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[00:00]
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Foreign
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welcome to Currents, a Norton Rose Fulbright podcast. I am your host, Jim Berger. Today I am joined by Mark Taylor and Kim Zhu, co founders of Currents. Sounds the same, but spelled slightly different. Formally known as Sightline Climate. Welcome, Mark and Kim.
[00:21]
A
Excited to be here.
[00:22]
C
Thanks.
[00:22]
B
Could you tell us a little bit about what you do and then I will get into some of the interesting nitty gritty.
[00:29]
A
Yeah, I'm Kim. I can kick off. So I'm the CEO and co founder of Currents, formerly known as Sightline, and we're a market intelligence company tracking the energy in AI space. We started off with a newsletter called ctvc looking at energy and climate innovation. And then over the last seven years we've built out a database looking at a lot of the power data center, as well as innovation assets and technologies that are going to be critical to bringing the power online that we need for AI and for also decarbonization in the long run. So that's a bit about what we do. We also work really closely with about 90 customers, many of whom are banks, investors, energy and utility companies, hyperscalers and developers that are building and financing this energy ecosystem.
[01:18]
B
So you look a lot at the power that is needed to power AI. And with over 100 gigawatts of US data center pipeline planned, I think you say about 60% doesn't survive your credibility framework. So can you tell us a little bit about what separates the 40% that does survive against the 60% that you don't think is credible?
[01:42]
A
Yeah, I can kick off here, Mark, definitely chime in. I think when we look at the data center capacity space, obviously everyone says power is the constraint and that's been kind of our DNA since the start is coming from that energy and power background. And so we really wanted to understand, okay, what are the ingredients needed for a data center to come online. We spoke with developers, Neo clouds, hyperscalers, to really understand what that looks like. Obviously everyone says time to power is the constraint. So that's a framework. We have about eight factors that we use in our framework. Time to power and whether they've announced power. Power secured is two really critical factors. We also look at the developer tier, so we tier one, a lot of the hyperscalers and we kind of tier 5, those that haven't really had any experience developing data centers. We also look at project status, of course, so you know, where is it in terms of whether it's announced, whether it's announced construction or, you know, if it's actually operational. And then we also look at capacity supply Financing and of course, whether or not they have offtake and a tenant secured. One factor that we haven't been tracking but is going to definitely be a critical part of our framework going forward is actually looking at the community sentiment side. We've seen a host of data centers in the last couple months get delayed and many canceled even because of community sentiment, because of rezoning challenges and permitting. And so that's also going to be a pretty critical part of our credibility framework going forward.
[03:21]
B
And you frame this really as, I think a quote, energy hoarding moment. I think because these centers take so much power and it's such an explosive demand center. So can we talk a little bit about that? What's changed from procurement cooperation to this strategic positioning and how does that show up and how deals get structured?
[03:41]
C
That's a. It's a wild moment that we find ourselves in. Like it's kind of a global phenomenon, this energy hoarding, or we've even been calling it the new gold rush. You know, that all these things are happening in the world right now, geopolitical, but also the AI race, industrialization race, all of this stuff to make it such that, you know, in the old days, how people would fix this problem is just build more, you know, and just go out and build. You know, in the 70s, there's the oil crisis and you know, that really resulted in 45 gigawatts of new nuclear in France or it even kicked up the small micro boom in geothermal power in the US went from zero to about 2 gigawatts back then in the 70s. But right now what's happening is that things are hard to build. So the bureaucracy or the closing community acceptance or community public acceptance window is making things harder to build. And so it's created this environment of kind of anxiety, right, where people are going to say, I'm going to get me, get for me and mine and build what I can. And so what the result is is all these different strategies, you know, that we've been seeing for companies to get the power online first and fastest, right? So we talk about fastest megawatt. But like that results in several different ways of doing this, right? Everything from shortcut with gas. You know, that is a strategy we keep hearing about, especially this multiple tens of gigawatts of new gas announcements for data center construction this year, regulatory capture. We can talk more about that. But just making sure you've got the votes in a jurisdiction that will allow you to build ad sweeteners like flexibility or community benefits or things like that and then ultimately just buy the platform. Right? So we heard this first earlier this year with Google buying Intersect Power. But then basically GIP and EQT said you know what, hold my beer and announced the acquisition of or take private of AES. And that trend sort of keeps continuing of people trying to take the power into their own hands and create their own destiny.
[05:48]
B
And as these companies are trying to create their own destiny, I think they are, you know, they're running up against this big backlash of communities. They don't necessarily want the data centers in their backyard. And then the other thing that is everywhere is the increase and costs that retail consumers are absorbing. In March, seven hyperscalers signed a pledge at the White House to absorb their own demand costs. You know, is this real commercial discipline or is it really just putting up a shield against the political backlash, you know, from communities, individuals, politicians?
[06:23]
C
I mean, I've got my answer. I'm not exactly sure Kim and I have talked about this one, but like I don't see any hyperscaler, you know, when come up with a decision of like, hey, this is going to create a challenge for us cost wise or you know, we're going to get this thing built and it's not going to get built. I don't think anybody is going to say like, oh, but the pledge we signed, you know, it's just not going to happen. I think that they're going to do what's in service of getting their facility built regardless of what the. Maybe not regardless, but a little less leaning on the outcome of what that could mean for the consumer.
[06:57]
A
I do think though, like when you look at the prioritization of how those in the data center world are moving, it's definitely speed, speed, speed, costs, climate. And I do think now that it's apparent that community backlash is slowing down speed, I think that is the rationale for them really caring is like you need to almost be a good grid citizen and come off as a good grid citizen in order to have the buy in to be able to develop a data center. The other factor I think is interesting. I also think the kind of correlation between data center buildout and power prices is not always linearly correlated. Right? Like obviously in PJM where you're in a very saturated market, it is pretty correlated with rising rates and that's been studied. I'm here right now in London for London Climate Week and we just talked to the Director General of Infrastructure at off cham, which is essentially UK ferc. And the take here is we haven't had any demand whatsoever because there's been, you know, no industrial growth rates have been 4x that of the US and they actually see data centers as a good thing because it could bring the much needed demand to really help drive rates down in the long run because you have a larger denominator you can distribute across. So I also think, you know, depending on the market, you could see it being a good thing for demand.
[08:25]
B
Is that interaction occurring anywhere in the US because it seems like everywhere I hear is the demand here is just increasing prices and is not looked at the same way as what it looks. Sounds like it's looked at in the
[08:38]
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UK Yeah, I think outside of the US in many regions it's a bit of a different story. Where we've talked to, for example, utilities in Japan that have come to us saying we're not interested in tracking the credibility of data centers, we're interested in trying to attract data centers to Japan, to Europe, to the U.K. i think U.S. generally is a, like we were looking at our, our pipeline. There's about 16 gigawatts of supposedly announced capacity that's supposed to come out in 2026 in the U.S. now again, a lot of that is speculative, but you compare that to Europe and it's about 2 gigawatts and that's like all of Europe. So it's just a. The US is kind of in a league of its own right now, but in other markets I do think it might not have the same effect, at least not in the beginning when they're kind of looking for demand.
[09:28]
C
