developed as humans. They're not like awkward, gangly, like weird kids, which is. I just had 40 teenagers at my house yesterday. They're all weird. Like, we love them, but they're weird. And that's not what it felt like watching this. It felt like they were actually in college and they were just pretending to be in high school, which is actually what was happening because they were 20 to 24 years old.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah, no, I definitely can see that. And I mean, that's. I think it's just Hollywood. Like, although we just talked about what's his face. Butterfield could have been this. And I would have believed him because he played sex education and he was that awkward high school student. I think they could have been cast better.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

But I also. So my other worst one was Charlie, just because I didn't believe him as the awkward outcast in the book. So that was my other thing I had for the worst.

[Katie Cobb]

All right, how about best parts of the adaptation? We always start low and go high.

[Shad Cascone]

For me, it was the casting. There was literally everyone in this movie. Every role was played by someone. Like when I. When we were watching it back when I was watching with Katie, I was like, I didn't know everyone was cast in this, Paul. Okay, so we already talked about Ezra Miller, Emma Watson, Logan Lerman, May Whitman, Paul Rudd, Kate Walsh, Dylan McDermott, Melanie Lynskey, Joan Cusack, Nina Dobrev, Julia Garner, who was like before she became anybody. Nicholas Braun, Johnny Simmons, like, all of these people I know from somewhere else or they went on to have greater careers. I was blown away by the amount of talent in this movie.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

Insane.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. And they did it with 13 million in budget. Like, what did they pay these people? Nothing.

[Shad Cascone]

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

[Katie Cobb]

Absolutely nothing. Okay. The best part, you're gonna love this. The best part of the adaptation for me is that the 20 years later letter is not part of it. That infuriated me. It made me so mad. Okay, so this book came out in 1999. It was re released in a 20th anniversary edition. But it wasn't. It was just 20 years after Charlie stopped writing in accordance with the film. Right.

[Shad Cascone]

Would have been 2011. 2012 according to the film.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, 2012. And so the letter is added to the new edition which has like the film tie in cover. It's dated September 18, 2012. When I printed it out, like regular size, it's about two pages printed. It makes me so angry.

[Shad Cascone]

Are you going to read the whole thing? Do you have excerpts highlighted?

[Katie Cobb]

I don't know if I'm going to read the Whole thing. I don't think y' all want to hear this whole thing. But basically, Charlie is writing to his friend that he's been writing to or he wrote to for a single year from 1991 to 1992. And this one starts 2012. Dear friend, I haven't sent a letter to you for 20 years. He goes on to talk about how he's not even sure if this is still the right person, but what happened was Patrick's letters were passed around, and everybody ended up knowing about them. So what happened in real life is that Stephen Chbosky, the author, started getting letters from people who said that Charlie's story mattered to them and impacted them and found them in a place that they needed to be found. And that is super special. But he goes on to say, you read my letters, and then some of you wrote back. So now we've moved from dear friend to some of you. Now there's millions of you. You sent letters to random addresses. Some of them were forwarded along. Maybe some of them weren't. I don't know if I got all of them. Understand, friend, There are millions of us, millions of people who struggle with and overcome all sorts of problems. This is where we get into true After School special territory. He starts talking about, he got a letter from a young woman who was going to kill herself, read this book, decided not to, and now she's in her 30s because it's 20 years later, or really, it's like 13 years later. And it ends with, I can tell you what happened to Charlie in three words. He made it, and so will you. Love always, Charlie. It is this, like, meta ridiculousness where it was like, we didn't need this. Stephen Chbosky, you can trust your readers to know that this story is complete.

[Shad Cascone]

As it stands, it felt like it was pandering.

[Katie Cobb]

It was so pandering. And it turned what was a great story into, like, wait, I've been conned. This was like an After School special. This is your brain on drugs commercial, written down in book format. Like, what are you doing? I was livid.

[Shad Cascone]

Well, and please note that, like, neither of the copies of the book that Katie and I read, I still have my copy from high school I found when I was packing up my bedroom. And then Katie had bought us a new copy, which she bought from Thrift Books. Yeah, from Thriftbooks. So neither of our copies actually had this because it was the original printing?

