Currents Podcast, Ep319

Title: Bringing Transparency to Clean Energy Certificates
Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Todd Alexander (Norton Rose Fulbright)
Guest: Ben Gerber, CEO of Clean Counts

Overview

In this episode, Todd Alexander speaks with Ben Gerber, CEO of Clean Counts, a nonprofit registry that issues and tracks Renewable Energy Certificates (RECs) and Renewable Thermal Certificates (RTCs). Their discussion dives into Clean Counts’ efforts to bring transparency, rigor, and innovation to the clean energy attribute market, the challenges in validating certificates, the evolving types of certificates beyond just wind and solar, the impact of shifting policies, and priorities for improving the ecosystem.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Clean Counts: Role and Approach

[00:18–02:27]

• What is Clean Counts?

  • Nonprofit registry providing auditable proof of renewable generation and usage for asset owners and consumers.
  • Tracks energy attribute certificates (EACs) like RECs (Renewable Energy Certificates) and RTCs (Renewable Thermal Certificates).
  • Customers range from big/small utilities to companies substantiating clean energy claims.

• Nonprofit Value Proposition

  • All earnings reinvested into the platform for customer benefit.
  • Not driven by shareholders—instead, focus is on customer needs, innovation, and market transparency.
  • Invests in technical expertise and customer service.

Memorable Quote:
"Unlike a for profit registry, we're not beholden to shareholders. Our focus is really on our customer needs, innovation and building tools that make the clean energy market more transparent and accessible."
—Ben Gerber [01:15]

2. Validating RECs & Data Integrity

[02:27–06:38]

• “Additionality” & Validation Concerns

  • Clean Counts sources generation data directly from RTOs/ISOs like MISO, SPP, and Ontario’s ISO.
  • Uses feasibility analysis—cross-referencing with weather, manual checks, and plans for more weather data integration.
  • Only issues RECs after thorough validation; serves as a "repository of truth."

• Digital Certificates & Market Siloing

  • Certificates are digital, serialized, and stored in user accounts—transferrable between parties.
  • Market remains illiquid and opaque due to silos and reliance on brokers.

Memorable Quote:
"Hopefully your audience knows... you aren't using clean energy unless you own the energy attributes conveyed by these market instruments."
—Ben Gerber [00:50]

3. Barriers to Transparency & Price Discovery

[06:38–07:50]

• Limited Spot Market Functionality
  • While EU markets are moving ahead with electronic spot trading, US markets are slow due to institutional reluctance and confidentiality concerns.

Memorable Quote:
"One thing that we hear a lot is 'well, we want more price transparency but yet we don't want our customers or the counterparties to know about that.' Well, and that's, that's part of the deal."
—Ben Gerber [07:21]

4. Market Growth & Policy Influence

[07:50–11:54]

• Market Expansion

  • Clean Counts’ annual certificate issuance increased from ~70 million to over 200 million; revenue has climbed substantially.
  • North American REC market projected to double in value by 2032 (>$12B).

• State Over Federal Influence

  • Most energy regulation still happens at the state level.
  • States like Minnesota and Colorado are leading, but even Texas is expanding renewables despite regulatory rollbacks.
  • Policy drivers now include international mechanisms (e.g., EU CBAM), not just US policies.

• Voluntary Versus Compliance Markets

  • Trend is flipping: large private consumers are beginning to drive clean energy standards more than state mandates.

Memorable Quote:
"We tend to get lost in the noise from D.C. ...energy, we tend to think about it as being a federal issue, but it's really a state issue."
—Ben Gerber [09:07]

5. Diverse Certificate Types: Beyond Wind & Solar

[11:54–15:24]

• Evolving to EACs (Environmental Attribute Certificates)

  • Clean Counts covers nuclear, pumped hydro, clean fuels (ethanol, ammonia), biomass, green hydrogen, and pollinator-friendly solar alongside traditional wind/solar.

• Innovations in Green Hydrogen and Ammonia

  • Green hydrogen certificate issuance already started.
  • Ammonia as a transport and storage medium for hydrogen—clean ammonia as both fuel and fertilizer is an emerging area.

Memorable Quote:
"We actually had a bunch of our team in town [...] and toured Centerpoint Energy, which I believe is still the largest currently operating green electrolyzer in the United States."
—Ben Gerber [13:30]

6. Emissionality and Hourly Matching Debates

[15:24–18:14]

• Key Concepts Explained:
  • Hourly Matching (24/7 CFE): Matching clean energy production and consumption at the hourly level.
  • Emissionality: Prioritizing new clean generation where it will achieve the greatest emissions reductions.
  • Clean Counts sees itself as a neutral data provider, enabling transparency no matter the standard.

Memorable Quote:
"I've been criticized by both sides as being too in favor of the other and I kind of wear that as a badge of honor... our goal is we're really about the data."
—Ben Gerber [15:49]

7. Top Priorities for System Improvement

[18:14–22:16]

• Ben’s “If I Were King” Wish List:

  1. Standards: Uniform standards for data and certificate issuance.
  2. Data Quality: Improve data quality and timeliness across generation, RTOs, and regulators.
  3. Reduce Data Siloing: Enhance interoperability and data sharing; nonprofit model seen as an enabler.

• Real-World Examples:

  • Accelerated access to MISO data (from 55 days to 14 days post-settlement).
  • Calls out the persistent problem of different authorities reporting conflicting emissions data.

Memorable Quote:
"You can't fix what you can't count. And so we have to get better at standardizing these approaches."
—Ben Gerber [21:42]

8. How to Engage with Clean Counts

[22:16–24:15]

• Getting Involved:
  • Clean Counts doesn’t sell RECs directly but runs a buy/sell list for RTCs given market nascency.
  • Welcomes new accounts, suggestions, collaborations, and feedback via their website and at industry events.
  • Emphasizes their openness and innovation—for example, pioneering certification for pollinator-friendly solar.

Memorable Quote:
"We are the first system to track pollinator friendly solar rec."
—Ben Gerber [23:34]

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• "Unlike a for profit registry, we're not beholden to shareholders. Our focus is really on our customer needs, innovation and building tools that make the clean energy market more transparent and accessible." [01:15]
• "Hopefully your audience knows... you aren't using clean energy unless you own the energy attributes conveyed by these market instruments." [00:50]
• "One thing that we hear a lot is 'well, we want more price transparency but yet we don't want our customers or the counterparties to know about that.'" [07:21]
• "We tend to get lost in the noise from D.C. ...energy, we tend to think about it as being a federal issue, but it's really a state issue." [09:07]
• "You can't fix what you can't count. And so we have to get better at standardizing these approaches." [21:42]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:18] — Clean Counts' role and nonprofit approach
• [03:03] — How Clean Counts validates RECs/RTCs
• [04:53] — Siloed markets, digital certification, challenges to price discovery
• [08:22] — Market growth, state vs. federal policy, projected market size
• [12:12] — New certificate types: nuclear, pumped hydro, green hydrogen, ammonia
• [15:43] — Emissionality vs. hourly matching debates, Clean Counts’ neutral stance
• [18:32] — Improvements needed: standards & data quality
• [22:30] — How to engage with Clean Counts

Summary

This episode offers a detailed, candid look into how Clean Counts is working to bridge the gaps in transparency and integrity for renewable energy markets, responding to evolving technologies, consumer and regulator demands, and global trends. Ben Gerber’s insights highlight both ongoing challenges in data standardization and the exciting innovations on the horizon—making this a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of clean energy certificates.