It also kind of depends where you look. In the US there is a case to be made for like rural co ops to where this could be beneficial for the consumer there, you know, because a lot of rural co ops have people leaving, right. Going to cities, going to other jurisdictions, things like that. And so they're costs for keeping their grid up is going up to cost of maintenance and so therefore it's causing increases in prices or energy costs for the people that live there. Right. And so the idea is that in some of these places a data center could come in, help upgrade the grid and give a tax benefit to the, to the community there and therefore, or thereby decrease the cost for the consumer. I'm not sure if that's fully playing out, but, but it's certainly being talked about.
[10:13]
B
Okay. I want to kind of focus on a couple of these energy hoarding strategies and kind of how they're playing out in the real world. So one is Meta is funding seven new gas plants through Entergy Louisiana. Seven and a half gigawatts into a 14 gigawatt state fleet. So what does the utility channel play look like from a project finance lens? And who really bears the cost risk here?
[10:37]
C
Oh man, great question. And it's crazy what's happening there. The governor put out a statement a couple weeks ago saying like, what I want to say is that there's definitely two sides to this story, right? That the governor put out a statement a couple weeks ago saying like, hey, the teachers in Louisiana are all getting a $50,000 bonus or something to that effect. And who would argue against that, you know, like, okay, yeah, sure. But at the same time, you know, how this thing is getting funded is on paper it says that at least half of the new power plant costs will be covered by meta. Okay, great. But that's over the depreciable life of the plant and that's 15 years. Right, but the plant's lifetime is 30 years. And so Meta is ostensibly only on the hook for about 25% of the cost of the, of this new 7 gigawatt build out. And so that could leave Louisiana consumers and businesses, you know, of which many are, you know, the majors that operate in the region, you know, operating refineries and the like, on the hook for the rest of that cost. And the thing about it is like that Entergy, you know, the utility there, their installed base is 14 gigawatts right now, and this would effectively install another seven. Right. So a substantial increase, I would say it seems to be a challenge or risk for, for the people in Louisiana. But again, it's kind of definitely on both sides. There are people that definitely want this thing. There are definitely people that don't.
[12:04]
B
Okay. Another one is, and Mark, you mentioned this a few minutes ago, the quote, buying the platform, which could be illustrated, I guess by Nextera's move to buy Dominion. And maybe that's more buying the platform than a utility acquisition. So what are your thoughts about what a platform acquisition strategy can unlock that just typical greenfield development can't?
[12:29]
C
I think it's three things, and I'm sure there are more, but I would say three things. Number one is scale. Right. If you're one at a timing projects, you're doing all of this stuff, you know, one at a time. And so it's just more difficult to get the speed and scale that you want. As Kim was saying, you know, speed, speed, speed, cost, clean. But if you own the platform, you can put resources into the projects that are moving quickest. Right. And Spread your bets as you go to essentially get projects done faster and build up the system. The second thing I would say is that it's a system approach, right. Since you're owning that whole platform of transmission, distribution, of flexibility, of generation, you're not just a wind developer or a solar developer or a battery developer with one trick to, to, to play. You have a bag with many tricks, right, that you can use to build, build the system as a system. The third thing I would say is that actually it buys them a toll that if you own the utility, you know that, own that where Data Center Alley is, you're effectively owning a toll on the operators that want to develop there. Right. The developers that want to build data centers in that, that region that's so important for, for compute.
[13:48]
A
Yeah. And on the buying the platform approach, with hyperscalers now kind of going upstream in the value chain, originally was buying PPAs kind of virtually. Now it's physically buying a portfolio of projects. I think Google's almost 5 billion acquisition of Intersect Power here is a really leading indicator. Who knows if others will follow in its footsteps. But we also saw Amazon buy one of pine gates renewables, solar and storage projects that obviously went bankrupt. We think there's actually a ton of opportunity in the interconnection queues today. And we thought there was so much opportunity that we did a whole report on it called the Fastest Megawatt. But the idea is why go looking for net new builds where you have to restart in the interconnection queue, which as we all know takes many, many years, versus going directly into the queues or even looking at existing nuclear geothermal sites that have had some permitting or even existing industrial sites that have that interconnection already. So that I think is what the hyperscalers in this space are realizing as well. And even those that are looking to sell and develop powered land and projects for them is really looking into the cues. And in particular I think SOL and storage in ERCOT has been a pretty massively fast as well as clean and firm, depending on how you build it. Opportunity that we're now seeing some entrepreneurs going into to take.
[15:31]
B
So can you mention the Fastest Megawatt report, which I want to ask a question about? So that report puts ERCOT Solar plus Bess with a signed interconnection agreement as the single fastest path to new capacity. I think you said it's about 27 months. What does this mean for how developers and lenders should be sourcing business in 2026?
[15:53]
A
Yeah, it's a Good question. I mean I think, you know, just buying one solar and storage project doesn't get you to the reliability that, you know, five nines that data centers need. So it's too simplistic to just say okay, like go into ERCOT and just buy up some projects. I do think you again need to take a portfolio approach. We recently talked to Jesse Jenkins at Firma Power and they're taking approach. I don't know if they've done it yet, but what they're looking to do is build essentially a portfolio where they acquire some projects that could be strategic complement one another. I think you also will probably have to add some gas to that as well. But the idea there is, there is opportunity to bring power online that is grid connected in 27 months versus the kind of five to seven year timeframe that we've been hearing. And it can be relatively clean, relatively cheap, relatively fast. It's almost a no brainer. And it also happens to be, you know, where the most data centers are currently getting built today in Texas. Texas is the leading state with data centers. So that's, you know, probably the fastest, most scalable outcome we've seen. And there we also tracked in total about, you know, 16 gigawatts of potential that could come online just in ERCOT alone in the next three years or so. So again it's, it's, it's a, I think it's a massive opportunity but the nuances in how you put together that
[17:23]
B
portfolio and you know, so that's the fastest. There's other near term potential opportunities. For example retiring thermal sites and enhanced geothermal systems at existing geothermal plants. But these barely get any airtime. I think they're around 6 gigawatts of near term capacity. So do either of you have any thoughts of why developers aren't chasing these.
[17:48]
C
This is actually why we started this fastest swing a lot analysis is that one of our analysts was looking at geothermal sites specifically. Right. And looking at how much the plant was producing or the field is producing versus how much it could produce potentially. And then taking that plus looking at the lithology, the geology, all that came up with a short list of projects or geothermal fields that could be upgraded using egs. Right. And it was pretty compelling. I can't remember the exact number, but there was multiple gigawatts of extra capacity that could be found in operating these geothermal sites. The same thing with nuclear. Right. You know, through upgrades and restarts and all of that. But even still, you know, the, the challenge there is that even doing this will take longer than just doing solar plus Bess in ercot. Right. And so if we're looking at fastest megawatt, the conclusion holds, but these are still viable options that people should be looking at.
[18:50]
A