[Katie Cobb]

Yes.

[Shad Cascone]

Katie did a tandem read.

[Katie Cobb]

I did a tandem read. So I also listened to the audio on Spotify And I finished the text of my book, and then it kept going. And I'm like, flipping pa like, there's nothing left. Like, where is this coming from? And so the narration on Spotify had that final letter, and I sat there with my mouth open like a fish. I was furious. Like, what?

[Shad Cascone]

Katie played it for me after the movie. It was bad. It just, like you said, it's just like it poisoned it. It made this book. I mean, even rereading it now as.

[Katie Cobb]

An adult, that's a whole different experience. Of course.

[Shad Cascone]

But then it also just like, it cheapened it.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. Well. And, like, if this book is for high schoolers and they're the ones that are supposed to read it, you don't need an adult chiming in at the end, being like, I got you, slugger. We're gonna do it. Like, that's ridiculous.

[Shad Cascone]

Yes.

[Katie Cobb]

So my best part of the adaptation is that that is not a part of it. Trust your readers.

[Shad Cascone]

I also put as part of my best part, Paul Rudd, Derek's ponytail.

[Katie Cobb]

Cause they call him Ponytail Derek.

[Shad Cascone]

Yep. And I put Charlie's hot brother. Don't know his name.

[Katie Cobb]

He was Hot Chris.

[Shad Cascone]

His name was Chris. His name was Chris. But the actor who played him, I don't know who he was. He did a very good job.

[Katie Cobb]

Well, Hot Bob is also.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. Which. Yeah, Hot Bob was very hot as well.

[Katie Cobb]

Oh, I have a note in all caps about that. We'll get there in a second about Hot Bob. Okay, worst actor in the adaptation. What do you got?

[Shad Cascone]

So, I mean, they did a fine job. I put Emma Watson. Just because I didn't buy her as Sam. I just. It wasn't, you know, that she didn't play it well. Like, she was fine. Emma Watson is a very accomplished actress. I just didn't buy it. She didn't fit the role of Sam for me. So that's who I listed. What did you have?

[Katie Cobb]

Okay, I hate it. But it's Paul Rudd for me. He's standoffish, he's robotic. He's not warm and inviting. And I think the reason that it makes me so sad is because. Because we've seen him be all of those things. Like, we know he has the chops to act like that. So it could be the script that they made Bill's role so blah. But he is not interesting. It feels like he's reading a script instead of being part of the story. And so every time he would, like you said, if it wasn't Paul Rudd, I wouldn't even have noticed him. And it's because it's not a good role. It's crap. And he had very little to work with, but also didn't live into it in the way that he could have. So.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah, And Paul Rudd is funny and charming and hilarious.

[Katie Cobb]

So good at everything he does.

[Shad Cascone]

Was he not allowed to be those things? Yeah. And so it's like, why? Why did it have to be Paul Rudd? It could have literally been anybody else. So like, don't tell me Paul Rudd's in this and get me excited for Paul Rudd and then have it not be Paul. The Paul Rudd.

[Katie Cobb]

I know, the sleep version. Yeah, right, exactly.

[Shad Cascone]

I get that.

[Katie Cobb]

Okay, how about best actor for me?

[Shad Cascone]

I chose Ezra Miller as Patrick.

[Katie Cobb]

I chose Ezra Miller and I wrote.

[Shad Cascone]

Controversial yet brave because I know that he's not got a lot of issues now and we don't talk about him, but I thought he did. I thought he did Patrick justice. And I thought he really sold the character. I liked him. I believed it.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes, I agree. He's just the right amount of nerdy, awkward. He plays it perfectly. We believe him as Patrick and I think he's really great. So yeah, Ezra Miller as Patrick. I wanted to like Logan Lerman as Charlie, but he's just entirely too attractive. And I also have thoughts about why are there's so many boys in YA Knowles named Charlie. It's too many. It's too many. And I don't know if like this Charlie walked so that Charlie from Heartstopper could run, because that kind of feels like there's a connection there, but like there's just too many Charlies.

[Shad Cascone]

I would leave that guy as Charlie in this one.

[Katie Cobb]

He would have been a great Charlie.

[Shad Cascone]

How old was he though?

[Katie Cobb]

Probably 12.

[Shad Cascone]

Right. So perfect.

[Katie Cobb]

Okay. Worst character in the book.

[Shad Cascone]

Mary Elizabeth.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes, that's what I mean.

[Shad Cascone]

Oh my God, she was insufferable, awful. She was so self absorbed and she was so just annoying. And they wrote it that way. So great. Right? I mean, that's how she was supposed to be. Especially from Charlie's point of view. Right. And then like the thing that just made me want to hit her.

[Katie Cobb]

It's exactly the same thing. I know what it is.

[Shad Cascone]

When she got with Peter and then she was like, oh, he challenges me. And it's not all actually talks to me. Oh, I hate her hater so much. She's so very Elizabeth. She is the worst.

[Katie Cobb]

And even that is like dulled down a little bit. Right. In the movie, like Charlie, you know, he gets a call from her and he can Walk away and go, like, have a whole conversation with his mom and then come back. So she talks a lot, but it's like, come on. No, this is like, oh, she's so bad.

[Shad Cascone]

Can we also list Sam as kind of an awful character? Because, like, she is kind of awful. She knew how she felt, how he felt about her, and then kind of played into it. And then at the end, she was like, why haven't you ever hit on me? Or, like, why didn't you ever ask me out? Because you told me not to. Like, definitely playing games.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

That's not the kind of girl you want to be with. Right? So she was my second for that.

[Katie Cobb]

I can. I can identify with that.

[Shad Cascone]

Which is that problematic that all the main female characters in this book are awful? Does he not know how to. Men writing women? Is that what we have here?

[Katie Cobb]

Oh, my. Yeah. Well, there's definitely. Did you see that post in the bookish friends group?

[Shad Cascone]

No.

[Katie Cobb]

I'm gonna send it to you. It's so funny. It's about this woman who, as she sees a very hot man, her ovaries jiggle inside her, and everybody's like, that's not a thing that happens. Jiggling ovaries. Not a thing.

[Shad Cascone]

But what if it did? Wouldn't that be fun?

[Katie Cobb]

Like, jingle Bells inside, Like, something exciting. Okay, how about the best character in the book?

[Shad Cascone]

I wrote. In the book, I wrote Patrick because.

[Katie Cobb]

This episode's terrible, because I wrote the same thing.

[Shad Cascone]

I mean, there wasn't a lot of, like, great. Like, it was. The characters are very clearly defined. I don't think they gave us a lot of room for interpretation.

[Katie Cobb]

Right.

[Shad Cascone]

But I thought Patrick, because I wrote. Because he welcomes Charlie and accepts him for who he is without judgment.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. He's funny. He gets kind of messed up and messy, and that is relatable to me. Like, I can see myself or my people behaving in the same way with that same kind of drama in my life. I just. I think he's such a great character, and I love him.

[Shad Cascone]

I agree. Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

So, yes, indeed, all of that. All right, we are to our book Flick energy section. So we are going to score both of these pieces of media, which was better. Okay. To start out, I will let you know that on Goodreads, the book has 4.23 out of 5 stars. It is so high. It has 1.9 million ratings.

[Shad Cascone]

Wow.

[Katie Cobb]

Which is, I'm pretty sure, the highest we've ever had.

[Shad Cascone]

That's insane.

[Katie Cobb]

Maybe not higher than the Hunger Games. Hunger Games had a Lot of ratings too. Yeah, well, it's a lot. So I have a whole journey with regard to my rating of this book. But, Shad, tell us how you landed.

[Shad Cascone]

Ugh, I don't want to because you're gonna hate me. I gave it four out of five and I wrote next to it, Nostalgia. And that's because it holds a special place in my heart because of when I read it, where I was at. And we've already talked about all this and like I said, rereading it again, I can definitely find the hole, I can poke the holes within it. But I. It still holds a place for me. Like if, like when you said we were going to read it, I got real excited.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

I've gifted this book to other people where I was just like, this is a great book. What it means to me, you know, And I think tearing it apart a little bit is good. But it still, it still holds a four out of five for me. What'd you give?