Yeah, And I think the. The benefit to the sort of geothermal and nuclear approach that we're talking about here, and some of the analysis we did is there's a lot of talk in that space about every new technology coming to market now. I think there's like five or six public nuclear companies, mostly going public through SPACs, and a lot of it is talking about it from a tech standpoint. Right. Fervo just IPO'd, which is incredible, and I think an exciting moment for the geothermal industry. But at the end of the day, Fervo is a developer. They're a developer with better technology than what's been done in the past. I think we're gonna have to be looking at geothermal nuclear in the next couple years, really, as a development play, not just as a technology play. And the place to start there is with existing sites that already have, again, that interconnection that have already, in some cases, already have had some operating licenses or partial licenses, especially in the nuclear case. So you're not starting from scratch where it's gonna take at least 10 years to nuclear facility green field. So this, to us is kind of the second step, if you will, on clean baseload power. It's okay now we have the tech, it's all, you know, getting the venture funding and ipoing. How do you actually go out there and get projects done? And so this was almost like a way for us to shortcut, hey, maybe you should look here to where you should start building these projects. And by the way, what's interesting is the nuclear sites that we tracked, a lot of them are in the southeast, whereas a lot of the geothermal sites that we tracked are in the west. And obviously, what we're seeing with solar and storage, I mean, it's everywhere, of course, but a lot of the supply we're seeing is in Texas and in the South. So you're getting actually quite good coverage, at least in the context of the US with a lot of these solutions.
[20:42]
B
All right, I want to touch on off grid, which was supposed to be the speed play, because you're not dealing necessarily with interconnection queues, but, you know, new gas turbines, I've heard three to five years. And, you know, we also have some lenders who won't finance pure off Grid or bridges over two years. So talk a little bit about how this is reshaping, deal structuring.
[21:05]
C
I mean, put simply, I think this was supposed to be, just as you said, the quick solution. But I think people realize it's really hard, right, that when you're off grid, you're actually off grid and no one's coming to save you. Right. So having a grid connection is ridiculously helpful even as the, as the backstop. Right. And so bridge, there's debate out there of whether bridge means bridge, you know, whether these mobile gas turbines and things like that will actually stay on site for the foreseeable, you know, because if you add more capacity and more compute, all that stuff, why would you rip out the existing generation? But even still you're going to want to try to have a grid connection. And so I think what we're seeing is more of a push to make sure you have that security and stability of the grid connection. And I personally am not sure bridge actually means bridge.
[21:59]
A
Yeah, exactly. And I think even for the bridging power solutions we're seeing, obviously there's been a lot of excitement around fuel cells and what Bloom Energy solution can do. We've also been looking at, you know, the primary bridging power tech, I guess is, you know, diesel and gas, Gensense and Wartsilla Ineo, who are manufacturing some of this, some of these bridging power solutions. There are still wait times. We've seen their wait time increase from 25 to about 36 months, both respectively. So it's definitely a faster solution. I mean it's worked in the context of projects like Colossus, but also, you know, it's massively polluting, it's massively noisy and it's also been leading to a lot of the, again, community backlash that we were talking about since the beginning. Definitely a solution for speed, don't get me wrong. But it's a question of, you know, is this a speed now sort of solution versus a long term solution. And I think there's a lot of questions on what actually happens to these assets after the bridging power period. You know, it's, it's an asset that no one quite knows what they're going to do with.
[23:10]
B
So let's talk a little bit about what's coming. FERC just put out some notices and we have SPPs Hill framework. So what does that tell us about where we think the national rules are headed and what project finance practitioners will be doing or should be doing now to prepare?
[23:28]
A
Yeah, I Think, you know, Merck I think actually has done quite a good job here. They, you know, submitted this anoper a notice of proposed rulemaking about half a year ago and they got thousands and thousands of comments from anyone, everyone in the value chain. And they put out a couple orders. I think at a high level you can see how they're really prioritizing large loads and how they're thinking about a couple of core areas that are relevant for data centers. One is flexible connection. So they've specifically said, and of course it's ferc, right? So they kind of have to mandate it through the actual states and ISOs, RTOs, but they've said that flexible connections should be considered and prioritized. So having a little bit of ability to curtail during peak loads is something that can enable a lot more capacity to come online faster. They've also talked about designing something specifically for behind the meter or some of these bridging power solutions we've talked about, which I think is important to at least have a structure or contract around. And then they've also talked about essentially requiring states, PUCs, ISOs, RTOs to have a better large load tariff in place designed for data centers. And I think this isn't the end, this is really the start. There's I think 60 days for the ISOs and RTOs to really respond. But this will really tell us how the market is going to design the rules for how large loads design their power system. So if you're in project finance, if you're a developer looking to build out powering models, power projects for data centers and work with data centers, this is kind of your roadmap or your rulebook, if you will, of course, how to play. And the next step is going to be seeing what that looks like, you know, state by state, region by region. But this kind of sort of sets the stage.
[25:29]
C
Now just to tack onto that, I think like there's another part of this, this ruling or this, this Notice that in 30 days the ISOs and RTOs have to put out a generation adequacy, you know, assessment. Can they serve this load that would be incoming. And so I think like we've been doing all this talk about, you know, speed to power, fastest megawatt, things like that. And looking at the Internet connection queues, I think we'll start in 30 days. We'll see this honest assessment. I guess that's what it's 24th of June now, so you know, mid July, July 18th is when the notice came out. So we'll start to see whether the utility, excuse me, the ISOs and RTOs think that they will have the generation sufficient to meet this load. And I think it'll be really telling of where they actually think they are and be able to meet it.
[26:16]
B
All right, last question. 13 gigawatts of projects flipped to delay this past quarter, including Fermi's hypergrid campus. So when do we see hard evidence of which announced megaprojects make it and what should creditors and equity be watching for?
[26:33]
A
I think it kind of comes full circle to where we started the conversation, funnily enough, which is really on those nine credibility factors we talked about. I won't spell them all out again, but I think in sort of priority order, have they secured, can they secure power? Do they have a tenant or offtake secured? That was kind of the downfall, if you will, of the Fermi America project. They didn't have a signed tenant for, I think it was a 7 gigawatt project. And I think third as well is obviously community sentiment, community backlash. I think we're seeing that now being one of the rising causes of delays, especially in the US 70% of the US population are anti data centers. So harder and harder to get big massive data centers now built. So I think those are a couple of the key factors. But again, it comes down to, as everyone knows in this space, you have to have the offtake, you have to have the power, you have to have the supply, the GPUs, the power equipment secured. Those are also seeing many, many long lead times. So there's kind of this recipe of ingredients that need to come together at the right size at the right time with the right sous chefs, if you will, if I really exaggerate this analogy, who are experienced in actually making that part of the recipe. So I think that's the key thing here. And that's really how we do our analysis in this space and how we look at the space is assessing each and every data center on those, on those core ingredients.
[28:07]
C
Yeah, I just think we're going to see a lot more of that as well. That, you know, there's the Fermi America example, there's also OpenAI leaving the Stargate Abilene project earlier this year. And so like the old way of thinking or up to now has been like, hey, it's got this tenant, this core tenant who is credit worthy. All of that, if they are able to pick up and run. The project has to survive on its own merits. Right. So it's all those things Kim mentioned. But it has to be, you know, economical on its own to be able to get financing, get through the board, through the door and get billed. So, yeah, that's what we'll be watching for.
[28:41]
B
All right. I think we're still in the early innings, so it's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out. Mark and Kim from Currents, thank you very much for your time.
[28:49]
C
Thanks, Jim.
[28:50]
A
Thank you, Jim from Currents.
[28:55]
B
You can find us online at www.projectfinance.law or send us an email at currentsortonrosefullbright.com Please rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your preferred podcast app. Our show today was produced by Emily Rogers.
[29:11]
C
Stay ahead of the Currents.