[Katie Cobb]

I like it. Okay, here's my journey. We're going like, follow me, if you will. When I joined Goodreads, it was 2013 and they, they make you kind of answer questions as you make your first profile, right? They're like, see all these very popular books? Which ones have you read and did you like them? So I didn't read it in 2013, but it was marked red on Goodreads in 2013. I had read it probably 13 years before. I rated this book as read and I gave it five stars.

[Shad Cascone]

Wow.

[Katie Cobb]

I guarantee it was riding on 13 years of nostalgia. At the time. I was like, this was my favorite book. I'm positive that I said this was my favorite book for solidly five to seven years. Right?

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

I loved this book. I don't think it was written for a 40 year old woman. I just don't. It hit completely differently. I did not love it. It felt like reading an after school special, especially with the 20 Years later chapter. That was horrible. Instead, everything about it felt forced. Like he was like, you know what else high schoolers probably deal with is when the gay kid gets beat up by his dad. Like, it just. It was so much. It felt like I was being force fed. And it's because it's not written for me. It's written for a high schooler. It was written for the girl I used to be. So it was a five star book for me then I gave it three and a half this time. And even that is probably a little bit of a bump for nostalgia for sure. Cause I Had some very strong feelings and I did a lot of eye rolling while I read this book. But we're gonna let it ride with a substantial knockdown. Like a 30% knockdown from where I started. So sorry. Not sorry. Okay, how about the movie? Let's have some stats. First, Rotten Tomatoes. We have an 85% critics score on the tomato meter and an 89% audience score on the popcorn meter. On IMDb, it has 7.9 out of 10 stars with 571,000 thousand ratings.

[Shad Cascone]

Wow.

[Katie Cobb]

I know. I was surprised.

[Shad Cascone]

Gave it a 7. 7 out of 10. It's because we're the same person.

[Katie Cobb]

I know this is. Yeah, it's the nostalgia factor here. Like something is happening with this.

[Shad Cascone]

Well, that's it. And like the movie, I think it did a great job adapting the book and like it got the main points across. It got kind of that same sort of feeling. I didn't appreciate the film it was filmed on. You know, there was. They definitely took some liberties here, but I thought. I thought it followed the book pretty well. I mean, like the book, I mean, isn't really long enough for you not to include most of it, so. Especially if you're gonna make a two hour. Was it two hours? Hour and 40 minutes.

[Katie Cobb]

It was a long 40. Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. So I thought, I thought it was. Okay, give it a seven.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty decent adaptation. I don't know if I would have enjoyed it if I had. If I didn't have to watch it for this content. I don't think it was made for 40 year olds either. I think it was made like 15 year old me would have been thrilled to see it on the screen. I think I would have been very happy with the way it was adapted too. I would have been like, yeah, because we're so cool and like of an era with our 90s Ness. Like, this is great. But I also gave it a 7 out of 10. I thought it hit the right notes and I thought it accomplished what it was trying to do, even though I didn't love every second of it.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

I have a couple thoughts. Can we go to my couple thoughts?

[Katie Cobb]

Oh, sure. But not questions yet. Just. Just thoughts.

[Shad Cascone]

No, just thoughts. Okay. The first one being, did it not bug you? I guess this is a question because I'm phrasing it as one that in the movie they couldn't figure out the Tunnel song when it was Heroes by David Bowie, but they could make all these mixtapes and have all this deep conversation about music. And I'm like, you don't know. Heroes by David Bowie made me mad.

[Katie Cobb]

When did it come out? With regard to 1991, I think in the 80s. Okay. Yeah. No, that's just stupid.

[Shad Cascone]

77. It came out in 1977, which is.

[Katie Cobb]

Ridiculous because that, like, 15 year gap, 14 year gap is exactly the amount of time that my kids have to go back that I listen to my music. So, like, you know, the parents were listening to that. They just weren't listening to their parents music. Like, what happened? Wow, that doesn't make sense.