Summary6 min read

Podcast Summary: Currents – Ep359: The Race to Power AI Data Centers

Date: August 6, 2026
Host: Jim Berger (Norton Rose Fulbright)
Guests: Mark Taylor and Kim Zhu, Co-founders of Currents

Overview

This episode dives deep into the explosive growth, power challenges, and project finance dynamics behind the data center infrastructure powering the new age of AI. Host Jim Berger interviews Mark Taylor and Kim Zhu—experts tracking the intersection of energy, innovation, and AI—to unpack the “energy hoarding” mentality sweeping the sector, the credibility of massive new data center projects, the interplay with local communities, and the implications for financiers, developers, and regulators.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Powering AI: Market Trends and Project Credibility

Currents' Focus: Tracks power needs for data centers and the assets/tech enabling both decarbonization and AI progress.
Credibility Filtering: Of the 100+ GW US data center pipeline, only ~40% are deemed credible by Currents’ 8-factor framework—mainly power procurement, developer experience, project status, financing, and (increasingly) community sentiment.
- "Time to power and whether they've announced power—power secured—is two really critical factors." — Kim Zhu [01:50]
- Addition of community sentiment to framework due to recent project delays from rezoning and permitting challenges.

2. "Energy Hoarding": The New Gold Rush

The Dynamic Shift: Companies now compete aggressively for power, marking a shift from cooperative procurement to strategic acquisition and “energy hoarding.”
- "It's created this environment of kind of anxiety, right, where people are going to say, I'm going to get for me and mine and build what I can." — Mark Taylor [04:23]
Strategies to Secure Power:
- Shortcuts with new gas plants (“shortcut with gas”).
- Regulatory capture — getting favorable local votes.
- Community ad sweeteners (economic and social benefits).
- Full platform acquisitions (utilities, developers).

3. Community Backlash and Cost Dynamics

Backlash Rising: Community opposition slows or cancels projects, now regarded as a critical constraint.
Cost Allocation: Retail consumers often bear hidden long-term costs, despite high-profile pledges from hyperscalers.
- "Speed, speed, speed, costs, climate. And I do think now that it's apparent that community backlash is slowing down speed, I think that is the rationale for them really caring..." — Kim Zhu [06:57]
Market Variations: In the US, new demand can increase consumer costs, whereas in Europe/Japan attracting data centers helps lower existing costs by spreading them across a larger user base.
- "A data center could come in, help upgrade the grid and give a tax benefit... and... decrease the cost for the consumer." — Mark Taylor [09:27]

4. Project Finance Case Studies

a. Meta & Entergy Louisiana (Gas Plant Build-out)

Structure: Meta funds 7.5 GW of new generation, covering half the upfront cost, but over 15 out of 30-year plant lifespan, meaning Louisiana ratepayers will absorb much of the remaining cost.
- "Meta is ostensibly only on the hook for about 25% of the cost." — Mark Taylor [11:15]

b. Acquisition/‘Buying the Platform’ Strategies

Examples: Google’s Intersect Power acquisition; NextEra’s deal with Dominion; Amazon’s acquisition out of bankruptcy.
- "If you own the platform, you can put resources into the projects that are moving quickest... you have a bag with many tricks, right, that you can use to build, build the system as a system." — Mark Taylor [13:11]
Key Advantages:
1. Speed & scale
2. Holistic system development (not just “one-trick” technology)
3. Ownership of “toll” rights in strategic locations

c. Interconnection Queue Arbitrage

Fastest Route: ERCOT Solar+Battery with signed interconnection is ~27 months to capacity, versus much longer for greenfield development.
- "Why go looking for net new builds... versus going directly into the queues or even looking at existing nuclear geothermal sites..." — Kim Zhu [14:24]

5. Alternatives & Bottlenecks

Retiring Thermal Sites/Geothermal Upgrades: Opportunities exist (6GW near-term) but lag behind in speed compared to ERCOT solar+battery.
- "Even doing this will take longer than just doing solar plus BESS in ERCOT. Right. And so if we're looking at fastest megawatt, the conclusion holds, but these are still viable options..." — Mark Taylor [18:23]
Off-Grid Solutions: In theory offer speed, yet in practice face long delivery times, lender reluctance, operational risk, and local opposition.
- "When you're off grid, you're actually off grid and no one's coming to save you... I personally am not sure bridge actually means bridge." — Mark Taylor [21:12]

6. Regulatory Evolution and FERC’s New Mandates

FERC’s New Framework: Accelerates timelines for grid connection, requires flexible load contracts, and demands “large load tariffs” designed for data centers.
- "This is kind of your roadmap or your rulebook, if you will, of course, how to play." — Kim Zhu [24:46]
Generation Adequacy Reporting: ISO/RTOs have 30 days to assess whether incoming loads can be served, marking an era of more honest, transparent planning.
- "We'll see this honest assessment... whether the ISOs and RTOs think that they will have the generation sufficient to meet this load." — Mark Taylor [25:29]

7. Signs of Slowdown: Delays and Cancellations

Delays: 13 GW of projects delayed last quarter. “Megaprojects” increasingly struggling with offtake contracts, power procurement, and especially community sentiment.
- "70% of the US population are anti data centers. So harder and harder to get big massive data centers now built." — Kim Zhu [27:21]
Viability: The core recipe for project viability remains: offtake, power, secured supply, and experienced developers.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"It's kind of a global phenomenon, this energy hoarding, or we've even been calling it the new gold rush..."
— Mark Taylor [03:42]
"You need to almost be a good grid citizen... in order to have the buy in to be able to develop a data center."
— Kim Zhu [07:07]
"If you own the platform, you can put resources into the projects that are moving quickest... you have a bag with many tricks..."
— Mark Taylor [13:11]
"Even doing this [geothermal/nuclear upgrades] will take longer than just doing solar plus BESS in ERCOT."
— Mark Taylor [18:23]
"When you're off grid, you're actually off grid and no one's coming to save you... I personally am not sure bridge actually means bridge."
— Mark Taylor [21:12]
"There’s kind of this recipe of ingredients that need to come together at the right size at the right time with the right sous chefs, if I really exaggerate this analogy..."
— Kim Zhu [27:02]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[01:17] – Currents’ mission, dataset, and customer base
[01:42] – The "credibility" framework for data center projects
[03:20] – Energy hoarding: origins and new rush for power
[06:23] – Hyperscaler pledges and community backlash
[10:36] – Meta’s gas plant build-out in Louisiana, risks/costs
[12:28] – “Buying the platform” as a speed/scale strategy
[15:31] – “Fastest Megawatt” report findings for ERCOT solar+BESS
[17:48] – Geothermal/nuclear upgrade opportunities & constraints
[20:41] – Off-grid solutions: challenges in deal structure
[23:10] – FERC notices and future rulemaking; what it means for finance
[26:32] – Project delays: core criteria for project survival

Takeaways for Finance and Infrastructure Professionals

Speed, grid access, and community alignment are now as critical as capital or technology.
Due diligence must weigh community sentiment and regulatory windows, not just offtake and permits.
Platform acquisition can shortcut development timelines, but only if the “bag of tricks” includes siting, politics, and grid expertise.
Despite the AI gold rush, delayed/cancelled projects are rising, with only the most credible and community-accepted moving forward.