[Shad Cascone]

Here's my other thought, my deep thought. This is ridiculous. This book, when I think about it, it lives in the same part of my brain and it makes me feel. And the movie kind of played into this as well. Do you remember the Criminal video by Fiona Apple where it's like, weirdly filmed and it's like a bunch of weird kids doing drugs in, like, a basement?

[Katie Cobb]

Okay.

[Shad Cascone]

It kind of. It has the same. Like, I wrote the book. Feels like the criminal video looks to me.

[Katie Cobb]

Okay, I can see that.

[Shad Cascone]

I think it works. Yeah. I don't know why, but that's just kind of like what I have in my head when I think about both of them. Like, they kind of. They. They go hand in hand for me.

[Katie Cobb]

All right, well, they can be fun.

[Shad Cascone]

Deep thoughts with Shad.

[Katie Cobb]

Deep thoughts with Shad. Okay, we have some more deep thoughts coming because there's the leftover colonel. Just a quick question, just a little behind the scenes.

[Shad Cascone]

Do you want to go first this time?

[Katie Cobb]

Oh, I do. I'm excited about my question.

[Shad Cascone]

Oh, Lord, now I'm worried.

[Katie Cobb]

Shad, if they made an after school special about our time in high school, what do you think would have been the most after school special plot point?

[Shad Cascone]

Oh, Jesus, I don't know. Caffeine, like on Saved by the Bell. I don't know. What did we do in high school? I just told you, I never got drunk in high school.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah, it's not drinking, that's for sure.

[Shad Cascone]

I'm trying to think the bad things I did in high school. Sex. I had sex in high school. But, like, I also. I had a lot of freedom in high school. Like, I would. Like, we would go. Kyle and I would go into Phoenix. We lived in Gilbert. It's a suburb. Like, we would drive all the way into the city to go to youth group, like, every Thursday night, where it was like a gay youth group. So it was like my parents were just like, okay, whatever. Be home by dinner, like. Or, like, you know what I mean? Yeah, we we did a lot of things that we probably definitely should have because my parents, they trusted us. I don't know. Sex is the only thing I can think of that I did in high school that could be made into an after school special.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. For me, I was thinking Tigertown. So, like, just the way that it was, like, now we're all gonna go and do, like, group therapy, and then we're gonna, like, tell each other our dark secrets, and I thought you meant.

[Shad Cascone]

Like, Like a vice or something we did that they would have to, like, make an after school special about. You're just talking about, like. Like, what was those after school high school special experience.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

Of our. Oh, well, I mean, I did go to gay youth group every Thursday.

[Katie Cobb]

I mean, I think that's great.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. And this was in, you know, 99. 2000. 2001.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. So, yeah, I. I did do some drinking in high school. I remember a situation where I was sitting by too close to a fire, and I was like, why are my knees so hot? Like, which feels very much like Charlie wanting a milkshake so badly. You know? Like, it's that same vibe. So maybe I could play on that drinking thing.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah, but what's, like, we weren't, like, wasted on the every weekend.

[Katie Cobb]

No, definitely not. No, you.

[Shad Cascone]

I mean, I definitely wasn't. No, you apparently were occasional weekends.

[Katie Cobb]

Everyone's.

[Shad Cascone]

Not to say I didn't, like, have drinks in high school. Like, we would steal a wine cooler from my parents or whatever.

[Katie Cobb]

Your parents drank wine coolers?

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. Mom loves wine coolers. Still little Bartos and James, huh? Hi, Mom.

[Katie Cobb]

Love that.

[Shad Cascone]

First time I got drunk was actually on Midori Sours.

[Katie Cobb]

That's disgusting. What's your question?

[Shad Cascone]

So I have two. Of course you do, because you know how I do. The first one is, if you could do high school all over again, would you?

[Katie Cobb]

I think I would. I liked high school.

[Shad Cascone]

I absolutely would. I loved high school. It was great. But I wouldn't say it was, like, the best years of my life. But, I mean, like, I didn't. The people are like, oh, it was the worst years of my life. That was absolutely not me. Yeah, I would love to do high school again. Fun. It was great. Yeah, it was fun. My other one is, what's your most significant or best memory from high school?