Loading summary

Transcript40 lines

[00:00]
A
Foreign
[00:04]
B
welcome to Currents, a Norton Rose Fulbright podcast. I am your host, Jim Berger. Today I am joined by Mark Taylor and Kim Zhu, co founders of Currents. Sounds the same, but spelled slightly different. Formally known as Sightline Climate. Welcome, Mark and Kim.
[00:21]
A
Excited to be here.
[00:22]
C
Thanks.
[00:22]
B
Could you tell us a little bit about what you do and then I will get into some of the interesting nitty gritty.
[00:29]
A
Yeah, I'm Kim. I can kick off. So I'm the CEO and co founder of Currents, formerly known as Sightline, and we're a market intelligence company tracking the energy in AI space. We started off with a newsletter called ctvc looking at energy and climate innovation. And then over the last seven years we've built out a database looking at a lot of the power data center, as well as innovation assets and technologies that are going to be critical to bringing the power online that we need for AI and for also decarbonization in the long run. So that's a bit about what we do. We also work really closely with about 90 customers, many of whom are banks, investors, energy and utility companies, hyperscalers and developers that are building and financing this energy ecosystem.
[01:18]
B
So you look a lot at the power that is needed to power AI. And with over 100 gigawatts of US data center pipeline planned, I think you say about 60% doesn't survive your credibility framework. So can you tell us a little bit about what separates the 40% that does survive against the 60% that you don't think is credible?
[01:42]
A
Yeah, I can kick off here, Mark, definitely chime in. I think when we look at the data center capacity space, obviously everyone says power is the constraint and that's been kind of our DNA since the start is coming from that energy and power background. And so we really wanted to understand, okay, what are the ingredients needed for a data center to come online. We spoke with developers, Neo clouds, hyperscalers, to really understand what that looks like. Obviously everyone says time to power is the constraint. So that's a framework. We have about eight factors that we use in our framework. Time to power and whether they've announced power. Power secured is two really critical factors. We also look at the developer tier, so we tier one, a lot of the hyperscalers and we kind of tier 5, those that haven't really had any experience developing data centers. We also look at project status, of course, so you know, where is it in terms of whether it's announced, whether it's announced construction or, you know, if it's actually operational. And then we also look at capacity supply Financing and of course, whether or not they have offtake and a tenant secured. One factor that we haven't been tracking but is going to definitely be a critical part of our framework going forward is actually looking at the community sentiment side. We've seen a host of data centers in the last couple months get delayed and many canceled even because of community sentiment, because of rezoning challenges and permitting. And so that's also going to be a pretty critical part of our credibility framework going forward.
[03:21]
B
And you frame this really as, I think a quote, energy hoarding moment. I think because these centers take so much power and it's such an explosive demand center. So can we talk a little bit about that? What's changed from procurement cooperation to this strategic positioning and how does that show up and how deals get structured?
[03:41]
C
That's a. It's a wild moment that we find ourselves in. Like it's kind of a global phenomenon, this energy hoarding, or we've even been calling it the new gold rush. You know, that all these things are happening in the world right now, geopolitical, but also the AI race, industrialization race, all of this stuff to make it such that, you know, in the old days, how people would fix this problem is just build more, you know, and just go out and build. You know, in the 70s, there's the oil crisis and you know, that really resulted in 45 gigawatts of new nuclear in France or it even kicked up the small micro boom in geothermal power in the US went from zero to about 2 gigawatts back then in the 70s. But right now what's happening is that things are hard to build. So the bureaucracy or the closing community acceptance or community public acceptance window is making things harder to build. And so it's created this environment of kind of anxiety, right, where people are going to say, I'm going to get me, get for me and mine and build what I can. And so what the result is is all these different strategies, you know, that we've been seeing for companies to get the power online first and fastest, right? So we talk about fastest megawatt. But like that results in several different ways of doing this, right? Everything from shortcut with gas. You know, that is a strategy we keep hearing about, especially this multiple tens of gigawatts of new gas announcements for data center construction this year, regulatory capture. We can talk more about that. But just making sure you've got the votes in a jurisdiction that will allow you to build ad sweeteners like flexibility or community benefits or things like that and then ultimately just buy the platform. Right? So we heard this first earlier this year with Google buying Intersect Power. But then basically GIP and EQT said you know what, hold my beer and announced the acquisition of or take private of AES. And that trend sort of keeps continuing of people trying to take the power into their own hands and create their own destiny.
[05:48]
B
And as these companies are trying to create their own destiny, I think they are, you know, they're running up against this big backlash of communities. They don't necessarily want the data centers in their backyard. And then the other thing that is everywhere is the increase and costs that retail consumers are absorbing. In March, seven hyperscalers signed a pledge at the White House to absorb their own demand costs. You know, is this real commercial discipline or is it really just putting up a shield against the political backlash, you know, from communities, individuals, politicians?
[06:23]
C
I mean, I've got my answer. I'm not exactly sure Kim and I have talked about this one, but like I don't see any hyperscaler, you know, when come up with a decision of like, hey, this is going to create a challenge for us cost wise or you know, we're going to get this thing built and it's not going to get built. I don't think anybody is going to say like, oh, but the pledge we signed, you know, it's just not going to happen. I think that they're going to do what's in service of getting their facility built regardless of what the. Maybe not regardless, but a little less leaning on the outcome of what that could mean for the consumer.
[06:57]
A
I do think though, like when you look at the prioritization of how those in the data center world are moving, it's definitely speed, speed, speed, costs, climate. And I do think now that it's apparent that community backlash is slowing down speed, I think that is the rationale for them really caring is like you need to almost be a good grid citizen and come off as a good grid citizen in order to have the buy in to be able to develop a data center. The other factor I think is interesting. I also think the kind of correlation between data center buildout and power prices is not always linearly correlated. Right? Like obviously in PJM where you're in a very saturated market, it is pretty correlated with rising rates and that's been studied. I'm here right now in London for London Climate Week and we just talked to the Director General of Infrastructure at off cham, which is essentially UK ferc. And the take here is we haven't had any demand whatsoever because there's been, you know, no industrial growth rates have been 4x that of the US and they actually see data centers as a good thing because it could bring the much needed demand to really help drive rates down in the long run because you have a larger denominator you can distribute across. So I also think, you know, depending on the market, you could see it being a good thing for demand.
[08:25]
B
Is that interaction occurring anywhere in the US because it seems like everywhere I hear is the demand here is just increasing prices and is not looked at the same way as what it looks. Sounds like it's looked at in the
[08:38]
A
UK Yeah, I think outside of the US in many regions it's a bit of a different story. Where we've talked to, for example, utilities in Japan that have come to us saying we're not interested in tracking the credibility of data centers, we're interested in trying to attract data centers to Japan, to Europe, to the U.K. i think U.S. generally is a, like we were looking at our, our pipeline. There's about 16 gigawatts of supposedly announced capacity that's supposed to come out in 2026 in the U.S. now again, a lot of that is speculative, but you compare that to Europe and it's about 2 gigawatts and that's like all of Europe. So it's just a. The US is kind of in a league of its own right now, but in other markets I do think it might not have the same effect, at least not in the beginning when they're kind of looking for demand.
[09:28]
C
It also kind of depends where you look. In the US there is a case to be made for like rural co ops to where this could be beneficial for the consumer there, you know, because a lot of rural co ops have people leaving, right. Going to cities, going to other jurisdictions, things like that. And so they're costs for keeping their grid up is going up to cost of maintenance and so therefore it's causing increases in prices or energy costs for the people that live there. Right. And so the idea is that in some of these places a data center could come in, help upgrade the grid and give a tax benefit to the, to the community there and therefore, or thereby decrease the cost for the consumer. I'm not sure if that's fully playing out, but, but it's certainly being talked about.
[10:13]
B
Okay. I want to kind of focus on a couple of these energy hoarding strategies and kind of how they're playing out in the real world. So one is Meta is funding seven new gas plants through Entergy Louisiana. Seven and a half gigawatts into a 14 gigawatt state fleet. So what does the utility channel play look like from a project finance lens? And who really bears the cost risk here?
[10:37]
C
Oh man, great question. And it's crazy what's happening there. The governor put out a statement a couple weeks ago saying like, what I want to say is that there's definitely two sides to this story, right? That the governor put out a statement a couple weeks ago saying like, hey, the teachers in Louisiana are all getting a $50,000 bonus or something to that effect. And who would argue against that, you know, like, okay, yeah, sure. But at the same time, you know, how this thing is getting funded is on paper it says that at least half of the new power plant costs will be covered by meta. Okay, great. But that's over the depreciable life of the plant and that's 15 years. Right, but the plant's lifetime is 30 years. And so Meta is ostensibly only on the hook for about 25% of the cost of the, of this new 7 gigawatt build out. And so that could leave Louisiana consumers and businesses, you know, of which many are, you know, the majors that operate in the region, you know, operating refineries and the like, on the hook for the rest of that cost. And the thing about it is like that Entergy, you know, the utility there, their installed base is 14 gigawatts right now, and this would effectively install another seven. Right. So a substantial increase, I would say it seems to be a challenge or risk for, for the people in Louisiana. But again, it's kind of definitely on both sides. There are people that definitely want this thing. There are definitely people that don't.
[12:04]
B
Okay. Another one is, and Mark, you mentioned this a few minutes ago, the quote, buying the platform, which could be illustrated, I guess by Nextera's move to buy Dominion. And maybe that's more buying the platform than a utility acquisition. So what are your thoughts about what a platform acquisition strategy can unlock that just typical greenfield development can't?
[12:29]
C
I think it's three things, and I'm sure there are more, but I would say three things. Number one is scale. Right. If you're one at a timing projects, you're doing all of this stuff, you know, one at a time. And so it's just more difficult to get the speed and scale that you want. As Kim was saying, you know, speed, speed, speed, cost, clean. But if you own the platform, you can put resources into the projects that are moving quickest. Right. And Spread your bets as you go to essentially get projects done faster and build up the system. The second thing I would say is that it's a system approach, right. Since you're owning that whole platform of transmission, distribution, of flexibility, of generation, you're not just a wind developer or a solar developer or a battery developer with one trick to, to, to play. You have a bag with many tricks, right, that you can use to build, build the system as a system. The third thing I would say is that actually it buys them a toll that if you own the utility, you know that, own that where Data Center Alley is, you're effectively owning a toll on the operators that want to develop there. Right. The developers that want to build data centers in that, that region that's so important for, for compute.
[13:48]
A
Yeah. And on the buying the platform approach, with hyperscalers now kind of going upstream in the value chain, originally was buying PPAs kind of virtually. Now it's physically buying a portfolio of projects. I think Google's almost 5 billion acquisition of Intersect Power here is a really leading indicator. Who knows if others will follow in its footsteps. But we also saw Amazon buy one of pine gates renewables, solar and storage projects that obviously went bankrupt. We think there's actually a ton of opportunity in the interconnection queues today. And we thought there was so much opportunity that we did a whole report on it called the Fastest Megawatt. But the idea is why go looking for net new builds where you have to restart in the interconnection queue, which as we all know takes many, many years, versus going directly into the queues or even looking at existing nuclear geothermal sites that have had some permitting or even existing industrial sites that have that interconnection already. So that I think is what the hyperscalers in this space are realizing as well. And even those that are looking to sell and develop powered land and projects for them is really looking into the cues. And in particular I think SOL and storage in ERCOT has been a pretty massively fast as well as clean and firm, depending on how you build it. Opportunity that we're now seeing some entrepreneurs going into to take.
[15:31]
B
So can you mention the Fastest Megawatt report, which I want to ask a question about? So that report puts ERCOT Solar plus Bess with a signed interconnection agreement as the single fastest path to new capacity. I think you said it's about 27 months. What does this mean for how developers and lenders should be sourcing business in 2026?
[15:53]
A
Yeah, it's a Good question. I mean I think, you know, just buying one solar and storage project doesn't get you to the reliability that, you know, five nines that data centers need. So it's too simplistic to just say okay, like go into ERCOT and just buy up some projects. I do think you again need to take a portfolio approach. We recently talked to Jesse Jenkins at Firma Power and they're taking approach. I don't know if they've done it yet, but what they're looking to do is build essentially a portfolio where they acquire some projects that could be strategic complement one another. I think you also will probably have to add some gas to that as well. But the idea there is, there is opportunity to bring power online that is grid connected in 27 months versus the kind of five to seven year timeframe that we've been hearing. And it can be relatively clean, relatively cheap, relatively fast. It's almost a no brainer. And it also happens to be, you know, where the most data centers are currently getting built today in Texas. Texas is the leading state with data centers. So that's, you know, probably the fastest, most scalable outcome we've seen. And there we also tracked in total about, you know, 16 gigawatts of potential that could come online just in ERCOT alone in the next three years or so. So again it's, it's, it's a, I think it's a massive opportunity but the nuances in how you put together that
[17:23]
B
portfolio and you know, so that's the fastest. There's other near term potential opportunities. For example retiring thermal sites and enhanced geothermal systems at existing geothermal plants. But these barely get any airtime. I think they're around 6 gigawatts of near term capacity. So do either of you have any thoughts of why developers aren't chasing these.
[17:48]
C
This is actually why we started this fastest swing a lot analysis is that one of our analysts was looking at geothermal sites specifically. Right. And looking at how much the plant was producing or the field is producing versus how much it could produce potentially. And then taking that plus looking at the lithology, the geology, all that came up with a short list of projects or geothermal fields that could be upgraded using egs. Right. And it was pretty compelling. I can't remember the exact number, but there was multiple gigawatts of extra capacity that could be found in operating these geothermal sites. The same thing with nuclear. Right. You know, through upgrades and restarts and all of that. But even still, you know, the, the challenge there is that even doing this will take longer than just doing solar plus Bess in ercot. Right. And so if we're looking at fastest megawatt, the conclusion holds, but these are still viable options that people should be looking at.
[18:50]
A