[Katie Cobb]

My most significant or best memory from high school? Oh, gosh. I mean, genuinely, high school was not a bad gig for me at all. So I'd probably go with the orchestra trip that I took senior year to Germany. Yeah, Germany. And Prague. I still love Prague. I just talked about it this past week. I got in trouble for drinking on that trip as well. Because it's Europe. There's no rules. You do whatever. But Volker was pissed. He was like, good thing we're already flying home tomorrow, because otherwise I would fly you home. Like, he was so mad. Yeah. I just loved that trip so much. But, like. Like going to state with swim team or, like, gosh, like, every day in newspaper class. I just loved going to newspaper.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah.

[Katie Cobb]

All of our orchestra concerts with those ridiculous black trash bag dresses and then, like, going out for blizzards afterwards and cold stone.

[Shad Cascone]

High school is great.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah.

[Shad Cascone]

Oh, my God. Cold stone. I love cold stone. I would totally do high school over again.

[Katie Cobb]

What's your. What's your, like, most salient.

[Shad Cascone]

I don't think I have, like, a single one like you. Because high school was great. I can't think of a singular moment.

[Katie Cobb]

Like, I loved going to dances. I loved dances.

[Shad Cascone]

Dances were great. I spent a lot of time on stage because is choir and orchestra. And I think it'd probably have to be one of those two experiences. Like, the music that we played in high school in orchestra was, I mean, stuff you would hear from a symphony play. And it was like, when I think about it now, and it's like, I was part of that and made that music. And it's like, there's also. When you're performing on stage, either choir or orchestra, at the very end of performance, when it's like, you finish the last note and it's that silence before the applause. I could live in that. That's amazing. For some reason that I just love that moment of just silence. Probably one of those.

[Katie Cobb]

Or, you know, you're done with it, you did it, and you're just waiting for, like, now we get to breathe out, like, I love that feeling, too. And to circle back on that, Shad and I still go to see the symphony, and we especially buy tickets for concerts where they are playing music that we played in high school because there is such a great, like, strong nostalgia element to that.

[Shad Cascone]

So I love that the other day I just. I listened to Finlandia just because I could.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes.

[Shad Cascone]

Yes. I was just like, oh, my God, I remember this. But also, so in orchestra, every year for Christmas, we would play Carol the Bells and we could never, ever get it in rehearsal until we got on stage and, like, we'd pull off one performance where it was, like, flawless.

[Katie Cobb]

Yeah. Knock it out for sure.

[Shad Cascone]

Yeah. And I don't know how we ever did it.

[Katie Cobb]

Or sleigh ride. Like every time I think about sleigh.

[Shad Cascone]

Ride, Sleigh ride was the worst.

[Katie Cobb]

It was great for cellos. It was terrible.

[Shad Cascone]

It was great for cellos. I played every other note just pizzicato.

[Katie Cobb]

Alright, that was our discussion of high school and also the perks of being a wallflower, both the book and the movie. We are so glad that you joined us for this. Our show is produced and edited and this time it was a lot of work by Megan Puttivan Evans who can be found on Instagram at most of megansreads.

[Shad Cascone]

Our next episode, in about two months time, will focus on the Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger, published in 2003. We'll watch the movie adaptation from 2009, which is just about to leave HBO Max, but will surely most likely be available to borrow from your local library or could be streaming on another platform.

[Katie Cobb]

By that time or rentable on pretty much any other platform.

[Shad Cascone]

Correct?

[Katie Cobb]

If you want more bookish content, we'd love to have you join us every Monday for the Currently Reading podcast where Meredith Monday Schwartz joins me to talk about everything we've been reading lately. You can find the show on Instagram Currentlyreading Podcast I'm ootes on bookmarks and Meredith is at Meredith Monday Schwartz over there as well.

[Shad Cascone]

You will find me in the Bookish Friends group on Facebook reading posts in my house jiggling over chickely Go face.

[Katie Cobb]

Yes, we cannot wait to chat with you next time on Popcorn in the Pages. Until then, may your popcorn be hot.

[Shad Cascone]

And salty and your book be better than the movie.

[Katie Cobb]

Happy reading Shadow.

[Shad Cascone]

Happy watching Katie.