Yeah, And I think the. The benefit to the sort of geothermal and nuclear approach that we're talking about here, and some of the analysis we did is there's a lot of talk in that space about every new technology coming to market now. I think there's like five or six public nuclear companies, mostly going public through SPACs, and a lot of it is talking about it from a tech standpoint. Right. Fervo just IPO'd, which is incredible, and I think an exciting moment for the geothermal industry. But at the end of the day, Fervo is a developer. They're a developer with better technology than what's been done in the past. I think we're gonna have to be looking at geothermal nuclear in the next couple years, really, as a development play, not just as a technology play. And the place to start there is with existing sites that already have, again, that interconnection that have already, in some cases, already have had some operating licenses or partial licenses, especially in the nuclear case. So you're not starting from scratch where it's gonna take at least 10 years to nuclear facility green field. So this, to us is kind of the second step, if you will, on clean baseload power. It's okay now we have the tech, it's all, you know, getting the venture funding and ipoing. How do you actually go out there and get projects done? And so this was almost like a way for us to shortcut, hey, maybe you should look here to where you should start building these projects. And by the way, what's interesting is the nuclear sites that we tracked, a lot of them are in the southeast, whereas a lot of the geothermal sites that we tracked are in the west. And obviously, what we're seeing with solar and storage, I mean, it's everywhere, of course, but a lot of the supply we're seeing is in Texas and in the South. So you're getting actually quite good coverage, at least in the context of the US with a lot of these solutions.
[20:42]
B
All right, I want to touch on off grid, which was supposed to be the speed play, because you're not dealing necessarily with interconnection queues, but, you know, new gas turbines, I've heard three to five years. And, you know, we also have some lenders who won't finance pure off Grid or bridges over two years. So talk a little bit about how this is reshaping, deal structuring.
[21:05]
C
I mean, put simply, I think this was supposed to be, just as you said, the quick solution. But I think people realize it's really hard, right, that when you're off grid, you're actually off grid and no one's coming to save you. Right. So having a grid connection is ridiculously helpful even as the, as the backstop. Right. And so bridge, there's debate out there of whether bridge means bridge, you know, whether these mobile gas turbines and things like that will actually stay on site for the foreseeable, you know, because if you add more capacity and more compute, all that stuff, why would you rip out the existing generation? But even still you're going to want to try to have a grid connection. And so I think what we're seeing is more of a push to make sure you have that security and stability of the grid connection. And I personally am not sure bridge actually means bridge.
[21:59]
A
Yeah, exactly. And I think even for the bridging power solutions we're seeing, obviously there's been a lot of excitement around fuel cells and what Bloom Energy solution can do. We've also been looking at, you know, the primary bridging power tech, I guess is, you know, diesel and gas, Gensense and Wartsilla Ineo, who are manufacturing some of this, some of these bridging power solutions. There are still wait times. We've seen their wait time increase from 25 to about 36 months, both respectively. So it's definitely a faster solution. I mean it's worked in the context of projects like Colossus, but also, you know, it's massively polluting, it's massively noisy and it's also been leading to a lot of the, again, community backlash that we were talking about since the beginning. Definitely a solution for speed, don't get me wrong. But it's a question of, you know, is this a speed now sort of solution versus a long term solution. And I think there's a lot of questions on what actually happens to these assets after the bridging power period. You know, it's, it's an asset that no one quite knows what they're going to do with.
[23:10]
B
So let's talk a little bit about what's coming. FERC just put out some notices and we have SPPs Hill framework. So what does that tell us about where we think the national rules are headed and what project finance practitioners will be doing or should be doing now to prepare?
[23:28]
A
Yeah, I Think, you know, Merck I think actually has done quite a good job here. They, you know, submitted this anoper a notice of proposed rulemaking about half a year ago and they got thousands and thousands of comments from anyone, everyone in the value chain. And they put out a couple orders. I think at a high level you can see how they're really prioritizing large loads and how they're thinking about a couple of core areas that are relevant for data centers. One is flexible connection. So they've specifically said, and of course it's ferc, right? So they kind of have to mandate it through the actual states and ISOs, RTOs, but they've said that flexible connections should be considered and prioritized. So having a little bit of ability to curtail during peak loads is something that can enable a lot more capacity to come online faster. They've also talked about designing something specifically for behind the meter or some of these bridging power solutions we've talked about, which I think is important to at least have a structure or contract around. And then they've also talked about essentially requiring states, PUCs, ISOs, RTOs to have a better large load tariff in place designed for data centers. And I think this isn't the end, this is really the start. There's I think 60 days for the ISOs and RTOs to really respond. But this will really tell us how the market is going to design the rules for how large loads design their power system. So if you're in project finance, if you're a developer looking to build out powering models, power projects for data centers and work with data centers, this is kind of your roadmap or your rulebook, if you will, of course, how to play. And the next step is going to be seeing what that looks like, you know, state by state, region by region. But this kind of sort of sets the stage.
[25:29]
C
Now just to tack onto that, I think like there's another part of this, this ruling or this, this Notice that in 30 days the ISOs and RTOs have to put out a generation adequacy, you know, assessment. Can they serve this load that would be incoming. And so I think like we've been doing all this talk about, you know, speed to power, fastest megawatt, things like that. And looking at the Internet connection queues, I think we'll start in 30 days. We'll see this honest assessment. I guess that's what it's 24th of June now, so you know, mid July, July 18th is when the notice came out. So we'll start to see whether the utility, excuse me, the ISOs and RTOs think that they will have the generation sufficient to meet this load. And I think it'll be really telling of where they actually think they are and be able to meet it.
[26:16]
B
All right, last question. 13 gigawatts of projects flipped to delay this past quarter, including Fermi's hypergrid campus. So when do we see hard evidence of which announced megaprojects make it and what should creditors and equity be watching for?
[26:33]
A
I think it kind of comes full circle to where we started the conversation, funnily enough, which is really on those nine credibility factors we talked about. I won't spell them all out again, but I think in sort of priority order, have they secured, can they secure power? Do they have a tenant or offtake secured? That was kind of the downfall, if you will, of the Fermi America project. They didn't have a signed tenant for, I think it was a 7 gigawatt project. And I think third as well is obviously community sentiment, community backlash. I think we're seeing that now being one of the rising causes of delays, especially in the US 70% of the US population are anti data centers. So harder and harder to get big massive data centers now built. So I think those are a couple of the key factors. But again, it comes down to, as everyone knows in this space, you have to have the offtake, you have to have the power, you have to have the supply, the GPUs, the power equipment secured. Those are also seeing many, many long lead times. So there's kind of this recipe of ingredients that need to come together at the right size at the right time with the right sous chefs, if you will, if I really exaggerate this analogy, who are experienced in actually making that part of the recipe. So I think that's the key thing here. And that's really how we do our analysis in this space and how we look at the space is assessing each and every data center on those, on those core ingredients.
[28:07]
C
Yeah, I just think we're going to see a lot more of that as well. That, you know, there's the Fermi America example, there's also OpenAI leaving the Stargate Abilene project earlier this year. And so like the old way of thinking or up to now has been like, hey, it's got this tenant, this core tenant who is credit worthy. All of that, if they are able to pick up and run. The project has to survive on its own merits. Right. So it's all those things Kim mentioned. But it has to be, you know, economical on its own to be able to get financing, get through the board, through the door and get billed. So, yeah, that's what we'll be watching for.
[28:41]
B
All right. I think we're still in the early innings, so it's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out. Mark and Kim from Currents, thank you very much for your time.
[28:49]
C
Thanks, Jim.
[28:50]
A
Thank you, Jim from Currents.
[28:55]
B
You can find us online at www.projectfinance.law or send us an email at currentsortonrosefullbright.com Please rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your preferred podcast app. Our show today was produced by Emily Rogers.
[29:11]
C
Stay ahead of the Currents.